QM Forum

Asalamu Alykum Dear Br. Joseph Islam

I have read your article "People of the Book" and found that you have pointed out that the Quran tells the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) that to let the Jews and the Christians to judge by what they are given. (5:42-48)

Just to understand and referring back to the original text in Arabic. in verse 5:44 translations say:

Yusuf Ali
It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light.

is the"was" an accurate translation as I know "feeha"  means "in it" or "therein" and I can't find "was" in the Arabic.

I noticed the translation you used in the article also says "was"

005.044
It was We who revealed the Torah (to Moses): therein (Arabic: Fi-ha) was guidance and light.

Now what I'm trying to get it is that some people refer to this as a past tense. Or its somewhat sarcasm when verse 5:43 is explained. That they come to the Prophet for judgement because they dont have there books.

I honestly hate to waste your time and over mention something. I read your posts about the Torah and all the subcategories that have to do with it. I myself honestly feel that the verses are clear and agree with your views on them.

Its really a shocking news to some when they hear this. but I was really nervous today by how people react when you tell them you believe this. I feel like I'm the one going against the Quran. so its as if I just need to confirm. Because I feel like I'm denying that the Quran came to all humanity. And not everyone should follow the laws ordained in it.

Some argue that because the Torah was changed then God sent the Injeel. And then the Injeel was changed then thats the reason for the Quran. And God has protected it. And the justifications for this is that the Quran confirms that people tampered and changed the Torah and Bible.

However I incline to your views of the interpretations is because I do believe that just because people don't use what was given to them doesn't mean that they are no longer available by some others. And because of verses (5:42-48)

Does not the God mention somewhere in the Quran that his words are never lost or changed? I tried to search before but maybe I could be mistaken.

The only thing that I question out of good faith is verse 7:157 and 7:158. It seems like it is asking the Jews and Christians to follow Prophet Muhammad with the light(Quran) which was sent to him.

7:157.....(part)and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper."
7:158 Say: "O men(mankind)! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah...

Also isn't studying another book for religious guidance and law rebuked by the Quran, or is that just to the people or nation of the Prophet?

68:36-38
What is [the matter] with you? How do you judge?
Or do you have a scripture in which you learn
That indeed for you is whatever you choose?



The above verse is probably not relating to previous nations with scriptures as they did have scriptures but the rebuttal to that would be they no longer have them?



Also I am inclined to believe that the Quran is reminding the Children of Israel to fulfil the covenant they had. 2:40

I do recall that they were told to hold fast to their Book. 2:63. would that meant forever?

Also 2:44 "Do you order righteousness of the people and forget yourselves while you recite the Scripture? Then will you not reason?"

If the above verse was a present tense in the time of the prophet Muhammad to the Jews then one is inclined to think that amongst the Jews are reciting the Torah and was available in a form God has deemed it allowable for guidance.

I'm just looking for truth Insha'Allah. I don't want it my way. I feel this is a serious topic.

The way I see it, there is 2 ways:

1. the Jews and Christians not follow the Quranic laws but to believe in that the Quran is the word of God and to follow the scriptures that came to them.
2. to believe that the Quranic law is for all.

In the event that (1) is wrong, then the consequence of believing in this way seems worse than than (2)



And thats why I would like to be certain and its not just a small matter to me. Because if the case of number (1) is true and absolute, we also have no say in the matter and this is what God has ordained. And this is what we should be preaching as well.

I have taken up much of your time lately with my questions in the past couple days. And I honestly only intend for the best and the truth and not to exhaust you but to help you(something which I might not be able to do but Insha'Allah). Only reply if you find it a topic that will benefit others and not only myself as there is other important things going on.

Peace be upon you

Quote from: Hamzeh on December 16, 2014, 06:20:13 PM
I have taken up much of your time lately with my questions in the past couple days. And I honestly only intend for the best and the truth and not to exhaust you but to help you(something which I might not be able to do but Insha'Allah). Only reply if you find it a topic that will benefit others and not only myself as there is other important things going on.

Peace be upon you

Peace be with you dear brother Hamzeh (not "upon you" - that's the salavat for prophets :) )
I feel the same way as you in that quote. I have also taken much time from brother Joseph lately, with many questions and discussions, and since we're not the only ones that need him, we show some patience until he is free and comfortable enough to answer us back :) in the meantime, sorry for 'interfering' in this post, since you were directed towards brother Joseph, but I thought one humble opinion more wouldn't hurt :)
First of all, I always try to apply brother Joseph's advice to take the verses within the context and to take all the verses that treat the matter, not to isolate just one (or two) of them. In surah Al Maideh, verse 44 becomes clearer if you see the verses 42 and 43 that also talk about jews of Madinah:
"[They are] avid listeners to falsehood, devourers of [what is] unlawful. So if they come to you, [O Muhammad], judge between them or turn away from them. And if you turn away from them - never will they harm you at all. And if you judge, judge between them with justice. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly."  As we know, the constitution of Madinah allowed all religious groups to follow their religion and their laws, for as long as they don't disturb public order and harmony. Jews were not exception .  But it was customary that almost all citizens used to come to prophet to ask his advice if they had any dispute, so God orders our prophet to judge between them with justice. Arguably, prophet would have used the laws of Allah(Quran) to judge any dispute. But jews often disagreed with his decisions.  The following verse 43 informs us that since the verdicts from Quran are being disputed, then he should judge between them from their own law, the Torah: "But how is it that they come to you for judgement while they have the Torah, in which is the judgment of Allah ? Then they turn away, [even] after that; but those are not [in fact] believers.". Then verse 44 clarifies that judging them with Torah doesn't mean that prophet was abandoning the laws of Allah: "Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah, and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers."
The moment a person converts to Islam, Quran is his religious law. Quran is the law that the believers will follow up until the Judgment Day. So, the jews and christians are required to accept Muhammad as a prophet (7:157-158). But the jews of Madinah had accepted our prophet as the leader/judge of Madinah, but not as a prophet of God, which means they were not muslims yet. So judging them with their own laws was in perfect harmony with the Quran (there is no compulsion on religion) and with the constitution of Madinah, that guaranteed religious freedom, peace harmony for all citizens of Madinah regardless of their beliefs. 
Hope I was of help inshallah,
Your sister Seraphina :)

Peace be with you too Dear sister Seraphina

Of course thank you very much for your input and your always welcome to give your opinion. May God bless you

Now don't you think that the religion of Moses and Jesus was Islam. Obviously it was :). What would be the difference in religion if all three Books were used. The Books of Moses, Jesus and Muhammad preached. It was just the laws and ways that were different. After reading one of Josephs articles and I agree with what he said that this was Gods will to have more than one way and law. see verse below

5:48 To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

Even if the Jews or the Christians always followed there law and path according to Gods Books that was revealed to them. Some how I think that the Quran would still be destined to be revealed to Muhammad no later no earlier.

Now I just want to list as many verses as I can that makes me think that:

1. The Torah and Bible seem to be deemed fit for guidance and law to there respective communities at the time of the prophet Muhammad.
2. That they are never told to follow the law of the Quran but to go back to their Law and start using it( The only verse that I can think of that brings tension to this concept is 7:157-158)
3. And believers are told to believe in the Torah and Bible( I somehow feel that God wants the Believers of the Quran to also believe that the Torah and Bible are still fit for guidance. And the truth and judgement from God are still available in them)

The list starts below and this is only what I can think of in little time

2:4-5 And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter. They are on (true) guidance, from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper.

2:40-41 O Children of Israel! call to mind the (special) favour which I bestowed upon you, and fulfil your covenant with Me as I fulfil My Covenant with you, and fear none but Me. And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.

2:44 Do ye enjoin right conduct on the people, and forget (To practise it) yourselves, and yet ye study the Scripture? Will ye not understand? (I'm assuming the scripture in that sentence above is referring to the Torah and was told to the children of Israel at the time of the prophet Muhammad.)

2:62 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

2:63 And remember We took your covenant and We raised above you (The towering height) of Mount (Sinai) : (Saying): "Hold firmly to what We have given you and bring (ever) to remembrance what is therein: Perchance ye may fear Allah."

2:89 And when there comes to them a Book from Allah, confirming what is with them,- although from of old they had prayed for victory against those without Faith,- when there comes to them that which they (should) have recognised, they refuse to believe in it but the curse of Allah is on those without Faith. (side note: can we be doing the same thing?)

2:91 When it is said to them, "Believe in what Allah Hath sent down, "they say, "We believe in what was sent down to us:" yet they reject all besides, even if it be Truth confirming what is with them. Say: "Why then have ye slain the prophets of Allah in times gone by, if ye did indeed believe?" (other translations seem to state; "while it is the truth confirming that which is with them")

2:106 None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things? (seems to me that God is saying NONE of his verses or revelations are abrogated or cause to be forgotten, but He brings better or similar)

2:285 The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His messengers. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His messengers." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."

above is just from Surah Al Bakarah

now going back to Surah Maida 5

5:43 But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.
( Seraphina it seems like to me that its awkward a persons(from the Jews) is coming to seek the truth and get judgement from prophet Muhammad when they have there own Book and law and they rejected theirs before. Why would you think they would accept the law of the Quran. For that instance God tells us they are not really people of Faith.)

5:46-47 And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah. Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel. (It seems like they are asked to Judge using only what God has revealed from the Injeel(Gospel) and not all the sayings of the Gospel)

5:68 Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord."


Does the Quran mention about people of the Book who written false information and took it as a Law? it seems yes

2:59 But the transgressors changed the word from that which had been given them; so We sent on the transgressors a plague from heaven, for that they infringed (Our command) repeatedly.

2:78-79 And among them are unlettered(ummiyuuna) ones who do not know the Scripture except in wishful thinking, but they are only assuming. So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.(ummiyuuna are possibly the ones who don't know the book of Moses and its they who possibly changed the words and written scriptures with their own hands and said this is from God. To make a profit.)

Also doesn't it make sense that the the believers( muslims ) are also able to eat from each others food, and marry from each other. If God did not recognize their ways any more then why allow all this. And a Qibla to each group


To also make something clear is that "yes" I do believe they should recognize the Quran as the word of God and the prophet Muhammad as a prophet. And not to disbelieve in this. Same way we are to them.

Now after saying this, either I'm way off and I am understanding everything wrong. Or a whole bunch of people are wrong. May GOD bless us all Insha'Allah

To sum everything up I still ask the same question pretty much as my first post. Do we tell Jews and Christians judge by what God has given to them, or is there something wrong with my thinking? And i'm missing important information?

Im sorry for the lengthy post


Peace be with you  :)

May peace and God's blessings be with you too, dear brother Hamzeh,
To be honest, I'm having a tough day today and forgive me if you feel my answer doesn't match your posts. Maybe I should've answered later, but perhaps I won't be able, so here's a quick reply with some clarifying points from brother Joseph on People of the Book:

*The Quran asks the People of the Book to recognise that what has come to the final prophet is the truth which is confirming the truth which is also with them.
*God's message of truth has always been the same. Believe in One God of the Universe, believe in the unseen hereafter, associate no partners with God and to do righteous deeds.
*Verses dealing with fighting Christians and Jews deal with a specific people who broke treaties, committed evil etc. They cannot be applied to all Christians and Jews for all times.
*Non-Muslims are not always Kaafir (Disbelievers) and the Quran does not refer to Jews and Christians as disbelievers but as 'Ahl-e-Kitab' (People of the Book). Even idolaters are not necessarily 'Kaffirs'.
*Jews and Christians can be Muslims.
*There are also 'believers' amongst the People of the Book.
*The Quran does not demand the Jews and Christians to 'convert' or abandon their laws. Until the People of the Book are convinced of the veracity of the message of the Quran, the people of the Book must follow the laws of their own scriptures in truth as Muslims and God will judge them equitably. (Bolds and emphasises mine)
Your sister hopes she makes more sense now :)
God bless you!
(Source: brother Joseph's article "People of the book")

Dear brother Hamzeh and sister Seraphina,

Thank you both for your posts and comments.

Brother Hamzeh - You share:

"...The only verse that I can think of that brings tension to this concept is 7:157-158..."

Before I comment further, please find below a section in the article [1] below, where I have discussed these verses. Please let me know if you find the explanation addressing any tension that you may have perceived.

Regards,
Joseph

Quote(20)    FOLLOWING THE FINAL MESSENGER FOR THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK

007.157
"Those who follow the messenger (Arabic: Tabiuna RasulAllah), the gentile prophet (Arabic: Nabiya Ummiya), whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the Torah and the Gospel;- for he commands them to what is right and forbids from what is wrong (Arabic: munkar); he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure) (Arabic: Khabaitha); He relieves from them their burdens and from the fetters which were upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper."

At no point does the verse above state that those that follow the previous scriptures should abandon the judgment or laws given by their own scriptures. The verse itself expounds the context. The Prophet clearly is being informed as one who forbids them of what is wrong or disliked (Arabic: munkar) and makes lawful for them that which is right. This cannot be a reference to the Jewish commandments as it is unacceptable from a Quran's position to assert that the Biblical commandments were either wrong (Arabic: munkar), bad or impure (Arabic: Khabitha), especially when verses 5:43-47 clearly indicate otherwise.

The burdens and fetters could thus possibly be a reference to the self-imposed extra Biblical traditions, incorrect practices or difficulties of the People of the Book, prevalent with those in the vicinity of the Prophet. Those that followed the messenger, believed him, honoured him and listened to his advice and calling would have had these difficulties removed.

Furthermore, all prophets of the past undertook a covenant with their communities that if a messenger were to come within their midst, they would be expected to render him aid and assistance. This would be no different for the monotheists of the People of the Book that came into contact with the ministry of the Arabian Prophet (Muhammad). They would be expected to do the same.

Any messenger would confirm the existing scriptures (despite the differences in law 5:48) and this is what the Quran repeatedly does.  Therefore, verse 7:157 can also be argued to serve as a reminder to the previous monotheistic communities of the covenant already taken with them as a people (3:81).

003.081
"And when God took a covenant* the prophets: Certainly what I have given you of the Book and wisdom, then a messenger (Arabic: rasulun) comes to you confirming that which is with you, you must believe in him, and you must help (Arabic: walatansurunnahu) him. He said: Do you affirm and accept My Covenant in this (matter)? They said: We do affirm. He said: Then bear witness, and I (too) am of the bearers of witness with you"

* Please see related article [2] below.

007.158
"Say: "O mankind! I am sent to you all (Arabic: Jami'an), as the Messenger of God, to Whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no God but He: it is He That gives both life and death. So believe in God and His Messenger, the gentile Prophet, who believes in God and His words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided."

REFERENCES:

[1] PEOPLE OF THE BOOK (JEWS & CHRISTIANS)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/people%20of%20the%20book%20FM3.htm
[2] IS VERSE 3:81 A REFERENCE TO ANY PARTICULAR MESSENGER?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/3-81%20FM3.htm

Asalamu Alykum Brother Joseph Islam

Its strange how I read your article as though it was a long time ago but I kept somethings in mind and I missed that part. As I went over it again today I realized I have understood it better this time Alhamdulila.

One question, you state:

"The Quran does not demand the Jews and Christians to 'convert' or abandon their laws. Until the People of the Book are convinced of the veracity of the message of the Quran, the people of the Book must follow the laws of their own scriptures in truth as Muslims and God will judge them equitably."

But would that not go against the following: Is the verses below asking them to use their scriptures they are given or any scripture from God or by choice any scripture?

005:044
and sell not my verses (Arabic: Ayati) for a miserable price. If any fails to judge by (the light of) what God has revealed, they are Unbelievers (Arabic: Kaffiruna) .
005:045
But who forgoes it (in the way of charity) it shall be expiation for him. Who  judges NOT by that which God has revealed: such are wrong-doers. (Arabic: Zalimuna) "

005.047
"Let the people of the Gospel judge by what God has revealed in it. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God has revealed, they are those who rebel (Arabic: Fasiquna)."

Seems like the above verse God is asking to Judge by the Gospel for the people of the Gospel.

Would the statement "IF ANY FAIL TO JUDGE BY WHAT GOD HAS REVEALED..." is that any scripture of the 3. Torah, Bible, or Quran?

Dear Hamzeh,

Wa alaikum assalam

Without intending to become overly complex in providing you with a humble response, it should be noted, that the main thrust of theses verses that you share is to emphasise that there was an expectation for the Christian and Jews at the time of the Prophetic ministry, to follow their Scriptures sent by God with sincerity, faithfulness and in truth.

They were expected to be judged by the laws in these Scriptures.  After all, all such Divinely inspired teachings are ultimately from Him.

However, in my humble opinion, it can be safely posited that from a Quran's perspective at least, there is no 'explicit' requirement for those of the people of the Book that follow their revelations correctly and in truth, to simply abandon them. For example, the Jews are not expected to abandon their laws, such as keeping the Sabbath or any other religious observances. However, they are expected to accept the veracity of the Quran as a revelation from God once the truth of it has been completely manifested to them. This remains key.

Whether today's Jews and Christians with their numerous sects are following their Books justly, or in truth, is a totally different matter and would require a very detailed discussion which is outside the scope of this response.

For example, was it ever the intention of the Gospels to remove Mosaic laws such as the keeping of the Sabbath or abstinence from consuming swine flesh or was its intention to keep to the laws strictly? (5:46) What are the justifications given by certain Christians to abandon those laws and are such justifications correct / cogent? (etc)

The Quran also challenges errant theologies, but at the same stroke refers the People of the Book back to their Books. This somewhat  implies that these errant theologies (such as the alleged relationship of prophet Jesus and God) are not necessarily sourced / supported by these Scriptures and are 'arguably' errant beliefs which are read into the scriptures without warrant.

As you can see, this will become a very complicated matter requiring detailed scrutiny and discussion. However, the emphasis to keep to their scriptures in truth remains imperative, regardless.

As far as your question regarding 'conversion' is concerned; if one prefers to follow Islam underpinned by the Quranic way of life as a righteous, committed believer, then this should not necessarily be seen as a contradiction of verses 5:44-47. It can be posited as an option though not an 'expectation' as is usually the belief of the traditional masses. That I feel, is the difference.

I hope that clarifies, God willing
Joseph

Salamu Alykum Br. Joseph

I thank you very much for your informative response. I agree with your views.

Peace

How could Quran have been sent for all mankind  since a lot of people died before Quran was revealed?

Shalom / peace Donald ......it means that it sent as a guidance for those of mankind that came after the Quran was revealed.....i think you are placing unnecessary emphasis on 'all'. I think it is common sense to understand it that way.

Joseph Islam teaches here that 90% of muslims are  wrong so common sense is not so common. No matter how you are suppoused to understand it this is a false statment.

Shalom / peace Donald....I hope you are not trolling or being intentionally slanderous.......where does brother joseph teach that 90% of muslims are wrong??? ...

I am not trolling  I read it in an article I am sorry I can't remember where

Well then....if you can't back it up with evidence...why say so and so said this ..simply on what you think someone has said....can you please provide evidence in future or i fear you will be seen as trolling....

Selam alaikum,
Reading the last posts I am a bit frustrated and a bit sad. Brother Donald, why are you so harsh? Maybe you're not aware of this, but you sound very severe in your posts. Be careful when you talk about brother Joseph, for many reasons, but first of all, because you're wrong in what you state about him. Muslims in general had all the answers in their buffet, in a book they keep covered in fine cloth. That book was meant to be our religious guidance and our main source of laws. Everything else outside this book, every attempt to interpret a verse of this book is simply an opinion or an hypothesis, which comes from a fallible source - human mind. This is what brother Joseph is talking about: respect the opinions of scholars and study the Quran for yourself, but be aware that their opinions and your conclusions can't equal the Quran, especially if the Quran contradicts that opinion/conclusion. Many muslims are aware of this, I guarantee you (it's more common sense that you think), but they were meant to believe that onlly scholars or mullahs can understand the Quran, only they can reach conclusions, and only what they say has to be applied. Even if it sounds unquranic, nevermind, they are more learned than you, they know what they're doing, so you do as they say. Not just me, but I guess most of members of this forum at first had difficulties to accept that Bukhari≠Muhammad and Hadith≠Quran. Many muslims have the 'common sense' I'm talking about, but they have difficulties to denounce it, because they can be persecuted or killed.
I have read probably 99% of brother Joseph's articles, and nowhere does he make such statements that 'x is wrong' or 'y is right'. He simply analyses popular beliefs and practices and searches for a Quranic base of them. If there's no Quranic base, then it can't be something our prophet preached, or God declared. Simple as that. It's not brother Joseph that says this, it's Al Furqan that says it.
Besides, are you sure you have known God enough to question his justice and mercy, and the reasons he has to punish or reward someone? Are you sure you have known God (his feelings, his personality, etc) good enough to doubt his justice and mercy? Because i think you didn't. As an albanian saying goes "you know 1 thing bout you don't know 10 others".
Selam.

I am sorry if I sound severe I tend to keep it simple and clear. Yes  maybe I am wrong about him he may have not said what I think I have read in one of his articles I think it was about muslims idolizing Mohamed and how 90% of muslims who did that were wrong to do so I am not sure.I  am sorry I don't mean to be harsh saying this but what is the value of your religious guidance? Has it guided muslims better than other books guided people of other faiths? Has it made muslim countries better than  than other countries? Has  it made muslim better people than non muslims? You say only individuals themselves can reach conclusions about the Quran  then why do you rely on Joseph Islam's interpretation so much?  Cause it makes sense to you personally? 72 virgins make sense to a scuicide  bomber getting ready to kill innocent people but that doesn't mean he is right. Just because it looks like it makes sense doesn't mean it is right. You ask if I  have known God to  question his mercy? I don't know God I know his creation .In God's creation everything tries to kill tear eat one another causing unbelievable  pain and suffering.This is how God chosed   to make his creation.  Looking at this reality what could possible make you believe God has mercy? The answer is simple cause that is what makes you feel good most of people will believe and do  what makes them feel good instead of what has proven in practice to be good  and useful. Islam has not proven to be good and useful for humanity cause it does not make people better happier and  with a higher quality of life in any way.The greatest teacher is reality reality will always show you the truth instead of what makes you feel good.You should learn from this teacher its not flawed like human teachers  or confusing like religious guides

Please Donald one question at a time. One thing at a time. Your questions are a bit deep, so can't be answered in a second. First of all, the creation of God was not created to cause harm and spread mischief on land. The creation of God was meant to enjoy eternal hapiness, and they did for a while. It was when they revolted against God that they brought disgraces you mentioned. What you don't understand is that human being was not created in a robot-like manner. We were given the freedom of choice, the free will. The free will if used correctly would mean happiness, if used wrongly would mean disgrace. Have you ever brought a new tv, or a household machine? Ever noticed that the creator of it placed the manual with using instructions together with it inside the box? Why would he do it? It's because he knows best how he made it, so he knows what's the best way to use it. If you follow the instructions of that manual, the machine will benefit you greatly, if not, it will take you longer to get used to it and there is a risk you will accidentaly ruin it, and your whole family will be affected from it.
The same goes for our free will and the way we use it. God gave it to us to use it in our benefit, not in our harm. It was not God's guidance that brought disgrace to mankind, it was the abandonment of God's guidance that brought all of the disgraces. The kingdom of Israel in times of David and Solomon, for example, people rejoiced and enjoyed great benefit from their work, because in those times they were upholding the guidance of God in Torah and Zabur. Only when they left it and started spreading mischief on land the disgraces befell them. Same with muslims-so long as Quran was their constitution and was applied correctly, they enjoyed same as jews in time of David and Solomon-the whole world is familiar with the science, medicine and overall progress in every aspect of life in those times. For instance, I remember attending a class about Omar ibn Khatab (I guess we all know him) and during his ruling (similarily of the rest 3 righteous chalifas) not a single murder, not a single rape, not a single robbery was reported in the whole country. That's what it means to uphold God's law correctly-there is security and peace for all. It was only hundreds of years later when they started abandoning God's law and upholding man-made laws that they gradually came in the state they are today. Don't blame God and don't blame his guidance for the disgraces that humanity suffers, because:"Whatever good reaches you is from God, and whatever evil befalls you is from yourself." (Nisa, 79).
Last but not least, don't say about me what you don't know. I do not read only brother Joseph's studies. Believe it or not, I have read tafsirs and studies from many other scholars, and I have also studied jewish tanakh and christian doctrines. Focusing on islamic studies, you're right, I rely mostly on brother Joseph's works because he: 1.uses Quran to interpret Quran, 2.when asked a question answers with quranic evidence, and 3.doesn't use sources outside quran unless they're well documented. Hope it satisfies your curiosity.
Sorry if I made it too long, I expect to hear from others as well do they agree with me or not.

I am confused here was Gods creation (man) created to be tested or to enjoy eternal happines? Cause they are not the same. The creation of God is all made to cause suffering to each other I am not just talking for humans here. Have you not seen how the animals in nature are so cruel and cause so much pain to each other because they have no other choice ? Why would a merciful God create nature to be this way?
Whats the benefits of instructions if  people are going to interpret them in so many different ways?

The success of the  leaders you mention cannot be attributed to specific ideologies but to the leaders themselves.Great leaders make their countries great and the success of these countries is always credited to their leaders. And Omar was a great leader  one of the greatest http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umar  who has ever lived I think but not a righteous  caliph according to modern standarts cause he was an imperialist he expanded his caliphate with war and I don't think that " not a single murder or rape was reported" is an historical fact.Also there were a great famine and a great plague during his regime too so I guess Allah was not as pleased with him as you are.

1.Why don't you think it is a historic fact? Because you have evidence for it, or because it doesn't fit with what you want to believe?
2.Famins and plagues were frequent in ancient times. There was a famine in Egypt in the time of prophet Joseph for example. But Joseph, under God's instructions, was able to save people from it. Well, Omar was not a prophet, but his personality and intellegence were useful in showing us how to apply quranic guidance in times of calamities.
3."Seems Allah was not pleased with him as you are"?! Honestly, you're ridiculos. Thank God He has given us answers in Quran. Check Quran 48:29.
Your sarcasm and arrogance throughout your posts is beginning to get me tired, seriously. If you have come to study and gain knowledge, great, but if you've come here to troll us and treat us with arrogant speach, then until you improve your self expression I won't respond anymore.
Selam

1.Its not an historical fact cause there is no evidence for it.Besides this caliph has I mentioned before expanded his caliphate with war so he could have not been  a righteous caliph.
2.The point I  was trying to make is why would Allah send  famine and plauges to a caliphate with righteous muslims and caliph
3.Maybe I am ridiculos but  I certanly am not a troll.You said it yourself my questions are deep a troll wouldn't ask deep questions
I assure you that I did not mean to offend you in any way and I am sorry if I  was sarcastic and arrogant.
Selam :)

Salaam Donald,

I see that you are in deep engagement with the forum members. It does seem though that the feeling from some of them is that your style of expressing yourself is quite abrasive.

You have in fact apologised for that and I feel that members should accept it with the sincerity  in which you part it.

I understand your frustration when you question what benefit Islam brings when you see the state of many Muslims today.

However, Seraphina was trying to show you that man has free will and with that will he can do much evil. He is solely to blame for that, not God.

To elaborate further, there are a few articles that Joseph has written that you may wish to peruse, you can find the links to them below:

http://quransmessage.com/articles/suffering%20FM3.htm http://quransmessage.com/articles/tests%20FM3.htm

Dear brother Truthseeker, selam aleikoum,
You understood me correctly. But someone with many prejudices and no correct information wouldn't be able to. Yes, God gave mankind the free will to choose between his path or Satan's path, between good and evil. If God then would stop his choices or interfere in them, would it really be a free will? And the reason that the evil sometimes lasts longer and is not punished immediately is not because God lacks power or is slow, but because He is merciful, He gives a chance to get his message and repent even to his most disobedient creatures. Then if they continue up to the point when they have transgressed every limit, only then does he punish them. Take a look at Egypt's people and their king (for example), or people of Lot, or people of Hud and Saleh, and see what I mean. In the other hand, look at the case of Nineveh, Assyria, where Jonah was sent. You can check history for yourself, and the bible as well, they have been known as "the land washed in blood" which speaks volumes about their cruelty and transgression. But once they accepted the God's call and repented, God forgave them and refrained them from punishment.
But to understand this, and to understand why does He permitt some things, you need to get to know God better. And you can't know Him from people who keep themselves as his representers, just like you can't know a parent from his child: if your child would be a robber or a killer, would I be right if I asssumed you are as well, just because you are his parent? A parent can be the kindest person of the world, and yet his child can become perverted and corrupted, but the parent would never punish his child straightaway, without giving him a chance to repent and without talking to him. (Just an example for ilustration, otherwise we know human parent and God are not the same)
I hope I made my point clear brother Truthseeker, thanks again,
Your sister Seraphina

Selam Thank you for your understanding Truthseeker but my frustration comes  from the fact than  my points are not addressed .Seraphina  is trying to show me man has free will I understand that  but it is not what I asked. Here is one of my questions  in one my posts that was never  addressed "I don't know God I know his creation .In God's creation (animal kingdom) everything tries to kill tear eat one another causing unbelievable  pain and suffering.This is how God chosed   to make his creation.  Looking at this reality what could possible make you believe God has mercy?" If you see through my posts I never raised  questions about free will and evil.  I am curious to know your definition of evil Truthseeker. I assure whatever it is it is relative it changes from   one world to another  ( persecution of people  cause of their beliefs is evil in this world but divine justice in Afterlife) and whatever action you consider evil God does it.  See my post  "The basis of morality of islam" on general discussions  to understand better what I mean
Thanks  :)

Salaam Seraphina ,

I understand your position completely and really appreciate your input into the forum. I see from your posts how much time and effort you put in. May God bless your efforts.

Also, I just want to let everyone know that I am a female  :)

Salaam Donald,

In terms of your question regarding the animal kingdom, it comes down to relativity.
All living creatures on Earth will die, that is a fact.

Now if someone feels that dying is unfair or cruel, it is their personal perspective. From one person to the next, each will have their own barometer of what they feel is acceptable. So you may feel that in the animal kingdom is cruelty whereas someone else may think that the nature of the animal kingdom is such that in order to survive, they have to kill.

If you think about it, animals hunt for food (predators) they only do it for a need, not in excess.

On the other hand, humans eat meat for pleasure, not survival, as they can in fact lifelong healthy lives as vegetarians/vegans?

With regard to my perspective of evil. I will hopefully post my opinion soon.

Amin, may Gid bless you too, and sorry for naming you "brother"

Truthseeker I am afraid you have misunderstood   me.I do not think  animal's  death is cruel. Their life is.It is unnecessary  cruel since animals are not tested by God or anything.Nature is very cruel every animal's life is full of suffering and struggling for survival. Now I understand that when it comes to  cruelty and pain in humanity you can always blame man and his free will. But man is a very small part  of creation.You can't blame animals for the cruelty in their world  cause they don't know better  so it must  be God who willed them to be like that so  God cannot be merciful.That was my point .There is no reason to believe God is mericiful and compassionate if you look at all cretion you will understand that

Thank you for your patience in answering me   :)

Salaam Donald,

How do you know that animals are not tested by God? He tells us in the Quran that they are communities like us and they will be bought back to Him.

My personal view is that any accountability will be different because they are not vicergents as we are.

Also, I have made some comments on your post "The basis of morality in Islam".

Thanks

Truthseeker its kind of absurd  to think animals are tested they don't have any concepts of morality right and wrong or rules.
You are suggesting something that is not supported by any scriptures.
So since there is no basis in scriptures I am  think you just made this up cause you are unable to address the point i made

Salaam,

Why is it absurd? Obviously YOU haven't read from the scripture. I am talking about verse 6.38:

"And there is no creature on [or within] the Earth, or bird that flies with its wings except [that they are] communities like you. We have not neglected in their Register a thing. Then unto their Lord they will be gathered"

Number one, they are communities (ummah) like us. Which means a group of living things having certain characteristics and circumstances like us.

Number two, they will a have a record and will be gathered unto their Lord just like us.

My comment actually was supported by scripture. In my posts I make it clear when I have an opinion based from scripture and when I have a personal feeling.

Also as a moderator on this forum, I am respectfully asking you to be careful with your wording. I have noticed other members objecting to the way you say things as you seem to be offending others.

Regarding my post, all you had to do was ask me where in the scripture did I get this idea from? Instead, you made accusations against me, saying "is not supported by any scriptures" just because you think it's 'absurd'.

You seem to me from your posts to find things unfair and unjust, absurd even. May I suggest that if you haven't read the Quran recently, that you do so. That way you can get a better idea of what is scripture versus what is personal opinion.

Salam Truthseekers

You post this verse to support your argument "And there is no creature on [or within] the Earth, or bird that flies with its wings except [that they are] communities like you. We have not neglected in their Register a thing. Then unto their Lord they will be gathered"

I want to point out that this verse does not indicate they will be accountable for  their actions at no point it indicates they will be judged  rewarded or punished according to their deeds

But I am curious to know if you thought about this just recently or you have  heard about this theory before?

Salaam Donald,

You are the one who needs to prove what you say when you stated to me:

QuoteTruthseeker its kind of absurd  to think animals are tested they don't have any concepts of morality right and wrong or rules.

Where in the scriptures are you getting this notion from?

The verse I gave you mentions that ' We have not neglected in their Register a thing'

Now, according to you, animals are not accountable for anything, they have no concept of morality etc, so why is God going to waste His time by having a register/record for them and gathering them in front of Him?

If animals live and die on this Earth, have no purpose, have no accountability then why this verse?

I am making a point from scripture that is heavily indicating some sort of accountability for the animals yet you have no verse to show me your viewpoint.

So again I ask you to prove your statement :

Quotethey don't have any concepts of morality right and wrong or rules.

Truthseeker

Morality is a human concept I am not getting that from scriptures but from science http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_morality
Quran does  mention some talking ants "O ye ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under foot) without knowing it."
So he smiled, amused at her speech; and he said: "O my Lord! so order me that I may be grateful for Thy favours, which Thou has bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I may work the righteousness that will please Thee: And admit me, by They Grace to the ranks of Thy Righteous Servants."
-- Sura An-Naml [The Ant] (27):18-19" But  I find it highly unlikely  that God completely changed  the biological construct of ants just they could say that one line

Why is God wasting time  having a register for them? I don't know why did God wast time creating the universe in 7 "periods of time" when he could have created everything instantly ? Why did he waste time creating anything at all since he has no need for his creation? If you think about it everything God does is wasting time ultimately unnecessary  .
Quran states there are creatures that worship Allah  without their free willl Al-Ra'd (chapter 13, Verse 15): "Whatever beings there are in the heavens and the earth do prostrate themselves to Allah with goodwill or inspite of themselves: so do their shadows in the mornings and evenings." -  It would make sense that these would be animals

And still you have not provided me with a verse that says animals are held accountable for their deeds

I note that you are going off topic again and starting to moan about God, which is a regular occurrence for you on this forum.

I simply mentioned to you,'why is God going to waste His time by having a register/record for them and gathering them in front of Him?', to illustrate a point.

God is not bound by time or space. You should know that.

My point is that everything He does is for a purpose. So why have a record and a gathering for the animals if they are not accountable for anything?

Humans will have a record and will be gathered in front of God according to Quran. You should know why that is..it is for a purpose:
accountability

Now, I gave you a verse where it  talks about animals and birds having a record and being gathered in front of God. Using logic therefore it means some sort of accountability

QuoteAnd still you have not provided me with a verse that says animals are held accountable for their deeds

I am giving you a verse from the Quran. If you want God to spell it out for you then that's your issue.

You say:

QuoteI am not getting that from scriptures but from science

Let us stick to an equal platform.

You provide me proof from the Quran to support the views you have made on this thread:

QuoteIt is unnecessary cruel since animals are not tested by God or anything

Quotedon't have any concepts of morality right and wrong or rules

Selam sister Truthseeker,
I said I won't respond to Donald until he stops with this aggressive way of expressing himself. So, I'm directing this post towards you, since I see you have not yet given up. I envy you for being more patient than me. However, I think we are taking the wrong approach. We are treating the symptoms, not the cause.
There are some things about this guy that I don't understand, which would possibly reveal the underlying cause of his anger towards God. Here's what I'd ask him if I didn't promise not to talk to him until he minds his manners:
1.Why are you so furious at God? Is it because you suffered a tragedy or lost a loved one? What has He done to you to deserve your hatred? (Don't deny it, your posts speak volumes of it).
2.If the answer to question above is negative, then tell me, if He is so cruel and merciless, why hasn't He punished you yet for your arrogance? Since He is the same like Enver Hoxha, why doesn't He yet persecute you and execute you (or whatever) for your insults, like E.Hoxha would?
3.Who do you think you are to judge His creation, while you are part of that creation as well? Do you posses infinite knowledge and wisdom like Him? And regarding the science, human brain and animal brain are not yet entirely known from the science. To this day, studies and examinations are being done on this. And more than once it happened that science was wrong in its hypothesis. For example: the Geocentric system of Ptolemy(sun goes around earth) was held a "scientific fact" for centures, and one day it was proved to be wrong. Same with expansion of universe:for centuries it was a "scientific fact" that universe is static, until one day was discovered it was dynamic, constantly expanding. And the list goes on. What I'm trying to say is that science has not yet given us definitive answer in many areas. But the answers it has given us so far - not one of them has ever contradicted a Quranic statement, and we the believers know why :) but anyway, that's a separate subject.
May God give us patience with those who need our help but won't admitt it :)
Selam :)

Salaam Seraphina,

I admire and respect your stance regarding Donald. You have been dealing with him longer than I have after all  :)

Also I agree with the points that you make. Let us see whether he decides to come forward.

Truthseeker

Can you think of any purpose for God existence any purpose at all?

You can't

Yet you claim everything God does is for a purpose

An entity who has absolute power and absolute knowledge has no need to do anything at all. 

Therefore everything he does is without any  real purpose

The you say God is not bound  by tie and space.Where does Quran say that? And what does that even mean?
Do you know what not being bound by time and space means? From what scripture you are getting this from?

I already stated that  one of our basic information about animals is that they have no morality.
You ask what scripture am I getting this from? Well THE FACT THAT ANIMALS HAVE NO SCRIPTURES IS A BIG CLUE.
Besides you need everything you know about the universe to be confirmed by scriptures?

The sun  is bigger than earth. You wont  accept that fact till you find scriptures to confirm it?

Since

QuoteCan you think of any purpose for God existence any purpose at all?

You can't

Yet you claim everything God does is for a purpose

Of course I can yet I am not going to share it with you. If you cannot think of a reason well good luck to you.

QuoteBesides you need everything you know about the universe to be confirmed by scriptures?

That's a very defensive attitude Donald! You don't like it when people tell you things from the Quran do you? Are you deliberately being stupid?

To refresh everyone's memories,you asked me some specific religious questions, I then made some points to you from the Quran. You then demanded that I prove where in the scripture I got that idea from.Now that I am referencing the Quran you have an issue with that!

In my last post to you, I make a point that God is beyond time and space. You don't get it and demand I prove it again. Well I am not going to spoon feed you.

You said:

QuoteWhere does Quran say that? And what does that even mean?
Do you know what not being bound by time and space means? From what scripture you are getting this from?

You claim to have read the Quran. Why then don't you READ it and figure out for yourself where I am getting it from?

Truthseeker

You have to share you opinion on why God exists or we can't have a  discussion. And I can think of a reason why God exists but I will share it after you share your opinion When you say animals will be held accountable for their  actions  cause Allah will gather them like us you are making an assumtion that is not supported by scriptures. Maybe Allah has other plans for them  I don't claim to know what plans are those cause Quran does not elaborate on it

I do not have an issue with you refering the Quran  but you have to understand the verses you refer  do not support your  stance on this

So you are not gonna show me when Quran says God is beyond time and space? And you are not gonna show me where Quran explains what being beyond time and space means? Cause you don't want to spoon fed  me?
But you already  refered to particular verses of Quran once what does it cost you to do it again?

Dear Donald,

I can't help but notice how funny your post's are. You seem to be confused about many things at the same time you have developed a preconceived idea about God. Truth is, you will never fully understand the wisdom that comes with understanding how this reality works not just for us human beings, but also other creatures. As a matter of fact, non of us on this site can claim to know it all. What we know is from the Quran and experience, and what we do not know, God surely knows.

You  preach the word of morality and evidently you do not agree with what you see in the real world. Morality applies to Human beings. Morality is understood by human beings whether it comes from the scripture or not is a different matter.
Therefor we are in a position to make sure we do things right compared to other creatures on this earth.

If you have not already noticed, whatever we are able to perceive in this world works to the benefit of us humans. The movement of the celestial bodies, the natural occurring chemical reactions of  the elements, the duties of animals, insects, etc,
they all are submitting to God's commands ( laws in science and maths) in order for us to be able to live on earth.

For example, without flies, bees, ants etc, plants will not be able to produce the fruits/flowers.
this works to the benefit of us humans. That doesn't mean we can neglect the flora and fauna and reap its rewards. It means we need to take responsibility and take care of what has been entrusted to us.

You have to stop comparing yourself to an animal if you want to understand why morality is not applied to them. Animals have no sense of shame, they do not marry, they do not look for a good paying job. they are here to complete us and in return, we have to be kind and protective of them.

There is something you said that i have copied below:
Truthseeker I am afraid you have misunderstood   me.I do not think  animal's  death is cruel. Their life is.It is unnecessary  cruel since animals are not tested by God or anything.Nature is very cruel every animal's life is full of suffering and struggling for survival.


So an animal's death is not cruel, but it's life is?
If you think their life is cruel, what then for us? are human's not also suffering and struggling to survive? If animals are not tested then why do they exist? existing on earth is already some sort of a trial.If you don't think so, i suggest you think again when you are making a decision. I don't see corrupted animals ruling with an iron fist bombarding other animal kingdoms with nukes do i? At least animals are not lied to everyday by their own kind? and at least animals know their purpose here on earth. I seriously doubt you know yours to begin with.

Better not ask me how i know that animals know their purpose here on earth. you want proof study the animal kingdom. maybe you'll understand why they do what they do and not complain on this forum.

may peace be upon all of you brothers and sisters.

Salaam Adam

Thanks for your post. You are one of many here who have found Donald's posts to not make sense.

If a person is going to compare God's status with humans then their thought process will become flawed.