QM Forum
The Quran => General Discussions => Topic started by: Lobotomize94 on November 01, 2014, 06:15:37 AM
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In a place the Quran says that we will be a new creation with different forms in the aftelife. Yet the Quran seems to say that the creation isn't really different as Allah will just re-assemble our bones, we will have legs, bones, arms, faces, etc...
The Quran says:
1.) That Allah will change our forms in the afterlife (Quran 56:61) and we will be a new creation (Quran 17:89)
Yet the Quran also says:
2.) That Allah will reassemble our bones, fingertips...and our legs will wound against us...Quran 75:3, Quran 75:4, Quran 75:29 and etc..
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Greetings Lobotomize94.
{17:89} does not talk about a new creation? Wrong number verse?
Do you mean [17:49]?:
17:49
They said, "After we turn into bones and fragments, we get resurrected anew?!"
وَقالوا أَءِذا كُنّا عِظٰمًا وَرُفٰتًا أَءِنّا لَمَبعوثونَ خَلقًا جَديدًا
If that is the case ,then the following verses explain it more?:
17:50
Say, "Even if you turn into rocks or iron.
قُل كونوا حِجارَةً أَو حَديدًا
17:51
"Or even if you turn into any kind of creation that you deem impossible." They will then say, "Who will bring us back?" Say, "The One who created you in the first place." They will then shake their heads and say, "When will that be?" Say, "It may be closer than you think."
أَو خَلقًا مِمّا يَكبُرُ فى صُدورِكُم فَسَيَقولونَ مَن يُعيدُنا قُلِ الَّذى فَطَرَكُم أَوَّلَ مَرَّةٍ فَسَيُنغِضونَ إِلَيكَ رُءوسَهُم وَيَقولونَ مَتىٰ هُوَ قُل عَسىٰ أَن يَكونَ قَريبًا
Also I think {56:61} is taking about this life?:
56:61
from substituting new generations in your place, and establishing what you do not know.
عَلىٰ أَن نُبَدِّلَ أَمثٰلَكُم وَنُنشِئَكُم فى ما لا تَعلَمونَ
GOD bless you.
Peace,
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So you don't think we will be a new creation. We will just be brought back to our forms?
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Greetings Lobotomize94.
Here are some verses that might throw some light to your query?
[Qoran 39:68] The horn will be blown, whereupon everyone in the heavens and the earth will be struck unconscious, except those who will be spared by God. Then it will be blown another time, whereupon they will all rise up, looking.
101:4
That is the day when the people come out like swarms of butterflies.
يَومَ يَكونُ النّاسُ كَالفَراشِ المَبثوثِ
89:22
And your Lord comes, together with the angels in row after row.
وَجاءَ رَبُّكَ وَالمَلَكُ صَفًّا صَفًّا
And.
69:13
When the horn is blown once.
فَإِذا نُفِخَ فِى الصّورِ نَفخَةٌ وٰحِدَةٌ
69:14
The earth and the mountains will be carried off and crushed; utterly crushed.
وَحُمِلَتِ الأَرضُ وَالجِبالُ فَدُكَّتا دَكَّةً وٰحِدَةً
69:15
That is the day when the inevitable event will come to pass.
فَيَومَئِذٍ وَقَعَتِ الواقِعَةُ
69:16
The heaven will crack, and fall apart.
وَانشَقَّتِ السَّماءُ فَهِىَ يَومَئِذٍ واهِيَةٌ
69:17
The angels will be all around, and Your Lord's dominion will then encompass eight (universes).*
وَالمَلَكُ عَلىٰ أَرجائِها وَيَحمِلُ عَرشَ رَبِّكَ فَوقَهُم يَومَئِذٍ ثَمٰنِيَةٌ
69:18
On that day, you will be exposed, nothing of you can be hidden.
يَومَئِذٍ تُعرَضونَ لا تَخفىٰ مِنكُم خافِيَةٌ
A new earth and a new heaven. A new dimension unlike our world now.
I suppose you can call us a new creation with a different programming of the brain for the new dimension?
However if you make the right choice now ,you have nothing to fear or worry about?:
21:101
As for those who deserved our magnificent rewards, they will be protected from it.
إِنَّ الَّذينَ سَبَقَت لَهُم مِنَّا الحُسنىٰ أُولٰئِكَ عَنها مُبعَدونَ
21:102
They will not hear its hissing. They will enjoy an abode where they can get everything they desire, forever.
لا يَسمَعونَ حَسيسَها وَهُم فى مَا اشتَهَت أَنفُسُهُم خٰلِدونَ
21:103
The great horror will not worry them, and the angels will receive them joyfully: "This is your day, that has been promised to you."
لا يَحزُنُهُمُ الفَزَعُ الأَكبَرُ وَتَتَلَقّىٰهُمُ المَلٰئِكَةُ هٰذا يَومُكُمُ الَّذى كُنتُم توعَدونَ
Also :
21:104
On that day, we will fold the heaven, like the folding of a book. Just as we initiated the first creation, we will repeat it. This is our promise; we will certainly carry it out.
يَومَ نَطوِى السَّماءَ كَطَىِّ السِّجِلِّ لِلكُتُبِ كَما بَدَأنا أَوَّلَ خَلقٍ نُعيدُهُ وَعدًا عَلَينا إِنّا كُنّا فٰعِلينَ
21:105
We have decreed in the Psalms, as well as in other scriptures, that the earth shall be inherited by My righteous servants/ worshipers.
وَلَقَد كَتَبنا فِى الزَّبورِ مِن بَعدِ الذِّكرِ أَنَّ الأَرضَ يَرِثُها عِبادِىَ الصّٰلِحونَ
GOD s promise will always comes true.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Thanks brother Good logic for that.
I guess the conclusion is, creation will be created a new--but our bodies will be resurrected in their form? Meaning our forms won't literally change, we will have our same bodies but exist in a different world?
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Dear Lobotomize94
As-salam alaykum
You respectfully conclude that "I guess the conclusion is, creation will be created a new--but our bodies will be resurrected in their form? Meaning our forms won't literally change, we will have our same bodies but exist in a different world?"
In my humble view and from a Quranic exegetical perspective, there is no support for this assertion.
With respect, arguably, any cogent exegesis of the Quran requires one to interpret implicit verses in the light of explicit verses and not vice versa.
The Quran in no uncertain terms, states that our forms will be recreated anew, a new life form, a different existence. This form is clearly stated as 'unknown' to humans.
056:060-61
"We have decreed death among you and We are not to be overcome. In order that We may change your likeness and produce you into what you know not."
Our earthly physiology has been designed to cater for this transient world; planet Earth. Not another planet, celestial object or world. Even in other parts of our very own solar system such as other planets, our forms would be useless as they would not cater for the specific environment of those planets. We would arguably die within moments without any assistance in those environments. Therefore when the world will be created anew, our forms will be recreated into an existence that would cater for that existence and not the world before which would have no purpose after destruction. From a Quranic perspective, we need to remove ourselves from an overtly earth-centric view of ourselves.
056.035
‘Lo” We have created them a (New Creation)”
(Inna (Indeed we/ Lo) Inshanahunna (We have produced them) Inshaa (Into a creation))
There is simply, no ambiguity in these verses.
Now with regards the other implicit verses that you have mentioned, they have a context. It is important to remember that the Quran in these instances was speaking to an audience that questioned resurrection outright. They could not believe / were not prepared to believe that once someone had died and become dust and bones that they could be resurrected again, ultimately questioning God's power over His creation. It was in this specific remit, that the response was given that God had the ability to recreate humans, even down to their very fingertips, if He so willed. (75:3-4)
075.003-4
"Does man think that We cannot assemble his bones? Nay! We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers!"
017.049
"And they say: "What! when we are reduced to bones and crumbled particles / dust, we will really be raised up (to be) a new creation?"
017.050-51
Say: "Become stones or iron, or any created matter which, in your minds, is hardest (to be raised up), - (Yet shall ye be raised up)!" Then they will say: "Who will restore us?" Say: "He who created you the first time!" Then they will shake their heads at you and they will say "When will it be?" Say "Perhaps that will be soon",
Now this does not mean that humans can become stones, iron or any other form that one wishes. No of course not! We shall remain flesh and bones. However, the response is given in this manner to underscore the fact that God has the power to resurrect regardless of what earthly forms His creation may occupy. This does not negate or contradict the explicit verses which state that resurrected souls will be created anew in tandem to requirements of a world yet to come, as God wishes. There is a difference.
For example, If I am in inventor of a unique vehicle and assert that I will recreate another of a different form, after I completely demolished the existing one and you claim, that I could not; my response to you that I had the power and know how to completely recreate the existing vehicle does not negate my initial assertion which is that I will create a totally new vehicle. Your assertion in this instance would be wholly unwarranted given that I have already created a unique vehicle in the first place, thus by logical inference, I could thus create the existing vehicle once again, as well as one of a completely different form.
The Quran often presents similitudes of a world, yet unknown to humans, in order that they may relate to it. This must not be confused with interpreting it in absolute literal terms.
014.048
“On the day, the earth will be changed to a different earth, and so will be the heavens, and they will come forth to God, the One, the Irresistible"
Therefore, in conclusion, we will be created a new life form, in a new world yet unknown to us. This is supported by explicit verses of the Quran. Other verses of an implicit nature merely underscore God’s authority and power to do what He wills and is a specific rebuke to the claims made by those that were not willing to accept resurrection as a reality.
I hope that helps, God willing.
Joseph
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Wow brother Joseph, what a wonderful explanation! I feel like verse 56:35 may be referring to the companions of paradise rather than you (the "houris"). The verse states that we have created them a new creation for the companions of the right hand. That means this creation is FOR the companions of the right hand. This may be a possibility so it is important to take that into account.
Quran 56:60-61 would be extremely explicit if it was referring to our forms in the hereafter. Unfortunately, some say that it is referring to Allah replacing humans with another species on Earth through some kind of natural selection involving death. What is your take on that? Is it speaking about the hereafter?
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I also wanted to point you to this verse:
Quran 36:78-79 ...He says, "Who will give life to bones while they are disintegrated?" Say, "He will give them life who produced them the first time; and He is, of all creation, Knowing."
This is different from Allah just claiming that he can do it, Allah is literally saying that he will give life to the disintegrated bones. I feel like this means that our bodies will be resurrected.
What do you think brother Joseph? Is this the same thing as what you were talking about in your post before?
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Dear brother Joseph,
As-salam alaykum.
Brother Lobotomize94 has asked the same question which I also have in my mind. Verse 36:79 says "...He will give them life Who produced them (the) first time". So can we say that our current earthly bodies will be given life, yet the 'form' of our creation will be a new form?
Regards.
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Dear Lobotomize94
As-salam alaykum
You respectfully share the following:
Quran 56:60-61 would be extremely explicit if it was referring to our forms in the hereafter. Unfortunately, some say that it is referring to Allah replacing humans with another species on Earth through some kind of natural selection involving death. What is your take on that? Is it speaking about the hereafter?
In my humble view, the verse context is absolutely clear in that it pertains to what happens when one dies (as decreed) and what follows thereafter to them. These verses, with respect, remain explicit.
056:060-61
"We have decreed death among you and We are not to be overcome. In order that We may change your likeness and produce you into what you know not."
With your suggestion, one may ask as to how could this narrative be referring to the creation of another species on earth when the subject reference is ‘the one who dies’ and it is their forms that is being referenced as created anew (produce you - wanunshi-akum) in a manner that they know not? There would arguably be no point in suggesting to one that passes away in death, that they will not know of what would be created after them on earth. Such an obvious intimation would arguably be superfluous in this context.
As I am sure that you will appreciate, giving life to bones so that it is part of a new creation is one thing. Resurrecting the complete human being in exactly the same form as they existed on earth is quite another. With respect, there remains a crucial difference between the two and the Quran only confirms the former in explicit terms.
One only has to ponder a little on this matter to realise that even one's own anatomical structure changes throughout their maturing life on earth. So the obvious question arises, if it is assumed that one’s bones are resurrected in exactly the same manner as they existed on earth, will their bones be replaced as when they were 5 years old, 15 years old, 35 years old, 70 or 90 with all the possible ages in-between or as when they died?
If the former is accepted for argument sake, then this would be an arbitrary process and if the latter, then in the new world, some will be potentially recreated around as 5 year old children (as when they died), others in their middle ages and others still, in infirm old age in the same manner as they passed away. As you can appreciate, this is a very problematic scenario laced with conjecture.
As one can imagine, this will lead to the same kind of slippery slope questioning one after the other that is beyond the remit that the Quran provides as guidance. As we can all appreciate, one must remain vigilant not to elicit finer and finer details of a general religious commandment or theological perspectives that the Quran is intentionally silent on. After all, the Quran instructs believers to only engage with clear matters (3:7; 18:22).
However, I humbly posit the following that I feel can be deduced from the Quran:
- Humans will be created into a form unknown to them "..In order that We may change your likeness and produce you into what you know not." (56:61); ‘Lo” We have created them a (New Creation)” 56.35
- Does this mean that God may use some form of skeletal system (one's bones) to create some kind of structure? - Yes this is quite possible, but it will still be a new creation unknown to our minds.
- Will the form be exactly like what we had on earth? - Arguably not. Please see (1) above. Having any kind of knowledge of the 'form' would negate the verses in (1) above. An earthly form is known to humans.
Furthermore, it remains noteworthy that one's anatomy including one's bone structure undergo physiological changes from birth to death to cater for earthly needs and as a result of one's life burdens. There is absolutely no proof that the state of felicity in the Hereafter will be exactly the same as here on Earth. Rather, the Quran provides many similitudes which infer that the environment will be somewhat different to our own here on earth, as will our ability to interact with it. - God retains the absolute ability to create whatever He wills and resurrect one in whatever form He wills, even if He wills to recreate one down to their very fingertips.
- Could there be a similarity of form as we had on earth? This is quite possible, though one will not know what the exact form will be (56:61). However, it is very plausible that to undergo retribution, some kind of mechanism will be present in order to feel pain, especially if an evil-doer is to undergo some of the punishments as listed below:
The paralysing cold (78.25), scorching fire and scolding water and shade of black smoke (56.43) burning till it changes the colour and skins of man (74.29) and every time their skin is roasted it will be recreated (4.56), They will eat from the deadly tree of Zuqqum with its food like the heads of devils (37.62-68) and like molten brass will boil in their bellies like boiling scolding water (44.43-46) and it will cut up their bowels to pieces (47.15). They will also drink boiling water because of the intensity of their thirst like that of camels (56.55), from a boiling spring (88.5) and eat food of bitter thorns that neither nourishes nor avails against hunger (88.6-7). The fuel of fire is men and stones (66.6) and their garments are of melted copper and their faces will be covered in fire (14.49-50). - Is it possible that those that are given felicity (heaven) will have different forms as compared to those who are in hell-fire which are given their same bodies in return? There is no unequivocal proof for this other than what is explicitly stated in the Quran. What we know for sure is that our forms will be unknown to us. Yes, they may have similar physiological overlaps to our earthy bodies (e.g. have a skeletal system, skin etc.), but they will be designed to either cater for an endless abode in paradise or the ability to undergo repetitive punishment (e.g. burning) in hell. Arguably, our exact earthly bodies are not catered for that kind of longevity or harsh environment. Thus it can be posited that these bodies will have a different essence to them to undergo such conditions, albeit that they may have similitudes with our earthly form (e.g. anatomical overlaps).
I hope that this clarifies, God willing
Joseph
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Dear brother Joseph,
As-salam alaykum.
Brother Lobotomize94 has asked the same question which I also have in my mind. Verse 36:79 says "...He will give them life Who produced them (the) first time". So can we say that our current earthly bodies will be given life, yet the 'form' of our creation will be a new form?
Regards.
Wa alaikum assalam Sword,
I hope my detailed response to Lobotomize94 above clarifies this matter from my humble perspective.
I hope this helps, God willing
Regards,
Joseph
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As-salam alaykum.
Thank you very much my dear brother Joseph for the detailed explanation.
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Thank you brother Joseph.
It seems to me that you are right. It is explicit that our forms would have different characteristics despite some similitude's to our current form.
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Okay, so in a recent thread: http://quransmessage.com/forum/forum.htm (http://quransmessage.com/forum/forum.htm), Brother Joseph has stated that Quran 56:60-61 means that we will be created in new forms in the afterlife and he has stated really good reasons for it.
I can't help but think that Quran 56:60-61 may relate to some other verses. First this is what Quran 56:60-61 states:
Quran 56:60-61:"We have decreed death among you and We are not to be overcome. In order that We may change your likeness and produce you into what you know not."
The following verses refer to Allah changing the forms of humanity on Earth!
(Quran 6.133) If He wills, he can do away with you and give succession after you to WHATEVER He wills, just as He produced you from the descendants of another people (qawmin).
(Quran 4:133) If it were His will, He could destroy you, o mankind, and create another race; for He hath power this to do.
(Quran 35:16) If He wills, He can do away with you and bring forth a new creation.
(Quran 14:19) If God wills he can remove you and put in your place a new creation.
(Quran 47:38) And if you turn away, He will replace you with another people; they will not be the likes of you.
(Quran 76:28) It is We Who created them, and We have made their joints strong; but, when We will, We can substitute the like of them by a complete change.
In the above verses we see a reference to Allah destroying Mankind and creating another peopleI can't help but think that the above verses relate to 56:60-61 in that Quran 56:60-61 means that Allah will create another race on Earth that has a form we do not know.
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Dear Lobotomize94
As-salam alaykum
With utmost respect, I simply cannot fathom why you are refusing to acknowledge the context of verse 56:60 which is explicit, unequivocal and speaks specifically about death. The context of verse 56:61 is sealed by the previous verse (56:60) which is speaking about 'death' and what happens afterwards. Verse 56:61 is a continuation . In fact, the whole of Surah 'Al-Waqiya' has a central theme which is a reference to the Hereafter.
I have already, respectfully shared the following:
"In my humble view, the verse context is absolutely clear in that it pertains to what happens when one dies (as decreed) and what follows thereafter to them. These verses, with respect, remain explicit.
056:060-61
"We have decreed death among you and We are not to be overcome. In order that We may change your likeness and produce you into what you know not."
With your suggestion, one may ask as to how could this narrative be referring to the creation of another species on earth when the subject reference is ‘the one who dies’ and it is their forms that is being referenced as created anew (produce you - wanunshi-akum) in a manner that they know not? There would arguably be no point in suggesting to one that passes away in death, that they will not know of what would be created after them on earth. Such an obvious intimation would arguably be superfluous in this context."
In the absence of any concrete proof from you as to why verse 56:61 must be split / torn apart from its contextual verse 56:60, please kindly accept my response as my last to you on this matter. May I also kindly request that you do not open up more threads repeatedly discussing the same issue as you have done with your last post which has been amalgamated with this thread.
Regards,
Joseph
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Dear Lobotomize94
As-salam alaykum
With utmost respect, I simply cannot fathom why you are refusing to acknowledge the context of verse 56:60 which is explicit, unequivocal and speaks specifically about death. The context of verse 56:61 is sealed by the previous verse (56:60) which is speaking about 'death' and what happens afterwards. Verse 56:61 is a continuation . In fact, the whole of Surah 'Al-Waqiya' has a central theme which is a reference to the Hereafter.
I have already, respectfully shared the following:
"In my humble view, the verse context is absolutely clear in that it pertains to what happens when one dies (as decreed) and what follows thereafter to them. These verses, with respect, remain explicit.
056:060-61
"We have decreed death among you and We are not to be overcome. In order that We may change your likeness and produce you into what you know not."
With your suggestion, one may ask as to how could this narrative be referring to the creation of another species on earth when the subject reference is ‘the one who dies’ and it is their forms that is being referenced as created anew (produce you - wanunshi-akum) in a manner that they know not? There would arguably be no point in suggesting to one that passes away in death, that they will not know of what would be created after them on earth. Such an obvious intimation would arguably be superfluous in this context."
In the absence of any concrete proof from you as to why verse 56:61 must be split / torn apart from its contextual verse 56:60, please kindly accept my response as my last to you on this matter. May I also kindly request that you do not open up more threads repeatedly discussing the same issue as you have done with your last post which has been amalgamated with this thread.
Regards,
Joseph
Hello brother Joseph, sorry for making another thread: I just wanted to raise a concern on Quran 56:60-61 and you are right, that I should have just posted it here.
I guess the issue as to why I cannot fathom this verse saying that we will be a new creation in the afterlife, is because other verses are like it and seem to also be superflous in the context but speak about changing human forms in earth while using the word "you".
Perhaps in Quran 56:60-61, "you" refers to 'mankind'. In that we will transform you and create you into a form that you do not know. So mankind would be in a new form on Earth.
Like this verse:
(Quran 35:16) If He wills, He can do away with you and bring forth a new creation. In this case, you refers to a new creation.
Here too:
(Quran 6:133) If He wills, he can do away with you and give succession after you to WHATEVER He wills, just as He produced you from the descendants of another people (qawmin).
And here too:
(Quran 14:19) If God wills he can remove you and put in your place a new creation.
The only reason this new thing has been brought up in my mind is that I remember reading an article of yours that stated that we should interpret the Quran using other verses in the Quran. So my concerns were, perhaps that Quran 56:60-61 is related to these other verses? What do you think about that.
On one hand I agree with you, but on the other, I'm still unsure. Thanks!
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Dear Lobotomize94
As-salam alaykum
You assert:
“I guess the issue as to why I cannot fathom this verse saying that we will be a new creation in the afterlife, is because other verses are like it and seem to also be superflous in the context but speak about changing human forms in earth while using the word "you".
Let me kindly remind you again by repeating what I have already shared with you:
The context of verse 56:61 is sealed by the previous verse (56:60) which is speaking about 'death' and what happens afterwards. Verse 56:61 is a continuation. In fact, the whole of Surah 'Al-Waqiya' has a central theme which is a reference to the Hereafter.
Furthermore, I presented you another clear verse which refers to the formation of another creation in the hereafter (56:35) to corroborate this. (Inna (Indeed we/ Lo) Inshanahunna (We have produced them) Inshaa (Into a creation)). You are with respect, seemingly ignoring this and the context of the verses.
In my humble view, there is absolutely no point in seeking "other verses are like it" when the interpretation is foremost linked to its immediate context and the very verse before it. There is no need in this instance to seek wider interpretation from other verses when the interpretation is primarily satisfied by its immediate context.
You continue to assert:
"The only reason this new thing has been brought up in my mind is that I remember reading an article of yours that stated that we should interpret the Quran using other verses in the Quran. So my concerns were, perhaps that Quran 56:60-61 is related to these other verses? What do you think about that."
With respect, of course one should make use of other verses, but when there is an immediate context, that must be addressed first and accepted as primary focus. Tearing verses out of immediate context arguably only yields to faulty interpretations. One cannot simply ignore the primary context in search of other verses to satisfy one's own interpretation.
Finally all the verses you have shared have specific contexts as a reference to God's ability to replace one generation of people with another who are not so wanton, or His ability to replace one species with another if He so wills which is cited to underscore His complete authority and will. However, these contexts have nothing to do with the specific context shared in the verses above which have their own interpretative contexts regarding the after-life. With respect, there is no point in underscoring you which refers to subject matters underpinned with their own contexts. One simply cannot shift one word from one context and apply it to another expecting correct interpretation.
Please let me kindly and respectfully reiterate once again. Verse 56:61 is satisfied by its immediate context and the main theme of the Surah which speaks of the after-life.
I cannot explain it or present this argument to you more simply, or in any other way.
056:060-61
"We have decreed death among you and We are not to be overcome. In order that We may change your likeness and produce you into what you know not."
056.035
‘Lo” We have created them a (New Creation)”
(Inna (Indeed we/ Lo) Inshanahunna (We have produced them) Inshaa (Into a creation))
There is simply, no ambiguity in these verses. The whole surah mainly focuses on the after-life. Please kindly read the whole surah in its entirety.
As I have already respectfully shared with you: "In the absence of any concrete proof from you as to why verse 56:61 must be split / torn apart from its contextual verse 56:60, please kindly accept my response as my last to you on this matter. "
I trust that this finally clarifies the matter from my humble perspective :)
With respect and regards,
Joseph
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Hello brother Joseph, Thanks for your well thought out response.
In Quran 56, Allah says that people will be separated into three classes: 1.) The foremost people 2.) The companions of the right hand 3.) the companions of the left hand.
Allah then goes on to say that the foremost people, will be accompanies by houris, will be nearest to Allah and will be in Bliss. Then Allah goes on to say that the companions of the right hand will be pure, untouched, new form of creation..but won't be nearest to Allah and Allah did not say anything about them being in bliss.
I'm wondering why is there such a strong separation between the foremost people and the companions of the right hand? I thought everyone in paradise would be close to Allah, in bliss and would have the companionship of houris? This chapter seems to say that not everyone would and for some reason the creation of the companions of the right hand is special (why not the foremost people, why do the companions of the right hand not have the companionship of the houris)? .
Do you think this means that your reward is relative to how good your actions were? It is not a pass/fail system--it would be more of a grade system. An A, a B and a C is passing. And a D as well as an F is failing. Those who get an A get more than those who get a B in this life test? I guess the only issue is, why is the creation of the companions of the right hand more special than the foremost people (the best people-those who got an A)? And the companions of the right hand may not be in bliss and near Allah like the foremost people?
I'm wondering what your thoughts on this is?
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Dear Lobotomize94
As-salam alaykum
Yes, despite the 3 broad classes mentioned, there is a ranking system in heaven which will be even more numerous than on earth. Unlike our present life, the Hereafter will be wholly dependent on one's deeds and God's mercy. This can be attested by numerous verses of the Quran. For example:
017:021
"See how We have bestowed more on some than on others (in this world) and surely in the Hereafter is greater in degrees / ranks / gradation, and more / greater in excellence."
This numerous ranking system, even in paradise, regardless of the broad categories is also strongly suggested in other verses:
076:016
"(Bright as) glass / crystal-clear but (made) of silver, which they (themselves) have measured to the measure (of their deeds) / They will determine its measure (in accordance)."
004:095
"...God has preferred the ones who strive with their wealth / property and their lives to (excel) over the ones sit / sedentary (do not strive as much) in rank, and to each (class) God has promised good; and God bestowed on those who strive a great reward above the sedentary"
006:132
“To all are degrees (or ranks) according to their deeds: and your Lord is not unaware of what they do”
052:020
"They will recline (with ease) on thrones (of dignity) arranged in ranks / rows / lines..."
This is no different from the different levels of punishment that will exist in hell-fire such as 78:25-26 - "Except boiling water and a paralysing cold. A recompense proportioned (to their evil deeds) / appropriate" and other verses which attest to similar gradations of punishment (e.g. 15:43-44; 52:20; 40:046)
With respect, I do sense that you are attempting to read too much into the information that the Quran deliberately only provides in similitudes, at times with a deliberate dearth of information.
I also feel there is no warrant to assuming that those on the right hand will not be close to God, after all it is with His mercy that they enter a state of felicity in the first place. Thus one must be careful not to become too overly obsessed with questions relating to eschatology especially when the Quran has only deemed it appropriate to part with the information it has.
I think most believers would be content in reaching paradise, any form of paradise, and not be subject to God's wrath. Thus I do feel the primary focus should remain on one’s good deeds.
I hope that helps, God willing
Joseph
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Dear Joseph Islam,
Thanks for your kind response! I think your last post made perfect sense and it seems to adequately explain this ranking system. I think it is quite fair. It makes me wish the Quran was organized in a manner that lists the topic and then explains everything about that topic rather than dispersing everything throughout the Quran. But then, honestly, this makes me refer to the Quran a bit more.
I'm wondering if there is a Quranic basis for the argument that we will not value anything in the hereafter once it has passed on Earth. We wouldn't value our beauty that we had on Earth for example. The Quran makes it clear that we will no longer value our wealth, but how about our physical features on Earth? Will we value them now that we have different bodies in the afterlife? Can we still value the gift that Allah has given us on Earth (beauty)? If so, then one can argue that Allah wouldn't be just as some may be perceived as being ugly on Earth and wouldn't value what Allah has given them on Earth (ugliness) in the afterlife? In here you would have an inequality in bliss, one would be happier than another in terms of being beautiful on Earth while not being in control of being beautiful on Earth. Is there a Quranic basis in support of the argument that we will not value Earthly things like beauty and we will only value our deeds and how God has guided us to the true path?
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Salaam Labotomize,
I have noticed that you are asking the same sort of questions in different ways even after Joseph has explained in great detail to my satisfaction and I am sure, others on this forum too.
Politely, may I request that you not ask any more questions on this topic to Joseph as he is inundated with queries from other people and his time is extremely limited. I am sure other forum members will be happy to discuss this topic with you further, but in all honestly and respect, I feel that the matter has been exhausted.
I think that it would be better to look at the overall picture of the hereafter and what delights it will entail for its residents, rather than focus on small matters like beauty and it's relation to what we were like on Earth. It is mentioned in the Quran how grateful will be with what God has given us
Just because someone was deemed 'ugly' on Earth, doesn't mean that they will not be happy in heaven.
I am not sure if you realise, but in your posts you have mentioned several times that God will not be being just in this scenario or that scenario. He is the most just ..perfectly just so much so that the disbelievers will acknowledge this on the Day of Judgement.
I hope you don't mind my comments but I just thought I would point out some aspects as someone who is looking in from the outside.
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I think that it would be better to look at the overall picture of the hereafter and what delights it will entail for its residents, rather than focus on small matters like beauty and it's relation to what we were like on Earth. It is mentioned in the Quran how grateful will be with what God has given us
Just because someone was deemed 'ugly' on Earth, doesn't mean that they will not be happy in heaven.
Hello brother Truth Seeker, I do not mind your comment at all and I hope that Brother Joseph does not find my questions an intrusion on his forum. If Brother Joseph does, I ask that he does not respond to it and I give my sincere apologies. I can find another means to ask these questions to other people--hopefully I can find people who won't spit hadiths at me. I found previous forum questions helpful to myself, and perhaps this may be helpful to others?
I wanted to inform you that I do have problems with believing in Islam and that I was an Atheist all of my life. I'm still searching for truth and I can't consider myself a "muslim" yet. This argument that I have presented follows a theme that has been in my mind against Islam and it seems to be a struggle I am pursuing with myself and debates. This argument is actually a re-statement of an atheistic argument that the afterlife proves that God is unjust and therefore a just God doesn't exist. Even if the Quran claims that God is most just--if there is a portion of Quranic teaching that displays God's injustice, then it is a contradiction. With me, I follow the evidence where it leads not what is most feasible to believe. As you know, Atheism is easier for me to believe as it makes me careless and happy about life. But now that the topic of Islam is introduced and it could be true, my life has changed in a bad way--social anxiety came back, I started caring and stressing over things and so on. I believe this may be a test that Allah is making me go through. Allah has made me more biased towards atheism, and I am still leaning towards Islam despite how much damage Islam is doing and has done to my life.
I am not sure how this would be exactly like the other inquiries, I find this a very serious problem against Islam. I am not saying that someone who was 'ugly' on Earth wouldn't be happy in paradise, I meant that someone who was deemed "pretty" on Earth would have something to value more than someone who was deemed "ugly" in the hereafter and that creates a sort of inequality in the afterlife. What I argued to my atheist counterpart was that our bodies would be different in the afterlife so we wouldn't share the same inequalities we had that were beyond our choice on this life. The atheist then argued that we can still value the beauty we once had on Earth and ugly people cannot value their ugliness on Earth in the afterlife. So here you have an inequality in value/pride that is independent of your deeds--you were made ugly by chance and someone else would value something in the afterlife that they weren't in control of on Earth. This is not to say that people won't be in bliss in paradise! This is to say that some people in paradise may be unjustly happier or have more to take pride in than others because they value things beyond their control (beauty on Earth).
I once argued that everyone would be equally happy in paradise, but that was false as brother Joseph pointed out. So some may get more than others in paradise and this further makes my point a stronger piece of concern. Some may be unjustly happier to what Allah has given them on Earth by chance (beauty). This would be true unless we do not value anything on Earth except our deeds! We would not value our intelligence our beauty that we had and so on. So is there a Quranic basis for this?
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Salaam Labotomize,
Just to add that I am sister :). I find it admirable that you have come so far in you quest for truth considering you were an Atheist . I really hope that you overcome your anxiety and worry as inner peace and fulfillment should be the goal IA.
I can't see anything I the Quran that refers to us as having value and pride in our beauty on Earth.
Believers should always see this as a blessing and something beyond their control rather than being proud..as we are reminded often in the Quran that pride has no place for he believer.
Our deeds will get us into heaven as will our faith in God..and in heaven that is what people will discuss with each other, not the attributes they had been given beyond their control.
The default position in heaven will be happiness and true justice will surely be in the different levels
of felicity as you are rewarded according to your deeds and struggle and everyone will have different levels on Earth so why not in the hereafter.?
The result will be that no one will be unhappy as they were rewarded accordingly.