QM Forum
The Quran => General Discussions => Topic started by: munir rana on June 28, 2016, 03:01:46 PM
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Salam Forum Members
38:34
And We did try Solomon: We placed on his throne a body (without life); but he did turn (to Us in true devotion)
I have already read a discussion regarding this issue (title: Lifeless body on a throne). And I found the discussion incomplete. I went to Article section (prophet and messengers chapter) also, but didn't get anything regarding this issue.
So is their any clue about this verse? whose body on throne? Did Brother Joseph make any comment on this issue anywhere else?
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(The discussion mentioned (http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=539.0))
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Peace munir.
For me this is an expression " Alquaina ala kursiyihi jasadan" .
I agree with the meaning of:" Blessed him with material wealth".
Solomon, despite his wealth,submitted humbly to the Lord.
The verse just means "we tried Solomon by providing him with great wealth,yet despite all his riches, he submitted and did not become arrogant /corrupt.
So there is no body or corpse in the verse!
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Peace be upon you,
Could you provide evidence that 'جَسَدًا' means what you state it means?
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Dear good logic
Salam
Thanks for your response. I am not an expert in Arabic. I used to read various translations of the Quran to understand the meaning, and if necessary i use dictionary and concordance.
Here are the references where `jasad' is translated as a body.
1.
j-s-d- body, to embody, to take a concrete form; to coagulate; to be next to the body, ; to be dyed with saffron; Of this jasad occurs four times in the Quran.
(for details : ARABIC-ENGLISH DICTIONARY OF QUR’ANIC USAGE by ELSAID M. BADAWI and MUHAMMAD ABDEL HALEEM Page 164 )
2.
JASAD n.m.-a body .: .
7:148 (146) of their ornaments a Calf- a mere body that lowed
20:88 (90) then he brought out for them a Calf, a mere body that lowed
21:8 (8)nor did We fashion them as bodies that ate not food -
38:34 (33) We tried Solomon, and We cast upon his throne a mere body
(source: A CONCORDANCE OF THE QUR'AN by Hanna E. Kassis)
3.
And in a word-to-word translation of the Quran the word was translated as `body'
http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=38&verse=34
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Peace munir.
I agree the word "Jasadan" in Arabic means body, however I said the whole sentence including "Jasadan" is an expression .
For example "saaq" means leg, but "Yawma yukshau an saquin" is an expression meaning "The day you are exposed" Saq does not translate as leg in that sentence.
So the same way ,Jasadan does not translate literally as body in that verse.
That is my understanding.
Thank you and GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Peace,
Could you provide evidence for this?
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Peace eliiah.
I think in this situation, where I am saying it is my understanding, one uses some common sense and look at the context of the verse.
Also , Other explanations do not make sense to me.
To me in the context of the verse, "Jasadan" as corpse or body does not make sense.
And of course you can reject my understanding if you wish.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Shalom / peace Goodlogic ......once again it appears you are simply pushing Rashad Khalifas translation....there seems to be no evidence for what you are saying. ...but you will still push it!!
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Peace, I'd like to mention that the word 'جَسَدًا' isn't "a corpse", unless of course you mean to state, you have a corpse.
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Peace duster.
Please correct my understanding with a "better"one and I will gladly accept .
Also ,giving a view and saying one can reject it is not pushing anything.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Peace duster.
Please correct my understanding with a "better"one and I will gladly accept .
Also ,giving a view and saying one can reject it is not pushing anything.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Shalom / peace goodloogic ..... It appears you follow Rashad Khalifa and accept him as messenger of the covenant.....Please confirm it here openly if you don't ..... If you do, then I think you will not accept any 'better' position as you have already accepted Rashad's 'authorized' translation.....There have been many posts here on this forum where you seem to show that you simply won't accept a better argument ........ no. because the definition of 'better' is determined by you ..... sorry no hard feelings ....but I see no point.
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Peace Duster.
Let me clarify for you once more that I am a believer, I believe GOD and follow GOD Alone .
Qoran, GOD S proven word, confirms for me my beliefs.
Now, I take it you are declining my request.Then why not do it for the benefit of the readers?
Thank you and GOD bless.
Peace.
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Peace Duster.
Let me clarify for you once more that I am a believer, I believe GOD and follow GOD Alone .
Qoran, GOD S proven word, confirms for me my beliefs.
Now, I take it you are declining my request.Then why not do it for the benefit of the readers?
Thank you and GOD bless.
Peace.
Shalom / peace ... I noted how you evaded my question.... if you don't want to answer it, please just say it ...>>> as it is quite important as it explains your approach on many threads on this forum...
Do you accept Rashad Kahlifa as the messenger of the covenant??
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Peace Duster.
You already know my view. Qoran confirms for me that a messenger of God must present proof that he is God's messenger. Every messenger of God is supported by incontrovertible divine signs proving that he is authorized by the Almighty to deliver/confirm His messages.
After checking RK s claim from Qoran, I am 100% certain that he was GOD s messenger. His message was simply to follow GOD Alone by upholding Qoran Alone. i.e Qoran is the living messenger.
Now, what is your understanding about the verse 38:24?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Peace. Could it mean Solomon had his throne taken from him?
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After checking RK s claim from Qoran, I am 100% certain that he was GOD s messenger. His message was simply to follow GOD Alone by upholding Qoran Alone. i.e Qoran is the living messenger.
Now, what is your understanding about the verse 38:24?
Shalom / peace Goodlogic .... do you see why I (and maybe others) find no point in sharing any perspectives with you? I see absolutely no point as you will follow Rashad and his 'authorized' translation blindly. You have said it ... you acknowledge him as a messenger and his claim was that he was a messenger of the covenant .... So please can we not beat about the bush?????? >>>> If I saw a point in sharing a perspective that you would even consider, I would shared it ....but IMHO .... nothing that goes against Rashad's view will you be willing accept ... Whats the point? So please don't ask me to give you an understanding of 38:24!!! >>>>
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Just so that we are clear .....>>>>
RASHAD KHALIFA's Translation of 38:34 (Who claimed that 2 verses of the Qur'an were not revealed by Allah) ......
[The one that Goodlogic follows as a messenger of the covenant of Allah]
As claimed: "Appendix 1 of the Authorized English translation of Quran by Rashad Khalifa, Ph.D."
So anyone following the messenger of the covenant >>>19ers or submitters .. or those who disguise themselves but believe in Rashad and that two verses of the Qur'an are false !!!! will follow his translation as it is authorized.
Here is Rashad's translation for 38:34
[38:34] We thus put Solomon to the test; we blessed him with vast material wealth, but he steadfastly submitted.*
*38:34 & 41 Solomon and Job represent both ends of the testing spectrum. We are put to the test through wealth, health, or lack of them, to see if we worship God alone under all circumstances.
>>>>>>>>>>>
IMHO -- The link below is very insightful !!!! ... This is why i personally think it pointless to debate anyone who follows Rashad Khalifa as a messenger of the covenant ............>>> no disrespect intended .. I'm just stating it as I see it ......
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1483.msg6773#msg6773
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Peace Duster.
Thank you for your views.
Searching for the truth is not a crime. Studying Qoran is encouraged by GOD.
That is what I have been doing in the past few years to try my best to get to the truth analysing all evidence .
I have studied and analysed many other works including Quran message, which I agree with the majority of its views, but I have no doubt that Qoran backs up and agrees with RK s claim, we can go through that privately if you want to .
I am also certain that GOD composed Qoran mathematically and locked HIS words. I now have solid proof which original Qoran GOD sent through the prophet.
My search and study is ongoing of course, and I am confident and certain that I have no bias or agenda against anyone.
I am only interested in What Qoran says, whatever anyone else says,including Rashad, is irrelevant if it is not backed up by the proven words of GOD.
I do not take GOD s words lightly, I know I will be accountable.
Readers are aware that each one of us is individually responsible to check all information and find out for themselves. They will read/analyse or not... your posts, my posts,other posts and make up their own minds.
I do not have any issues with you or anyone else, I am only taking part as per agreed forum rules in friendly conversations
.I acknowledge that all have the freedom to say/choose /agree disagree ...in honesty ,sincerity and good spirit.
Thank you once more.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Dear All,
As-salamu alaykum
It is noteworthy that prophets were always being put through trials and at times, fell shy of what was expected of them. For example, Prophet Jonah was rejected / condemned by God and considered as one of the losers (adhada - 37:141). He was further mentioned as blameworthy (alama 37:142). However, his repentance was accepted as he had hitherto, been a faithful servant that had remembered / glorified God much (37:141).
Even Prophet Solomon's father, prophet David, was tried which he realised whilst providing his verdict in the case of the 99 Ewes (38:23-24). What real life incident the case of the Ewes underpinned the prophet's thoughts is not deemed important as the Quran has no intention to furnish details, and neither should one arguably unduly seek them. [1]
However, the point that even a prophet sought forgiveness and was subsequently forgiven (38:25) clearly underscores once again the maxim that even the prophets were tried and at times, fell short of what God had expected of them.
This also gives hope to us mere mortals who are not prophets of God that God’s mercy is vast if we sincerely seek it.
In the verses leading to the narrative concerning Prophet Solomon, we learn that the same maxim is being presented by the Quran - the trial of a prophet and where he has realised the need to seek forgiveness for a certain incident. In verse 38:32, we learn that momentarily, Prophet Solomon preferred the good things of the world over the remembrance of God after which he realised and made amends (38:33).
He was then tried as mentioned in verse 38:34 and whatever the incident(s) this referred to, he had cause to repent as is clearly stated by the Quran (38:34). He was then forgiven (38:35).
Therefore, the following is clear:
- Verse 38:34: A trial took place after which Prophet Solomon repented.
- Verse 38:35: The prayer for forgiveness is stated and appears to be linked to sovereignty and power.
The fact that the prayer specifically requests God not to grant such sovereignty to anyone else seems somewhat implausible to interpret as a selfish decree, given that this was man of God, a prophet. One expects altruism / goodwill and generosity from a prophet of God, not selfishness and greed.
Rather, the prayer appears to be a recognition that such power and sovereignty can cause mighty men to fall or at least be the cause of straying from God's remembrance. This seems to be supported by the previous verses where appreciation of worldly goods appears to have moved a prophet (Solomon) away from the remembrance of God, albeit momentarily.
The Bible makes many claims as to Prophet Solomon's weaknesses for women and possibly material wealth and his straying to idolatry. However, the Quran does not deem it appropriate to address, elaborate or clarify, other than clearly state that Prophet Solomon never disbelieved (2:102) despite his trials, clearly defending him from ‘kufr’.
The Arabic word 'Jasad' means a body but is also interpreted as a lifeless body. In the Quran, it has been used to describe the calf that the people of Moses made for idolatry (7:148; 20:88) and a reference to bodies that would not eat food as in verse 21:8. The interpretation for ‘Jasad’ has also been widened by some lexicographers to include other bodies such as those of different species such as the Jinn. However ,this is a tropical / figurative application.
Given that verse 38:34 presents a trial, 'jasad' in this context can be interpreted as something that infers a loss of some kind. This is a somewhat metonymical interpretation but it would not be too fantastic a suggestion to imply that 'Jasad' here implies a body of a person who became devoid of an essence that was expected of them to manage such a throne. Whether this implies a momentary lapse of remembrance in Prophet Solomon's rule to govern with such sovereignty and power (also supported by the context of the previous verses) indicated by a/his momentary lifeless (spiritual) body, or else, there has been a cause to repent by a Prophet of God.
This interpretation appears to be supported by the previous verses where there is a momentary loss of remembrance and the actual prayer of repentance which follows which appears to protect others from being tested in a similar way.
Therefore, I respectfully do not support the suggestion presented in this thread as an opinion offered by Rashad Khalifa. In my humble view, this does little to no justice to the Arabic words of the Quranic text and also interpolates in a manner that does not do appropriate justice to the surrounding context.
Finally, the verses of the Quran are protected by God and clear in Arabic for anyone to consult. There is arguably no need for Islamic secondary sources to provide fanciful explanations.
Regards,
Joseph
REFERENCE:
[1] UNKNOWN TOWNS AND NAMES - WHY FILL IN THE GAPS?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/unknown%20towns%20and%20names%20FM3.htm
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Salam Brother Joseph
Thanks for your precious input. It clarifies and enlights.
Best regards.