QM Forum
The Quran => General Discussions => Topic started by: HOPE on March 23, 2013, 10:45:19 AM
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Peace brother Joseph and all,
"He is all ears." Why is this a source of grief for the Prophet? There are several interpretive translations with subtle differences in meaning like:
He will listen to anything
He only listens
He is unquestioning
He is the one who believes everything that he hears
He gives ear to all
He is just an ear
He believes what he hears
He is only a hearer
What is your understanding of this verse? Why is he being belittled?
Thanks in advance for your input.
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Salaam!
It could be 'He gives ear to all' and all other interpretations can not be attributed to prophet and I do not think anyone can make such an objection against prophet.
The prophet is being belittled, may be, by claiming that since he gives ear to all it is easy for him to get fooled. The verse clarifies further that (just because the prophet gives ear to all it does not mean he is easy to get fooled) the prophet believes in Allah and His laws and has complete faith in the Believers (i.e. he wants to give equal importance to all types of people by listening to all and you better know that he is not going to be influenced by the views of others).
;)
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Peace,
The verse clarifies further that (just because the prophet gives ear to all it does not mean he is easy to get fooled) the prophet believes in Allah and His laws and has complete faith in the Believers (i.e. he wants to give equal importance to all types of people by listening to all and you better know that he is not going to be influenced by the views of others).
Exactly, this is my understanding, too. Why is this even an issue? Was the Prophet ever bothered by what they said that God had to clarify his position?
Maybe I'm reading more than there is to be read!
Thanks for your reply, brother
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Peace,
The verse clarifies further that (just because the prophet gives ear to all it does not mean he is easy to get fooled) the prophet believes in Allah and His laws and has complete faith in the Believers (i.e. he wants to give equal importance to all types of people by listening to all and you better know that he is not going to be influenced by the views of others).
Exactly, this is my understanding, too. Why is this even an issue? Was the Prophet ever bothered by what they said that God had to clarify his position?
Maybe I'm reading more than there is to be read!
Thanks for your reply, brother
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Salaam!
I think the issue here is serious because spreading false information and misrepresentation can make an impact among the people and such tactics could divert the people away from Islam. Personally, prophet would not bother any personal insult from anyone (there are many instances like, prophet paying a visit to a Jewish girl who insulted her when she fell sick, not taking any action against those who threw stones at him, etc), but if it is something related to misrepresentation of his character and personality, likely to cause hurdles in the propagation of true faith, then, I believe, it would become, more than being personal insult, an offense against the Islamic state and hence a serious issue. It is pertinent to note the strong warning in the verse as, "And those who annoy the Messenger of God shall have a grievous punishment."
Just I am thinking with you..
:)
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Peace Islamist,
You are correct. Thanks for making me understand better! God bless
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I think the issue here is serious because spreading false information and misrepresentation can make an impact among the people and such tactics could divert the people away from Islam. Personally, prophet would not bother any personal insult from anyone (there are many instances like, prophet paying a visit to a Jewish girl who insulted her when she fell sick, not taking any action against those who threw stones at him, etc), but if it is something related to misrepresentation of his character and personality, likely to cause hurdles in the propagation of true faith, then, I believe, it would become, more than being personal insult, an offense against the Islamic state and hence a serious issue. It is pertinent to note the strong warning in the verse as, "And those who annoy the Messenger of God shall have a grievous punishment."
Great thoughts with which I respectfully concur. Thanks for sharing :)
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Salaam!
Thank you all for the comments.
A special thanks for HOPE for making us ponder over the verse. I was discussing this verse with a friend of mine. And he was asking me what about majority of Muslims who believe - based on secondary sources - that the prophet married a six year old girl at his age 54. And Isn't it a more serious issue of annoying the prophet than what is mentioned in this verse? According to me, there is this danger of relying on secondary sources as an infallible source of guidance and also making it as a source (unknowingly) to belittle the character and personality of a messenger of Allah. This verse should serve as a warning to us - all muslims - and all Muslims must take care not to promote such stories due to the possibility of getting "double punishment" (16:25) on the Day of Judgment.
We can only pray to Allah to show us and all Muslims the right path always.
Islamist
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Peace brother Joseph and all,
"He is all ears." Why is this a source of grief for the Prophet? There are several interpretive translations with subtle differences in meaning like:
He will listen to anything
He only listens
He is unquestioning
He is the one who believes everything that he hears
He gives ear to all
He is just an ear
He believes what he hears
He is only a hearer
What is your understanding of this verse? Why is he being belittled?
Thanks in advance for your input.
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Dear Hope,
May peace be with you.
I feel verse 9:61 needs to be read in the backdrop of verse 63:4 and other related verses where it becomes clear that the Prophet was a trusting man that gave ear with the best of intentions as clarified by verse 9:61.
However, at times this well meaning nature of the Prophet was exploited by 'some' who were intent to intentionally beguile him. This is why God clearly warned him to remain vigilant.
063.004
"And when you see them their figures / bodies please you; and if they speak you listen (give ear) to their speech. (They are) as though they were blocks / pieces of wood propped up. They deem every shout to be against them. They are the enemy, so beware of them. May God destroy them ! How they are deluded / perverted!"
The warning is strapped with the underlying premise that the Prophet did have the potential to be deceived by the speech of some who were likened to 'pieces of propped wood'. Hence, one notes the wider warning for the Prophet to beware coupled with the threat of a grevious punishment to others that attempted to deceive the Prophet. (9:63; 63:4).
In another verse, we note a tacit warning directly to the Prophet in more explicit terms and how at times he had to be strengthened.
017:074-75
"And had We not given you (Muhammad) strength, you would nearly have inclined to them a little. In that case We would have made you taste double portion (of punishment) in this life, and double (punishment) after death: and moreover you would have found none to help you against Us!"
I hope that this helps, God willing.
Joseph.
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Peace brother Joseph,
So, the moral of the story in light of 63:4 is always be on your guard (isn’t this taqwa?) against the appearances that come with the potential of deception in them. Their masked elegant speech serves like a magnet. Once you are hooked on to their speech, they make you feel guilty for being suspicious of their double dealing. (munafiqun)
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Peace brother Joseph,
So, the moral of the story in light of 63:4 is always be on your guard (isn’t this taqwa?) against the appearances that come with the potential of deception in them. Their masked elegant speech serves like a magnet. Once you are hooked on to their speech, they make you feel guilty for being suspicious of their double dealing. (munafiqun)
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Absolutely dear sister. (Always retain the capacity to discern and as they say 'never judge a book by its cover' :) )
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In another verse, we note a tacit warning directly to the Prophet in more explicit terms and how at times he had to be strengthened.
017:074-75
"And had We not given you (Muhammad) strength, you would nearly have inclined to them a little. In that case We would have made you taste double portion (of punishment) in this life, and double (punishment) after death: and moreover you would have found none to help you against Us!"
Salaam!
Firstly I would like state that I won’t be posting any further clarification/ comments. But I would appreciate Bro. Joseph Islam's further comments. This is my last post in this thread.
With utmost respect, and without any intention to get into any argument, I believe I must state a few comments here since, I am afraid, an impression is made here to mean Allah deliberately interfered and strengthened the prophet from committing a wrong doing, i.e. if the prophet had not been strengthened by Allah externally, the prophet would have been inclined to them!
According to me such an understanding is problematic and the verse only means that it is the Law of return, and the prophet's own strength that he gained by remaining steadfast in Allah's laws that prevented the prophet from getting inclined toward them, and hence it is attributed to Allah. There is no question of any implication of interference by Allah against prophet’s will.
The prophet is actually commanded; “And do not incline towards, nor rely upon, those who are bent on evildoing lest the fire [of the hereafter] touch you: for [then] you would have none to protect you from God, nor would you ever be succoured [by Him] (11:113). Also the verse, “They would like thee to be soft [with them], so that they might be soft [with thee]” (68:9)
Here is also some of the supporting verses to show that it is nothing but Law of returns that strengthened the prophet's heart not to incline toward them;
And We strengthened their hearts with patience, when they stood up and said: Our Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth; we will by no means call upon any god besides Him, for then indeed we should have said an extravagant thing. (18:14)
And those who disbelieve say: Why has not the Quran been revealed to him all at once? Thus, that We may strengthen your heart by it and We have arranged it well in arranging. (25:32)
For, Believers are those who, when Allah is mentioned, feel a tremor in their hearts, and when they hear His signs rehearsed, find their faith strengthened, and put (all) their trust in their Lord; (8:2)
And the heart of the mother of Musa (Moses) became empty [from every thought, except the
thought of Musa (Moses)]. She was very near to disclose his (case, i.e. the child is her son), had We not strengthened her heart (with Faith), so that she might remain as one of the believers. (28:10)
And if We had ordered them (saying), "Kill yourselves (i.e. the innocent ones kill the guilty ones) or leave your homes," very few of them would have done it; but if they had done what they were told, it would have been better for them, and would have strengthened their (Faith); (4:66)
And if We had prescribed for them: Lay down your lives or go forth from your homes, they would not have done it except a few of them; and if they had done what they were admonished, it would have certainly been better for them and best in strengthening (them); (4:66)
Peace!
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Peace Islamist,
28:10 could be interpreted as the mother of Moses was so distressed regarding the fate of her infant that she may have become ecstatic to realize the safety of the child thus needed help to restrain her joy and remain patient. It is a normal human reaction when released from anxiety.
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Sorry for the continuation, hit the post button prematurely.
the mother's heart may have needed strengthening with extra faith if she did not find out the fate of Moses; then she would be only hoping for the best without knowing if he was alive or not. That is total reliance on God. It was not the case.
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Dear Islamist.
May peace be with you.
There is much I can share on this matter. However, given our apparent theological impasse on recent matters and our clear theological differences which is once again underscored in the manner you have positioned your last post to me (as a commentary depicting a fixed thought), I feel there is no point debating / discussing our views.
Therefore, may I kindly request that you respectfully grant me leave in participating in discussions with you which I respectfully feel have no intention to be reconciled or harmonised.
I am sure there are many readers on this forum which enjoy your input as I do too which you will have noted in my recent comment to you in this thread commending a thought.
With utmost respect,
Your brother in faith
Joseph. :)
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Peace Islamist,
28:10 could be interpreted as the mother of Moses was so distressed regarding the fate of her infant that she may have become ecstatic to realize the safety of the child thus needed help to restrain her joy and remain patient. It is a normal human reaction when released from anxiety.
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Salaam!
I need to make just one comment here. Sorry I won't be responding or posting further. This is a response to you only.
In verse 28:10 it only means that the mother of Moses had complete Trust in Allah. She knew that whatever she had been promised would be happening ultimately. Ofcourse she was very much distressed but ultimately her faith and trust in Allah strengthened her and made her not to disclose.
Please note, if something happens according to nature/ as an inevitable result/ based on Allah’s will/ Law of returns, etc. the Quran attributes such happenings/ incidents directly to Allah. Just one single example would be sufficient.
In verse 3:152 it says (in part), "....after He had shown you that for which ye long. Some of you desired the world, and some of you desired the Hereafter. Therefore He made you flee from them....."
Do you think that Here Allah forcibly shown some people (against their will) the booty (actually even the reason why they attracted to booty is mentioned in the verse) and also do you think Allah made them to flee against their will??? It was all the inevitable consequences of the circumstances and state of mind of some Muslims. Moreover, just a few verses after this in 3:165 when Muslims wondered as how come they got setback, Allah told the prophet to tell them, "Say (unto them, O Muhammad): It is from yourselves". Therefore, a literal reading for verses like "Allah showed them booty" and "Allah made them flee" is not advisable.
Take care always
Assalamu alaikum
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Salaam Islamist, why would Allah (swt) use straight forward language but imply something else? Sorry, i don't agree with your interpretations.
You say
In verse 28:10 it only means that the mother of Moses had complete Trust in Allah. She knew that whatever she had been promised would be happening ultimately. Ofcourse she was very much distressed but ultimately her faith and trust in Allah strengthened her and made her not to disclose.
I find that is not what the Quran says, but simply your interpretations.
For example, I would suspect you would not agree that Allah (swt) intervened even in the following case to answer Moses (saw) prayer?
(Moses) said: My Lord! relieve my mind, And ease my task for me; And loose a knot from my tongue, That they may understand my saying. Appoint for me a henchman from my folk, Aaron, my brother. Confirm my strength with him And let him share my task, That we may glorify Thee much And much remember Thee. Lo! Thou art ever Seeing us. (20.25-35)
He said: Thou art granted thy request, O Moses. (20.036)
How did Allah (swt) intervene here? Thanks Saba 8)
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Salaam Islamist,
In verse 28:10 it only means that the mother of Moses had complete Trust in Allah. She knew that whatever she had been promised would be happening ultimately. Ofcourse she was very much distressed but ultimately her faith and trust in Allah strengthened her and made her not to disclose.
28:7 mentions the revelation received that the mother should cast him in the river when the time comes. At this point she already has her faith and the baby was let go based on total reliance of God. She did not know the baby would be picked up by the Pharaoh's family. then fuādu ummi mūsā fārighan (empty) To be more poetic we can say (A heavy weight of anxiety was lifted or removed from the heart) Then strengthening comes to prevent her from disclosing out of joy.
This is my understanding of course and Allah knows best.
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Salaam Islamist, why would Allah (swt) use straight forward language but imply something else? Sorry, i don't agree with your interpretations.
Wassalam,
I respect your decision to disagree.
I would appreciate if you comment also why Allah (swt) used straight forward language but imply something else in the following verse I mentioned earlier?
3:152 (in part), "....after He had shown you that for which ye long. Some of you desired the world, and some of you desired the Hereafter. Therefore He made you flee from them....."
I can quote many. Just for another example;
8:17 It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah: when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah's.
For example, I would suspect you would not agree that Allah (swt) intervened even in the following case to answer Moses (saw) prayer?
(Moses) said: My Lord! relieve my mind, And ease my task for me; And loose a knot from my tongue, That they may understand my saying. Appoint for me a henchman from my folk, Aaron, my brother. Confirm my strength with him And let him share my task, That we may glorify Thee much And much remember Thee. Lo! Thou art ever Seeing us. (20.25-35)
He said: Thou art granted thy request, O Moses. (20.036)
Excuse me. The point of discussion was not a theological discussion on whether Allah intervenes or not. The point I conveyed was this. When Allah says He strengthened the prophet it does not necessarily mean Allah directly interfered and rescued the prophet. And also to believe that at times the prophet had to be strengthened to avoid inclining towards something wrong, it would even negate the very strong instruction from Allah to the prophet “do not incline towards, nor rely upon, those who are bent on evildoing" (11:113). And also it is clearly mentioned in verse 68:9 that the prophet is not a person who can easilyl get inclined to others. “They would like thee to be soft [with them], so that they might be soft [with thee]”(68:9). If we believe that the prophet had to be strengthened at times, it would mean that the prophet was incapable to practice the directions contained in verse 11:113 without the outside assistance from Allah. Even any individual can claim...Ok I inclined to something wrong because I did not get any outside assistance from Allah like prophet got. Don't you understand the seriousness of the issues here??
Take care always
Islamist
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Salaam Islamist
Don't you understand the seriousness of the issues here??
I certainly do, but I don't mean to be rude but I think for anyone to twist the interpretations of the verses because they can't reconcile verses would be a greater issue, whether it is you, me or anyone else.
And also it is clearly mentioned in verse 68:9 that the prophet is not a person who can easilyl get inclined to others. “They would like thee to be soft [with them], so that they might be soft [with thee]”(68:9). If we believe that the prophet had to be strengthened at times, it would mean that the prophet was incapable to practice the directions contained in verse 11:113 without the outside assistance from Allah.
I think this shows a problem and that you have been incapable of reconciling the verses hence you have used your interpretation to resolve the problem in your mind. In my view, you have completely misrepresented 11:113. No where does it say in either 11:113 or 68:9 that the Prophet (saw) could not incline. Otherwise what is the purpose of the threats that God gives the Prophet?
Verses 17.74-75 clearly show that he could and the verse clearly say in Arabic that he had to be strengthened. Why?
Are you suggesting that we deny the clear Arabic of the Quran?
"thabbatnāka" WE HAD STRENGTHENED YOU
and what is the point of the threat of punishment if he could not incline and didn't need strengthening? Please answer this point as you have not addressed this to my knowledge.
http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=17&verse=75
That is why I say clear Arabic. The Arabic says what it says. However, it seems you are not willing to accept what is says and therefore offer a different interpretation. No hard feelings. Just my view on your position.
Thanks. Saba
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In my view, you have completely misrepresented 11:113. No where does it say in either 11:113 or 68:9 that the Prophet (saw) could not incline.
Wassalam,
I did not say it was humanly impossible for prophet to incline. Verse 11:13 instructs the prophet not to incline towards and not to rely upon those who are bent on evildoing. And verse 68:9 states that the disbelievers would like prophet to be soft in dealing with them. Therefore, there is no question of prophet going against the instruction of Allah. The verse 68:9 further confirms that the prophet was practicing the instruction contained in 11:13 through out his life.
and what is the point of the threat of punishment if he could not incline and didn't need strengthening? Please answer this point as you have not addressed this to my knowledge.
This question is valid if I said it was humanly impossible for prophet to incline. You are in a wrong presumption that prophet was in need of extra outside support from Allah for not inclining towards them.
That is why I say clear Arabic. The Arabic says what it says. However, it seems you are not willing to accept what is says and therefore offer a different interpretation.
Remaining consistent on this view, without going beyond what the clear Arabic states, if you can explain just the two verses I quoted in my last post, (3:152 & 8:17) I shall withdraw my comments.
No hard feelings. Just my view on your position.
I too have no hard feelings. We need to consider this as a learning process.
Sincerely,
Islamist
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Salaam Islamist.
It seems you have edited your post when I was typing a response (the notification I received had a different comment as I'm sure other readers with notifications would have have noted) and then you retracted your statement "The verse 68:9 further confirms that it was not the nature of prophet to incline towards anyone. ".
Otherwise I would have asked you clearly where in verse 68:9 does it say that it was not in the nature of the Prophet to incline towards anyone? However, this first comment you made seems to show me the reason why you are actually finding it so difficult to reconcile the verses as you do not believe that its in the Prophet's nature to incline!
Now it seems you have replaced this comment with
"The verse 68:9 further confirms that the prophet was practicing the instruction contained in 11:13 through out his life."
Now please can you prove this statement.
Yes indeed, let us learn together but let us all be honest about the deep convictions and beliefs we have inside us which we don't want to challenge.
Thanks, Saba
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Salaam Islamist.
It seems you have edited your post when I was typing a response (the notification I received had a different comment as I'm sure other readers with notifications would have have noted) and then you retracted your statement "The verse 68:9 further confirms that it was not the nature of prophet to incline towards anyone. ".
Otherwise I would have asked you clearly where in verse 68:9 does it say that it was not in the nature of the Prophet to incline towards anyone? However, this first comment you made seems to show me the reason why you are actually finding it so difficult to reconcile the verses as you do not believe that its in the Prophet's nature to incline!
Now it seems you have replaced this comment with
"The verse 68:9 further confirms that the prophet was practicing the instruction contained in 11:113 through out his life."
Now please can you prove this statement.
Yes indeed, let us learn together but let us all be honest about the deep convictions and beliefs we have inside us which we don't want to challenge.
Thanks, Saba
Wassalam,
Actually I consider your objection as very silly :)
I was actually replacing the comment with something more clearer. It does not mean I did not agree with the comment I edited. I do not think there is a big difference between my comment, 'it was not the nature of the prophet to incline towards anyone' and 'the prophet was practicing the instruction contained in the verse 11:113 because what the verse 68:9 clearly stating is that, let me quote two translations, They would like thee to be soft [with them], so that they might be soft [with thee] (M.Asad); Their desire is that thou shouldst be pliant: so would they be pliant (Yousuf Ali). The point is very clear. They want prophet to be soft, but the prophet is not vulnerable. If the prophet had been already soft with them, it would not have mentioned in 68:9 that they desire the prophet to be soft. Therefore, this makes it clear that the prophet had been practicing the instruction contained in 11:113. It does not require any further proof.
By the way, I would like to friendly remind you that you have not touched one of the main points in my previous post regarding clear Arabic words in the Quran.
Regards,
Islamist
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Actually I find your accusation very silly :)
Please don't insult me with a smile. I take offence to tactics such as that! How would you feel if I said that I actually find your whole approach really silly and ended it with a smile? So please refrain!
Now as you don't feel that you disagree with your earlier comment. Can you then please provide evidence for this earlier comment of yours.
"The verse 68:9 further confirms that it was not the nature of prophet to incline towards anyone. "
And please this time, can you not skirt the issue.
Thanks. Saba
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Can we please remind all participants to remain civil with each other or this thread will be suspended. Thanks.
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Salaam Islamist,
God can intervene and give strength whenever He wills. Not everything is about the 'Law Of Returns'.
The verses you cite are ones where God instructs the prophet to do things in a certain way, especially when others around him expect him to behave differently.
However the verses Saba talked about are when God intervenes. You say that God can't externally influence the prophet when 'he would have inclined' but He did the same for prophet Joseph :
12.24
"She verily desired him, and he would have desired her if it had not been that he saw the argument of his Lord. Thus it was, that We might ward off from him evil and lewdness. Lo! he was of Our chosen slaves."
God obviously put some thoughts into the mind of Joseph in order to keep him away from temptation.
Regarding the 'Law Of Returns'..how did this 'law' tell the mother of Moses what to do with him as a baby and that her son would become a messenger?
28:7
"And We inspired the mother of Moses, saying: Suckle him and, when thou fearest for him, then cast him into the river and fear not nor grieve. Lo! We shall bring him back unto thee and shall make him (one) of Our messengers."
God gives instructions, also intervenes and some things happen as a result what our 'hands have earned'. There is not one rule for everything.
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So please refrain!
Salaam!
I am sorry. I won't repeat again. I really did not intend to cause any hurt. It was 'my editing' which made you not to ask a 'good question' (according to you) that made me to smile. But I gave a wrong impression. Sorry.
Can you then please provide evidence for this earlier comment of yours.
According to me it is the implication of verse 68:9. It was not the nature/ character / personality of the prophet to incline. The case otherwise is scary even to just think. Evidence is needed (logically) to disprove the statement not to prove. Therefore, the onus is on you to disprove my statement with evidences.
PS: The verse 11:113 must be read together with “I follow nothing except what is revealed to me. I fear, were I to disobey my Lord, the punishment of a Dreadful Day“(10:16)
Kind regards
Islamist
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Salaam Islamist,
I am sorry. I won't repeat again. I really did not intend to cause any hurt. It was 'my editing' which made you not to ask a 'good question' (according to you) that made me to smile. But I gave a wrong impression. Sorry.
No problem and thanks. Let us then move on ;D 8)
Evidence is needed (logically) to disprove the statement not to prove. Therefore, the onus is on you to disprove my statement with evidences.
Ok - this is where I very much disagree with you. It is in the human nature to incline and Prophet's have been shown the potential to at times incline. You are taking the position of an extraordinary human characteristic despite the Qur'an clearly stating the potential of the Prophet's inclination in clear Arabic terms as I have already shared in this thread. Therefore, the proof burden is very much with you to prove and not me.
Therefore, I await your evidence.
Thanks, Saba. 8)
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You say that God can't externally influence the prophet when 'he would have inclined'
Wa' alaikumussalam
Kindl note, I did not say God can't externally influence the prophet. My position was God did not externally influence the prophet when Allah said He strengthened the prophet. Allah attributes to Himself (as though He himself is doing the actions) if an event ends up into its natural consequences. I cited an example (out of many) to make clear the point, verse 3:152 (in part); "....after He had shown you that for which ye long. Some of you desired the world, and some of you desired the Hereafter. Therefore He made you flee from them....". Here Allah mentions about certain actions as if He himself is doing. Do you think here Allah interfered in the war externally? Please note, the question is not whether Allah can interfere (please refer 3:165 before commenting).
Kind regards
Islamist
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Ok - this is where I very much disagree with you. It is in the human nature to incline and Prophet's have been shown the potential to at times incline. You are taking the position of an extraordinary human characteristic despite the Qur'an clearly stating the potential of the Prophet's inclination in clear Arabic terms as I have already shared in this thread. Therefore, the proof burden is very much with you to prove and not me.
Therefore, I await your evidence.
Salaam!
With utmost respect, I kindly request you to substantiate first your point "it is the human nature to incline" with supporting verses and any evidences. You are asking me to prove something based on your assumption.
Only one thing I want to tell you at the moment. Those who do not believe in Allah and those have no faith in the truthfulness of Allah's laws and those who have no Eman may get inclined, certainly not Allah's sincere believers. Here is the evidence.
(Iblis) said: "O my Lord! because Thou hast put me in the wrong, I will make (wrong) fair-seeming to them on the earth, and I will put them all in the wrong, except Thy servants among them, sincere and purified. (Allah) said: "This (way of My sincere servants) is indeed a way that leads straight to Me. "For over My servants no authority shalt thou have, except such as put themselves in the wrong and follow thee." (15:39-42)
Therefore, please think, whether it would require Allah to externally interfere to rescue the Prophet from getting inclined to something wrong. Note: according to the above verse no sincere believer can inclined - then think about prophet whether he is likely to get inclined. We fail to appreciate the Quranic verses in the correct sense. This is the problem.
Regards,
Islamist
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@Truth Seeker
I would like to make one comment also. Please note the following verse;
And We strengthened their hearts with patience, when they stood up and said: Our Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth; we will by no means call upon any god besides Him, for then indeed we should have said an extravagant thing. (18:14)
Let me ask. Is there any need to interpret that when the young men of the cave stood up and said so and so Allah externally interfered and strengthened their hearts? The strengthening of their heart was the natural consequences of their declaration of complete faith in Allah and firm conviction. But Allah attributed it to Himself because it was the result of Law of returns. Similarly another verse "When they turned away, Allah turned their hearts away" 9:127. This does not mean Allah externally interfered and turned away their hearts. I Hope the point I am making is clear to you and I do hope at least you will consider the possibility of this understanding when Allah states about strengthening the prophet.
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Salaam Islamist,
With utmost respect, I kindly request you to substantiate first your point "it is the human nature to incline" with supporting verses and any evidences. You are asking me to prove something based on your assumption.
Humans are created weak (4.28) and I am truly surprised that you would even ask evidence for this.
What is the point of the Qur'an if it not to guide? The Qur'an is meant for both humans and messengers. Messengers needed guidance as much as other believers. Remember, I am only talking about the potential to make errors of judgement and not outright following satan.....therefore the verse you quoted (15.39-42) are not relevant for the purposes we are discussing.
Like I said earlier, I feel that in your mind you cannot accept the potential of messengers to make at time errors of judgement. You will therefore seek to confirm your beliefs from any verses to prove your point even though there are clear verses which challenge your understanding.
Why did the Prophet make errors of judgement where Allah (swt) had to admonish him? Surely I don't have to quote all these verses to you.
The potential is there, please consider this. The messengers are also under trial like other believers and sometimes can make errors of judgement.
"and thou didst fear mankind whereas Allah hath a better right that thou shouldst fear Him." (33.37)
What happened here?
Why did the Prophet fear people when he should have feared Allah (swt)? Did he not have taqwa or was it simply a slip / a slight error of judgement?
Why were believers asked in the following verse to follow the Prophet in what is right?
"and that they will not disobey you in any just matter (or what is right / good)" (60.12)
Why did the Qur'an simply not say follow the Prophet in everything?
Does that mean that at times the Prophet's judgement could be questioned?
We fail to appreciate the Quranic verses in the correct sense. This is the problem.
Without meaning to sound rude at all, I could say that this is exactly what is happening in your understanding. Certainly at the moment you have not provided any clear evidence.
Thanks. Saba. :) 8)
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Salaam Saba,
With all respect, in order not to deviate from the issue under discussion, if you have a case it is the nature of a true believer to incline, we shall continue our discussion and I shall provide you evidences. The whole discussion is centric around "Believers". This is just to ensure that we are focused on the point. Kindly let me know if you have such a case.
Also one more thing. You are just focusing and strongly countering my comment, 'it was NOT the nature of the prophet to incline'. Do you have a case that it was the nature of the prophet to incline (considering also prophet was a firm believer and prophet had complete trust in Allah). Kindly state explicitly this point so that I can understand clearly your stand.
Kind regards,
Islamist
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"And had We not given you (Muhammad) strength, you would nearly have inclined to them a little. In that case We would have made you taste double portion (of punishment) in this life, and double (punishment) after death: and moreover you would have found none to help you against Us!" 17:074-75
According to me, there is one point we all should note in the above verse. Mentioning about 'double punishment' for the prophet makes it clear that it was prophet's own individual decision/ action as a result of his complete faith in Allah and Eman (without interference from outside) that made the prophet not to get inclined (so warning makes sense here). If there was outside interference (which made the prophet not to incline), there is absolutely no reason why the prophet should be warned (since outside Allah's interference means there was no question of prophet getting inclined to them in anycase).
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Salaam Islamist
With all respect, in order not to deviate from the issue under discussion, if you have a case it is the nature of a true believer to incline, we shall continue our discussion and I shall provide you evidences. The whole discussion is centric around "Believers". This is just to ensure that we are focused on the point. Kindly let me know if you have such a case.
With all respect to you too sir, if I give you a verse where it clearly shows that the Prophet could incline such as 17:74-75 in clear Arabic speech, you refuse to accept it. Then you start applying complex interpretations and then in the end reject it because it does not fit with your philosophy. What am I meant to do? In my view, anyone unbiased reading this verse will clearly realize that the potential was there otherwise the threat of punishment makes no sense.
So it seem to me pointless to make you see evidence, because without sounding rude, you do not want to see it or accept it.
If you want to apply your own criteria on clear verses then that is up to you. Please don't accept others to blindly accept it. For me, your argument is very very weak and I mean that without meaning to be rude.
What else am I meant to do?
Saba
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Salaam Saba and Islamist,
What else am I meant to do?
Nothing sister. You tried and the example you provided 17:74-75 says it all.
Islamist, The Quraish had wished to turn the prophet away from his mission by applying temptations as well as force and had "WE" not made you firm thabbatnāka, strengthened you,you would have inclined to them a little. Making a small concession to compromise even to fulfill a divine mission is not acceptable for God - 5:2 “do not cooperate in sin and transgression”. Two wrongs do not add up to right. His punishment would be doubled: first for his own nafs for not taking responsibility, second for the improper guidance of mankind. God is not taking chances; protects His rasuls. After all, they are humans. Potentiality is in the DNA.
Let us agree to disagree and move on to another issue.
(http://quransmessage.com/forum/Smileys/default/smiley.gif)
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Thank you so much sister Hope. I was losing 'hope'! :( and then you came along. ;D Such an apt name you have! I believe your wisdom is the best thing said in this entire thread. ;D 8) Saba
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Islamist, The Quraish had wished to turn the prophet away from his mission by applying temptations as well as force and had "WE" not made you firm thabbatnāka, strengthened you,you would have inclined to them a little. Making a small concession to compromise even to fulfill a divine mission is not acceptable for God - 5:2 “do not cooperate in sin and transgression”. Two wrongs do not add up to right. His punishment would be doubled: first for his own nafs for not taking responsibility, second for the improper guidance of mankind. God is not taking chances; protects His rasuls. After all, they are humans. Potentiality is in the DNA.
Let us agree to disagree and move on to another issue.
(http://quransmessage.com/forum/Smileys/default/smiley.gif)
Salaam Hope,
I agree with you. Let us agree to disagree. Thank you for your comments.
Just as a final note, we focused on English translation "strengthened" for thabbatnāka which was primarily because we relied on certain translation. I notice majority of scholars translated it as making the prophet to stand firm which is consistent with the use of the word in the Quran. The word "strengthen" gives an impression the prophet was incapable by himself and therefore needed outside interference. Here is translation by Pikthall & Mohammed Asad.
"And if We had not made thee wholly firm thou mightest almost have inclined unto them a little" (Pikthall)
"And had We not made thee firm [in faith], thou might have inclined to them a little" (M. Asad)
Let us check a few verse from Quran where this word has come.
14:24 أَصْلُهَا ثَابِتٌ (asluha thabitun) = tree, firmly rooted
8:11 وَيُثَبِّتَ بِهِ الْأَقْدَامَ (wayuthabbita bihi alaqdama) = to make firm your steps
14:27 يُثَبِّتُ اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا بِالْقَوْلِ الثَّابِتِ فِي الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا وَفِي الْآخِرَةِ (Yuthabbitu Allahu allatheena amanoo bialqawli alththabiti fee alhayati alddunya wafee alakhirati) = Thus,] God grants firmness unto those who have attained to faith through the word that is unshakably true in the life of this world as well as in the life to come. (Isn't this firmness that was given to the prophet?)
Thank you all for sharing your views. If anyone felt anything bad about me, please forgive me.
Assalamu alaikum
Islamist
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Firm, strengthened, braced, constant, fortified, steadfast, staunch, or whatever anyone wants to call it, it doesn't change a thing.
http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/17/74/
In the end, something was done to the Prophet which stopped him from inclining. Without seeming to be rude, I feel great effort has been made to alter the straight forward meaning of the text because a particular belief stopped a straight forward reading.
Saba
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Dear all -
The moderators have felt the views on this thread have now been exhausted. Therefore, we have decided to lock the thread.
Thank you all for participating.
This thread is now closed.