QM Forum
The Quran => General Discussions => Topic started by: Zack on March 31, 2016, 08:38:24 PM
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Hello all,
Well here it is, something that has been disturbing me for a while with this forum. There seems to be a regular theme of referring to the Qur'an only, and not to other material. That is fine, but there are a few major problems....
a) Are the words of the Qur'an to be taken literally, with each instruction having universal and eternal application?
OR
b) Was the Qur'an revealed in a historical context, and responding to that context? In other words, the Qur'anic text, such as the war verses, polemical verses, ethical and legal verses... cannot really be understood without placing it in its cultural context. With that, with changing cultural contexts, the application of segments of the Qur'an is no longer relevant for today!
I believe in (b). The ironic thing is that there is a massive movement in revising the history of Islam, de-emphasizing classical Islamic traditions, and reconstructing the context of the Quran. However for many Qur'anists, (maybe I totally misunderstand the Quranist position) just following the text is enough. This is actually dangerous. In the end, even non-Muslims above (b) can have a better understanding of the message of the Qur'an than Quranists!
Anyway I will leave it there for now, hopefully this makes sense!
Wasalam
Zack
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Salamun Alaikum,
In my view, number a is correct. Because Quran is not time-bound, Quran uses examples for proper realization of readers. In that sense, historical verses are included for pointing what really were happened & why. This doesn't mean you're gonna have to fight with sword to these days in a war. Quran instructed us to use our intellect and common sense to grasp the main theme, not robotic calculations or sentence to compare which word is used for how many times & for what purpose. This is the main problem of Quranists, they don't take Quran simply. Remember, Quran gives us only message, not grammar or calculations. Specially for grammar, outside sources are significant.
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In my opinion, Option b reflects intellect and common sense. For example with the war related verses in the Quran, these is a lot more understandable when taking into account the cultural context of that time that the expansion of a faith was generally through military means.
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Shalom / peace brother Zack ...do you have any thoughts on the q below please?
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1889.msg9282#msg9282
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I dont agree with the point "a" because it is against the development. It creates dogma fixed ideas and it is the end of change both in the good and bad sense. We try to close the history of humankind by a false assumption that quran is a seal ended every dispute and again assume quran as clear as that anyone with average mind would benefit from. It is not, it's just a revelation reflected through Arabian customs and an Arabian prophet. It is not the end of human progress and development. Instead its showing us the general guidlines that we must take notice and derive from new insights which will accomodate today's needs. So any approach to quran accepting its ultimate end of human history and taking it literally will end up a great failure attempt of civilization experiment.
I agree with point "b" because everything can be expressed with relative to something. There must be a frame that something must relate and find its place so that it can have a meaning. Quran without its historical and cultural aspects wouldnt be understood. And that doesnt make it less valuable. Quran for example is in Arabic so language is a context frame a dictionary is a tool in that sense hadeeths and any historical evidence are also required to understand Quran. Again that doesnt mean to take what hadeeth and historical context say as ultimate truth.
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Quran for example is in Arabic so language is a context frame a dictionary is a tool in that sense hadeeths and any historical evidence are also required to understand Quran. Again that doesnt mean to take what hadeeth and historical context say as ultimate truth.
The Quran doesn't give religious authority to any other sources. Quran has its own directory to understand any of its verse & it seals outside sources to aid it. Hadith books can be used for additional aid to understand Quranic injunctions. But Quran also can be used only to get any religious explanations.
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The Quran doesn't give religious authority to any other sources.
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If I can respond to the above with 3 points:
1) Surah 10:94: If you are in doubt regarding what We have sent down to you, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before you. The Qur'an itself encourages those who read it to refer to outside sources, namely the Previous Scriptures.
2) When we say to that the Qur'an responds to Historical context , the primary source for the creating of that historical context is the Qur'an itself. For example:
- If we use the verse above, it tells us that Muhammad's followers had within access to people of the Previous scriptures. This one area has numerous external references with the presence of the Syriac Bible in towns throughout Arabia, and in fact much of the Arabic of the Qur'an incorporating Syriac language.
- Surah 6:159 : Do not divide into sects.... This tells us it is highly likely that there was widespread monotheism, but the issue was sectarianism. This we can also confirm from outside sources..
And so all through the Qur'an, it responds to real live situations, through a recitation. The Qur'an is culturally relevant to 7th century Arabia. If we don't understand this, there will be quranists in the future who will be people of violence, taking the text literally, removed from its context.
Being Qur'an centric doesn't mean a person reads the Quran anymore correctly. Two people can read the same text of the Bible, one is Tauhid, the other is a Trinitarian. Viewing the Quran text as as the eternal Arabic Revelation that came from heaven disconnected from its Arab context I would probably say is just as much a later tradition as the Hadith, and is in fact contrary to the Qur'an itself.
Wasalam
Zack
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Salam :)
This may be long, but I think it will help you.
Zack, you cited verse 10:94. This verse, when read in context, isn't asking for people to look for sources outside the Quran and take them for religious authority. It's simply asking people to talk to the receivers of the previous scriptures in order to recognize the Quran's authenticity. And it's not saying that those people have religious authority; it's just instructing people to engage in discussion and find the truth of the Quran.
Many articles exist online dedicated to explaining the "violent" verses of the Quran. These usually cite hadiths to explain the verses in "context." However, there's a certain method to understanding the Quran, and it doesn't involve hadiths. The Quran itself provides the context for all its verses, if you look closely.
"Then, you are those [same ones who are] killing one another and evicting a party of your people from their homes, cooperating against them in sin and aggression. And if they come to you as captives, you ransom them, although their eviction was forbidden to you. So do you believe in part of the Scripture and disbelieve in part? Then what is the recompense for those who do that among you except disgrace in worldly life; and on the Day of Resurrection they will be sent back to the severest of punishment. And Allah is not unaware of what you do." -2:85
"He is the One who sent down to you the Book, from which there are lawgiving revelations; they are the essence of the Book; and others which are of a similitude. As for those who have a disease in their hearts, they will follow that which is of a similitude, seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God, and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say: "We believe in it, all is from our Lord." And none will remember except those who possess intelligence." -3:7
There are a few ways to accurately understand the Quran and the "killing verses" without historical context or hadiths. Please see Quran 2:189-193. These verses basically give the rules for warfare. All other Quranic verses regarding warfare should be understood in light of these verses. Quran 1:191-192 say that believers should fight against those who fight them and fight in the cause of the oppressed. Therefore, if another verse instructs believers to kill those who don't agree with them, it's only referring to the people who attacked the believers first.
To understand any topic mentioned in the Quran, put all verses on the topic together. Then figure out what the implicit verses mean in light of the explicit ones. Many verses may seem contradictory at first, but if you take them in light of the clear verses, they make more sense. This is how most Quran-centrists make sense of the text.
For understanding the Quran without external sources, please see:
http://www.free-minds.org/quran/PM/A01
For understanding the "violent" verses with the Quran itself, please see:
http://quransmessage.com/articles/a%20message%20of%20peace%20or%20to%20live%20by%20the%20sword%20FM3.htm
http://quransmessage.com/articles/surah%20tauba%20FM3.htm
:)
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Salaam Zack,
I believe option b is what brother Joseph Islam is referring to when he uses (and prefers) the term Quran-Centric.:
"THE ‘QURAN-CENTRIC’ APPROACH
This approach, whilst arguing that the PRIMARY source of interpretation and the SOLE criterion to judge with central religious AUTHORITY remains the Quran, genuinely allows for other vestiges of knowledge to be studied from the ‘lens’ of the Quran. This is particularly true of any writings or literature that the Quran implicitly supports such as the Biblical narratives or any resources required to understand the Arabic language of the Quran. Thus the approach is inherently 'engaging' as opposed to being unduly 'restrictive' without warrant. It has the capacity to reject or accept any notion once studied from the Quran as central criterion and authority.
This is arguably the only approach the Quran itself sanctions, whilst unequivocally calling itself the 'furqan' (the 'criterion' between right and wrong and to make judgments from)
TWO CRUCIAL DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE 'QURANIST' (ISM) AND 'QURAN-CENTRIC' APPROACH:
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/542672849203180
Quran-centric - a powerful position indeed!:
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/330796700390797
And I fully concur, for reasons he's outlined in those posts.
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Peace Hassan A.
You quote the following in your post:
This is particularly true of any writings or literature that the Quran implicitly supports such as the Biblical narratives
Can you be more precise which biblical narratives ,or do you mean all the biblical narratives?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Zack, you cited verse 10:94. This verse, when read in context, isn't asking for people to look for sources outside the Quran and take them for religious authority. It's simply asking people to talk to the receivers of the previous scriptures in order to recognize the Quran's authenticity. And it's not saying that those people have religious authority; it's just instructing people to engage in discussion and find the truth of the Quran.
To understand any topic mentioned in the Quran, put all verses on the topic together. Then figure out what the implicit verses mean in light of the explicit ones. Many verses may seem contradictory at first, but if you take them in light of the clear verses, they make more sense. This is how most Quran-centrists make sense of the text.
Hello Miastar,
Thank you for your response. I think I partly agree with most you wrote, however
1) Concerning 10:94 "In my opinion, your sentence This verse isn't asking for people to look for sources outside the Quran" seems to be trying to dance around what the verse says. From this and other verses relating to the previous Holy Books..... In the prophet Muhammad's mind, the Qur'an was in totally unity with the Previous scriptures, otherwise this and other verses do not make sense.
2) Back to the initial point... Do you believe that certain verses in the Qur'an DID NOT specifically relate to a specific situation in Arabia during the life of Muhammad? In other words, it was supernaturally revealed not addressing specific local situations?
3) As I said before, I believe the view of the Qur'an was vastly different at the time of its revelation than today. It is extremely unlikely it was a book for a distinct religious group, but to unite a Nation... which was predominantly sectarian Christians. Islam (with capital I) took about 50 years after the death of Muhammad to evolve. The Qur'an is clearly not intended to be a Book that supercedes or even contradicts the previous.
Can I suggest some research of "moderate revisionists" who are essentially Quran centric... meaning they have no question of the Quran's authenticity; regard the Hadith as any historical document written 200 years after an event; yet have a new view of the Quran through placing it in its historical context, often through internal evidence, however often through a growing understanding of its surroundings and environment. With this, the Quran begins to make greater sense.
Zack
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Without historical and social context you cant understand
1-beating wifes in case of their being disloyal 4:34 It was a man dominated society it was given authority over women.
2-and maidens with swelling breasts, like of age, 78:33 Arabs used to marry girls at their very early puberty ages.
3- They will be adorned therein with bracelets of gold and pearl, and their garments therein will be silk. 22:23 wearing gold and silk favoured for arabs.
4-Companions restrained (as to their glances), in (goodly) pavilions (tents) 55:72; Arabs lived in tents.
5-and all the river descriptions main theme being water which arabs lacked in deserts.
6-jinn: arabs already have a belief of jinn it was not introduced by quran as a new type of God's creature. It was believed and was seen as a source of power or to explain some phenomenons in the nature. Allah just corrected their wrong belief of seeing them as a source of power or authority beside God.
What i mean generally without understanding the context of quran which speaks to arabs at a given time and location we will lost the coordinates namely meanings of quran. Seeing quran as a timeless and locationless position giving it a situation over history of human kind is false position and it even goes against the qurans' order of to use our minds.
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I should also add that in divorcing process firstly men are given the order when you divorce your wifes.. (it firstly addressing male sexes because they are in charge they are the main addressee of the quran this feeling you will get when you read quran throghly. Also it states it never sent female prophets 016:043) so it has a male centric view which coincides with the fact that arabs were and are a male dominant society.
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Sorry for writing in sequences but one final note which strikes me that when quran gives authority to male over her wife it lists three action that he can take as a measure towards disloyal wife.
1-Rebuke them
2-Seperate their beds
3-Hit them
I want to focuse on option 2. If it was a society in which monogamy was dominant then this sanction actually is against the male. It would be like punishing male instead of mean taking into notice of sexual desires of male and femaly anatomy. But if it is a polygamy it makes very sense because of jealousy between wifes in order to be his favour. (yes women nature again)
Just wanted to point out this: with historical, social and time context you can have a better understanding of quran. So using sensible hadeeth which arenot contradicting with qurans clear guidelines hadeeth can also help to some degree o understand its context. Rejecting hadeeth completely is kinda turning your back to an invaluble historical evidences.
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Peace relearning.
What you say below contradicts Qoran, quote:
Just wanted to point out this: with historical, social and time context you can have a better understanding of quran. So using sensible hadeeth which arenot contradicting with qurans clear guidelines hadeeth can also help to some degree o understand its context. Rejecting hadeeth completely is kinda turning your back to an invaluble historical evidences.
Qoran claims that GOD s words are sufficient and no other source is needed:
19:27:
وَاتلُ ما أوحِىَ إِلَيكَ مِن كِتابِ رَبِّكَ لا مُبَدِّلَ لِكَلِمٰتِهِ وَلَن تَجِدَ مِن دونِهِ مُلتَحَدًا
You shall preach/recite... what is revealed to you from your Lord. Nothing shall replace/abrogate His words. And you should not find/use any other source.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Shalom / peace Goodlogic....so why did Rashad khalifa support his justification to remove two verses of the Quran 9.128-29 by referring to hadith as well???? As you are a submitter, you surely think of him as a messenger of the covenant?
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Peace relearning.
What you say below contradicts Qoran, quote:
Just wanted to point out this: with historical, social and time context you can have a better understanding of quran. So using sensible hadeeth which arenot contradicting with qurans clear guidelines hadeeth can also help to some degree o understand its context. Rejecting hadeeth completely is kinda turning your back to an invaluble historical evidences.
Qoran claims that GOD s words are sufficient and no other source is needed:
19:27:
وَاتلُ ما أوحِىَ إِلَيكَ مِن كِتابِ رَبِّكَ لا مُبَدِّلَ لِكَلِمٰتِهِ وَلَن تَجِدَ مِن دونِهِ مُلتَحَدًا
You shall preach/recite... what is revealed to you from your Lord. Nothing shall replace/abrogate His words. And you should not find/use any other source.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Salam good logic i disagree with you we need sources other than quran even to study quran. Turning to a dictionary will be even against the logic which comes from your interpretation of the ayat. its by the way 18:27 in my quran you stated 19:27. Quran only approach has its flaws which starts when you see that in order to understand quran you need mortal people's books, dictionaries and writers of such books even dont have to be saints or prophets or messengers they can even be non muslims. Quran asks us to use our mind, logic, to wander around the earth to see what happened old societies even this requires sciences such as history, Archaeology etc.
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Peace relearning.
I am talking about "GOD s words" as authority about your salvation..
I am not saying do not use other sources for knowledge or for this life at all eg recipes ,history ,entertainment etc...
Qoran is a message from your Creator containing how to redeem yourself. GOD s words are sufficient for that redemption.
Of course you have the choice .You can choose whatever you decide, use whatever you want.Each has that freedom of choice.
My understanding only. I believe the Creator : "Al-Rahman Allama Qoran".
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Qoran claims that GOD s words are sufficient and no other source is needed:
19:27:
وَاتلُ ما أوحِىَ إِلَيكَ مِن كِتابِ رَبِّكَ لا مُبَدِّلَ لِكَلِمٰتِهِ وَلَن تَجِدَ مِن دونِهِ مُلتَحَدًا
You shall preach/recite... what is revealed to you from your Lord. Nothing shall replace/abrogate His words. And you should not find/use any other source.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Just on the above quote from Good Logic..., firstly I think it is Surah 18, not 19.... Also every translation I see translates the last sentence...None can change His Words, and none will you find as a refuge other than Him.
We need to put ourselves back in the situation to understand what is happening. The Qur'an is all about UNITY. Uniting sectarian groups under a "Code of conduct" that was revealed to Muhammad..... Bringing Arabia under a single creed.
Whether the specifics of this "Code of Conduct" (ie. ethical and legal teachings of the Quran), was ever intended to go beyond Arabia I am not sure has any basis, whilst the essence of islam is universal.
This topic is vital for the Qur'an centric community I believe, that they will be "learners", in particular understanding the historical context of the revelation to Muhammad, so not to confuse the essence of the message with local legal teachings.
Wasalam
Zack
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Peace Zack.
Thank you and relearning for pointing out it is surah 18. My mistake when writing the number.
Now, regarding the use of Qoran as a guide to our deen, there is no doubt that it requires every individual to check all information and filter the truth. Qorab confirms that "what has been revealed from our Lord"i.e GOD s words must be the only authority to be followed.
If one believes Qoran is the word of GOD, then one has to take the words seriously and believe GOD.
I also accept that other monotheists ,those who believe other scriptures, must also do the same.
All scriptures warn against "idolatry" .i.e taking men s words as authority beside GOD s.
But of course,everyone has the choice to follow their own understanding.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Peace Duster.
Please let me clarify again that I am a believer. , a "Muslim" to the Creator, My Lord and the Lord of everyone and every thing.
Now , I believe that Qoran is the word of GOD. I have solid proof. We already discussed the questions you are asking.
What is revealed from my Lord, Qoran, has the signature of GOD according to my checking. I believe every letter,every word and every verse that I have checked.
You believe according to your understanding.
Also ,from past discussions we have been advised not to discuss any numerology in here.
If you still want to know more ,I will discuss with you my proof privately.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Peace Duster.
I forgot to mention that I do not use hadith or any other source to confirm "what GOD has revealed". It is sealed numerically by the Lord of the universe. Every letter,every word ,every verse and every chapter is locked. Adding to it or taking away from it is easily detectable.
Like I said to you if you still want to know more ,I will discuss with you my proof privately.
For example this is a tip of the iceberg:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20F_AWBXxJ8
I will not be discussing this further in here.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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and also your evidence of using this ayat missing one point. This ayat puts prophet in the center aiming him. We are not him. We are not the direct addressee of this sentence. So using this evident is pointless for us muslims who are more than a thousand years away from the historical context of the prophets time. So as we need history we need every bits of information to enlighten the meanings of quran for us. So missing context of both historical time frame of quran is the main obstacle stands in front of us to understand it.