QM Forum
The Quran => General Discussions => Topic started by: ZKAB90 on May 02, 2016, 11:06:52 PM
-
HIKMA means HADITHS, and not WISDOM, as many Quran-alone followers claim. This VERY SHORT response given by a Hadith follower amazed me:
QURAN-ALONE CLAIM: the word ‘bihee’ (with it) that appear at the end of the verse [2, 231] is in the singular mode, in other words it describes one thing and not two. For that reason the words ‘Al-Hekmah’ and ‘Al-Ketab’ must denote one thing and not two, unless of course God is making grammatical mistakes!
If the words ‘Al-Hekmah’ and ‘Al-Ketab’ really referred to the Quran and the Sunna, then the verse should grammatically end with the word ‘bihima’ (with them), which is the plural mode of ‘bihee’.
HADITH-FOLLOWER CLAIM: This is the same point raised by Farouk Peru before. The answer is the Dhamir Muttasil “hi” refers to “ma” in verse. It doesn’t refer to “Al Hekmah” and Al Kitab” but Ism Mausul “ma” in the verse.
The source is http://antiantihadeeth.blogspot.be/2008/05/defending-imam-syafiee-from-anti.html
-
Asalamu Alykum
I'm quite confused about what your trying to say here.
Most people who follow the Quran, believe the term Hikma means and refers to Wisdom.
Also I find that the site you provided clearly displays that the word Hikma is best defined as Wisdom from the debate.
Please see an example bro Joseph used to display how the Quran uses the Arabic.
055:068
"In both of them (are) fruits (Arabic: fakihatun) and (wa) date-palms and (wa) pomegranates"
Here the conjunction 'wa' (and) when used with date-palms and pomegranates only clarifies the 'fruits' and is not read as separate from the category of fruits (fakihatun).
Now compare that verse when God is telling us about the Book and the Hikma.
Also another verse to ponder about is this one
33:34 And remember what is recited in your houses of the verses of Allah and wisdom. Indeed, Allah is ever Subtle and Acquainted [with all things].
The word Hikma(wisdom) cannot be a separate entity of the verses of Allah. Because then a question of what were these Wisdom that was being recited to them by the Prophet? And Where are they if they are different than the Quran?
These verses were clearly being recited. So there should of been something that was written or was memorized at the time of the Prophet that He had with him.
This cannot be referring to the secondary sources that was written by other men many many decades after the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh).
Peace
-
Shalom / peace
...I think this article debunks the traditional view .......
DOES 'HIKMAH' (WISDOM) MEAN SUNNA OF THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD? (pbuh) - http://quransmessage.com/articles/hikmah%20FM3.htm
-
Salamu Alykum
I should if been more clear. The term Hikma in the verses do not relate to sources other than the Quran. The Hikma (Wisdom) is referred to the Quran itself. See how the Arabic "wa" is used in another verse which explains the verses being questioned about the Book and the Wisdom. You will realize that this is normal and the Arabs are fimiliar with such writing.
055:068
"In both of them (are) fruits (Arabic: fakihatun) and (wa) date-palms and (wa) pomegranates"
Here the conjunction 'wa' (and) when used with date-palms and pomegranates only clarifies the 'fruits' and is not read as separate from the category of fruits (fakihatun).
Peace and blessings Insha'Allah
-
Salamu Alykum
I should if been more clear. The term Hikma in the verses do not relate to sources other than the Quran. The Hikma (Wisdom) is referred to the Quran itself. See how the Arabic "wa" is used in another verse which explains the verses being questioned about the Book and the Wisdom. You will realize that this is normal and the Arabs are fimiliar with such writing.
Aleikum salam
waidhâ Tallaqtumu al-nisâ'a fabalagna ajalahunna faamsikûhunna bima`rûfin aw sarriHûhunna bima`rûfin walâ tumsikûhunna Dirâran lita`tadû waman yaf`al dhâlika faqad Zalama nafsahu walâ tattakhidhû 'âyâti al-lahi huzuwan waadhkurû ni`mata al-lahi `alaykum wamâ anzala `alaykum mina al-kitâbi waal-Hikmati ya`iZukum bihi waattaqû al-laha waa`lamû anna al-laha bikulli shay'in `alîmun
This is the 2/231 transcripted. Notice I have highlightened the HI of the word bihi. This HI refers to MA that I have also highlightened. Thus, it is not refers to Hekmah, it is not referring to Wisdom.
-
Salaam ZKAB90,
The claim that the word Hikam refers to a secondary revelation is (with respect) ridicules and finds absolutely no support from the Quran. There is absolutely no mention of two types of revelations anywhere in the Qur’an
Please consider reading the following piece which goes into detail regarding this:
http://z8.invisionfree.com/Ahl_Al_Quran/index.php?showtopic=30
Here's a relevant excerpt from the link I shared with you:
We understand that the revelations of Allah have many attributes. Allah has not just assigned "names" for His revelations - rather the "names" mentioned are actually attributes that signify different characteristics of His revelations. The word "Al-Qur'an" itself is not a name but an attribute. It means 'The Recital", or "The-Recitation", specifying the attribute of recitation of Allah's revelations. There are many attributes of Allah's revelations. For example, "Al-Zikr", meaning "The-Reminder" as Allah's revelations are supposed to REMIND us; "Al-Huda", meaning "The-Guidance" as the revelations are supposed to GUIDE us; "Al-Kitaab", meaning the "The-Book" or "Written Record" as Allah's revelations are in the form of a Book, a written record; "Al-Furqaan", meaning 'The Criterion". Similarly, "Al-Hikmah" is also an attribute of Allah's revelations as it is supposed to teach us WISDOM behind the written words in 'Al-Kitaab".
The following verses clearly explain to us that Wisdom is an attribute of the Qur'an:
“Alif Laam Ra; these are the Verses of the Book of Wisdom [Kitaab al-Hakeem]” [Quran 10:1]
“Alif Lam Mim; these are the Verses of the Book of Wisdom” [Quran 31:1-2]
“Ta Sin. By the Qur'an full of Wisdom” [Quran 36:1-2]
“We have made it a Qur'an in Arabic, so that you may use your Aqal. And verily it is in the Mother of The Book, in Our Presence, High, Full of Wisdom” [Quran 43:3-4]
"These are of the Wisdom [al-Hikmah], which your Lord has revealed to you. Take not, with Allah, another object of Worship, lest you should be thrown into hell, blameworthy and rejected [Quran 17:39]
The above verses make it evident that Wisdom is an attribute of the Qur'an. Thus when the Qur'an is revealed to the Prophet, its Hikmah is also revealed to him by default.
The “wisdom” is found in the teachings of the Qur’an. Surah Isra verse 39 (17:39) says: “This is part of the wisdom that your Lord reveals to you. The word ‘wisdom’ (in this verse) refers to some thirteen ethical teachings enumerated in verses 22 to 38 (of Surat Al-Isrā ).
But if, as you seem to believe, the prophet (pbuh) was given two seperat revelation, then I would like to post a question to you:
1] Why would Allah send down a dual-revelation? Are we to suggest that the Quran in-itself is incomplete or ambiguous and therefore needs the support of a secondary source? To give you a better understanding of what I mean, consider the two following verse in which Allah instructs us to follow solely the Quran.:
"And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: SO FOLLOW IT (Arabic: fa-ittabi'uhu) and fear (God) / be righteous so that you may receive mercy" [Quran 06:155]
If, as you suggest, Allah had made it incumbent upon us to uphold and follow a second source then surely it would be appropriate for Allah to have given mention to it in this verse, would it not?
Consider also the following verse:
“Say: "What thing is most weighty in evidence?" Say: "God is witness between me and you; THIS QURAN HAS BEEN REVEALED TO ME BY INSPIRATION that I may warn you and all whom it reaches. Can you possibly bear witness that besides God there is another God?" Say: "Nay! I cannot bear witness!" Say: "But in truth He is the one God, and I truly am innocent of (your blasphemy of) joining others with Him” [Quran 06:19]
Again, if we are to believe that the prophet received a secondary revelation which was/is incumbent upon us to uphold and follow then surely it would be appropriate for Allah to have given mention to it in that verse, would it not?
I conclusion, please bear in mind that the ONLY revelation the prophet received was the Quran alone, as attested to by the following Quranic verses: See: 7:203; 6:19; 5:48; 42:7;
and the only revelation he was instructed to uphold and follow was the Quran alone. See: 7:203; 6:155; 10:15; 33:2;46:9; 6:106; 6:50;
and the only revelation he was responsible for admonishing and warning the people with was the Quran alone. See: 6:19; 27:91-92; 5:45; 42:7; 38:65-70;
and the only revelation he was responsible for judging with it was the Quran alone. See: 5:48-49; 4:105
Hence the burden is on you to show/proof that the word hikma (which, as said above, is only one of many attributed/names of the Quran) is a reference to a secondary revelation and not another attribute of the Quran.
-
Does the Quran wish us to follow the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)? Yes.
This should be enough evidence. “(O Muhammad, to mankind): if ye love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, merciful.” Ahl-Imran 3, Verse 31
There are nineteen times that obedience of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is stated in the Quran by Allah Subhanu wa ta’ala
source: http://sectarianrefutations.blogspot.be/2007/02/refutation-of-group-tolu-e-islam.html
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the page you will able to read the 19 Quranic citations that, in my opinion, reinforce the fact that we must follow, if not all the Ahadith, surely some of them.
-
Salaam ZKAB90,
You said:
Does the Quran wish us to follow the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)? Yes.
This should be enough evidence. “(O Muhammad, to mankind): if ye love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, merciful.” Ahl-Imran 3, Verse 31
First off, on what conceivable grounds can the expression 'if ye love Allah, follow me' be used to sanction extraneous sources which were not arguably 'CANONISED' until CENTURIES after the death of the Prophet?
Furthermore, allow me to ask you:
What did the prophet follow?
What (scripture) did Muhammad use to dictate his life?
What scripture did Muhammad base his life decisions on?
Surely prophet Muhammad did not, on his accord, make up everything he was preaching and every act/ritual (such as the salat, zakat, hajj, fasting, upholding of justice, etc) which he performed (which we are instructed to emulate), correct? Those acts must have come from somewhere, correct? But what (scripture) could have inspired many of Muhammad's acts (which is now incumbent on us Muslims to perform)?
Moreover, how and from where did the prophet learn how to perform the Salat, how to make Hajj, how to observe the month of Ramadan, etc? The logical answer would be: from the Quran; the prophet learned how to perform those rituals solely from the Quran. Continuously are we told (in the Quran) that the only revelation (or scripture) which Muhammad received was the revelation of the Quran (See: 7:203; 6:19; 5:48; 42:7) and it was that revelation (Quran) alone which he was responsible for upholding and following (See: 7:203; 6:155; 10:15; 33:2;46:9; 6:106; 6:50), responsible for admonishing and warning the people with (See: 6:19; 27:91-92; 5:45; 42:7; 38:65-70), and responsible for judging with it (See: 5:48-49; 4:105).
Thus, if we, as Muslims, are to follow the example of the prophet (Quran 33:21) then let us do so by following the same and only scripture which was revealed to the prophet (See: 7:203; 6:155; 10:15; 33:2;46:9; 6:106; 6:50) and which he was commanded to only follow (See: Quran 6:155), and let us base all of our religious assertions and/or theological standpoints and rituals solely from the Quran.
Hence, should the Quran not suffice as the only sources necessary for our guidance?
You've also said:
There are nineteen times that obedience of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is stated in the Quran by Allah Subhanu wa ta’ala
With respect to the many verses instruct us (Muslims) to obey the messenger, please understand that a messenger is simply someone who carries a message; and the message the prophet carried was none other than the Quran (see: 7:203-204; 6:19; 5:48 42:7; 6:29;). Therefore, by obeying the messenger we are obey the Quran and Allah.
Please understand that the first directive of the command 'obey the messenger' was clearly to the contemporaries of the Prophet who were the direct addressees. They were being instructed to trust in the Prophet’s authority in the message he was delivering and acting on.
Therefore, 'Obey the Messenger' meant obedience to his authority (in his capacity as a messenger/prophet). This understanding also finds support in the following verse where it is clear that it was not only the Prophet that needed to be obeyed, but also those in authority.:
"O ye who believe! Obey God, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. Then if you disagree in anything among yourselves, refer it to God and His Messenger, if ye do believe in God and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination" [Quran 4:59]
The Quran repeatedly announces obedience to the messenger; albeit they are the same person, the Quran never conveys the instruction to obey 'Muhammad' in his capacity as a man/husband/father and in his personal preferences and choices; only in his capacity as a messenger/prophet is to be obeyed. The significance of this specific address by the title 'messenger' is often not appreciated. The 'message' remained connected to the 'messenger' and it was in this capacity of the 'messenger' that Muhammad (pbuh) needed to be obeyed. In fact, a stark warning was given to Prophet Muhammad if he so much as introduced any personal preferences in the matter of God's ordained 'deen', as the following verse shows:
“And if the messenger were to invent any sayings in Our name, We should certainly seize him by his right hand, And We should certainly then cut off the artery of his heart: Nor could any of you withhold him (from Our wrath). But verily this is a Message for the God-fearing”[Quran 69:44-48]
Therefore, the inclusion of the phrase "obey the Messenger" after "Obey Allah" is significant in the following ways:
Who among the companions of the Prophet ever heard any of God's revelations directly from God? No one! Consequently, they cannot obey God except through Muhammad's delivery of the Quran. The Quran came out of Muhammad's mouth. This makes it necessary for God to command people to obey the messenger since he is the one who delivers to them God's message.
Moreover, the messenger did not just deliver the Quran and vanish! The prophet spent all his years from the time he received the first revelation till his death inviting all people to believe in the Quran and to follow it. Hence it is necessary for God to command all humans to obey the messenger who is inviting them to accept the message (Quran).
For more info, please consider visiting the following sites:
http://quransmessage.com/articles/obey%20allah%20and%20the%20messenger%20FM3.htm
http://www.detailedquran.com/quran_data/Obey%20Allah%20and%20obey%20the%20messenger.htm
Please know that prophet Muhammad is no longer alive and with us, so it is not possible for us to obey someone who is now dead. Thus, the first directive of the command obey the messenger was to the contemporaries of the Prophet who were the direct addressees. They were being instructed to trust in the Prophet’s authority in the message he was delivering and acting on. Sense the prophet is no longer with us, the only way in which we can obey him is by obeying and upholding the only message he delivered (the Quran).
-
Salam All,
Just wondering,
Is not "hadith" already used in the Quran? and if so, why does hikma mean the same and not sound similar to the root of hadith? i thought the language is based on this triad of letters.
:)
-
Essalamü Aleyküm from İstanbul,
My name is Abdurrahim,
"Hikma " "Hikmet"
My opinion:
User Guide, Find the unknown with the known..
my humble view
-
Walaikum SalamAbdurrahman,
Welcome to the forum. And thank you for sharing your humble opinion.
-
"İnsh'Allah we hold fast, all together the Rope of Allah... Quran 3:103
-
4:105] We have sent down to you the scripture, truthfully, in order to judge among the people in accordance with what GOD has shown you. You shall not side with the betrayers.
[4:106] You shall implore GOD for forgiveness. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
[4:107] Do not argue on behalf of those who have wronged their own souls; GOD does not love any betrayer, guilty.
[4:108] They hide from the people, and do not care to hide from GOD, though He is with them as they harbor ideas He dislikes. GOD is fully aware of everything they do.
[4:109] Here you are arguing on their behalf in this world; who is going to argue with GOD on their behalf on the Day of Resurrection? Who is going to be their advocate?
[4:110] Anyone who commits evil, or wrongs his soul, then implores GOD for forgiveness, will find GOD Forgiving, Most Merciful.
[4:111] Anyone who earns a sin, earns it to the detriment of his own soul. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.
[4:112] Anyone who earns a sin, then accuses an innocent person thereof, has committed a blasphemy and a gross offense.
[4:113] If it were not for GOD's grace towards you, and His mercy, some of them would have misled you. They only mislead themselves, and they can never harm you in the least. GOD has sent down to you the scripture and wisdom, and He has taught you what you never knew. Indeed, GOD's blessings upon you have been great.
[4:114] There is nothing good about their private conferences, except for those who advocate charity, or righteous works, or making peace among the people. Anyone who does this, in response to GOD's teachings, we will grant him a great recompense.
[4:115] As for him who opposes the messenger, after the guidance has been pointed out to him, and follows other than the believers' way, we will direct him in the direction he has chosen, and commit him to Hell; what a miserable destiny!
-
Salam Hassan,
I find good rebuttal to you. Read carefully please, there are 3 proofs:
PROOF N°1
Abū Ruquyah Farasat Latif, in his “The Qur’aniyūn of the twentieth century”, [http://www.academia.edu/3452285/The_Quraniy%C5%ABn_Of_The_Twentieth_Century (http://www.academia.edu/3452285/The_Quraniy%C5%ABn_Of_The_Twentieth_Century)] in page 43 says:
“The Qur’aniyūn reject the orthodox Islamic position which equates the word ‘Hikmah’ in some of the Qur’anic verses to mean ‘sunna’ I will demonstrate that the Hikmah mentioned in the Qur’an does, in a number of verses, refer to the sunna. A number of verses prove this:”
The he gives these verses: 4:113, 2:231, 2:129, 2:151, 3:164, 33:34, 62:2
In all these verses there is the conjuction “wa” [“and”], so he conclude that
“Shafi’I explain that the letter ‘wa’ (meaning ‘and’) between Book and Hikmah in the verses above is:
<<a letter of conjunction in Arabic which requires that the two parts it joins must be different otherwise the sentence will be redundant>>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PROOF N°2
Again, Abū Ruquyah Farasat Latif, in the cited work, in page 54, the section “Methods used by the Companions to preserve the Sunna” gives some methods:
i) Memorisation, because “The Arabs were renowned for their powerful memories. It has been scientifically proven that the constant use of a certain human faculty makes it more responsive. The early Arabs paid great attention to their memories and developed this to its highest point”
ii) Recollection of hadith
iii) Practice, because “The Companions were keen to implement everything they had learnt. Their daily routines such as worship, dress, food, personal hygiene, family relations, business, travel and so on, were based upon the sunna. Continual practice of the sunna ensured its preservation”
iv) Asking questions to one another
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PROOF N°3
Millions of people, in the last 14 centuries, have prayed and asked to Allah for their guidance. Now, a little school of thought, the Qur’aniyūn, make takfir over millions and millions of people. Amazing...
-
Salaam ZKAB90,
You said:
Abū Ruquyah Farasat Latif, in his “The Qur’aniyūn of the twentieth century”, [http://www.academia.edu/3452285/The_Quraniy%C5%ABn_Of_The_Twentieth_Century] in page 43 says:
“The Qur’aniyūn reject the orthodox Islamic position which equates the word ‘Hikmah’ in some of the Qur’anic verses to mean ‘sunna’ I will demonstrate that the Hikmah mentioned in the Qur’an does, in a number of verses, refer to the sunna. A number of verses prove this:”
The he gives these verses: 4:113, 2:231, 2:129, 2:151, 3:164, 33:34, 62:2
In all these verses there is the conjuction “wa” [“and”], so he conclude that
“Shafi’I explain that the letter ‘wa’ (meaning ‘and’) between Book and Hikmah in the verses above is:
<<a letter of conjunction in Arabic which requires that the two parts it joins must be different otherwise the sentence will be redundant>>
With respect, it's clear that you have failed to read the link I shared with you in a previous reply; because that link addressed this exact argument. From the link (and I shall share it again:
When the above arguments are presented to the Traditionalists, some of them get very emotional and shout that "there is no 'WAU ATFA' in the rest of the 'Hikmah' usage and therefore that 'Hikm' is different from the one used in 3:164". They fail to see the logical implications of this stubborn and emotional argument. We will analyse some other Verses of the Qur'an in the light of this argument.
"And if they reject you, so did their predecessors to whom came their messengers with clarity AND [Wal] Scripture AND [Wal] the Book of clarity” - (Ch.35: Ver.25)
Now in this Ayah the same "wau atfa" is used for the revelation brought by the past messengers. According to the logic posed by the Traditionalists, the above Ayah would mean that the past Messengers came with THREE DISTINCT revelations - "Clarity", "Scripture", and "The Book of Clarity". According to their logic, we should not consider all three of the above to be different attributes of Allah's revelations. However, we MUST consider them THREE distinct revelations. This creates a problem - If the "Scripture", and the "Book of Clarity' are DISTINCT, where is the SCRIPTURE of those people (for even if they show us their BOOKS - written records, we cannot accept that as scripture as it MUST be DISTINCT from the BOOK).
Let us look at a few more "Wau Atfa" Ayat. In the following Ayah, Allah is talking to Jesus. He says:
“I taught you the Book [wal]AND THE [hikmah] Wisdom [wal] AND The-Law [Torah] AND The-Gospel [Injeel]” - (Ch.5: Ver.110)
So according to the logic used by the Traditionalists, Allah taught Jesus FOUR DISTINCT revelations named as "The Book", "The Wisdom", "The Torah", and "The Injeel". This would mean that The Book is DISTINCT from Torah and Injeel. Thus according to the Traditionalist’s interpretation, during that time, there were four revelations making the rounds!
We may look again at a few more Ayat:
"Even as We have sent among you a Messenger from among you who recites to you Our Ayat and purifies you and teaches you the Book AND [wal] the wisdom AND [wal] teaches you that which you did not know." (Ch.2: Ver.151)
Now, we see another "wau Atfa". Here the Messenger teaches us "The-Book" AND "The-Hikmah", AND teaches us "that which we did not know". Thus according to the logic of the Traditionalists the presence of the "wau atfa" would mean that he is teaching us THREE DISTINCT things. Now, the Traditionalists have established that "Al-Kitaab" is the Qur'an, and "Al-Hikmah" is the "Hadith and Sunna". Now in addition to this we would like to know what is this NEW KNOWLEDGE that the Messenger is teaching…mind you because of the "wau atfa" the "new knowledge" MUST be DISTINCT from "Al-Kitaab", and "Al-Hikmah". Where this NEW KNOWLEDGE would be found? It cannot be in the Qur'an, or even in the Hadith.
We are sure that anyone with a grain of reason in his mind can see the logical error committed by the Traditionalists.
#1 http://z8.invisionfree.com/Ahl_Al_Quran/index.php?showtopic=30
As for PROOF N°2, I subscribe to the believe that the supposed Sunnah of the propeth finds absolutely no explicit support from the Quran, and if you believe otherwise, then the burden is on you to support that standpoint solely from the Quran. Therefore, I couldn't really care about the supposed method used to safeguard the "Sunnah of the prophet", which itself finds no support from the Quran.
Furthermore, are you aware of the fact that there is no single agreed upon definition of Sunnah? Some individuals/sects say that whatever the Prophet (PBUH) said or did in private, or in public, is his Sunnah. Others say that whatever is in the books of hadith comprise the Sunnah. Still others say whatever the Prophet (PBUH) did in his capacity as a man/father/husband is not Sunnah; only the things which he did in his capacity as prophet/messenger comprise the Sunnah. It is, therefore, safe to conclude that there are as many variations in the definition of Sunnah as there are sects and sub-sects in Islam. Each sect thinks its definition is the right one.
As for PROOF N°3, how is that relevant to me and/or to this issue at hand in this post? I have never asserted that the current method of prayer perfromed by the majority of Muslims or their method of seeking guidance from Allah is wrong; nor I'm I a Qur’aniyūn .
Now kindly answer the two question I have posted to your earlier, which were:
1] Why would Allah send down a dual-revelation? Are we to suggest that the Quran in-itself is incomplete or ambiguous and therefore needs the support of a secondary source? To give you a better understanding of what I mean, consider the two following verse in which Allah instructs us to follow solely the Quran.:
"And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: SO FOLLOW IT (Arabic: fa-ittabi'uhu) and fear (God) / be righteous so that you may receive mercy" [Quran 06:155]
If, as you suggest, Allah had made it incumbent upon us to uphold and follow a second source then surely it would be appropriate for Allah to have given mention to it in this verse, would it not?
Consider also the following verse:
“Say: "What thing is most weighty in evidence?" Say: "God is witness between me and you; THIS QURAN HAS BEEN REVEALED TO ME BY INSPIRATION that I may warn you and all whom it reaches. Can you possibly bear witness that besides God there is another God?" Say: "Nay! I cannot bear witness!" Say: "But in truth He is the one God, and I truly am innocent of (your blasphemy of) joining others with Him” [Quran 06:19]
Again, if we are to believe that the prophet received a secondary revelation which was/is incumbent upon us to uphold and follow then surely it would be appropriate for Allah to have given mention to it in that verse, would it not?
-
peace Hassan,
Surely prophet Muhammad did not, on his accord, make up everything he was preaching and every act/ritual (such as the salat, zakat, hajj, fasting, upholding of justice, etc) which he performed (which we are instructed to emulate), correct? Those acts must have come from somewhere, correct? But what (scripture) could have inspired many of Muhammad's acts (which is now incumbent on us Muslims to perform)?
Moreover, how and from where did the prophet learn how to perform the Salat, how to make Hajj, how to observe the month of Ramadan, etc? The logical answer would be: from the Quran; the prophet learned how to perform those rituals solely from the Quran.
From my experience some students of Quran say they base their practice of those things from Quran but often don't.
Can you give us a very brief overview on your take on:
salat
hajj
sawm
zakat
-
Salamu Alykum
Dear Brother Wakas
If I may give my opinion on the question you asked Brother Hassan A.
What I think your trying to bring out of Brother Hassan is that the Quran does not make any mention of specific fine information like how many times in prayer one has to bow and the rate of zakat and so on... And that muslims who are Quran centric tend to somehow resort to practices that are not explained in fine detail in the Quran.
I believe this is what your trying to get to? Correct me if I'm wrong.
What is really important is that the Quran furnishes all the important details of what would be required of prayer, hajj, zakat, fasting etc. I do agree and so do all the Quran centric folk that the Quran does not explain fine details. There seems to be a very important reason why.
GOD wants people to use their abilities to THINK, and put into PRACTICE what He has ordered. If GOD willed He could of been more specific, but He did want people to use their minds and to come up with a systematic way of performing what He has ordered. There is a great example of this in the story of Moses when he told his people that GOD commands you to sacrifice a cow (2:67-2:71). I believe the Prophet was humble enough to take wisdom from this story.
He did not want to be like them and ask so many questions and act like he did not know how. He understood that GOD wants and allows people to THINK. He did not cry out to GOD after GOD has specified in the Quran loads of details of all aspects and tell him I'm still confused. Can you explain more to me. Or that there was an absence of form.
No, He took what He believed was fully detailed and worked with what He was given. If their was anything wrong with the ways he performed his duties then it would of been made mention in the Quran.
The Prophet did indeed use his brain to come up with a system of zakat, a system of prayer, a system of upholding justice, and a system of fasting that would add the finer detail of what we see not included in the Quran.
And also there is more great wisdom in why there is a absence of finer detail regarding the aspects you mentioned. For example, believing Muslims who ALWAYS look to the Quran as their source of guidance from generation to generation would realize that their rate of zakat would need to be changed revolving around the situations they are in. The ritual prayers might be performed differently according to the situations they encounter.
Please see this article below
A SIMPLE INSTRUCTION CONFOUNDS MANY - 'ESTABLISH SALAAT'
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/487157614754704
Salam dear brothers
-
Salaam ZKAB90
As someone else mentioned here, the word 'hadith' has already been used in the Quran elsewhere but not where you are implying it exists.
Why would God say that the quran is complete yet ask believers to follow hadith as well. Which hadith?...by whom..?.shia or sunni?...by definition all the 'saheeh' hadith are true regardless of being from shia or sunni? So why all the arguments about disproving each sects position.
There are so many contradictions in the hadith literature that if we were to believe that they were God ordained, then it would be so easy to lose faith in Islam.
It is very clear when in the Quran, God is asking the belivers to obey the prophet, it is referring to those people around him in his lifetime !
The prophet is their leader and commander in chief and they must
of course follow and trust in him and his commands.
Thanks
-
It is very clear when in the Quran, God is asking the belivers to obey the prophet, it is referring to those people around him in his lifetime !
The prophet is their leader and commander in chief and they must
of course follow and trust in him and his commands.
Aleikum salam,
Are you trying to say indirectly that the Qur'an is created, i.e. that is destined only for a specific time, like the time of Muhammad, and not this time in which we are living now?
-
peace Hassan,
Surely prophet Muhammad did not, on his accord, make up everything he was preaching and every act/ritual (such as the salat, zakat, hajj, fasting, upholding of justice, etc) which he performed (which we are instructed to emulate), correct? Those acts must have come from somewhere, correct? But what (scripture) could have inspired many of Muhammad's acts (which is now incumbent on us Muslims to perform)?
Moreover, how and from where did the prophet learn how to perform the Salat, how to make Hajj, how to observe the month of Ramadan, etc? The logical answer would be: from the Quran; the prophet learned how to perform those rituals solely from the Quran.
Can you give us a very brief overview on your take on:
salat
hajj
sawm
zakat
Hello all,
Responding to the posts above, in particular the origins of Salat, Hajj etc... Everything PRE-EXISTED Muhammad. In fact the ritituals go all the way back to Abraham. For example please see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRLFeldPG3Y
I believe Ramadan, salat was already practiced by Mecca prior to the revelation of the Qur'an. The message of the Quran is not about formulas for rituals, but the opposite.... The Quran is about the recognising of diversity in the Ummah and not forcing a specific ritual. The Quran is about unity, those previously saying "Our formula is correct", but instead a message of repentance from associating gods with God.
This is what is the tendency of the Quran centric movement, in removing later tradition it removes the text from its context, and end up trying to find a verse for every situation in the 21st century.
I said in another post that the concept of Mecca being in "Jahiliyah" is a later tradition. Mecca and the Arab tribes already knew of Salat, Ramadan etc... however lived compromised pseudo-faith..partly due to not having an Arabic Kitab; which is what is confronted by the Quran.
Someone mentioned about the pre-existence of the Qur’an... I believe this is a tradition that emerged far later. The Qur’an was clearly revealed at the time of Muhammad for, as Truth Seeker says, to be relevant for the context of Muhammad.
Wasalam
Zack
-
The Qur’an was clearly revealed at the time of Muhammad for, as Truth Seeker says, to be relevant for the context of Muhammad.
So now it is not relevant according to you?
Thinking in this way is counter-productive for the correct development of the religion. But maybe the Qur'an-centric position, and specially the contextualization of the Qur'an in a specific time-space lead to deny the validity of the Qur'an until the Last Day.
According to orthodox school of thought, this kind of thought is clear Bid'ah, a heretic thought.
-
The Qur’an was clearly revealed at the time of Muhammad for, as Truth Seeker says, to be relevant for the context of Muhammad.
So now it is not relevant according to you?
According to orthodox school of thought, this kind of thought is clear Bid'ah, a heretic thought.
I have never said the Quran is not relevant to now.. I have said that it is relevant to the historical context of Muhammad. And SOME contexts change. Please see the my latest post on recent discussion on the Sharia law...
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=4253
Re "orthodox School of Thought", is any one on this forum following that? ;)
Wasalam
Zack
-
According to orthodox school of thought, this kind of thought is clear Bid'ah, a heretic thought.
I meant to say in regards the idea of "Orthodox"... Someone once said, "Orthodoxy = the strongest heresy" Ie. If you are in Utah, USA.... The mormon belief is Orthodoxy... "Orthodox" is just what the majority is following. The day our allegience is with what is "orthodox", that is the day of stagnation.
Wasalam
-
Salaam ZKAB90,
It is very clear when in the Quran, God is asking the belivers to obey the prophet, it is referring to those people around him in his lifetime !
The prophet is their leader and commander in chief and they must
of course follow and trust in him and his commands.
Are you trying to say indirectly that the Qur'an is created, i.e. that is destined only for a specific time, like the time of Muhammad, and not this time in which we are living now?
With respect, that is a misrepresentation of what brother / sister Truth Seeker was saying. He / she wasn't arguing that the Quran was destined only for a specific time; rather he / she was making the case (as I have on a different thread) that the first directive of the command 'obey the messenger' was clearly to the contemporaries of the Prophet who were the direct addressees. They were being instructed to trust in the Prophet’s authority in the message he was delivering and acting on. Consider this: Who among the companions of the Prophet ever heard any of God's revelations directly from God? No one! Consequently, they cannot obey God except through Muhammad's delivery of the Quran. The Quran came out of Muhammad's mouth. This makes it necessary for God to command people to obey the messenger since he is the one who delivers to them God's message.
Peace.
-
Salam Zack,
Responding to the posts above, in particular the origins of Salat, Hajj etc... Everything PRE-EXISTED Muhammad. In fact the ritituals go all the way back to Abraham. For example please see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRLFeldPG3Y
I believe Ramadan, salat was already practiced by Mecca prior to the revelation of the Qur'an. The message of the Quran is not about formulas for rituals, but the opposite.... The Quran is about the recognising of diversity in the Ummah and not forcing a specific ritual. The Quran is about unity, those previously saying "Our formula is correct", but instead a message of repentance from associating gods with God.
I fully concur. The simple point I was making in my initial response to ZKAB90 was that: if we wish to exemplify the prophet should we, then, not uphold the same and only scripture he upheld and draw (religious) inspiration/guidance from the same scripture he drew it from?
Peace.
-
Aleikum salam Hassan;
You say that Ahadith are not Hikmah with discutable points.
As I told you the prophecies are the greatest points to approve it. Then, you respond telling me that Muhammad could not know about the future... However this verse I think it will defintely break your argument. Look:
[He is] Knower of the unseen, and He does not disclose His [knowledge of the] unseen to anyone http://quran.com/72/26
Except whom He has approved of messengers, and indeed, He sends before each messenger and behind him observers http://quran.com/72/27
Checkmate.
-
Salam ZKAB90
That is probably the weakest argument so far! God reveals knowledge of the unseen to the messengers.... Let's see what is that unseen... Quran, hence the messengers, talk about God... Have u seen God? So He is unseen... What else... Let's see... Prophet also talks about Jinns have u seen them? They are unseen as well... The angels they are unseen as well... Just to name a few unseen things only... So the Quran was not saying prophet knew when the end will come... Clear verses in the Quran say that the prophet doesn't know... Implicit verses taken out of context mean absolutely nothing.... Btw the verse u quoted actually hint to what unseen things God is talking about... God sends osbservers, they are angels... God sends angels.. They are unseen... So checkmate back at u....
-
Salam ZKAB90
Aleikum salam Nura.
Have u seen the future? No, it is unseen. However, Muhammad foretold many things.
That So the Quran was not saying prophet knew when the end will come
Not only the Qur'an! The Ahadith saying the same thing, i.e. that he doesn't know when the world will be end, but he gave many signs about.
I know the truth is hard to swallow... Again, checkmate.
-
Salam ZKAB90
Do u even realise that we oppose ur so called prophecies because they r not in the Quran?
The hadith is not revelation even if it says somethings that happen to occur by chance! If the Quran contained these prophecies I wouldnt argue with u!
Knowledge of future, specifically signs about hereafter was not given to the prophet. The Quran says so. I never said Quran did not make prophecies! I believe the prophecies in the Quran only because I believe it is a book from God! Not that I beleive in Quran because of the prophesies. It is always the other way around with u. What I believe to be the cause u believe to be the affect!
Btw I am not a prophet so knowledge of unseen is not revealed to me! So, me being not able to see the future is neither here nor there! I am not someone who is unseen or possesses knowledge of the unseen.
You want to believe in a collection of sayings to be holy that is not sanctioned by God, be my guest! But I for one won't believe in anything beyond reason solely because fear of uncertainty is dreadful and unbearable for some ppl!
I believe this is the last time I am replying to you! We have very different approach towards thinking about religion and logic! I am convinced we will never see eye to eye! God bless!
-
I believe this is the last time I am replying to you! We have very different approach towards thinking about religion and logic! I am convinced we will never see eye to eye! God bless!
GOD - there is no deity save Him, the Ever-Living, the Self-Subsistent Fount of All Being. Neither slumber overtakes Him, nor sleep. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth. Who is there that could intercede with Him, unless it be by His leave? He knows all that lies open before men and all that is hidden from them, whereas they cannot attain to aught of His knowledge save that which He wills [them to attain]. His eternal power overspreads the heavens and the earth, and their upholding wearies Him not. And he alone is truly exalted, tremendous. http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/255/
I do not see contradiction in that the Prophet could be allowed to know the future and then people write down his prophecies. However, Nora, I'm not afraid.
It is only the logic. This verse confirm that this isn't a contradiction: this very verse not confirm the truth of the Ahadith but it don't deny too. It open the door to many possibilities.
-
Salam ZKAB90,
First off, that verse you cited says nothing about Allah revealing or granting the knowledge of the unseen or the future to whom He wills; rather it's saying that no one encompasses anything of Allah's Knowledge except [of] what (or whom) He wills.
Secondly, given that no name is given mention to in verse 2:255, then on what conceivable ground can you assert that the phrase save that which He wills [them to attain] is a reference to the prophet Muhammad?
All that said, I have cited you (many of times before) ample explicit verses which makes it abundantly and explicit clear that NO ONE EXCEPT ALLAH knows of the unseen or of the future which have seem to intentionally ignore (I presume because it defeats your whole argument) I'll cite said verses again.....perhaps you'll take understand:
"Verily the knowledge of the Hour is with Allah (alone). It is He Who sends down rain, and He Who knows what is in the wombs. Nor does anyone know what it is that he will earn on the morrow: Nor does anyone know in what land he is to die. Verily with Allah is full knowledge and He is acquainted (with all things)." [Al-Qur'an 31:34]
"They ask thee about the (final) Hour - when will be its appointed time? Say: 'The knowledge thereof is with my Lord (alone): none but He can reveal as to when it will occur. Heavy were its burden through the heavens and the earth. Only, all of a sudden will it come to you.' They ask thee as if thou were eager in search thereof: say: 'The knowledge thereof is with Allah (alone), but most men know not.' " [Al-Qur'an 7:187]
Allah (continuously) says in the quran that the prophet was no more than a human being and had no such knowledge of the last hour. As demonstrated by the following ayats:
"Say, (O Muhammed) "I am no more than a human being like you...." [Quran 18:110]
"Say (O Muhammed), "I am not different from other messengers. I have no idea what will happen to me or to you. I only follow what is revealed to me. I am no more than a profound Warner." [Quran 46:9][/u
"Say (O Muhammed), "I have no power to benefit myself, or harm myself. Only what God wills happen to me. IF I KNEW THE FUTURE, I would have increased my wealth, and no harm would have afflicted me. I am no more than a warner, and a bearer of good news for those who believe." [Quran 7:188 ]
"Say (O Muhammed), "I do not say to you that I possess the treasures of God. Nor do I know the future..." [Quran 6:50]
So the logic from the four ayahs I quoted can be broken down as follows:
Human beings cannot predict any part of the future; prophet Muhammad was a human being; therefore he (Muhammad) could not have foretold the future.
This belief you're clinching to (regrading the prophets supposed prediction of the future/unseen) finds no support from the Quram; in fact, the Quran says the opposite (i.e. Muhammad -pbuh- had absolutely no knowledge of the unseen/future).
-
Salam All,
Its funny how something so simple ends up being debated over and over again. just a few straight forward points in which i think will help in settling the argument.
1- Hikma does not mean hadith. Hadith means hadith. no two ways about it. no point arguing about it as Allah uses those two words distinct from each other.
2- Who gave authority to uphold the hadiths as islamic jurisprudence? Allah? if so please show a clear verse stating so without arguing the numerous factors that could or could not be.
3- Why did Allah send down the Quran to our prophet to struggle and propagate the Qurans message for 20 odd years?. You may not understand the gravity of the situation and how huge of an event it is for us humans and non humans. But acknowledging the hadith as something to be taken as compulsory just renders all the hard work, deaths, wars and so on irrelevant when we know it is not.
4- Did the Muslims in between the time of our prophets demise and the inception of the hadith books look to hadiths as guidance? thats more or less 200 years duration.
5- The Muslims in China, we know received the message before any hadiths emerged.
6- The Quran states that nothing but the Quran is supposed to be written down by the scribes. If anything other than the Quran is written, Our prophet would of gotten it hard.
7- Is it a possibility that the only way syaitan could manipulate Islam or the Quran is by disguising falsehood within commentary books and its creators? I mean, why would syaitan mislead us by appearing as an enemy?
8- The hadith has many proven scientific errors.
9- The hadith is what causes us muslims to be divided in factions, sects and groups.
10- The Qurans states, In what other Hadith other than this Quran will you believe in? Is that not a strong statement enough to discourage you from tales from disneyland? i mean arab land?
8-
-
Salam All,
I guess...We should not waste our time explaining or debating things with people who are blinded by shaitan...he is not going to listen to our thoughts neither going to consider going through it...unless God wills i guess...:)...so lets just let him be...and kindly stop arguing and explaining things to him...it really disheartens..as you guys have been providing clear evidence...still he has been refusing to believe it...so why waste time...lets pray that...May God heal him and guide him to the right path..:)..Amen
Regards,
Anjum
-
People forget that there are two versions of Hadith - Sunni and Shia. Both sects claim to be the only true Muslims based on their Hadith books. The Shias, on YouTube quote pretty strange ahadith [including Bukhari] to embarrass the Sunnis.
As for Sunnah, each sects has it's own favorite version. Which is true? The one practiced by Sufis or Salafis? Ahdmedi or Ismailis? Ahle Fiqh or Ahle Sunnah or Ahle Hadith? Shias or Sunnis [along with their sub-sects].
We reserve the right to judge all sectarian secondary sources material collected by Persians generations after the blessed Messenger [mostly through hearsay] by Al Furqan.
-
peace Hamzeh,
I was waiting for Hassan to reply before responding.
In any case, the gist of what you said is fine as long as one bears in mind the view you hold is one option, not the only option.
-
However, Nora, I'm not afraid.
Perhaps you should be, as the command to fear God is mentioned throughout.
from 3:102:
اتَّقُوا اللَّهَ حَقَّ تُقَاتِهِ
(Fear the God, [as it is the] truth that he [is to be] feared)