Topic split from original thread:
Wearing trouser/pants below ankle!
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1786.msg8397#msg8397
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Salam Sister How do you know that Qadada is not 19er? Why did he quote Rashad Khalifa's translation ? Let Bro Qadada answer.
Salam Sardar Miyan,
He probably didn't know it was the Khalifa translation. Or maybe he did, but either way, there's nothing really wrong with that translation. It's not necessary he's a 19er. He can't be one, since he seems to believe in hadiths.
Actually, we should just let him answer. :)
Bro Qadada please answer that you are not 19er.
Salam Bro Qadada Why are you not answering my question ? Do you believe in Rashad Khalifa's 19 miracle?
Salam Sardar Miyan,
I know this might be off topic but i have done a bit of research on code 19 and find it convincing, not that i believe that this miracle is there to remove two verses of Quran, but surely it has given me a lot of assurance that there is only one kind of wahy :) and that Quran is indeed the word of God, and a lot of problems are solved by this code like hafs and warsh recitations and is bismillah part of surah fateha or not.
Near me, to take this code as a something which can altogether remove 2 verses of the quran is a big no no! I know people can call me cherry picking and choosy about this code but that is okay. I think Quran is completely preserved by Allah and this code serves to give further assurance but maybe Allah put those two verses in the Quran as a test, so as to see how many people make this much far fetched and stretch it too wide.
Bro lt is not right to say that The Quran is further protected by discury of this code. Firstly the code is
not covering the Quran as it has seval defects. Secondly how was Quran preserved or protected all
these years? If Rashad Khalifa removes Two Ayaat he had committed great mistake as per which he is
out of Islam. His close associates say RK committed blunder. Please go through Bro Joseph Islam's article on Code 19 which will educate you of RK's blunder. Don't be mislead by this Code which will lead you to be a nonbeliever
Peace brother Sardar.
I cannot find "wearing trouser/pants below ankle" in Qoran. However I find " dress modestly " is in Qoran.
Now for code 19, I have been checking the numbers and I must be one of those "non-believers" as you put it.
Double check this ,regarding surah 9 verses 128 and 129:
Table below: The 19-based mathematical structure of the Qoran using the verses whose assigned numbers are a multiple of 128 or 129.
Sura (Chapter) ,no. of verses in the sura,No. of verses multiple of 128 or 129,Verse numbers multiple of 128 or 129 and Sum of verses multiple of 128 or 129
2- 286 verses, 4 verses: 128, 129, 256, 258 Totaling:771
3 -200 verses, 2 verses: 128, 129 257
4- 176 verses 2 verses: 128, 129 257
6- 165 verses, 2 verses 128, 129 257
7 -206 verses, 2 verses 128, 129 257
16- 128 verses 1 verse 128 128
20- 135 verses 2 verses 128, 129 257
26- 227 verses 2 verses 128, 129 257
37- 182 verses 2 verses 128, 129 257
19 verses Total 2698 (19x142) Equals to the no. of occurrences of the word God (Allah)
Some people rightfully question that if God's promise is true, then no one should have been able to add the two false verses into the Qoran in the first place. The addition of these false verses is in accordance with God's master plan. The people who had the Qoran with the additional two verses did not lose any information. The original Qoran is still preserved. The mathematical structure of the Qoran which was destined to be unveiled 1400 years after the Qoran's revelation proved the impossibility of such tampering, and exposed the hypocrites.
The example above of the mathematical structure of the Qoran based on the number 19 that relates to the false verses 128 and 129 of Sura 9 confirming that they do not belong to the Qoran:
1.There are only 9 suras (chapters) which have 128 or more verses.
2.In these 9 suras, there are only 19 verses which are a multiple of 128 or 129.
3.The sum of these 19 verses add up to 2698 (19 x 142).
4.The number 2698 is not an ordinary number. The Arabic word Allah (God) occurs in the Qoran 2698 times.
Not only do these facts based on the number 19 point to Sura 9, but they also demonstrate how inter-connected this mathematical system is throughout the Qoran. The fact that there are 19 such verses that are multiples of 128 or 129, and that their sum is equal to 2698, the number of times the word God (Allah) mentioned in the Qoran, cannot be a coincidence or a result of personal manipulation.
It should be noted that if these false verses 128 and 129 of Sura 9 are included, then there will be 21 verses which are a multiple of 128 or 129. The sum of those 21 verses would be equal to 2955, not a multiple of 19, nor a number of any significance. Thus the mathematical structure would breakdown.
Of course, this is a minute example of the numerous other physical and verifiable facts discovered in the Qoran based on the number 19. All these facts produce a mathematical system which is perfectly inter-twined and interlocked beyond co-incidence and human manufacture. This mathematical coding is referred in the Qoran to be "one of the great miracles or signs." It provides the first physical evidence that the Qoran is God's message to the world. This is a tremendous blessing for anybody who is seeking for truth to know that every single word in the Qoran (Arabic original) is a revelation from God Himself, the Almighty, the Most Wise.
Anyway, , it makes me "believe" in Qoran with certainty,not a "non-believer"?
Of course others disagree, but the numbers are there to be checked? There are too many coincidences ,for this code to be fabricated!!!!
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Salaam good logic,
The obvious response, for me, to all that you wrote, would be:
If we are to accept the argument that two false verses were added to the Quran, why then did God allow to happen?
To which you gave the following response/answer:
QuoteThe addition of these false verses is in accordance with God's master plan.
To which I would follow up by asking what proof, if any, do you have to back up that assertion (i.e. God allowed it to happen as part of His master plan)?
Salam :)
First of all, I am going to do something very hypocritical here. I am going to tell everyone to get back on topic. 19 codes have nothing to do with fashion.
(I said that for political correctness.)
Now I am going to go on discussing the 19 code. (Sorry.) Good Logic: Doesn't the Quran say that God would guard it? If He was guarding it, how did 2 verses somehow get added to it for 1400 years, and we didn't discover it until now?
You might say that the only Quran that is "guarded" is the one on divine tablets in the sky. However, the Quran says "we have sent down the Quran and indeed, We shall be its guardians."
So the Quran being referred to in this verse is the one that was sent down to humanity.
The 19 code makes some sense. I agree, there are too many coincidences for it to be fabricated, but calculations are not a method of verification of the Quran's authenticity. You can't just do calculations and declare verses to be false. You can seriously get in trouble for doing this. (With God, I mean.)
Plus, the 19 code has been debunked quite easily:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/19.htm
I must ask, what made you believe that running algorithms on a computer could determine which part of God's scripture was supposedly "false"? It just doesn't add up--literally.
And yes, some parts of the 19 code are impressive, but you are taking it too far. The Quran might have some type of numerical structure, but it doesn't warrant taking verses out.
I don't mean to incite arguments, and I don't completely disagree with the 19 miracle. I just want to make things clear--we don't take things out of the Quran without valid proof. Period.
Mariyah
Peace Hassan.
My answer to your question is simply this:
وَيَقولونَ لَولا أُنزِلَ عَلَيهِ ءايَةٌ مِن رَبِّهِ فَقُل إِنَّمَا الغَيبُ لِلَّهِ فَانتَظِروا إِنّى مَعَكُم مِنَ المُنتَظِرينَ
[Qoran 10:20] They say, "How come no sign/ miracle came down to him from his Lord?" Say, "The future belongs to God; so wait, and I am waiting along with you."
So the future is now, Technology+ Science +Mathematics is ready to check GOD s message.
GOD tells us that the "book" of Moses also had a code , i.e a proof that it was from GOD:
46:10
قُل أَرَءَيتُم إِن كانَ مِن عِندِ اللَّهِ وَكَفَرتُم بِهِ وَشَهِدَ شاهِدٌ مِن بَنى إِسرٰءيلَ عَلىٰ مِثلِهِ فَـٔامَنَ وَاستَكبَرتُم إِنَّ اللَّهَ لا يَهدِى القَومَ الظّٰلِمينَ
Peace Mia.
Thank you for your post.
I have read your link. Debunked? Read it again ,where is the "debunking"? If that link provides you with evidence,I must be blind to it?
GOD bless you both.
Peace.
Salam,
Sorry, wrong link. Here's the actual debunking one:
https://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Miracle_of_19
By the way, I'm really sorry if this is against forum rules! WikiIslam seems anti-Islamic, but the rest of the "debunking" sites were either too long or required a download. I absolutely do not agree with the WikiIslamic sentiments, but this specific article does debunk the 19 code pretty well.
Also, you didn't answer my question. Where did you get the idea that you can simply take away Quranic verses because of this code?
(In case you don't want to open the article I mentioned above, just look at the conclusion for a sec:)
This "miracle" of 19 is not a miracle. The actual chance of finding this 'miracle' is 1 in 19 which is not an impressive probability at all.
Equal number of miracles, sometimes more are found in anti-Islamic texts.
Where the Qur'an says, "over it are Nineteen," it was simply talking about the number of angels in Hell. This is also confirmed by Muslim websites.[3] Even Rashad Khalifa, the inventor of 19 'miracles' believes that 19 is the number of Angels in heaven (for him, he sees it as a 'miracle' that everything is 19)
Rashad Khalifa changed or 'corrupted' the Qur'an to highlight the 'miracles' of 19.
This is really all you need to see.
Mariyah
Also, Hassan, you said you were going to comment on #2 after gathering your thoughts :)
Ok. Regarding trouser/pants below or above ankle, I have just found real history behind it. Dont know whether it is true or false as it came from hadith. But it seems logical to me.
Folding up the leg-ware is related to a particular form of dress called the Tehmad (loin cloth). In the times of the Prophet (sws), some people would wear it in a manner that a portion of it would drag behind them. Since this is an expression of arrogance and haughtiness, the Prophet (sws) forbade wearing it in this manner. This directive to fold up leg-ware is therefore not related to forms of dress which are not worn in this manner or this purpose, for example pants, trousers or shalwars.
Also, even in case a person is wearing a Tehmad and his intentions are not to express such arrogance, exceptions can be given -- as is narrated in the following Hadith:
The Prophet is reported to have said: A person who makes his cloth to dangle after him will not be looked at by the Almighty on the Day of Judgement. At this Abu Bakr said: A portion of my cloth drags on the ground unless I am very careful about it. At this the Prophet replied: You do not do it out of arrogance [so your matter is different]. (Bukhari, Kitabu'l-Libas)
It is imperative that a the basis as well as the nature of a directive mentioned in a Hadith be analyzed before following it. Arrogance and haughtiness are condemned by the Qur'an. So all their manifestations and symbols have been prohibited by the Prophet (sws).
Peace mia.
The simple answer for your question is verses 128 and 129 do not fit in the interlock system . The code locks every letter ,every word every verse and every surah without them two verses.
Also you quoted:
This "miracle" of 19 is not a miracle. The actual chance of finding this 'miracle' is 1 in 19 which is not an impressive probability at all.
Equal number of miracles, sometimes more are found in anti-Islamic texts.
May be you do not understand interlock, or probability?
Let me give you an example : Say I have some different coloured marbles in a bag ,5 yellow,4 green and 3 red.The probability of picking 1 red is 3 out of 12. But the probability of picking 2 reds( say with replacement) is 3/12 x 3/12 which is 9/144 and so on...
Now with the 19 code there are many outcomes.Even a minimum of 10 outcomes you get 1/19 x 1/19 x1/19....10 times i.e a number close to zero. An impossibility!!!
I get the feeling you have not looked at the facts or checked them?
Anyway that is your choice, but your new link is even worse at debunking the code that the last one.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Bro Goodlogic Please don't publicize Code 19 on this forum. Limit yourself to your own forum. Code 19
has made RK a non believer as he had removed the Two Ayaat from his Quran. Please read Bro Joseph
Islam's article on Code 19 & then talk.
Salam Good Logic,
Please see the below article:
http://www.quranicpath.com/finerpoints/19.html
Read it from top to bottom, please. It says EVERYTHING I need to say about this alleged miracle.
Especially read the part about pursuing Quranic ambiguities and how this act leads to the rejection of perfectly good verses. And read the interpretations of verses 74:31-31.
This next article is written by a highly annoying website called Answering Islam, but I think it refutes the theory quite well. (Again, if this is against forum policy, can you tell me?, because I don't want to get in trouble.)
http://answering-islam.org/authors/katz/rebuttals/taslaman/allahs_timing.html
Again, I certainly DO NOT ENDORSE Answering Islam, but when they write semi-decent articles that refute actual silliness, I think they're worth sharing.
I hope you'll keep an open mind about this. The Quranicpath article given above is really the best one I've found on this topic, because it goes into more technicalities than Joseph's. Please read it.
Mia
Salaam good logic,
First, apologies in advance to mia666 for failing to failing to heed her request that stick to the original topic of this post.
QuoteQuoteMy answer to your question is simply this:
وَيَقولونَ لَولا أُنزِلَ عَلَيهِ ءايَةٌ مِن رَبِّهِ فَقُل إِنَّمَا الغَيبُ لِلَّهِ فَانتَظِروا إِنّى مَعَكُم مِنَ المُنتَظِرينَ
[Qoran 10:20] They say, "How come no sign/ miracle came down to him from his Lord?" Say, "The future belongs to God; so wait, and I am waiting along with you."
So the future is now, Technology+ Science +Mathematics is ready to check GOD s message.
With all due respect, that verse fails to answer my previously asked questions: 1)Why Allah will allow this (i.e two wrongful verses to be added into the Quran), and 2) On what grounds can you assurt that this was part of God's master plan?
Furthermore, the pronoun
they (in the verse you cited) seems to be referring to both categories of deniers of the truth spoken of in the preceding passages (i.e the atheists or agnostics)
"who do not believe that they are destined to meet God", as well as those who, while believing in God,
"ascribe a share in His divinity" to all manner of imaginary intercessors or mediators.
With regards to the other verse which you've cited, how did you reach (from that verse) the conclusion that
GOD tells us that the "book" of Moses also had a code , i.e a proof that it was from GOD? That verse reads as follows:
"Say, "Have you considered: if the Qur'an was from Allah , and you disbelieved in it while a witness from the Children of Israel has testified to something similar and believed while you were arrogant... ?" Indeed, Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people." [Quran 46:10]
I see no mention of a
code in this verse.
Peace.
Peace Hassan.
Thank you for your post.
May be I should ask you a couple of questions then:
1-Why is the "Basmallah" missing from surah 9 ?
2- Do you believe Qoran is the word of GOD?How/ Why?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Peace Mia.
I read the links. Opinions but not convincing arguments, actually very weak. Somebody who has not got a clue about interlock and the role of "19" in Qoran.
You see sister,GOD has "locked "his words with this miracle.I ,for one ,no longer believe in Qoran simply by faith. I have solid proof that it is from the Lord of the universe. After years of checking and study, I am certain Qoran is "locked" by this code.The original copy brought by the prophet is sealed and delivered intact to all the generations.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Yes, the Quran is "locked" by that code--but only after you manipulate it to remove two verses.
I'm sorry, but if someone is removing verses from the Quran, they've got to be making a mistake. Many false prophets have existed. Please don't be misled by Rashad Khalifa.
I am also going to answer the questions you proposed for Brother Hassan.
1) "Why is Bismillah missing from Surah 9?"
How should I know, and why should the fact that "Bismillah" is missing mean this surah is manipulated? Allah advises us against perversely pursuing ambiguities like this one. And yet you continue to do so.
2) "Why do you believe the Quran is the word of God? How/why?"
I have been introduced to it since childhood. I never truly believed in it until my faith was shaken up and I started researching it. First of all, the arguments that it presents make perfect sense. In fact, most of the Quran's arguments are simply reiterating the highly obvious fact that most people tend to miss: God is here, He is infinitely good, and He wants us to listen to Him so we can be good too.
Second of all, there are many facts in the Quran regarding science that have turned out to be true. Although these facts are recognizably vague and can be reinterpreted to fit the times, and although I do not argue in favor of scouring scripture to find "scientific miracles", these facts have certainly strengthened my faith.
Third of all, as far as I can tell, everything in the Quran has turned out to be true and WILL turn out to be true. Even this whole 19-code fluff was predicted in Surah 74.
Fourth, the Quranic challenge still stands: Everyone who attempts to bring "a surah like it" always fails miserably and attracts a lot of mockery. Just look up "The True Furqan" book reviews on Amazon. They say it all.
And fifth: It just makes sense. I can see connections from the verses to things in my everyday life. I am sure you will agree that this book could not have been written by a human being. In addition to this, the Quran presents the most logically unbiased view of human nature, God's nature, and morality. There is no substitutional atonement or "original sin" or instances of God having children who die on the cross for no reason at all.
I'm sorry, but I don't need mathematical "codes" to see that the Quran is the obvious and most importantly, unadulterated word of God.
And please think about what you are saying. According to false prophet RK, the Quran, which Allah promised to guard, has been corrupted for 1400 years! This is a blatant lie.
Also, please note that I am removing the Answering Islam and WikiIslam links from above. These websites spread anti-Islamic sentiments and I think that the specific articles I cited have already served their purpose in this debate.
Mia
Oh, sorry--can't modify my previous posts. Perhaps one of the moderators can get rid of those links if they deem it necessary.
Salaam good logic
You asked
Quote1-Why is the "Basmallah" missing from surah 9 ?
I share mia666's answer when she said the following:
why should the fact that "Bismillah" is missing mean this surah is manipulated? Allah advises us against perversely pursuing ambiguities like this one. And yet you continue to do soYou also asked:
QuoteDo you believe Qoran is the word of GOD?How/ Why?
The Quran, in several verses, asks us to ponder over its message and perceive the truth of what it says. It is the truth of the Quran that is ultimately what should be used to convince someone; and it's that same truth which will convince one of its originality/authenticity. Furthermore, the Quran clearly makes the claim in several places that it is not the work of a man and in fact challenges those who do not accept its authenticity to produce something similar:
"And if you are in doubt regarding what we have sent down to our servant then come up with a sura like it and call upon your witnesses other than God if you are honest. Thus if you do not, and surely you cannot, then be mindful of the fire whose fuel are people and stones [which is] promised for disbelievers." [Quran 2:23]
Therefore, the Quran does not need mere humans or some code to vouch for its authenticity.
I also agree with what brother Jospeh Islam has said with regards to that Question:
https://m.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/217054775098324
https://m.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/216314685172333
Peace.
Asalamu Alykum
To add to the comments by brother Hassan and sister Mia:
Brother Good Logic from the position you take you are insisting that for the past 1400 years humanity has had the incorrect version of the Quran. Or at least for a very long time. Therefor God has failed in his promise of guarding the Quran in its complete pure version is what your saying.
(15:9)We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
Also you are avoiding the clear statements and prophecy of the Quran that should be more of a miracle than what your claiming. If the Quran did not rebuke such a code by telling us about the people who have a disease in their hearts who go on trying so hard to figure things out about unclear verses then you MIGHT have a point. Check the verses that talk about those people
(3:7)Yusuf Ali: He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
(74:30)"Over it are 19"
(74:31)And We have made the guardians of the Fire to be angels; and We have only made their number a trial for those who have rejected, so that those who were given the Scripture would understand, and those who have faith would be increased in faith, and so that those who have been given the Scripture and the believers do not have doubt, and so that those who have a sickness in their hearts and the rejecters would say: "What did God mean with an example such as this?" It is such that God misguides whom He wishes, and He guides whom He wishes. And none know your Lord's soldiers except Him; and it is but a reminder for human beings.
Do you not see a connection with all this?
How do you go on proving that the Quran is a book of God by a mathematical code to humanity. It is clearly the arguments that it presents that talk and resonate to all humanity, no matter their background.
Also Bro Hassan an article by Bro Joseph may be interesting to read [1] :)
It is the WHOLE Quran that will make the whole meaning consistent. By the meanings and concepts that are found in different verses where they are consistent and resemble each other. This cannot be achieved by a mathematical code unless the Quran authorized it, but it didn't. In fact it did the opposite.
(39:23)Allah has sent down the best statement, a Book (this Quran), its parts resembling each other in goodness and truth, oft-repeated. The skins of those who fear their Lord shiver from it (when they recite it or hear it). Then their skin and their heart soften to the remembrance of Allah. That is the guidance of Allah. He Guides therewith whom He pleases and whomever Allah sends astray, for him there is no guide.
Also the verse below says a lot indeed.
17:88 Say: "If the whole of mankind and Jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support.
Peace
[1]PRODUCE A SURAH LIKE IT - THE CHALLENGE OF THE QURAN
http://quransmessage.com/articles/produce%20a%20surah%20FM3.htm
Salam Everyone,
I am not for or against code 19. Let me state the pros and cons of this code based on my humble research.
Pros:
1. It leaves out all the doubts that this Book is from God almighty. Some may argue over mathematical structure based on 19 breaking down at some places, let it be! It has given me far more aaurance that this indeed can not be a coincidence and is not random.
2. Gives till date, the better translation of Surah Mudassir! It makes much more sense, especially verse 31. 19 number of angels have not removed doubts from the hearts of Christians and jews regarding this book and if this number of angels are to be revealed on the day of judgement, then there is no use, as everyone will be a believer on the day of judgement.
3. Hafs, warsh and various recitation problems is solved, as hafs is the only recitation on which this code is held.
4. The long held debate of whether "bismillah" is part of Surah Fateha or not, is resolved by this code. It is part of Surah Fateha!
5. Made me 100% sure that there is only one kind of scriptural Wahi, there is no wahi-e-khafi, this seriously challenges hadith peddlers.
6. Corrected a spelling mistake in Quran of the word "bastatan" as is found in today's circulation of printed quran. The oldest manuscript of Quran in topkapi also has the word "bastaatan" with "seen" instead of "swad".
Cons:
1. Removes two verses from the surah Tauba, which is very very confusing and fishy to me, which makes me believe that this code holds a "partial reality" not the ultimate truth in itself.
2. Makes people obsessed with this code, and instead of pondering over Quran's message, it makes them delve deeper into the mathematics and Gematircal values, most of the time.
Therefore, i would say this code gives me further assurance of Quran being the word of God, but still i consider the last two verses of ch. 9 to be a part of Quran. Call me being choosy and picky! it does not matter :)
Recently, i was thinking about all those who oppose this code 19, had the quran with us had not those 2 verses in it, all their arguments would have in turn be made for the favor of this code. Just a thought!
Peace Hassan.
When you say:
I share mia666's answer when she said the following: why should the fact that "Bismillah" is missing mean this surah is manipulated? Allah advises us against perversely pursuing ambiguities like this one. And yet you continue to do so
Do you mean we should not ask why? It is very logical and honest to ask why? Qoran advises us to use our ears eyes and brain and not to accept any information unless we have checked/studied it!!!
Brother Hamzah, with all due respect, interlock is a miracle ,when one checks how GOD s words are locked with this system, it becomes apparent to them that no man can create such text that can also have meaning ,guides ,gives instructions, tells a story ...etc Every letter every word every verse every surah is locked by the code . No one can even change a letter. " Inna Alaina Jamahu wa Qoraanahu". Indeed GOD has collected it together and "numbered" it ( even though the number system did not come in till later on) . GOD is overseeing it throughout its journey through the generations.
As for 1400 years with 128 and 129 of surah 9, there were also 1400 years with hafs,warsh, different spellings...etc. GOD clearly knows each generation and how they are progressing. The time for the code to be revealed is at this computer stage of humans.
Anyway, the argument that people get obsessed by numbers is very weak and an excuse. Of course the message is the most important thing in Qoran. Living by Qoran is the aim not numbers. However the proof that it is from GOD makes one reverence GOD more and believe every word in Qoran.
Also people have the choice. But personally I cannot find any reason why one would reject the 19 code facts when checked and confirmed?
GOD bless.
Peace.
Dear Good Logic,
Good Logic! :)
Asalamu Alykum
Dear Bro Good Logic
No one is denying that this number system is not intended to be their or that it does not fit. This is obviously from God, He knew what he was doing. And it may possibly work that the two verses are not a multiple of 19 like the rest of them.
The fact that two verses are to be omitted from the Quran is the test of to see if people actually believe that God has preserved this Quran or not?
Also God has not permitted people to go and try to find the hidden meanings that have no value in belief. God wants people to understand the clear meaning that to put trust in God's words and not demand a mathematical code or a number system or sign that this book is from God. It already is proved to humanity their own conscience.
Like I said before, IF GOD never warned about this, then I would be arguing with you, but the fact God has condemned pursuing the hidden meanings, which also lead to the removal of two verses, this becomes the problem.
Also regarding haf and warsh, this does not mean that God has failed in his promise to protect the Quran. Anyone today can simply omit verses or read them certain way or re-write the Quran differently and say this is the real one. This does not in fact mean that God has failed in protecting it. As a human who is asked to take the best of life and also this is inspired in a soul, one would realize that a book that is being recited by over 90% of muslims and non muslims the same way would amount to being the book that is intended of being spoken of. That would be the book that is protected. Not the one that is hidden somewhere or not recited by at least 80% or 90% of the world if not more.
If the numbers where like 55% vs 45% or even 40% vs 60% then one would argue its not so clear.
I hope you see what we are saying.
May peace be with you
Salaam good logic,
QuoteDo you mean we should not ask why? It is very logical and honest to ask why? Qoran advises us to use our ears eyes and brain and not to accept any information unless we have checked/studied it!!!
It is one thing to ask questions and use ones God-given brain (logic/reason). But it is another thing to delve too much into ambiguous verse/s and draw from them far-fetched conclusions, which are further supported by more ambiguous verse/es.
Dear Hamzeh & Hasan, There no need to discuss or analyse Code 19. Rashad Khalifa has not present the Code 19 but it was already known to western people. Rashad Khalifa's main goal was to present himself as Messenger. Wherever there is word Khalifa was there in the he added his name as messenger. How can a person be a messenger who married a Christian lady and apply for US Visa and
settles by not paying back the loan taken from Eyptian Govt. He studied one subject but told people
another one. He prosecuted for raping a girl in Tuscan Arizona. Go to Google you can find every thing.
Salam Sardar,
It is allowable to marry a Christian lady under Quranic law. It is allowable to apply for a visa. You're conducting ad hom on RK. Our purpose in this debate is to judge his arguments and theories, not his persona.
Good Logic, you have not answered our specific questions or adequately shown why you believe this "interlock" is a miracle for verification of the Quran.
Mia
Apart from I am talking about RK's claim of meesengership which has to be judge from his character. I
don't know you people know his claim of being Messenger? And what was his character ?
Peace Hamzeh.
You say,quote:
Also regarding haf and warsh, this does not mean that God has failed in his promise to protect the Quran. Anyone today can simply omit verses or read them certain way or re-write the Quran differently and say this is the real one. This does not in fact mean that God has failed in protecting it.
They may omit verses or...But they will not succeed in saying it is the real one,why? And how is it protected?
While I agree any human written books, including the Mus-hafs are liable to human errors. The oldest copy of the Quran showed such errors as well as the new editions. God promised to preserve and protect the Qoran.
To prove His promise to us, God revealed to us the Mathematical Miracle of the Qoran that proved the authenticity of the Qoran and exposed the human errors in these Mus-hafs.
We are now responsible for using all the tools that God gave us to verify any written manuscript of the Qoran including the Mathematical Miracle of the Qoran claimed by others.
Brother Hassan, with all due respect, your argument about not asking questions about certain verses or why a basmallah is missing is very weak. One can use it( your argument) to justify any difficulty they have with verses!
GOD said we made Qoran easy to understand?
Sister Mia, you need to check interlock yourself. I am sure you know where to find the link/instruction,but you need to use a copy of the Qoran and verify for yourself, if you choose to.This is the only way your question/s can be answered.
GOD bless .
Peace.
Asalamu Alykum Good Logic
you said
QuoteThey may omit verses or...But they will not succeed in saying it is the real one,why? And how is it protected?
What your saying Good Logic is that for the past 1400 years before the code was supposedly discovered that humans do not have the right Quran because most of them 95% of the Muslim world had the Hafs version. And NO one had the version which Rashid Khalifa had which are the ones with the 2 verses omitted. Which in other words would result in God has failed in His promise for a very long time.
When God tells us 15:9 "...We will assuredly guard it" that means He guards it from corruption from the time it was transmitted till the end of times.
The protected Quran has always been available and will always be available. This is something Muslims believe. They have faith in this because they believe in the Quran and its testimony.
QuoteWhile I agree any human written books, including the Mus-hafs are liable to human errors. The oldest copy of the Quran showed such errors as well as the new editions. God promised to preserve and protect the Qoran.
This again does not result to God failing in His promise. The Quran that was revealed to Prophet Muhammad was still being recited by the Muslim world at least 95% so anyone who was reciting the warsh which would of consisted of 5% of the Muslim world then they would of had to think about it and ask why are we using this version. Although there is no difference in meaning. There is no isolated verses or words. But when a person wants to see how a Book is protected it should be viewed by the majority or the world.
QuoteTo prove His promise to us, God revealed to us the Mathematical Miracle of the Qoran that proved the authenticity of the Qoran and exposed the human errors in these Mus-hafs.
We are now responsible for using all the tools that God gave us to verify any written manuscript of the Qoran including the Mathematical Miracle of the Qoran claimed by others.
Brother, you seem to avoid the clear verses of the Quran and are not taking heed of the statements made from God about those who seek this parable about the number 19, and it has only been made as a
trial. Thats it. And its those who's hearts is a disease who pursue it.
(3:7)Yusuf Ali: He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical.
But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
(74:30)"Over it are
19"
(74:31)And We have made the guardians of the Fire to be angels; and We have
only made their number a trial for those who have rejected, so that those who were given the Scripture would understand, and those who have faith would be increased in faith, and so that those who have been given the Scripture and the believers do not have doubt,
and so that those who have a sickness in their hearts and the rejecters would say: "What did God mean with an example such as this?" It is such that God misguides whom He wishes, and He guides whom He wishes. And none know your Lord's soldiers except Him; and it is but a reminder for human beings.
Please think about this
Peace
Salaam good logic,
You asked:
QuoteAnd how is it protected?
God simply tells us that He will safeguard it, and nothing more. To read too much into that statement and proclaim that some code is how it is safeguarded when God has give no further indication to its protection is unwarranted. God neither runs out of words nor does he forget, so if He wanted He could have conveyed to us the method used for safeguarding it, but He did. So.....
You also said:
Quoteyour argument about not asking questions about certain verses or why a basmallah is missing is very weak.
I never said one cannot ask question. I was simply cautioning against delving too much into ambiguous verse/s and draw from them far-fetched conclusions, which are further supported by more ambiguous verse/es; which is how the argument for said code is presented.
If you don't mind I would like to post several question to you with regards to the two verses (9:128-129) which you and those adhering to the 19 code claim have been wrongly interjected into the Quran. And I would greatly appreciate it if you could answer them:
1) When do you believe these verses were wrongly added?
2) Whom do you believe (could've) added these two verses?
3) What method was used in interjecting these verses into the Quran? In other words, did the supposed perpetrators go around interject these two verses into every Quran text that was in publication at that time?
4) What are (if any) the earliest sources you can cite me which give mention to this case/doings (i.e the adding of the two supposedly wrong verses)
5) And what are the earliest source/s you can cite me which object to this doing?
6) How has no-one (until recently) spotted these supposedly wrong verses? Are we to believe that Muslims have for a very long time (until recently) been reciting the Quran along with theses supposedly wrong verses?
7) Besides the main objection you (and those adherent to this view) have with regards to those two supposedly wrong verses (i.e. not in accordance with the code), do you have any other objection towards them?
Peace.
I said:
Quotebut He did
What I meant to say was "but He didn't".
Salam all,
I fully agree with everything Hassan A stated above. My arguments on this have been exhausted, but everyone else is free to add :)
Peace Hamzeh, Hassan mia.
First of all it is not about what we agree or disagree on.It is about the facts. The mathematical composition of Qoran is a fact. We can now, in this age, check GOD s word easily and distinguish between man s words and GOD s words . How?
Here is an example, Quote:
MATHEMATICALLY COMPOSED LITERATURE
Suppose you are asked to write a book with the stipulation that:
1. Chapter 3 is to contain exactly 532 of the letter `S'.
2. Chapter 8 is to contain exactly 209 B's, and 779 T's.
3. Chapter 6 is to contain exactly 133 of the letter combination `ING.'
4. And the total number of sentences must be exactly 57, 152.
You will then try to write this hypothetical book, carefully counting and keeping track of those letters and the number of sentences in order to conform with the specifications given to you. As you conform to these specifications, you must write down words and sentences that make sense and tell the reader something important having to do with the subject of your book. This is a simple example of mathematical composition.
Secondly, of course for the last 1400 years Muslims had all the Qoran plus the supplements of duas, hadiths, two extra verses..etc.
For me interlock rejects "man s words" whatever they were, are or will be. I do not need to look further.
As for your questions brother Hassan, my previous sentence answers them all in one go. However, the history of the two verses is also questionable, I will leave you to find out the following:
Why was there a civil war after the prophet s death?
Why was surah 9 "Madania" but the two verses " Meccan"? etc...
For me, all the parameters of the Qoran-the numbers and sequences of chapters; the number of verses; the numbers assigned to each verse; the number of words; the number of certain specified letters; the number of words from the same root; the number and variety of divine names; the absence of one or more letters from a word, verse or chapter; the unique and often strange spellings of certain crucial words; and many other elements-are all authenticated by its mathematical code.
Surah 9 ,128 and 129 are not. Others can leave them there if they choose. I accept ,according to my checking and study of interlock that they were a human addition.
Thirdly, let us take the initial surahs as example,it is easy to see that the substitution or removal of any word containing one of the initials in an initialed chapter would break the code in that chapter. As the initials become more complex, the difficulty of writing readable and meaningful sentences increases. In some cases the only way that the code could have been written into the Qoran was for the language to have been invented around it! Only the Lord of the universe could produce such a text and lock it mathematically.
Finally, I have solid proof that the Qoran I checked is the words of GOD. The scriptometer code is available for anyone to check GOD s words. We do not need faith or history or hadith or defected logic or... Mathematics, the universal language of all the humans can confirm that GOD has indeed spoken to us.
GOD bless you all.
Peace.
It was a libas related thread..... ???
Dear All,
Please see original thread comments. This topic has been split.
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1786.msg8867#msg8867
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