QM Forum
The Quran => General Discussions => Topic started by: F on October 05, 2016, 02:58:52 AM
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Dear Joseph A. Islam,
Peace be upon you,
I read your article that Arab (Prophet Mohammad) is not from the offspring of Ishmael and Abraham as per your article http://quransmessage.com/articles/are%20the%20arabs%20descendants%20of%20abraham%20FM3.htm
I realized that you referred to verses from Quran that “the Arab forefather received no Warner before; Abraham was the father “in faith only” to the believers, etc…” I don't want to argue with you from Quran or Islamic resources because we may never reach any agreement. Therefore, I decided to argue with you from the Torah.
Deuteronomy (18:18) “I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.”
According to this verse, Allah told Moses that He will send a Prophet from the “Brothers of the Jewish”. Jewish are from the offspring of Isaac. Isaac’s brother was Ishmael. Therefore, Prophet Mohammad is from the offspring of Ishmael.
I hope that you are not going to dispute with me and say that the meaning of “Brothers of the Jewish” is “brothers in faith”.
I also read your article that you believe that the sacrifice son of Abraham was Isaac and not Ishmael as per your article http://quransmessage.com/articles/ishmael%20or%20isaac%20FM3.htm
Again I will discuss this topic with you from the Bible that tells us that the sacrificed son was Ishmael.
Genesis (16:16) Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore him Ishmael.
Genesis (21:5) Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him
This concludes that Ishmael was 14 years older than Isaac.
Genesis (22:2) Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.”
In this verse, Allah told Abraham to sacrifice his ONLY SON, and Isaac is mentioned in this verse. This contradicts the other two verses because the ONLY SON Abraham would had at that time is Ishmael. So, it seems to me that someone added the word “Isaac” while was not aware of the age of the two boys Ishmael and Isaac.
I verified these verses from the bible. However, I should give the credit to "Simon Alfredo Caraballo" for his great book “My Great Love for Jesus Led Me to Islam” because I learned this information from his book, page 30. His book is available online for free.
I would welcome your feedback. Thank you kindly for taking the time to read my post.
May the blessings of Allah be on all of the believers,
With great respect,
Brother Joseph: I am sorry that I am not highlighting important info because in fact the toolbar buttons are disabled on my account. I tried many ways to enable it but with no success.
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Asalamu Alykum
I think anyone on this forum or any Belivers would argue the best source to argue from would be the Quran.
Although the Quran is indeed a confirmation of what went before it there still remains areas or thought where the Quran corrects the understanding or fabrications of people before.
At times one will realize that what is in the Islamic tranditional thought is derived from purely the Torah or Bible. Which at times stands in total contrast of the Quran.
And at times one might find rituals or ideology that is derived purely from the Bible or Torah which the Quran remains silent about. However believers in the Quran would still take that as a requirement when the Quran does not deem it necessary.
The Quran is God's final message as you most likely already know which stands to correct the beliefs of the previous communities that God deemed neccessary and passed over much of what was invented in the name of God.
So if you find a topic in the Quran that the Bible or Torah differentiates with of course the Quran would be the authority and the protection of that topic.
If you see a concept/topic in the Quran and is also supported by the Bible or Torah know then this is further support to the concept/topic and maybe used as a evidence.
Also the verse you quoted from the Torah in Deuteronomy 18:18 in my humble opinion maybe referring to Jesus and not Muhammad (pbut).
Insha'Allah we will hear from brother Joseph in due time and Insha'Allah in the mean time I will get back to your other topic regarding Abrahams two sons.
Peace and blessings Insha'Allah
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Dear F,
Peace be upon you too.
Albeit, I feel that I could respectfully argue against your post from the Bible / OT, it is something that I feel would be futile from my humble perspective in the context you have kindly shared. I also agree with the gist of brother Hamzeh's sentiments.
You have claimed to share your position from the Torah by citing certain verses and choosing particular interpretations (notwithstanding contentions). I have respectively presented my humble position from the Quran, the final testament for believers and religious authority. With respect, the readership can make their own minds as to the most cogent perspective.
Unfortunately, this is not a post that I would be willing to entertain further. Therefore, please kindly accept my response as my last to you on this matter.
Regards,
Joseph
RELATED:
[1] ARE THE ARABS AND PROPHET MUHAMMAD (pbuh) REALLY DESCENDANTS OF PROPHET ABRAHAM? (pbuh)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/are%20the%20arabs%20descendants%20of%20abraham%20FM3.htm
[2] PROPHET ABRAHAM'S (pbuh) SACRIFICIAL SON - ISHMAEL OR ISAAC? (pbut)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/ishmael%20or%20isaac%20FM3.htm
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Dear all,
Pease be upon you,
Hamzeh said in his post: “Also the verse you quoted from the Torah in Deuteronomy 18:18 in my humble opinion maybe referring to Jesus and not Muhammad (pbut).”
I appreciate your opinion and it seems to me that the proofs I provided from the Bible and Torah were not satisfactory for you. Therefore, I’ll first explain the question you asked about, and then explain with proofs from Quran that Prophet Mohammad is indeed from the offspring of Prophet Abraham, and Ishmael was indeed the sacrificed son (if Allah wills).
Deuteronomy (18:18): I will raise up for them a prophet LIKE YOU from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.
Please read the verse carefully, Allah told Moses that “a prophet LIKE you”. Therefore the Prophet that Allah spoke about must be like Moses. Jesus is different than Moses. Moses birth was naturally, he came from a father and a mother, while Jesus came from only a mother. Therefore, indeed the prophet that Allah spoke about here is Mohammad.
Let's now discuss whether Mohammad is from the offspring of Abraham or not from Quran:
(57:26) And We verily sent Noah and Abraham and placed the prophethood and the scripture among their seed, and among them there is he who goeth right, but many of them are evil-livers.
I noticed that Brother Joseph said in his original article “In verse 57:26, the seed (Arabic: Dhurriyyati) of Prophets Noah and Abraham (pbut) are mentioned. No names of the seed are mentioned.”
Please note that Allah said in this verse "and placed the prophethood and the scripture among their seed". Since Mohammad is a “Prophet”, and Allah sent to him the scripture “Quran”, therefore, he is automatically from the offspring of Abraham as to what the verse is telling us. Also, Allah did not mention names of Prophets in this verse because He said in (40:75) that there are many prophets came before Mohammad that Allah did not mention their names (at all) in Quran.
(40:75) Verily We sent messengers before thee, among them those of whom We have told thee, and some of whom We have not told thee;
I also noticed in Joseph’s article that he did not mention verse (4:54) or even said anything about it which in my opinion is the clear evidence that Prophet Mohammad was from the CHILDREN of Prophet Abraham.
(4:54) Shakir: Or do they envy the people for what Allah has given them of His grace? But indeed We have given to Ibrahim's CHILDREN the Book and the wisdom, and We have given them a grand kingdom.
Allah said in this verse that He gave “Ibrahim's children”:
1. the Book
2. and the wisdom
3. and We have given them a grand kingdom.
Therefore, Prophet Mohammad is indeed from the children of Prophet Abraham.
I also read article “DARUD SHAREEF PRAYER”
http://quransmessage.com/articles/darud%20shareef%20prayer%20FM3.htm
I noticed in this article that Joseph said “It is worth considering that if Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and his family were descendants of Prophet Abraham, (pbuh) why are they excluded from the 'Al' of Prophet Abraham (pbuh) in the 'Darud Shareef' prayer which is clearly dealing with two separate progenies?”
Well, I’ll be very cheerful to explain the reason.
In our prayer, we say:
1. Greetings and prayers to Allah
2. Peace be upon you, O Prophet, and Allah’s mercy and blessings be upon you
3. Peace be upon us and upon the righteous servants of Allah
4. I bear witness that there is no god but Allah and I bear witness that Muhammad is His Prophet
5. I copied this part from Joseph’s article which I agree with it “O God, let your blessings come upon Muhammad and the family of Muhammad (including his progeny), as you have blessed Abraham and his progeny. Truly, you are Praiseworthy and Glorious"
6. "O God, bless Muhammad and the family of Muhammad (including his progeny), as you have blessed Abraham and his family (including progeny). Truly, you are Praiseworthy and Glorious".
The reason for #1 above is to greet Allah
The reason for # 2 is to greet Prophet Mohammad
The reason for # 3 is to greet all righteous mankind (from Adam till Day of Judgment)
The reason for # 4 is to testify that Allah alone is God, and Mohammad is His Prophet.
Please note that we don’t do any distinction between the Prophets of Allah as one may think, because we greet (send Peace) to all righteous people as in # 3, and all the Prophets of Allah are among the righteous people.
The reason of why we mention Mohammad with Allah in the testimony (Shahada) is only to testify and to acknowledge that he is the Prophet of Allah as in:
(3:86) How shall Allah guide a people who disbelieved after their belief and had witnessed that the Messenger is true
(2:253) Those messengers - some of them We caused to exceed others. Among them were those to whom Allah spoke, and He raised some of them in degree.
Allah raised some of His Prophets in degree. For Mohammad, Allah honored him to be mentioned everywhere i.e. when we call for prayer, with testimony, in our 5 daily prayers as in verse (94:4) And raised high for you your repute
Also Allah sent all Prophets before Mohammad for certain people or certain time, but He sent Mohammad for all nations and till the Day of Judgment.
(34:28) And We have not sent thee (O Muhammad) save as a bringer of good tidings and a warner unto all mankind
(33:40) Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets.
Also, Allah ordered the believers to honor Mohammad as in:
(7:157) Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet,… So they who have believed in him, HONORED him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him - it is those who will be the successful.
And the reason of why the family of Mohammad is excluded from the family of Abraham as in Joseph’s’ article is:
• If you read in # 5 and # 6 above, the exclusion is between Mohammad & his family and Abraham & his family
• We first mention Mohammad because we must honor him as I explained above
• Then we mention Prophet Abraham because he is the forefather of the believers, and Allah said about parents:
(17:24) And lower to them the wing of humility out of mercy and say, “My Lord, have mercy upon them…”
Now, let’s discuss who the sacrificed son was, Isaac or Ishmael.
(1) (37:100) My Lord! grant me of the doers of good deeds.
The word is mentioned in Quran is (“Saleheen”, which is plural of “Saleh”) which means (righteous, doers of good deeds). The reason Abraham asked Allah in the plural because he wants righteous son and righteous descendants from this son. If you read verse (2:124), Allah told Abraham that He will make him a leader. Abraham immediately asked Allah “and of my descendants”.
(2) (37:101) “So We gave him tidings of a gentle son.”
Please note that this was the FIRST good news. And Allah didn’t mention the name of the child.
(3) Then from verses (37:102-7), Allah said that Abraham saw in a dream that he is sacrificing his son; then his son obeyed; before killing the son, Allah gave him an animal to sacrifice instead of his son). Please note that the story of Abraham and the sacrificed son is finished at this point.
(4) Then from verses (37:108-11) Allah said that He was pleased with Abraham.
(5) Then Allah told Abraham in verse (37:112) about the SECOND good news for another son and Allah mentioned the name of the child “Isaac”
( AND We gave him good tidings of Isaac, a prophet from among the righteous.) Please note that Allah started this verse with “AND” which means “one more son”.
Since the second son was Isaac, therefore, the first “good news” son was Ishmael.
Joseph said when he replied to my previous post: “Unfortunately, this is not a post that I would be willing to entertain further. Therefore, please kindly accept my response as my last to you on this matter.”
Although I appreciate you for taking the time to read and respond to my post, but, please note that the purpose that I decided to join your forum is to discuss Quran and understand it as much as possible, and to demonstrate our suggestions with proofs from Quran if we disagree with any post as long as it's discussed in a professional manner. Therefore, I disagree with you that you are not willing to continue discussing with me this topic. I believe it is the best time to respond to my analysis.
I would welcome any feedback. I know my article was lengthy, but thank you so much for taking the time to read it.
May Allah guide all of us to the straight path.
With peace and respect,
Brother Joseph: I am still unable to use the toolbar buttons, and it’s very important that I highlight some important words. I searched everywhere in your forum but with no luck. Would you please send me the instructions of how to enable it to my email that you have in the forum. (Thanks)
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"Please read the verse carefully, Allah told Moses that “a prophet LIKE you”. Therefore the Prophet that Allah spoke about must be like Moses. Jesus is different than Moses. Moses birth was naturally, he came from a father and a mother, while Jesus came from only a mother. Therefore, indeed the prophet that Allah spoke about here is Mohammad."
And Muhammad (pbuh) did have a virgin birth??? Please think about this carefully. Jesus (pbuh) has FAR more in common with Moses (pbuh) than Muhammad (pbuh) did.
Regards
wanderer
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Also--
"Please note that Allah said in this verse "and placed the prophethood and the scripture among their seed". Since Mohammad is a “Prophet”, and Allah sent to him the scripture “Quran”, therefore, he is automatically from the offspring of Abraham as to what the verse is telling us."
How?? The verse is clearly dealing with LITERAL offspring, not 'SPIRITUAL'
Regards
wanderer
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Dear F,
Peace,
If you do want me to participate in some semblance of a discussion, may I then kindly request that going forward, you do not provide me any lengthy responses or implied interpretations please. My argument will be from the Quran and if this is not something that you can argue from, then I would respectfully find it a futile discussion.
Therefore, please kindly cite me one unequivocal, unambiguous verse from the Quran which cogently proves that Prophet Muhammad is from the progeny or seed of Prophet Abraham. Only one verse please.
Please kindly note, I will not be entertaining a long 'interpretive /implied' discussion as with respect, you have made an assertion and the burden of proof is with you to prove it.
PS: I've asked the moderators and tech and they don't feel that the toolbar issue is with your account. Everyone else's also seems to be working correctly. Please kindly try a different browser / computer to see if the problem is not account related. Thanks.
Regards,
Joseph
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Dear Joseph,
Peace be upon you,
When I read your article of whether Prophet Mohammad is from the descendants of Prophet Abraham or not, I have noticed that you mentioned many verses to prove that he is not, but ignored to mention (4:54)
(4:54) Shakir: Or do they envy the people for what Allah has given them of His grace? But indeed We have given to Ibrahim's CHILDREN the Book and the wisdom, and We have given them a grand kingdom.
Can you kindly explain to me the reasons of why you decided to exclude it. I believe that the readers have the right to know everything about Quran, and she/he alone can decide since there is no compulsion in Islam. Therefore, in order to be fair for the readers, I believe this verse should be included in your article.
ARE THE ARABS AND PROPHET MUHAMMAD (pbuh) REALLY DESCENDANTS OF PROPHET ABRAHAM? (pbuh)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/are%20the%20arabs%20descendants%20of%20abraham%20FM3.htm
May Allah guide all of us to the straight path.
With peace and respect,
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He didn't include it because it has no necessary connection to the topic.
With all due respect, the burden of proof is on YOU to tell why it should be included in the article, before you lecture Joseph about "representing the message of the Quran to his readership".
Regrads
wanderer
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Dear F,
Peace be upon you.
Please let us be respectfully clear that the burden of proof is not for me to prove the negative (i.e. that the prophet Muhammad is not the descendant of Prophet Abraham), but the burden of proof is with you or anyone making the claim, to prove that prophet Muhammad is the direct descendant of Prophet Abraham as you appear to allege.
When I write my articles, the intention is not to cite every single related and implied verse from the Quran, but more than often, to carry the general gist of the argument.
If there is a verse that unequivocally proved from the Quran that Prophet Muhammad was a direct descendant of prophet Abraham and I did not include it, that would have been another matter.
Now you cite, verse 4:54.
Even taking your translation from 'Shakir' 'Or do they envy the people for what Allah has given them of His grace? But indeed We have given to Ibrahim's CHILDREN the Book and the wisdom, and We have given them a grand kingdom.’
With respect, how does that unequivocally prove the unequivocal descendancy of Prophet Muhammad? Firstly, let us not ignore the initial context as a dialogue with the People of the Book (4:47). Secondly, there were many other prophets that were given the Book and were prophets and who were the descendants of Abraham. Thirdly, this discussion was a reminder of events from the past (4:55).
How is this proof of Prophet Muhammad’s descendancy and why would there be an expectation for me to include this as a verse to prove otherwise?
Therefore, I will respectfully ask again.
Please kindly cite me one unequivocal, unambiguous verse from the Quran which cogently proves that Prophet Muhammad is from the progeny or seed of Prophet Abraham. Only one verse please.
Regards,
Joseph
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He didn't include it because it has no necessary connection to the topic.
With all due respect, the burden of proof is on YOU to tell why it should be included in the article, before you lecture Joseph about "representing the message of the Quran to his readership".
Regrads
wanderer
Dear brother Wanderer,
As-salamu alaykum
My post seems to have crossed over with yours. You are absolutely correct. The burden of proof lies with the person that is making the claim and as I've respectfully shared in my post to F, this verse in my humble opinion, was not relevant to include either way.
Your brother in faith,
Joseph
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Dear Joseph,
Peace be upon you,
This is another proof that the sacrificed son was Ishmael.
The messengers of Allah told Abraham glad news.
• (11:69) There came Our messengers to Abraham with glad tidings. They said, "Peace!" He answered, "Peace!" and hastened to entertain them with a roasted calf.
The messengers of Allah told Abraham that they were sent against the people of Lut.
• (11:70) But when he saw their hands went not towards the (meal), he felt some mistrust of them, and conceived a fear of them. They said: "Fear not: We have been sent against the people of Lut."
The wife of Abraham was "nearby" when the messengers of Allah told her that she will give birth to Isaac, who will have a son Jacob. Since she was nearby, therefore Abraham heard what they told her. Therefore, Abraham knew that his son Isaac would live until he begets Jacob.
• His wife who was standing "nearby", smiled and so We gave her the glad news that she would give birth to Isaac who would have a son, Jacob.
Allah told Abraham to sacrifice his son. If the son that Allah told him to sacrifice was Isaac, how then he will beget Jacob. Therefore, it’s clear that the son was Ishmael.
Please let me know what you think,
With great respect,
Note: I sent a note to QM Moderators Team that I tried few different computers/browsers to test the Toolbar buttons in my account but nothing worked. It’s still not working. Would you please follow with them. I am unable to change font color/size/bold, etc. This is an example of what would happen if I try to change color, etc: Test
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Dear F,
Peace be upon you.
With respect, you still have not provided me any direct, unequivocal proof that Prophet Muhammad is a direct descendant of Prophet Abraham.
Therefore, I will respectfully ask once again.
Please kindly cite me one unequivocal, unambiguous verse from the Quran which cogently proves that Prophet Muhammad is from the progeny or seed of Prophet Abraham. Only one verse please.
PS: You seem to have changed your text to 'red' successfully. Therefore, I would assume that there is nothing wrong with your account. I think you may be looking at the 'edit' window when you type your text and in that, any format is not immediately visible until one posts.
Regards,
Joseph
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Dear Joseph,
Peace be upon you,
Thanks for your response. I said in my previous post that "This is another proof that the sacrificed son was Ishmael." Therefore, I am asking you in this post about the sacrificed son of Abraham. To be clear with you, please let's put the subject of (Arab/Prophet Mohammad is from the offspring of Abraham) off the discussion, and let's focus ONLY on the sacrificed son of Abraham.
In your article, you said that according to Quran, the sacrificed son is "Isaac". I sent you two proofs from Quran that the sacrificed son is "Ishmael". Please reply only to this question.
Thank you kindly for your attention,
With peace and respect,
PS: regarding the Toolbar, when I sent you the example to show you what's happening when I click on change color, etc, I sent you the message that I received. In your post I didn't see the message that I sent to you and only seen the word "Test" in red color. I am still having the same problem. Any ways, don't worry about this any more. (Thanks)
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Dear F,
Peace
Please kindly see the forum rules below regarding my conditions of engagement.
MY CONDITIONS OF DISCUSSION OR DEBATE
- INCLUDING CRITIQUE OF MY ARTICLES OR PERSPECTIVES -
http://quransmessage.com/articles/debate%20FM3.htm
If you have no unequivocal evidence from the Quran regarding the descendancy of the Prophet as you have alleged in critique of my article, then please can you kindly say so / confirm and this thread / conversation will be closed.
This will be a clear indication that you have been unable to provide substantiating evidence to support your critique of the following article:
[1] ARE THE ARABS AND PROPHET MUHAMMAD (pbuh) REALLY DESCENDANTS OF PROPHET ABRAHAM? (pbuh)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/are%20the%20arabs%20descendants%20of%20abraham%20FM3.htm
Then as per forum conditions, please kindly open up another thread regarding the second article you wish to discuss / critique and God permitting, we can discuss that matter then.
Regards,
Joseph
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Dear Joseph,
Peace be upon you,
In the article that I posted on your forum regarding “Can Women pray/fast during Menstruation” http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2139.0
I said “I know that sometimes I discuss more than one article in the same post but that only to save your time because both articles are related. If this is not acceptable with you, please advice me.” And I have not heard from you any response.
Any ways regarding your requests:
1. You asked me for a verse from Quran to prove that Mohammad is from the offspring of Abraham. I have provided you verse (4:54) in my previous article as a clear proof. You decided that this verse is not a proof. Therefore, there is no reason for me to continue discussing this topic with you because I already knew your decision. This is what I said in my post below regarding verse (4:54):
(4:54) Shakir: Or do they envy the people for what Allah has given them of His grace? But indeed We have given to Ibrahim's CHILDREN the Book and the wisdom, and We have given them a grand kingdom.
Allah said in this verse that He gave “Ibrahim's children”:
1. the Book
2. and the wisdom
3. and We have given them a grand kingdom.
Therefore, Prophet Mohammad is indeed from the children of Prophet Abraham.
2. Regarding the second article about the sacrificed son of Abraham, I will open new article to post it as you requested.
With great respect,
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Allah said in this verse that He gave “Ibrahim's children”:
1. the Book
2. and the wisdom
3. and We have given them a grand kingdom.
Therefore, Prophet Mohammad is indeed from the children of Prophet Abraham.
Dear F,
Peace.
Please kindly have a look at the logic you are sharing:
You are trying to unequivocally prove from verse 4:54 that Prophet Muhammad is a direct descendant of Prophet Abraham.
Where in points 1, 2 and 3 is there mention of Prophet Muhammad? I have already shared with you there were other prophets that came from the progeny of prophet Abraham who were given the Books, wisdom and great Kingdoms. Prophet David is one such example. However, as I mentioned in the article, in verses 6:83-86, the seeds of Prophet Abraham (pbuh) are comprehensively defined and include: Isaac, Jacob, David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, Zachariya, John, Jesus, Elias, Ishmael, Elisha, Jonah and Lot. (pbut) Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is not mentioned amongst them.
Therefore, how does this prove your point?
Dear F, with respect, if this is the kind of argumentation you are going to present, then I'm afraid I really do not have the time to dedicate to your critiques and why often now, I do not dedicate my time to this kind of argumentation or discussions.
Do you respectfully accept that you have no cogent evidence to prove your position on this matter?
Regards,
Joseph
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Dear Joseph,
Peace be upon you,
Please note that this is my belief in this verse and I wanted to know your opinion. You have provided me with your opinion, and your efforts are very much appreciated. May Allah guide all of us to the straight path.
With peace and respect,
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Dear F,
Peace
If you are to provide an academic critique of a position, with respect, there has to be a certain standard of argumentation or rebuttal. This is not merely about sharing opposing opinions otherwise, you could have shared that from the outset that you had a different opinion. However, it seemed that you solicited an academic discourse as part of an academic critique.
If your view is merely to suggest you have a different opinion without corroboration of substantial evidence, then with respect, I will not be able to sustain any discussions with you.
Therefore, please kindly accept my response as my last to you on this matter.
Regards,
Joseph
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Dear Joseph,
Peace be upon you,
First, my academic background is Industrial Engineer. I am interested in discussing/understanding Quran with unbiased and professional parties. When I discovered your website, it attracts me because you said in your articles "don't follow blindly", etc. I was under the impression that all members can mutually share their opinions in the same matter without enforcing our opinion unto anyone. When I share with you any argument, it does not mean that you or any member are wrong. It means that this is what I believe and I am seeking your opinion and the opinion of all members. At the end, no one has the right to enforce her/his decision unto anyone since this is the principle of Islam as in (2:256) there is no compulsion in matter of faith.
When I read any of your articles and if I have any doubts, I believe that I have every single right to discuss it with you and receive a professional response as in (3:159) And if you had been rude [in speech] and harsh in heart, they would have disbanded from about you... and consult them in the matter; and as in (24:38) who (conduct) their affairs by mutual Consultation. If this is not your policy, please advice me and I will not visit your website any more.
Thank you kindly for your time and cooperation. I look forward to your response.
With peace and respect,
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Dear F,
Peace.
With respect, I think you are missing the point. If you want to share your opinion, please kindly do. You already have my opinion in the form of the article. If you want to critique the opinion (please don't disguise this under 'discussion') because you simply disagree, then you will need to provide evidence. It is clear to me from the outset of this thread, you were never intending to ‘consult’, rather it appears that you have taken the stance to refute. That is why evidence was demanded of you respectfully, and I have strongly felt that you have not provided any cogent response to the request.
I am not imposing my viewpoint on you. My opinion is shared in public. If you have better unequivocal evidence in the form of a rebuttal, then please kindly share. If you do not, then you are of course, free to hold your opinion. However, please kindly do not expect me to comment where the discussion remit is seemingly futile to me. I hope you will kindly appreciate my position.
Once again, please kindly accept my sentiment as the last on this matter.
With utmost respect,
Regards,
Joseph
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Peace F.
Since you said,quote:
It means that this is what I believe and I am seeking your opinion and the opinion of all members.
Please allow me to give you another opinion on this subject that might highlight some issues with this subject.
1= Regarding the descendants of Abraham
I believe it is irrelevant to argue/debate/... who has descended from Abraham.
Qoran clearly indicates to the believers( All believers regardless of gender race or family tree) that Abraham is the father of all the believers. He was the one who named the believers" Muslimeen".
Qoran has some examples for us about Noah and his son. ( Ya nooh innahu laisa min ahlik"!!!
And that all believers are brothers and sisters in the faith.
Abraham descendants are both believers and disbelievers.
Abraham is the father of the believers. He was the example and the precedent of true Islam.
2=Regarding sacrified son
Again irrelevant who Abraham tried to sacrifice as GOD did not order such an act. Some people try to claim Isaac or Ishmail and are proud of such act from Abraham!!!!
Ido not get where in the Qoran GOD ordered such an act?:
37:102 says:
When he grew enough to work with him, he said, "My son, I see in a dream that I am sacrificing you. What do you think?" He said, "O my father, do what you are commanded to do. You will find me, God willing, patient."
Abraham saw in a dream. GOD does not order anyone to commit murder of the innocent. That is why it is irrelevant which son,the lesson is in the story regardless of who it was from the siblings.
7:28
They commit a gross sin, then say, "We found our parents doing this, and God has commanded us to do it." Say, "God never advocates sin. Are you saying about God what you do not know?"
وَإِذا فَعَلوا فٰحِشَةً قالوا وَجَدنا عَلَيها ءاباءَنا وَاللَّهُ أَمَرَنا بِها قُل إِنَّ اللَّهَ لا يَأمُرُ بِالفَحشاءِ أَتَقولونَ عَلَى اللَّهِ ما لا تَعلَمونَ
On the contrary, GOD advocate justice :
16:90
God advocates justice, charity, and regarding the relatives. And He forbids evil, vice, and transgression. He enlightens you, that you may take heed.
إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَأمُرُ بِالعَدلِ وَالإِحسٰنِ وَإيتائِ ذِى القُربىٰ وَيَنهىٰ عَنِ الفَحشاءِ وَالمُنكَرِ وَالبَغىِ يَعِظُكُم لَعَلَّكُم تَذَكَّرونَ
In my opinion, the most important issue is to follow Abraham and be totally loyal and a true "Muslim" to GOD. In that case one would also be following the last prophet s example. He was told to Follow Millat Abraham. Dedication to GOD Alone and following GOD s commands.
Thank you brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Dear All,
Good logic, thank you kindly for contributing your suggestions.
Regarding your first point, I agree with you that Abraham is the father of all the believers.
Regarding your second point that Allah doesn't order unjust or advocate sin. You said "Abraham saw in a dream. GOD does not order anyone to commit murder of the innocent." Please allow me to share with you my knowledge about this.
Allah doesn't want Abraham to kill his son. Allah showed him this dream only to test him. Once he obeyed Allah and agreed to sacrifice his son, Allah gave him an animal to sacrifice.
(29:2) Do men think that they will be left alone on saying, "We believe", and that they will not be tested?
If you have any suggestion, please feel free to share it.
Joseph, to save our time, I re-read your policy and this is the protocol you want your members to follow:
1) if we want to seek your opinion regarding an article that you already published and we may not agree with, we must say in the subject line the following:
Critique - [PROPHET ABRAHAM'S (pbuh) SACRIFICIAL SON - ISHMAEL OR ISAAC? (pbut)] by [Author making the critique: F]
And only one article is to be discussed even if there are other articles that may be related, and only one post per day, and to wait until your respond.
2) if we want to ask any question, we don't have to write: "Critique... in the subject line.
If this correct, you don't have to reply to me. If this incorrect, please explain to me the protocol you want me to approach by giving me an example.
Thank you, May Allah guide all of us to the straight path,
Best regards,
-
Asalamu Alykum
Dear F
Brother Joseph has kindly and respectfully took his time to clearly show you that the verse that you had provided as evidence (4:54) does not portray that Muhammad and Abraham are related. He went the extra step to explain to you who the children of Abraham were who were given the prophethood by verses 6:84-86. And clearly Muhammad is not mentioned in the verses nor anywhere else in the Quran that he is from the children of Abraham. On the contrary the article shows numerous verses to actually disprove the traditional view. It seems you have not acknowledged any of them.
6:84-86 And We gave to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - all [of them] We guided. And Noah, We guided before; and among his descendants, David and Solomon and Job and Joseph and Moses and Aaron. Thus do We reward the doers of good.
And Zechariah and John and Jesus and Elias - and all were of the righteous.
And Ishmael and Elisha and Jonah and Lot - and all [of them] We preferred over the worlds.
If you note verse 42:13 you will realize that Muhammad is clearly included in the verse along with other messengers as having the same religion as one another. But that does not equate to being from the same lineage. So you can see that verses 6:84-86 intentionally omitted prophet Muhammad for the reason that he was not part of their family.
42:13 He hath ordained for you that religion which He commended unto Noah, and that which We inspire in thee (Muhammad), and that which We commended unto Abraham and Moses and Jesus, saying: Establish the religion, and be not divided therein. Dreadful for the idolaters is that unto which thou callest them. Allah chooseth for Himself whom He will, and guideth unto Himself him who turneth (toward Him).
Also brother/sister you are absolutely correct you have the right and are free to believe in whatever you like, just as you have mentioned and as we all believe here that there is no compulsion in religion 2:256.
However may I kindly and respectfully caution that people who just simply reject or deny truth after proof has been presented maybe stepping in the section of those who are termed disbelievers (kuffar) by God. As you will note the examples in the Quran are many. Those who rejected clear arguments, proofs or miracles against their own beliefs were termed disbelievers (kuffar). So with all due respect and sincerity we all must remain vigilant when truth has been shown and hope for the best for each other.
you stated When I read any of your articles and if I have any doubts, I believe that I have every single right to discuss it with you and receive a professional response as in (3:159) And if you had been rude [in speech] and harsh in heart, they would have disbanded from about you... and consult them in the matter; and as in (24:38) who (conduct) their affairs by mutual Consultation. If this is not your policy, please advice me and I will not visit your website any more.
Although I do not see how the verses you mentioned have anything to do with whats happening, I still find you had received kind, respectful and professional responses but can you please consider and imagine that if everyone simply questioned and argue just merely because they have doubts without providing any clear evidence or rebuttal where he had went wrong concerning the articles that Joseph has written and Masha'Allah there are numerous, what he would have to go through. Please remember he probably has continuous emails and discussions other places as well.
Insha'Allah peace and blessings :)
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Dear Hamza,
I have read your post. Thank you kindly for taking the time to reply to my article. I decided not to comment on this topic anymore. However, I want to discuss with you and all members a different article that I will post on the forum with a title “Believing in “Prophet Mohammad” is a “Must” in order to enter Heaven”.
Once you have a moment, please read it and I would appreciate you and all members to comment on the article. The purpose of this debate is to understand Quran ONLY.
May Allah guide all of us to the straight path.
With peace and respect,
-
Asalamu Alykum
Dear F
Brother Joseph has kindly and respectfully took his time to clearly show you that the verse that you had provided as evidence (4:54) does not portray that Muhammad and Abraham are related. He went the extra step to explain to you who the children of Abraham were who were given the prophethood by verses 6:84-86. And clearly Muhammad is not mentioned in the verses nor anywhere else in the Quran that he is from the children of Abraham. On the contrary the article shows numerous verses to actually disprove the traditional view. It seems you have not acknowledged any of them.
6:84-86 And We gave to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - all [of them] We guided. And Noah, We guided before; and among his descendants, David and Solomon and Job and Joseph and Moses and Aaron. Thus do We reward the doers of good.
And Zechariah and John and Jesus and Elias - and all were of the righteous.
And Ishmael and Elisha and Jonah and Lot - and all [of them] We preferred over the worlds.
If you note verse 42:13 you will realize that Muhammad is clearly included in the verse along with other messengers as having the same religion as one another. But that does not equate to being from the same lineage. So you can see that verses 6:84-86 intentionally omitted prophet Muhammad for the reason that he was not part of their family.
42:13 He hath ordained for you that religion which He commended unto Noah, and that which We inspire in thee (Muhammad), and that which We commended unto Abraham and Moses and Jesus, saying: Establish the religion, and be not divided therein. Dreadful for the idolaters is that unto which thou callest them. Allah chooseth for Himself whom He will, and guideth unto Himself him who turneth (toward Him).
Also brother/sister you are absolutely correct you have the right and are free to believe in whatever you like, just as you have mentioned and as we all believe here that there is no compulsion in religion 2:256.
However may I kindly and respectfully caution that people who just simply reject or deny truth after proof has been presented maybe stepping in the section of those who are termed disbelievers (kuffar) by God. As you will note the examples in the Quran are many. Those who rejected clear arguments, proofs or miracles against their own beliefs were termed disbelievers (kuffar). So with all due respect and sincerity we all must remain vigilant when truth has been shown and hope for the best for each other.
you stated When I read any of your articles and if I have any doubts, I believe that I have every single right to discuss it with you and receive a professional response as in (3:159) And if you had been rude [in speech] and harsh in heart, they would have disbanded from about you... and consult them in the matter; and as in (24:38) who (conduct) their affairs by mutual Consultation. If this is not your policy, please advice me and I will not visit your website any more.
Although I do not see how the verses you mentioned have anything to do with whats happening, I still find you had received kind, respectful and professional responses but can you please consider and imagine that if everyone simply questioned and argue just merely because they have doubts without providing any clear evidence or rebuttal where he had went wrong concerning the articles that Joseph has written and Masha'Allah there are numerous, what he would have to go through. Please remember he probably has continuous emails and discussions other places as well.
Insha'Allah peace and blessings :)
Shalom / peace .....
Well Said brother Hamzeh ....May Allah bless you always>>>>
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Peace F.
Thank you for your reply.
Even though GOD tests all believers, do you really think that GOD would order anyone to break His commands?
You say you are interested in Qoran, I hope brother, you check everything by studying GOD s words and reflecting on what they say!
Can we really ignore the majority of the clear verses that tell us who GOD is and what He instructs/commands and expects from the believers?
I do not really know what to say to you?
Personally,I find Qoran clear and straightforward when describing who GOD is and what he does /instructs/commands etc...
I do not find anywhere in Qoran ,even the hint of GOD testing Abraham by ordering him to sacrifice his son?
If you do please post the verse/s .
To me this will contradict a lot of the message of Qoran.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Dear good logic,
Peace be upon you,
I am sorry for being late. You have asked me in your previous post to provide you with a verse that Allah tested Abraham to sacrifice his son.
Allah said that He tested Abraham with specific orders, and Abraham did them i.e. obeyed Allah. Once Abraham obeyed Allah, Allah told him that He will make him a leader for mankind.
• (2:124) And (remember) when his Lord tried Abraham with (His) commands, and he fulfilled them, He said: Lo! I have appointed thee a leader for mankind. (Abraham) said: And of my offspring (will there be leaders)? He said: My covenant includeth not wrong-doers.
Then Allah said that Abraham saw a dream to sacrifice his son, and also said in verse (37:106) this was the test.
• (37:106) Lo! that verily was a clear test.
Therefore, the dream was from Allah, not from Satan.
Allah also said:
• (37:108) And We left (this blessing) for him among generations (to come) in later times
If you think this is incorrect, please explain what do you think.
With great respect,
-
Peace F.
Thank you for your reply.
Let us take the verses you quoted and see whether they have anything to do with GOD commanding/ordering/asking ...Abraham to sacrifice his son?
2:124: The context of this verse is explained in the following verses-2:125-132- i.e commands about the "rites of the millat/deen". Nothing to do with sacrificing a son!!!!
37:106: Please read the verses of the incident again. Nowhere does GOD say it was a test from Him?Do you think GOD tests people by asking them to break His commandments? :
37:104
We called him: "O Abraham.
وَنٰدَينٰهُ أَن يٰإِبرٰهيمُ
37:105
"You have believed the dream." We thus reward the righteous.
قَد صَدَّقتَ الرُّءيا إِنّا كَذٰلِكَ نَجزِى المُحسِنينَ
37:106
That was an exacting test indeed.
إِنَّ هٰذا لَهُوَ البَلٰؤُا۟ المُبينُ
GOD is saying to Abraham "you have believed the dream". Abraham assumed /thought ...that he was ordered/...GOD then said "it was a test" ,not a test from GOD? If anything GOD saved him from carrying it out because Abraham was loyal to GOD. GOD saves His devoted servants like in the case of Joseph here:
12:24
...We thus diverted evil and sin away from him, for he was one of our devoted servants.
Brother you are assuming that the test/command was from Allah! It does not say it in the verses you quoted. and does not say it in Qoran.
GOD bless you.
Peace.