QM Forum
The Quran => General Discussions => Topic started by: Amira on July 21, 2017, 12:43:18 AM
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Salaam,
In 18:80 (part of the Moses-wise man story), Khidr is said to have killed a child because he 'suspected' the child might grow up to overburden his parents with disbelief. This is despite the fact that Quran 5:32 prohibits taking a soul except as a punishment for murder or corruption on Earth. 18:65 says Khidr was gifted with mercy and wisdom, but I think Moses was right to ask why he killed the child. If the child was killed then, he would have had no chance to repent later.
Is there an alternate understanding of the story? If not, is there a way to reconcile the contradiction?
The Quran only allows punishment for proven crimes, and even then there is a concession of mercy, depending on whether the perpetrator repents. Killing the child despite this would be a clear violation, even if Khidr allegedly had knowledge of the Unseen.
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Dear Amira,
Wa alaikum assalam
Purely from a Quran's perspective, can you please kindly share with me how you have concluded the name 'Khidr' and that he was a wise 'man'. I respectfully ask this in light of the description given by the Quran in verse 18:65 and the concluding remarks 'wama faʿaltuhu ʿan amri' 'I did not do it on my own accord / desire / command." [18:82]
Hopefully this may open up more possibilities of cogent interpretations for you.
Regards,
Joseph
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The name is from secondary source narrations.
OH.
It says "a servant..." (abd) so, not necessarily an actual human. And he didn't do it of his own accord...so he probably wasn't human, and was sent specifically to teach Moses a lesson, and he didn't make the choice to do those things. That could signify him being an angel (possibly), because angels generally don't do things of their own accord, and angels are known to break worldly laws.
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Do you think that's the right interpretation?
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When referring to stories in the Quran, my understanding is that they are ahistorical. The stories of the Qur'an are known oral stories circulated in the Prophets context. They were utilised generally for another purpose, ie. To bring give examples of God's judgement if people do not repent.
This changes totally the way you approach such stories below, of Moses etc. Muhammad had no clear understanding of the stories of the former books, which were not in Arabic. The purpose of the story was to show "That God is forgiving and merciful" (v57,58). Therefore a local oral Arabic story was used to emphasize this point.
In my opinion, treating the stories of the Qur'an as a historical book doesn't fulfill its purpose, and has very little basis. Increasingly the origins of the Qur'an's stories as oral in the region at Muhammad's time is clear.
Wasalam
Zack
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When referring to stories in the Quran, my understanding is that they are ahistorical.
In my opinion, treating the stories of the Qur'an as a historical book doesn't fulfill its purpose, and has very little basis. Increasingly the origins of the Qur'an's stories as oral in the region at Muhammad's time is clear.
Wasalam
Zack
Shalom / peace Zack
What are you trying to say? That these stories may not be true? That they are simply stories circulated by the Arabs? .....Your posts sometimes seem to suggest to me that GOD cannot use real events to derive a message.....Remember it is GOD that teaches a prophet called Muhammad. Prophet Muhammad isn't using an old story which never happened to make the point.....
If I've misunderstood you..... please clarify....
PS: brother Joseph ....i liked the way you responded with the 'Food for thought ' approach and getting the enquirer to share further thinking based on new information .......
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What are you trying to say? That these stories may not be true? That they are simply stories circulated by the Arabs?
If I've misunderstood you..... please clarify....
Yes, that is correct. This doesn't diminish the purpose of the message of the Qur'an. To me, and many others, everything points towards the stories of the Qur'an being oral stories in Arabia at the surrounding region at the time of Muhammad.
Muhammad wasn't revealed a history book. He was revealed a message. And to communicate that message, local stories were used. Most logically thinking people would see quickly that the Qur'an does not read as presenting History, when they put it beside any historical document. There is no chronology, little or no context to events.
If you were to recreate a history of the Prophets (Relevant Places, time, people etc), from the Qur'an, it is not possible. In fact, to say that the Qur'an is a historical Book is an insult to the Qur'an.
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The name is from secondary source narrations.
OH.
It says "a servant..." (abd) so, not necessarily an actual human. And he didn't do it of his own accord...so he probably wasn't human, and was sent specifically to teach Moses a lesson, and he didn't make the choice to do those things. That could signify him being an angel (possibly), because angels generally don't do things of their own accord, and angels are known to break worldly laws.
Dear Amira
As-salamu alaykum
This is very plausible.
It is also useful to remember that God's appointed non-human emissaries have at times come disguised as humans with the duty of being message bearers. There is an example of the visitation to Mary (19:17) and those messengers that came to Prophet Abraham and his wife with the news of a child (51:28) and the destruction of the people of Lot (51:32; 29:31-32). It is also no surprise that the emissaries to Prophet Abraham did not eat the food served to them (51:27), as messenger angels arguably don't / have no need for earthly food (25:20-21).
Regards,
Joseph
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When referring to stories in the Quran, my understanding is that they are ahistorical. The stories of the Qur'an are known oral stories circulated in the Prophets context. They were utilised generally for another purpose, ie. To bring give examples of God's judgement if people do not repent.
And to communicate that message, local stories were used. Most logically thinking people would see quickly that the Qur'an does not read as presenting History
Dear Zack,
As-salamu alaykum
Albeit I concur that the Quran does not indeed intend to be a ‘history book’, in my humble view, your overarching perspective (from what I understand) is incorrect from a Quran's perspective.
The stories are not meant to be ahistorical or be devoid of historical reality. Verse 28:3 and many others intend to make this clear.
028:003
“We narrate / recite to you from the news / stories Moses and Pharaoh in truth, for folk who believe.”
Other stories have been hedged with similar narrative expectations, that they are a rehearsal of an actual piece of historical reality.
012:111
"Verily, in their stories / histories there is a lesson for men of understanding. It is no invented story but a confirmation of what was before it and a detailed explanation of everything, and a guidance and a mercy for people who believe."
Regards,
Joseph
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“We narrate / recite to you from the news / stories Moses and Pharaoh in truth, for folk who believe.”[/i][/color]
Other stories have been hedged with similar narrative expectations, that they are a rehearsal of an actual piece of historical reality.
012:111
"Verily, in their stories / histories there is a lesson for men of understanding. It is no invented story but a confirmation of what was before it and a detailed explanation of everything, and a guidance and a mercy for people who believe."
Regards,
Joseph
For me, I try to realistically visualise the context such as the couple of verses above to understand them. Arabs who had little or no knowledge of the Kitab that was held by the Ahli Kitab. To those people who have sometimes been hearing stories NOT in the Kitab, even parchments being sold as if they are from Kitab, Muhammad is saying that the stories of Moses and Pharaoh ARE in the Kitab, the one held by the Ahli Kitab.
Remembering the same context, reading 12:111, I think we need to use the type of language being used. "A detailed explanation of everything"... The Qur'an certainly is not a "Detailed explanation" of the previous Books. A quick look at the number of pages and stories will answer that, nor is there any logical sequence.
I take away from such verses that the Qur'an is presenting that the message is inter-connected / integrated with the previous books, and the characters in the Qur'an are the characters within the previous books.
Beyond this, I personally do not base my conclusions only upon internal statements within the Qur'an..
Great to chat again,
Zack
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Dear Zack,
I supplied two verses as simple examples and clearly inferred that these were meant to be viewed as such (Verse 28:3 and many others intend to make this clear). I purposely did not intend to provide a comprehensive rebuttal to your understanding but merely a summary of my views based on my humble holistic understanding / study of the Quran.
Beyond this, I personally do not base my conclusions only upon internal statements within the Qur'an..
Then that may be our fundamental difference which is supported by arguably, our different approaches to the Quran.
I see the statements of the Quran as truth and revealed by God to a human messenger and thus, I do make my conclusions based on its internal statements as a believer.
Regards,
Joseph
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As far as I know Quranic stories are all meant to be historical (see the Sleepers of the Cave article where the historical correlation is described). Also, I like the idea that he was an angel. Maybe it's meant to signify that there are laws we don't understand, angels are not like us, and agents from the unseen world do things that might appear wrong but there's a reason. Also the Quran is guidance for mankind and probably not for angels.
http://quransmessage.com/travelogues/seven%20sleepers%20FM3.htm
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It's clear that the angel disobeyed the Quran, this is irreconcilable, but I posit that it doesn't matter because the Quran is not for angels.
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Maybe it's meant to signify that there are laws we don't understand, angels are not like us, and agents from the unseen world do things that might appear wrong but there's a reason.
Dear Amira,
I would personally incline to substitute the word 'laws' for 'events' in this particular case, but from what you have shared above, very plausible indeed. :)
I have a related post which may be of interest, God willing.
ANGELS (MALA'IKAH)
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/284730018330799
Regards,
Joseph
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Salam all
"Or have you thought that the companions of the cave and the inscription were, among Our signs, a wonder?" (18:9)
"We relate to you their story with the truth; surely they were youths who believed in their Lord and We increased them in guidance." (18:13)
"And they remained in their cave for three hundred years and exceeded by nine. Say: Allah is Best Aware how long they tarried. His is the Invisible of the heavens and the earth. How clear of sight is He and keen of hearing! They have no protecting friend beside Him, and He maketh none to share in His government." (18:25-26)
"And all we relate to you of the accounts of the messengers is to strengthen your heart therewith; and in this has come to you the truth and an admonition, and a reminder to the believers." (11:120)
"And when Our revelations are recited unto them they say: We have heard. If we wish we can speak the like of this. Lo! this is naught but fables of the men of old. They also said, ‘God, if this really is the truth from You, then rain stones on us from the heavens, or send us some other painful punishment.’ But Allah would not punish them while thou wast with them, nor will He punish them while they seek forgiveness." (8:31-33)
Saying that the story of Prophet Musa and his companian (peace be upon them) is just a tale to show Allah(swt)'s forgiveness and nothing more, can make you unaware of the brilliant guidance and admonitions that you can extract from it (and from any other story in the Quran).
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Just so people don't mis-quote or misunderstand me, I have never said anything negative about the Qur'an.
However the traditional approach, including it seems the consensus on this forum, is "The stories in the Qur'an are true because the Qur'an says the stories in the Quran are true." As the Qur'an is increasingly subject to critical thinking, as the Bible has been, people who have this position of "because the Qur'an says so" will probably be respected, but viewed as not having any substance to their belief. I am surprised with this, as a number of articles encourage us to "use our mind.," not blind faith.
However when we approach the stories of the Qur'an as I have suggested, that is its approach is to utilise existing oral stories to preach a message of repentance, the Qur'an can stand firm in a critical environment.
So just so I understand.... You believe that Allah revealed to Muhammad in a cave the historical events that occurred thousands of years earlier, correct? Even though the Hebrew people, who had been the custodians of these stories back to the time of Moses, did not view these stories in their history, the stories that Muhammad revealed superseded the understanding of how the Hebrews understood their own story?
I don't get that understanding from the Qur'an...... instead the Qur'an guards, confirms, affirms etc. the previous message.
Wasalam
Zack
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Dear Zack
Asalamu 3alykum
I think it is very clear from reading posts and articles that most people on this forum are not blind believers in the Quran. After one takes the oath to God that he/she has believed in the testimony of the Quran, then yes the stories in the Quran remain pure and true UNTIL proven otherwise. When I say proven otherwise which I am convinced they can never be, I mean in a scholarly academic way that presents undoubtable evidence.
The Quran will remain open to critical thinking, as I think many will agree the more one gives thought to the Quran the more one is convinced its the word of the Lord without any doubt(Alhamdulila Insha'Allah).
I think many before they claim to say "because the Quran says so" have somehow came to be convinced that the Quran is the word of God. It is after this has been acknowledged and in matters that are "unknown" or cannot be verified through history(cameras, etc) or real scientific logical evidence that they say "because the Quran says so".
Why should we deny the stories in the "Quran" when there is no reason at all to doubt it only that they may not be fitting to ones own worldly views. I mean if one really gives thought to the creation of ones own life it also cannot be fully understood but we exist. But in reality it does not fit with the worldly view. All we can say is that God told us how we were created in the Quran or Bible and we have no other way of figuring it out and no time machine to take us back. When the stories speaking about people living long lives, or prophets and messengers were sent with miracles it maybe hard to understand them, but we cannot disprove them.
Also God has His ways to show His signs to His creation. Something that believers just feel and understand but cannot explain.
Also I notice and feel at times that you think the Quran is prophet "Muhammad's(pbuh)" words and his thoughts and not the word of God, the same God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus(pbut)?, excuse me if I am under the wrong impression and I apologize.
If you really did believe it was the word of God, the same God who sent the Torah to Moses(pbuh) and Gospel to Jesus(pbuh) do you not realize what you maybe implying? That 3 different revelations with somehow different stories and at times in contrast with each other.
God is clearly saying the Quran is a confirmation of the message that went before it. But God also protect His words of the Bible through His final revelation at least what He deemed to protect.
Believers of the Scriptures can clearly see this. Its not that one is better than the other. Its just that one is newer and purer than the other. God's words do not contradict each other whether it is within the same Book or from a revelation to a revelation.
Believers believe the stories in the Quran over the differences in stories in the Bible not because we are favoring one over another. Its the fact that we believe that the one true God has revealed the Bible and also revealed the Quran. They both belong to Him. But it is God Himself who uncovered the faults and fabrications of the past. He is the One who had informed us that the Quran is a guard over any difference that is present. He also chose to use the Quran to protect His own message that went before it as people had fiddled with it.
We ultimately make no distinctions between any of them only we use the Quran as a final criterion to guard the truth and correct all the misconceptions that ever spread from the time of the Bibles ministry to the end of time Insha'Allah. In this capacity that the messenger Muhammad(pbuh) and the Quran are also a mercy and a guidance to the People of the Book.
I also think its safe to say that the God did not reveal or document every incident that ever happened about the Prophets and Messengers in the Bible.
Stories mentioned in the Quran that are not mentioned in the Bible should not be taken as fake or tales because the Bible is silent on the matter.
No one is saying that Allah(swt) is intending to reveal the historical events of the past. As brother Joseph stated that the Quran does not intend to be a historical book, but it is a Book that protects God's words and message if they had been twisted. And as a whole its been guarded.
You said "instead the Quran guards, confirms, affirms etc. the previous message."
Its really confusing sometimes that I hear that from you and then at times you do not believe that it also corrects some passages or some incidences that was said to be from God.
Take a look at this article about the exodus of Moses(pbuh) people[1] from a Quran's perspective compared to the exodus from the Bible's perspective.
If one says they believe in the Bible and the Quran to be from God then its clear that they have to choose one version of the story over the other to be the correct story. As I do not find you take this approach and I kindly respect that.
The Quran is admitting that its a confirmation of the message and truth with the People of the Book. That its the same God speaking to humanity once again. But at the same stroke also confirming that it corrects and guards the stories that were invented in the name of God from the people gone before the Quran. Any historical or message that is different between the two, the Quran should be taken as the truth not the other way around. Especially when you believe that both are from God otherwise something is problematic with this ideology.
Salam
[1]EXODUS OF PROPHET MOSES'S (pbuh) PEOPLE
http://quransmessage.com/articles/exodus%20of%20moses's%20people%20FM3.htm
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Peace Zack
If I may just clarify my last post incase it was not that clear as I find I was not that clear and please forgive me as its just a little late where I am.
Mainly I'm saying that I find your opinions are kinda surprising to me. I am not sure how you view the Quran as I get mixed feeling that sometimes you claim to believe in it but also at times you stand on the side of the Bible's interpretation when matters are in contrast. Also you seem to continually suggest that the Quran should not be viewed as a historical book at all, and should not be consulted when such topics about Moses or Jesus are discussed. That the Bible is the source to be viewed despite the Qurans contrasting message about them. This is the impression I get from you and I apologize if I'm wrong.
We must first all admit that there is no doubt that the Quran and Bible do have some differences in certain matters, as I'm sure you acknowledge.
If so, and if your views are accepted how can we say that the differences in the stories are from the same God when we know God is perfect and does not contradict His messages ?
Did God allow contrasting narratives within His revelations?
We have to be honest and either say that the passages in the Quran are false or the passages in the Bible are false when there is conflicting narratives. They cannot both be correct.
To also say that the Quranic narratives were not meant to be true or acurrate is not something that is warranted from the Quran as brothers Joseph and Ilker have provided verses to prove that they are true and actual historic events and not tales that were flowing around in Arabia that were meant to only deliver an overall messages of repentance and so on. So we have to rule that thought out completely.
Salam
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However the traditional approach, including it seems the consensus on this forum, is "The stories in the Qur'an are true because the Qur'an says the stories in the Quran are true." As the Qur'an is increasingly subject to critical thinking, as the Bible has been, people who have this position of "because the Qur'an says so" will probably be respected, but viewed as not having any substance to their belief. I am surprised with this, as a number of articles encourage us to "use our mind.," not blind faith.
Dear Zack,
As-salamu alaykum
Whilst I appreciate the notion of circular reasoning [1], I trust that you will agree that in any epistemic discussion there are points of established references. Without any common ground, a discussion would arguably be futile.
Regarding Islam from a Quran-centric position, if I am discussing the matter as a 'believer', then it should be no surprise to anyone that the primary source of reference (ultimate criterion) for me would be the Quran. I believe this much should be evident from the prolific writings on this forum and on this website in the main. I believe this approach would be no different for any other believer.
Between Christians, the references would be different as would be the case between two Jews, interfaith dialogue or discussions with an atheist. The points of references / criterion would change accordingly.
I confess that I may have misunderstood your position regarding the Quran and how you interpret its veracity along with its position amongst all the other scriptures; that is why I assumed that the Quran would remain our final criterion. I believe now that I was possibly mistaken in this regards, borne from what I feel are some of the sentiments you have shared over the course of your writings here on the forum.
I will of course be conscious of this in any future response I respectfully share with you.
Regards,
Joseph
REFERENCE:
[1] CURCULAR REASONING
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=252518648218603
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Dear Hamzeh,
As-salamu alaykum
Jazak Allah Khair for your thoughtful posts.
Regards,
Joseph
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I confess that I may have misunderstood your position regarding the Quran and how you interpret its veracity along with its position amongst all the other scriptures; that is why I assumed that the Quran would remain our final criterion. I believe now that I was possibly mistaken in this regards, borne from what I feel are some of the sentiments you have shared over the course of your writings here on the forum.
I will of course be conscious of this in any future response I respectfully share with you.
Regards,
Joseph
Sorry Br. Jospeh. When I read the quote from what I wrote it comes across quite negative and harsh of the Qur'an and this site, which is not at all where I stand. I can honestly say that I have referred the articles on this site to hundreds of people as, in my view, the premier website globally on themes within the Qur'an. Some of these people in turn I know have translated dozens of articles on this site in their own language.
Simply to summarize, I believe in the message of the Qur'an, with the Qur'an often utilising stories contemporary to the Prophet as the medium to communicate the message, with those stories based upon Prophets of history. With this, the focus is on the message, not the story.
Anyway this is how I can come to a position of the Holy Books in unity with each other which I am committed to.
This has been my position all along on this forum... sorry if I came across negative Duster & Hamzeh,
All the best,
Zack