QM Forum
The Quran => General Discussions => Topic started by: ZKAB90 on April 12, 2016, 05:50:17 AM
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I'm against to say there is a new, overwhelming, proof for the punishment in the grave. However, I found new evidences support it. From this source: http://www.myreligionislam.com/detail.asp?Aid=5844 (http://www.myreligionislam.com/detail.asp?Aid=5844)
Question: Is the torment in the grave a reality?
ANSWER
Some evidence that establishes the occurrence of the torment in the grave is as follows:
Hadrat Imâm-i A’zam stated:
The Qur’ân al-karîm says, “They are exposed to the fire morning and evening. On the day when Doomsday comes, it will be said, “Make the dynasty of Pharaoh enter the severest torment!” http://quran.com/40/46 (http://quran.com/40/46)
The torment they will undergo morning and evening is before the Resurrection. It is declared in the following part of the âyah (Qur’anic verse) that they will be made to enter a severe torment. The former refers to the torment in the grave while the latter refers to the torment in Hell. (Al-Qawl-ul fasl)
Hadrat Imâm-i Ghazâlî stated, “This âyat-i karîma demonstrates the torment in the grave” (Ihyâ).
I think this opinion is logical. "They are exposed to the fire morning and evening" → It can't be in this world, so it must be in the next. "On the day when Doomsday comes" → So, we are talking about a punishment before the Doomsday; the only one possible is in the grave.
The 25th âyat-i karîma of Nûh Sûra purports, “Because of their sins, they were drowned and then thrown into the fire.” The letter F in the word Faudkhilû that appears in the âyat-i karîma (in the original text) stresses that there is no interval or pause at all. That is, it means, “No sooner were they drowned than they were subjected to the torment of the grave” (Al-Qawl-ul fasl).
http://quran.com/71/25 (http://quran.com/71/25) WTF ? I do not read and understand Arabic, if there is Arabic speakers could they confirm it?
Also, the 169th âyat-i karîma of Âl-i ‘Imrân Sûra, which purports, “Do not think of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Rather, they are alive,” indicates the life in the grave. (Al-Qawl-ul fasl) http://quran.com/3/169 (http://quran.com/3/169)
I find this very logical. These martyrs are alive in another dimension [barzakh], and they enjoy the pleasures of the grave.
Next the author make a list of Hadiths supporting the punishment in the grave, which I skip as Hadith rejector.
Is it summary execution?
Question: Some people say, “There is no torment before the Resurrection. It would be summary execution to subject a person to torment in the grave before sins and rewards are determined and before offences are brought to light. It is like smiting a person in the police station before he or she appears in court. This, in turn, is incompatible with Divine justice.” Is the torment in the grave not true?
ANSWER
To utter such remarks means having no knowledge of the religion whatsoever, for Allahu ta’âlâ certainly knows who committed what offence and who will go to Paradise and who will go to Hell. In fact, He had known these even before humans were born. The Angels of Haphaza are determining the good and evil deeds of humans. Who committed what sins are known, so there is no summary execution in the grave. People are exposed to torment as a retribution for their sins. The sins of a Believer who suffers the torment in the grave will decrease, and he or she may go to the Place of Reckoning without any sins.
The Mu’tazila sect, who accepted the mind as a gauge, denied the life and the torment in the grave. Ahl as-Sunnat scholars, on the other hand, substantiated the authenticity of the torment in the grave with evidence.
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More proofs:
"And if you could but see when the angels take the souls of those who disbelieved... They are striking their faces and their backs and [saying], "Taste the punishment of the Burning Fire" http://quran.com/8/50 (http://quran.com/8/50)
And who is more unjust than one who invents a lie about Allah or says, "It has been inspired to me," while nothing has been inspired to him, and one who says, "I will reveal [something] like what Allah revealed." And if you could but see when the wrongdoers are in the overwhelming pangs of death while the angels extend their hands, [saying], "Discharge your souls! Today you will be awarded the punishment of [extreme] humiliation for what you used to say against Allah other than the truth and [that] you were, toward His verses, being arrogant." http://quran.com/6/93 (http://quran.com/6/93)
"Then [if you had], We would have made you taste double [punishment in] life and double [after] death. Then you would not find for yourself against Us a helper" http://quran.com/17/75 (http://quran.com/17/75)
"And indeed, for those who have wronged is a punishment before that, but most of them do not know" http://quran.com/52/46 (http://quran.com/52/46) → It means before the Judgement Day
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Salam ZKAB90,
I am not sure if you are aware, but brother Joseph Islam's has written an article pertaining to this issue which address (and refutes) every point you ( or that author) made in your previous post. Here the article which I am referring to:
http://quransmessage.com/articles/grave%20punishment%20FM3.htm
Please also consider the relevant questions Brother Joseph asks at the end of the article.
Peace.
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Peace ZKAAB90.
Qoran does not support punishment of the grave.
Let me sum up for you what GOD is saying in Qoran:
GOD created us for this test. He also created death to return us to Him.Death is temporary prior to resurrection.
GOD explains in Qoran that death is like sleep, complete with dreams and nightmares. When you are asleep you are not aware of anything except if you dream. then you remember some of what you dream when you wake up. Some do not wake up if their predetermined time is over.
Now, when GOD is talking about Pharaoh and those who died with him in the verse that mentions"Hell will be shown to them day and night", it just means while Pharaoh and those who perished with him are asleep( dead)-- By the way at death everyone knows their destiny--They are having this nightmare /dream. When they wake up for judgement (resurrection) the matter will be settled .
Hope that explains the "fairy tale" for you.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Salam ZKAB90,
I am not sure if you are aware, but brother Joseph Islam's has written an article pertaining to this issue which address (and refutes) every point you ( or that author) made in your previous post. Here the article which I am referring to:
http://quransmessage.com/articles/grave%20punishment%20FM3.htm
Please also consider the relevant questions Brother Joseph asks at the end of the article.
Peace.
As-salam aleikum Hassan A;
Yes, I'm aware of the article done by brother Joseph.
But disappoint you, he hasn't debunked the article which I copied from a Muslim site [and which I added some personal opinions].
He write:
a) "FROM THE MOMENT ONE DIES AND ARE SUBSEQUENTLY RAISED, IT WILL FEEL LIKE A MOMENTARY TIME LAPSE"
b) "THE DAY OF JUDGMENT IS ONLY A BLINKING OF AN EYE AWAY"
And? No one know the measure of time of the grave, because the barzakh is in another dimension, with different physical laws. So, the time we will spend in the barzakh is different from this worldy time.
Joseph Islam write:
"If there was such an unjust concept of grave punishment, how could one reconcile the period of the Azaab (punishment) of someone who died as a disbeliever 5000 years ago and one that dies 2 minutes before the Day of Resurrection? It seems awfully unjust that someone who dies 5000 years ago should receive a greater period of punishment in the grave than someone who died moments before the Day of Resurrection and who may actually be a greater sinner. In parallel, it seems equally unfair to the individual born 5000 years ago that due to his period of birth, his punishment would be prolonged"
But as I posted in the above article, "Allahu ta’âlâ certainly knows who committed what offence and who will go to Paradise and who will go to Hell. In fact, He had known these even before humans were born. The Angels of Haphaza are determining the good and evil deeds of humans. Who committed what sins are known, so there is no summary execution in the grave"
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Peace ZKAAB90.
Qoran does not support punishment of the grave.
Let me sum up for you what GOD is saying in Qoran:
GOD created us for this test. He also created death to return us to Him.Death is temporary prior to resurrection.
GOD explains in Qoran that death is like sleep, complete with dreams and nightmares. When you are asleep you are not aware of anything except if you dream. then you remember some of what you dream when you wake up. Some do not wake up if their predetermined time is over.
Now, when GOD is talking about Pharaoh and those who died with him in the verse that mentions"Hell will be shown to them day and night", it just means while Pharaoh and those who perished with him are asleep( dead)-- By the way at death everyone knows their destiny--They are having this nightmare /dream. When they wake up for judgement (resurrection) the matter will be settled .
Hope that explains the "fairy tale" for you.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
As-salam aleikum good logic;
You said: "it just means while Pharaoh and those who perished with him are asleep (dead)''.
But the others verses I posted show there is not only a demonstration in the grave of the punishment that will take place in the Judgement Day, but also a real one in the grave !
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Peace to all
I would like to ask some questions here.
- If there are three world (1 - This world, 2 - Barzakh, 3 - Hereafter) and not only two (1 - This world, 2 - Hereafter), then why the Quran constantly repeating "This World" (Dunya) and "The Hereafter" (A'khera)?
- Where in the Quran it says that the barrier (Barzakh) is a world with a different dimension?
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Yes, I'm aware of the article done by brother Joseph.
But disappoint you, he hasn't debunked the article which I copied from a Muslim site [and which I added some personal opinions].
Shalom / peace ZKAB90......as far as I can tell. ..brother Joseph's article wasn't written to debunk a particular article / your opinion.....
It was too provide Quranic guidance and challenge popular sectarian thinking. ......
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Peace to all
I would like to ask some questions here.
- If there are three world (1 - This world, 2 - Barzakh, 3 - Hereafter) and not only two (1 - This world, 2 - Hereafter), then why the Quran constantly repeating "This World" (Dunya) and "The Hereafter" (A'khera)?
- Where in the Quran it says that the barrier (Barzakh) is a world with a different dimension?
Shalom / peace.......
Excellent questions and points!!!!!! ....
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Salam ZKAB90,
But disappoint you, he hasn't debunked the article which I copied from a Muslim site [and which I added some personal opinions].
Joseph Islam's article does address some of points raised in your answer as well as the article you've shared.
For example, one of the "proof" (or Quranic verse) you (or the author of the article you've shared) give in support of your position is as follows:
“They are exposed to the fire morning and evening. On the day when Doomsday comes, it will be said, “Make the dynasty of Pharaoh enter the severest torment!”
Yet, as Jospeh Islam mentioned in his article:
Regrettably, without reconciling the Quranic narratives in full and due to beliefs stemming from popular traditions, one often finds use being made of isolated Quranic verses to authenticate doctrines not taught by the Quran.
With regards the example of Pharaoh, the following verse is often cited to justify the concept of ‘punishment in the grave’.
040:046
“In front of the Fire will they be brought, morning and evening: and (the sentence will be) on the Day that Judgment will be established: "Cast ye the People of Pharaoh into the severest Penalty”
If read in context, it becomes absolutely clear that this is a reference to the Day of Judgment.
040:047
“And when they shall contend one with another in the fire, then the weak shall say to those who were proud: Surely we were your followers; will you then avert from us a portion of the fire?”
For this reason given the context, it is difficult to accept 40:46 as a reference to a ‘punishment in the grave’. Mutual disputes between the people of Pharaoh in the fire clearly indicate a state of communal punishment and not a punishment in separate graves.
The very next verse provides further clarity:
040:048
“Those who were proud shall say: Surely we are all in it: surely God has judged between the servants”
This judgment can only be one made on the Day of Judgment.
With respect to the following comment which you've made in response to a question raised in Joseph Islam's article:
"If there was such an unjust concept of grave punishment, how could one reconcile the period of the Azaab (punishment) of someone who died as a disbeliever 5000 years ago and one that dies 2 minutes before the Day of Resurrection? It seems awfully unjust that someone who dies 5000 years ago should receive a greater period of punishment in the grave than someone who died moments before the Day of Resurrection and who may actually be a greater sinner. In parallel, it seems equally unfair to the individual born 5000 years ago that due to his period of birth, his punishment would be prolonged"
But as I posted in the above article, "Allahu ta’âlâ certainly knows who committed what offence and who will go to Paradise and who will go to Hell. In fact, He had known these even before humans were born.
That still doesn't address the question, though. That question being:
how could one reconcile the period of the Azaab (punishment) of someone who died as a disbeliever 5000 years ago and one that dies 2 minutes before the Day of Resurrection? It seems awfully unjust that someone who dies 5000 years ago should receive a greater period of punishment in the grave than someone who died moments before the Day of Resurrection and who may actually be a greater sinner.
How can one be punished without, first, having received a fair trial before his Lord? If Allah will punish the sinner in his grave without first having given him his fair trial, then of what point is there in having a trial on Judgment day?
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Peace
You say ,quote:
But the others verses I posted show there is not only a demonstration in the grave of the punishment that will take place in the Judgement Day, but also a real one in the grave !
I see no punishment in the grave in all the verses you quoted. I see lack of proper understanding of the context.
The Angel of death comes to take your soul. You are on your last breaths( i.e still alive).
According to Qoran the life and death of the believers are not the same as the disbelievers. For example the Angel of death snatches the soul of the disbeliever but invites the soul of the believers to come out.
Also at the point of death, every soul will know its destiny. However the judgement will be at the resurrection. Hence no punishment until then.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Peace to all
I would like to ask some questions here.
- If there are three world (1 - This world, 2 - Barzakh, 3 - Hereafter) and not only two (1 - This world, 2 - Hereafter), then why the Quran constantly repeating "This World" (Dunya) and "The Hereafter" (A'khera)?
- Where in the Quran it says that the barrier (Barzakh) is a world with a different dimension?
As-salaam aleikum;
As far I know in the Qur'an is not specifically cited that Barzakh is a " world with a different dimension". However, we could intuit it because the punishment that will occurr after the death and before the Judgment Day wouldn't take place in this world.
Maybe the barzakh is a parallel dimension of this world.
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Salam ZKAB90,
But disappoint you, he hasn't debunked the article which I copied from a Muslim site [and which I added some personal opinions].
Joseph Islam's article does address some of points raised in your answer as well as the article you've shared.
For example, one of the "proof" (or Quranic verse) you (or the author of the article you've shared) give in support of your position is as follows:
“They are exposed to the fire morning and evening. On the day when Doomsday comes, it will be said, “Make the dynasty of Pharaoh enter the severest torment!”
Yet, as Jospeh Islam mentioned in his article:
Regrettably, without reconciling the Quranic narratives in full and due to beliefs stemming from popular traditions, one often finds use being made of isolated Quranic verses to authenticate doctrines not taught by the Quran.
With regards the example of Pharaoh, the following verse is often cited to justify the concept of ‘punishment in the grave’.
040:046
“In front of the Fire will they be brought, morning and evening: and (the sentence will be) on the Day that Judgment will be established: "Cast ye the People of Pharaoh into the severest Penalty”
If read in context, it becomes absolutely clear that this is a reference to the Day of Judgment.
040:047
“And when they shall contend one with another in the fire, then the weak shall say to those who were proud: Surely we were your followers; will you then avert from us a portion of the fire?”
For this reason given the context, it is difficult to accept 40:46 as a reference to a ‘punishment in the grave’. Mutual disputes between the people of Pharaoh in the fire clearly indicate a state of communal punishment and not a punishment in separate graves.
The very next verse provides further clarity:
040:048
“Those who were proud shall say: Surely we are all in it: surely God has judged between the servants”
This judgment can only be one made on the Day of Judgment.
With respect to the following comment which you've made in response to a question raised in Joseph Islam's article:
"If there was such an unjust concept of grave punishment, how could one reconcile the period of the Azaab (punishment) of someone who died as a disbeliever 5000 years ago and one that dies 2 minutes before the Day of Resurrection? It seems awfully unjust that someone who dies 5000 years ago should receive a greater period of punishment in the grave than someone who died moments before the Day of Resurrection and who may actually be a greater sinner. In parallel, it seems equally unfair to the individual born 5000 years ago that due to his period of birth, his punishment would be prolonged"
But as I posted in the above article, "Allahu ta’âlâ certainly knows who committed what offence and who will go to Paradise and who will go to Hell. In fact, He had known these even before humans were born.
That still doesn't address the question, though. That question being:
how could one reconcile the period of the Azaab (punishment) of someone who died as a disbeliever 5000 years ago and one that dies 2 minutes before the Day of Resurrection? It seems awfully unjust that someone who dies 5000 years ago should receive a greater period of punishment in the grave than someone who died moments before the Day of Resurrection and who may actually be a greater sinner.
How can one be punished without, first, having received a fair trial before his Lord?
If Allah will punish the sinner in his grave without first having given him his fair trial, then of what point is there in having a trial on Judgment day?
The punishment that will occurr in the barzakh will affect only the soul, not the body. So, probably the punishment will be only a nightmare, and this is in line whith the soul affected by punishment.
I think this terror is a fair trial, because in this world you are free to choose the belief and the actions that resulting from.
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Peace
You say ,quote:
But the others verses I posted show there is not only a demonstration in the grave of the punishment that will take place in the Judgement Day, but also a real one in the grave !
I see no punishment in the grave in all the verses you quoted. I see lack of proper understanding of the context.
The Angel of death comes to take your soul. You are on your last breaths( i.e still alive).
According to Qoran the life and death of the believers are not the same as the disbelievers. For example the Angel of death snatches the soul of the disbeliever but invites the soul of the believers to come out.
Also at the point of death, every soul will know its destiny. However the judgement will be at the resurrection. Hence no punishment until then.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
As-salaam aleikum;
I think I have posted many verses that suggest a punishment in the barzakh.
You can ignore them or suggest my lack of understanding of the context. But the proofs still be there.
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Salam ZKAB90,
You said:
The punishment that will occurr in the barzakh will affect only the soul, not the body. So, probably the punishment will be only a nightmare, and this is in line whith the soul affected by punishment.
Firstly, can I ask you to cite which verse/s you base that view/belief on?
Secondly, if, as you've said, it is only the soul and not the body which will receive punishment in barzakh, then do you also believe that Allah is referring to the souls and not the bodies of the martyrs when He says of them that they are not dead, but rather alive?:
Do not think of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Rather, they are alive...[Quran 3:169]
And thirdly, even if it is the soul/s and not the body which is to recieve punishment during barzakh that still doen't explain how:
1) One can be punished without, first, having received a fair trial before his Lord?
2) If Allah will punish the sinners in their graves without first having given them a fair trial, then of what point is there in having a trial on Judgment day?
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Aleikum salam Hassan
Secondly, if, as you've said, it is only the soul and not the body which will receive punishment in barzakh, then do you also believe that Allah is referring to the souls and not the bodies of the martyrs when He says of them that they are not dead, but rather alive?:
Do not think of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Rather, they are alive...[Quran 3:169]
The soul is alive [read: conscious] that after the Judgment Day they will be amongst the winners, that is, they will enter into Paradise.
And thirdly, even if it is the soul/s and not the body which is to recieve punishment during barzakh that still doen't explain how:
1) One can be punished without, first, having received a fair trial before his Lord?
2) If Allah will punish the sinners in their graves without first having given them a fair trial, then of what point is there in having a trial on Judgment day?
I think the punishment in the Barzakh is merely due to the evil acts, that is, the disobedience; and the Hell is the punishment due to the disbelief.
As a disbeliever who is unable to recognize the existence of the Angels and the miracles of the Prophets, I will send into Hell. This is the alleged "rahma" of Allah.
So no doubts, the "rahma" is only reserved to the believers. The fair trial is only make in the Judgement Day to humiliate you ahead the others, while your sentence is been choose before you're born.
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Peace ZKAB90.
You said,quote:
I think I have posted many verses that suggest a punishment in the barzakh.
I have not seen you quote any verse/s that suggest "punishment in the barzakh"!!!
Also, I understand "Barzakh" does not mean a place,but a barrier,i.e once dead you cannot come back to this life.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Peace ZKAB90.
You said,quote:
I think I have posted many verses that suggest a punishment in the barzakh.
I have not seen you quote any verse/s that suggest "punishment in the barzakh"!!!
Also, I understand "Barzakh" does not mean a place,but a barrier,i.e once dead you cannot come back to this life.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
A barrier in which is possible to suffer torture.
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Secondly, if, as you've said, it is only the soul and not the body which will receive punishment in barzakh, then do you also believe that Allah is referring to the souls and not the bodies of the martyrs when He says of them that they are not dead, but rather alive?:
Do not think of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Rather, they are alive...[Quran 3:169]
The soul is alive [read: conscious] that after the Judgment Day they will be amongst the winners, that is, they will enter into Paradise.
1) What (if any) proof or Quranic verse can you offer me to support you argument that the souls, while in the grave, is alive?
2) Furthermore, if the soul is solely alive and not wrecking any rewards till after judgement day, then can the same not be said of the souls of the evil doers? i.e they, while in their graves, will be alive but only after judgement has been passed on them will they receive their due reward
I think the punishment in the Barzakh is merely due to the evil acts, that is, the disobedience; and the Hell is the punishment due to the disbelief.
What is disbelief except a collection of evil acts.....
Furthermore, as I've asked before, would it not seem unjust for Allah to punish us (the soul or the body) without first having brought us to a fair trial for our doings?
....The fair trial is only make in the Judgement Day to humiliate you ahead the others, while your sentence is been choose before you're born.
What? Are you arguing that our sentence has already been decided for us before birth? So if I (God forbid) were sent to hell it is not because of any (evil) acts which I may have done on my own accord but rather because Allah has already willed it? Does that not seem unjust and unfair?
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Secondly, if, as you've said, it is only the soul and not the body which will receive punishment in barzakh, then do you also believe that Allah is referring to the souls and not the bodies of the martyrs when He says of them that they are not dead, but rather alive?:
Do not think of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Rather, they are alive...[Quran 3:169]
The soul is alive [read: conscious] that after the Judgment Day they will be amongst the winners, that is, they will enter into Paradise.
1) What (if any) proof or Quranic verse can you offer me to support you argument that the souls, while in the grave, is alive?
Do not think of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Rather, they are alive...[Quran 3:169]
What? Are you arguing that our sentence has already been decided for us before birth? So if I (God forbid) were sent to hell it is not because of any (evil) acts which I may have done on my own accord but rather because Allah has already willed it? Does that not seem unjust and unfair?
The words "just" and "unfair" have surely differents meaning to God.
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Salam ZKAB90,
Apologies for the late reply; I have been preoccupied with school.
To recap from were we left off:
You made the following statement:
The punishment that will occurr in the barzakh will affect only the soul, not the body. So, probably the punishment will be only a nightmare, and this is in line whith the soul affected by punishment.
And you cited the following Qurnic verse to support that statement:
Do not think of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Rather, they are alive...[Quran 3:169]
To which I asked:
If, as you've said, it is only the soul and not the body which will receive punishment in barzakh, then do you also believe that Allah is referring to the souls and not the bodies of the martyrs when He says of them that they are not dead, but rather alive?:
To which you replied by saying:
The soul is alive [read: conscious] that after the Judgment Day they will be amongst the winners, that is, they will enter into Paradise.
And with respect, that reply failed to answer the question of: If the soul is solely alive and not reaping any rewards till after judgement day, then can the same not be said of the souls of the evil doers? i.e they, while in their graves, will be alive but only after judgement has been passed on them will they receive their due punishment?
Furthermore, albeit unrelated to the main topic at hand, you made the following statements regarding predetermination:
...your sentence is been choose before you're born.
To which I responded by asking:
Are you arguing that our sentence has already been decided for us before birth? So if I (God forbid) were sent to hell it is not because of any (evil) acts which I may have done on my own accord but rather because Allah has already willed it? Does that not seem unjust and unfair?
To which you then responded by saying:
The words "just" and "unfair" have surely different meaning to God.
With respect, you can cut it however you will.....it still seems unjust to me that Allah would have already predetermined out sentence for us (assuming by sentence you me punishments).
1)Of what purpose does life serve if Allah has already predetermined our course? Of what purpose do the many tests Allah places on us serve if He has already decided the outcome for us?
2) If Allah has already predetermined our lives for us, then can I really be held accountable for my evil ways?
3)Why would Allah be furious towards some of histories greatest tyrants (such as Pharaoh, Hitler, etc) and condemn them to the hell fire if they were simply carrying out the will of Allah?
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And with respect, that reply failed to answer the question of: If the soul is solely alive and not reaping any rewards till after judgement day, then can the same not be said of the souls of the evil doers? i.e they, while in their graves, will be alive but only after judgement has been passed on them will they receive their due punishment?
Salaam Hassan;
The reward it is to the righteous only, and the peace they will experience is like an appetiser; and for the wrong doers their punishment in my opinion will be "only" a nightmare, but a horrorific one, a taste of what they will experience in the Hell. This is in line with the alleged punishment in the grave [that will occurr in the barzakh or the parallel dimension after death].
With respect, you can cut it however you will.....it still seems unjust to me that Allah would have already predetermined out sentence for us (assuming by sentence you me punishments).
1)Of what purpose does life serve if Allah has already predetermined our course? Of what purpose do the many tests Allah places on us serve if He has already decided the outcome for us?
2) If Allah has already predetermined our lives for us, then can I really be held accountable for my evil ways?
3)Why would Allah be furious towards some of histories greatest tyrants (such as Pharaoh, Hitler, etc) and condemn them to the hell fire if they were simply carrying out the will of Allah?
In my opinion we can't compare our cognitive standards with the Allah's ones. Maybe we don't understand the purpose of life [the Angels asked the same question to Allah and He answered that He know more than them] but He does. So the free will and predestination are or difficult to us to understand or we have not reach the answer yet.
Regards
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Salam ZKAB90,
for the wrong doers their punishment in my opinion will be "only" a nightmare, but a horrorific one
Can you kindly point me to which verse/s support you believe that their punishment will only be a psychological one?
Furthermore, I am still having a hard time believing that Allah (the most just) would punish a person/s without having first given them a fair trial. As I asked before: If the individual is to undergo punishment while in his/her grave (without first been given a fair trial) then what purpose does judgement day serve?
In my opinion we can't compare our cognitive standards with the Allah's ones. Maybe we don't understand the purpose of life [the Angels asked the same question to Allah and He answered that He know more than them] but He does. So the free will and predestination are or difficult to us to understand or we have not reach the answer yet.
I very much respect you opinion. But, for me, I am having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of Allah having already predetermined every one of our acts (as well as our abode in the hereafter), for reasons I have explained before.
If you are interested, here are several good articles pertaining to the subject of Allah's Will:
http://tolueislam.org/gods-will-dr-mansoor-alam/
http://islamicdawn.com/tragedies-and-afflictions-the-book-of-destiny-g-a-parwez-translated-by-khalid-sayyed/
http://resurgentislam.com/wp-content/uploads/IQBAL-AND-TAQDIR-By-Dr.-Mansoor-Alam.pdf
Peace to you.
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Can you kindly point me to which verse/s support you believe that their punishment will only be a psychological one?
Salaam, It is only a conjecture, I don't know for sure.
Furthermore, I am still having a hard time believing that Allah (the most just) would punish a person/s without having first given them a fair trial. As I asked before: If the individual is to undergo punishment while in his/her grave (without first been given a fair trial) then what purpose does judgement day serve?
Argument no. 7:
What would be the purpose of an appointed Day of Judgment if after death, one were to receive their punishment in their graves before the trial had even taken place? Conviction before trial is not a concept of justice and God is the most Just.
In effect, this would render the Day of Judgment meaningless, a fundamental belief posited by the Quran underscored by numerous Surahs and verses. God repeatedly informs His creation that He will never be unjust to his slaves and not an atom's weight of injustice will take place. All actions will be recorded in a clear record (10:61; 34:3; 99:78; 4:40).
Response:
We can't compare human courts and trials to God's Judgments. God doesn't have to hold any trial in order to punish someone. He already knows "all the evidence" and takes appropriate measures whenever He Wills.
Also, the person raising this argument himself would admit that God has punished people in this life for their sins as is clear in the Qur'an (e.g. how He punished the people of Prophets Noah, Lot, Salih, etc.). So does he also object to those Qur'anic passages saying "It's not fair for Allah to punish them before the Day of Judgment"? I doubt he would.
So why then when it comes to the punishment of the grave? There appears to be double standards at play here.
Source: http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/showthread.php?t=17588 (http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/showthread.php?t=17588)
If you are interested, here are several good articles pertaining to the subject of Allah's Will:
http://tolueislam.org/gods-will-dr-mansoor-alam/
http://islamicdawn.com/tragedies-and-afflictions-the-book-of-destiny-g-a-parwez-translated-by-khalid-sayyed/
http://resurgentislam.com/wp-content/uploads/IQBAL-AND-TAQDIR-By-Dr.-Mansoor-Alam.pdf
Thanks, but I can't take people like Ghulam Ahmed Pervez being credible due to their Neo-Mu'tazila thought. Read:
Rational Interpretation of the Quran
Parwez's writings are associated with modernism.[18] He supported Iqbal's enterprise of harmonizing the Quran with the natural sciences, and translated those verses in the Quran which are generally associated with "miracles", "angels" and "jinn" rationally as metaphors, without appealing to the supernatural.
He also questioned the virgin birth of Jesus and the miraculous interpretations of that event, arguing that the words describing the communication received by Zechariah (priest) with regards to the birth of John the Baptist are identical to the communication received by Mary concerning the birth of Jesus. Since there is no difference in the language, he asked, why would one be accepted as having been conceived via virgin-birth while the other not? He also suggested that just because the Quran does not name Jesus’ father, this is not an argument in support of virgin birth, as the Quran also omits such details regarding the history of other prophets.
While Parwez admitted the limitations of human rational faculties, which can not grasp the source and nature of the Divine, he stressed that the content of revelation can be understood rationally. He argued that unlike traditional dogmas which justify their authority using blind faith, "iman" as outlined in the Quran, forbids blind faith and requires intellectual certainty, expecting the reader to think critically and use their powers of understanding.