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The Quran => General Discussions => Topic started by: Lobotomize94 on May 12, 2015, 10:59:30 AM

Title: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Lobotomize94 on May 12, 2015, 10:59:30 AM
The Qur'an mentions numerous times that the sun and the moon travel in an orbit, but does not mention once that the earth does too. This is consistent with a earth-centered (geocentric) view of the cosmos that places a motionless earth at the center of the universe and all "heavenly bodies" travel around the earth.


Tellingly, the sun's orbit is always mentioned in the context of night and day. This is a huge point here, it leads to the conclusion that it is probable that the author of the Quran believed in a geocentric view of the solar system.

Here is an example: 21:033
"And He is the One who created  the night and the day and the sun and the moon, each in an orbit

Notice how it puts together the motion of the sun and the moon and implies a relation of that motion with night and the day. I'm curious to know how this is reconciled? It seems to be the achilles heel here showing the author of the Quran clearly implies geocentricism over heliocentricism.

Arguing that God wanted to give something so that it could relate to 7th century Arabs and contradict modern science doesn't entirely work as surely that would make the Quran non-timeless as it contradicts what humans have come to found about the world God created (Heliocentric solar system and not geocentric)
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Wakas on May 13, 2015, 03:21:24 AM
Perhaps you might want to first begin with a more accurate rendering of the verse?

And He is the One who created the night and the daytime, and the sun and the moon, each/all in an orbit/rotation floating/swimming/rolling. [21:33]

Word in bold is an Arabic plural, i.e. refers to 3+.

#####

Bold emphasis mine:


Tellingly, the sun's orbit is always mentioned in the context of night and day. This is a huge point here, it leads to the conclusion that it is probable that the author of the Quran believed in a geocentric view of the solar system.

Here is an example: 21:033
"And He is the One who created  the night and the day and the sun and the moon, each in an orbit

Notice how it puts together the motion of the sun and the moon and implies a relation of that motion with night and the day. I'm curious to know how this is reconciled? It seems to be the achilles heel here showing the author of the Quran clearly implies geocentricism over heliocentricism.

Is there a factually incorrect statement in Quran or is it your interpretation you are asking about? Please clarify.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: good logic on May 13, 2015, 03:27:01 AM
Peace Lobotomise.

21;33 does not support a Geocentric view of the universe. It is pure assumption and misunderstanding.

Day and night means the earth is "turning" ,seasons means the earth is moving in an orbit just like all the other planets/stars/galaxies...

Where in Qoran do you find support of a Geocentric  view of the universe? Please quote the verse/s.

GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Sardar Miyan on May 13, 2015, 04:38:39 AM
Bro Lobotomise says that while the motion of Sun & Moon is mentioned in Quran but not that of Earth.
Then I just want to known as to how do the Day & Night occur?
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Lobotomize94 on May 14, 2015, 02:00:58 AM
Hello,

I think you may have misunderstood me, the argument is the fact that the Sun and Moon's orbits are almost always mentioned with the movement of night and day means that the author of the Quran was implying the the sun and the moon's orbit is the direct reason why we observe night and day. This is false, the Earth's orbit is the reason we observe night and day. And not once has the Quran mentioned the involvement of Earth's movement. This is telling.

Thanks
Lobotomize94
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: good logic on May 14, 2015, 02:46:36 AM
Peace Lobotomise.

When the "night and day are mentioned it means also "Earth ". i.e the verse/s is/are talking about earth .

 It is obviously emphasized in the verses that “night and day” also move in an orbit. The reference made to night and day in the Qoran is always related to the Earth’s night and day. In other words, what is actually stated in  these  verses is the fact that Earth also revolves in an orbit just like the sun and moon!

For a moment, think about the movement of the earth in the space. While the earth is revolving around the sun, night and day which always and together exist above the earth also revolve in an orbit around the sun. From this perspective, the verses have an extremely subtle expression.

GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Sardar Miyan on May 14, 2015, 05:38:27 AM
Salam Bro Wakas, Bro Lobotomise has given reply to your query therefore please answer so that we may also understand. Thanks
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Lobotomize94 on May 14, 2015, 08:00:10 AM
Peace Lobotomise.

When the "night and day are mentioned it means also "Earth ". i.e the verse/s is/are talking about earth .

 It is obviously emphasized in the verses that “night and day” also move in an orbit. The reference made to night and day in the Qoran is always related to the Earth’s night and day. In other words, what is actually stated in  these  verses is the fact that Earth also revolves in an orbit just like the sun and moon!

For a moment, think about the movement of the earth in the space. While the earth is revolving around the sun, night and day which always and together exist above the earth also revolve in an orbit around the sun. From this perspective, the verses have an extremely subtle expression.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Peace, Good Logic.

The problem is: it is not just about this verse. Throughout the Quran, the alternation of night and day is  always associated with the sun and Moon's movement only. This means those verses are implying a geocentric model of the universe!

Now with respect to Quran 21:33, I don't see how it is speaking of the Earth's motion too? The alternation of the night and day has nothing to do with the Earth in Quran 21:33. The problem is you were presupposing the motion of night and day to mean the Earth is moving-and I do not see that connection. Quran 21:33 can be parapharased as saying:

Look at the night and the day along with the sun and moon, they are pursuing a rounded course

The fact that the verse neglected to include the Earth in here is telling. Also the fact that the motion of the sun and moon are put next to the alternation night and the day implies that the author is painting a geocentric picture of the world. Is what I am saying here unreasonable because to me it sounds right?

Here is a GIF showing what actually happens:  http://media.giphy.com/media/3o85xsLCxgzMQ3q0zC/giphy.gif  (http://media.giphy.com/media/3o85xsLCxgzMQ3q0zC/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Sardar Miyan on May 14, 2015, 10:13:45 AM
Are the names of Lobotomise and Lobotobmize94 are the same person or different one? Please clarify.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: good logic on May 15, 2015, 04:54:25 AM
Peace Lobotomise.

GOD is talking to us . From our perspective "day and night" is earth s day and night. If the earth was not turning, there will be no day and night for us.

I really do not understand why you think differently, or why you are separating the "day and night" from earth?

GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Sardar Miyan on May 15, 2015, 05:28:12 AM
Bro good logic Bro Lobotomise is not disputing the change of Day & Night  but telling why is not mentioned in Quran to the effect that Earth is Revolving around its Axis and also around the sun.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: good logic on May 15, 2015, 05:48:45 AM
Brother Sardar.

That is exactly what GOD is saying.

If the earth was not turning in its axis ,there would not be any day or night.

What else can it mean?

GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Sardar Miyan on May 15, 2015, 06:30:38 AM
Bro Good logic, Though Allah describing Three aspects of 1- Day & Night 2- Sun 3- Moon but while telling about Flooting, the Earth is not mentioned alongwith Sun & Moon which is what Lobotomise is telling.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: good logic on May 16, 2015, 03:41:43 AM
Peace Sardar.
Yes I know he does.

So what is your point? Do you agree with him?

The fact remains that GOD means the "earth" when He mentions the "day and night".

Qoran does not support a Geocentric view of the universe, if you think it does ,give the verse/s that support this view.
GOD bless you

Peace.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Sardar Miyan on May 16, 2015, 05:48:03 AM
Day & Night means Earth we are telling but Lobotomise says where is Earth? We have to convince him
that Day & Night means Earth. It is clear in Ayah 21:33 No one " Day & Night No Two Sun No Three
Moon. All are segregated without naming "Earth".  Bro Lobotomise has to ponder upon this aspect.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: good logic on May 16, 2015, 01:33:42 PM
Peace Sardar.

Ah1 That is now a completely different thing. Sometimes we have to realise that we cannot convince ,nor are we here to convince anyone.

We all have the same Qoran, yet we understand it in different ways, why?

We have to keep pondering/studying/persevering/...to get our answer.

Some are on various steps of the journey,others  have not /no intention of starting any journey.others....Only GOD knows who is who...

All we can do is give our view/opinion/understanding...  .Then everyone is free to take or leave. They are also untitled to put their point of view .

At the end we can either agree or disagree.

Read all views, take the best and leave the rest.
What god has said /chose to say...is final,we cannot change it or replace it. However we are asked to study it /reason it...all of it, the content and the context!

GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: good logic on May 16, 2015, 01:38:11 PM
Peace Sardar.

My apology for writing " god" instead of "GOD". in my previous post.( I cannot edit!)

May GOD forgive me.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Sardar Miyan on May 16, 2015, 01:47:19 PM
Bro Lobotomise is not convinced with your presrntation but not me . Then why are you addressing me? Tell your points and convince Lobotomise who is not accepting "Day and Night " as Earth. I have
accepted Day & Night means Earth. Please convince Lobotomise. Thsnks
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: good logic on May 16, 2015, 09:00:46 PM
Peace Sardar.

Thank you. My posts are for all those reading this thread.

I understand you.

As I explained earlier I am not here to convince anyone.

GOD bless you brother.
Peace.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Wakas on May 17, 2015, 03:51:20 AM
Hello,

I understood you perfectly. Perhaps it is you who did not understand me perfectly.

... the argument is the fact that the Sun and Moon's orbits are almost always mentioned with the movement of night and day means that the author of the Quran was implying the the sun and the moon's orbit is the direct reason why we observe night and day. This is false, the Earth's orbit is the reason we observe night and day. And not once has the Quran mentioned the involvement of Earth's movement. This is telling.

In any case thanks for clarifying it is your own interpretation (the implication you refer to) that is false, and not Quran.


Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Sardar Miyan on May 17, 2015, 08:41:47 AM
Bro Lobotomise is not accepting the Quranic phrase of "Day And Night"which means " Earth". Without
mentioning the Earth Allah telling in Quran Day & Night
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Sardar Miyan on May 18, 2015, 06:01:27 AM
Here is another Ayah about Sun, Moon and Earth's movement but here also Allah mentions Day & Night instead of Earth. But it is clear that all the three are moving without interfering each other
36:40
لَا الشَّمْسُ يَنبَغِي لَهَا أَن تُدْرِكَ الْقَمَرَ وَلَا اللَّيْلُ سَابِقُ النَّهَارِ وَكُلٌّ فِي فَلَكٍ يَسْبَحُونَ
36:40
Neither is it allowable to the sun that it should overtake the moon, nor can the night outstrip the day; and all float on in a sphere.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Sardar Miyan on May 19, 2015, 07:12:32 AM
Bro Irfan has requested me to post his Blog on this Forum
<<21:33: And He it is Who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all (orbs) travel along swiftly in their celestial spheres"

What most of us will tend to ignore in this verse is that are FOUR things (sun, moon, night, and day) mentioned here—not two--that are created by Allah with reference to their "going around/orbiting" motion.  Sun and moon are obvious but what about "night" and "day"? Are they not moving/swimming in orbital motions as well?  Think about it.  The Qur'an says that the formation of night and day is a continuous process (cleaving from each other/racing to—13:2, 32:29).

The Qur'an is saying here that the night and day formation is a continuously changing process (cleaving from each other/racing to catch/passing by) without break (day and night always exist simultaneously in a dynamic way on different parts of the earth because of the “orbital” motion of light and darkness.  So, the verse 21:33 is exceedingly deeper in meaning.  In sum, it says that:

1.        THE EARTH IS ROUND.  How?  Well, because the night and day are ‘orbiting’ in a swimming-like motion

2.        THE EARTH IS MOVING AROUND ITS AXIS?  How?  If the earth were FLAT and STATIONARY, the night and the day would not be continuously ‘orbiting’ around the earth (yes Earth, not sun)—rather, they would be static switching places every six months on the only TWO faces—irrespective of the sun moving around the earth or earth moving around the sun!  Not a reality.  The fact remains that the Night and Day are created out of the axial motion of the earth and the night and the day are always there—‘swimming’ in their own ‘orbits’.  That is possible ONLY and ONLY if the earth were round and the moving on its own axis.

Three need our attention:  First, FOUR orbital motions are mentioned in 21:33, not two.  If there were only two, the Arabic word would be “kullaa or kullahuma” (for duality),---not “kullun” (for plurality—more than two). The word “Kullun” qualifies for more than two objects.  Second, the orbital motion of the images of night and the day would not be ‘orbiting’ if the earth were stationary and flat.

I hope the forgoing explanation answers not only the question that the earth is moving but it is moving on its own axis and that it is basically round (elsewhere the Qur’an says it is oval or egg-shaped).   

 

Here’s another ayah that supports the FOUR orbital motion routines for the sun, moon, night and the day:

36:40
It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor can the night outrun the day. All of them swim
along in their orbits. [The sun cannot pull the moon on to itself and the night and the
day cannot lengthen or shorten other than the appointed measure.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Lobotomize94 on May 22, 2015, 12:41:56 PM
I do apologize, everyone.

But none of the answers given were satisfying nor parsimonious. It seems like an elaborate scheme to save the accuracy of a very clear verse which like others in the Quran give the clear implication that night and day's motion is dependent on the sun and the moon's motion.

One argument mentioned here was that the that night and day orbiting in a swimming-like motion means the earth is spherical. It does not at all. The earth can be flat, and have a night and day orbiting in a swimming-like motion.

Consider the figure below:

(http://whaatnext.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/7e5d24b6cc20b8918bbd7d7210b51b8f-scaled6961.jpg?w=596&h=842)

Night and day are orbiting in a swimming like motion and the earth is flat in the above picture.

The second argument is that this verse is saying the Earth is moving around its axis because if the earth was flat and stationary, the night and day would not be continuously orbiting around the earth. This is again not a satisfactory answer. In the scenario of the above picture, the earth is stationary and night and day is continuously orbiting around the Earth.

Also Quran 36:40 is yet another example of how the Quran supports the scenario in the above picture (earth is flat and stationary, sun and moon move around the earth and night and day comes as the sun and moon move).

[Quran 36:40] It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor can the night outrun the day. All of them swim along in their orbits.

^This verse says the sun will not overtake the moon and then it goes on to say that night cannot outrun the day. Why again is the sun and moon mentioned with night and day? The most parsimonious explanation is the Quran is supporting an earth-centered view of the solar system. The sun and moon won't overtake each other so the night and day won't (because night and day are due to the sun and moon's motion) and so on.

Please do take this seriously and with enough intellectual honesty.

If God exists, we would not expect his revelation to be filled with such a severe error.

Again, I do apologize. My intent is gaining the most rational and parsimonious position, not an ad hoc and intellectually dishonest position. I seek only the most intellectually honest view, and it is not favoring Islam nor the Quran, nor theism.

Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: good logic on May 23, 2015, 02:13:46 AM
Peace Lobotomise.
I believe the Qoran does mention the earth spinning around its axis and that it revolves around the sun, and that the sun itself moves in its own orbit.

Please check out the following:

First:
 039.005 خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأرْضَ بِالْحَقِّ يُكَوِّرُ اللَّيْلَ عَلَى النَّهَارِ وَيُكَوِّرُ النَّهَارَ عَلَى اللَّيْلِ وَسَخَّرَ الشَّمْسَ وَالْقَمَرَ كُلٌّ يَجْرِي لأجَلٍ مُسَمًّى أَلا هُوَ الْعَزِيزُ الْغَفَّارُ

039.005 Khalaqa a(l)ssam[a]w[a]ti wa(a)l-ar[d]a bi(a)l[h]aqqi yukawwiru allayla AAal[a] a(l)nnah[a]ri wayukawwiru a(l)nnah[a]ra AAal[a] allayliwasakhkhara a(l)shshamsa wa(a)lqamara kullun yajree li-ajalin musamman al[a] huwa alAAazeezu alghaff[a]r(u)

 In verse 39.005 above, Allah says Yukawwir (to move in a ball motion, to cause revolve in a circular motion) the night around the day and the day around the night. This is a clear indication of a round earth.
 The second thing to notice is this: a(l)shshamsa wa(a)lqamara kullun yajree. And he made the sun and moon Yajree (Run) for a specific term.

 This is an indication to another Orbit which the sun follows, in other words the sun is in its own orbit too.
 The additional point is that it mentions TWO types of Orbits. A tight orbit referred to by Yukawwir (to revolve/wrap) and Yajree (to run in a circuit).

 Hence 30.005 gives us a spinning day/night in a tight orbit and a sun that runs around a larger circuit. But some would say this does not say whether the revolving earth is rotating around the sun or whether it is the sun that is rotating around the earth .

 Lets examine other verses to see what is revolving around the other.

 091.001 وَالشَّمْسِ وَضُحَاهَا

091.001 Wa(al)shshamsi wa[d]u[ha]h[a]
 ________________________________________
 091.002 وَالْقَمَرِ إِذَا تَلاهَا

091.002 Wa(a)lqamari i[tha] tal[a]h[a]
 ________________________________________
 091.003 وَالنَّهَارِ إِذَا جَلاهَا
By the Day as it shows up (the Sun's) glory;
 091.003 Wa(al)nnah[a]ri i[tha] jall[a]h[a]
 ________________________________________
 091.004 وَاللَّيْلِ إِذَا يَغْشَاهَا
By the Night as it conceals it;
 091.004 Wa(a)llayli i[tha] yaghsh[a]h[a]

 Verses 3 and 4 say that the Day reveals the Sun and the Night hides it (not the other way round where the sun reveals the day and hides the night) clearly indicating that it is not the sun that is revolving but the earth system that is revolving. The sun is relatively( from the earth point of view) stationary while the spin of the earth is that which hides and reveals the sun and causes the night and day.

 Second proof that the earth is rotating and Is spinning.

 025.045 أَلَمْ تَرَ إِلَى رَبِّكَ كَيْفَ مَدَّ الظِّلَّ وَلَوْ شَاءَ لَجَعَلَهُ سَاكِنًا ثُمَّ جَعَلْنَا الشَّمْسَ عَلَيْهِ دَلِيلا

025.045 Alam tara il[a] rabbika kayfa madda a(l){thth}illa walaw sh[a]a lajaAAalahu s[a]kinan thumma jaAAaln[a] a(l)shshamsa AAalayhi daleel[a](n)

 Do you not see how your Lord stretched/elongated/prolonged the Shadow, Had he so willed he would have made it stationary and we made the sun its guide/indicator.

 If the earth wasn't (a) Round and (b) spinning around its axis, the shadow would not have been elongated/retracted due to the suns effect.
 Just in case you might think the sun it is revolving around the earth, the verse says 'and he made the sun a guide/indicator to it'. Meaning the sun guides the orbit of the earth not the other way round.

 Without part 1 (the shadow effect) of the verse you could have argued that the earth revolves around the sun but the earth is not spinning.
 Without part 2 of the verse (the underscored part) you could have argued that the earth IS revolving around the sun but is not spinning on its axis.

 The two together give the complete and accurate account of what Science says is happening..


 Just in-case anyone is in doubt as to whether the Sun is in an orbit of its own and whether that orbit is circular or not.

 036.040 لا الشَّمْسُ يَنْبَغِي لَهَا أَنْ تُدْرِكَ الْقَمَرَ وَلا اللَّيْلُ سَابِقُ النَّهَارِ وَكُلٌّ فِي فَلَكٍ يَسْبَحُونَ

036.040 L[a] a(l)shshamsu yanbaghee lah[a] an tudrika alqamara wal[a] allaylu s[a]biqu a(l)nnah[a]ri wakullun fee falakin yasba[h]oon(a)


 The words  say each (including the sun) swims (asba[h]oon) in its own circular orbit (falak).

Swims implies  orbit and falak (which describes that orbit) implies a round or circular circuit.

GOD bless you.
Peace
 
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Sardar Miyan on May 23, 2015, 10:15:27 AM
Bro Goodlogic Bro Lobotomies is simply asking instead of directly telling EARTH why Allah is using so many other words?
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Sardar Miyan on May 23, 2015, 11:49:28 AM
Somewhere I remember to have read that the people of 7th Century might not have been able to understand that the Earth is round.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Irfan on May 25, 2015, 10:19:39 AM

I am participating in this forum after a long time.  Someone brought this 'geocentric" issue to my attention. Here is my take on the verse 21:33:

<<<21:33: And He it is Who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all (orbs) travel along swiftly in their celestial spheres"
What most of us will tend to ignore in this verse is that are FOUR things (sun, moon, night, and day) mentioned here—not two--that are created by Allah with reference to their "going around/orbiting" motion.  Sun and moon are obvious but what about "night" and "day"? Are they not moving/swimming in orbital motions as well?  Think about it.  The Qur'an says that the formation of night and day is a continuous process (cleaving from each other/racing to—13:2, 32:29).
The Qur'an is saying here that the night and day formation is a continuously changing process (cleaving from each other/racing to catch/passing by) without break (day and night always exist simultaneously in a dynamic way on different parts of the earth because of the “orbital” motion of light and darkness.  So, the verse 21:33 is exceedingly deeper in meaning.  In sum, it says that:
1.    THE EARTH IS ROUND, NOT FLAT.  How?  Well, because the Night and the Day are ‘orbiting’ in a swimming-like motion
2.    THE EARTH IS MOVING AROUND THE SUN AND AROUND ITS AXIS.  How?  If the earth were FLAT and STATIONARY, the night and the day would not be continuously ‘orbiting’ around the earth (yes, around the Earth—rather, they would be static switching places every six months on the only TWO faces—irrespective of the sun moving around the earth or earth moving around the sun!  This is not a reality.  The fact remains that the Night and Day are created out of the axial motion of the earth and the night and the day are always there—‘swimming’ in their own ‘orbits’.  That is possible ONLY and ONLY if the earth were round, moving around the Sun AND moving on its own axis.  How else can you have a 24-hour cycle of the day and the night!  If the Sun is moving around the Earth, then the day and night would be a 365-some day cycle!

In sum, the following points need our attention:  First, FOUR orbital motions are mentioned in 21:33, not two.  If there were only two, the Arabic word would be “kullaa or kullohuma” (for duality),---not “kullun” (for plurality—more than two). The word “Kullun” qualifies for more than two objects.  Second, the orbital motion of the images of night and the day would not be ‘orbiting’ if the earth were stationary and flat.
I hope the forgoing explanation answers not only the question that the earth is moving but it is moving on its own axis and that it is basically round.   

Here’s another ayah that supports the FOUR orbital motion routines for the sun, moon, night and the day:
36:40
It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor can the night outrun the day. All of them swim
along in their orbits. [The sun cannot pull the moon on to itself and the night and the
day cannot lengthen or shorten other than the appointed measure.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Sardar Miyan on May 26, 2015, 05:41:52 AM
In wiew of my explanation of 7th Century people's IQ & Bro Irfan's explanation Bro Lobotomies must have very well understood I suppose.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Irfan on May 26, 2015, 01:45:55 PM
IMHO, there is a sound reason why Allah did not mention the planet Earth being in orbital motion in 21:33 or elsewhere:  Geocentrism has been a very sexy idea for many centuries because ‘it made sense to the ordinary seeing eye’.  Imagine Allah telling everyone in the presence of 7th century audience that the Earth is in an orbital motion (just like the Sun and the Moon)!  This would have been an outrageous statement to digest back at the time of the revelation of the Qur’an. The only way, even for a true believer (let alone a Kaafir), would have been to have a total "blind" faith in Allah and his sovereignty---without any rationale--- even though Allah emphasizes the use of human intellect and reasoning.  The exposition of the earthly orbital motion would have turned even some believers away from the Qur'an because no one in the 7th century was seeing the Earth moving!  This would have been a 'crazy' thing to say in that day.  Nevertheless, consider this:  Allah never said in the Qur’an that the Earth is stationary either.  If He would have said that, it would have been an incorrect assertion--an assertion that was perfectly justifiable to the 7th century audience, but totally unjustifiable to a 20th/21st century audience.  So Allah, in His absolute knowledge kept silent about the motion of the Earth, knowing that the time will come that man will know the truth about the Earth's motion.  So here is the truth in our time--the verse 21:33 is ONLY understandable if we assume that:
(1) the planet Earth is round, not flat
(2) it is moving around its own axis AND,
(3) it is moving around the Sun, not the other way round
All this is possible by asserting that there are FOUR orbital motions, not two, in 21:33.
I hope this addresses the concern.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: hicham9 on January 04, 2016, 08:38:25 AM
Indeed @OP, the Qurān advocates a geocentric view of the fascinating (dualistic) world we were born into (Creation), and does in fact negate heliocentrism on many occasions.

For instance, nowhere does the textus give mention of a "spinning ball-earth" ! Instead the Author directs the reader's attention towards an extended plane that His Absoluteness, The Supreme Creator, made a stable, ground-floor/carpet for us to dwell upon.

Consider this: in Arabic, the locution "flat earth" translates as: ارض مسطحة

Adj. مسطح (fem. مسطحة) stems from the Arabian, šemitic verbal-root sṭḥ (سطح).

Now, take a look at the one and only occurrence of vb. سطح in the Qurān (88:20) :


افلا ينظرون ... الى الارض كيف سطحت

Do they not then look ... at the earth how was it flattened/leveled ?


The root سطح denoting flatness/levelnes is known in Arabic and well attested in the šemitic tree, like e.g., šṭḥ (ܫܛܥ) in Aramaic — adj. šṭīḥ (ܫܛܝܼܚܐ) means: flat — also, cf. šṭīḥūṯā (ܫܛܝܚܘܬܐ) = flatness, and šṭīḥāʔīṯ (ܫܛܝܼܚܿܐܝܬ) = in a flat way/form; ...

Natheless, the qurānic vb. suṭiḥat (سطحت) in 88:20 is oftentimes misconstructed by traditionalists as "spread" ! They try to hide earth's flatness/levelness (in the Korān) from the foreign reader. This, i suspect is done either intentionally or subconsciously (out of bias, as most Adamitrsadhere to heliocentrism nowadays).

سلام
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: A.H.A on January 05, 2016, 01:25:24 AM
Peace to All

The argument of Bro Lobotomize94, is same as the argument of flat Earth. People always use Q[88:20] to prove Quran supports Earth is flat. Here is what it says:

1 - Do they not look at the camels, how they were created? Q[88:17]
2 - And at the Sky, how it is raised high? Q[88:18]
3 - And at the Mountains, how they are fixed firm? Q[88:19]
4 - And on the earth how was it outstretched? Q[88:20]

The verses clearly not talking about modern men orbiting the Earth and watching from a space station, rather Arabs with their camels in a desert. Now, what do they see if they look?

1 - If they look at their right or left, they will see their camels.
2 - If they look above, they will see a blue sky.
3 - If they look around, they probably see mountains.
4 - If they look below, they will see the ground/surface of the earth or the desert.

Translating the word "الارض" to Earth (with capital E) is not really honest thing to do, because the Arab man can't see it, he can only see the surface of it not the whole planet.

As for Geocentric of the universe, imagine this:
1 - Muhammad comes and claims, I'm messenger of God. People: You're a liar, but maybe! :-\
2 - Muhammad who is already a liar in the eyes of his people, claims and makes a clear statement that earth is a planet. People: You're a liar and we have no doubt about it! >:(

As for 1, Muhammad can provide some arguments and convince his people, because this is his job.
As for 2, Muhammad can not prove his statement and he shouldn't have to, because this is not his job. The difference between a scientist and a prophet/messenger is like a hardware specialist and a software developer, respectively.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Hassan A on January 05, 2016, 01:45:44 AM
Salaam all.

Further to what brother/sister A.H.A said, I also find the argument of a flat earth to be lacking. The below answer sums up my view of the verses usually cited to support said view point:

https://www.quora.com/Does-the-Quran-say-that-the-Earth-is-flat/answer/Akbar-Hashmi-2?srid=t0CR&share=1

Having read the above, I believe the verses referring to the "flatness" of the earth to be a metaphorical. When you stand on the road, does the Earth not look flat to you? Indeed it does. But when viewed from outer space it's round.

Having said all of that, I share a similar sentiment with brother Joseph Islam when he made the following statement:

"The Quran was not meant to turn the desert people, to whom it was sent to, into future scientists, nor to present information which could only be verified 1400 years later by modern scientific developments. Rather, the purpose was to present arguments to the people to whom it was sent to in a way that their 1400 century minds could grasp, and in a way in which they, at that time, perceived the world around them, with a view to remove all doubts, so that they could better relate to them. It would be pointless, I would think, to present 'facts' which the desert Arabs could never verify. Neither would there be much point to present them with arguments which their minds at that time could not comprehend nor with details that they could never grasp."
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: good logic on January 05, 2016, 04:06:23 AM
Peace Hassan.

I think even today Qoran is presenting to us facts we do not comprehend nor can we verify:

" Yawma natwi assamaa katayyi ...lilkutub, Kama badaana awwala khalkin nueeduhu...etc.

What are we to make of this futuristic statement?

There are enough straight forward things to understand but there are also things which we have to remain patient about or leave for future generation  to unravel?

GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: samson on January 09, 2016, 08:29:46 AM
My view is that the Quran does support the geocentric model. It would have been easy for God to say that the Sun is the centre of the solar system and that the Earth rotates. But he didn't. The earth being the centre of the "universe" is a clear sign of God's power and it's extremely if not impossible to deny that only and entity such as God could be causing this. I believe God provides clear signs/evidences of his existence and power. These evidences are deliberately meant to defy science and logical reasoning because they are meant to stick out. If things were explainable via science then they would not be classed as divine/miracles. When Moses parted the sea it was a clear miracle. If we could do that ourselves then it would not be classed as a miracle but just a phenomena which people of that time were unaware of.

I think many people don't really understand the Quran when God says that it was He who created the Earth, the stars, created life, etc. When God does something it means it's divine and no one else can do and it's not natural. Take for example the simple phenomena of gravity on earth. Gravity is not a natural phenomena. Only God can create gravity and only he can cause mass to come together to form larger masses. The current scientific understanding is that stars form when dust clouds collapse and what causes the collapse is probably fluctuations in gravity. This is unproven. Scientists have done experiments to get dust and/or small particles to clump together to form bigger masses. They can't. The claim that all mass has gravity is unproven. Scientist cannot prove it. However many people just assume it be true since that's what the media will assume.

It's the same with life. Scientists simply cannot create life from scratch. Life is NOT a natural phenomena.It is only something that God can create.

Look up the science and read carefully what they have found.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: good logic on January 09, 2016, 02:15:55 PM
Peace samson.

You say:

My view is that the Quran does support the geocentric model. It would have been easy for God to say that the Sun is the centre of the solar system and that the Earth rotates. But he didn't.

There is also  the view that Qoran could have said that the earth is the centre of the solar system and that the earth is fixed. But He did not.
For me Qoran clearly supports the view that "earth is moving in an orbit" ,like all the other planets of the solar system. Day .night and seasons are the proof of that.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: hicham9 on January 09, 2016, 08:39:48 PM
I mean no disrespect but, last time i checked, "good logic" is a non-Arabic speaker who's never read/studied the WHOLE quranic text in its original language, as such i wouldn't take his word for anything here! The Quran advocate a non-rotating PLANATE earth. I'm a native Arabic speaker and a linguist/Arabist by profession currently working on a quranic lexicon, still don't take my word for it. Look it up yourself. Both the sun and moon are in motion in the Quran, and the earth a stable, outstretched plane.

Earth's flatness/levelness is an OBSERVABLE living FACT backed up by ground-based experiments (http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za05.htm) and high-altitude o (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tvhFbvY_99o)bservational evidence. Hence, the quranic question: Do they not then LOOK ?! (افلا ينظرون)

(http://airpano.ru/files/Stratosphere-Caucasus/images/image1.jpg)

سلام
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: good logic on January 09, 2016, 10:44:14 PM
Peace brother hicham.

Welcome to the forum.

Since your post mentions me, please allow me to clarify two things for you,so you and the readers are clear and have both views.

1--Ten years ago, your statement would have been correct. Since then, I made it my business to learn Arabic and study Qoran from cover to cover.
 I am happy to announce  I have now memorised most of the Qoran in Arabic.
Yes brother From surah "Alfatiha, to surah "Al-Naas", I am still rehearsing the "HM s" chapters as i am finding I need more practice with these surahs.
GOD willing I have made a target to achieve my goal of memorising all Qoran by this year- 2016- from cover to cover.
This is another project I wanted to add to my study of Qoran for my own benefit.
I am more than happy to meet with you and some volunteer witnesses to check my claim.

2- I do not claim to be an expert  or expect anyone to take my words as "facts" like you seem to imply about you. I always ask others to use "17:36" and check for themselves. Also Qoran is clear that knowing Arabic is not the most important factor to study/ learn Qoran:
2:118
وَقالَ الَّذينَ لا يَعلَمونَ لَولا يُكَلِّمُنَا اللَّهُ أَو تَأتينا ءايَةٌ كَذٰلِكَ قالَ الَّذينَ مِن قَبلِهِم مِثلَ قَولِهِم تَشٰبَهَت قُلوبُهُم قَد بَيَّنَّا الـٔايٰتِ لِقَومٍ يوقِنونَ

GOD is saying here "those you attain certainty", It does not mean those who understand Arabic!!!
5:68:
قُل يٰأَهلَ الكِتٰبِ لَستُم عَلىٰ شَىءٍ حَتّىٰ تُقيمُوا التَّورىٰةَ وَالإِنجيلَ وَما أُنزِلَ إِلَيكُم مِن رَبِّكُم وَلَيَزيدَنَّ كَثيرًا مِنهُم ما أُنزِلَ إِلَيكَ مِن رَبِّكَ طُغيٰنًا وَكُفرًا فَلا تَأسَ عَلَى القَومِ الكٰفِرينَ

GOD is saying here "whether one knows Arabic or not" most will not benefit from Qoran!!!!
7:146:
سَأَصرِفُ عَن ءايٰتِىَ الَّذينَ يَتَكَبَّرونَ فِى الأَرضِ بِغَيرِ الحَقِّ وَإِن يَرَوا كُلَّ ءايَةٍ لا يُؤمِنوا بِها وَإِن يَرَوا سَبيلَ الرُّشدِ لا يَتَّخِذوهُ سَبيلًا وَإِن يَرَوا سَبيلَ الغَىِّ يَتَّخِذوهُ سَبيلًا ذٰلِكَ بِأَنَّهُم كَذَّبوا بِـٔايٰتِنا وَكانوا عَنها غٰفِلينَ
Brother, it is obvious to you,since you know Arabic what GOD is saying here.i.e irrelavant whether one knows Arabic!!!
41:44:
وَلَو جَعَلنٰهُ قُرءانًا أَعجَمِيًّا لَقالوا لَولا فُصِّلَت ءايٰتُهُ ءَأَعجَمِىٌّ وَعَرَبِىٌّ قُل هُوَ لِلَّذينَ ءامَنوا هُدًى وَشِفاءٌ وَالَّذينَ لا يُؤمِنونَ فى ءاذانِهِم وَقرٌ وَهُوَ عَلَيهِم عَمًى أُولٰئِكَ يُنادَونَ مِن مَكانٍ بَعيدٍ

And similarly here!!!!
In other words GOD is saying:
56:79:
لا يَمَسُّهُ إِلَّا المُطَهَّرونَ
Hope that clarifies my side for you and the readers.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: hicham9 on January 09, 2016, 11:18:43 PM
Salute @GL,

1--Ten years ago, your statement would have been correct. Since then, I made it my business to learn Arabic and study Qoran from cover to cover.

You've been studying (post-quranic) MSA for ten years ! Wow !!!

Too bad, the Quran's original language is neither MSA nor Classical Arabic, but "Nabatean" Aramaic !

Quote
I am happy to announce  I have now memorised most of the Qoran in Arabic.
Yes brother From surah "Alfatiha, to surah "Al-Naas", I am still rehearsing the "HM s" chapters as i am finding I need more practice with these surahs.
GOD willing I have made a target to achieve my goal of memorising all Qoran by this year- 2016- from cover to cover.

Good ! Though memorization does not = understanding !


Quote
This is another project I wanted to add to my study of Qoran for my own benefit.
I am more than happy to meet with you and some volunteer witnesses to check my claim.

As an ex-sunni, i come from a society whereof most people memorize the Quran by heart, from infants to old people, yet most don't understand what they are parroting. So again, memorizing the Quran does not mean you understand the messages of the Quran.

Quote
2- I do not claim to be an expert  or expect anyone to take my words as "facts" like you seem to imply about you.

The Quran is crystal clear for the rational/objective reader, you just wish to foist your baseless/inherited "spinning/rotating ball" upon the clear text out of confirmation bias (to satisfy your inner ego).

Let the messenger speak for itself, brother.


Quote
I always ask others to use "17:36" and check for themselves. Also Qoran is clear that knowing Arabic is not the most important factor to study/ learn Qoran:
2:118
وَقالَ الَّذينَ لا يَعلَمونَ لَولا يُكَلِّمُنَا اللَّهُ أَو تَأتينا ءايَةٌ كَذٰلِكَ قالَ الَّذينَ مِن قَبلِهِم مِثلَ قَولِهِم تَشٰبَهَت قُلوبُهُم قَد بَيَّنَّا الـٔايٰتِ لِقَومٍ يوقِنونَ

GOD is saying here "those you attain certainty", It does not mean those who understand Arabic!!!
5:68:
قُل يٰأَهلَ الكِتٰبِ لَستُم عَلىٰ شَىءٍ حَتّىٰ تُقيمُوا التَّورىٰةَ وَالإِنجيلَ وَما أُنزِلَ إِلَيكُم مِن رَبِّكُم وَلَيَزيدَنَّ كَثيرًا مِنهُم ما أُنزِلَ إِلَيكَ مِن رَبِّكَ طُغيٰنًا وَكُفرًا فَلا تَأسَ عَلَى القَومِ الكٰفِرينَ

GOD is saying here "whether one knows Arabic or not" most will not benefit from Qoran!!!!
7:146:
سَأَصرِفُ عَن ءايٰتِىَ الَّذينَ يَتَكَبَّرونَ فِى الأَرضِ بِغَيرِ الحَقِّ وَإِن يَرَوا كُلَّ ءايَةٍ لا يُؤمِنوا بِها وَإِن يَرَوا سَبيلَ الرُّشدِ لا يَتَّخِذوهُ سَبيلًا وَإِن يَرَوا سَبيلَ الغَىِّ يَتَّخِذوهُ سَبيلًا ذٰلِكَ بِأَنَّهُم كَذَّبوا بِـٔايٰتِنا وَكانوا عَنها غٰفِلينَ
Brother, it is obvious to you,since you know Arabic what GOD is saying here.i.e irrelavant whether one knows Arabic!!!
41:44:
وَلَو جَعَلنٰهُ قُرءانًا أَعجَمِيًّا لَقالوا لَولا فُصِّلَت ءايٰتُهُ ءَأَعجَمِىٌّ وَعَرَبِىٌّ قُل هُوَ لِلَّذينَ ءامَنوا هُدًى وَشِفاءٌ وَالَّذينَ لا يُؤمِنونَ فى ءاذانِهِم وَقرٌ وَهُوَ عَلَيهِم عَمًى أُولٰئِكَ يُنادَونَ مِن مَكانٍ بَعيدٍ

And similarly here!!!!
In other words GOD is saying:
56:79:
لا يَمَسُّهُ إِلَّا المُطَهَّرونَ
Hope that clarifies my side for you and the readers.

Actually, you cannot correctly understand the Quran without learning its original language first, this is only factual ! The textus constantly proclaims itself to be in an evident, Arabian tongue ! Natheless, if you wish, i can point out some recent inputs of yours from FM whereof it's plain that you can't even understand basic Arabic.

سلام
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: good logic on January 10, 2016, 12:08:29 AM
Peace hicham.

First you say:

I'm a native Arabic speaker and a linguist/Arabist by profession .

Then you go on to claim,quote:
Too bad, the Quran's original language is neither MSA nor Classical Arabic, but "Nabatean" Aramaic !


Need I say more?

However I agree with you on this:
memorizing the Quran does not mean you understand the messages of the Quran.

But you omitted the part where I said "I have been studying Qoran for the last few years.

Brother,I hope you can see clearly that you are not being fair and hence I am choosing ,with respect, to close my conversation with you.

Readers can look at what we are both saying and make up their own minds.
With friendship and respect, I make this post my last reply to you.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: hicham9 on January 10, 2016, 12:26:13 AM
First you say:
I'm a native Arabic speaker and a linguist/Arabist by profession .

Then you go on to claim,quote:
Too bad, the Quran's original language is neither MSA nor Classical Arabic, but "Nabatean" Aramaic !


Need I say more?

This is quote mining (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Quote_mining) (contextomy), a lying tactic !

I said : I'm a native Arabic speaker and a linguist/Arabist by profession currently working on a quranic lexicon, still don't take my word for it. Look it up yourself.

Plz don't misquote me again !

Quote
But you omitted the part where I said "I have been studying Qoran for the last few years.

Your "study" depends on your level of aquaintance with the quranic tongue. And mind you, last time i checked, not even the very first word in the Quran (بسم) exist in the post-quranic Arabic you've allegedly been studying for a decade !

Reassess

سلام
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Star on January 10, 2016, 12:53:31 AM
I CANNOT BELIEVE THIS.

We all said we were done arguing over this ridiculous issue in the previous thread, so y'all went and started up the old one. Since this debate is obviously ongoing, I'm going to reassert what I said as my last reply in the previous thread.

This is what I said:

{Honestly, I'm about done with this. I was supposed to be studying, but instead I'm here writing out rebuttals to far-fetched conspiracy theorists.

Hicham9, I think the real problem is not that you believe the earth is flat. The problem is that you believe EVERY nonsensical "theory" the internet throws at you, like how the zombie apocalypse is about to take place, and NASA members are Freemasons, and aliens are about to take over the earth, and the planes flown into the Twin Towers were invisible, and the moon landing never happened. Seriously.

I'm going to quit arguing with you about the actual flatness of the earth, and instead I'm going to discuss your ideology.

Numero Uno: Don't believe stuff without verifying it. We believe that Joseph Islam's articles display the real Islam because they provide concrete evidence in favor of such a conclusion. They make sense, and they appeal to human nature in general. However, your conspiracy theories provide no such concrete evidence AT ALL.

Numero Deux: When you believe these theories, you're falsely accusing people of lying and deceiving others. You're attributing lies to others. Your theories were mildly amusing at first in a "Saturday Night Live" kind of way, but now they're just bizarre and disturbing, somewhat like Trump's speeches. You've gotten to the point where you're literally slandering people. And I am not amused. I don't think Hassan and Seraphina are amused either.

I don't even think Joseph can explain things to you now. You've kind of gotten to that point already. But if he could try working his magic, that'd be nice.

Please keep in mind the following verses:

“Surely Allah does not guide him aright who is a liar, ungrateful" -39.3

“... the curse of Allah be on him if he is one of the liars" - 24.8

24:15. When you were propagating it (lies) with your tongues, and uttering with your mouths that whereof you had no knowledge, you counted it a little thing, while with Allah it was very great.

24:16. And why did you not, when you heard it, say: “It is not right for us to speak of this. Glory be to You (O Allah)! This is a great lie.’

24:17. Allah forbids you from it and warns you not to repeat the like of it (lies) forever, if you are believers.

And read verse 17.36 again.


WAKE UP, PLEASE. YOU ARE NOT INCREASING MY FAITH IN HUMANITY.

I don't want to insult you, I want to teach you what makes sense and what doesn't. You need to start listening.}


I still hold that view. Hicham9, please start verifying and stop swallowing up everything the internet tells you.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: hicham9 on January 10, 2016, 01:03:38 AM
Hicham9, please start verifying and stop swallowing up everything the internet tells you.

I promise to stop aguing in favor of the truth (here), if you can actually stop whining like an immature child and stick to the topic at hand by actually providing at least one quranic passage in support of your inherited bubble.

We're not here to discuss andor believe what Mia666 WANTS us to discuss/believe !!!

Stick to the topic or spare me the irrelevant gibberish.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Star on January 10, 2016, 01:07:42 AM
Now I am going to address Hicham9's point that one cannot understand the Quran unless they understand Arabic.

First, the Quran is not in Aramaic. Jesus spoke Aramaic, which is a mixture of Hebrew and Arabic. Muhammad spoke Arabic. When you say that the Quran is in Aramaic, you are denying the fact that the Quran is in clear, truthful Arabic. Not Hebrew!

Second, Brother Joseph doesn't speak Arabic either, the last time I checked. He uses Lane's Lexicon for checking the meanings of words. Personally, I speak better French than Arabic, but I can still gain a really good understanding of what the Quran says, by using multiple reliable translations and checking them against the morphology of certain verses. I understand Quranic law pretty well. And guess what? I DON'T KNOW ARABIC.

*collective gasp of horror*

The Quran was revealed in Arabic for the desert Arabs to understand. However, linguists can easily translate it into other languages, and they've been doing it since Islam started spreading to non-Arabic-speaking parts of the world. The Quran was revealed as a guidance for the RIGHTEOUS (Beginning of Surah 2). "Righteous" includes both Arabic speakers and speakers of all other languages.

The Quran was not sent down for a specific race. It was sent down for EVERYONE who cares to listen to it.

And then, about the actual flatness of the earth. The Quran says that the LAND is spread out flat for us to build roads on. The word "ard" means land or the SURFACE of the earth. The Quran mentions the rotation of the sun and moon without mentioning the earth's rotation, but it never says that the sun rotates AROUND the earth. It's entirely neutral on this issue, I believe. And science tells us that the earth is round and goes around the sun. Why shouldn't we believe this HIGHLY OBVIOUS fact when we have concrete proof? Why should we invent nonsensical lies about the Quran, claiming that it supports the false geocentric theory? Don't you realize that God doesn't like this kind of behavior? Why should we attribute conspiracy theories to God and say that He supports them, when in reality, only delusional people support them?

This is probably going to be my last comment on this thread, unless I see something that desperately needs to be commented on. I sincerely want to change the outrageous and deceptive views of some of our members (*cough*), but if they're not going to listen, then I can't force them.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Star on January 10, 2016, 01:09:05 AM
About my comment that Brother JAI doesn't know Arabic: I'm pretty sure he doesn't, but if he actually does, I'm sorry. I wasn't sure if he actually did or not.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: hicham9 on January 10, 2016, 01:11:00 AM
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-2SpC3qvKKLs/Vo0TE-0tmrI/AAAAAAAAAgw/v9eZUtGKbEM/s1600/stratosphere_caucas_01_big.jpg)


افلا ينظرون ... الى الارض كيف سطحت

Do they not then look ... at the earth how was it flattened/leveled ?


The root سطح denoting flatness/levelnes is known in Arabic and well attested in the šemitic tree, like e.g., šṭḥ (ܫܛܥ) in Aramaic — adj. šṭīḥ (ܫܛܝܼܚܐ) means: flat — also, cf. šṭīḥūṯā (ܫܛܝܚܘܬܐ) = flatness, and šṭīḥāʔīṯ (ܫܛܝܼܚܿܐܝܬ) = in a flat way/form; ...

Natheless, the qurānic vb. suṭiḥat (سطحت) in 88:20 is oftentimes misconstructed by traditionalists as "spread" ! They try to hide earth's flatness/levelness (in the Qurān) from the foreign reader. This, i suspect is done either intentionally or subconsciously (out of bias, as most Adamites adhere to heliocentrism nowadays).
(http://airpano.ru/files/Stratosphere-Caucasus/images/image1.jpg)
Earth's flatness/levelness is an OBSERVABLE living FACT backed up by ground-based experiments (http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za05.htm) and high-altitude o (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tvhFbvY_99o)bservational evidence. Hence, the quranic question: Do they not then LOOK ?! (افلا ينظرون)

(http://www.toptenz.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/horizons-flatearth.jpg)
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Star on January 10, 2016, 01:13:28 AM
I want to clarify: THE QURAN DOES NOT EXPLICITLY STATE THAT THE EARTH GOES AROUND THE SUN. Neither does it explicitly state that the Earth is round, unless you consider the meaning of the word "dahaha" to  be "egg-shaped". It does not explicitly state any of this.

And it shouldn't. It is not a science book. It is religious scripture. It neither supports the geocentric theory or denies it. The Arabs believed in the geocentric theory at the time of revelation. The Quran didn't aim to change their views on science, because if Muhammad started saying the Earth was round and went around the sun, the Arabs would have called him a big liar. The Quran provided a neutral position on this issue, and there is wisdom behind this.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Star on January 10, 2016, 01:16:53 AM
Hicham9, no more pictures, please. You yourself claim that pictures can be edited and falsified. You are cherry-picking by providing pictures of your own. This is a logical issue.

And as I said: The word "ard" means "surface of earth" or "land", not earth. Yes, the Quran says the land was leveled/spread out for us to use it. It does not say the earth itself was leveled.
Why do you keep ignoring this fact? I should probably stop replying to you, but you are repeatedly ignoring the factual information that I'm giving you, and I can't let that go unnoticed.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: hicham9 on January 10, 2016, 01:29:05 AM
And as I said: The word "ard" means "surface of earth" or "land", not earth. Yes, the Quran says the land was leveled/spread out for us to use it. It does not say the earth itself was leveled.[/b] Why do you keep ignoring this fact? I should probably stop replying to you, but you are repeatedly ignoring the factual information that I'm giving you, and I can't let that go unnoticed.

Correction.

The equivalent of QA: ارض in English is earth [ ea/ʔ (ا) r (ر) th (ض) ]
This is because like ارض, earth in english denotes the same meaning/s and functions in the same way.

Moreover, the quranic term for land in specific (ie. In contrast with the sea) is br (بر) - not ارض !

Hope this helps.

سلام
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Duster on January 10, 2016, 01:29:34 AM
Second, Brother Joseph doesn't speak Arabic either, the last time I checked. He uses Lane's Lexicon for checking the meanings of words.

About my comment that Brother JAI doesn't know Arabic: I'm pretty sure he doesn't, but if he actually does, I'm sorry. I wasn't sure if he actually did or not.

Shalom / peace Mia,

I like your posts, but this comments are unfair>>>>especially if you are not familiar with bro Joseph's works or he hasn't made such a statement directly>>>> He only uses Lanes lexicon so that he can back up his point of view for the English speaking audience. This does not mean he doesn't know Arabic. He also doesn't simply use one lexicon but you should also see his posts and discussions with regards Arabic grammar....Look at this example, he also provides evidence from Arabic dictionaries too!!....

Thobe and jilbab - http://quransmessage.com/articles/thobe-jilbab%20FM3.htm
Also look at his discussions with those that don't know any or little Arabic:
http://quransmessage.com/files/forum%20pdfs/Do%20Animals%20Speak.pdf

>>>In the end, if he hasn't revealed much about himself and doesn't speak much about his background, then we shouldn't do this on his behalf. He has his reasons why he stays anonymous and we should respect that and not fill in the gaps.....>>>just my point of view, pls don't take offence. I don't think you meant any offence anyway....
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Hassan A on January 10, 2016, 01:49:08 AM
Salaam hicham9,

You're still at it, huh?
Well...am not here to convince you otherwise, It will be a waste of my time.
But I wish to touch on the following statement you made:

Quote
the real quranic term for land....

What do you mean by "real Quranic term"? Furthermore, as evident by the following verse, the word earth (ard) is used to mean 'land'. So....

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=30&verse=3
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Star on January 10, 2016, 01:51:37 AM
Salam Duster :)

You're right, it's possible that he knows Arabic. I was using him as an example to show that you don't need to speak Arabic to understand the Quran. That might be unwarranted. I didn't mean anything offensive, and if he actually does know Arabic, I apologize for assuming he doesn't.

Either way, the Quran is a guidance for the righteous, Arabic-speakers or not. But I'll refrain from citing people's backgrounds without evidence next time :)

Hicham9: It means "surface of the earth" in general terms. However it can also mean land:


30:2-3 - The Romans have been defeated. In the nearest/lowest LAND, and they, after their defeat, will be victorious.

As for the verse you cited, yes, a more specific term for "land" was being used. However, this does not exclude the possibility that "ard" can also mean "land" or "earth's surface" in a less specific way.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Star on January 10, 2016, 01:55:19 AM
Salam Hassan. I guess we've all joined the irrational fray again. Well well.

Quranic Arabic Corpus is a pretty good tool for checking the authenticity of translations, because word-by-word morphology rarely lies. You can twist around vague translations of verses to suit your preconceived notions, but it's a lot harder when you're translating word for word.

It's a nice site for non-Arabic speakers to understand the Quran, my dear Hicham9.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: hicham9 on January 10, 2016, 01:56:57 AM

What do you mean by "real Quranic term"? Furthermore, as evident by the following verse, the word earth (ard) is used to mean 'land'. So....

As already mentioned, QA: ارض functions the same as En: Earth, ie. in a general sense. It can denote the earth as a whole (used with def. article), or a land/rural area (indefinite).

In 88:20, the author used the definite form, hence the earth as a whole is the intended meaning.


The equivalent of QA: ارض in English is earth [ ea/ʔ (ا) r (ر) th (ض) ]
This is because like ارض, earth in english denotes the same meaning/s and functions in the same way.

Moreover, the quranic term for land in specific (ie. In contrast with the sea) is br (بر)  (http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(6:63:6))- not ارض !
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Star on January 10, 2016, 02:00:14 AM
Yes, "ard" can mean surface of the earth or land. It is unspecified. Words used in the Quran have multiple meanings, and we are expected to follow the best meaning. The best meaning of "ard" in this context is "land." This usage adheres to sense and science.

With due respect, please stop repeating arguments that have already been refuted.

Mia

Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Hassan A on January 10, 2016, 02:11:04 AM
Salaam mia666,

Quote
words used in the Quran have multiple meanings

You are absolutely right. And the context of those words will always determined what is being refered to.

If we look at the surah and verse you cited:

"The Byzantines have been defeated In the nearest land...."[30:2-3]

It is obvious that the word earth (ard) in the above verses, as per the context, refers not to the earth in general, but rather to the/a land.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: hicham9 on January 10, 2016, 04:05:20 AM
Be ye my guests and turn a blind eye to most occurrences of ʔl-ʔarḍ in the Qurān (الارض in 88:20 (http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1611.msg8332#msg8332) included) whereof the term clearly denotes the earth (http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=ArD) as a whole !

To ye be your dyn/judgement, and to me mine.

سلام
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Hassan A on January 10, 2016, 04:14:41 AM
Quote
turn a blind eye to most occurrences of ʔl.ʔarḍ in the Qurān (الارض in 88:20 included) whereof it clearly denotes the earth as a whole

First off, neither I nor mia666 dispute the fact the the word earth (ard) can also mean the earth in general. The point we were making is that when the word earth (ard) is used it can also be referring to a/the land. Context will always determine which of the two is being referred to.

Secondly, your usage of 88:20 to indicate that the earth is flat is incorrect.. As has already be alluded to:

"The surface of the earth i.e. earth’s crust is less than 30 miles in thickness and is very thin as compared to the radius of the earth which is about 3750 miles. The deeper layers of the earth are very hot, fluid and hostile to any form of life. The earth’s crust is a solidified shell on which we can live. The Quran rightly refers to it like a carpet spread out, so that we can travel along its roads and paths.

A carpet can also be spread on other than an absolute flat surface

Not a single verse of the Quran says that the earth is flat. The Quran only compares the earth’s crust with a carpet. Some people seem to think that carpet can only be put on an absolute flat surface. It is possible to spread a carpet on a large sphere such as the earth. It can easily be demonstrated by taking a huge model of the earth’s globe covering it with a carpet.

Carpet is generally put on a surface, which is not very comfortable to walk on. The Quran describes the earth crust as a carpet, without which human beings would not be able to survive because of the hot, fluid and hostile environment beneath it. The Quran is thus not only logical, it is mentioning a scientific fact that was discovered by geologists centuries later."
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Star on January 10, 2016, 04:53:40 AM
Hassan: Exactly. The Quran is not saying that the planet itself is flat. Besides, nearly all celestial solid bodies the size of planets are spherical. They have to be, because gravity pushes them into that configuration. They couldn't exist otherwise, with the forces of gravity at work.

Hicham9: I can see that you are never, ever going to be convinced. You have rejected all of our evidence and used numerous logical fallacies in your arguments. You still have no evidence to back up your claims. You provided pictures, but you yourself say that pictures can be edited and falsified. You told us the Quran supports geocentrism and a flat earth, but this was due to a mistranslation, which we corrected. You have no more ground to stand upon. From my understanding, this absurd "debate" is over, since you refuse to see the obvious. Well, we tried our best to convince you. We cannot do anything more.



Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Hassan A on January 10, 2016, 05:04:44 AM
Salaam all,

I agree with what mia666 shared in her last comment. I too m done with this "debate", as well.

Peace.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: hicham9 on January 10, 2016, 05:04:59 AM
Hassan: Exactly. The Quran is not saying that the planet itself is flat. Besides, nearly all celestial solid bodies the size of planets are spherical. They have to be, because gravity pushes them into that configuration. They couldn't exist otherwise, with the forces of gravity at work.

Nil but speculation and wishful thinking !

Quote
Hicham9: I can see that you are never, ever going to be convinced. You have rejected all of our evidence and used numerous logical fallacies in your arguments. You still have no evidence to back up your claims. You provided pictures, but you yourself say that pictures can be edited and falsified. You told us the Quran supports geocentrism and a flat earth, but this was due to a mistranslation, which we corrected. You have no more ground to stand upon. From my understanding, this absurd "debate" is over, since you refuse to see the obvious. Well, we tried our best to convince you. We cannot do anything more.

What you fail to grasp is that i've been a brainwashed heliocentrist like yourself for over two decades, ergo. If you think you're the only who's been indoctrinated by the schooling system and has a tv at home, then think again! I did not divorce "heliocentrism" and endorse geocentrism out of a whim, my lady, but for lack of basis in reality.

Not only have i revealed a definite quranic passage in support of a planate earth (i still have more), but i've also provided genuine, undistorted photographs and stable raw footages capturing the stationary flat earth from a high altitude at wide angle. Furthermore, scientific experiments detect no curvature at ground level (See experiments conducted by Parallax in Earth Not a Globe, &c.), and mind you, the surface of every body of water is perfectly flat. (See experiment conducted by Alfred Russel Wallace and John Hampden, described in Schadewald's publications, &c.) !!!

سلام
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: good logic on January 10, 2016, 05:27:15 AM
Peace mia ,Hassan.
Put your feet up while you are taking a break from posting.
I just wanted to share this information with you.. Relax and enjoy watching these clips about our solar system and the relationship between the sun,moon and earth,:
1- the earth rotation is not simple:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-DYgGFjI

2- More amazing facts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcQ5JZJ59g8

GOD bless.
Peace.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: samson on January 10, 2016, 07:12:52 AM
I want to clarify: THE QURAN DOES NOT EXPLICITLY STATE THAT THE EARTH GOES AROUND THE SUN. Neither does it explicitly state that the Earth is round, unless you consider the meaning of the word "dahaha" to  be "egg-shaped". It does not explicitly state any of this.

And it shouldn't. It is not a science book. It is religious scripture. It neither supports the geocentric theory or denies it. The Arabs believed in the geocentric theory at the time of revelation. The Quran didn't aim to change their views on science, because if Muhammad started saying the Earth was round and went around the sun, the Arabs would have called him a big liar. The Quran provided a neutral position on this issue, and there is wisdom behind this.


Sorry, but I would disagree. The Quran makes statements about our physical universe - things that can be proven/disproven by science. I think there's very little about the so called "spiritual" domain.

I don't think God worries about convincing people or changing their views or worrying if his messengers would be called liars. Messengers of God have been killed and ridiculed numerous times. It would be very unfair/illogical if God took a "neutral" position as it would be confusing and people would needlessly waste time debating things - well actually they do that already even though the Quran is extremely clear on certain things.

As I've said before, God in the Quran points out things He has done. Things which are miracles happening before our very eyes yet most people assume them to be natural. For example the creation/death of life, the formation of stars/planets, the stable sea level, the fixed mountains, the 2 bodies of flowing water fresh/sea water. My thoughts are that science will uncover more observations which will make it easier for people to accept the existence of God scientifically. However there will be many who will still refuse to obey God just as the Jews continued to disobey God even though they were shown clear miracles in front of their eyes. I guess this is why God says there some of us who are never going to obey God no matter what signs are shown to them and that even if they were to be returned to the earth they would sooner or later revert to disobedience.

Here's something which I think science will discover in the near future - According to my understanding of the Bible and Quran, the earth's crust is floating on water and it's only because of the mountains that earth doesn't move all over the place. So beneath the earth's crust we have the Deep as mentioned in the Bible. This Deep is free flowing water and is many times deeper than the oceans. This would explain where the water came from for the flood of Noah and how the sea level is kept stable and why we have "land tides" and why when we have earthquakes we sometimes see the land show a rippling effect.

Now if/when science discovers the above, is it going to make the non believers believe?



Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Hamzeh on January 10, 2016, 05:42:25 PM
Asalamu Alykum

Dear Hicham9

Now considering what your saying is true, that the earth is flat and not round, what happens when you reach any of the ends?

If one was to make a road from north to south, what happens when you reach the end of the south point?

I been on a plane before, and I'm assuming there is not only one direction a plane can take to get to a destination.
for example. If one was flying from Canada to China. Arguably there is two ways to reach China. By going west bound and crossing the pacific ocean or by going east bound crossing the atlantic and Europe. I am assuming the planes fly west bound because of its shorter distance.

Also if the plane keeps flying west across the pacific ocean eventually it reaches China. And if it keeps going west it crosses china and Europe and crosses the atlantic and eventually goes back to Canada. In a circle. Same goes if one was to travel north and south. It just keeps coming back to about the same location over and over.

In assuming the Earth is flat and has no curvature then what happens when someone reaches a dead end?

Peace
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Duster on January 10, 2016, 06:20:27 PM
Shalom / peace

I can't believe that someone would argue that earth is flat in this day and age. ....》》》 ISS goes around the earth numerous times a day.  Planes go around the earth numerous times a day....>>>baloonists go around the planet....modern travel on planes and ships go around the planet??? What is this ???mass conspiracy of people on the planet!!! Gosh i can't even believe this conversation is being had on this really high quality forum!
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: hicham9 on January 10, 2016, 06:32:28 PM

Can any heliocentrist here plz stick to the topic and advance at least one single qurānic passage in support of his/her imaginary "spinning/rotating ball-earth" ?!


(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-2SpC3qvKKLs/Vo0TE-0tmrI/AAAAAAAAAgw/v9eZUtGKbEM/s1600/stratosphere_caucas_01_big.jpg)

افلا ينظرون ... الى الارض كيف سطحت
Do they not then look ... at the earth how was it flattened/leveled ?


The root سطح denoting flatness/levelnes is known in Arabic and well attested in the šemitic tree, like e.g., šṭḥ (ܫܛܥ) in Aramaic — adj. šṭīḥ (ܫܛܝܼܚܐ) means: flat — also, cf. šṭīḥūṯā (ܫܛܝܚܘܬܐ) = flatness, and šṭīḥāʔīṯ (ܫܛܝܼܚܿܐܝܬ) = in a flat way/form; ...

Natheless, the qurānic vb. suṭiḥat (سطحت) in 88:20 is oftentimes misconstructed by traditionalists as "spread" ! They try to hide earth's flatness/levelness (in the Qurān) from the foreign reader. This, i suspect is done either intentionally or subconsciously (out of bias, as most Adamites adhere to heliocentrism nowadays).

(http://airpano.ru/files/Stratosphere-Caucasus/images/image1.jpg)

Earth's flatness/levelness is an OBSERVABLE living FACT backed up by ground-based experiments (http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za05.htm) and high-altitude o (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tvhFbvY_99o)bservational evidence. Hence, the quranic question: Do they not then LOOK ?! (افلا ينظرون)

(http://www.toptenz.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/horizons-flatearth.jpg)
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: good logic on January 10, 2016, 09:56:21 PM
Peace All.

I am making one last post in this thread .

Qoran does itself justice by using precise words. The context of what GOD says is so accurate that the challenge of:"You would never find contradictions in Qoran" is amazingly 100% true throughout the ages including the future.

Now, when GOD talks about the "day and night" in Qoran does this phenomenon represent earth or other planets/stars? Of course it means on earth. i.e earth.

When GOD talks about the mountains ,are they the earth mountains or other mountains on other planets...? Of course it means mountains on earth.

Establishing this simple fact from Qoran leads us to the following:

1--Earth is a sphere.  The Quran says that when the night and the day overlap, they make a ball (sphere):
 
خَلَقَ السَّمٰوٰتِ وَالأَرضَ بِالحَقِّ يُكَوِّرُ الَّيلَ عَلَى النَّهارِ وَيُكَوِّرُ النَّهارَ عَلَى الَّيلِ وَسَخَّرَ الشَّمسَ وَالقَمَرَ كُلٌّ يَجرى لِأَجَلٍ مُسَمًّى أَلا هُوَ العَزيزُ الغَفّٰرُ
[Qoran 39.5] [Allah] Created the heavens and the Earth in truth. He overlaps [Yukawer in Arabic] the night over the day and overlaps [Yukawer يُكَوِّرُ] the day over the night, and sakharra the sun and the moon. ALL MOVE (Kullon Yajree كل يجري) move to a prerecorded destiny. Is He not the Exalted, the Forgiver?

The Arabic word "Kura" means ball; its verb "Yukawer" means: to make into a ball. The Qoran says that the overlapping of the night and the day makes a ball (sphere).

Here also the Qoran is referring to ALL MOVING: not only the sun and moon but also ( night and day) Earth. In Arabic grammar there is difference between the singular (one), binary (two) and plural (three or more). The reference to binary is "Kulahuma Yajreean كلاهما يجريان" however the Quran said "Kullon yajree كل يجري" referring to the plural (three or more). Since the sun and moon are just two but the Qoran refers to three or more then according to the Qoran all the three move: sun, moon and ( day and night) Earth.

2--- The mountains are moving ,hence it means the earth is moving also:

"Wa tara Aljibaala( Mountains) tahsibuha ( You think they are) jaamidatun ( stationary), wa hiya tamurru ( They move/speed up)marra al sahaab( The same movement of the clouds).

For the sake of those who think Qoran says "maddadnaha " means  "flat", let us even give them the benefit of a doubt and assume it means" spread out". It still would not come anywhere near" flat". Why?:

[Qoran 50.7] And the earth We have spread it out (والارض مددناها), and set thereon mountains standing firm, and have produced therein every kind of lovely pairs (of plants).

The Qoran says that God spread out the Earth 'والارض مددناها' meaning increase in surface area during formation. 'Madda'( assume) in Arabic means 'spread out( remember it has other meanings ,but not "flat")', however it was mistranslated to 'flat'. Flat in Arabic is "musattah مسطح" and its verb (to make flat) is "sataha سطح" however neither were used in the entire Qoran.

 The Qoran says that God spread out Earth, that is, increased the surface area. Our solar system is 4.57 billion years old. Earth started accreting concurrently with the sun and our neighbouring planets 4.57 bln years ago. However during the accretion process the radius of Earth was not spontaneously 6400 km; but rather started a few kilometers long and progressively increased. But the surface area is a function of the radius, that is, as the radius increases the surface area increases (surface area = 4πR2). So the Qoran correctly described the surface area as increasing. (This is contrary to  using the wrong translation of "flat") .
Again we need to clarify this:
Nowhere does Qoran use the word "flat" for earth. i.e "sataha سطح" .

Anyway,for me, brothers and sisters,  Qoran is very precise and there are no contradictions in it .Especially with proven Science.

GOD bless you all.
Peace.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: samson on January 11, 2016, 01:03:27 AM
Earth started accreting concurrently with the sun and our neighbouring planets 4.57 bln years ago. However during the accretion process the radius of Earth was not spontaneously 6400 km; but rather started a few kilometers long and progressively increased.

What scientific evidence/experiments do you have that via accretion small bodies can form bigger bodies?

Once you look into it you'll find it's simply not possible. When we observe new stars being formed in space we are observing miracles.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: good logic on January 11, 2016, 01:49:59 AM
Peace samson.

I am not a Scientist nor a physicist. Therefore I provided some information that is out there from the Science people.

Now ,from Qoran s point of view ,it is irrelevant, as I said:

"Maddadnaha" if you take it to mean "spread out", it merely means "constructed" and not" flat".

Yes I do take GOD s word that the earth was "constructed". So yes, GOD constructed the earth or "spread it out" ,made mountains ,rivers and plants so it can be habitable for us and the animals.

Science is only trying to find out " the how the stars,planets...etc were formed".One can take it or leave it.

Thank you for your query.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Star on January 11, 2016, 02:27:35 AM
Hi everyone

Samson: God didn't mention in the Quran that the earth is round because He didn't think He needed to. And that's fine. We need to stop reading into the Quran to support our preconceived notions. The fact is that the Quran is absolutely neutral on geocentrism vs. heliocentrism, because there's no reason it should teach us science. The Quran was revealed to 7th century Arabs to teach them religion, not to destroy their ideas of science and magic.

Hicham9: The Quran is not meant to be a science book. It is silent on the issue of heliocentrism. It simply alludes to the fact that celestial bodies move, and it talks about how God spread out the land for us to live in, but it's not meant to teach us science, and we shouldn't read into it that way.
PERIOD.

The earth is not flat. Conspiracy theorists are leading you into delusion. Seriously. The earth is round, and it goes around the sun, and the tilt of its axis causes seasons. Day and night occur in different parts of the world at the same time. How would any of this happen if it were flat?! The constellations in the night sky that we can see change with time, seasonal and annually. How would THIS happen if the earth were flat?! And why should earth be flat when Mars and Jupiter and all other planets are round?! Gravity makes them round! It is a scientific impossibility that earth is flat. It is a logical fallacy. The experiments that you cited are merely mistakes and aberrations. They are easily refuted. Be careful what you believe.

I am leaving this discussion right about now.

Bye.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: samson on January 11, 2016, 04:34:54 AM
Science is only trying to find out " the how the stars,planets...etc were formed".One can take it or leave it.

I understand what you are saying. However I feel it's a shame that people don't look more into it. Most people/scientists assume things to be natural when in fact they are not. When scientists can't explain something it becomes a mystery or something that scientists will be able to explain in the future. Most will never entertain the idea that it's evidence of God.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: samson on January 11, 2016, 05:09:27 AM
Earth's flatness/levelness is an OBSERVABLE living FACT backed up by ground-based experiments (http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za05.htm) and high-altitude o (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tvhFbvY_99o)bservational evidence. Hence, the quranic question: Do they not then LOOK ?!

If the Earth is flat then why is it that when I phone someone in the evening in India it's dark over there but still light in the UK?
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: hicham9 on January 11, 2016, 05:22:16 AM
If the Earth is flat then why is it that when I phone someone in the evening in India it's dark over there but still light in the UK?

The sun luminary is small in relation to the vast earth !

It acts like a lamp (spotlight) that shines downward, locally illuminating as it moves in circles around its axis, coursing on the ecliptic above the earth. When it is over your head, it's day. When it's not, it's night !

Very simple.

(http://geoshifter.com/images/sun-hotspot-on-clouds.jpg) (https://youtu.be/WwimocU0IIc)
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: samson on January 11, 2016, 05:36:00 AM
If the Earth is flat then why is it that when I phone someone in the evening in India it's dark over there but still light in the UK?

The sun luminary is small in relation to the vast earth !

It acts like a lamp (spotlight) that shines downward, locally illuminating as it moves in circles around its axis, coursing on the ecliptic above the earth. When it is over your head, it's day. When it's not, it's night !

Very simple.

If it locally illuminates like a lamp then how come it illuminates the moon as well? How do you explain half moons, crescents, and red moons?
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: hicham9 on January 11, 2016, 07:09:16 AM
If it locally illuminates like a lamp then how come it illuminates the moon as well? How do you explain half moons, crescents, and red moons?

The moon is completely self-luminescent, glowing with it's own unique light.

Seen from the earth, it looks almost identical in size to its antipode, the sun, which is a truly remarkable coincidence in the heliocentric model, considering how far apart, and how much smaller the moon is said to be compared to the sun (Sun is meant to be 865,374 miles in diameter and 92,955,807 miles from the Earth, the Moon 2,159 miles in diameter and 238,900 miles from Earth) !

To make the Moon fit the copernican, heliocentric model they reversed it's observed direction from East to West, to West to East, and changed its speed from about 64,000 miles per hour to about 2,200 miles an hour.

Quote
“They want you to believe that the Moon's rotation is perfectly synchronized with its orbit so that's why we only ever see one side of the Moon, rather than conclude the obvious - that the Moon is simply NOT rotating. Moreover, they had to slow down the Moon's speed by 58,870 mph AND reverse its direction to West-East to successfully sell their phony heliocentricity system to a gullible public. I don't think there is one person in many, many thousands - regardless of education - who knows that the Copernican Model had to turn the Moon's observable direction around and give it a new speed to accommodate the phases and eclipses.” -Marshall Hall
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: hicham9 on January 11, 2016, 07:33:10 AM

“According to the globular theory, a lunar eclipse occurs when the sun, earth, and moon are in a direct line; but it is on record that since about the fifteenth century over fifty eclipses have occurred while both sun and moon have been visible above the horizon.”

-F.H. Cook, “The Terrestrial Plane”


“It is alleged by the learned that at a lunar eclipse the earth casts a shadow on the moon, by intercepting the light of the sun. The shadow, it is alleged, is circular, and as only a globe can cast a circular shadow, and as that shadow is cast by the earth, of course the earth is a globe. In fact, what better proof could any reasonable person require? ‘Powerful reasoning,’ says the dupe. Let us see. I have already cited a case where sun and moon have been seen with the moon eclipsed, and as the earth was not between, or they both could not have been seen, the shadow said to be on the moon could not possibly have been cast by the earth. But as refraction is charged with raising the moon above the horizon, when it is said to be really beneath, and the amount of refraction made to tally with what would be required to square the matter, let us see how refraction would act in regard to a shadow. Refraction can only exist where the object and the observer are in different densities. If a shilling be put in the bottom of a glass and observed there is no refraction. Refraction casts the image of the shilling UPWARDS, but a shadow always downwards. If a basin be taken and put near a light, so that the shadow will shorten inwards and DOWNWARDS; but if the rod is allowed to rest in the basin and water poured in, the rod will appear to be bent UPWARDS. This places the matter beyond dispute and proves that it is out of the range of possibility that the shadow said to be on the moon could be that of the earth.”

-Thomas Winship, “Zetetic Cosmogeny” (78)


“Astronomers tell us that the Moon goes round the Earth in about 28 days. Well, we may see her making her journey round every day, if we make use of our eyes and these are about the best things we have to use. The Moon falls behind in her daily motion as compared with that of the Sun to the extent of one revolution in the time specified; but that is not making a revolution. Failing to go as fast as other bodies go in one direction does not constitute a going round in the opposite one - as the astronomers would have us believe! And, since all this absurdity has been rendered necessary for no other purpose than to help other absurdities along, it is clear that the astronomers are on the wrong track.”

-William Carpenter, “100 Proofs the Earth is Not a Globe” (82)


Far from being a proof of heliocentricity, many facets of the Moon prove geocentricity and the flat earth. For example, though it appears to move East to West just like the Sun and everything else in the heavens, NASA says the Moon actually spins West to East at 10.3 mph while orbiting Earth at 2,288 mph, which combined with the Earth’s supposed 1,038mph spin and 67,108 mph orbit around the Sun "coincidentally" results in all motions perfectly cancelling out making the Moon seem to move across the heavens with similar path and similar speed as the Sun while always only showing us one side of its surface, and perpetually hiding its “dark side.”


“The Moon presented a special math problem for the construction of the heliocentricity model. The only way to make the Moon fit in with the other assumptions was to reverse its direction from that of what everyone who has ever lived has seen it go. The math model couldn’t just stop the Moon like it did the Sun, that wouldn’t work. And it couldn’t let it continue to go East to West as we see it go, either at the same speed or at a different speed. The only option was to reverse its observed East to West direction and change its speed from about 64,000 miles an hour to about 2,200 miles an hour. This reversal, along with the change in speed, were unavoidable assumptions that needed to be adopted if the model was to have any chance of mimicking reality.”

-Bernard Brauer


“Astronomers have indulged in imagination to such a degree that the moon is now considered to be a solid, opaque spherical world, having mountains, valleys, lakes, or seas, volcanic craters, and other conditions analogous to the surface of the earth. So far has this fancy been carried that the whole visible disc has been mapped out, and special names given to its various peculiarities, as though they had been carefully observed, and actually measured by a party of terrestrial ordinance surveyors. All this has been done in direct opposition to the fact that whoever, for the first time, and without previous bias of mind, looks at the moon's surface through a powerful telescope, is puzzled to say what it is really like, or how to compare it with anything known to him. The comparison which may be made will depend upon the state of mind of the observer. It is well known that persons looking at the rough bark of a tree, or at the irregular lines or veins in certain kinds of marble and stone, or gazing at the red embers in a dull fire will, according to the degree of activity of the imagination, be able to see many different forms, even the outlines of animals and of human faces. It is in this way that persons may fancy that the moon's surface is broken up into hills and valleys, and other conditions such as are found on earth. But that anything really similar to the surface of our own world is anywhere visible upon the moon is altogether fallacious.”

-Dr. Samuel Rowbotham, “Zetetic Astronomy, Earth Not a Globe!” (335)
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: samson on January 12, 2016, 04:52:21 AM
The moon is completely self-luminescent, glowing with it's own unique light.


If the moon has it's own light then why do we see crescents? Why do we see only the side which is facing the Sun? Is the moon spherical or a flat disc?

Another question. Why do countries which have a timezone difference of say a couple of hours but are separated by thousands of miles longitudinally such as the UK and South Africa see the Sun at about the same time? Does it no mean the spotlight of the Sun is pretty huge?

How big do you think the spotlight of the sun is? I'm all for geocentrism but I find the flat earth theory hard to accept. It may be true but so far it's not standing up to observations.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Truth Seeker on January 12, 2016, 05:16:04 AM
This thread has now been closed. Thank you all for your input.
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Joseph Islam on May 14, 2018, 05:32:53 AM
The Shape of the Earth

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2535



RELATED:

[1] THE SHAPE OF THE EARTH
http://quransmessage.com/articles/the%20shape%20of%20the%20earth%20FM3.htm
[2] FLAT-EARTH THEORISTS
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/1147453592058433
Title: Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
Post by: Joseph Islam on May 20, 2018, 03:01:44 AM
THE SHAPE OF THE EARTH
http://quransmessage.com/articles/the%20shape%20of%20the%20earth%20FM3.htm


The gist of the article is summarised below:

[1] The Earth was levelled and spread wide to make it habitable. This does not mean that the whole planet is flat.

[2] The Quran confirms Earth-like objects in the observable cosmos in verse 65:12. To date, all these earth-like celestial objects have been shown to be a sphere-like shape and not flat.

065:012
"It is God who has created seven/several heavens and of the Earth, the like of them."


[3] The focus of the Quran's narrative is not to provide evidence for the shape of the earth per se, but rather to ponder over the vast realms of God's creation, with a view to acknowledge Him as the Creator and Supreme authority.

[4] The Quran provides multifaceted examples through verifiable observations / perceptions of the planet and the wider cosmos. This does not imply that its intention is to primarily present challenging concepts that would be blatantly unacceptable to the understanding / sensibilities / perceptions of the people or to present novel scientific observations which were impossible to observe (53:49) or verify. However, these signs do incorporate 'Divine fingerprints' which could be better understood with the advancement of scientific discovery. After all, the Quran is a Scripture that needs to remain current, appropriate and consistent with time.

I hope this helps, God willing.
Joseph