QM Forum
The Quran => General Discussions => Topic started by: yahya on August 08, 2016, 02:15:07 PM
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Assalam alikum i was just wondering why are women mentioned separate in 49:11 because when it says people I thought that would include men and women and even if it did mean men then why are men and women mentioned separately jazzakkallah
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salam.
interesting question. anyone has an idea ?
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Salam everyone
U know sometimes at a party, when we are about to give a speech in English we greet by saying ' Goodmorning / Goodevening everyone' then in the next sentence we say welcome ladies and gentlemen. Now, we already did greet all males and females when we said ' goodmorning everyone' but still we said ladies and gentlemen next but does it mean there is a reason behind this? Not really, it is just a manner of speaking or style of speaking. Every language is beautiful and different, and in every language we have a lot of options for saying the same thing in a different way. I believe here God is just using one of those styles.
We also use the word humans, when we want to talk about our species, but someone might like to make use of the term ' homo sapiens' which mean essentially the same thing.
There are also verses where Allah says that believers should not marry unbelievers and again somewhere else He explains this in detail:
Do not marry (you men) the ‘mushrikaat’ until they believe; for even a believing slave woman is better than a ‘mushrika’, even if you like her. And do not marry (you women) the ‘mushrikeen’ until they believe. A believing slave man is better than a mushrik, even if you like him. These invite to the fire, while God invites to Paradise and forgiveness, with His permission, and He clarifies His revelations for the people, that they may remember" 2:221
God has already made use of 'believers' but He chose to expand it by mentioning both genders as well, it can be seen as a way of just clarifying a concept in a more detailed way.
Also the particular verse u r talking about is reffering to disagreements between beleivers and how beleivers can be mean to each other and insult each other when they have a difference in opinion about something. God tells us in the previous verses of the same surah that beleivers will have differences of opinion but we are brothers to each other, by which He means we should be kind and forgiving to each other just like the way we are quick to forgive our family members. So, when God said 'believers' are brothers in the previous verses, He expanded the concept to include both males and females in this verse, saying both males and females should be forgiving and merciful and respectful to fellow believers be they male or female. God is warning us against calling each other names and basically telling us not to be bullies.
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Alhamdulillah. Nice comment thanks :)
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So why are women mentioned separate from people why not people then men then women why people and women why are women specific in this verse and why does it say women against women then women against men and women and vice aversa
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Salam yahya
Because the issue of disagreements between men has been adrressed in the previous verses in the same sura when Allah was saying that if the Prophet were to listen to all of the believers' whims, then the belivers would have been in trouble but Allah has made the love of faith stronger and dearer to the true believers than their ego and their need to win arguments. Allah has asked the Prophet to take just decisions and side with the beleivers who are more just in a disagreement between two parties of believers.
In the surah it is being alluded that just because they are believers, no one will be favored, the Prophet is asked to fight the oppressor party among the two till justice is served. When the issue of disagreements between two believers arise, Allah is letting us know He wants the Prophet to be on the side of the righteous person.
We often forget that the Prophet was often asked to mediate between two or multiple feuding parties. To define the role of the Prophet during such conflict between believers and also to inform/assure the believers that the Prophet has been instructed to be fair and just no matter who is the person feuding. This is very important because maybe some people's hearts thought that Prophet will favor those believers who were personally closer to him or more socially powerful and rich believers will be favored in conflicts. But God leaves no scope for such a doubt in belivers' minds when He says that being a believer does not automatically grant u Allah's and the Prophet's favor, if u r justified and u r the one who is correct and just, the Prophet will side with u.
Then Allah moves on to say what kind of a relationship He expects believers to have. He expects believers to behave like brothers ( merciful, forgiving and kind) to each other despite having differences among themselves. God then clarifies that women as well should be just and not oppress, during those times most women were not involved in the structuring of a society i.e the judiciary etc. Women were in charge of household matters but everyone knows that petty politics and fights also occur between women in those surroundings, some women domestically abuse other women, they call each other names etc. So God was asking all people be they men or women to be just and not oppress each other.
The following verses then say that if believers continue to backbite and slander and be mean to each other, why do they do such things? Would they like to eat the flesh of their brothers? Why is brothers used here? Does it mean people only backbite about men? People don't backbite about females? Obviously the answer is no. Males, females, all people backbite! But the point is to Allah it is like we are ripping into the flesh of someone who is dear to us. When we read that verse we can understand just how abhorrent God finds such behaviour among believers.
Then Allah continues to address believers and tells us that all people come from the same initial pair of humans, how we all have the same roots and our purpose is to get to know each other and be kind and just with each other, God divided us amin different nations but no nation or people or tribe is superior or is dearer to Allah. How the most noble/righteous among us are the dearest to Allah.
To summarise, mentioning women seperately does not mean anything sinister exists among women or something like that. It just means Allah is clarifying that He expects women to not be bullies to each other and be just. Generally women dealt with the household issues and domestic issues, mainly Allah is saying no matter in which sphere of life ( social life, professional, domestic household, judiciary etc) there is a disagreement between believers, the believers are expected to be just even if it means going against family members and friends. If the Prophet is asked to be the judge, then he is asked to not side with the oppressor.
The verse u cite is not singling out women with any purpose in mind. We always have to read surrounding verses to get the hang of the context. Believing women fight among themsleves, believing men also fight among themselves and so do believing men and women. The verse is not singling out women as more aggressive or as more prone to fighting or as more unjust or cruel among the two genders. I believe that the intention was to bring women and men under the injuction of justice, forgiveness and mercy.
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What a great answer Nura!
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Asalamu Alykum sister Nura
Masha'Allah
May Allah(swt) the Most Gracious reward you for your efforts :)
Peace
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Thanks jazzakkallah
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Salaam,
I think that MasAllah Nura is doing a wonderful job on the forum and may God bless you for your efforts :)
However I do disagree with comments about this verse. Firstly, the believers are addressed which clearly denotes both genders and then the same message is repeated with the target being exclusively women.
The message is being emphasised for women and may that be because women are more prone to that particular behaviour?
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Salam Truthseeker
The verse does single out women but not with the intention that women are more prone to such behaviour. Sorry but there is no indication of this in scripture nor in research papers in behavioral science. Painting any gender as more aggressive is only going to put gasoline on the gender wars that we often witness. Not only that such interpretation of verses result in the belief that women are targeted in the Quran as more unrighteous of the two genders by some people. But, we know it is not like that, God does not show favoritism in the Quran.
But I would like to ask u then why was this issue of disgreements between believers begun in the previous verses with the message that the Prophet should not be influenced by any party of beleivers? Surely you do not mean that the focus has been women all along and that the Prophet used to mediate fights between women always? Why was the masculine term ' flesh of brothers' used? Or the phrase ' believers are brothers' used? For some people usage of these may seem like only men backbite! And that is why it is said 'flesh of your dead brother'! If the focus is fights between women then shouldn't the usage also be ' flesh of dead sisters'?
If we take a look at the gender of soldiers at present or in the past, most were men. Does that mean men are more aggressive prone to fighting? or is it that because they are generally naturally blessed with more physical strength than women they make more suitable soldiers for war, where physical strength gives an edge. Can we say men are more aggressive? Is that fair?
I am sure you are familiar with the verse where God disapproves of homosexuality. The verse discusses such behaviour in the context of men. But can we then conclude men were singled out because men are more prone to be homosexuals? Does it make sense? Does real life medical science data support that conclusion that men are mostly homosexuals? R women not homosexual? Did God not know there r lesbians? Then why did this verse not mention them? Or the issue of lesbianism clarified in detail some place else in Quran?
Sometimes abhorrent behaviour in the Quran is discussed in the context of one gender, that doesn't mean others not belonging to that particular gender cannot/do not take part in such behaviour. The focus is never the gender or proving that one gender is more prone to sinning than another.
I still think that the issue includes both men and women!
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Nura-
I think what Truth Seeker is trying to say is that at the time, since women and men occupied different spheres of life, groups of them were backbiting each other, so a verse was sent down admonishing them. This is no way indicates that one of these groups is more prone to backbiting than the other.
Regards
wanderer
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I think Nura was right. Women mostly interacted with other women, which means they were probably mentioned separately to emphasize justice with each other. Maybe the verse was meant to show that backbiting could also happen in the domestic setting.
Also, it's possible that this verse was revealed in reference to an incident that just involved women. The same way, the homosexual men with Prophet Lot were singled out because they were the ones who had sinned in context of the verse. :)
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Salaam,
All I am trying to highlight is that the same message is being repeated twice. Firstly to everyone, then specifically to women. Obviously it wants them to pay more attention to it like a warning almost.The reason why can be interpreted in many ways.
I am not trying to ignite gender wars but do you honestly believe men and women think and behave the same when numerous studies prove otherwise. It does not mean that one is better than the other, just different.
When the Qur'an uses the term 'flesh of your brothers', it is masculine plural which includes both genders.
You mention war and mostly men fighting in them due to them being stronger which I agree with. But I also believe that they are more agressive than women due to their physiological differences.
There are clear differences between the sexes and I think it would be dishonest of us to ignore them.
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Salam Truth Seeker
I did not say there aren't physiological or behavioral differences between men and women. But what you are implying is that women are more prone to gossiping.
Then by your own logic men are more prone to exhibit homosexual behavior since men are singled out in that way. I am sorry but apart from physiological differences, there are no concrete proof that women are more querrelsome or men are more likely to be homosexuals. The Quran does not imply this nor does medical science or psychology.
Yes men and women react differently when exposed to different stimuli. Both mental and physical stimuli. But, there is no study where women were proven to be more prone to fighting and backbiting. Plus, there are always anamolies, there are women who are stronger than an average man, there are men who love to gossip. Behaviour is not something that is concrete between genders, it is fluid. Both genders are capable of behaving anyway they want. Psychology does not say that all men are aggressive and all women are submissive, a lot of factors have to be considered, and behaviour is a very subjective issue.
Yes the term 'flesh of brothers' is masculine pronoun and it can include both genders. I agree. My message was all along this, that both men and women are the subject in this particular context. The previous verses and the verses following the one quoted by Yahya, leave no doubt that both men and women are being given a lesson on how to behave with fellow believers.
Why women were singled out in this verse? Why men were singled out in the verse of homosexuality? These questions do not have a answer from the Quran. It is as it is. We are not told any such thing in the Quran that women are more prone to backbiting or homosexuality is something men find more attractive than women. I agree with Amira when she said verses often revealed a general ruling in a context. Sometimes when a situation arose, verses were revealed, but that does not mean both these verses were revealed only for a particular situation. Backbiting is not allowed or both men and women and so is homosexual behaviour.
A verse can be interpreted in many ways, I agree, but that does not mean we should accept the interpretation where one verse paints a negative picture of any one gender in particular.
If u say that women are being warned with more emphasis then you have to also conclude that when it comes to homosexuality, the emphasis is on men. I am sure none of us believe this to be true that men are more prone to homosexual behaviour.
We have to be consistent in our approach towards interpreting the Quran. And multiple interpretation is always a possibility but we are asked by God to follow the best and just interpretation.
Btw I did not mean to accuse you of creating dissension between genders, pls do not feel offended, it was never my intention.
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Salaam Nura,
I in no way felt that you accused me of dissention so please don't apologise :)
If the verses we are discussing is alluding to the fact that women are more prone to gossiping then I don't find it troublesome at all as studies prove that for example womens brains after wired differently from mens when doing the same tasks.
The emotional part of the brain is more active in women in day to day functioning as compared to men. They also talk a lot more than men day to day. Of course there will be exceptions but it is a general observation.
The Quran when dealing only in financial transactions states that 2 male witnesses be present or 1 male and 2 females. The reason given is that if one female forgets then the other one can remind her.(2.282) That doesn't mean she is less of a person.
I think that yes the emphasis has been more on men regarding homosexuality as can be seen by the story of Lot and other verses. I also believe that here are more homosexual men than women and studies do back it up. There is one for example in the UK conducted by the ONS in 2012 where twice as many men than women described themselves as homosexual.
At the end of the day God created us and He knows the differences between the genders best and it in no way diminishes us in terms of the blessings received from Him.
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Salam Truth Seeker :)
Yes that study says that the number of homosexual men as in outed men is more than outed women. I am sure u know due to stigma a lot of people do not come out of the closet! By prone to homosexuality I did not mean homosexual men are more in number than homosexual women. The true number can never be found because of a lot of factors. What I meant was are men more inclined towards homosexual behaviour than women? As in men have more tendency or preference towards homosexual behaviour than women This is not proven.
More outed men than women does not give enough data to conclude that. Inclinination or behaviour prediction is not made based on numbers of outed men or women. We cannot say men are more inclined from any such study. We can only say more men are out than women from that study. One cannot comment on the nature of homosexuality or men's inclination towards that. We can only say the homosexual population in UK has more males.
About the financial witnesses, the first woman's testimony is heard first if it is accepted then the second woman's testimony is not required. The case is then solved by the testimony of one man and the first woman. This point is often overlooked that the second woman is back up if the first one messes up. If the first one messes up her testimony is not accepted, the second woman's testimony is accepted. If both testimonies match, then the first one's is enough! In all cases the witness remains one man and one woman.
Anyway let's focus on what we have in common, we both agree the message is both for men and women the emphasis bit we disagree about but that is ok. :)
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Also about the financial testimony thing, it can also happen that two women's testimonies match with each other but not with that of the man, in such a case the two women's testimonies are accepted or should be accepted. When that happens a financial matter can also become solved using the testimonies of two females. God requires two witnesses and in each scenario He makes sure there are two acceptable witnesses. Acceptable to society, If we think God does not require witnesses, God knows the truth, even when we sin in private and there are no human witnesses. But when it comes to social issues multiple acceptable witnesses are required so that the chance of injusice occuring is reduced. But that does not mean that witnesses cannot be bought r they do notngive false witnesses, multiple witnesses reduce the chance of taht happening even if at a small degree. :)
During the 7th century women were not much involved in financial dealings or maybe the people during that time did not find the testimony of women acceptable when it came to matters of business or money. It was not a long time back that it was believed that men were more superior or capable as business men and dealing with money issues.
God does not differentiate but there are some things which have to be done keeping the general attitude of the population in mind, revealing a God's book to a woman at that time or making a woman a Prophet would have only meant one more social dogma to fight for that woman Prophet. Clearly women were not accepted as suitable. God know us and our circumstances. He knew which situations required what to be done. Women's trstimony was not acceptable to society at large not a long time back. God was trying to give rules that were acceptable or would have been accepatable bh Arabs without much social restructuring. And also God knew that more men were educated about money matters back then, requiring women to become witnesses when there were so few womwn who were well versed in finacial matters wouod have given rise to more problems. The whole situation gives a hint that God accepts the testimony of both genders. To Him we are all equal, but not all people in society believe this or behave in such manner.
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Salam everyone :)
I just found a link which talks about two studies where it was found men gossip more than women
https://nicolehart8.wordpress.com/2014/05/08/facts-on-why-guys-gossip-more-than-girls/
Now, I do not believe that men gossip more than women or vice versa cause that is overt generalisation. Studies such as these only prove that the sample for the research had men who gossiped more than the women in that sample. We cannot say such a thing that all over the world men gossip more than women. Such sweeping generalisations are only acceptable when God says such a thing because He knows all of us and He keeps track of everything. But God never said women gossip or backbite more in the Quran. Now, there is research data saying that on the contrary men gossip more. Such research is replete with potholes.
Next there is no research where it is found that men upon belonging to the male gender is more susceptible to homosexual behavior. No man has more chances of becoming homosexual just because his gender is male. Or that females have some kind of protection from incidence if homosexual behaviour just because their gender is female. No one knows for sure why someone experiences homosexual urges. There are scientific papers suggesting it is genetic but there are scientic oapers refuting such a claim as well. Nobody as of yet could prove conclusively why some people are homosexual others are not. Maybe there is no reason and it is just an inclination that is a test designed by God for a chosen few. We do not know because God has not told us that homosexuality is genetic or psychological in the Quran.But, it cannot be conclusively said that gender plays/does not play a role on the tendency or increased/decreased incidence of homosexual behaviour.
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Salaam Nura,
Thanks for your replies. I think that the conversation is veering off track and moving towards studies and surveys which is not the primary discussion.
There is a clear emphasis in the Qur'an on women regarding deriding others and a reason is not given as to why that is but it indicates that they have to pay particular attention to the verse.
We can surmise all day as to why but logic tells me they must be doing it more otherwise why single them out when they are already addressed in the previous verse.
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Salam Truth Seeker
I have posted before that verses were usually revealed in a context sometimes to deal with a particular situation that arose at that time and beleivers wanted divine guidance . I am not denying that the verse was not revealed during an event when women were fighting amongst themselves. It very well maybe. But that does not give us a reason to conclude women in general are more prone to fighting, gossiping or backbiting. And depending on the context the message was written using a male or female subject. But I do not think or believe that either women were singled out because they are more prone to gossiping or that men were singled out because they are more prone to homosexual behaviour. The Quran doesn't say that. The Quran always makes use of a context while giving out a ruling or law but sweeping generalisations were not made in either of the verses we were discussing.
Anyways, we can just agree to disagree. :)
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Salam Truth Seeker
Sorry I had to repost this, modifying time for the previous post was up :'( . I apologise for the inconvinience. But I feel like I am repeating myself and We both understand each of our points but we are not convinced. I think it is time to agree to disagree. This is most probably going to be my last post on this topic but before that I wanted to clarify my position ( u are free to think of this as female gibber-gabber :P )
I have posted before that verses were usually revealed in a context sometimes to deal with a particular situation that arose at that time and beleivers wanted divine guidance . I am not denying that the verse was not revealed during an event when women were fighting amongst themselves. It very well maybe. But that does not give us a reason to conclude women in general are more prone to fighting, gossiping or backbiting. And depending on the context the message was written using a male or female subject. But I do not think or believe that either women were singled out because they are more prone to gossiping or that men were singled out because they are more prone to homosexual behaviour. The Quran doesn't say that. The Quran always makes use of a context while giving out a ruling or law but sweeping generalisations were not made in either of the verses we were discussing.
I have shared research because neither does the scripture say such nor is there data to support ur assertion, on the contrary research papers can be found with just the opposite conclusion that men are more prone to gossiping. When scripture does not say such a thing, we have to rely on real life data. But there are researches where women were found to be more prone to gossiping and there are researches where men were found to enjoy gossip more. So, we can conclude that both men and women gossip and the issue is very subjective.
Anyways, we can just agree to disagree. :)
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Actually it is very simple Quran was sent to arabs at that time whom were/are very male centric society (as yet today still so i guess). You can see that by reading quran. Thats why it addresses sometimes like that.