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The Quran => General Discussions => Topic started by: abdulmajeed31 on November 16, 2015, 08:39:02 PM

Title: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: abdulmajeed31 on November 16, 2015, 08:39:02 PM
Islam endorses the fact that Jinnaat are beings created by the will of God and they live on earth in a world parallel to mankind. The word Jinn have an Arabic origin and is derived from the word Janna, which means to conceal or hide. As the description suggests they are physically invisible and humans can’t see them. The invisibility is one of the reasons why most of the people don’t believe in their existence. However, if one believes in Allah and His words, they should not deny the existence of Jinnaat.

Read More: Existence of Jinnaat (http://blog.dawntravels.com/islamic-perspective-the-existence-of-jinnaat/)
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: Star on January 13, 2016, 09:35:55 PM
Weren't jinn thought to exist before the Quran? Arabs already believed in them and apparently communicated with them, or thought they communicated with them, or something.

Jinn are probably the same as the demons and spirits mentioned in the Bible, but I was wondering why the Quran talks so much about the jinn, who are considered to be mythological. I mean, according to the Quran they actually exist, but why does the Quran talk so much about a creature that seemingly has its roots in folklore? Do you think the Arabs were right and jinn really did exist, and the Quran confirmed this belief?

Arabs also worshipped jinn at that time. It's possible that the Quran mentioned jinn to stop Arabs from worshiping them, to show that jinn are just creations like humans and angels. Any thoughts?
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: hicham9 on January 14, 2016, 01:06:20 AM
There's no such a thing as "genies" in the Qurān.
That's a superstitious, persian/ajamean fairytale that traditionalists foist upon the textus !

Contrary to popular belief,
both الجن and الانس are mortal humans ...

The Qurān is a book of facts, not fiction.

Salute
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: A.H.A on January 14, 2016, 06:59:18 AM
Quote
Contrary to popular belief,
both الجن and الانس are mortal humans ...

Can you explain how?
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: Star on January 14, 2016, 07:01:02 AM
Salam!

Hicham9: Your reply has left me utterly baffled. Please explain what you are talking about.

I pose these questions to other forum members and Brother Joseph:

1) If jinn were a part of Arab folklore before Muhammad even existed, how did they get into the Quran? Why is the Quran full of tales about them, when they were just part of early mythology?

2) Are the jinn in the Quran the same as the spirits/demons mentioned in the Bible? Why are jinn talked about so exclusively in the Quran, among monotheistic scripture?

Some of the above questions might sound a bit accusatory :-[ I don't mean it that way :) Just wondering.

Mia
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: Star on January 14, 2016, 07:05:40 AM
"Belief in jinn was common in early Arabia, where they were thought to inspire poets and soothsayers. Even Muḥammad originally feared that his revelations might be the work of jinn. Their existence was further acknowledged in official Islām, which indicated that they, like human beings, would have to face eventual salvation or damnation. Jinn, especially through their association with magic, have always been favourite figures in North African, Egyptian, Syrian, Persian, and Turkish folklore and are the centre of an immense popular literature, appearing notably in The Thousand and One Nights. In India and Indonesia they have entered local Muslim imaginations by way of the Qurʾānic descriptions and Arabic literature. See also ghoul; ifrit."

This is what Brittanica says about jinn. They were thought to exist before the Quran came along. Just thought I'd clarify.
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: Star on January 15, 2016, 08:44:38 AM
Just in case my questions were ambiguous (sorry for so many consecutive posts), I was simply wondering why jinn, which originated in folklore and not reality, would be considered real in the Quran. There are references to demons and spirits in other scripture, but none go by the name "jinn." People say Muhammad copied folktales about jinn when he (supposedly) wrote the Quran, and this allegation could be refuted if we knew why jinn are talked about, and why they seem to come from fairytales. (I believe in them, but...you know.)
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: adnan11_in on January 16, 2016, 08:08:45 PM
Jinn or جِنَّ
Meaning which is hidden or cannot b seen.

Related words with jinns are
Jan'nath or جنّة hidden gardens
Maj'noon inspired by jinns
Ju'noon the hidden desperate intention
Ja'neen – Embryo hidden inside body.

In quran Jinns r mention more than 50 times.

CREATION
وَالْجَانَّ خَلَقْنَاهُ مِن قَبْلُ مِن نَّارِ السَّمُومِ ﴿الحجر: ٢٧﴾
And the Jinn race, We had created before, from the fire of a scorching wind or smokeless fire.

PURPOSE.
وَمَا خَلَقْتُ الْجِنَّ وَالْإِنسَ إِلَّا لِيَعْبُدُونِ ﴿الذاريات: ٥٦﴾
I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve or worship Me.
Jinn have free will allowing them to do as they choose (such as follow any religion).
They are usually invisible to humans, and humans do not appear clearly to them.
Jinn have the power to travel large distances at extreme speeds and are thought to live in remote areas, mountains, seas, trees, and the air, in their own communities.

WHAT JINNS EAT ?
Sahi Muslim
The Book of Prayers (Kitab Al-Salat) [004:0903]
………….He (the Holy Prophet) said:
There came to me an inviter on behalf of the jinn and I went along with him and recited to them the Qur'an.
 He (the narrator) said: He then went along with us and showed us their traces and traces of their embers.
They (the jinn) asked him (the Holy Prophet) about their provision and he said:
Every bone on which the name of Allah is recited is your provision.
The time it will fall in your hand it would be covered with flesh, and the dung of (the camels) is fodder for your animals.
The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said:
Don't perform istinja with these (things) for these are the food of your brothers (jinn).

Sunan at-Tirmidhi
 Chapter No: 1, Taharah (Purification)
Hadith no: 18  and
SUNAN ABUDAWOOD
Purification (Kitab Al-Taharah) [1:0039]
Narrated Abdullah ibn Mas'ud:
A deputation of the jinn came to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said:
O Muhammad, forbid your community to cleans themselves with a bone or dung or charcoal, for in them Allah has provided sustenance for us.
So the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) forbade them to do so.

EVERY HUMAN HAS A JINN ASIDE
SAHI MUSLIM
Kitab Sifat Al-Qiyamah wal Janna wan-Nar) [039:6757]
Abdullah b. Mas'ud reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said:
There is none amongst you with whom is not an attache from amongst the jinn (devil).
They (the Companions) said:
Allah's Messenger, with you too?
Thereupon he said:
Yes, but Allah helps me against him and so I am safe from his hand and he does not command me but for good

JINNS HELP IN FORTUNE TELLING ?

The Book on Salutations and Greetings (Kitab As-Salam) [026:5536] 'Urwa reported from
 'A'isha that she said that people asked Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) about the kahins.
Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said to them:
It is nothing (i. e. it is a mere superstition).
They said: Allah's Messenger, they at times narrate to us things which we find true.
Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said:
That is a word pertaining to truth which a jinn snatches away and then cackles into the ear of his friend as the hen does. And then they mix in it more than one hundred lies.

Salutations and Greetings (Kitab As-Salam) [026:5535] '
A'isha reported:
I said: Allah's Messenger, the kahins used to tell us about things (unseen) and we found them to be true.
 Thereupon he said:
That is a word pertaining to truth which a jinn snatches and throws into the ear of his friend (fortune teller), and he makes an addition of one hundred lies to it.
وَلَقَدْ زَيَّنَّا السَّمَاءَ الدُّنْيَا بِمَصَابِيحَ وَجَعَلْنَاهَا رُجُومًا لِّلشَّيَاطِينِ وَأَعْتَدْنَا لَهُمْ عَذَابَ السَّعِيرِ ﴿الملك: ٥﴾


Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: Seraphina on January 16, 2016, 09:33:54 PM
Salam all,
Its been crossing my mind as well for a very long time. :) Quran says that no warner had ever come to them before Muhammad. Then how did they know about the existence of jinn? Why the previous scriptures do not mention anything similar? Whats the word in hebrew or aramaic used for demons or spirits?
Brother Joseph would be so helpful right now :)
God bless,
Seraphina
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: Sardar Miyan on January 17, 2016, 12:31:05 AM
Salam All Please go through the Joseph Islam's article on Jinn which clarifies all about Jinn
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: hicham9 on January 17, 2016, 01:16:23 AM
Quote from: Sardar Miyan on January 17, 2016, 12:31:05 AM
Salam All Please go through the Joseph Islam's article on Jinn which clarifies all about Jinn

Thanks but, I'd rather learn directly from the clear, Arabian Qurān.

I recommend you do the same, and objectively use your G-D given mind to figure out things on your own, instead of blindly following/relying on other people's understandings.

سلام
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: Star on January 17, 2016, 01:17:02 AM
Hi everyone ! :)

Adnan11: Thank you for your info about jinn, but we don't know about the veracity of these hadiths. Could you please quote some Quran verses about jinn if they contain pertinent information? Thank you ;)

Seraphina: I think "demon" in Aramaic is "shed" or something like that (online dictionary), and it's in the Bible. However, the "demons" in the Bible are usually considered fallen angels, not jinn. But we know that angel's don't "fall", so these demons/fallen angels must be jinn.

Also, the Apocrypha mentions that King Solomon had spirits or demons working for him. (I mean, he tamed them, so they weren't really evil, but they were called demons.)

I want to say something else here--you know how the Kabah was originally built by Abraham? Abraham's son Ishmael apparently migrated to Arabia, and his descendants, the pagan Arabs, messed up the Kabah and started putting idols in it. They still believed in a supreme God called Allah, but they set up sons and daughters for him and made idols to represent them. They still did pilgrimage around the Kabah, but not the right way. This was the problem. When the Quran came around, it abolished the bad practices of idol-worship and weird pilgrimage rituals, but it retained the original pilgrimage around the Kabah that Ishmael had instituted. Paganism was basically just a messed-up version of the original monotheism, so the Quran retained the aspects of it that were consistent with monotheistic teachings.

The point is, jinn may have been believed in way before the Arabs started idol-worshipping. The word "jinn" comes from Palmyra and Arabia, but the concept of spirits existed in pretty much every society. Jinn or demon-like spirits had been mentioned in previous monotheistic scripture,  but the Arabs messed up the concept of jinn and started worshipping them, just like they messed up the Kabah pilgrimage. The Quran condemned this innovated jinn-worship but acknowledged the fact that these spirits existed, because previous scriptures did mention them on occasion.

It's possible that the Quran talks so much about jinn because it was an issue that needed to be addressed. After all, jinn were being worshipped. So the Quran had to stress the fact that jinn were just a creation of God, which is why it talks about their composition and creation.

The stuff I wrote above isn't necessarily a fact, but this is the version of events from my understanding. Jinn (or hidden spirits) were always known to exist, but the Arabs carried their concept too far and started worshipping them, so the Quran corrected this.

Sardar Miyan: I've read his article about jinn, but it doesn't address this.

I wonder what Brother Joseph's viewpoint on this is?

Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: Sardar Miyan on January 17, 2016, 02:05:19 PM
Bro mia666, please express clearly as to what is a part which Bro Joseph Islam not covered in the Article Jinn? Thanks
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: Star on January 18, 2016, 12:53:52 AM
Salam Sardar Miyan,

I'm a sister...LOL...

About the jinn article, it talks about the composition of jinn and their characteristics, but it doesn't talk about how they came to be mentioned in the Quran, and it doesn't talk about their history or why they weren't mentioned much in the other scriptures.

I think Brother Joseph should write an article describing how these traditions and beliefs evolved in Islam.

:)
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: hicham9 on January 18, 2016, 01:03:10 AM
Salute @Sardar,

How does the article you recommend translate adj. جن  ?
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: Star on January 18, 2016, 04:52:38 AM
The article translated jinn as something that is hidden or unseen.
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: Sardar Miyan on January 18, 2016, 05:18:57 AM
Sorry for mistake sister mia666. Bro Joseph Islam is concerned with the narration as per Quran and he is not concerned with traditions & beliefs. Don't expect Hadiths & other stories fro him.
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: hicham9 on January 18, 2016, 05:34:55 AM
Just because something, or someone is "hidden" (from view) doesn't mean it/he is a "genie" !!! Take the occult/covert minority of furtives/p (https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/privateer)rivateers -that own and run the corrupt monetary system- as an example.
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: A.H.A on January 18, 2016, 05:42:28 AM
Quote from: hicham9 on January 18, 2016, 01:03:10 AM
Salute @Sardar,

How does the article you recommend translate adj. جن  ?

Why do you think this word is an adjective rather than a noun?
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: Sardar Miyan on January 18, 2016, 05:57:21 AM
The QM Forum does not recognize anything other than Quran therefore do not believe in any other stories other than Quran.
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: hicham9 on January 18, 2016, 06:01:35 AM
Quote from: A.H.A on January 18, 2016, 05:42:28 AM
Why do you think this word is an adjective rather than a noun?

Because, to my knowledge, the term is used as an epithet in the Qurān.

What noun in English do you see as the equivalent of QA. جن  ?

Plz don't say "genie" !
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: A.H.A on January 18, 2016, 06:24:11 AM
Quote from: hicham9 on January 18, 2016, 06:01:35 AM

Because, to my knowledge, the term is used as an epithet in the Qurān.

What noun in english do you see as the equivalent of QA. جن  ?

Plz don't say "genie" !

It doesn't matter, description is important not the name/title. The way the Quran describes them, it looks like they are different than humans. For instance:

We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape; Q[15:27]
And the Jinn, We had created before, from the fire of a scorching wind. Q[15:28]

Or

And we [the Jinn] pried into the secrets of heaven; but we found it filled with stern guards and flaming fires. Q[72:8]
'We used, indeed, to sit there in stations, to (steal) a hearing; but any who listen now will find a flaming fire watching him in ambush. Q[72:9]
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: hicham9 on January 18, 2016, 06:32:31 AM
Quote from: A.H.A on January 18, 2016, 06:24:11 AM
It doesn't matter, description is important not the name/title. The way the Quran describes them, it looks like they are different than humans.

I beg to disagree.

Quote from: A.H.A on January 18, 2016, 06:24:11 AM
For instance:
We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape; Q[15:27]
And the Jinn, We had created before, from the fire of a scorching wind. Q[15:28]

The term used in 15:27 is NOT جن ~ but جان  !!!

Learn the difference, brother.

Quote from: A.H.A on January 18, 2016, 06:24:11 AM
And we [the Jinn] pried into the secrets of heaven; but we found it filled with stern guards and flaming fires. Q[72:8]
'We used, indeed, to sit there in stations, to (steal) a hearing; but any who listen now will find a flaming fire watching him in ambush. Q[72:9]

Contextomy
& misconstruction.

These are humans talking,
not "genies" (as you were taught by sunnis).

سلام
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: A.H.A on January 18, 2016, 06:50:06 AM
Quote from: hicham9 on January 18, 2016, 06:32:31 AM
The term used in 15:28 is NOT جن but جان  !!!
Learn the difference, brother.

That word means "the father of Jinn" according to dictionary.

Quote from: hicham9 on January 18, 2016, 06:32:31 AM
These are humans talking,
not "genies"

How?
_______
Why does Quran refer to Jinn and Ins separately? If they are no different, then why just not calling them "Ins" or "Jinn" rather than "Ins" and "Jinn".

But we do think that no "Ins" and "Jinn" should say aught that untrue against God. Q[72:5]

Then which of the favours of your Lord will you (dual plural) deny. Q[55:xx]
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: hicham9 on January 18, 2016, 06:54:30 AM
Here (http://beforeitsnews.com/contributor/upload/1393/images/kaz%204.jpg)'s how a جني looks like.
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: A.H.A on January 18, 2016, 07:09:28 AM
Quote from: hicham9 on January 18, 2016, 06:54:30 AM
Here (http://beforeitsnews.com/contributor/upload/1393/images/kaz%204.jpg)'s how a جني looks like.

But, by that definition, how do you explain these verses?

Q[27:38-40]
Q[72:8-9]
Q[34:12-15]
............
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: Hamzeh on January 18, 2016, 08:21:00 AM
Salam Mia

Regarding what you said
Quote
you know how the Kabah was originally built by Abraham? Abraham's son Ishmael apparently migrated to Arabia, and his descendants, the pagan Arabs, messed up the Kabah and started putting idols in it.
Please see below the articles below [1] [2] that might clarify some things Insha'Allah.

Salam hicham9

This site has been dedicated sincerely by very hard efforts and is intended for people who seek the truth and take the best of what they hear. I feel you are confusing people instead of teaching them by stating what you think and not providing any proof to your arguments. I don't think that is your intention. Religion and faith are very serious issue and should not be talked about without knowledge. Some people lack knowledge but they certainly are looking for a right path and answers about their existence. Therefore they choose with their intelligence to take best from what makes sense according to there God given gift of discernment. This is not blind following. They are verifying the truth for themselves.

There are subjects and concepts people discuss. Since not everyone is well versed with the Quran, and may not be blessed with the knowledge that it contains, or may have a life that is time consumed by making ends meet, they may not have the privilege of spending much time researching. Some don't speak the Arabic at all. So based on important topics and subjects, they ask those who have understanding and rooted with knowledge to show verification of the topics in discussion.

You have been asked some sincere questions over time and you have not provided sincere honest answers with proof and verification.

Please take this site seriously my brother

Peace and Blessings

[1]PROPHET ABRAHAM'S (pbuh) ORIGINAL SANCTUARY - AT MAKKAH (MECCA) OR BAKKAH (BACA)?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/makkah%20bakkah%20FM3.htm

[2]ARE THE ARABS AND PROPHET MUHAMMAD (pbuh) REALLY DESCENDANTS OF PROPHET ABRAHAM? (pbuh)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/are%20the%20arabs%20descendants%20of%20abraham%20FM3.htm
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: Star on January 18, 2016, 10:46:31 AM
Salam Hamzeh,

I read over the articles you cited and it appears that my theory was incorrect (sorry Seraphina
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: Star on January 18, 2016, 11:04:53 AM
Salam Hamzeh, sorry for the abrupt end to my previous reply. It appears that many of my replies have been disappearing lately. I typed up 3 paragraphs, but only 1 showed up when I hit post. Oh well. Regarding the articles you cited, I read through them and it appears that my theory was incorrect. I assumed that Abraham's progeny brought Islam to Arabia, and gradually the Arabs messed it up with their pagan rituals. The Quran came down to correct the pagan rituals but to maintain the original Abrahamic rituals of Kabah pilgrimage and the like. If this isn't the case, then what actually happened? How did some of the beliefs and cultural elements of pagan Arabia filter into Quranic Islam? For example, Muslims believe in jinn, which came from pagan Arabia, not Abraham, right? (Please correct me if I'm mistaken.) If you could clarify how this happened, I'd really appreciate it, since I'm a but confused right now :)
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: Star on January 18, 2016, 11:10:15 AM
Sorry, I missed a bit at the end of the article! This is what it said:

"It was further posited given the Quranic verses, that Abrahamic rites were reinstituted at the Kaaba for the followers of the final revelation. The connection between them and the ancients was one of faith rather than that of geographical locale.
 
The Kaaba was a site for Pagan worship. A messenger amongst the community was raised to rehearse to them God's verses, to sanctify them and to teach them scripture and wisdom (62:2). Practices that were incongruent with Islam were challenged and subsequently removed. Those commensurate with the teachings of Islam were allowed to remain (2:158). This was the perfection that was completed (5:3).
 
No doubt, Prophet Muhammad's  (pbuh) affiliation with the site at Makkah was historic, possibly since childhood (2:144 -  "...So We shall surely turn you to a direction of devotion / prayer (Arabic: Qiblatan) that you will be pleased with..."). This site was chosen to become the direction and Holy sanctuary for the new Muslims. It was here that the practices of old were reinstituted by Divine decree.
 
In the end, only God knows best." ~ JAI


Brother Hamzeh: From this, it becomes clear that my theory was partially correct, in relation to the Kabah and its pagan rituals being eliminated. However, what about jinn? How did they become part of Islam? Any thoughts? :)
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: Hamzeh on January 18, 2016, 01:48:14 PM
Salam Mia

Sorry Mia I should of also included this article below :)[1]

Correct me if I'm wrong but i'm assuming you have the impression that Islam was practiced in Mecca before the revelation of the Quran but over time it was changed and diverted from the truth and became pagans and then God sent them a messenger(Muhammad) to reinstitute the proper ways of Islam?

From what I understand from this that you quoted from Br. Joseph:
Quote
No doubt, Prophet Muhammad's  (pbuh) affiliation with the site at Makkah was historic, possibly since childhood (2:144 -  "...So We shall surely turn you to a direction of devotion / prayer (Arabic: Qiblatan) that you will be pleased with..."). This site was chosen to become the direction and Holy sanctuary for the new Muslims. It was here that the practices of old were reinstituted by Divine decree.

Is that, although the site in Mecca was not the holy site that was used by Abraham or any other prophet that is known to us through any scripture, the practices of old which was started in Bekka by Abraham( assuming it was in holy lands of Jerusalem) was REINSTITUTED  in Mecca. Mecca which is the home land of the prophet Muhammad(pbuh) from childhood which could of consisted to the change of the Qibla by God because Muhammad and his people desired or pleased with.

That means that what was once the Qibla(direction of prayer) and the hajj that was started by Abraham in a place called Bekka(where ever that was) is now also given to a new people in a different place than Bakka which is Mecca(Kaaba).

In the end Indeed God know best

you said
Quote
How did some of the beliefs and cultural elements of pagan Arabia filter into Quranic Islam? For example, Muslims believe in jinn, which came from pagan Arabia, not Abraham, right? (Please correct me if I'm mistaken.)
Quote
However, what about jinn? How did they become part of Islam? Any thoughts? :)

I don't think there is any proof that the pagans either believed in Jinns or disbelieved in them in any way. There is no proof of that. It also could of been passed on from Abrahams people but not in the correct form. No different of how people may hear of Islam who are distant from it. They might think the opposite of what it might be and some may adapt certain things that are correct.

Also just because people do something right doesn't mean they needed guidance through a scripture. These could of happened by the nature humans are created with. For example belief in one God. Prophet Abraham(pbuh) did.

Also it could be that coincidentally or intentionally that people have invented some sort of religion or devotion by superstition or by the other people around them. It is well known from the Quran that these particular Arabs did not receive any guidance from God in the past. That being said I would not necessarily stem them back to as far as the time of Adam's children which received guidance.

Thus another question arises, since  Adam knew about Jinns, and all people are the children of Adam. Would not that mean the Arabs some how been guided? Or knew about Jinns?

There is also the argument that all the people were destroyed from the children of Adam except Noah and who was saved with him in the Ark, and then progeny started again with different races from who ever was on the Ark including Noah. Again God knows best.

A similar question to your question if i'm understanding you correctly is:
The term Jinn was it part a existing term or was it invented and introduced to the Arabs in the presence of the Quran?
The term Micheal is used once in the Quran, how would they know about him or what was expected from them to know about him?

From what I would gather up is that since believers are encouraged to be familiar with the Bible then all this would fit together.

It could be quite possible that some of the rituals and ways of the pagans were adopted from different place over different times. And they made names for certain aspects. There was possibly also other people living in there areas. Usually when a culture invents a name of a certain material or something important in that language another people would possibly also invent a name for that in another language.

However what the Quran did was correct their wrong ways. "Practices that were incongruent with Islam were challenged and subsequently removed. Those commensurate with the teachings of Islam were allowed to remain (2:158). This was the perfection that was completed (5:3)."

I think I repeated myself a couple times, I hope i didn't lose you :)

Peace

[1]THE QIBLA CHANGE
http://quransmessage.com/articles/qibla%20FM3.htm
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: Star on January 19, 2016, 01:03:34 AM
Salam :)

You said:

"Is that, although the site in Mecca was not the holy site that was used by Abraham or any other prophet that is known to us through any scripture, the practices of old which was started in Bekka by Abraham( assuming it was in holy lands of Jerusalem) was REINSTITUTED  in Mecca. Mecca which is the home land of the prophet Muhammad(pbuh) from childhood which could of consisted to the change of the Qibla by God because Muhammad and his people desired or pleased with."

This would make sense. So Abrahamic practices WERE reintroduced to Arabia, but not from Ishmael.

You also said:

"I don't think there is any proof that the pagans either believed in Jinns or disbelieved in them in any way. There is no proof of that. It also could of been passed on from Abrahams people but not in the correct form. No different of how people may hear of Islam who are distant from it. They might think the opposite of what it might be and some may adapt certain things that are correct."

I have to disagree, because there is archaeological evidence that the Arabs paid tributes to jinn in some way. They were considered to be spirits who could control people and help them.

Also, the Quran says people worshipped jinn in pagan Arabia:

"And they made the jinn associates with Allah, while He created them, and they falsely attributed to Him, and highly exalted is He above what they ascribe to Him." (6:100)

I was wondering, do you think these people actually interacted with jinn, or were jinn just a belief they made up?

These Arabs also worshipped a supreme god called Allah, although they set up intercessors with Him and worshipped them as well. Allah in Arabic just means "the God". I guess when the Quran came along, it got rid of all the other gods and reinstituted Allah as the One God.

In addition, you stated that the Arabs had not received any guidance before Muhammad arrived. It's possible that the Quran is referring to those particular Arabs who lived at that time, and not necessarily all the Arabs that had ever lived in that land. (God knows best :))

I read the article, and it's clear from this article that the Kabah wasn't the original "house of God" that Abraham had built. It's weird, because I was taught all my life that Abraham and Ishmael built it.

Mia :)
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: Star on January 19, 2016, 01:10:14 AM
Also, if the Kabah wasn't built by Abraham and didn't originally introduce the monotheistic faith, then how did the Arabs know about Allah? Or did they just invent him as one of their gods, and invent the Kabah rituals without any influence from monotheism?  ???  :)
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: Hamzeh on January 19, 2016, 03:25:43 AM
Peace Mia

I have to agree with your disagreement of mine :). You did prove that they did associate the jinns with God(6:100). Thus it was in their terminology.

Quote
I read the article, and it's clear from this article that the Kabah wasn't the original "house of God" that Abraham had built. It's weird, because I was taught all my life that Abraham and Ishmael built it.

I think lots of us thought that.

Quote
I was wondering, do you think these people actually interacted with jinn, or were jinn just a belief they made up?

From verse 6:100 that you kindly shared there seems to be a hint that they knew what the jinns were. But believing in Jinns was not what God had condemned, it was that they associated them with God. I can't really say where this belief rooted from. God knows best.

Quote
Also, if the Kabah wasn't built by Abraham and didn't originally introduce the monotheistic faith, then how did the Arabs know about Allah? Or did they just invent him as one of their gods, and invent the Kabah rituals without any influence from monotheism?

Again only God knows best.
Of course these Arabs were not totally isolated from the world, and they did hear stories from time to time from other people who may have been guided. At times the Quran speaks to them as if there may be stories that have been passed around in the land. example 88:01 "Has there come to you the narration of the overwhelming."

Only God knows best where they invented their rituals from and where the Kaba came from before the advent of the Quran.

Peace
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: Truth Seeker on January 19, 2016, 06:12:15 AM
hicham9:
[/list]
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: hicham9 on January 19, 2016, 09:06:59 PM
Quote from: Truth Seeker on January 19, 2016, 06:12:15 AM
hicham9:
  • Can you stop making sweeping statements then disappear from the thread. You state that
    'The Qurān is a book of facts, not fiction.' yet have not provided any proof from the Quran as to what jinn are.
  • Joseph however has and you seemed irked when another forum member requested you read his article on the matter!
  • One liners are not appreciated here so as a moderator, I will be monitoring your posts and if I deem them to be time wasting I will remove you from this forum.
  • You state:"Thanks but, I'd rather learn directly from the clear, Arabian Qurān."
    Then what are you doing here airing your views? Why should we listen to you when you don't want anyone else to listen to Joseph or others? 

Salute @TS

There's nothing wrong with me sharing my personal understanding,
whether one-liners or not !

If ye truly seek proof from the Qurān that الجن and الانس are epithets used of humans, then plz study the Qurān on your own, objectively, instead of asking me to point out the obvious, 72:6.

I meant no disrespect, i just dislike spoon-feeding others!
I'm but an apprentice with a homework. The Teacher is G-D.

Ps. If you wish to remove me from the forum, then plz go ahead and do so :)

سلام
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: Star on January 20, 2016, 07:40:15 AM
Salam :)

Since Truthseeker advised us to stay on topic, I'll make a brief statement about the Kabah and then continue our discussion regarding jinn.  I  guess the pagans built the Kabah. And then Allah (using Muhammad) got rid of all the idols and made it a place of dedication and worship to one God. I think this shows how falsehood can be reformed--it could be symbolic, I suppose.

About jinn: In pagan Arabia, the term "jinn" was used to refer to "familiar spirits". The idea of spirits existed in pretty much every community at that time, and it still does. This idea was nothing new. The Arabs, however, didn't know about real jinn. They simply thought of jinn as god-like supernatural creatures who could protect people with magic. Thus, their definition of jinn, or spirits, was incorrect. Allah fixed this definition with the Quran. He informed the Arabs that the jinn are actually made of essence of fire, and  that they're not worthy of worship, and that it might be better not to associate with them.

In conclusion, the Arabs, just like every other society, believed in spirits. They called them jinn. They held jinn in high esteem and sometimes worshiped them. The Quran acknowledged the existence of spirits and continued using the term "jinn" to refer to them. However, it redefined these spirits, took away their alleged godlike qualities, and explained to the Arabs that their conception of jinn (spirits) was actually quite far away from the truth.

This is my understanding. The Arabs didn't know about jinn before the Quran came. They simply knew about spirits that bore little resemblance to real jinn, other than their name. God fixed this.

What do y'all think?

Mariyah

Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: Truth Seeker on January 23, 2016, 12:48:27 AM
Salaam Hitcham9

My point to you was simply that if someone else on the forum has read and understood from the Quran and also agreed with an article written by Joseph, it does not mean that they are blind followers. You have insulted another forum member for that.

To be frank, our readership is more sophisticated than that and they understand unequivocally understand that the true teacher is God.

Back to the actual TOPIC, please can you elaborate your statement:
Quote
Contrary to popular belief,
both الجن and الانس are mortal humans ...

The Qurān is a book of facts, not fiction.

It is fact that al jinn are a different creation to humans as the verses state:

"We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape; Q[15:27]
And the Jinn, We had created before, from the fire of a scorching wind." Q[15:28]

It clearly says that the jinn were created before man. Explain what that means to you?
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: hicham9 on January 23, 2016, 05:31:54 PM
Salute @TS,

Quote from: hicham9 on January 19, 2016, 09:06:59 PM
If ye truly seek proof from the Qurān that الجن and الانس are epithets used of humans, then plz study the Qurān on your own, objectively, instead of asking me to point out the obvious, 72:6

《وانه كان رجال من الانس يعوذون برجال من الجن فزادوهم رهقا》
And that: there were MEN among the "ins" seeking help from MEN (https://www.google.be/search?q=define+man&oq=define+man&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i59.3402j0j4&client=ms-android-samsung&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8) among the "gin,"
so they increased them in exhaustion.

(Q 72:6)

Lexical Definition :

الرَّجُلُ : الذكر البالغ من بني آدم

Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: hicham9 on January 23, 2016, 05:38:02 PM
Quote from: Truth Seeker on January 23, 2016, 12:48:27 AM
It is fact that al jinn are a different creation to humans as the verses state:

"We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape; Q[15:27]
And the Jinn, We had created before, from the fire of a scorching wind." Q[15:28]

It clearly says that the jinn were created before man. Explain what that means to you?

NoP ~ 15:28 does not talk about الجن !!!

I already pointed this out, here (http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1732.msg8439#msg8439) !

Hope this helps.

سلام
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: hicham9 on January 23, 2016, 11:49:32 PM
Quote from:  تاج العروس
الرَّجُلُ بِضَمِّ الجِيمِ وسُكونِهِ: م معروف وهو الذَّكَرُ مِنْ نَوْعِ الإنْسانِ يَخْتَصُّ به
 ولذلكَ قالَ تعالى : " وَلَوْ جَعَلْنَاهُ مَلَكاً لَجَعَلْناهُ رَجُلاً

Quote from: لسان العرب
الرَّجُل معروف الذكرُ من نوع الإِنسان خلاف المرأَة

Quote from: معجم المعاني الجامع
الرجل: الذكر البالغ من بني آدم


Quote from: Truth Seeker on January 19, 2016, 06:12:15 AM
hicham9: Can you stop making sweeping statements then disappear from the thread. You state that : 'The Qurān is a book of facts, not fiction.' yet have not provided any proof from the Quran as to what jinn are. Joseph however has and you seemed irked when another forum member requested you read his article on the matter!

Is this proof enough ?
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: Star on January 24, 2016, 12:06:59 PM
Salam Hicham9, when you write in Arabic, could you please translate? I can basically read Arabic, but I don't understand it, especially when it doesn't have diacriticals. I honestly have no idea what you just typed up there.

Also--this is just a request BTW--can you please change your signature at the bottom of your posts? Or at least make the picture a bit smaller? It's confusing to scroll through everything, and it's disorienting when your signature has more content than your posts.

Mia
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: hicham9 on January 24, 2016, 12:37:43 PM
Quote from: mia666 on January 24, 2016, 12:06:59 PM
Salam Hicham9, when you write in Arabic, could you please translate? I can basically read Arabic, but I don't understand it, especially when it doesn't have diacriticals. I honestly have no idea what you just typed up there.

Try google translate (https://translate.google.com/), or learn Arabic !

Quote from: mia666 on January 24, 2016, 12:06:59 PM
Also--this is just a request BTW--can you please change your signature at the bottom of your posts?

Sorry, can't do !

My personal signature tells one of my core beliefs.

Quote from: mia666 on January 24, 2016, 12:06:59 PM
Or at least make the picture a bit smaller? It's confusing to scroll through everything, and it's disorienting when your signature has more content than your posts.

I might consider resizing the image,
if you can do me a favour and get rid of your unaesthetic "m (http://kawaii.kawaii.at/img/kawaii-mouse.gif)ouse" :)

Deal ?
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: QM Moderators Team on January 24, 2016, 05:55:49 PM
Quote from: hicham9 on January 24, 2016, 12:37:43 PM
Quote from: mia666 on January 24, 2016, 12:06:59 PM
Salam Hicham9, when you write in Arabic, could you please translate? I can basically read Arabic, but I don't understand it, especially when it doesn't have diacriticals. I honestly have no idea what you just typed up there.

Try google translate (https://translate.google.com/), or learn Arabic !

Please kindly immediately cease posting Arabic text without providing a translation. This is a condition of the forum policy. Please do not circumvent this again.

1 (e)    The default language of this forum is English. The only other language that will be permitted is Arabic with the proviso that an appropriate translation in English is provided.




Quote from: hicham9 on January 24, 2016, 12:37:43 PM

Quote from: mia666 on January 24, 2016, 12:06:59 PM
Also--this is just a request BTW--can you please change your signature at the bottom of your posts?

Sorry, can't do !

My personal signature tells one of my core beliefs.

The topic of earth being flat will not ensue on this forum any longer as it has been considered exhausted for the purposes of this forum. Please kindly remove your signature going forward.

Thank you!
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: hicham9 on January 24, 2016, 06:12:22 PM
Ok, I'll edit my signature as soon as i get to my laptop.

Natheless, may i ask why are ye censoring what the minority wants to discuss ?

I thought this was a "quran-alone" forum ?! Doesn't the Quran advocate a planate earth (http://quranlexicon.blogspot.be/2015/08/blog-post.html?m=1) ?!?
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: QM Moderators Team on January 24, 2016, 06:39:45 PM
Quote from: hicham9 on January 24, 2016, 06:12:22 PM
Ok, I'll edit my signature as soon as i get to my laptop.

Natheless, may i ask why are ye censoring what the minority wants to discuss ?

I thought this was a "quran-alone" forum ?! Doesn't the Quran advocate a planate earth (http://quranlexicon.blogspot.be/2015/08/blog-post.html?m=1) ?!?

This matter has been deemed exhausted on this forum. 

Program of Creation of Man on Earth, in light of Quran.
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1790

The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?  New
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1611.0

Geocentrism and Flat Earth in Quran II  New
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1778.0

You are of course free to take these thoughts and express them on a more appropriate forum of your choosing or one of your own forums. This is a tightly managed forum focusing on meaningful academic debates regarding the Quran. This forum is a Quran-centric forum (Not Quran alone). You have shared your thoughts as have others. This matter is now closed and please kindly do not labour the topic or the decision that has been made. Thanks!


Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: samson on January 24, 2016, 07:21:52 PM
Quote from: QM Moderators Team on January 24, 2016, 06:39:45 PM
Quote from: hicham9 on January 24, 2016, 06:12:22 PM
Ok, I'll edit my signature as soon as i get to my laptop.

Natheless, may i ask why are ye censoring what the minority wants to discuss ?

I thought this was a "quran-alone" forum ?! Doesn't the Quran advocate a planate earth (http://quranlexicon.blogspot.be/2015/08/blog-post.html?m=1) ?!?

This matter has been deemed exhausted on this forum. 

Program of Creation of Man on Earth, in light of Quran.
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1790

The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?  New
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1611.0

Geocentrism and Flat Earth in Quran II  New
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1778.0

You are of course free to take these thoughts and express them on a more appropriate forum of your choosing or one of your own forums. This is a tightly managed forum focusing on meaningful academic debates regarding the Quran. This forum is a Quran-centric forum (Not Quran alone). You have shared your thoughts as have others. This matter is now closed and please kindly do not labour the topic or the decision that has been made. Thanks!

Hi Mod Team,

I was trying to have a "meaningful academic debate" in the thread Program of Creation of Man on Earth, in light of Quran. with Hassan but now it's closed simply because hicham said a few words in it. Could you guys not have simply blocked him in that thread or if he is breaking house rules then suspend/ban him from the forum? I just don't understand why you are going around locking threads whenever you feel like it.

My personal thoughts are that hicham should be allowed to have his own thread on the "Flat Earth" and whoever wishes can join him in it. People should be free to discuss whatever they want for however long they want as long as they are willing to and are not annoying others. Those that don't want to discuss the "Flat Earth" can simply ignore the thread like they already ignore other threads which they are not interested in.

Thanks


Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: QM Moderators Team on January 24, 2016, 09:22:53 PM
Quote from: samson on January 24, 2016, 07:21:52 PM
Hi Mod Team,

I was trying to have a "meaningful academic debate" in the thread Program of Creation of Man on Earth, in light of Quran. with Hassan but now it's closed simply because hicham said a few words in it. Could you guys not have simply blocked him in that thread or if he is breaking house rules then suspend/ban him from the forum? I just don't understand why you are going around locking threads whenever you feel like it.

My personal thoughts are that hicham should be allowed to have his own thread on the "Flat Earth" and whoever wishes can join him in it. People should be free to discuss whatever they want for however long they want as long as they are willing to and are not annoying others. Those that don't want to discuss the "Flat Earth" can simply ignore the thread like they already ignore other threads which they are not interested in.

Thanks

Dear Samson,

Please try to understand that this forum is not intended for users to do whatever they like on their threads. This forum attempts to be different and attempts to focus conversations on a particular Quranic matter with real academic focus, evidence and really importantly - civility and respect regardless of the thread. If this is threatened in any way, the discussions are curtailed and reoffending users warned or banned. It is really that simple. Of course, no one is forced to write on this forum, and thus we kindly do expect those who do to accept the forum rules and the various expectations of this forum. As you are aware, there are numerous forums (which appear free for all - say whatever you like), but this is not one of them.

As forum moderators are split on whether to re-open the thread or not, your request has been checked with brother Joseph who is happy for the thread to be opened as it is seems that you and Hassan both do appear to want to have a respectful "meaningful academic debate" as you say.  Therefore - the thread has been re-opened as per your request and brother Joseph's instruction.

Thanks!
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: samson on January 24, 2016, 10:30:29 PM
Quote from: QM Moderators Team on January 24, 2016, 09:22:53 PM
If this is threatened in any way, the discussions are curtailed and reoffending users warned or banned. It is really that simple.

Thanks for opening the thread.

But as you have clearly stated above "reoffending users warned or banned". That's the action I expect Mods to take rather than to take the rather drastic and puzzling action of closing a thread. If 10 ppl in a thread are happily discussing something and then one individual disobeys the rule is it logical to lock the entire thread or to simply warn/suspend/ban the offending user?

Hope the above makes sense as I don't think you guys really understood it in my first post. On other forums, the Mods warn the user each time they breach the rules and post the warning into the thread so others users are aware and can be educated in the forum rules. After a number of warnings they are suspended.

Regards
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: Star on January 25, 2016, 12:24:02 AM
Salam Hicham9...

Excusez-moi? My "unaesthetic mouse" is perfectly harmless, and it doesn't confuse anyone or incite rude arguments *cough*. So thank you, but I am leaving it there.

I notice your signature has not yet been changed.

Please listen to reason instead of attacking other people's choices.

Mia
Title: Re: The Existence of Jinnaat in Islamic Point of View
Post by: Truth Seeker on January 25, 2016, 12:43:11 AM
Salaam Mia 666: You will be pleased to hear that Hitcham9 is no longer part of this forum.

Also Samson:

We are not like other forums as our tolerance level is lower. We close threads for many reasons including taking the heat out of discussions. However we do not need to justify our actions to our members as per our forum policy.
Luckily closing topics and removing members is rare as our forum users on the whole are civil and respectful backing their arguments with evidence.