QM Forum
The Quran => General Discussions => Topic started by: ZKAB90 on March 12, 2016, 08:39:44 PM
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Salam, Hi,
This is why, whith GREATS REGRETS, I believe that I'm hypocrit (munafiq) AND why follow quranism is bad. These are the reasons: :'( :-\
1/ http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/counter_rebuttal_to_a_rebuttal_to__questions_that_the_quranites_have_no_good_logical_responses_to
2/ http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/refuting_the_argument_that_there_are__absurd__hadith
3/ إِنَّ هَـؤُلاء مُتَبَّرٌ مَّا هُمْ فِيهِ وَبَاطِلٌ مَّا كَانُواْ يَعْمَلُونَ As to these folk,- the cult they are in is (but) a fragment of a ruin, and vain is the (worship) which they practice
4/ يُخَادِعُونَ اللّهَ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَمَا يَخْدَعُونَ إِلاَّ أَنفُسَهُم وَمَا يَشْعُرُونَ They would deceive ALLAH and those who believe, but they deceive none but themselves; only they perceive it not
→ I don’t believe in Angels, Jinns and I can’t realize the existence of Hell and Heaven even I suspect that all are true. Allah sealed my heart due to my ex-islamophobic behavior and arrogance. → ومن الناس من يقول امنا بالله وباليوم الاخر وما هم بمؤمنين And of the people are some who say, "We believe in Allah and the Last Day," but they are not believers.
5/ في قلوبهم مرض فزادهم الله مرضا ولهم عذاب اليم بما كانوا يكذبون In their hearts is disease, so Allah has increased their disease; and for them is a painful punishment because they [habitually] used to lie
6/ ان المنافقين يخادعون الله وهو خادعهم واذا قاموا الى الصلاة قاموا كسالى يراءون الناس ولا يذكرون الله الا قليلا Indeed, the hypocrites [think to] deceive Allah , but He is deceiving them. And when they stand for prayer, they stand lazily, showing [themselves to] the people and not remembering Allah except a little → I don’t pray. I don’t fell anything, and for me is boring.
7/ الا انهم في مرية من لقاء ربهم الا انه بكل شيء محيط Unquestionably, they are in doubt about the meeting with their Lord. Unquestionably He is, of all things, encompassing.
8/ واذا ذكر الله وحده اشمازت قلوب الذين لا يؤمنون بالاخرة واذا ذكر الذين من دونه اذا هم يستبشرون And when Allah is mentioned alone, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter shrink with aversion, but when those [worshipped] other than Him are mentioned, immediately they rejoice.
9/ واذا تتلى عليهم اياتنا بينات تعرف في وجوه الذين كفروا المنكر يكادون يسطون بالذين يتلون عليهم اياتنا قل افانبئكم بشر من ذلكم النار وعدها الله الذين كفروا وبئس المصير And when Our verses are recited to them as clear evidences, you recognize in the faces of those who disbelieve disapproval. They are almost on the verge of assaulting those who recite to them Our verses. Say, "Then shall I inform you of [what is] worse than that? [It is] the Fire which Allah has promised those who disbelieve, and wretched is the destination."
And finally, the greatest lie: http://www.free-minds.org/mumins
قالت الاعراب امنا قل لم تؤمنوا ولكن قولوا اسلمنا ولما يدخل الايمان في قلوبكم وان تطيعوا الله ورسوله لا يلتكم من اعمالكم شيئا ان الله غفور رحيم The bedouins say, "We have believed." Say, "You have not [yet] believed; but say [instead], 'We have submitted,' for faith has not yet entered your hearts. And if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not deprive you from your deeds of anything. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."
Surely, BUT in THIS LIFE, not in the Hereafter, if it exists.
Because:
ليس البر ان تولوا وجوهكم قبل المشرق والمغرب ولكن البر من امن بالله واليوم الاخر والملائكة والكتاب والنبيين واتى المال على حبه ذوي القربى واليتامى والمساكين وابن السبيل والسائلين وفي الرقاب واقام الصلاة واتى الزكاة والموفون بعهدهم اذا عاهدوا والصابرين في الباساء والضراء وحين الباس اولئك الذين صدقوا واولئك هم المتقون Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah , the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth, in spite of love for it, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for freeing slaves; [and who] establishes prayer and gives zakah; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise; and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle. Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous.
:'( :'( :'(
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OH MY GOD.
This is making me very sad. Dear ZKAB90, I think you're just very confused. We can fix this. I reviewed the links you sent and although I don't have the time to refute every single thing in them, I think I can refute the most common arguments.
First of all: Why do you think you're a hypocrite? Hypocrites are those who lie against God, or say one thing and act on another. I don't see how you fit this definition. Secondly, even if you ARE a hypocrite, the fact that you want to stop being one shows that you have hope. You are greatly exaggerating your own evilness.
This post is going to be ridiculously long, but if you can be patient we can remedy your highly baffling situation. I will begin by citing some arguments in the links you sent and refuting them. Then I will explain how it is possible to follow the Quran without hadiths.
1) Let's figure out what Joseph and most other people on this forum believe in. We're not Quranists. "Quranist" denotes people who believe the Quran is absolutely the ONLY thing one can derive guidance from. However, we are Quran-centric, which means that we also follow our common sense (and look in classical dictionaries) to find the best meaning of Quranic verses.
2) Zawadi (the author of the links you posted) has been attempting to refute Quran-centrism and Quranism for ages. He hasn't done so well. Let's look at some of his arguments. This is what he says--
"Why don't we have any record of early Muslims completely rejecting hadith?"
Who says that we NEED to have a record of early Muslims rejecting hadiths? Records of early Muslims rejecting hadiths would only be found in hadiths. And we don't believe that hadiths hold any religious authority. So this argument is paradoxical in itself.
3) He also says:
"How do you know how to pray using the Quran alone?"
For God's sake, this argument is positively ancient. Here are some of Joseph's articles regarding prayer sans hadiths:
http://quransmessage.com/articles/pray%20as%20we%20have%20taught%20you%20how%20to%20pray%20-%20using%20a%20verse%20to%20support%20a%20fixed%20form%20of%20prayer%20FM3.htm
http://quransmessage.com/articles/the%20five%20prayers%20from%20the%20quran%20FM3.htm
http://quransmessage.com/articles/quran%20salaat%20FM3.htm
4) Monsieur Zawadi isn't giving up yet. He says:
"It says in the Quran to shorten the prayer when you travel. How long do you have to travel in order to be eligible to have this privilege? How short do you cut the prayer?"
Those who are familiar with the Quran know that it instructs us to use our reasoning skills. Thus, the amount that we shorten the prayer must be specific to the type of travel that we are undertaking. If a person is in grave danger, then their prayer should probably be shortened a lot. But if they're not in danger, then their prayer shouldn't be shortened too much. If God assigned a fixed amount of prayer-shortening, then people who are in great danger would be forced to pray a fixed number of rakahs, which would be counter productive. Prayer-shortening is designed for flexibility.
Also see:
http://quransmessage.com/articles/shortening%20of%20prayers%20FM3.htm
5) "The Quran says that men can beat their wives. But we know according to the hadith that this is meant to be a light beating that inflicts a spiritual punishment and not a harmful physical one. What is to stop a man from misinterpreting the Quran and beating his wife severely?"
Quran verse 4:34 has many possible meanings. They include hitting the wife, sending her out of the house, separating from her, indicating her behavior to the authorities, etc. Those who are familiar with the Quran know that it provides its own exegesis. The "correct" meaning of this verse can only be derived by someone who is sincere, well-versed in God's commandments, and just. Only an insincere, hypocritical man would insist that this verse allows him to inflict harm on his wife. (The Quran is specifically designed to expose such hypocritical people, by the way.) A good, sincere person would seek out alternative meanings for the verse and find the right meaning through research and reflection.
We can find the best meaning for verse 4:34 by analyzing other Quranic verses. We don't need hadiths for this.
Please see:
http://www.quran434.com/
http://www.quranverse434.com/
As you can see, most of Zawadi’s arguments against following God’s guidance are quite easily refutable. The Quran instructs mankind to judge by what God has revealed. God told us to obey His messenger, and the only duty of His messenger was to deliver His message. Please see:
http://quransmessage.com/articles/god%20has%20warned%20believers%20to%20only%20follow%20the%20quran%20FM3.htm
http://www.quran-islam.org/articles/a_dozen_reasons_(P1153).html
We are definitely supposed to follow God’s messenger, but God’s messenger only preached the Quran—and he wasn’t allowed to preach anything else. If he had, God would have punished him severely:
69:43
(The Quran is) a revelation from the Lord of the worlds.
69:44
And had he (Muhammad) attributed anything falsely to Us,
69:45
We would have seized him by the right.
69:46
Then, We would have severed his life-line.
69:47
None of you would be able to prevent it.
69:48
And this is a reminder for the righteous.
So, how do we find the “best meaning” of Quranic verses by using the Quran’s own exegesis and our own common sense?
Quran 3:7 tells us how to do this—
“It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others ambiguous. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is ambiguous, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah. But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.”
As you can see, this verse basically instructs “those with knowledge” to follow the Quran, the whole Quran. Verses that are ambiguous or implicit are explained by other, explicit verses. Take Quran 4:34, for example. It can be interpreted in many ways, but only one or two ways are acceptable when verse 4:19 is taken into account. 4:19 teaches believers to treat women with respect. This negates the idea that verse 4:34 instructs believers to use physical violence on women. Thus, another interpretation must be sought.
Hadiths complicate things. Some people *cough* Zawadi *cough* seem to believe that hadiths can abrogate the Quran. For example, the Quran clearly lays out the punishment for adultery: 100 lashes, publicly given. However, hadiths say that the punishment for adultery is stoning to death! This has led to some serious insanity in countries such as Iran (and, yes, this barbaric “punishment” has really been carried out there).
Do you get what I’m saying now?
The degree of corruption that has gripped the so-called Islamic world is genuinely alarming. The fact that so many people hold hadiths as religious authority is definitely part of the reason for this. “Honor killings” and extremism can all be traced to hadiths that portray Muhammad doing horrific things. How can such evil acts be attributed to a prophet? Clearly, something is wrong.
Please think about this and God bless.
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Salam ZKAB90,
I just wanted to let you know that you are not the only one who feels like a hypocrite.Most times,I am convinced that my heart has been sealed.When I read answers to questions on this forum,it worries me that when I read the Quran,I don't understand it the way everyone seems to understand it.
When I wake up lazily to pray fajr,I wonder if I truly believe.I ask myself,If I truly believe in this Almighty,Powerful God,why don't I revere him constantly as others do?why doesn't my heart tremble when the Quran is recited?why don't I feel a connection when I pray?I also worry that what I think is right might just seem right to me because I am blind to the truth.
I am sorry that my long post doesn't have any answers for you.I just thought you might appreciate knowing you are not the only one who feels this way.
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Assalamu alaikum brothers and sisters,
ZKAB90 and zara, guys don't go too hard on yourselves. Like Mia said, being depressed, feeling guilty about it, actually tells me that deep inside, you are trying to fight these painful thoughts and this means you are not lost ! Shaitan tries to block "the right path" and wants to show us all that it's twisted, crooked. I think you are under a bombardment of ""waswasa", obsessive thoughts. Don't ever give up, Allah knows you better than yourselves. Don't ever give up on praying Allah for help. Believe me we all have times like this, doubting ourselves and shaitan takes advantage of this. He says: "You are hopeless, you are going to hell anyway, you are in doubt, you don't believe enough!, look at that guy over there he/she is a real muslim you are not !" If you are disturbed by these thoughts then it's not late inshaAllah.
Sorry i haven't answered your questions but i want you to know that you are not hopeless. We will get over this together inshaAllah.
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Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah , the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth, in spite of love for it, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for freeing slaves; [and who] establishes prayer and gives zakah; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise; and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle. Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous. (http://quran.com/2/177)
→ I don’t believe in Angels, Jinns and I can’t realize the existence of Hell and Heaven even I suspect that all are true. Allah sealed my heart due to my ex-islamophobic behavior and arrogance.
And of the people are some who say, "We believe in Allah and the Last Day," but they are not believers (http://quran.com/2/8)
→ I can't lie to myself; nor I'm able to deceit myself.
There's no hope I think... >:( :( :-\
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Peace All.
Do we think we can just say we believe without being tested for our conviction?
All of us have to go through the test when we embark on the system of GOD Alone.
Who knows how long we can remain being tested before we attain certainty. Yes ,GOD promised those who pass His test that they will be certain about Him and His message. There will be no doubt whatsoever.
[Qoran 28:56] You cannot guide the ones you love. God is the only One who guides in accordance with His will, and in accordance with His knowledge of those who deserve the guidance.
[Qoran 6:75] We showed Abraham the marvels of the heavens and the earth, and blessed him with certainty:
[Qoran 21:51] Before that, we granted Abraham his guidance and understanding, for we were fully aware of him.
[Qoran 21:79] We granted Solomon the correct understanding, though we endowed both of them (David as well) with wisdom and knowledge. We committed the mountains to serve David in glorifying (God), as well as the birds. This is what we did.
None of us here will help to guide one another, nor shall we even pretend. We are all serving the same purpose in this life.GOD knows every individual inside out.
Trust in GOD Alone, keep persevering, stay the journey ,long or short. GOD will not brake His promise. Those who stay loyal to GOD Alone, whatever happens to them during the journey, will attain certainty.
We go through different stages of faith - from belief to "Muslim" to strong belief and certainty. GOD acknowledges our weakness, indecisiveness and doubt, and He promises those who choose Him and stay loyal to Him, to support them and augment their faith:
[Qoran 90:4] We created the human being to work hard (to redeem himself).*
[Qoran 7:174] We thus explain the revelations, to enable the people to redeem themselves
[Qoran 49:15] Mu mineen (believers) are those who believe in God and His messenger, then attain the status of having no doubt whatsoever, and strive with their money and their lives in the cause of God. These are the truthful ones
If we believe Qoran is the word of GOD,then we must ignore those who "doubt" .Are their words better/ make more sense/... than GOD s?
Why should we doubt GOD?:
[Qoran 30:60] Therefore, you shall steadfastly persevere - for God's promise is the truth - and do not be intimidated by those who have not attained certainty.
GOD bless.
Peace.
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Salaam all,
not to divert the serious issue at hand here which I greatly look forward to brother Joseph Islam's answer, but I would like to share something with sister MiaStar (and all who may be interested).
MiaStar, you said:
Zawadi.... says--
"Why don't we have any record of early Muslims completely rejecting hadith?"
Who says that we NEED to have a record of early Muslims rejecting hadiths? Records of early Muslims rejecting hadiths would only be found in hadiths. And we don't believe that hadiths hold any religious authority. So this argument is paradoxical in itself.
While I agree with your rebuttal to Zawadi question, I would like to share with you some writing which show that there were, indeed, records of early Muslims objecting to the Hadith. Perhaps Zawadi would be interested in them as well?:
THE OPPONENTS OF THE WRITING OF TRADITION IN EARLY ISLAM
http://www.hadith-studies.com/opponents-tradition-cook.pdf
http://meine-islam-reform.de/index.php/component/attachments/download/119.html
http://www18.georgetown.edu/data/people/brownj2/publication-51827.pdf
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Assalamu alaikum everyone,
First of all, I'm sorry I haven't been so active lately, I've been going through some hardships lately and it's been impossible.
Second of all, I personally find it a bit difficult to find the proper words to heal a heart that feels like this.
As for start, repeat after me: You are NOT a hypocrite, and your heart has NOT been sealed.
What is going on is that the truth is one, but there are many false versions of it. The islam is one, but many pseudoversions of it roam the world, and in search for the truth we may encounter some of them, which end up confusing us and planting doubts on whether or not we are in the true path. Most of believers have gone through what you are going through, believe me on this one :) having doubts doesn't make you a hypocrite. The munafiqun refered to in the Quran are the ones that pretend to be devouted muslims in front of people, but in their heart is disbelief and hate towards it. You are speaking with an open heart about what condition is your heart in, without pretending you're a devouted muslim. How can you deem yourself a hypocrite?
As to the seal of hearts, only God knows when this state is reached. I quote from brother Joseph: "So therefore, a 'seal' or 'covering' is imposed as a consequence of a transgressor's unwillingness to acknowledge the truth and to remain blind to it because of their own volition. This is in perfect resonance with cause and affect which God has imposed on his creation." Doesn't sound like your case at all (not to me at least).
And finally, I think you should consider something else as well: Our avowed enemy, Satan. A thief targets the rich properties :) Similarily, the closer we are to the truth, the closer we are to our Lord's mercy, the more we are targeted from him. He has sworn to God that he will lead us astray and take us to his side, and he won't rest until he feels he took you on his side.
"He said: "Because you have thrown me out of the way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on thy straight way"(7:16)
"The Evil one threatens you with poverty and bids you to conduct unseemly. God promises you His forgiveness and bounties. And God cares for all and He knows all things"(2:268)
His methods of attack and the areas where he attacks are in all kinds and forms, and what is worse is that he instills us fear and doubts which lead us to sin, and then after we sinned he instills us loss of hope in God's mercy and forgiveness. Don't let this happen to you :)
"No authority has he over those who believe and put their trust in their Lord"(016.099)
"As for My servants, no authority shall you have over them:" Enough is thy Lord for a Disposer of affairs"(017:065)
"Except Thy Servants amongst them, sincere and purified (by Thy Grace)."(038.083)
See? We are not left forsaken in his hands :) and even if we fall in his trap and sin, we still have hope: "Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah . Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful."(39:53)
So, read and study the Quran, keep on praying even if you feel like you're not feeling it, and keep on calling on your Lord, for He is closer than you think: "And when My servants ask you concerning Me, then surely I am very near; I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he calls on Me, so they should answer My call and believe in Me that they may walk in the right way."(2:186). "And We have already created man and know what his soul whispers to him, and We are closer to him than [his] jugular vein"(50:16).
God knows what goes on inside you, and if you don't give up on Him, He won't give up on you either :)
Peace be with you :)
Satan's guile:
http://quransmessage.com/articles/satans%20guile%20FM3.htm
Understanding kufr - when is a heart sealed?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/understanding%20kufr%20FM3.htm
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Salam ZKAB90, I'm sorry, I didn't entirely read through everything in your initial post. I saw the links and thought they must be confusing you, so I decided to go through them and refute everything. I think there's a bigger issue here and you need to understand that you're certainly not a hypocrite. I don't see how you fit that definition. From what I can tell, you're just not sure why you can't fully believe in anything God-related. This problem does not constitute hypocrisy. You actually seem to be genuinely searching for the truth and this is something to be admired. :) Just keep praying and God will help you. :)
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Salaam ZKAB90
I think that you have to undo all that you have learnt in the past.
You said:
I don’t believe in Angels, Jinns and I can’t realize the existence of Hell and Heaven even I suspect that all are true. Allah sealed my heart due to my ex-islamophobic behavior and arrogance.
So look at everything fresh in order to relearn and read the Quran cover to cover.
Then and only then should you think about why you don't believe in angels etc
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Salaam ZKAB90
I think that you have to undo all that you have learnt in the past.
You said:
I don’t believe in Angels, Jinns and I can’t realize the existence of Hell and Heaven even I suspect that all are true. Allah sealed my heart due to my ex-islamophobic behavior and arrogance.
So look at everything fresh in order to relearn and read the Quran cover to cover.
Then and only then should you think about why you don't believe in angels etc
WHY ? That's the question....
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Salaam ZKAB90,
If you believe that the Quran is fully the word of God after reading and pondering it, then you will believe in the existence of angels, jinns, heaven and hell. These are fundamentals of faith.
An entirely different matter is that even committed Muslims err in their actions or failure to follow God's commands, which means that they have wronged themselves. But the most important aspect is that they acknowledge it, and attempt to rectify the matter going forward.
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Salaam ZKAB90,
If you believe that the Quran is fully the word of God after reading and pondering it, then you will believe in the existence of angels, jinns, heaven and hell. These are fundamentals of faith.
I think my brain or will is under satanic control; we have everyone a jinn in us and an human soul, isn't?
So, in this moment is my jinn who rules.
Although I'm a very pride person and raised in strong atheism... Maybe my brain isn't able yet to have access to the hidden human capacities...
In past I was very arrogant against Al-lah and Muhammad, I remember insulting both and mock them...
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And to Allah belong the best names, so invoke Him by them. And leave [the company of] those who practice deviation concerning His names. They will be recompensed for what they have been doing
http://quran.com/7/180
So, maybe my weakness is a punishment?
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Salam ZKAB90,
The information you stated about jinn in people's souls is from a hadith. It's probably not true, so no need to worry :)
Just because you insulted Allah once, that doesn't mean you're beyond hope. You're obviously feeling sorry for what you did, so just make sincere repentance. Verse 7:180 is only talking about those who mock God and don't repent. As Seraphina stated earlier, God forgives all sins.
"Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah . Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful."(39:53)
If you're having trouble believing in angels and such things, keep in mind that God created the universe. The universe itself is quite fascinating and unbelievable. But God, clearly, managed to create it--and He can create whatever He wants to. If He wants to create angels and jinn, then He can make them.
You said you were raised an atheist. That's probably part of the issue. I'm just wondering, how did you find out about the Quran and all this?
I hope you figure this out soon :)
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Peace Mia .
You said,quote:
The information you stated about jinn in people's souls is from a hadith. It's probably not true, so no need to worry :)
I wonder what these verses mean?:
50:27
قالَ قَرينُهُ رَبَّنا ما أَطغَيتُهُ وَلٰكِن كانَ فى ضَلٰلٍ بَعيدٍ
50:28
قالَ لا تَختَصِموا لَدَىَّ وَقَد قَدَّمتُ إِلَيكُم بِالوَعيدِ
Just curious.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Salam ZKAB90,
The information you stated about jinn in people's souls is from a hadith. It's probably not true, so no need to worry :)
Just because you insulted Allah once, that doesn't mean you're beyond hope. You're obviously feeling sorry for what you did, so just make sincere repentance. Verse 7:180 is only talking about those who mock God and don't repent. As Seraphina stated earlier, God forgives all sins.
"Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah . Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful."(39:53)
If you're having trouble believing in angels and such things, keep in mind that God created the universe. The universe itself is quite fascinating and unbelievable. But God, clearly, managed to create it--and He can create whatever He wants to. If He wants to create angels and jinn, then He can make them.
You said you were raised an atheist. That's probably part of the issue. I'm just wondering, how did you find out about the Quran and all this?
I hope you figure this out soon :)
Aleikum salam Mariyah;
Well, atheism is a paradoxal phenomenon at my experience because:
a/ is atheism which keep me away from all the religious claims but
b/ when I hear about scientific miracles in the Qu'ran I quickly interested into. No one had really really really impressed me but numerological ones surely they have. Look here: http://www.harunyahya.com/tr/works/47517/Miracles-Of-The-Quran---volume-3/chapter/14369/Mathematical-miracles-of-the-Qur%E2%80%99an-Part-1
to the ratio of the sea to the land and Unlocking the Quran code by Elardi Bouqtib, a follower of Rashad Khalifa http://realquran.net/resources/unlocking-the-quran-code/46-unlocking-the-quran-codebyelarbi-bouqdib
So, Islam (the real one, no the Hadiths-shaped, although without Hadiths we don't know how Muhammad lived) is the true religion because:
a/ is an atheist one religion --> it destroy all the illusions, the false gods, the capitalist celebrities which TV and fashion want to believe in;
b/ and at the same time it is a no-atheist religion one because it teach us into the real God.
Nevertheless, and despite all this philosophical stuff, I feel trapped into the primary atheist belief, I can't reach yet the next step, the magical-world (angels, jinns, etc) which exist in a different dimension (it can be at the same time in the our dimension, like a parallele on).
Allah guide who He want....
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Well i dont understand the hadis rejecters that they claim it has no authority on religion. I wonder how they approach bible, torah and gospels. Are they have any value on religion of people of book? I am not a hadis supporter completely or advocater of this group but it seems to me in this forum the approach to see hadis useless is a double standart when it comes to value bible torah and gospels.
First of all they are also written a hundres years later of their source like hadis.
Second they are mainly the views of believers who are not the direct addresseee of the message its throught the lens of scholars or students of that religion. Same holds for hadis.
Third As God doesnt promise to protect Hadis He also doesnt promise to protect the message of Bible torah and gospels in fact they are third persons's views like hadis.
Even hadis and canonical bible and torah have the same defections God doesnt void them null or value them as useless because of their natural defects in fact God still want people of book to follow them. Is not it a dilemma? That we people are more strict than God regarding valuing the old sources? We are easly sharing a script from bible and torah in our facebook to give our followers an insight of reality when it comes to a share a hadis which also gives an enlightment we avoid because of the fear we may be labeled as hadis supporter. Hadis has goods and bads as bible and torah had. So completely ignoring hadis and saying it has no value on our religion is like completely ignoring bible and torah which were present at the time of prophet in which quran asks people of book to follow them.
I would ask any follower of Prophet with sincerity would not you like to at least learn how prophet interpreted quran like you wonder how this of scholars of our time interpreted? Yes there may be some wrong ideas in it but would you be pleased to follow to query to know the value of such historical records with caution ofcourse. Instead we quran centric people want to completely get rid of hadis collections as if they are shamefull side of Islam history. No we can choose the middle way not complete rejection or complete acceptence but we can find some insights in them. But no one has a right to behave them as garbage. It was their best efforts it was their struggle. What Mark, Mathew, Luke, Paul, John did in bible thats why now we have a book called bible its same that hadis scholars did we must congratulate them but not to surrender to them ofcourse.
Also quran hiddenly force us to know about old books because sometimes to make complete understanding of a story you need to know the bible or torah whether they are corrupted and man made!(written by men apart from messengers).
So to kick hadis collection and treating it like a step child is not the middle way i guess and also to know our complete rejection of hadis creates enmity between many brothers who are also muslims so if at least we can take a step and say yes we value hadis collection as historical records of islam community and we accept ones which goes side by side quran but for the parts which contradicts with quran we take our guards i think then at least the density of enmity will decrease.
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Shalom / peace relearning ...
....Where the Qur'an is the 'guardian' / protector over the Bible ... The Qur'an came after the Bible ...so it can tell us what is right and wrong from it ... What is a protector over the Hadith collection ????? Is there a scripture after the hadith collection that can tell us what is right and wrong from it??????
So its not the same thing .... The Qur'an protects over the message of the Bible and confirms many things from it ... Is there such a thing from Allah doing the same with the Bible?
059:023
“He is God, than whom there is no other God, the Sovereign Lord, the Holy One, Peace, the Keeper of Faith, the Guardian/Determining what is true and false (Arabic: l-muhayminu), the Majestic, the Compeller, the Superb. Glorified be God from all that they ascribe as partner (to Him)”
005:015
"O People of the Book, surely there has come to you our Messenger, making clear to you much of what you used to conceal (Arabic: tukh'funa) of the scripture and overlooking / forgiving much (Arabic: wa-ya'fu an kathiran). Surely has come to you from God a light and a clear book"
http://quransmessage.com/articles/between%20hands%20or%20before%20it%20FM3.htm
Hope you can see the difference ...>>>
Also to say that Quran-centric people reject all Hadith as false or get rid of all of them is not right...you may have misunderstood the approach ..... I know this is something that brother Joseph doesn't believe in either ....>>>> AUTHORITY in religion is only witth Qur'an .. Quran-centric can engage with the Hadith - why not?
Also here is something ....brother Joseph defending past scholars!!!
http://quransmessage.com/articles/unwarranted%20prejudice%20FM3.htm
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Dear Duster protector of what the book bible? it was written many years later than Jesus. Whay you say for discerning about right and wrong in bible same holds for hadis quran can be discern for hadis its the same kind of protection actually. We dont see a physical bible or torah to be protected actually. And i think qurans teachings shares more belief than it shares with bible or torah. But learning that you and some people here do not mainly reject hadis is good. But when it comes to actions i dont see it for example i saw brothers share englightmens from bible reciting Jesus but not saw (maybe it was my experience) any of them using a hadis which shares a common value with quran. Although both have the same flaws of being written closely hundred years later by third observers.
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Peace relearning.
GOD is consistent. Only His" words " must be the authority on which the deen can be followed.
I do not see anywhere in Qoran where GOD is telling anyone to follow the "bible" .
Please produce the verses and we will happily discuss what they really say.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Shalom / peace goodlogic ...
What does the following verse 'REALLY' say then please????>>>>
028.049
"Say (to them, O Muhammad): Then bring a Book from the presence of God which is a BETTER GUIDE (ahda) than BOTH OF THEM (minhuma) that I may follow it (attabi'hu) if you are truthful (sadiqeen)"
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Peace Duster.
The two books are :
1- What was sent to Moses from GOD.
2- What was sent to Mohammed from GOD.
GOD is talking about "His words" ,what He sent down.
Look at the confirmation from the previous verse:
28:48
فَلَمّا جاءَهُمُ الحَقُّ مِن عِندِنا قالوا لَولا أوتِىَ مِثلَ ما أوتِىَ موسىٰ أَوَلَم يَكفُروا بِما أوتِىَ موسىٰ مِن قَبلُ قالوا سِحرانِ تَظٰهَرا وَقالوا إِنّا بِكُلٍّ كٰفِرونَ
The key words are "Min indina" Qoran from GOD and "Outia moussa!What Moses was given from GOD
The bible is not mentioned there!!! It contains both GOD s words and men s words!!! GOD is certainly not talking about the "bible".
GOD bless you .
Peace.
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Shalom / peace Goodlogic - What do you mean the Bible isn't mentioned there???? The Bible contains many Books and words. So what book of Moses were the people around prophet Muhammad's time reading that the Qur'an mentions many times?? Were the Jews of Arabia reading a totally different Book of Moses to the Jews around the world??????>>>>
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Peace Duster.
You know the verse is talking about what Moses received.
Are you saying Moses received the bible?
Therefore that verse you quoted is certainly not talking about the bible.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Shalom / peace Goodlogic....you don't need to overcomplicate this. The word 'Bible' wasn't invented at the time of prophet Muhammad.....Today's Bible is a collection of books..... It has the OT and NT. The OT has the Books / laws of Moses in them....The first five books of the OT for example....these 5 books were being read by the Jews even before Islam spread in Arabia ......>>>>>So the verse talks about what was given to Moses was present with the Jews of Arabia ...If the OT existed before prophet Muhammad, then the Jews of Arabia must of known about the OT....So is today's OT which has the laws of Moses in them that different from the OT at the time of Prophet Muhammad??? Compare it ... We have access to OTs before Prophet Muhammad's time!!!
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Dear brother good logic :
Peace relearning.
GOD is consistent. Only His" words " must be the authority on which the deen can be followed.
I do not see anywhere in Qoran where GOD is telling anyone to follow the "bible" .
Please produce the verses and we will happily discuss what they really say.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
005.068
"Say: "O People of the Book! you have no ground to stand upon unless you firmly stand by (Arabic: Tuqimu) the Torah, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that comes to you from thy Lord, that increases in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But do not grieve over disbelieving people"
005.043
But why do they come to you for decision, when they have (their own) Torah before them? therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not People of Faith.
005.046
"And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Torah that had come before him (Arabic: Bayna yadayhi) : We sent him the Gospel: in it was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Torah that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear God."
005.047
"Let the people of the Gospel judge by what God has revealed in it. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God has revealed, they are those who rebel (Arabic: Fasiquna)."
these ayats are the grounds of my claim that God even though stated people of book altered books (which they have in their hands at the time of Prophet Muhammad peace be upon to him) still insists them to follow.
these are excerpts from the article of brohter Joseph the link is: http://quransmessage.com/articles/people%20of%20the%20book%20FM3.htm
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Peace Duster.
GOD is clear in all those verses ,. Each of the verse or context highlights "What GOD has revealed" . So GOD is consistent in all His scripture . To follow only what GOD has revealed. i.e The words of GOD.
If you are saying to me the "bible" we have contains only the words of GOD, then I disagree with you. The same with the books that existed when Mohammed was sent. they had GOD s words and men s words in them. GOD is saying to them "Follow His words only"!
Peace relearning;
5:68 has added " and all the revelations that come to you from your Lord"- Only GOD s words-.
5:43,...46
GOD is again confirming "The Torah that had come before Jesus" and "We sent him the Gospel" ...Both GOD s words only.
5:47 makes it clear- Judge by what GOD has revealed" GOD s words only.
Hope you can see GOD s consistency clearer now.
GOD knows human and jinn devils will write their own words and claim it is from GOD!!!!
So when it comes to the "bible" we take what Qoran confirms ( GOD s words) and we reject the rest. Same as what was asked from people of the book at the time of Mohammed.
Thank you both.
GOD bless.
Peace.
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Shalom / peace Goodlogic ...
You first said this ......>>>>
I do not see anywhere in Qoran where GOD is telling anyone to follow the "bible" .
When it was pointed out to you that there are plenty of verses where Allah has said the previous scriptures contain guidance and that we know what the Bible (OT) the Jews had probably looked like at the time of Prophet Muhammad as we have earlier OT Bibles ....>>>you then change to the following straw man argument ....
If you are saying to me the "bible" we have contains only the words of GOD, then I disagree with you. The same with the books that existed when Mohammed was sent. they had GOD s words and men s words in them. GOD is saying to them "Follow His words only"!
I never said that the BIble today only contains the words of God ...... Thats why the Qur'an was also sent to show what is right and wrong from what the previous followers of scripture were reading .......The articles shared make all that clear .........
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HI Duster,
Just quoting what I wrote on another thread tonight...
The sensitivities of Muslims to the Bible and CHristians to the Quran are simply traditions long after even the Hadith. The quran itself has no issues with the Bible, in fact encourages the approach . (Surah 10:94).
It seems like a part of your confusion and turmoil is how the Quran relates to the Bible. I hope the above clarifies. God's word is in unity with other... not fighting within itself.
One thing I do believe is central...... God is a God of love and compassion. Gods nature is unchanging. Pray "God, help me in this phase in my life" and I believe He will! You need to get beyond just working things out with your mind. God looks at the heart. Believe He will allow you to experience peace!
Wasalam
Zack
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Peace Duster.
I already knew the bible contains both GOD s words and men s words.I never disagreed with that.
My point was the verses are asking the people of the book to follow "What GOD has revealed",only the word of GOD
.I was pointing out that what existed at the time of Mohammed also contained both the words of GOD and the words of men.
When GOD renews His message the emphasis has always been "Follow GOD Alone", His words are the only authority . Do not follow men s words. The guidance comes from "what GOD has revealed".
So here is my post again:
GOD is consistent. Only His" words " must be the authority on which the deen can be followed.
I do not see anywhere in Qoran where GOD is telling anyone to follow the "bible" .
Please produce the verses and we will happily discuss what they really say.
You then answered me wanting a clarification!
Therefore I do not see why you disagreed with my post?
The verses you mention agree with my statement.
GOD bless you.
Peace.