QM Forum
The Quran => General Discussions => Topic started by: Asfar Warraich on January 17, 2016, 06:58:20 PM
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Peace brother in Islam,
"Cutting off the hands of thieves,
Stoning married adulterers to death,
Lashing unmarried adulterers 100 times,
Lashing alcohol drinkers 40 or 80 times,
Stoning to death for sodomy,
These are all Islamic punishments supported by the Quran and hadith.
You still claim it is a religion of peace?"
What is the appropriate response to this particular argument of an Atheist or Christian or whoever.
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Peace Asfar
I do not find Qoran supporting your claim When you say,quote:
These are all Islamic punishments supported by the Quran and hadith.
I am not interested what Hadith supports or does not support, however in my opinion Qoran certainly does not support these punishments.
I am happy to discuss the Qoran verses that you think do.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Salaam Asfar Warraich,
My response to anyone who claims that Islam isn't a 'religion of peace' because of some of the 'punishment you cited' is as follows:
1) No-where in the Quran does it support cutting off the hands of thieves, the stoning of adulterers lashing alcohol drinkers Stoning to death for sodomy,. Bear in mind that I said no-where in the Quran; I acknowledge that some of the punishment you alluded to are mentioned in the hadith. But as you may (or may not) have noticed, this community/forum consists of individuals who uphold the Quran as the only source necessary for our (spiritual) guidance. As for the hadith, it is common knowledge that whatever is written in the must meet two criteria prior to accepting them as legitimate: 1)it must not contradict the Quran, 2) it must find clear, unequivocal, and unambiguous support from the Quran. With that said, it is evident to anyone who has ever studied the Quran that some of the punishments you've alluded to find absolutely no support from the Quran.
Now with regards to the lashing of adulterers, it is true that the Quran supports said punishment. And I, personally, see no problem in that; nor do I find them to be cruel. Every nation/religion has its own (and unique) way of dealing with wrongdoers.
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Salam alaikum Asfar,
Cutting off the hands of thieves - Is prescribed in the Quran
Stoning married adulterers to death - No support from the Quran
Lashing unmarried adulterers 100 times, - Is prescribed in the Quran for married ones as well (immorality is equally grave sin no matter if its commiter is single or married)
Lashing alcohol drinkers 40 or 80 times - No support from the Quran
Stoning to death for sodomy - No support from the Quran
The ones not supported from the Quran have originated from sources of dubious origins. Now lets focus on the ones supported from Quran: lashing adulterers and cutting off hands of thieves.
What comes as a surprise to many muslims (especially sunni ones) is that Quran does not differ between immorality commited from singles and from married ones. Its punishment is same for both: 100 lashes after 4 credible witnesses have seen the act with their own eyes. I emphasize: 4 people must have seen the act with their own eyes. And no, the lash shouldn't be strong and harsh to kill the victim. The point is to disgrace them in front of people and to make them realise what they have done, and to repent and mend their ways. It is not a death punishment. Death punishment is prescribed by God only for murder and for spreading mischief on earth.
Yes, some people might say it is a cruel punishment (just like for the hand cutting). But these people have to see the bigger picture here. If 4 people managed to see that act with their own eyes, it must have been happening in a relatively public space and in an hour when people are moving or working. If no punishment would be prescribed then this evil act would become normal and human society would start to degenerate and corrupt. That's the whole purpose of God's laws: to protect the human society from degeneration and corruption, and to keep it morally chaste and socially safe.
Anyway, the adulterers are left alive, but not without punishment at all.
As to cutting hands of the thief, it is not for ordinary theft. Check our brother's article which explains it in detail
http://quransmessage.com/articles/thief%20hands%20FM3.htm
God bless you,
Seraphina
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Peace.
I cannot understand those who want justice , but deny GOD s justice.
GOD s system is just. Nowhere in Qoran do I find any punishment for those that "repent and reform" i.e Are sorry and see the error of their ways!!!!
So to sum up :
1--These punishments are not found anywhere in Qoran:
Cutting off the hands of thieves,
Stoning married adulterers to death,
Lashing alcohol drinkers 40 or 80 times,
Stoning to death for sodomy,
2--- The cutting of the hand is a" symbolic marking" so that everyone is made aware of the "thief". It is a mistranslation of the word to say "cutting the hand" is the actual meaning. Consider this verse :
12:31
When she heard of their gossip, she invited them, prepared for them a comfortable place, and gave each of them a knife. She then said to him, "Enter their room." When they saw him, they so admired him, that they cut their hands.* They said, "Glory be to God, this is not a human being; this is an honorable angel."
فَلَمّا سَمِعَت بِمَكرِهِنَّ أَرسَلَت إِلَيهِنَّ وَأَعتَدَت لَهُنَّ مُتَّكَـًٔا وَءاتَت كُلَّ وٰحِدَةٍ مِنهُنَّ سِكّينًا وَقالَتِ اخرُج عَلَيهِنَّ فَلَمّا رَأَينَهُ أَكبَرنَهُ وَقَطَّعنَ أَيدِيَهُنَّ وَقُلنَ حٰشَ لِلَّهِ ما هٰذا بَشَرًا إِن هٰذا إِلّا مَلَكٌ كَريمٌ
It is the same word used in this sentence Are we saying the women "Cut their hands" completely ?So what does it really mean then?
3- Why do we emphasise the 100 lashes and ignore the following verse that comes after the 100 lashes and 80 lashes of adultery completely?
24:5
If they repent afterwards and reform, then God is Forgiver, Merciful.
إِلَّا الَّذينَ تابوا مِن بَعدِ ذٰلِكَ وَأَصلَحوا فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفورٌ رَحيمٌ
Why do people not see the justice and mercy of Qoran?,they only see the fair sanctions out of context !!!!
There is no unjust punishment in Qoran. There is only Mercy and justice.
Complete peace for all those who love their fellow humans.
GOD bless.
Peace.
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Peach Brothers and Sisters,
thanks all of you, especially #Seraphina because he/she elaborated the impact of this evil on society.
I did not make any claim about these punishments, this is the typical response of someone criticizing Islam. I joined this forum because I have a complete Quranic approach, I just wanted to know what is the appropriate response to this argument. They dont know this religion is Quran centered, most of their questions about Islam are related to Hadiths. I am asking for the appropriate response to queries related to Hadith.
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Salam Asfar,
Seraphina is a ''she'' :)
And im having a bit difficulty to understand has the answer helped or not?
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Hi! :)
I had a question about this: The Quran prescribes 100 lashes for adultery but then says, "those who repent afterward, God is most forgiving and merciful." Does this mean that if someone commits a sin i.e. adultery and repents, then they don't get the 100 lashes? Or does it mean that they repent only after they get the punishment, and then God forgives them? Just wondering ;)
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Yes the Quraan does mention all these things you are correct 100%
And the Qurannioon who say it doesn't go read the Quraan.
My reply is yes islam mentions all those things to protect society from evils and the same laws are in the Torah and bible so are they not a religion of peace?
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Salaam Qadada,
You said:
Yes the Quraan does mention all these things
may you be so kind as to cite us which verses of the Quran support 1)cutting off the hand of the thieves, 2) stoning adulteress to death, 3) Lashing alcohol drinkers 40 or 80 times?
And the Qurannioon who say it doesn't go read the Quraan
Perhaps it is you who needs to read the Quran, seen as how you (falsely) believe the Quran approves of the punishments alluded to above.
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No problem I will. But I am not here to cause issues I am here to get along and discuss its open mind.
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As for whipping adultress 100 times - verse 24:2
http://www.masjidtucson.org/quran/frames/ch24.html
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Cutting hands for thefts 5:38
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Salaam Qadada,
You said:
As for whipping adultress 100 times - verse 24:2
I never disputed the fact that the Quran prescribes a 100 lashes for adulterers. What I dispute are the claims that the Quran prescribes cutting off the hands of thieves, or the lashing of alcohol drinkers or the stoning of adulterers.
With respect to cutting off the hands, please read the following article which refutes this commonly held believe from a Quran perspective:
CUTTING THE HANDS OF A THIEF - NO ORDINARY THIEF
http://quransmessage.com/articles/thief%20hands%20FM3.htm
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No sorry the verse says cut off it can't be reinterpret and I read the article it proved nothing.
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the other two things are in hadith I though it was in Quraan but Quraan doesnt teach all details.
How do you pray?
The details are not there.
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Salaam Qadada,
You said:
No sorry the verse says cut off it can't be reinterpret and I read the article it proved nothing.
With all due respect, that's a childish argument. The author of the article you read clearly showed you what that verse means (basing his support solely from the Quran). If you disagree and believe otherwise then present your counter-argument, solely from the Quran.
And what do you mean when you say it can't be reinterpreted? What makes your interpretation the correct one?
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Salaam Qadada,
You said:
the other two things are in hadith I though it was in Quraan but Quraan doesnt teach all details
With all due respect I completely disagree with you. The Quran claims to be a fully detailed explanation (Arabic: fussilat 41:3; 11:1). It also claims to be a clear explanation of all matters (Arabic: tibiana lekulli shayin 16:89). A scripture cannot make these fanciful claims and yet on the other-hand not provide necessary details for human guidance as part of God ordained 'religion', or claimed to be (by some) incomplete, lacking details, and in need/dependent on other/secondary sources.
A scripture cannot be 'fussilat' and then not provide necessary details for human guidance as part of God ordained 'religion'.
So allow me to ask you a question: If those punishments are necessary for our guidance, then why hasn't Allah mention them in the Quran? The very Quran Allah has said is fully detailed and a clear explanation of all things.
What reason would Allah have not to detail it in the quran? Or we to believe that Allah forgot to mention such details in the quran or that He ran out of words and thus left it up to fallible men to give mention to it?
You also asked:
How do you pray
Again, the following article explains prayer form a Quran perspective, as well.:
http://quransmessage.com/articles/prayer%20without%20hadith%20FM3.htm
Allow me to ask you another question, sense you assume the Quran doesn't mention how to pray:
1) The Quran claims to be a book (full) of guidance and one which guides to a path which is most firm, right, straight and stable (see: 31:3; 17:9; 2:2-3; 17:9; 16:89). For a book to guide, it would follow that said book would contain all info, details and practices necessary for our guidance and which would therefore lead to that guidance. But to accept the argument that the salat, which is necessary for our guidance, cannot be found in the Quran and can therefore only be found in other sources, is to concede to the idea that the Quran is not necessarily a book “of guidance”. Because how can it, on the one hand claim/call itself a "book of guidance/a guidance for mankind", and yet on the other hand omit things the very thing necessary for our guidance? In such instance the Quran would only contain “half guidance”.
2) If, as you seem to believe, the salat is not alluded to in the Quran, then why do you believe that is? Why would Allah not mention the salat in the Quran? Are we, again, to believe that Allah forgot to mention such details in the quran?
3)Would you be so kind as to tell us which hadith describes how to pray? And if the haidth teach us how to offer salat then how do you explain the many different methods of prayer from both the Sunnis and the Shiits (and the sub-sects within them)?
4) and if the Quran, as you claim, doesn't contain all the details necessary for our guidance, then may I ask what purpose the Quran serves us? What are we to think of a scripture (i.e the Quran) that repeatedly emphasizes a certain act/practice (such as salah and zakat) but never explains (as you claim) how to perform said act/practice? The conclusion drawn would be that said scripture is a terrible omission and in that case it cannot be from God.
Please answer each one of the question I posed to you.
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Bro Qadada are you 19er? Why did quote Masjid Tuscan translation? Please clarify.
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Salam Sardar Miyan,
Clearly he's not a 19er. He's arguing in support of hadiths. The Masjidtuscon translation is just that--a translation. :)
Salam everyone else,
Maybe we should stay on topic here? ;) Just to cover, I've added a couple articles Qadada should look at:
http://quransmessage.com/articles/god%20has%20warned%20believers%20to%20only%20follow%20the%20quran%20FM3.htm
http://quransmessage.com/articles/hadith%20and%20sunna%20FM3.htm
Brother Qadada, if you look at these objectively they should clear up any issues.
I asked a question earlier on this thread--if someone commits a sin, like theft or adultery, and repents before they are punished, is the punishment lifted? :o
Mia
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See this:
http://misconceptions-about-islam.com/cut-off-hands-theft.htm