QM Forum
The Quran => General Discussions => Topic started by: Anwar on June 10, 2014, 01:12:53 PM
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Peace,
I know this has been discussed already and actually I do not have any questions on the issue but rather some statements.
1. I do not believe alchohol to be forbidden, given the Qur'an's use of sakar in what can be taken as a positive light in 16:67. The 'wa rizqan hasanan' can even be taken as a descriptive of the alcoholic drink taken from the products of (date) palms and grapes.
2. Khamr can mean: covering, wine, grapes, leavening (yeast or the fermentation process of yeast) as well as inebriation, intoxication and drunkenness.
3. Taking one of the meanings of khamr as 'to cover' and interpreting that into 'to cover one's mind' in the case of wine is etymological opinion. It is also one that proves irrelevant in front of meanings such as grapes and leavening.
4. Taking khamr as 'something that covers one's mind' and applying this to all inebriants/intoxicants is etymological conjecture on top of Classical Islamic qiyaas, which is no more than more conjecture to be brutally honest.
5. Khamr's valid meaning of drunkenness/inebriation, although less known fits the larger Quranic context of alcohol consumption better. First we have avoid 'khamr', avoid (tajannub/ijtinaab) is usually used for things that you may be faced with often. The Quran doesn't say avoid other sins, it just tells us not to do them. Secondly we have the Quran telling us not to pray while drunk. Yes this can be other sorts of stupors like extreme anger, sadness or even sleepiness (hmmm?), but this is opening up the fact that the Quran is showing us that we can be/are/will be engaging in a sort of behavior that may cause us to be drunk when it is time to pray.
6. As far as I understand inebriation is not limited to alcohol consumption and naturally applies to inebriation caused by non-alcoholic sources.
7. My conclusion is that while substances that can inebriate like wine and others are allowed, we are explicitly told to avoid inebriation which means limiting consumption. This makes accidental inebriation forgivable but not purposeful inebriation. In general the Quran tells us to stay away from what is harmful, to protect ourselves from harm and to engage and partake in 'at-tayyibaat.' If the substance we are using is harmful as far as we know, it is a sin for us to use it. If it inebriates us we are to limit consumption or abstain altogether
8. Acccording to 16:67, alcoholic drink make from atleast dates and grapes are good provision. However, we are expressedly told to avoid becoming inebriated.
9. If this bothers some because they want the Quran to be applied to the masses and know that the masses will not be able to show such self-discipline, intelligence and restraint I would like to remind everyone that the Quran does not say that it is for the masses. It says that it is for those who use intelligence, wisdom, ponder and carefully think. It says that most people (the masses) are like cattle or worse.
10. My advice is that if you cannot drink without getting drunk, do not drink Additionally over-consumption of alcohol is harmful to the body and the liver in particular. To engage in harmful activities that only serve to harm is against the fundamental concept of taqwaa in the Qur'an, which is self-protection or protection from harm in this life and the next.
Salaam
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Salam Anwar,
I have a few comments.
1. I do not believe alchohol to be forbidden, given the Qur'an's use of sakar in what can be taken as a positive light in 16:67. The 'wa rizqan hasanan' can even be taken as a descriptive of the alcoholic drink taken from the products of (date) palms and grapes.
[16:67]
And from the fruits of the palm trees and grapevines you take intoxicant and good provision. Indeed in that is a sign for a people who reason.
According to the verse "fruits of the palm trees and grapevines" are taken as intoxicant and good provision. This does not mean that intoxicants are part of the good provision. Its the "fruits of the palm trees and grapevines" that are.
10. My advice is that if you cannot drink without getting drunk, do not drink Additionally over-consumption of alcohol is harmful to the body and the liver in particular. To engage in harmful activities that only serve to harm is against the fundamental concept of taqwaa in the Qur'an, which is self-protection or protection from harm in this life and the next.
The Quran does not say do not to over consume it clearly says stay away from it.
[5:91]
Satan only wants to cause between you animosity and hatred through intoxicants and gambling and to avert you from the remembrance of Allah and from prayer. So will you not desist?
Additionally, the Quran states that its sin is greater than its benefit. It did not relate it to overconsumption. Therefore it can be deduced than this applies to any amount.
[2:219]
They ask you about wine and gambling. Say, "In them is great sin and [yet, some] benefit for people. But their sin is greater than their benefit." And they ask you what they should spend. Say, "The excess [beyond needs]." Thus Allah makes clear to you the verses [of revelation] that you might give thought.
Thoughts ?
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Ahmed,
I understand your point. However, it would seem that you do not understand all of the grammatical functions of wa. 'wa' can be used an marker for further clarification.
And that is my point. Your understanding is valid, but so is mine according to Classical Arabic grammar. Rarely are phrses within Quranic verses limited to one understanding. Because the 'wa' CAN be being used as a marker for further clarification, who am I to disallow what is grammatically valid in that context?
Again, I also clearly explained the meanings of Khamr, pigeon-holing it as just 'wine' is an unwillingness to recognize the breadth of Classical Arabic words and their meanings. Taking all of the valid meanings of these verses I find that alcohol is not forbidden, drunkenness is. I find this to be more consistent with all that the Qur'an says on the subject and to be even more comprehensive given that the state of inebriation can be caused by substances other than alcohol.
Salaam
It is okay if you disagree. This is a natural bias for those of us who grew up as tradtionalist Muslims or who are from culture's where the majority are traditionalist Muslim. So think on what I have said. If you do not understand it don't follow it. Afterall, the Quran says 'laa taqfu maa laisa laka bihi 3ilm', so it is sunnah/uswah to refrain from what we do not understand.
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Dear Anwar,
Please see my comments after the quotations.
I understand your point. However, it would seem that you do not understand all of the grammatical functions of wa. 'wa' can be used an marker for further clarification.
And that is my point. Your understanding is valid, but so is mine according to Classical Arabic grammar. Rarely are phrses within Quranic verses limited to one understanding. Because the 'wa' CAN be being used as a marker for further clarification, who am I to disallow what is grammatically valid in that context?
An example to what you are referring to are the verses that contain "The book and Wisdom" such as the following one.
[2:129]
Our Lord, and send among them a messenger from themselves who will recite to them Your verses and teach them the Book and wisdom and purify them. Indeed, You are the Exalted in Might, the Wise."
Some argue that wisdom is an something other than the book. However, when taking more verses into context we can deduce that wisdom here is part of the book. Therefore "WA" here is used as a marker for further clarification as you said.
However in verse 16:67, conflict will arise if you take "WA" to denote further explanation of intoxicants. Because in verse 2:219 it is clearly stated that its sin is greater than its benefit. For that reason, how can good provision be referring to intoxicants ?
Again, I also clearly explained the meanings of Khamr, pigeon-holing it as just 'wine' is an unwillingness to recognize the breadth of Classical Arabic words and their meanings. Taking all of the valid meanings of these verses I find that alcohol is not forbidden, drunkenness is. I find this to be more consistent with all that the Qur'an says on the subject and to be even more comprehensive given that the state of inebriation can be caused by substances other than alcohol.
Taking the meaning of "Khamr" as "drunkenness" causes incompatibility with the same verse 2:219. Because how can drunkenness have some benefits. It is more logical to take the meaning as wine.
Furthermore, it is clear from verse 12:41 that "khamran" means wine.
[12:41]
O two companions of prison, as for one of you, he will give drink to his master of wine; but as for the other, he will be crucified, and the birds will eat from his head. The matter has been decreed about which you both inquire."
Finally, the fact that the "state of inebriation can be caused by substances other than alcohol" in my humble opinion is not a valid reason to assign drunkenness to the word "Khamr" given the evidence above.
Peace.
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Ahmed,
However in verse 16:67, conflict will arise if you take "WA" to denote further explanation of intoxicants. Because in verse 2:219 it is clearly stated that its sin is greater than its benefit. For that reason, how can good provision be referring to intoxicants ?
Khamr's sin/harm is greater than its benefit. This does not apply to sakar. Please stop conflating their meaning as intoxicant.
Taking the meaning of "Khamr" as "drunkenness" causes incompatibility with the same verse 2:219. Because how can drunkenness have some benefits. It is more logical to take the meaning as wine.
Ask anyone who uses any substance that induces a drunken state what the benefit of drunkenness is and they will clearly tell you...absence of stress and relaxation of the mind. That is a clear benefit. But the harm of that state is greater than the benefit. Please do not argue with me about whether this is truly a benefit or not given
the means through which it was acquired.
Furthermore, it is clear from verse 12:41 that "khamran" means wine.
The Qur'an is not a dictionary and Classical Arabic words, even in the Qur'an, are not limited to one meaning. 12:36 shows how khamr in its context should be understood in its meaning of grapes. I never denied that khamr also means wine. Rather, I am informing you and others that it can also mean 'an inebriated state' based on the Classical Arabic grammar of the verb 'khamira' in its meaning of 'to be inebriated.' This fits the context of 5:90 much better, especially when taking into consideration 4:43 and 16:67.
With that said, I am not seeing the benefit of this back and forth being more than its harm. I hope it is because you do not clearly understand my point. For that reason I will clarify again. My point is to show you that given what the Quran says in totality, it is more logical to interpret khamr in 5:90 as drunkenness instead of wine, unlike what we have in 12:41 where wine is more appropriate. As I stated earlier at 12:36, which is just previous, khamr is most appropriately understood in its meaning of grapes.
For more clarity, I am not giving khamr any new meaning. Nor am I negating any of its established meanings. I am showing how being fair with the grammatical implications of the passages that mention khamr, sakar, and sukaraa (sukraan) is more logical to take khamr in its meaning of drunkenness at 5:90.
Additionally, I believe that this creates a wider prohibition on the abuse of intoxicants in general rather than using the traditional Islamic process of qiyaas to arrive at a contrived meaning for khamr as any general intoxicant, which is certainly NOT its meaning.
I hope you can see my points. If you just flatly disagree there is no need for further challenging. I want to avoid arguing points that I have not made, like when you insinuated that I am somehow saying that khamr CANNOT mean wine. A point that I never made.
If you have questions about my stances, claims or conclusions please ask them and I will expound as much as I can to make them clear if they are not clear to you. Then, you can then decide on your own what to make of my conclusions and what I have based them on.
Salam
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Salam,
I find it somewhat significant that khamr in 5:90 is described as an 3amal or an action, i.e. 'min 3amali-sh-shaytaan.' 2:25 also implies that the things that we will be given in paradise will be similar to the things that we have been given on earth. This means that the things that we will enjoy in paradise are lawful to have here on earth, however in paradise they will be purified and improved. I hope this is a cause for further reflection on my above points.
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Dear Anwar,
I hope you can see my points. If you just flatly disagree there is no need for further challenging. I want to avoid arguing points that I have not made, like when you insinuated that I am somehow saying that khamr CANNOT mean wine. A point that I never made.
Let me start by saying that I am not challenging you. I am merely having a conversation with the intent to arrive at the best meaning.
Furthermore, I know that you know that khamr can mean wine. I was talking about its meaning at the context I was referring to in 12:41.
Khamr's sin/harm is greater than its benefit. This does not apply to sakar. Please stop conflating their meaning as intoxicant.
Sakar in 16:67 can mean intoxicants. See "Lesan-al-arab". And I think its more logical to take the meaning as such.
Ask anyone who uses any substance that induces a drunken state what the benefit of drunkenness is and they will clearly tell you...absence of stress and relaxation of the mind. That is a clear benefit. But the harm of that state is greater than the benefit. Please do not argue with me about whether this is truly a benefit or not given
the means through which it was acquired.
This was a weak argument from my part.
This fits the context of 5:90 much better, especially when taking into consideration 4:43 and 16:67
In 4:43 the prohibition of praying while in a state of "sukara" does not mean that in 5:90 it means drunkenness. 5:90 can be still referring to wine.
And in 16:67 as I said earlier, I think that wine fits "sakaran" better. Because the verse says "you take". Drunkenness cannot be taken because its a state it is experienced.
Additionally, I believe that this creates a wider prohibition on the abuse of intoxicants in general rather than using the traditional Islamic process of qiyaas to arrive at a contrived meaning for khamr as any general intoxicant, which is certainly NOT its meaning
Whether it creates a wider prohibition or not should not be taken as a reason to interpret khamr as "drunkenness".
This means that the things that we will enjoy in paradise are lawful to have here on earth, however in paradise they will be purified and improved
I understand what you are saying. But I feel that this is an interpolation from your part. As paradise is different than earth.
For more clarity, I am not giving khamr any new meaning. Nor am I negating any of its established meanings. I am showing how being fair with the grammatical implications of the passages that mention khamr, sakar, and sukaraa (sukraan) is more logical to take khamr in its meaning of drunkenness at 5:90
Given what I said above I see no special reason to take the meaning of "khamr" as the less popular meaning of drunkenness. Also can you please provide me with a reference from where you got this meaning.
Peace.
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Sakar does not mean drunkennes. I never said that sakar means drunkenness in 16:67. It also does not mean intoxicant according to Lisanul-Arab either.
والسَّكَرُ الخمر نفسها.
والسَّكَرُ شراب يتخذ من التمر والكَشُوثِ والآسِ، وهو محرّم كتحريم الخمر.
وقال أَبو حنيفة: السَّكَرُ يتخذ من التمر والكُشُوث يطرحان سافاً سافاً ويصب عليه الماء. قال: وزعم زاعم أَنه ربما خلط به الآس فزاده شدّة.
وقال المفسرون في السَّكَرِ الذي في التنزيل: إِنه الخَلُّ وهذا شيء لا يعرفه أَهل اللغة. الفراء في قوله: تتخذون منه سَكَراً ورزقاً حسناً، قال: هو الخمر قبل أَن يحرم والرزق الحسن الزبيب والتمر وما أَشبهها.
وقال أَبو عبيد: السَّكَرُ نقيع التمر الذي لم تمسه النار، وكان إِبراهيم والشعبي وأَبو رزين يقولون: السَّكَرُ خَمْرٌ.
وروي عن ابن عمر أَنه قال: السَّكَرُ من التمر، وقال أَبو عبيدة وحده: السَّكَرُ الطعام؛ يقول الشاعر: جَعَلْتَ أَعْرَاضَ الكِرامِ سَكَرا أَي جعلتَ ذَمَّهم طُعْماً لك.
وقال الزجاج: هذا بالخمر أَشبه منه بالطعام؛ المعنى: جعلت تتخمر بأَعراض الكرام، وهو أَبين مما يقال للذي يَبْتَرِكُ في أَعراض الناس.
وروى الأَزهري عن ابن عباس في هذه الآية قال: السَّكَرُ ما حُرِّمَ من ثَمَرَتها، والرزق ما أُحِلَّ من ثمرتها. ابن الأَعرابي: السَّكَرُ الغَضَبُ؛ والسَّكَرُ الامتلاء، والسَّكَرُ الخمر، والسَّكَرُ النبيذ؛ وقال جرير: إِذا رَوِينَ على الخِنْزِيرِ مِن سَكَرٍ نادَيْنَ: يا أَعْظَمَ القِسِّينَ جُرْدَانَا وفي الحديث: حرمت الخمرُ بعينها والسَّكَرُ من كل شراب؛ السَّكَر، بفتح السين والكاف: الخمر المُعْتَصَرُ من العنب؛ قال ابن الأَثير: هكذا رواه الأَثبات، ومنهم من يرويه بضم السين وسكون الكاف، يريد حالة السَّكْرَانِ فيجعلون التحريم للسُّكْرِ لا لنفس المُسْكِرِ فيبيحون قليله الذي لا يسكر، والمشهور الأَول، وقيل: السكر، بالتحريك، الطعام؛ وأَنكر أَهل اللغة هذا والعرب لا تعرفه.
وفي حديث أَبي وائل: أَن رجلاً أَصابه الصَّقَرُ فَبُعِثَ له السَّكَرُ فقال: إِن الله لم يجعل شفاءكم فيما حرم عليكم.
If you search through the above you will see that sakar does not mean intoxicant. If you are using circular logic please don't. Sakar does not mean intoxicant because it is defined as khamr. Sakar means WINE because it is defined as intoxicant. When I see khamr mentioned with other roots i do not define those roots using the meaning of intoxication/inebriation because I know what is meant is the more popular meaning of wine.
The meaning for khamr as general drunkenness/inebriation comes from the following also in Lisanul-Arab:
ورجل مَخْمُورٌ: به خُمارٌ، وقد خُمِرَ خَمْراً وخَمِرَ
A man that is makhmoor is effected by Khumaar and he khamira khamran, i.e. has become effected by khumaar. Khamran is the indefinite, accusative (nakirah mansoobah) of Al-khamr. So here Al-khamr is 'to be effected by khumar.'
وخُمارُها: ما خالط من سكرها
khumar: What befalls of drunkenness/inebriation.
I still disagree with khamr as general intoxicants despite the fact that it seems that part of its etymological logic is from it covering one's mind. Here is why. Lisanul-Arab says:
والخَمْرُ ما خَمَر العَقْلَ، وهو المسكر من الشراب
Al-khamr is what covers the mind; it is drinkable inebriant. So at best we can call any drink that inebriates khamr...so marijuana tea or opium tea can be called khamr but not other intoxicants.
The best that Mu'jam Al-faadh Al-Qu'ran gives us is by saying "For some people it is a name for any intoxicant." When he says 'for some people' he is saying that this is not how the word is generally understood because this is not what he states whenever defining a word straight out. He actually doesn't define khamr in its capacity of wine or alcoholic drink at all. He assumes that everyone knows what it is and give its etymology.
Salam
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Sakar means WINE because it is defined as intoxicant.
Please take the above sentence and strike it. Sakar is defined as khamr in its capacity of wine. Wine being defined as what intoxicates from the juice of grapes, as well as from dates, honey or other substances. Sakar has some other meanings as well being food (possibly referring to sugar here), anger, fullness, and nabeedh, which is also another word for wine.
I hope with my previous post I proved the use of Al-Khamr as inebriaton/drunkeness/intoxication and that khamr does not many any intoxicant. This is what I set out to show you and then to posit that given that we are not to pray while drunk and that sakar, in its meaning of wine, can be good provision that intoxicants are not what is forbidden in the Qur'an but rather intoxication.
Salam
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Forgive my spelling mistakes and typos. I meant to say 'does not mean any' in that last post instead of 'does not many any.'
Salam
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Salam Anwar,
Here is quotation from lesan al arab.
والخَمْرُ ما خَمَر العَقْلَ، وهو المسكر من الشراب،
Here khamr can mean any substance that intoxicates the mind. So there is no need for "Qias" to include other substances other than wine.
So if we take this meaning of khamr as the above. Then both drunknesses and the substance itself are forbidden. Even if one can take the substance without being drunk.
Furthermore, i think that its hard to accept your interpretation of kamr being drunkenness on the basis of the availability of the above meaning. And the following verse:
[2:168]
O mankind, eat from whatever is on earth [that is] lawful and good and do not follow the footsteps of Satan. Indeed, he is to you a clear enemy.
If it is as you say, that drunkenness is what is forbidden not wine. Then you will be conflict with 2:168 as clearly drinking wine without getting drunk is taking a footstep towards what is forbidden.
Thoughts ?
peace.
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Ahmed,
Please translate the whole quotation. You conveniently omit وهو المسكر من الشراب
which I did not omit and included in my translation.
It translates as ", and it is drink that inebriates."
Furthermore, i think that its hard to accept your interpretation of kamr being drunkenness on the basis of the availability of the above meaning
Did I not quote for you the meaning of khamr as inebriation or khumaar? I specifically quoted it for you from lisanul-Arab as well. Please stop playing games.
Here it is a again
ورجل مَخْمُورٌ: به خُمارٌ، وقد خُمِرَ خَمْراً
"A man who is makhmur: He is drunk."
What follows 'khumaar' is 'qad khamira khamran.' This is the grammatical construction of how to say that the man became drunk. Khamran is the indefinite, accusative form of 'khamr' being used an adverb. When you see this construction it is making it clear that 'khamr' is the verbal noun of khamira. So khamira is 'he got drunk' and 'khamr' is 'getting drunk.' Do you understand now?
If it is as you say, that drunkenness is what is forbidden not wine. Then you will be conflict with 2:168 as clearly drinking wine without getting drunk is taking a footstep towards what is forbidden.
What? And how is that the case? How is 'Do not follow the footsteps of the evil one/the evil ones/Satan' mean taking a step towards what is forbidden? I really do not understand this logic.
1. Don't get inebriated and 2. if you happen to get inebriated, don't pray. 3. Don't lose your payer.
That's the message. Following Satan's footsteps would be drinking in amounts or in a way that will get you drunk, and this would be compounded it if is inhibiting your ability to pray.
Peace.
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Dear Anwar,
Please stop playing games
Since you labeled my sincere attempt to find the best meaning with you regarding this topic as "playing games". I see that there no reason for me to continue this discussion with you.
Consider this reply as my last on this thread.
I wish you the best in this life and the next.
Peace.
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Ahmed,
Thank you. I wish you the best in this life and the next as well.
Salam.
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Salaam Anwar,
Alcohol of ANY KIND is EXTREMELY forbidden!! After reading your comments, you are trying to justify how it can mean one thing and not the other, justifying it until you start actually believing it is the truth. If you want to drink, go for it, that is between The Creator and you.
But indicating it DOES NOT mean what it actually is spelled out clearly for us, Maybe you should focus on this verse... 17:36
http://quransmessage.com/articles/intoxication%20FM3.htm
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Abbs,
I think you just want to justify what you already believe. I have given you the reason and the linguistic proof for what I have said. If you already have your mind made up, it cannot do anything for you.
Salam.
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Salaam Anwar,
I do not have a need to Justify anything, My mind is absolutely made up because I would never dispute what is absolutely clear from my Creator. You believe what you want to and I will believe what I want to.
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AbbsRay,
I am not believing what I WANT to. It is not about me WANTING anything. What caused me to look into this was that it was not as clear as you say it is given the Qur'an's usage of sukaraa and sakar. If wine is forbidden outright by saying avoid khamr then what is the point of telling people not to pray when drunk or mentioning a more definitive word for alcoholic drink (sakar) and associating it with goodly provision? Hence, my research into the meanings of the word khamr. You have already seen, and disapproved of, my conclusions. You are correct that we all will come to our own conclusions in the end. And Allah will judge us on the day of judgement concerning how we differed.
Salaam.
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Salamu Alykum brother Anwar.
I think I understand what you are saying when you mentioned
" If wine is forbidden outright by saying avoid khamr then what is the point of telling people not to pray when drunk or mentioning a more definitive word for alcoholic drink (sakar) and associating it with goodly provision? "
I think maybe your right, there wouldn't really be a point to say stay away from prayer in verse 4:43 because its obvious its already forbidden, so in other words what you mean is it could be suggesting that just don't be drunk when you approach prayer but drink after or before. I mean I can see the argument there. But now you would have to make sense of all the other verses of the word KHAMR and in my opinion there will always be confusions and debates and to many meanings being twisted.
I think when taking the word KHAMR AND SUKARA to mean the same thing, I would agree with you, but then again it wouldn't make sense to me many other places in the Quran.
I think whats a good idea if we consult the verse 4:43
Yusuf Ali
O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say,- nor in a state of ceremonial impurity (Except when travelling on the road), until after washing your whole body. If ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands. For Allah doth blot out sins and forgive again and again.
The arabic word SUKARA in my opinion has very little to do with drinking physically. According to the verse above, the word SUKARA means a person not being his NORMAL SELF. This could be a angry person, a person who's confused, who's lost and has to much stress, thinking about life, business, money, relationships and not focused. And could also include being in a state of drunkenness. But not limited to that. I think what GOD is telling us is when we approach prayer be focused and leave the worldly views behind and understand what we are saying and asking before we start to pray.
Now KHAMR i believe does mean alcohol and intoxicants , or anything that is harmful and can cause damage or conceal the normal human being. Example, alcohol, drugs, intoxicants, natural or unnatural, we are told to stay away.
However from my opinion I try to take the best meaning from the Quran and to be honest with myself, and the Quran is consistent with its self. This is the only way I can see this topic make sense.
I based my opinion after reading brother Josephs article on intoxicants, which I found to be very helpful and well clarified with proof
http://quransmessage.com/pdfs/Intoxication.pdf
I hope this helps
Peace
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Peace,
The Quran tells us to seek help with patience and prayer 2:45. Why would it be a bad thing to pray when upset or angry? That is a good thing because the whole point of prayer is focusing one's mind on God and off of whatever worldly thing made you angry, sad or melancholic? Is it not the remembrance of God that the believers hearts find solace? 13:28
Moreover, sukaaraa is the plural of sukraan. It would be equal to makhaameer or makhmooroona, both of which are the plural of makhmoor. As it concerns khamr, just because khamr means drunkennes (As-sukrah) in one place, that does not mean that it has to mean that in all of the other places that it is mentioned. I mentioned above the many meanings that khamr has. Just like deen doesn't mean the same thing in every place in the Quran. The deen of maliki yawmi-d-deen is different from the deen in mukhliseena lahu deena in Suratul-Bayyinah, or the deen of the king of Egypt in 12:76 or the deen that will be returned to us on resurrection day in 24:25.
This occurs with many other words. Just because it means one thing in one place does not mean that it means that same thing in all places.
As far as what you believe khamr means, with all due respect it is not about what you believe. It is about the facts of the word. I have shown linguistically that it can only be referred to drinks that cause inebriation and not ALL intoxicants. Reading more into it is giving it a theological meaning or a fabricated meaning based on what you want it to mean.
All intoxicants can either be used in a dosage low enough to not cause inebriation or they can be used in cases of need. Alcoholic drinks, especially the wine of grapes and dates in particular are considered to be a good provision in the Quran. And they can be enjoyed in small doses so that we do not get inebriated. God tells us to stay away from inebriation and even gives us advice on what do when it is prayer time and we may be drunk. The Quran also tell us to that inebration is the work of the devil and is there to cause enmity between us and to keep us from prayer (seeing that God specifically says don't pray when drunk). So I don't know about you but this is pretty clear to me. Drink in small non-enebriating doses and if you happen to make a mistake and get drunk around prayer time don't pray, but don't let Satan sway you into getting inebriated so as to keep you from prayer and to cause strife between you and other believers.
Thanks for being open minded on this topic and willing to consider my points.
Salam.
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Salamun Alykum Anwar
Ramadan Mubarak
I agree with you that its not what I just think or believe about the Quran to be true without providing any supporting proof. When people are discussing topics about religion through a book they all claim to believe in from GOD then we are to go with the most honest and truthful opinion. we should be willing to change our beliefs of all aspects as time goes by with better and more convincing arguments.
I do understand what your saying. And I'm honestly trying to make sense out of it. At the end if thats what GOD has allowed no one has the right to change the proper meaning by manipulation. But what your saying with all due respect I find it hard to accept.
You are right its not a bad thing to be unset and angry, and I should of not used those examples. A better word would of been a "mind defogged". A mind that not able to focus on reality and prayer. A mind that can not be controlled or can cause someone to do something with out knowing. A mind that knows and understands all that is saying.
Now the part that doesn't make sense is, How can a person drink to a point where he can control how much he/she is drinking? Some drinks are stronger than others. They can be highly addictive. And some cannot be without it when it becomes a way of life. Sometimes a person ends up sleeping all day and all night. That means all the prayers have passed on. During the fasting month of Ramadan a person may of gotten drunk by mistake and it won't take much to get drunk by mistake and can cause a person to get sick and even eat when your not supposed to. All this because of something that started out to be lawful.
And who draws the line of when someone is drunk. How do you base or measure the point of someone being drunk. sometimes the lines between getting drunk or being sober is nothing more than half a cup. Some people might start praying and thinking there not drunk making a joke about it. And start laughing and being dissy and all that.
Would it not be more logical to say that if GOD is asking someone to stay away from being drunk or inebriation then to shun it or stay away from it from the first instance. not even to engage on the first sip.
Medication in cases of need is something that helps a person go from a unnatural state to a better more focused state. These medications cannot be classed as khamr. Those are different cases. I mean a believer in need of food and is hungry is able to eat the flesh of swine or whatever is forbidden in those case.
Even medication just because its lawful in the land may not be appropriate to GOD. Some may cause people to be addicted and never the same. And always dependant on it and when they go off the medication they end up using drugs. I think Khamr would be more properly defined as a substance that conceals the mind.
Also we should try to read these verses and imagine that we were at the time of the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) and his nation. Before the revelation came to them it could of been a normal situation where people were drinking alcohol and maybe consuming other substances that make the mind defogged. Like getting high as we say now or getting drunk. As we know the Quran was revealed to them in portions and not as a whole. Maybe it was verse 4:43 that came to them first. And they were asked not to approach prayer while they were in a state of inebriation. And then verse 5:90 was revealed to them that khamr was forbidden completely. And asked those who accepted the Quran and became believers to avoid it.
you stated in your first comment on this topic
"I find it somewhat significant that khamr in 5:90 is described as an 3amal or an action, i.e. 'min 3amali-sh-shaytaan.' 2:25 also implies that the things that we will be given in paradise will be similar to the things that we have been given on earth."
I think this verse is suggesting that the action of making any type of intoxicants is from the actions of the shaytaan. And the gambling.
Maybe GOD is even forbidding the making of these substances altogether. And even on a wider scale. If you look at the world we live in. There is much profit in the industries of alcohol or intoxicants and gambling. Yet this verse comes to mind
2:219
Yusuf Ali
They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: "What is beyond your needs." Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider-
Thats my opinion
Peace