QM Forum
The Quran => General Discussions => Topic started by: Sword on April 16, 2017, 09:19:34 PM
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Salam alaykum.
My dear brothers and sisters, please watch this video below and share your thoughts.
Sunni Muslims vs Quran Alone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dV4Oogq0djw
Regards.
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Dear Sword,
Wa alaikum assalam
Thank you for sharing this link.
In my humble view, the brother(s) that are arguing from a traditional perspective are correct on many fronts.
First of all, the argument regarding language is correct. I have discussed this in many of my writings and the post [1] below also summarises my position. The Quran cannot be understood without reliance on secondary sources.
In another post, I share the following:
- "Neither did the Quran invent a new language, nor was it intended to be a lexicon or dictionary. The Quran cannot be properly understood without relying on a vehicle to understand the language whether these are classical lexicons, spoken Arabic or else. Otherwise the Quran would be whittled down to something akin to Egyptian Hieroglyphics with no granodiorite stele such as the Rosetta Stone, or any other source to assist.
Therefore, the Quran simply cannot be understood based on the book itself. It would become meaningless. It would be like giving an Arabic Quran to a community of Chinese speaking folk who know nothing of Arabic or its script and to ask them to translate the Book and use it as guidance. It would arguably be a preposterous suggestion.
Therefore, I do believe that any 'source' that assists the understanding of the Quranic classical Arabic is implicitly ratified by the Quran (15:9) which assures the protection of the 'dhikr' which for me implies both the 'words' (kalam) and an appropriate ability to discern its meanings."
[2]
Furthermore, the question of the authenticity of the Ahadith corpus is also not founded on the unreliability of the classical Arabic language in which it is transmitted. Rather, it is founded on questionable content (matn) and transmission. The mere fact that the veracity of a particular hadith can be ‘questioned’ is proof that the ancient Arabic language in which the Ahadith is transmitted is accepted as reliable.
The other main point that was possibly being missed in the argument is that the 'Arabic language' or the 'authenticity' of the Ahadith corpus is not the main issue here.
From a Quran-centric perspective, the core contention is with the 'religious authority' of the secondary sources, especially in the corpus format we have received it today. The Quran provides no Divine religious authority for secondary sources as it does for itself. Utilising secondary sources to understand a language does not provide unfettered religious authority over all its contents. Therefore in the context of the video, just because one relies on secondary sources to understand the language of the Quran, does not automatically legitimise the secondary source corpus canonised centuries after the death of the prophet with Divine religious authority.
Sure, the secondary sources possess a wealth of wisdom and capture the practices of generations of Muslims in antiquity and how they interpreted the Quran in their respective eras, which we would be foolish to dismiss out of hand. However, this corpus does not equate to 'Divine Scripture' and should always be open to intellectual critique and academic rigour. A particular 'sunna' can also be time bound as discussed in the article [3] below:
Finally, the 'ayats' (Quranic verses) and the 'hikmah' (wisdom) are indeed two separate notions. Albeit 'hikmah' (wisdom) can be 'extracted' from the verses of the Quran and applied in different contexts (as would have arguably be done at the time of the prophet), this does imply they are one of the same. The traditional brother is once again correct with his argument in this regards. I have discussed this in article [4] below and respectfully assert that 'hikmah' clearly denotes the 'enlightenment' or 'wisdom' one acquires from an accumulated body of work or knowledge.
I hope this helps, God willing
Joseph
REFERENCES:
[1] TWO CRUCIAL DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE 'QURANIST' (ISM) AND 'QURAN-CENTRIC' APPROACH
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/542672849203180
[2] Quran followers put on notice!
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1252.msg5872#msg5872
[3] TIME-BOUND SUNNA
http://quransmessage.com/articles/timebound%20sunna%20FM3.htm
[4] DOES 'HIKMAH' (WISDOM) MEAN SUNNA OF THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD? (pbuh)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/hikmah%20FM3.htm
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Peace Sword.
Thank you for the link.
In my opinion,the "Quranist" has not used the argument that GOD put in Qoran properly .
Point number 1- Hikmah ,here is what GOD says about Qoran and Hikmah:
36:2 وَالقُرءانِ الحَكيمِ Qoran is Hakeem
10:1 الر تِلكَ ءايٰتُ الكِتٰبِ الحَكيمِ
3:58 ذٰلِكَ نَتلوهُ عَلَيكَ مِنَ الـٔايٰتِ وَالذِّكرِ الحَكيمِ
Hikmah is contained within Qoran itself,it is not outside it.
Point number 2 "Litubayyina linnas" is also contained in Qoran, i.e Qoran ( Coming through you ) will do this
26:2 تِلكَ ءايٰتُ الكِتٰبِ المُبينِ Qoran is mubeen.
5:15مُبي يٰأَهلَ الكِتٰبِ قَد جاءَكُم رَسولُنا يُبَيِّنُ لَكُم كَثيرًا مِمّا كُنتُم تُخفونَ مِنَ الكِتٰبِ وَيَعفوا عَن كَثيرٍ قَد جاءَكُم مِنَ اللَّهِ نورٌ وَكِتٰبٌ نٌ
The messenger is Qoran.
36:69 وَما عَلَّمنٰهُ الشِّعرَ وَما يَنبَغى لَهُ إِن هُوَ إِلّا ذِكرٌ وَقُرءانٌ مُبينٌ
i,e Messenger only brought Qoran.
Which leads to point number 3- Nothing else but Qoran:
6:51
وَأَنذِر بِهِ الَّذينَ يَخافونَ أَن يُحشَروا إِلىٰ رَبِّهِم لَيسَ لَهُم مِن دونِهِ وَلِىٌّ وَلا شَفيعٌ لَعَلَّهُم يَتَّقونَ
"Bihi" is Qoran alone.
So,as far as the topic of that debate is concerned,Qoran should be the only source of "authority.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Thank you for sharing your thoughts Br. Joseph. I have a question for you however: You view the authenticity of the hadith corpus as irrelevant
in light of it being unsanctioned by the Quran. I would like to know however, how exactly do you view its authenticity? Is it mostly legitimate with perhaps a few errors in transmission, or mostly incorrect? Is there any way to gauge this? (e.g. Can/should we use Quran to see if some hadith are incorrect?) Besides academic study, what is the role they should play in our daily lives? While it may not be the biggest issue, I would argue that the authenticity of the hadith corpus is important to consider.
Regards
wanderer
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Dear Wanderer,
As-salamu alaykum
You ask a very good question.
The authenticity of the Ahadith corpus is irrelevant from a 'religious authority' perspective. Even if the Ahadith were 100% authentic, this does not imply they have 'religious Divine sanction' for all humanity. For example, even the prophet had personal desires, likes, dislikes and was a product of his culture, community and setting within a certain slice of history. For example, if the prophet was born, say in China today, would he wear a thobe (dishdasha), use a miswak and / or ride a camel? Would he apply generic Quranic verses in exactly the same manner in different societal contexts and given the varying needs of different communities with the same outcomes?
It is clear in my mind from my humble efforts studying the Ahadith literature and its provenance, that there are all sorts of influences on the corpus. Some may be pious additions, some a question of transmission errors, capture, some narratives biased with theological, political and sectarian viewpoints reflecting the milieu in which this corpus was filtered through the hands of fallible human beings. Of course, there may also possibly be many Ahadith that correctly capture the actual sentiments reflecting a particular practices and beliefs of believing communities in antiquity.
I have long argued that the 'Quran-centric' approach never dismisses any vestige or body of knowledge but engages with it, using the Quran as the criterion / filter / sieve. However, I also believe that for anyone to engage with a corpus such as the Ahadith, they should / must have a very good understanding of the Quran and the messages it imparts. It would be a futile endeavour to attempt to discern any body of knowledge / thought (particularly one that espouses to be of theological / religious significance such as the Ahadith) if one's understanding of the discerning criterion (The Quran) is weak.
In my humble view, the Ahadith corpus does have pearls of knowledge and wisdom. But it also has much which appears wholly incongruent with the Quran's guidance / verses / message. If anything, the Ahadith corpus can provide us insights into how the believers of antiquity practiced and understood their religion. This may have some significance in our daily lives or in particular Islamic cultures.
This corpus may also be of some academic value to understand the practices / thoughts of a certain people in antiquity even if some / much of the contents appear dubious. As I have shared on my website:
"It would, therefore, be improper to ignore or underestimate the significance of the Ahadith literature as a historical source even if its authenticity may appeal doubtful. The modern Occidentalists are of the opinion that in spite of the fact that Apocrypha are of doubtful authenticity, we can still peep through them into the social life and behaviour of their fabricators, hence their significance as a source of history should not be denied. Similarly, even such portions of the hadith material as have been declared fake, unauthentic and of doubtful nature, contain most valuable hints regarding one or the other aspect of the early Islamic society" [1]
I have a Facebook post which you may also find interesting. I share an excerpt of humble note:
"Assess the traditions that have reached you in whatever culture you live in. Do not simply dismiss them but sharpen the ability to discern. Those traditions of your culture that fall within the spirit and guidance of the Quran, be free to embrace it. Those that do not, respectfully leave it aside or curtail your involvement in it." [2]
Regards,
Joseph
REFERENCES:
[1] SINGH. N.K, Encyclopaedia Historiography of the Muslim World, Global Vision Publishing House, First Edition 2003, Page 319
[2] MY HUMBLE ADVICE
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/213495468787588
[3] The Approach Towards Hadeeth and Sunnah
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=497.msg1610#msg1610
[4] HOW I ENGAGE WITH THE SUNNAH AND WIDER ISLAMIC SECONDARY SOURCES SUCH AS THE AHADITH CORPUS
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/258274607643007
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Peace Sword.
I would like to add one very important point to that debate,if I may.
GOD has clearly defined for us the role of Qoran and has shown us why GOD s argument in Qoran is the best.
Basically Qoran is all we need for our redemption/salvation.If anything else was important and essential for our salvation GOD would have told us to follow/use it. GOD did not forget to mention anything else:
19:69 وَما نَتَنَزَّلُ إِلّا بِأَمرِ رَبِّكَ لَهُ ما بَينَ أَيدينا وَما خَلفَنا وَما بَينَ ذٰلِكَ وَما كانَ رَبُّكَ نَسِيًّا
Does GOD say that Qoran is fully detailed,complete and instructs the prophet to use Qoran alone?6:19
قُل أَىُّ شَىءٍ أَكبَرُ شَهٰدَةً قُلِ اللَّهُ شَهيدٌ بَينى وَبَينَكُم وَأوحِىَ إِلَىَّ هٰذَا القُرءانُ لِأُنذِرَكُم بِهِ وَمَن بَلَغَ أَئِنَّكُم لَتَشهَدونَ أَنَّ مَعَ اللَّهِ ءالِهَةً أُخرىٰ قُل لا أَشهَدُ قُل إِنَّما هُوَ إِلٰهٌ وٰحِدٌ وَإِنَّنى بَرىءٌ مِمّا تُشرِكونَ
Warn all generations with this Qoran. 6:114-115
أَفَغَيرَ اللَّهِ أَبتَغى حَكَمًا وَهُوَ الَّذى أَنزَلَ إِلَيكُمُ الكِتٰبَ مُفَصَّلًا وَالَّذينَ ءاتَينٰهُمُ الكِتٰبَ يَعلَمونَ أَنَّهُ مُنَزَّلٌ مِن رَبِّكَ بِالحَقِّ فَلا تَكونَنَّ مِنَ المُمتَرينَ
وَتَمَّت كَلِمَتُ رَبِّكَ صِدقًا وَعَدلًا لا مُبَدِّلَ لِكَلِمٰتِهِ وَهُوَ السَّميعُ العَليمُ
GOD s words are enough for salvation.
GOD has provided His words for Adam to redeem him,and GOD does the same for all humans. He provides His words and insists they are sufficient for redemption.
The argument that Ahadiths are useful is nil as far as redemption is concerned. But if one argues there is some other use for them like science,harry potter,medical books,history books and all sorts of other books,then fair enough.
However the debate was not about discussing useful books, it was specifically about Qoran alone is enough.
If we believe in GOD,then we should believe GOD as well,His words never run out.
Watching that debate ,this verse came to my mind:( many are not satisfied to use Qoran alone- QORAN WAHDAHU- they need other materials!)
17:46
...وَإِذا ذَكَرتَ رَبَّكَ فِى القُرءانِ وَحدَهُ وَلَّوا عَلىٰ أَدبٰرِهِم نُفورًا
Just thought I complete the picture. (Wa tilka hujjatuna...Theses verses- and many other verses- are GOD s argument that He provides for us in Qoran to use Qoran alone)
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Dear Brother Joseph,
Can you clarify your third point about Hikmah, as I did not understand it.
Finally, the 'ayats' (Quranic verses) and the 'hikmah' (wisdom) are indeed two separate notions. Albeit 'hikmah' (wisdom) can be 'extracted' from the verses of the Quran and applied in different contexts (as would have arguably be done at the time of the prophet), this does imply they are one of the same. The traditional brother is once again correct with his argument in this regards. I have discussed this in article [4] below and respectfully assert that 'hikmah' clearly denotes the 'enlightenment' or 'wisdom' one acquires from an accumulated body of work or knowledge.
If wisdom can be extracted from the Quran would this mean that they are the same thing ? And What is the traditional brother correct about ?
You also said:
The authenticity of the Ahadith corpus is irrelevant from a 'religious authority' perspective. Even if the Ahadith were 100% authentic, this does not imply they have 'religious Divine sanction' for all humanity. For example, even the prophet had personal desires, likes, dislikes and was a product of his culture, community and setting within a certain slice of history. For example, if the prophet was born, say in China today, would he wear a thobe (dishdasha), use a miswak and / or ride a camel? Would he apply generic Quranic verses in exactly the same manner in different societal contexts and given the varying needs of different communities with the same outcomes?
If a hadith about the prophet's desires is 100% authentic, it would not imply that it has religious Divine sanction. I agree. But what about a hadith that is not about the prophets desires but instead about a clear command. (For example: X is Haram). If hypothetically speaking we consider it 100% authentic then it would follow that it has religious authority. As we cannot deny a command by the prophet, if we knew it was 100% authentic. What are your thoughts ?
Thank you
Regards,
Ahmed
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Dear Ahmad,
As-salamu alaykum
Please kindly see my responses to your questions in blue italics below:
If wisdom can be extracted from the Quran would this mean that they are the same thing ? And What is the traditional brother correct about ?
A verse of the Quran (ayat) and wisdom (hikmah) are not necessarily the same thing.
'Hikmah' is interpreted and can be applied and understood in a number of ways. This is irrespective of what a verse may potentially say. For example, there are numerous parables in the Quran. Wisdom can then be extracted and inferred from them. The argument of the Quran-alone brother appeared to be that a verse = hikmah as one of the same thing. This is not necessarily true and this is where the traditional brother was correct.
The traditional brother from the video was also correct when he argued his point linguistically that the conjunction ('wa') separates two separate notions (i.e. the Ayat and Wisdom) in verse 33:34. This is also supported by the Quran from a contextual perspective.
'Hikmah' has been mentioned numerous times in the Quran. For example, when God states that Prophet David was given wisdom (2:251), this does not mean he was given the verses of the Quran. This also applies to Luqman (31:12) and many other patriarchs / people mentioned in the Quran. Prophets received scriptures separately from wisdom (3:81). There are some / many today that potentially recite the verses of God but cannot extract wisdom from it.
Wisdom is a separate (often acquired) faculty.
Over the many years, I have seen the same verses with so many different nuances and applications. I have also seen the wisdom behind many verses which are simple commands. I am sure many brothers and sisters on this forum have also experienced this.
If a hadith about the prophet's desires is 100% authentic, it would not imply that it has religious Divine sanction. I agree. But what about a hadith that is not about the prophets desires but instead about a clear command. (For example: X is Haram). If hypothetically speaking we consider it 100% authentic then it would follow that it has religious authority. As we cannot deny a command by the prophet, if we knew it was 100% authentic. What are your thoughts ?
The Quran does not sanction any other source as with religious authority for believers. Therefore, no other source can add a command or instruction as 'Divine decree' which is not contained in the Quran. Therefore, your hypothetical question would appear problematic as a secondary source cannot purport to be 100% authentic and then with the same stroke, go against the Quran and add religious instruction / commands which the Quran does not support / mention. It is also noteworthy that a prophet could not make something haraam (forbidden) if God had not made it so. Verse 66.1 is a stark reminder of this.
I hope this helps, God willing
Joseph
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In addition, explanation of "hikmah" being from Quran: source (https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14594.msg135168#msg135168).
The way I see it, al kitab is to do with what is written, whilst al hikma refers to determining/judgement/wisdom - the stuff behind the scenes. They are most definitely both to be found in al quran. That is why al quran is not simply a long list of rules/regulations because if it were, there would be an endless list! I used to wonder why al quran had so much stuff not dedicated to rules/regulations, at first to me it seemed unecessary but I soon realised the genius of it. By providing lessons, insights/wisdom, a message within the stories/examples it relates, it provides us with a basic framework within which to base our judgement on. This is key. It is this that equips us to deal with ANY situation not explicitly mentioned in al quran.
This is used all the time in real life. For example the story about the boy who cried wolf. If one read it literally and never thought about the story, all they would get is the al kitab part, but if they reflect upon and learn the lessons within the story, they will grasp the al hikma part. Thus, as you can see a written text can have both.
Simple example:
17:39 That (singular: thalika) is from what your Lord has inspired to you of the wisdom.... (obviously referring to the previous verses of Quran)
Background reading:
Chapter 7 http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran_True_Sunnah_of_Messenger_Naveed.htm
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Dear Brother Joseph,
Thank you for you reply and clarification.
I agree that wisdom may not always mean the verses of the book. However there are many verses that state that indeed the verses = Hikmah. For example see the verses below.
[2:231]
... and the fact that He sent down to you the Book and Wisdom, for your instruction. And fear Allah, and know that Allah is well acquainted with all things.
Here wisdom was sent down like the book, implying that its synonymous with the verses of the Quran.
[3:58]
This, We recite to you of the verses and the Wise Remembrance.
[17:39]
That is of the wisdom your Lord has revealed to you ...
[36:2]
By the Wise Koran,
Furthermore "wa" can be also be used to provide further explanation, not only to separate two separate notions. For example:
[5:15]
... A light has come to you from Allah and a Clear Book,
The Light and the Clear book are the same thing.
So I think both views are correct. Wisdom may = the Verses and may mean the wisdom that is granted by God.
Do you agree with this conclusion ?
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Peace Sword.
May I also add that in my opinion the traditional brother was not right about "hikmah" in that verse meaning other than Qoran because the verse said " Litubayyina linnasi ma nuzzila ilayhum" .here it means clearly the Qoran only.
The traditional brother was implying that this "hikmah" was given to the prophet alone to be explained( in hadiths) to people!!!
Where as the verse is saying "Ma nuzzila ilyhum" not "Ma zuzzila ilyka". May I add ,even if it said "Ma nuzzila ilyka" it can only mean Qoran alone,because GOD would not have left out of Qoran what was meant to reach other people if it was "nuzzila" from Him,since GOD says "everything is in Qoran" -Kitaban mufassala".
Also where would that leave us? An infinite sayings of the prophet that can be claimed "Nuzzila Ilyhi"?
The door was already open,through misunderstanding GOD s words to various books claiming are the words of the prophet!!!
Students of Qoran ,in my opinion,should analyse this problematic interpretation of "hikmah" that GOD talks about in Qoran is not outside Qoran.
I shall come back ,GOD willing, with a comprehensive collection of Qoran verses that leave no doubt that "all "hikmah" talked about in Qoran is not outside the scriptures( GOD s words).
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Dear brother Ahmad
As-salamu alaykum
So I think both views are correct. Wisdom may = the Verses and may mean the wisdom that is granted by God.
Do you agree with this conclusion ?
Yes, I have absolutely no problem with this conclusion. This also supports my humble perspective where I said above:
"A verse of the Quran (ayat) and wisdom (hikmah) are not necessarily the same thing.". Please kindly note my reference to the phrase 'not necessarily' which supports your sentiment.
I feel it is always important to remember that wisdom entails broader understanding beyond the literal verse (which is also granted by God) and comes by the way of application after one has understood a body of knowledge / experience. This does not mean that one is sanctioning the Ahadith corpus with religious authority. I respectfully feel that those that claim otherwise (that wisdom is the same as the Quranic verses) have no warrant either in linguistics or Quranic context.
I hope that helps, God willing
Joseph
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Quote from good logic:
I shall come back ,GOD willing, with a comprehensive collection of Qoran verses that leave no doubt that "all "hikmah" talked about in Qoran is not outside the scriptures( GOD s words).
I shall start by 2:29:
رَبَّنا وَابعَث فيهِم رَسولًا مِنهُم يَتلوا عَلَيهِم ءايٰتِكَ وَيُعَلِّمُهُمُ الكِتٰبَ وَالحِكمَةَ وَيُزَكّيهِم إِنَّكَ أَنتَ العَزيزُ الحَكيمُ
"Yatloo" to them your verses...and teach them the book and wisdom and purfy/cleanse/...them.
Why the verses come first? Simply because without them there will be none of what follows,how?
Again ,simply because the verses(Qoran) contain everything. Yes including the "Hikmah" and whatever is needed for the salvation:
6:38...Ma Farratna Fi Al-Kitabi Min Chaain"... We did not leave anything out of the book(Qoran). Yes Al-Kitab is Qoran,this same book here:16:89
وَيَومَ نَبعَثُ فى كُلِّ أُمَّةٍ شَهيدًا عَلَيهِم مِن أَنفُسِهِم وَجِئنا بِكَ شَهيدًا عَلىٰ هٰؤُلاءِ وَنَزَّلنا عَلَيكَ الكِتٰبَ تِبيٰنًا لِكُلِّ شَىءٍ وَهُدًى وَرَحمَةً وَبُشرىٰ لِلمُسلِمينَ
This book-Qoran- Explation for everything.
Actually these two verses tell us that Qoran contains EVERYTHING, there is NOTHING else needed outside it. I do not need to go further than this to show that the "Hikmagh" debated on that video is included inside Qoran.
However, I shall continue ,GOD willing, to provide other verses to analyse and ponder .
In my opinion,there is no doubt that the traditional brother s argument in the video is nullified here.The prophet was not bringing to us wisdom from outside Qoran.
GOD bless.
Peace.
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Quote from good logic:
However, I shall continue ,GOD willing, to provide other verses to analyse and ponder .
Just to clarify ,the aim is to show from Qoran that the traditional brother s argument of "Hikmah" in the verse given by him is outside Qoran ,hence we should accept the prophet s sayings as well as Qoran is WRONG! i.e the prophet received other words from GOD besides Qoran and are meant to be used for our salvation as well as Qoran.
I start with this verse 33:2:
وَاتَّبِع ما يوحىٰ إِلَيكَ مِن رَبِّكَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كانَ بِما تَعمَلونَ خَبيرًا
Follow what is revealed to you.What has been revealed to the prophet for us?:6:19
قُل أَىُّ شَىءٍ أَكبَرُ شَهٰدَةً قُلِ اللَّهُ شَهيدٌ بَينى وَبَينَكُم وَأوحِىَ إِلَىَّ هٰذَا القُرءانُ لِأُنذِرَكُم بِهِ وَمَن بَلَغَ أَئِنَّكُم لَتَشهَدونَ أَنَّ مَعَ اللَّهِ ءالِهَةً أُخرىٰ قُل لا أَشهَدُ قُل إِنَّما هُوَ إِلٰهٌ وٰحِدٌ وَإِنَّنى بَرىءٌ مِمّا تُشرِكونَ
The most important witness(GOD) is witnessing that what was revealed to the prophet to be passed on to us is Qoran only (Hada Qoran). GOD did not forget to add other sayings or Hikmah that are not in Qoran!!! Do we believe GOD?11:1
الر كِتٰبٌ أُحكِمَت ءايٰتُهُ ثُمَّ فُصِّلَت مِن لَدُن حَكيمٍ خَبيرٍ
The wise has included His wisdom in Qoran.
Some may argue what about Luqman s wisdom? Luqman did not have "this Qoran"? Well GOD has detailed Luqman s wisdom in Qoran as a series of advice to his son. So yes, it is in Qoran.
The traditional brother/s ,may well argue and bring this verse,33:34:
وَاذكُرنَ ما يُتلىٰ فى بُيوتِكُنَّ مِن ءايٰتِ اللَّهِ وَالحِكمَةِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كانَ لَطيفًا خَبيرًا
Insisting the use of Arabic language entails that the verses and Hikmah are two separate things. Hence it implies to the sayings/teachings of the prophet.
Well, They may be right in that verses and Hikmah are two seperate things ,but they are both included in the "whole package" called the book(Qoran), like "Jaakum mina Allahi Nooran wa kitaban mubeen" the Noor is contained in the book,not outside it. Same as Hikmah.
Actually the fallacy that is committed by those who say "How do you believe in the legitimacy of Qoran but not Ahadiths is their lack of belief in All of the (words of Allah) book(Qoran) and their willingness to accept contradictions and abrogations.
My simple answer to them is that the prophet must have lacked Hikmah before "this Qoran" :12:3
نَحنُ نَقُصُّ عَلَيكَ أَحسَنَ القَصَصِ بِما أَوحَينا إِلَيكَ هٰذَا القُرءانَ وَإِن كُنتَ مِن قَبلِهِ لَمِنَ الغٰفِلينَ and other verses...He was "Dallan"...
They even say he was illeterate...etc
So the best argument one can give is if the Prophet received "Hikmah" it must have been from Qoran.
I shall continue,GOD willing,with this argument of GOD in Qoran that Qoran has everything to do with our salvation and nothing is required outside it, including Hikmah.
GOD bless.
Peace.
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hence we should accept the prophet s sayings as well as Qoran is WRONG!
Good logic .......where did the traditional brother say this in the video? He may be inplying this but the focus on the point of discussion was if ayat and hikmah were the same thing......
I think you missed the point on this thread too.....no one is saying hikmah means you have to accept the hadith .....hikmah can be beyond that...i think you are missing the point...again.
What is being agreed to is that hikmah can and may not be just the simple verses.
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It is precisely the point,
Claiming that "Hikmah " in that verse is anything other that GOD s "Hikmah" from His words.
Deviating to say verses is not the same as Hikmah is just an excuse to accept other than GOD s words for the brother in the tape.
Sorry Duster, this point needs to be made.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Sorry Good Logic ... but you are once again missing the point .... No one on this thread is stating that Hikmah is not from Allah's words... That's precisely the point ... it is .... It comes from it .... However, you think that just because we say that Hikmah comes from the ayat that we are automatically legitimizing hadith.... The traditional brother may be thinking that in the long run .. but he was right when he said that ayat is not the same as hikmah... I don't expect you to understand to be honest ... you seldom do in my personal opinion on a lot of matters ..... But my point needs to be made too buddy ....
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Duster, my subject was the tape and the traditional brother debating the verse/s with Hikmah.
Why do you assume it is for anyone else?
Again brother, I do not get your intention.
peace to you .
GOD bless.
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Good logic --- then show me form the tape where he says hikmah means all the hadith books .... Show me the actual time from the video ...
You don't get my intention ... I never get most of your arguments ....
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Peace Duster.
You know,if you watch all the video that he was saying also that it is not Qoran,when the other brother( marwan)said to him it is inside/included in Qoran.
Brother,I get the impression you are not happy with my posts. Fair enough,you are entitled to your view/feelings.
I have never meant to write them with the intention of making you angry/annoyed. I have also never intended them towards you otherwise I would have addressed them to you ,like this post.
To clarify for you, I do not mind you addressing me here,in any way you choose.
My intention is to discuss Qoran . I try my best to follow Qoran as well. So I apologise if I have annoyed you.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Good logic ...
The argument is whether ayat = hikmah - you seem to suggest that it is ...
Members on this thread say that this isn't always the case ....
I ask you again - show me in the video please where the brother says hikmah = hadith books.
You made an allegation.... "Deviating to say verses is not the same as Hikmah is just an excuse to accept other than GOD s words for the brother in the tape."
So please prove it.
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Peace Duster .
You are wrong here,quote:
The argument is whether ayat = hikmah - you seem to suggest that it is ...
This is what I said:
Well, They may be right in that verses and Hikmah are two seperate things ,but they are both included in the "whole package" called the book(Qoran), like "Jaakum mina Allahi Nooran wa kitaban mubeen" the Noor is contained in the book,not outside it. Same as Hikmah.
My argument is simply that Hikmah is inside Qoran.
For proof,read my posts again brother.
Peace to you.
GOD bless.
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Don't backtrack good logic. You know what I'm saying....if hikmah is not ayat, then how can it be in the Quran? Do you know how absurd you sound as usual in my ópinion?
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Asalamu Alykum
Dear brother good logic
You do seem to be kindly stating the same thing but at the same time giving a different impression.
I think we all understand that the hikma that God is referring to would be derived from the Quran and is not sanctioning any other books as a religious authority.
Wisdom from the Quran however could need to be further clarified and elucidated in simple terms and in different forms and concepts or charters. The Quran does at some point or points in life need to be interpreted and broken down to concepts and subject matters.
Although the people in the time of Prophet Muhammad understood the arabic they still needed to grasp the wisdom behind the verses. This is not something anyone can do by simple recitation, in my opinion however it really does need the help of God to grant wisdom to someone or people and without it to me its unfathomable.
Kinda off topic but how did or are people going to tell when Messengers or Prophet's came to them? They would recognize at least his words bare some sort of great wisdom and knowledge not the ordinary man can speak. Of course they would be sent with the Book but also given wisdom.
Now to say that the wisdom/enlightenment the Prophet was given from God to understand the Quran was not captured in any form or followed by righteous people or that it is not needed at all and thrown out is foolish and would be also akin to saying anyone who has been given wisdom from God today or any righteous soul that interprets the Quran using its own verses is never to be used and thrown out. Thats like starting from scratch every time after some wisdom was shared.
Brother Joseph's posts on this subject seem to capture all the right points Masha'Allah and it does seem that you are not letting the points get to you because your thinking the Ahadith are going to be sanctioned. Thats not the case.
The word "hikma"(wisdom) in verse 33:34 although can possibly rightfully mean the literal verses of the Quran as they are recited but also may be any wisdom(hikma) that would be extracted from the Quran and would not necessarily have the same literal wording as the verses(ayat) of the Quran. This is what I see you might be lacking to grasp and that any vestige of knowledge that we have concerning the verses of God maybe of good use Insha'Allah.
A verse(s) in the Quran may contain so much hikma(wisdom) that it might take pages or even books for a person or people to put it into writing and explain its meaning. This might call for the use of dictionaries and so on to understand the language it was originally in but does not mean that the Quran is not being used alone. It certainly is.
Sometimes the wisdom that the Quran contains will need to be researched and thought out using many other verses and connecting the dots to come to a reasonable concept. As you can see many good people have done this, and this is of course hikma(wisdom) that is from God given to people.
There also might be new hikma(wisdom) from the verses of God that will be unveiled in the present or future that would come to light. This would need to be explained and so on using peoples own words.
The Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) would of also had wisdom given to him from God.
As some may see, not everyone is given the ability to understand and explain the verses of the Quran. One would need the wisdom(hikma) to go along with it.
33:34 And bear in mind that which is recited in your houses of the revelations of Allah and wisdom. Lo! Allah is Subtile, Aware.
Although there is evidence that the way the verse is phrased that the wisdom is indeed in the verses of the Quran and not in any other sources at all. This is crystal clear. Here is an example from an excerpt of brother Joseph's article
"For example, in the following verse, we note:
055:068
"In both of them (are) fruits (Arabic: fakihatun) and (wa) date-palms and (wa) pomegranates"
Here the conjunction 'wa' (and) when used with date-palms and pomegranates only clarifies the 'fruits' and is not read as separate from the category of fruits (fakihatun).
Similarly, in verse 15:87 the 'great Quran' is only an elucidation of the 'several oft-repeated' description that has been used to describe its central core message."
However the verse in question 33:34 does seem to be asking the people of the house and/or the wives of the Prophet to bear in mind or to keep hold to of that which is recited/spoke in their houses of the verses of God and wisdom. The wisdom here could possibly be the knowledge and wisdom that was extracted from the Quran by the Prophet. This would not be the same literal verses of the Quran but the interpretation of the Quran's verses or some verses by the Prophet's of course by the will of God, as God is the One who gives wisdom to whom ever He pleases. Again this does not mean that it was everything or has any religious authority. That is why now I see a Quran-centric position is a powerful position indeed. Masha'Allah. Also the Quran does need to be interpreted and broken down to concepts and subject matters.
The wisdom of old can be passed down and new wisdom may be added and collected and combined, may God be willing. The Quran is the final judge and source for all right and wrong, true and false matters.
you said
"Well, They may be right in that verses and Hikmah are two seperate things ,but they are both included in the "whole package" called the book(Qoran), like "Jaakum mina Allahi Nooran wa kitaban mubeen" the Noor is contained in the book,not outside it. Same as Hikmah.
My argument is simply that Hikmah is inside Qoran."
Yes brother good logic they are not from outside the Quran but the hikma and noor thats contained in the Quran need to be published by way of either written down, typed, spoken or told to people to get the meanings. Which makes them separate in that way but also not limited to as although the verses in the literal form also have hikma and noor as well without any further clarification at times.
I think this is the point brother Duster was getting to as well. Insha'Allah we all agree.
Also just to share what I thought would be considered hikma, is imagine if one was asked the question "when does a new day begin in Islam?" The Quran does not in one line or verse detail the info of when a new day begins. Although the Quran does contain that information but in my humble opinion it would need wisdom to clear up the matter which God gives as a gift to whom He pleases. Masha'Allah
Peace and Blessings Insha'Allah
When Does a New Day Begin in Islam?
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1338.0
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Peace Hamzeh.
Here is my argument again summarised:
The traditional brother in the tape was not right in the context of what was discussed with the Qoran alone brother,because the subject was not "verses=Hikmah" topic. It was whether to follow Qoran alone or other sayings.
In that context , the argument that "verses is not Hikmah becomes incomplete,why? because the next questions will be "What is that Hikmah in the verse? And where is it?
The point I was making is this:
Saying verses = Hikmah in that tape needed clarifying to complete the argument.
Then I proceeded to quote what GOD s argument about "everything we need about our redemption is in Qoran".
This point needed to be made,that the "Hikmah" that GOD wants the prophet to pass on to us is only in Qoran, otherwise GOD would have mentioned it in His book that is complete,fully detailed and Hakeem.
So ,if we say there is hikmah elsewhere ,it becomes irrelevant as far the context of that debate is concerned,otherwise we believe in parts of the scripture and ignore other parts
Now if you or someone else is saying to me here we are only interested in "does verses= Hikmah" bit,then we are ignoring the context of that debate .
Other than that,I give my views and everyone else is entitled to theirs.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Peace Duster.
When you say ,quote:
Don't backtrack good logic. You know what I'm saying....if hikmah is not ayat, then how can it be in the Quran? Do you know how absurd you sound as usual in my ópinion?
It means I need to clarify/explain for you why Hikmah is in Qoran according to my understanding:
verses are the words of GOD .
Hikmah is understanding and applying these "verses" in our life.
GOD said ( yes in verses) that Qoran is complete,fully detailed ,has the explanations of everything. Understanding that NOTHING important to uour salvation is outside it is part of that Hikmah.
GOD also said He teaches Qoran and explains Qoran( yes in verses) . Nobody else can give you this Hikmah that GOD said only He can do.
Claiming that someone else can give us or has the Hikmah that is beneficial is not what GOD is saying in Qoran.
This is different from saying someone is following the "Hikmah" given by GOD.
Each one of us needs to believe that GOD alone does this through our own study/striving/pondering/ believing ...His verses asking GOD to give us the Hikmah. i.e Not relying on anyone else!
Hope that clarifies my view.
GOD bless you.
Peace
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In my view and once again good logic .....you add very little or nothing to this thread...with multiple straw man type arguments ....in my view, you are very quick to jump into threads with submitter or Rashad Khalifa arguments as you are his follower but you add nothing.at times when pushed ....
Therefore - is ayat the same as hikmah or not? If it is not, then it is something outside the Qur'an.....yes it may be derived from the verses of the Qur'an but it CANT be the same thing.
Simple ....prove it otherwise .....
Also i totally agree with what brother Hamzeh has said to you too...you may want to read his post again and maybe again!!
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Peace Duster.
What has this got to do with submitter or Rashad? Please stay on the subject of Hikmah and Qoran.
I have already said to you this is not about Hikmah= verses topic if you watch the tape again. This is about Hikmah being outside Qoran. I was making that point,but you are refusing to accept this and repeating "verses = Hikmah" means outside Qoran.
Read my posts ,I have already given you ample verses like:
Point number 1- Hikmah ,here is what GOD says about Qoran and Hikmah:
36:2 وَالقُرءانِ الحَكيمِ Qoran is Hakeem
10:1 الر تِلكَ ءايٰتُ الكِتٰبِ الحَكيمِ
3:58 ذٰلِكَ نَتلوهُ عَلَيكَ مِنَ الـٔايٰتِ وَالذِّكرِ الحَكيمِ
Hikmah is contained within Qoran itself,it is not outside it.
Aso this:
GOD said ( yes in verses) that Qoran is complete,fully detailed ,has the explanations of everything. Understanding that NOTHING important to our salvation is outside it. Including Hikmah.
GOD also said He teaches Qoran and explains Qoran( yes in verses) . Nobody else can give you this Hikmah that GOD said only He can do.
Now before I go any further, read also my last 2 posts. I have answered your questions already.
I have the feeling you have not read my posts properly. If you do not wish to do that,then fine but your argument will be unreasonable and unfair in that case.
However ,if you say you are not accepting my answers and my take on the verses I have given in my posts,then produce you counter argument to refute it. That is all I can say to you .
Peace to you.
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Good logic ...once again you evade the main point - go around in circles ...and provide nonsense in my opinion......
Where is the explanation ....the wisdom - the hikmah ....? Inside or outside the Qur'an...- if it is inside the Qur'an then these will be the verses not hikmah.....Even if Allah is providing the extra wisdom based on the verses ... they cannot be inside the Qur'an in the form of verses.....
What is the matter with you that you cannot understand a simple point?
I'm waiting for you to answer this...or admit that you have no answer.
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Peace Duster.
What do you mean by outside? Do you mean nothing to do with Qoran?
Without the verses,you cannot have Hikmah.
Hikmah , light,guidance are all part of the package called Qoran.
They are derived from its verses.
So far we both keep repeating ourselves. If you cannot accept the answers I gave you then either you or me are not clear about what is meant by outside!!! Outside to me means independent.
You see where you are not making sense to me when you say if Hikmah is not verses it is outside?
For me outside means outside Qoran,independent of Qoran,hence independent of its verses.
My answer to you ,hoping it will be clear for you this time is:
Since the Hikmah is dependent on the verses( derived from the verses) Hikmah is inside Qoran because the verses are Qoran.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Peace Duster.
What do you mean by outside? Do you mean nothing to do with Qoran?
Without the verses,you cannot have Hikmah.
Hikmah , light,guidance are all part of the package called Qoran.
They are derived from its verses.
So far we both keep repeating ourselves. If you cannot accept the answers I gave you then either you or me are not clear about what is meant by outside!!! Outside to me means independent.
You see where you are not making sense to me when you say if Hikmah is not verses it is outside?
For me outside means outside Qoran,independent of Qoran,hence independent of its verses.
My answer to you ,hoping it will be clear for you this time is:
Since the Hikmah is dependent on the verses( derived from the verses) Hikmah is inside Qoran because the verses are Qoran.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Please don't try to be naive ....
Outside means anything which is not EXPLICITLY stated in the Qur'an.... So if Allah gives 'hikmah' which is not explicitly stated in the verses of the Qur'an but derived from it ... then it cannot be inside the Qur'an ...
Now either accept the argument or stop going around in circles wasting time ... please !
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Peace Duster.
When you say,quote:
Outside means anything which is not EXPLICITLY stated in the Qur'an.... So if Allah gives 'hikmah' which is not explicitly stated in the verses of the Qur'an but derived from it ... then it cannot be inside the Qur'an ...
Derived from it is dependent on it ,hence in Qoran.
I do not see why you have a problem with that?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Yes its derived from the verses .. BUT THE DERIVATION IS NOT EXPLICITLY STATED in the Qur'an .. What is wrong with you Good logic ? ... Are you being intentionally awkward to prove a point that you don't have? As is usual ... your post seem nonsense to me.
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Thank you again Brother Joseph for you answer :)
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Asalamu Alykum
I think the point has been made clear after brother Joseph had given pretty much a detailed response of what hikma in verse 33:34 could mean and seemed to clarify lots of the matters and issues. Also he mentioned that the traditional brothers were correct on many fronts but did not mean they were correct in their ultimate motive.
In my humble opinion and with all due respect to everyone, that any other comments that do not target the main points and issues are diminishing the value of the thread. I always love to hear all the brothers and sisters comments but there is at some point where some comments are either repeated and exhausted or obscure the clarity of what has already been mentioned.
Sometimes if their is nothing new or convincing to be added then I suggest we just lean back and try to grasp what has been written unless really a valid point is to be noted or can be refuted, so it would make searching for answers very easy for anyone Insha'Allah.
As a reader of this site I would like to always see this forum on a high caliber level Insha'Allah as I really find this is a very valuable site Masha'Allah. May God bless it and its members.
I find you all have great comments and wisdom Masha'Allah, I learn lots from all your comments Alhamdulila and love to discuss and reason about Islam with all of you but I'm just reminding you that sometimes these kind of discussions often scare people away because they find no solid grounds or people who are firm on what they stand behind. It weakens the individual character and the trust of what has been said in the past.
May God bless you all for your efforts and Insha'Allah we all keep supporting this site with good character and evidence.
Salam :)
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Dear Duster.
The conversation is not getting anywhere. I will summarise my argument for you and the readers and leave it at that:
MY point was this:
a) The traditional brother was not right at any stage of the debate in my opinion because the context of the debate was to follow Qoran alone or other sayings(Any other)
b)The brother on the tape was not correct to separate Hikmah from the ayat to imply there is "other than Qoran"for us in both the context of the debate and the context of the Qoran. The subject of the debate was not verses = Hikmah and the technicality of the Arabic language.
Then I went on to show with verses from Qoran that Ayat,Hikmah Noor and Guidance...are one package ,all derived from one source ,GOD s words i.e Qoran . Separating any of them will open a can of worms for "other than Qoran" to be authority for the deen.
If people here are saying we are only focusing on is verses=Hikmah? Then this was not the context of the tape nor was the brother in the tape discussing just this particular aspect.
I also do not agree on the word outside" to some it implies independent of the Ayat which is wrong in the context of Qoran.
Conclusion of the argument:
1- The traditional brother was wrong in both in the context of both the subject and the Qoran that Qoran should be the only source.
2- You cannot separate the Ayat,the Hikmah.the Noor, the guidance... as they all depend on GOD s words (the Ayats).
3- The Hikmah that GOD puts with the ayat in that verse has only one source :The Qoran alone,hence GOD Alone.
4- If others .like the prophet had Hikmah ,it is because they followed the "Ayat" of GOD Alone.
Thank you for your conversation brother Duster.
Thank you all other members for your contribution as well.
GOD bless.
Peace.
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Good logic - you have just repeated your nonsense...This is really bad logic in my opinion and I disagree with your conclusions.... Enough said .....other members can make their own minds up.
As others have said too...brother Joseph's argument was best put and I also agree with him when he said the following....
I feel it is always important to remember that wisdom entails broader understanding beyond the literal verse (which is also granted by God) and comes by the way of application after one has understood a body of knowledge / experience. This does not mean that one is sanctioning the Ahadith corpus with religious authority. I respectfully feel that those that claim otherwise (that wisdom is the same as the Quranic verses) have no warrant either in linguistics or Quranic context.
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This thread has now been closed.
Duster - Just a side note. Although we or others may understand your frustrations with Good Logic's 'logic' or his arguments, please can we (as we have stated in private already) ask you to tone it down a little and your language.
Thanks!