QM Forum
The Quran => Islamic Duties => Topic started by: afafaff on November 19, 2013, 03:48:05 AM
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Peace be upon you.
Do people not wonder if the ritualistic prayer actually works? Isn't it our actions which can get us the results? Maybe we have missunderstood the Quran. Please see this:
"http://www.ourbeacon.com/cgi-bin/bbs60x/webbbs_config.pl/page/1/md/read/id/314123119194643".
He explains the logic behind prayer and gives examples from the Quran against the ritualistic prayer. And he states: "to observe God’s laws is to call out to Him or pray to Him and to get good results means our prayers have been answered".
Here is intresting document against ritualistic prayer:
"http://www.scribd.com/doc/180909912/Salat-debunked-by-the-Tawrah-and-the-Qur%E2%80%99an".
What's your opinion? Do you agree or disagree?
Regards,
Haji
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Salam Bro Haji. When Allah asked us to pray indicating the timings in Quran why should we read about these junks. There is Joseph Islams Blog on Face Book. Please go through and read about Salat on quransmesage web site written by Bro Joseph Islam you will be enlightened. Thanks
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Salaam Haji,
The Our Beacon group have strange interpretations of the Holy Quran to such an extent where they have decided to declare the ritual prayer, fasting and Hajj as
unnecessary.
The evidence that they cite is so far fetched and frankly in my opinion an insult to the Quran and its glory
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Timings?
"Bear, then, with patience, all that they say, and celebrate the praises of thy Lord, before the rising of the sun and before (its) setting." (50:39, Yusuf Ali)
"Bear, then, with patience, all that they say". This sounds like someone tries to make a change but others oppose that. It doesn't look like that they are trying to mock the one who prays. In addition "before the rising of the sun and before (its) setting" sounds more like we should act according to something all the way and not part of it.
Here is another explanations for the same verse:
"So, bear with patience whatever they say. And strive to establish the
glory and praise of your Sustainer, from before sunrise to before sunset.
[Sabbih bihamd is usually translated as the ritualistic, ‘praise the Sustainer’,
‘celebrate His praise’, ‘hymn His praises’. But Sabbih means ‘strive hard’, and
it has nothing to do with Tasbeeh of rosary beads]"
(50:39, Shabbir Ahmed [QXPv, 2012])
Verse 11:114;
"And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night: For those things, that are good remove those that are evil: Be that the word of remembrance to those who remember (their Lord):" (Yusuf Ali)
"For those things, that are good remove those that are evil" does prayer remove evil? By uttering some words? Only at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night?
This might be better explanation:
"Strive to establish and consolidate the Divine System, day and night.
Actions that create balance in the society remove the ill effects of inequities.
Good deeds remove bad deeds. This is a reminder for those who pay
attention." (Shabbir Ahmed [QXPv, 2012])
"Times" doesn't seem to be associated with the ritual prayer.
Does this sound right?
"Seest thou not that it is Allah Whose praises all beings in the heavens and on earth do celebrate, and the birds (of the air) with wings outspread? Each one knows its own (mode of) prayer and praise. And Allah knows well all that they do." (24:41, Yusuf Ali)
This might sound better:
"Do you not realize that God, He is the One Whom all beings in the heavens and earth glorify, and the birds, with their wings outspread, as they fly in columns. All of them know their Salaat and Tasbeeh (mission and strife). God is Aware of what they do to fulfill His Plan.
[All creatures know their Salaat, their inborn Divinely programmed instincts. So, they can automatically strive (do their Tasbeeh) in the best way. But humans are not programmed with such inborn instincts. Given free will, they must do their Salaat by following the revealed guidance and thus strive (do Tasbeeh) in the best way]" (Shabbir Ahmed [QXPv, 2012])
What about mosques? According to QXPv (2012) by Shabbir Ahmed the word "masjid" (mosque) could mean "community centers" or "centers of administering the divine system". And that is not a place for rituals.
If we would keep praying even in the paradise, then what would we pray for? To be saved from the hell? Eternally with same timings? In the mosques? I think God wants us to obey Him (follow his laws); not to worship Him. God's guidence should mean to follow the Quran.
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I would like to see where this discussion goes.
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Salaam.
Haji Saheb,
The following is a quote from you:
["Bear, then, with patience, all that they say". This sounds like someone tries to make a change but others oppose that. It doesn't look like that they are trying to mock the one who prays. In addition "before the rising of the sun and before (its) setting" sounds more like we should act according to something all the way and not part of it.]
"And when you call the people to Al Salat, they just mock at it." (5:58)
"......before Salat-Al-Fajr... and before Salat-Al-'Isha'....." (24:58)
Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
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Leaving prayer, be it ritual or spontanous, and viewing living under law as "your prayer"....
...... Is the path to living Islam as an empty shell. It is no longer taking the time to recognise that I am created, and submit to the creator. Salat is the pattern taught by God to monontheists for thousands of years.
Living under law does not achieve this, as there is no conscious "time out" to focus..
Daniel
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Dear Haji, Do not quote Dr Shabbir who is disciple of Gulam Ahmed Perwaiz as these two are against Salath. Gulam Ahamed himself used to pray & Dr Shabbir also admit that prayers is small part of Salath. He has audacity to go far by telling that Thaawatur of Salat coming right from the time of prophet is not true. As Truth Seeker mentioned Dr Shabbir does not believe in Saum & Hajj. Why don't you go through the Articles & Face Book blogs of Bro Joseph Islam to get enlightened?Thanks for sharing.
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Salaam.
Brother Daniel,
Taking "conscious time out to focus" on the greatness of the Law, and the Immaculate Glory of the Law Giver, and prioritizing and focusing on mankind's personality development on the lines of integrity of character, charitable disposition, and constancy and consistency under God, is a far cry to those who believe that if and when a totalitarian government dawns on us which declares harshest punishments to all perverts according to a particular version of shari'a, all will be right with the world!
Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
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Bro Haji Who told you that dwellers of Paradise would keep praying? When Paradise is achieved why would a person pray there ? When once a person is declared passed in an examination why would he prepare for examination ?
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Salam.
Sardar Miyan:
"Dear Haji, Do not quote Dr Shabbir who is disciple of Gulam Ahmed Perwaiz as these two are against Salath. Gulam Ahamed himself used to pray & Dr Shabbir also admit that prayers is small part of Salath. He has audacity to go far by telling that Thaawatur of Salat coming right from the time of prophet is not true. As Truth Seeker mentioned Dr Shabbir does not believe in Saum & Hajj. Why don't you go through the Articles & Face Book blogs of Bro Joseph Islam to get enlightened?Thanks for sharing."
Just because others have opinions which are not conventionally accepted doesn't mean that we should dislike them. It is better to look at the both sides rather than choosing the one by your own valuations. As you can see there are cons and pros for supporting the ritual prayer. Therefore we have to find the best meaning by judging from the both sides.
"Those who listen to the Word, and follow the best (meaning) in it: those are the ones whom Allah has guided, and those are the ones endued with understanding." (39:18, Yusuf Ali)
If you follow the best meaning, then you are guided and have understanding. You are guided by God by obeying his commands.
I have read many of Joseph Islams articles. He gives good explanations to support the ritual prayer. But he also pointed out a problem:
"http://quransmessage.com/articles/sujud%20FM3.htm". It states that the word "Sujud" have different meanings. One example is:
"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward." (48:29, Yusuf Ali)
"On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration". Does it really sound right? In addition, read carefully what it states after it. Does the statements fit into the context?
The problem is: the more indications we find contradicting the ritual prayer, the more problematic the situation becomes. I think we have to see the whole picture in order to extract the best meaning. I highly recommend you to visit those both links I posted and read the texts.
Sardar Miyan:
"Bro Haji Who told you that dwellers of Paradise would keep praying? When Paradise is achieved why would a person pray there ? When once a person is declared passed in an examination why would he prepare for examination ?"
See this:
"Lo! those who believe and do good works, their Lord guideth them by their faith. Rivers will flow beneath them in the Gardens of Delight,
Their prayer therein will be: Glory be to Thee, O Allah! and their greeting therein will be: Peace. And the conclusion of their prayer will be: Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds!" (10:9-10, Pickthall). But others translate "prayer" as "call"/"cry". Then this is not exactly a ritual prayer.
Ismail, thank you for pointing that out.
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I was thinking that if Namaaz was invented by the Abbasids [750 CE onward]why do we find mention and details of Namaaz in sources that predate their caliphate, e.g we find Namaaz to be the same ritual we practice today in Malik's Muwatta. Malik bin Anas was born in 711 CE meaning he lived the first 39 years of his life when the Abbasid Caliphate was non-existent, he still lived over 40 years of his life into the Abbasid Caliphate, if Namaaz was an innovation by the Abbasids, would not Malik be aware of it? Why would he still include traditions regarding a ritual that was a later invention in his collection, and not just a few but dozens of them? Was Malik bin Anas also a criminal?
Post reply
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I was thinking that if Namaaz was invented by the Abbasids [750 CE onward]why do we find mention and details of Namaaz in sources that predate their caliphate, e.g we find Namaaz to be the same ritual we practice today in Malik's Muwatta. Malik bin Anas was born in 711 CE meaning he lived the first 39 years of his life when the Abbasid Caliphate was non-existent, he still lived over 40 years of his life into the Abbasid Caliphate, if Namaaz was an innovation by the Abbasids, would not Malik be aware of it? Why would he still include traditions regarding a ritual that was a later invention in his collection, and not just a few but dozens of them? Was Malik bin Anas also a criminal?
Post reply
Salaam Sardar.....br. Joseph makes a great point in his article re: the possible invention of ritual prayer.
http://quransmessage.com/articles/invented%20prayer%20FM3.htm
"There is clear evidence in the earliest Non-Muslim sources within approximately a decade of the Prophetic ministry which confirms that the earliest Muslims both prayed and fasted. There would be absolutely no perceivable interest for aggressed Christians to invent such Godly rituals and attribute them to the 'Saracens' (Arab Muslims) who they saw as oppressors."
Saba :) 8)
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Salam & Thanks sister Saba for referring to Bro JAI's article on Salath as mentioned by Christians during the few years of our Prophets ministry. Bro Haji has to admit this remove his doubts about Salath. Eminent Scholar Bro Edip Yuksil also refuted Dr Shabbir's claim of Salath being invented by HAROON Rasheed's mother in his response to Dr Shabbir a copy of which is in my record. Thanks
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Salaam!
Actually what is nonsense is to say that there is no ritual prayer according to Quran. Salaat and its numerous forms, derived from verbal roots Sa’d lam waw and Sa’d, lam ya, have been used many times in the Quran. Al-musalli is horse, which occupies the second spot in a race but runs so close that its ears brush the rear portion of the winning horse-(the one in front). The basic meaning of this root is to follow a leader closely and constantly in every walk of life.
In the Quran aqeemu-as- Salaat has been used both for Salaat (Namaz congregations) and for aqamat-e-Diin (the establishment and stability of the whole system in accordance with the laws of Allah, willingly following the Laws and orders of Allah and accomplishing those obligatory duties, which an obedient momin is expected to perform). To find out this distinction one has to consider the whole verse and the context in which it is revealed to see what exactly is meant by aqamat-e-Salaat. Similarly, one has to see in what context the word musalleen has been used, for it has been used for jamat-e-momineen (as a whole) or for those participating in the Salaat congregation.
I notice in one of the posts above, someone has wrongly mentioned about G.A Parwez that he did not agree with ritual aspect of Salaat, which is completely wrong. Actually G.A Parwez has clearly differentiated the ritual aspect of salaat and the non ritual aspect of salaat, and even in his translation he has taken care to explain the different usages of the term. For instance,
Ritual:-
[Parwez]In order to establish Quranic Order, congregational meetings of Sal’at are necessary. O Jama’at-ul-Momineen do not come to such an assembly with a befogged mind when you do not understand what you say......" 4:43
[Parwez] For the accomplishment of your programme you should arrange for the assembly of Sal’at at the break and close of the day and during the early hours of the night (17/78, 24/58). 11:114-115
Non Ritual:-
[Parwez] "These people possessed admirable qualities but) Their successors were unworthy people who simply neglected the system of Salat and (instead of following the Divine Laws) pursued their own gains and desires. (Now they are being given another chance. If they lose this too then very soon) They will find themselves facing utter destruction".(19:59)
[Parwez] “When an obedient follower of Allah tries to discharge his obligatory duties then he (his enemy) puts obstacles in his way.” 96:9-10 أَرَأَيْتَ الَّذِي يَنْهَىٰ عَبْدًا إِذَا صَلَّىٰ
According to G.A Parwez Salaat has the following meanings (detailed explanations are available but not posting at the moment).
• To remain attached to the Laws of Allah, to remain within the parameters of the Laws of Allah and to remain devoted to the Book of Allah.
• To tread a balanced and straight path..
• The method to carry out the duties.
• To establish a system in accordance with the Laws of the Quran.
• To surrender completely before the Laws of Allah and not to follow one’s own desires.
• To overcome one’s defects and shortcomings.
• To tame, to subjugate, and to arrest someone’s attention.
• Reverence and admiration.
• To offer Namaz (ritual namaz congregations).
• To become subservient to Allah.
• To respect, to bless, to encourage, to develop, to nourish, not to let decay or chaos to crop up.
• Jewish temples.
Regards,
Optimist
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Salaam
To me it seems like individuals like Dr. Shabbir use the name of big thinkers such as 'Parwez' to push their own errant views. They use and hide behind Parwez when they want to, misquote him and his views. I've seen it on ourbeacon all along. Dr. Shabbir comes along and distorts Parwez's views, then others like 'Jawed' who the ourbeaconites semi revere comes along and takes Dr. shabbir's views even further, yet they both claim to be great followers of 'Parwez' hiding behind his works!!!! If this can happen with 50 years or so, Parwez - Dr. shabbir - Jawed - you can imagine how the followers of great scholars in the past must have distorted the views of their masters under the name of their great teachers.
You are right br. Optimist, I've seen Parwez being misquoted re: ritual prayer. They even say things like that he really didn't pray but only out of fear did he pray? Such a big thinker prayed out of fear of men? ridiculous!! Yet, they keep on causing mischief with other people's work! Saba
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I participated once on a discussion where Dr. Shabbir followers participated. They tried to use Parwez to their advantage. I remember asking br. Joseph to participate (after much leg pulling) who kindly did (thanks, I know it must have been frustrating and time consuming!!!). I'm really glad he did as he opened up their inconsistent use of words, language and other views. It was clear to me at least that they this group of people were making things up as they went along adding words that didn't exist in the Arabic. It was really an eye-opener. Saba
http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?id=169
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Well said sister Saba You have exposed Dr Shabbir & Jawaid Ahmed very well. Imam Mliks description of Salath being performed during the ministership of Prophet totally refutes Dr Shabbir's claim that HAROON Rasheed'd mother Kaizaran invented the Salath. Above all Dr Shabbir says that Sajda is Immodest while there is Quranic description of falling down on the face. Following Allah's command is 24/7 job of a Muslim. Leading our life as per Quran is the main object & Prsying Salath is part of it.
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Bro Optimist, Salam, Perwaiz has written somewhere that the Muslims should continue to perform Salath as usual till a Central Authority makes some law Etc. I don't understand where the central authority come into picture while Allah's commands are there for Salath? This is not right.
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Why I think the ritual prayer is wrong? Let me explain you in three steps:
First step: the Quran doesn't seem to prescribe it;
When I read some verses about prayer in the Quran, it seems like they don't talk about the ritual prayer. Here are some examples:
"Those were some of the prophets on whom Allah did bestow His Grace,- of the posterity of Adam, and of those who We carried (in the Ark) with Noah, and of the posterity of Abraham and Israel of those whom We guided and chose. Whenever the Signs of (Allah) Most Gracious were rehearsed to them, they would fall down in prostrate adoration and in tears.
But after them there followed a posterity who missed prayers and followed after lusts soon, then, will they face Destruction,-" (19:58-59, Yusuf Ali)
Will people who don't pray get destroyed? That doesn't sound right. Here, the more correct intrepretation would be to say that those who abondened the laws of God would hurt themselves.
"Recite what is sent of the Book by inspiration to thee, and establish regular Prayer: for Prayer restrains from shameful and unjust deeds; and remembrance of Allah is the greatest (thing in life) without doubt. And Allah knows the (deeds) that ye do." (29:45, Yusuf Ali)
Here, God commands to recite His commands for people and follow them in order to protect people of making mistakes. Remebrance of God must be the remebrance of what he said us to do. Just remebering God will do not much. If the ritual prayer is true and if it is neccesery for protecting us of commiting sins, then how can you explain that people who don't pray also commit no sins? Otherwise we would have to pray eternally to be protected of commiting sins. Yes, even in the afterlife.
"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward." (48:29, Yusuf Ali)
Marks on the face? Oh my God. But seriously, it must be about actions not the ritual prayer. In addition, it is intresting to see Taurat and Gospel mentioned.
The ablution:
I had discussed about it here in a thread called "The real purpose of ablution". My conclusion was that ablution makes no sense for five daily prayers. I couldn't get pure understanding about it's purpose and therefore it is better to not follow it.
Second step: the logic of the ritual prayer;
Many questions needs to be answered. Does God need our prayers or do we pray for ourselves? How does the ritual prayer work? Will ones prayer cancel the others if he wish the same object? Does God change His laws?
Actually, God doesn't change His laws:
"For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present and in the Hereafter; no change can there be in the words of Allah. This is indeed the supreme felicity." (10:64, Yusuf Ali).
"(This was Our) way with the messengers We sent before thee: thou wilt find no change in Our ways." (17:77, Yusuf Ali)
Remember...
"And pursue not that of which thou hast no knowledge; for every act of hearing, or of seeing or of (feeling in) the heart will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning)." (17:36, Yusuf Ali). Believe is nothing without knowledge.
Third step: it doesn't fit into my life;
I live in Sweden. In winters, it gets cold and nights are longer. This is how prayer scheme looks in northern part of Sweden in december month:
Fadjr: 07:16; Shuruk: 09:37; Zuhr: 11:37; Assr: 11:54; Magreb: 13:35; Isha 15:46. It is a rush. Sometimes I got nervous thinking that if I would miss the prayers, it would be counted as a sin. Furthermore, because of washing during winter time, my skin dried out, cracked and bleeded. But now, thank God, I'm free. I stopped believing and my life got much better. I don't believe in devil, angels, soul, magic and such. Quran contains many metaphors, but not all of them are recognized. Sadly, people took them literally. Why did God use metaphors? I think because you can't exactly describe what e.g. Paradise and Hell is.
Muslims put believe over understanding. That is what problem is with todays Muslims. Maybe because of this Muslim countries don't make good progress. Religion is a plague in our lives and society.
"Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy." (4:82, Yusuf Ali)
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Bro Optimist, Salam, Perwaiz has written somewhere that the Muslims should continue to perform Salath as usual till a Central Authority makes some law Etc. I don't understand where the central authority come into picture while Allah's commands are there for Salath? This is not right.
Wassalam,
Please note, G. A Parwez acknowledges that it is imperative to bring about changes and modifications in its present form of ritual prayer which are at present bittered with differences among different factions in Muslim soceity. According to Parwez, there is no way of disposing of these differences and disagreements today. There is only one alternative: the caliphate-at-the-pattern-of-the-Messengerhood based on the safeguarded and immutable constitution of the Quran is reconstructed. It would be the prerogative of that system to inculcate again, after deciding the disagreement among the Ummah, the same harmony of thought and action which prevailed during the era of Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah (S) and his companions (who conformed their action to that of their Nourisher). Till this is done, the ways and means coming down to us are sustained as these are provided these are not in contravention to any self-explained injunction of the Quran. No individual or group shall have any right to bring up any changes. Bringing any change in them would cause further factionalism in the Ummah and the factionalism, according to the Quran, is polytheism – ascribing plurality to the Deity. In order highlight the seriousness of creating factionalism, Parwez wrote the following from Quran while discussing the ritual prayer.
Hazrat Moses goes out for a few days and leaves Bani Israel under the surveillance of Aaron. When he (Moses) comes back, he notices that his followers have indulged in the worship of a cow. Whatever impact of this incidence could be on the temperament of Hazrat Moses is clear. He becomes upset, furious, and enraged. And asks his brother: “(O Aaron) when you saw: "they are going astray", what kept you back that you did not forbid them (from this way)."
Now listen to what Aaron responded to. But it must be remembered that Hazrat Aaron was also the Messenger of Allah. In response to it, he says: “Truly I feared that thou should say: “You have caused a division among the children of Israel and you did not wait for my word”.
My brothers, did you pay heed to it as to what was there behind this matter? Hazrat Aaron said, "These people had started worshipping cow for some time on account of their ignorance; to me it was not such a great crime as was to create division and discord amongst them". This answer is being given by a Nabi, and the second Nabi, on this answer, gets satisfied. Because the Quran has itself testified sectarianism (discord) as anathema (30:31-32). It is evident now that cow-worship was also anathema (Shirk) and the factionalism was equally too. But the anathema of sectarianism was such a heinous and dangerous crime that in order to get saved from it, even the anathema of cow-worship could temporarily be assimilated. Hence the Quran stands witness to it that Tauba put away the crime of cow-worship:
فَتَابَ عَلَيْكُمْ إِنَّهُ هُوَ التَّوَّابُ الرَّحِيمُ Then He turned towards you (in forgiveness): For He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful. (54)
While answering a specific question how Parwez offered prayers, Parwez himself wrote;
.......Now comes the second part of your question: How do I offer prayer – Namaaz? You needed no excuse for asking this question. Had you been with me, you would have yourself seen me offering the Namaaz – prayers. But since you are far away, you had to ask me through this writing. I offer the Namaaz in just the same manner the majority of Muslims (in accordance with the Hanafee jurisprudence) offer the Namaaz. It is with this difference that if some where the Namaaz – prayer – is being offered in a manner other than that of the Hanafee’s (and I know of that manner) I do not hesitate to participate with their mode of offering.
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Salaam Optimist, Thank you so much for that!!!. It is sad to see that those that claim to be inspired by Parwez such as Dr. Shabbir and his followers try to dismiss this clear fact that Parwez did offer ritual prayers. I have seen them try to twist his words and somewhere I even read that he prayed out of fear!!!! Unbelievable the extent that they go to !!... Saba
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Why I think the ritual prayer is wrong? Let me explain you in three steps:
First step: the Quran doesn't seem to prescribe it;
When I read some verses about prayer in the Quran, it seems like they don't talk about the ritual prayer. Here are some examples:
"Those were some of the prophets on whom Allah did bestow His Grace,- of the posterity of Adam, and of those who We carried (in the Ark) with Noah, and of the posterity of Abraham and Israel of those whom We guided and chose. Whenever the Signs of (Allah) Most Gracious were rehearsed to them, they would fall down in prostrate adoration and in tears.
But after them there followed a posterity who missed prayers and followed after lusts soon, then, will they face Destruction,-" (19:58-59, Yusuf Ali)
Will people who don't pray get destroyed? That doesn't sound right. Here, the more correct intrepretation would be to say that those who abondened the laws of God would hurt themselves.
Salaam!
Your comments make me think about the story of six blind men and an elephant.
I had discussed about it here in a thread called "The real purpose of ablution". My conclusion was that ablution makes no sense for five daily prayers.
Ablution may not be making sense for 5 daily prayers, but it certainly does make sense for ritual prayer.
Many questions needs to be answered. Does God need our prayers or do we pray for ourselves? How does the ritual prayer work?
God does not need our ritual or non-ritual 'prayers'. God is free of need. Also rituals are not meaningless you seem to suggest. There is deep linkage between man’s mind and body, for example, if you are lying down and decide to do something then you get up as the thought crosses your mind; when you wish to rest, you either sit down or lie down; or when you say ‘yes’ you nod your head (automatically and subconsciously) : when you respect someone your hand rises to your forehead (for a salaam or salute) and if your respect transcends this then you start to bow before that person; these actions also affect your speech which is a translation of your bodily movements or expresses the same emotions that the movements signify. Also, when a group of people in unison bow or prostrate it does create great unity among themselves. The qur’an says about momins fight in the way of Allah as "ka annahum bunyanun marsus" 61:4 as if they are an unshakeable wall. This can happen when the hearts are integrated with one another. Rituals have got their own importance in building strong unity among Muslims.
The human also expresses his passions through the concrete movements of the organs of the body and this has so deeply rooted in him that such movements go on being accomplished automatically by him. The passions of sorrow and anger, gaiety, wonder, firm determination and resolve, yes and no, etc and the like - and the declaration of his decisions - inadvertently go on coming to pass through the physical movements of the human. Though the Quran keeps a watching eye over the essence and reality of action and outweighs the sheer formalism, but wherever there is need for outwitting the essence and reality of passion, it does not give any deterrence provided this very form is not taken to be the mean itself. The practical form, in connection with the standing and prostrating etc. position, infiltrating down to us, is only for this very purpose. It is clear that when the manifestation of passion occurs in the collective form, the harmony among the concrete movements of the expression of passions is a must, otherwise there would look to be emerging chaos in the congregation. Keeping discipline in the expression of fervid passions of respect and honor, submission and regular obeisance, subordination and self-commitment in itself warrant vehement development of the self.
Regards,
Optimist
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Dear brother Optimist,
As-salam alaykum
I found your last post to be an excellent one.
Thank you for sharing.
Your brother in faith,
Joseph
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Salaam.
Ritual prayers, with their ablutions, mass drills of standing in attention, bowing and prostration, in vogue throughout the world, have their own merits.
Voices of dissension regarding them are negligible. They are cherished by one and all. That is why we are always witnessing an increasing proliferation of masjids and mass prayers.
Even those who criticize them are, more often than not, found participating!
For the world to change for the better, the dimensions of humility, and the reciting of, or listening to Al Qur'an in rapt attention, must be added to the solemn ritual, in right earnest.
The ubiquitous Thabligi Jama'ath, perhaps the largest Muslim movement in the world, has to be oriented towards paying the required attention to this.
Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
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Salaam.
Optimist quoted Pervez thus:
Now listen to what Aaron responded to. But it must be remembered that Hazrat Aaron was also the Messenger of Allah. In response to it, he says: “Truly I feared that thou should say: “You have caused a division among the children of Israel and you did not wait for my word”.
The point to be noted here is that Aaron does not say that he feared division among the children of Israel and so he did not advise them. In stead, he said to Moses that he feared that Moses would say that he (Aaron) caused division among the children of Israel.
The truth is:
"And Aaron had indeed already said to them: 'O my people! You are being tried by this (calf crafted by Samri)....So follow me and obey my order.'" (20:90)
Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
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As-salam alaykum
Also somewhat related, it is worth considering the pretext to this narrative, with a view to garner deeper wisdom and to understand the multi-layered step-by-step approach that messengers were (and all truth bearers are) expected to take to inculcate the message deeper into the psyche of their people. Did Prophet Moses hasten to leave his people when he was expected to have stayed a little longer amongst his folk as the central messenger to provide more stability? Was he expected to stay with his people longer so that Prophet Aaron would not become compromised too early? After all, they were expected to work in tandem. There is much wisdom to take from all these beautiful verses.
020.083
"And (it was said): What has made you hasten (a'jalaka) from your people, O Moses?"
A'jala - To make haste, or to hasten before an appropriate time.
020.084
"He said: They are close upon my tracks and I hastened to You, my Lord, that You might be pleased"
020.085
"He said: But indeed, We have tried your people after you and As-Samiri has led them astray!"
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Salaam,
Ablution may not be making sense for 5 daily prayers, but it certainly does make sense for ritual prayer.
He-he. Yes it does, in a psychological sense for congregations, but not if you are already clean and pray at home alone. Visited toilet, wash yourself for next prayer and again: visited toilet, wash yourself for next prayer. Not sure how does it work. Another problem is that in cold countries, like Sweden, your skin would crack and bleed because of too much water contact. My African Muslim friends use cream to prevent that. How awful is that. In addition, it is so cloudy here in Sweden that it makes hard to determine prayer times without "prayer calender". If you would go even further in Northern direction, there would be perhaps no sunlight at all during a day. But what about following Meckan times instead? Sorry, the internet is down. :)
Dear Optimist, I liked your comments in your last post. It sounded lika a talk about culture and habits and its effects. Yes, alike children play the best. But it isn't a universal and permament thing. What actually unites people is not culture or rituals but permament values. Good cultures are made of them, that is why they survive. There are different people and cultures, but permament values are one. Otherwise we would have to pray eternally in Paradise to keep humanity united. Do we really need such strange and unclear rituals while we could just follow God's commands? To follow God's commands would teach us to be responsible for our actions and it also would give us the real freedom in our lives. Freedom to prosper and achieve our dreams. The ritual prayer, in my opinion, makes you helpless in God's eyes, hoping to get salvation somehow without knowledge. Look at the World, do others who don't pray do live a terrible life? I don't think so.
What do you think about these comparisons?
"Maintain with care the [obligatory] prayers and [in particular] the middle prayer and stand before Allah ,
devoutly obedient. And if you fear [an enemy, then pray] on foot or riding. But when you are secure, then remember Allah [in prayer], as He has taught you that which you did not [previously] know." (2:238-239, Sahih International)
"You should fulfil the responsibilities which have been prescribed above. However, this is not all. There are other
responsibilities which are more crucial to the Niz’am-us-Sal’at. These responsibilities should be fulfilled according to
circumstances prevailing during the state of danger or peace. Allah [*5] has given you this Guidance – which you did not
have before." (for 2:238-239, Expositon of the Quran, G. A. Parwez)
And these:
"Recite what is sent of the Book by inspiration to thee, and establish regular Prayer: for Prayer restrains from shameful and unjust deeds; and remembrance of Allah is the greatest (thing in life) without doubt. And Allah knows the (deeds) that ye do." (29:45, Yusuf Ali)
"(There are sets of Divine Laws called Laws of Nature, which are prevalent in the outer world. Others are revealed through Wahi, and these provide guidance to mankind.) (O Rasool!) Convey to the people the laws which have been revealed to you through Wahi, and establish the Nizam-us-Salat accordingly. This system will certainly stop people from collecting everything for themselves and from not caring about the welfare of others. And to further this selfish purpose their intellect keeps on suggesting various strange and crafty ways to them. (70:21-27) This system of Salat can only be established when the supreme authority in human society is vested in the Divine Laws. And Allah Almighty knows full well what your self-made laws and systems can do." (for 29:45, Expositon of the Quran, G. A. Parwez)
And there are probalby more.
So did Parwez really pray? Could you give me sources (I mean books, websites etc) where it states that he prayed? You talk much about Parwez, so I got intrested to read about him and his books and seek there for inspiration. For now I can't allow myself to believe in ritual prayer because it doesn't seem to be true. I hope you understand me.
Source of Parwez work:
http://www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/expo/exposition.htm
Regards,
Haji
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So did Parwez really pray? Could you give me sources (I mean books, websites etc) where it states that he prayed?
Salaam!
You are asking question as if praying is an offense! ::)
I have already posted above, words from G.A Parwez himself confirming that he prayed. I quote again with the website link. Please check the last para in the following link.
http://www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/QD/QD_1_01_04.htm
.......Now comes the second part of your question: How do I offer prayer – Namaaz? You needed no excuse for asking this question. Had you been with me, you would have yourself seen me offering the Namaaz – prayers. But since you are far away, you had to ask me through this writing. I offer the Namaaz in just the same manner the majority of Muslims (in accordance with the Hanafee jurisprudence) offer the Namaaz. It is with this difference that if some where the Namaaz – prayer – is being offered in a manner other than that of the Hanafee’s (and I know of that manner) I do not hesitate to participate with their mode of offering.
I know even comments directly from Parwez may not be satisfactory for you. You are programmed to believe that Parwez did not pray based on your reading through fake IDs in ourbeacon, for instance, a post repeately posted therein every now and then by one "Prof Ismail Dhoraji, Bahrain" with title "Allama Parwez as I knew him", a deliberate propaganda post to elevate Dr. Shabbir over and above G.A Parwez and a desperate attempt to convince others there is no ritual prayer in Islam falsely linking great scholars like G.A Parwez. Here is a funny comment from the post; "THE VOID: It took decades after the 1950s until the Almighty matured up my dear son Dr Shabbir Ahmed of Florida and he started re-examining, revisiting, addressing and improving the great works of Allama G.A.P. He also did some marvelous works that the Allama had left undone". The so called companion of G.A Parwez (this is the claim) has never even cared to check the number of works undertaken by G.A. Parwez. Even a verification of this fact alone will prove to you how authentic is the comments. Even if Dr. Shabbir spends a lifetime, he won't be able to undertake the works undertaken by G.A Parwez. Actually the main work Dr. Shabbir has done (ignoring his translation which is actually an "improvement" of the exposition of the Quran by G.A. Parwez) is "The Criminals of Islam", a highly infamatory work (according to me not expected from any true scholar of Islam) and you may also check ACADEMIC DISHONESTY - DR. SHABBIR AHMED for the credibility of the work in the following link; http://quransmessage.com/expose/dr-shabbir-razi%20FM3.htm.
I will make comments for the other points later.
Regards,
Optimist
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I will make comments for the other points later. Insha Allah
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Salaam.
Dear Haji,
"(There are sets of Divine Laws called Laws of Nature, which are prevalent in the outer world. Others are revealed through Wahi, and these provide guidance to mankind.) (O Rasool!) Convey to the people the laws which have been revealed to you through Wahi, and establish the Nizam-us-Salat accordingly. This system will certainly stop people from collecting everything for themselves and from not caring about the welfare of others. And to further this selfish purpose their intellect keeps on suggesting various strange and crafty ways to them. (70:21-27) This system of Salat can only be established when the supreme authority in human society is vested in the Divine Laws. And Allah Almighty knows full well what your self-made laws and systems can do." (for 29:45, Expositon of the Quran, G. A. Parwez)
To me, the bold, underlined, and mutually related statements seem to be stranger than strangeness itself.
It is quite understandable, if lay men like you and me get upset when they see the appalling state of the Musallees, and their undue indulgence in the technicalities of Salat, forgetting the primacy of the Permanent Values, and giving step-motherly treatment to them.
But the solution does not lie in an eternal wait for a "Supreme Authority vested in the divine laws" to emerge. This is because the universal establishment of Salat by a supreme authority is obligatory only when we get the supreme power in the world. Whether geographically limited or not, such power, along with the thoufeeq to establish Salat, institute Zakah, and to Bid Kndness and Forbid Evil, (22:41) comes only to those who are thoroughly established in Thouheed. (24:55)
Such anticipation is as good as that associated with the Mehdi. Those who believe in such things, only pay lip service to the Permanent Values. Their belief or quest for power overrides any thought of "loving God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind' - which is what 30:30-31-32 is about. And that - that is Thouheed, indeed!
Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
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Salaam.
Dear Haji,
"(There are sets of Divine Laws called Laws of Nature, which are prevalent in the outer world. Others are revealed through Wahi, and these provide guidance to mankind.) (O Rasool!) Convey to the people the laws which have been revealed to you through Wahi, and establish the Nizam-us-Salat accordingly. This system will certainly stop people from collecting everything for themselves and from not caring about the welfare of others. And to further this selfish purpose their intellect keeps on suggesting various strange and crafty ways to them. (70:21-27) This system of Salat can only be established when the supreme authority in human society is vested in the Divine Laws. And Allah Almighty knows full well what your self-made laws and systems can do." (for 29:45, Expositon of the Quran, G. A. Parwez)
To me, the bold, underlined, and mutually related statements seem to be stranger than strangeness itself.
It is quite understandable, if lay men like you and me get upset when they see the appalling state of the Musallees, and their undue indulgence in the technicalities of Salat, forgetting the primacy of the Permanent Values, and giving only step-motherly treatment to them.
But the solution does not lie in an eternal wait for a "Supreme Authority vested in the divine laws" to emerge. This is because the universal establishment of Salat by a supreme authority is obligatory only when we get the supreme power in the world. Whether geographically limited or not, such power, along with the thoufeeq to establish Salat, institute Zakah, and to Bid Kndness and Forbid Evil, (22:41) comes only to those who are thoroughly established in Thouheed. (24:55)
Such anticipation is as good as that associated with the Mehdi. Those who believe in such things, only pay lip service to the Permanent Values. Their belief or quest for power overrides any thought of "loving God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind" - which is what 30:30-31-32 is about. And that - that is Thouheed, indeed!
Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
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Salaam Ismail,
I'm not upset but rather happy to see others defend the ritual prayer. I've prayed many years and to my experience it wasn't that bad.
Yes, making those statements bold were unnecessery. My bad. But I would appreciate some sources pointing out that he prayed.
Regards,
Haji
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But I would appreciate some sources pointing out that he prayed.
Salaam,
Couple of posts above, I had posted sources directly from him with link to the source. Do you still deny?
The ritual prayer, in my opinion, makes you helpless in God's eyes, hoping to get salvation somehow without knowledge.
Now to reply to you for the other comments in your previous post, I will say that you are confused about the purpose of ritual prayer. Forget about common people, if someone believes that ritual prayer can make him get salvation, he lives in fool’s paradise. Your problem is that when you think of ritual prayer you start to visualize you praying alone in your room and the pain and suffering you have to undergo in Sweden to take wudu and the difficult climatic conditions therein. I request you to check the link I provided in my previous post, wherein G.A. Parwez mentions the importance and beauty of congregational prayers in just a few words.
The fundamental principle of the Order of Deen (Islamic Society) is that the life of achievement and prosperity is not individual in its nature; it is collective. The congregation of Salaat takes its initiative from this very principle i.e. the gathering of the scattered people at one place on a single call. The next step in the Order of Deen is obedience to the Centre. In the Collective Salaat its manifestation harbors in a practical form when this conglomeration selects the best of its individual within its own rank and file as an “Imam” – the leader. (And the criterion of being the best is: whose life surpasses the most in harmonizing the Divine Laws.) This same “Imam” is the representative of this gathering. Everyone has to rise up on the call of this same one. And every one has to kneel down on the same call – And this kneeling and rising is a simultaneous anchoring providing witness to the stark fact that there is perfect harmony of thought and action among the members of this group. This makes the social stigmas go vanishing.
There is more I can state to show the importance of ritual prayer and its benefits. Maybe at some other stage.
"You should fulfil the responsibilities which have been prescribed above. However, this is not all. There are other responsibilities which are more crucial to the Niz’am-us-Sal’at. These responsibilities should be fulfilled according to circumstances prevailing during the state of danger or peace. Allah [*5] has given you this Guidance – which you did not have before." (for 2:238-239, Expositon of the Quran, G. A. Parwez)
You missed to quote Parwez completely. As an explanation [*5] Parwez has stated the following also;
[*5] If these two verses refer to formal prayer it would mean that during the state of danger normal formalities may be suspended and prayer may be offered afoot or mounted as practicable. Details about prayer are given in (4/101-103).
As I stated in post No.14 Parwez has clearly differentiated the ritual aspect of salaat and the non ritual aspect of salaat, and even in his translation he has taken care to explain the different usages of the term. I have given examples of such verses.
Regards,
Optimist
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Dear brother Haji,
As-salam alaykum
I would like to share a couple of verses for your consideration:
Verse 5:106 says that: 'Detain both of them 'after the salaat' (ba'di -l-salaat).
If 'salaat' just meant the establishment of a Divine system with a view to implement it, how would this verse be reconciled with such a concept considering that the believers were already in a state of establishing God's laws and the context is specific and 'immediate' to someone's demise?
Furthermore, in verse 62:10, the Quran says "Then when the salaat is concluded, finished or ended' (qudiyati).
How can such a Divine System of laws that one is expected to uphold 24x7 end or conclude?
Finally, with regards Ghulam Parwez's views on ritual prayer and what he really believed, I share with you a link to his video in which you can hear his views directly from his own mouth. I trust this will remove any ambiguity. This video has been shared with me by trusted Urdu speaking sources who have translated this for me independently and I am rest assured that this will provide you unequivocal evidence to satisfy your request, God willing.
BELIEFS OF ALLAMA GHULAM AHMAD PARWEZ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGgLSGnbhCk&sns=em
Kind regards,
Joseph.
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"(There are sets of Divine Laws called Laws of Nature, which are prevalent in the outer world. Others are revealed through Wahi, and these provide guidance to mankind.) (O Rasool!) Convey to the people the laws which have been revealed to you through Wahi, and establish the Nizam-us-Salat accordingly. This system will certainly stop people from collecting everything for themselves and from not caring about the welfare of others. And to further this selfish purpose their intellect keeps on suggesting various strange and crafty ways to them. (70:21-27) This system of Salat can only be established when the supreme authority in human society is vested in the Divine Laws. And Allah Almighty knows full well what your self-made laws and systems can do." (for 29:45, Expositon of the Quran, G. A. Parwez)
To me, the bold, underlined, and mutually related statements seem to be stranger than strangeness itself.
But the solution does not lie in an eternal wait for a "Supreme Authority vested in the divine laws" to emerge.
Salaam!
Just forgive the translator if you found it to be stranger than strangeness itself. I do not think any implication is made in the translation that we should wait for "Supreme Authority vested in the divine laws" to emerge. What is stated and implied in the interpretation is that in order to establish the system of Salat effectively we have to strive to establish an Islamic Society which will have authority in the land to establish Divine Laws. Confusion can happen if you read what a translator says from here and there. It is stated in the Quran elsewhere;
الَّذِينَ إِنْ مَكَّنَّاهُمْ فِي الْأَرْضِ أَقَامُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتَوُا الزَّكَاةَ وَأَمَرُوا بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَنَهَوْا عَنِ الْمُنْكَرِ وَلِلَّهِ عَاقِبَةُ الْأُمُورِ
Those who, if We establish them in the earth, they will establish Salat (so that everyone in society follows the system of Divine Laws). They will provide means of development to each and everyone and enforce Laws which are in conformity with the Divine Code (the Quran); and forbid people from doing anything that is contrary to it.
To make people live in the hope of any Mehdi or any saviour to come and rescue them is contrary to the teaching of the Quran. Such concepts will make people defeatists and pessimists.
Regards
Optimist
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Dear brother Haji,
As-salam alaykum
I would like to share a couple of verses for your consideration:
Verse 5:106 says that: 'Detain both of them 'after the salaat' (ba'di -l-salaat).
If 'salaat' just meant the establishment of a Divine system with a view to implement it, how would this verse be reconciled with such a concept considering that the believers were already in a state of establishing God's laws and the context is specific and 'immediate' to someone's demise?
Furthermore, in verse 62:10, the Quran says "Then when the salaat is concluded, finished or ended' (qudiyati).
How can such a Divine System of laws that one is expected to uphold 24x7 end or conclude?
Finally, with regards Ghulam Parwez's views on ritual prayer and what he really believed, I share with you a link to his video in which you can hear his views directly from his own mouth. I trust this will remove any ambiguity. This video has been shared with me by trusted Urdu speaking sources who have translated this for me independently and I am rest assured that this will provide you unequivocal evidence to satisfy your request, God willing.
BELIEFS OF ALLAMA GHULAM AHMAD PARWEZ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGgLSGnbhCk&sns=em
Kind regards,
Joseph.
Thank you brother Joseph for sharing this and the VIDEO!!!!!! Saba :) 8)
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Verse 5:106 says that: 'Detain both of them 'after the salaat' (ba'di -l-salaat).
If 'salaat' just meant the establishment of a Divine system with a view to implement it, how would this verse be reconciled with such a concept considering that the believers were already in a state of establishing God's laws and the context is specific and 'immediate' to someone's demise?
Furthermore, in verse 62:10, the Quran says "Then when the salaat is concluded, finished or ended' (qudiyati).
How can such a Divine System of laws that one is expected to uphold 24x7 end or conclude?
Salaam,
Thank you brother Joseph islam for the post and also the video.
Regards,
Optimist
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Salaam,
Thank you for all good answers. You did your part, defending the ritual prayer, and for now I've nothing important to say. Now I need time to study from different perspectives and make a decision for myself. And I hope I didn't hurt you in some way.
Best regards,
Haji
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Dear Haji, Ismail and All,
From my side, if any of my comments were improper, I am sorry.
Kind regards to all
Assalamu alaikum
Optimist
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Salaam.
Dear Optimist, here is a quote from you:
[What is stated and implied in the interpretation is that in order to establish the system of Salat effectively we have to strive to establish an Islamic Society which will have authority in the land to establish Divine Laws.]
People proclaim from housetops that Prophet Muhammed is an example for us in every way. And they go to great lengths to justify their statement.
When they are asked to show us how he is an example for us to emulate as regards our attitude to parents, they are lost. They immediately try to narrate his reported advice regarding parents, or they try to quote injunctions from Al Qur'an.
Duty to parents, according to Qur'an, is something Allah mentions immediately after His injunction not to deem partners unto Him!
Such a cardinal value, not found implemented in our Prophet's life?!
This being the historical truth, the question arises: Did the Prophet, who is reckoned as the ultimate ideal, really fulfill Allah's Deen?
It all means, that, striving for authority in the land, is not our goal. For, it is not indispensable for establishing the system of Salat, or, in other words, establishing Divine Laws, effectively.
The moment we interpret Iqama Al Saat, or Iqama Al Deen as a double quest, that of inculcating Millathe Ibrahim in our personal lives on the one hand, and, of implementing the full Qur'anic Jurisprudence on the other hand, we become guilty of frayed concentration, and thus we are neither here, nor there.
In Al Qur'an, first, Allah praises the Sahaba and expresses the hope that they are such that if they are given power in the land, they will establish (as far is in their power) Salat, implement the system of Zakah, bid kindness, and also forbid evil. (22:41)
Then, in (24:55), He pledges power in the land to those among them who "believe and do righteous deeds". Finally, in the same verse, He concludes, that such power, coupled with the thoufeeq to establish Salat, institute Zakah, and to Bid Kndness and Forbid Evil, comes only to those who are thoroughly established in Thouheed. (24:55)
But when we join "striving for power", with Iqama Al Deen, or Iqama Al Salah, we are committing Shirk!
Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
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Salam Bro Optimist You are doing well in explaining Salath by Perwaiz & exposing the agenda of Dr Shabbir& his supporters.Bro JAI has explained salath in various posts & Face Book, His great job is proving the prayers by muslims by quoting their writings of non muslim historians that muslims used to pray & fast which demolishes Dr Shabbirs ascertion that Haroon Rasheed's mother invented.The fact that Salath is mentioned in Ibne Maliks book long before Haroon Rasheed;s period falsifys Dr Shabbir's resent claim challenging the Tawaatur(Continivity) of Salath.Thanks