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The Quran => General Discussions => Topic started by: optimist on December 27, 2013, 04:05:04 PM

Title: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: optimist on December 27, 2013, 04:05:04 PM
Salaam!

In the divine system every individual works to full capacity, but keeps only what he needs, whilst leaving the remainder of his earnings open for the benefit of society. 

And they ask you as to what they should spend (in God's cause). Say: ‘Whatever is surplus to your needs’ (2:219)

In the divine system the responsibility of ensuring that sustenance reaches each and every member of society falls on the administration (11:6).  It will take care of their children as well (17:31)

The Quran says:  “Satan threatens you with the prospect of poverty and bids you to be miserly (fahsha) - Whereas God promises you His forgiveness (ghafr) and bounty” (2:268).  (The word ghafr is usually translated as ‘forgive’, the word ghafr actually means “protect” or “succor”).

In the above, the Quran has explained the difference between man-made and divine system in just a few words.  In the former every individual is responsible for meeting his own needs, and in this type of society the individual is worried only about his own future. He lives in constant fear of a day in which he is unable (for whatever reason) to provide for himself and his children.  He is forced to live in the fear of threat of poverty.  This powerful feeling of insecurity is the underlying root of the need to hoard to the grave (102-1-2)

In the divine system no one shall be allowed to hoard wealth and hoarding of wealth will be considered a grave crime with dire consequences (9:35). 

But as for those who lay up treasures of gold and silver and do not spend them for the sake of God – give them the tiding of grievous suffering (in the life to come)  (9:34)

The words infaaq fe sabil-allah in the above verse is usually translated as ‘spend in the path of God’ needs proper explanation.  Nafaq (from which infaaq is derived) refers to a tunnel that is open at both ends (the antonym of nafaq is sarb, which is a one-way tunnel closed at the other end.  The meaning of infaaq in the Quran is to leave resources open to everyone.  In the Quran, in fact, bukhal is used as the antonym of infaaaq.  Bukhal means ‘stinginess’ or ‘meanness’, i.e to ‘to keep to oneself’, or ‘to hold onto’ or ‘hoard’.  Contrary to this, the meaning of infaaq is to ‘keep open’ for the benefit of everyone, or ‘open up’, and to ‘remove restrications’.  Therefore any society that bases itself on the principle of infaaq fi sabil-allah is one in the which every individual leaves open the fruit of his labour for the benefit of the collective. He/she will not place restrictions on what he/she gives away.  Every member of this society will constantly keep the interest of the whole in mind, thus place the collective interest above self interest.

An aside:  according to one hadith: Ibn-e-Abbas says that when this verse (9:34) was revealed to the messenger, the believers were confounded. They became heavy-hearted.  Umar Ibn Khattab said to them, ‘I will take your trouble away and ease your hardship’.  Thereupon Umar went to the Messenger and beseeched him. ‘Oh Messenger of God! This verse has troubled your companions. The Messenger replied. ‘This is why God has made Zakaat obligatory, so that the rest of wealth will become purified: and (similarly), inheritance laws have been made obligatory to ensure that those you leave behind after death will receive your wealth’. Upon hearing the Messenger’s reply, Umar happily declared : “God is great! (Abu Dhaud, citing from Mishqaat, chapter Kitab al Zakaat)[/i]

It is clear from the tone of the above hadith that it is an invented hadith. Numerous verses testify that the believers hearts would never become ‘heavy’ at hearing a divine command (See 8:2, 13:28, 16:22, 22:35, 23:60, 48:4, 58:22).  In fact it is the hypocrites whose hearts become heavy at hearing divine commandments (e.g. 47:24, 9:125)

In the divine system neither the land nor its resources can be taken into private ownership.  These are left open for the benefit of all (41:10)

In Surah Al Ra’d, it is said that an idea struck the mind of the prophet: ‘Whether the revolution for which I have spent my whole life, will be accomplished in my life time or not?’ He replied: ‘You do not bother yourself whether this will be fulfilled during this life of yours or otherwise, you have to see that this Message is publicised. It will meet its fulfillment either during you worldly life or otherwise. Don’t you see how We are limiting and reducing the land and its area from the big landholders”. This is Our verdict (that their ownership on land shall be terminated), and no power on earth can invert Our verdict. Very soon We will call them to account’ (13:41).

In Surah Al Anbiya’, it is said: ‘They and their ancestors got the land to produce means of livelihood. With the lapse of time they established their adverse possession. Now We are gradually withdrawing it from their hands. Our program will get accomplished undoubtedly. They will not win over Us’ (21:44). In the power achieved due to landlordism, there is an indication that it will be abolished.

                                                                                                       .........to be continued
Regards
Optimist
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: Ismail on December 30, 2013, 04:32:15 AM
Salaam.

The Hereafter is based wholly on the freedom of the individual regarding capacity, ownership, needs, etc.

Any Government is entitled to a very limited portion, just enough to carry out the various aspects of Administration.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.



Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: optimist on January 03, 2014, 02:35:38 PM
Salaam.

The Hereafter is based wholly on the freedom of the individual regarding capacity, ownership, needs, etc.

Any Government is entitled to a very limited portion, just enough to carry out the various aspects of Administration.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

Wassalam,
I feel like you meant to post this in the other thread we already discussed! I can't find any link to the topic.
Regards,
Optimist
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: optimist on January 03, 2014, 02:52:05 PM
Continued from initial post;

The Land belongs to Allah alone :-

To state this fact, the Quran has quoted an event of the people of Thamud. It states that cattle-rearing was the means of livelihood of the people of Thamud. There were open grazing lands and water points in the surroundings, but the leaders of that nation had kept them under their individual control. Due to this, cattle of the weaker sections used to remain hungry and thirsty. Prophet Saleh raised voice against the oppression and violence of those chiefs who asked him as to what he wanted finally. He replied: ‘I want that as this land belongs to Allah, it is neither yours nor mine, and these cattle are also created by Him. Therefore, these animals should have freedom to graze on the land of their Allah. In what way you have the right that you fix up boundaries on arzullah (land of Allah) this way that His creatures cannot cross the boundaries fixed by you on His land (7:73; 11:64).

"This she-camel of Allah is a Sign unto you: So leave her to graze in Allah's earth, and let her come to no harm, or ye shall be seized with a grievous punishment"(7:73)

In the land of Madyan, an event of this kind had occurred with Prophet Moses where the herdsmen of the tribal chiefs did not allow the cattle of weak and feeble girls to take water from the water points (28:23). 

The people of Saleh asked him ‘What should be the practical approach to this problem?’ Prophet Saleh said: ‘This is a very simple matter. You fix up the turns of the animals irrespective of the animal belonging to whom; it should take water at its turn.’ (26:155; 91:13). The meaning of ‘fixing the turns’ itself is that this is not the personal property of anyone. This is for the benefit of everyone.

The land is the means of livelihood for the entire mankind; it cannot become anybody’s personal property and giving it practically under the ownership of individuals is paganism, it is kufr.

                                                                                                      .........to be continued
Regards,
Optimist
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: Ismail on January 03, 2014, 09:43:51 PM
Salaam.

Cultivated land is what is generally held as private property. Who in the world, has ever prohibited this?

Normally, the rest is either public grazing fields, or hunting grounds, or inaccessible, rocky, hilly areas. In our times especially, there is more prominence for mining, quarrying, power production, protected wild life sanctuaries, etc; outside cultivated fields.

Royal grazing grounds were, as an exception, a need of the times, in order to maintain Cavalries, etc.

Where is the clear cut evidence in the Qur'an that in the time of Salih (peace be on all God's prophets), the question was that of monopolizing of grazing grounds?

After all, in those times, this blessed globe was very thinly populated.

As for Shu'aib's daughters, they never complained, nor did anybody remark, that the herdsmen were tyrannically preventing them from watering their animals.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: optimist on January 04, 2014, 12:49:26 PM
Where is the clear cut evidence in the Qur'an that in the time of Salih (peace be on all God's prophets), the question was that of monopolizing of grazing grounds?

Actually it does not require much intelligence to know the problem of monopolizing of grazing grounds was the issue.   Just the following single verse 26:155 is sufficient to prove this point.   Prophet Salih suggested fixing up the turns of the animals irrespective of the animal belonging to whom which the monopolists objected and went even to the extent of killing the camel.   

[Mohamed Asad] Replied he: "This she-camel shall have a share of water, and you shall have a share of water, on the days appointed [therefor].

[Yousuf Ali] He said: "Here is a she-camel: she has a right of watering, and ye have a right of watering, (severally) on a day appointed.

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Cultivated land is what is generally held as private property. Who in the world, has ever prohibited this?

No wonder you mentioned “generally held as private property”.  You have to remove from your mind all pre-conceived notions to understand Quranic points. 

According to the Quran, whatever in the heavens and on earth belong to Allah alone.  The earth is the medium for the production of all means of subsistence, which are provided freely for the benefit of humanity.  Wind, water, light, heat and the earth, all of which exist for our sustenance and are freely given by Allah, should actually be left equally open for all human being.

[Muhammed Asad] For He [it is who, after creating the earth,] placed firm mountains on it, [towering] above its surface, and bestowed [so many] blessings on it, and equitably apportioned its means of subsistence to all who would seek it: [and all this He created] in four aeons. (41:10)

And the earth – We have spread it out wide, and placed on it mountains firm, and caused [life] of every kind to grow on it in a balanced manner,  and provided thereon means of livelihood for you [O men] as well as for all [living beings] whose sustenance does not depend on you (15:19-20)

And the earth has He spread out for all living beings (55:10)

Weigh, therefore, [every decision and act] with equity, and cut not the measure short!(55:9)

From the above, it should be clear that all natural resources are God given, and their purpose is to sustain the whole of humanity.  For this no one has the right to create artificial barriers and divisions and declare ownership of these resources. 

All [of them] – these as well as those – do We freely endow with some of thy Sustainer's gifts, since thy Sustainer's giving is never confined [to one kind of man] (17:20)

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In our times especially, there is more prominence for mining, quarrying, power production, protected wild life sanctuaries, etc; outside cultivated fields.

In our times, even things like mining, quarrying and power productions are privately owned and these evil forces even control governments in countries like India

Regards,
Optimist
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: Ismail on January 05, 2014, 01:03:03 AM
Salaam.

According to you, yaumwhose plural is in the Verse, means eons.

According to dictionary.reference.com, there are three meanings. Which one do you think rightly fits into the intention of the Author of Al Qur'an?

eon
noun
1. an indefinitely long period of time; age.
2. the largest division of geologic time, comprising two or more eras.
3. Astronomy . one billion years.

Nowhere is it written that banning ownership of land is a remedy for injustice.

You said, industrialists (evil forces, according to you) sometimes control governments.

Industrialists need not necessarily be evil forces.

They may even be able to pressurize governments to eschew injustice.

There is no evidence at all in the Qur'an that Moses and Saleh (Allah's peace and His choicest blessings be on all His prophets and their followers.) were deputed to fight ownership of land.

Nor does the incidence at Madyan, or the episode of Saleh, clearly and unequivocally relate to ownership of land.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait. 


Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: optimist on January 05, 2014, 03:52:39 PM
Which one do you think rightly fits into the intention of the Author of Al Qur'an?
Salaam!

I do not want to probe the “intention”…..but contextually, it is suffice to state that, wherever the word ‘yaum’ is used in the Quran it does not necessarily mean ‘day’ which is only 24 hours long….it could be time, or period, or age, or some ‘stage’ as maaliki yaumid deen (1:3). ….. and all this according to man’s calculations can be a thousand years long: summa ya’ruju ilaihi fi yaumin kaana miqdaaruhu alfa sanatin mimma tu’addoon: 32:5 obviously here yaum means either stage or era or evolutionary period; this yaum is sometime fifty thousand years long as mentioned in verse 70:4.

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Nowhere is it written that banning ownership of land is a remedy for injustice.

It is a major offence against humanity someone becoming owner of means of subsistence which are freely given by Allah for the benefit of whole humanity.  Even using our logic alone we can easily understand the issue.

1.   Land and other means of subsistence existed on earth before the creation of man. Now viewed from any angle and rule of any law based on justice, can anyone be held as an owner of these resources of subsistence (heat, light, air, water, and land) which should be available indiscriminately for the life’s sustenance.   Today you can say that you have purchased this piece of land from such and such person, or you got it from your father by way of inheritance. You go on inverting this sequence and reach that person who had first claimed this land as his own property; you can imagine that from whom he had purchased this, or from whom he had inherited?  How do you ensure that the lands obtained initially or the subsequent purchases done are devoid of any fraudulent transactions?  How it could be lawful for him or for his successors subsequently to hold it under their possession?

2.   How can you satisfactory resolve the problem of large capital attracting small capital?   The humanity is slowly moving to a direction where the land will be in the possession of small group of wealthy people.  I was to my native country last week and I notice that the land value has increased two to three folds in just one year (it is over 10-15 times in the last 5 year alone).   People with purchasing power are accumulating the land and it has become beyond the reach of more than 70% of the people in our area to purchase any land to build a house or to set up any business.  At the moment, only those who have inherited the land from their forefathers are in a safe position....but this "safety" also will be over after one generation or two because the land is getting divided into children and at one stage they will be forced to sell the land to any wealthy man (who offers more money) and divide the money among them because the share of land will be so limited to use it for any individual purpose.  A major crisis stage is slowly approaching. 

More points later.

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Industrialists need not necessarily be evil forces.

I did not say all industrialists are evil forces.  But it is just a fact that,  in all countries, only a handful of individuals and industrialists control most of the wealth of the nation.  Capitalist system is a system in which large capital attracts small capital.  The Quran has explained this problem through the following incident from prophet David (38:23-25).

Two disputants came to David and requested him to resolve their issue.  The plaintiff said - This man is my brother and he has a flock of ninety-nine ewes and is thus well to do.  I have only one which is my sole source of income.  And instead of giving up some ewes from his stock to help his poor brother, he is asking me to give my only ewe to him.  (Since he is rich and influential) He always prevails in argument (in a capitalist system such apparent contradiction can be easily justified).  This is the attitude of my brother.  Now tell me is his attitude allowable or not?  When prophet David pondered over this episode deeply, he came to the conclusion that it was a case of an extreme unjust economic system, in which large capital attracts the smaller capital.  The outcome is that the rich become richer and the poor become poorer; and gradually the gap between these two groups widens.

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Nor does the incidence at Madyan, or the episode of Saleh, clearly and unequivocally relate to ownership of land.

Even a child should be able to understand it is clearly and unequivocally relate to people controlling the natural resources and exercising ownership over them.

Regards,
Optimist
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: Ismail on January 05, 2014, 09:01:16 PM
Salaam.

What do you mean by "some ‘stage’ as maaliki yaumid deen (1:3)"?

"How do you ensure that the lands obtained initially or the subsequent purchases done are devoid of any fraudulent transactions?"

Answer: (5:101), (6:152).

"A major crisis stage is slowly approaching".

Ans: It may be either way. Trade and Commerce this! Prices may either increase or decrease. Why panic?

"This man is my brother and he has a flock of ninety-nine ewes and is thus well to do."

How did you say that?

"I have only one which is my sole source of income."

How did you know?

"And instead of giving up some ewes from his stock to help his poor brother, he is asking me to give my only ewe to him."

Such redundant remarks can throw our whole focus off the mark.

"He always prevails in argument."

He never said this.

"..he came to the conclusion that it was a case of an extreme unjust economic system, in which large capital attracts the smaller capital.."

Injustices in which a person prevails upon another in order to dupe him, should not be blamed on any one system.

"Even a child should be able to understand it is clearly and unequivocally relate to people controlling the natural resources and exercising ownership over them." 

A sturdy, good-natured male, helping out a weak, shy female at busy public water taps are a common sight to see.

What has ownership of land anything to do with this?

Water holes in deserts are not anybody's property. The insistence of Saleh on a certain sharing of water was only regarding just one particular she camel.

That it was a test preceded by water hole monopoly or land grabbing/land mafia, is neither mentioned nor clearly evident.

The injunction regarding the 'Camel of God' (91:13) was a last chance (to test their obedience), and a final ultimatum to the disobedient people of Saleh. Their disobedience has not been specified as being that of water hole monopoly.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.




 

 

 



                     
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: optimist on January 06, 2014, 03:07:07 AM

"This man is my brother and he has a flock of ninety-nine ewes and is thus well to do."

How did you say that?

How did you ask such a ridiculous question?  It is just a common sense that one person having ninety-nine ewes, when compared to another person having just one ewe, is a well to do person.

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"I have only one which is my sole source of income."

How did you know?

This is what the poor man is stating.....just a common sense way of understanding.

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"And instead of giving up some ewes from his stock to help his poor brother, he is asking me to give my only ewe to him."

Such redundant remarks can throw our whole focus off the mark.

Not necessarily.....actually as a brother, the rich man was supposed to support him instead of demanding the one and only ewe the poor man possessed.

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"He always prevails in argument."

He never said this.

(Pickthall) and he conquered me in speech 38:23
(shakir) has prevailed against me in discourse.
(Mohamed Asad) forcibly prevailed against me in this [our] dispute.
Oh sorry! qxp may be acceptable for you...."and he dominates me in eloquence”

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Injustices in which a person prevails upon another in order to dupe him, should not be blamed on any one system.

Kindly explain what system was prevailing there.

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Water holes in deserts are not anybody's property. The insistence of Saleh on a certain sharing of water was only regarding just one particular she camel.

Haha! so according to your amazing logic, they had problem with only one particular camel drinking water and they were willing to allow all other camels irrespective of to whom it belonged.  Good logic...keep it up.

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That it was a test preceded by water hole monopoly or land grabbing/land mafia, is neither mentioned nor clearly evident.

If then why prophet saleh suggested fixing up the turns of the animals??   

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The injunction regarding the 'Camel of God' (91:13) was a last chance (to test their obedience), and a final ultimatum to the disobedient people of Saleh. Their disobedience has not been specified as being that of water hole monopoly.

The final ultimatum was specifically related not to prevent the camel from drinking water.   You said "their disobedience has not been specified......"  What was their disobedience according to you???    Even any child should be able to understand that their disobedience was related to preventing the camel from drinking the water (ignoring prophet saleh‘s request to fix up turns). 

Regards
Optimist                 
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: optimist on January 06, 2014, 11:54:06 AM
Salaam brother Ismail,

The tone of some of my comments were different....sorry!  I can't edit my comments.  I kindly request you to focus on the followings;

1. Just think why prophet saleh gave an ultimatum, a final test, warning the people of dire consequences if they prevent the camel from taking water.  Prophet saleh knew that they are going to forcibly prevent the camel from taking water.  Their disobedience was linked to sharing the water (that's why saleh suggested fixing up the turns of the animals)

2. The test and the final ultimatum given by prophet saleh to the people was not linked to killing the camel, but linked to permitting the camel to drink water in her turn.

3. If there was no issue of monopolizing water sources,  the issue would have been a simple matter of a camel drinking water and there was absolutely no reason for people to make objections (no warning was even necessary).

Kindly think

Regards
Optimist
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: QM Moderators Team on January 06, 2014, 12:19:00 PM
The tone of some of my comments were different....sorry!

Dear Optimist,

We are glad that you have apologized. That is very good of you. It is best that any exchange is kept on the side of academia and not 'sarcasm'. This will keep the standards of this forum up.

Thank you!
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: Ismail on January 07, 2014, 02:28:32 AM
Salaam.

These are my thoughts on Optimist's second of the two latest posts.

(1)  Saleh insisted that his camel and their camels share water according to fixed timings. He also insisted that his camel be allowed to freely graze without undue hindrance. The ultimatum was that they should not harm it! Else, grave punishment would befall them.

The disobedience need not necessarily have been particularly linked to any previous dispute regarding sharing of water, or any dispute regarding land.

Saleh's ultimate, fateful insistence was only regarding his camel, which he called God's Camel. There is no mention of any oppressors or the oppressed regarding herds of animals belonging to different people.

(2)  Saleh, like every other prophet, invited them to single minded devotion to God in every respect.

They kept disobeying him, until the Divinely Ordained Test of God's Camel.

(3)  The issue, all along, was not at all "that of a single camel drinking water".

The issue was continuous, obstinate disobedience [as in (2)], to none other than the Almighty Himself.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: optimist on January 07, 2014, 03:29:20 PM
They kept disobeying him, until the Divinely Ordained Test of God's Camel.

Salaam!

Unfortunately, you are still unable to appreciate and grasp the real facts.   The Quran narrates different stories of people belonging to past nations and the different inequities they created in their societies.   Apart from their general disbelief in Allah and His messengers, Quran also focus on the different evils prevailed in those societies, which, altogether, ultimately led to their destruction.  The prophets came and taught them the true path guided them and warned them, however, when their rebelliousness went beyond a certain stage, they were all destroyed.   

You are focusing here on "GOD's camel" as if this particular camel was sent from the sky.  Infact everything including all camels belong to Allah.   The camel was a material symbol of God in that context and that is why it was called naqatullah (Camel of God) and ayat (sign) See 7:73. It was a symbol (lakum ayatan) to determine whether they, (the people) stuck to the agreement (will be explained below).  It also served as a final warning,  failing which they will have no opportunity to mend their ways.  They had to be sufficiently warned that they will be directly violating divine directives if they harm or prevent the camel.

Have you ever thought why they were tested with a she camel?   What is the relevance of Camel?   How it is connected to "disobedience" to Allah?  Do you think they killed the she camel because it belonged to Allah??   Do you think that the people were involed in a killing spree of whater belonged to Allah and prophet saleh just chose as a final warning a random animal as a she-camel to test them whether they would kill something belonged to Allah?

The Quran clearly states Thamud people created inequities on earth 7:73.  How??  They had shortage of water.  Whatever water was accumulated, was reserved by the big-wigs of the community for themselves and their animals and the animals of the poor died of thirst (note, the weaker sections of the population supported Saleh 7:74).  Prophet Saleh told these people that, to reserve the water for a section of the people which has been provided by God free of cost for all creations is unjust.  He warned them to desist from this path or they would be destroyed.  Thus after a lot of argument they agreed that everyone should water their animals by turn (note, in 26:155 the warning is very specific that the she camel should be allowed to drink water on its appointed day and time).  Therefore, to test their commitment to the agreement, which Saleh would let loose a she camel and see whether it was allowed by them to drink water in its turn.  If it was allowed to drink on its turn then it would mean that they were  sticking to the agreement but if they didn’t then it would mean that they had made the agreement only superficially. This is what happened and they killed the camel heartlessly.

I advise you to desist from superficial reading of the Quran.  In whatever language you try to explain the she camel and its relevance in the story of Thamud, ignoring what I stated above, you will fail miserably to give a satisfactory logical explanation.  One of the qualities of true servants of God is mentioned in the Quran as; those who when they are reminded of their Lord's verses, they do not fall on them deaf and blind (25:73).


Regards,
Optimist
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: optimist on January 07, 2014, 04:30:29 PM
In the above post, mistakenly I mentioned 7:74 instead of 7:75.  The verse states  "The chief men of his people who were arrogant said to those who were considered weak -- those among them who believed -`Do you know for certain that Salih is one sent by his Lord?' They answered, 'Surely, we believe in that which he has been sent".
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: Ismail on January 07, 2014, 05:00:21 PM
Salaam.

"The Quran clearly states Thamud people created inequities on earth 7:73.  How??  They had shortage of water.  Whatever water was accumulated, was reserved by the big-wigs of the community for themselves and their animals and the animals of the poor died of thirst (note, the weaker sections of the population supported Saleh 7:74).  Prophet Saleh told these people that, to reserve the water for a section of the people which has been provided by God free of cost for all creations is unjust.  He warned them to desist from this path or they would be destroyed.  Thus after a lot of argument they agreed that everyone should water their animals by turn (note, in 26:155 the warning is very specific that the she camel should be allowed to drink water on its appointed day and time).  Therefore, to test their commitment to the agreement, which Saleh would let loose a she camel and see whether it was allowed by them to drink water in its turn.  If it was allowed to drink on its turn then it would mean that they were  sticking to the agreement but if they didn’t then it would mean that they had made the agreement only superficially. This is what happened and they killed the camel heartlessly. "

What is in italics, is mere conjecture. The bold, indeed, is a fact. The underlined, is illogical.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: optimist on January 07, 2014, 05:43:49 PM
Salaam.

"The Quran clearly states Thamud people created inequities on earth 7:73.  How??  They had shortage of water.  Whatever water was accumulated, was reserved by the big-wigs of the community for themselves and their animals and the animals of the poor died of thirst (note, the weaker sections of the population supported Saleh 7:74).  Prophet Saleh told these people that, to reserve the water for a section of the people which has been provided by God free of cost for all creations is unjust.  He warned them to desist from this path or they would be destroyed.  Thus after a lot of argument they agreed that everyone should water their animals by turn (note, in 26:155 the warning is very specific that the she camel should be allowed to drink water on its appointed day and time).  Therefore, to test their commitment to the agreement, which Saleh would let loose a she camel and see whether it was allowed by them to drink water in its turn.  If it was allowed to drink on its turn then it would mean that they were  sticking to the agreement but if they didn’t then it would mean that they had made the agreement only superficially. This is what happened and they killed the camel heartlessly. "

What is in italics, is mere conjecture. The bold, indeed, is a fact. The underlined, is illogical.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
Salaam,

My question (without going for any argument and confining only to what you have agreed as fact) :-

Why prophet Saleh warned the people not to obstruct the she-camel drinking the water on the appointed day and time?   Why they ignored the objection and went on even to kill the camel? 

Thanks in advance for answering the question directly.

Regards
Optimist
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: optimist on January 07, 2014, 08:32:06 PM

"How do you ensure that the lands obtained initially or the subsequent purchases done are devoid of any fraudulent transactions?"

Answer: (5:101), (6:152).

Salaam! 

I missed to make a comment for the above which is linked to the subject matter of discussion.  As a answer to my above question, you are saying that it is better not to ask such questions (5:101), because probing answers for such questions may cause trouble!!   Actually it is your helplessness which is reflected here.   In fact your mind is telling you that those people who made such subsequent purchases can not be the rightful owner of land or the property in this way.   But you are afraid to admit this fact due to different reasons.   Imagine you inherit from your father, and you are not sure how he accumulated the wealth.  How can you have legal right over the wealth you receive in this way?  Suddenly all the money or wealth you receive in this way can not become white money in your hand once it is handed over to you!!

Even in any court of law in the present times, imagine you purchased some land or any property from someone, and later it was proved that this man got this through fradulent transactions or any other misrepresentations.  Even though your are quite innocent and totally unaware about such translations,  no court of law will give you legal possession.  You will be forced to return the land or the property.  The only option for you will be to claim compensation from the person from whom you purchased the same. 

However, in Islam, there is no question of giving ownership of land to individuals.  The ownership of land vests with Allah alone.    The responsibility of ensuring every member in the society gets materials for sustanance falls on the administration (11:6).  A battle between Haqq Baathil is going and in the future all systems based on giving ownership of land to the people will collapse.   In the battle between Haqq and Baathil, it is the LAW of ALLAH that only what is benefitial for the humanity will ultimately prevail (13:17). 

Regards,
Optimist
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: Ismail on January 07, 2014, 11:38:04 PM
Salaam.

Why prophet Saleh warned the people not to obstruct the she-camel drinking the water on the appointed day and time?   

Because their disobedience in that matter would mean the final showdown.

Why they ignored the objection and went on even to kill the camel?

Because they were arrogant. (7:146)

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait


Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: optimist on January 08, 2014, 11:44:07 AM

Why prophet Saleh warned the people not to obstruct the she-camel drinking the water on the appointed day and time?   

Because their disobedience in that matter would mean the final showdown.  


Why disobedience in a particular matter was tested (permitting camel drinking water on its turn)?

Why prophet saleh had to suggest fixing up of turns for animals?

Regards
Optimist
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: optimist on January 08, 2014, 08:47:41 PM
It is said in Surah Al Baqarah: ‘O Prophet (S)! these people ask you that they should be informed categorically as to what share they have for themselves and what is for others in their earnings.’ It is informed: “What is beyond your needs.” (2:219). Tell them: ‘Your share is only to the extent of fulfilling your needs.  This (quill afwa) command has solved the problem absolutely and forever. Due to this, there did not remain any surplus money with anybody, and when there did not remain any surplus money, then the problems and disasters rising due to economic unevenness came to an end. The difference between the creditor and the debtor, the house owner and the tenant, the landlord and the tenant, the industrialist and the labourer, and the rich and the poor ended

The Quran has emphatically stated that accumulation and boarding of wealth is the most heinous crime. It fuels the flames of the fire of hell and the wealth and its accumulators will get scorched and burnt therein (9:34-35). These flames will engulf the hearts of these persons (104:2-7). Despite their efforts to escape from it, it pulls them and destroys everything like the flow of lava from a volcano (70:5-18).
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: Ismail on January 09, 2014, 02:10:30 AM
Salaam.

The word al 'afv here means:

A moderate amount of good things, so that no embarrassment is caused to the giver (2:219, 2:267, 17:29, 15:67).

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: Ismail on January 09, 2014, 05:59:39 AM
Salaam.

Sorry.

The last Verse Number is not 15:67. It is 25:67.


Regrets, & Regards,

A. Ismail Sait.

Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: optimist on January 10, 2014, 01:13:35 PM
Salaam.

The word al 'afv here means:

A moderate amount of good things, so that no embarrassment is caused to the giver (2:219, 2:267, 17:29, 15:67).

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

Wasslam,

Before making any conclusion and seeking for interpretation that appeals to your logic, kindly consider the following.

Firstly, please note that what is mentioned is the verse is مَاذَا يُنْفِقُونَ, what they should spend.  They were not asking how they should spend their earnings. They were specifically asking what is their share and what is the share they have to spend.  It is like asking, imagine, I have 100 dollar, I need to know how much I can keep it for myself and how much I have to spend.   

Many Quran translators have captured the correct meaning of “Afv”, for instances,

[Yousuf Ali]  They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: "What is beyond your needs."
[Pickthall) And they ask thee what they ought to spend. Say: that which is superfluous.
[Shabbir] They ask you what they should give, Say “all that is surplus”
[Parwez] Say: all that is surplus to your needs (this will be done when the Quranic order is established and takes upon itself the responsibility to provide means of sustenance to all)

Here is some brief notes taken from Lughat-ul-Quran from Parwez duscussing the word afwu

Ain, fa,wao

Afwun literally means ‘to give up’; afa unhu means allowed him to go without punishment; i.e. forgave him [Muheet and Taj]; the Quran uses the words afwun and safhun together in one sentence 2:109 the difference between these two words is that the word safhun is quite comprehensive i.e. to allow to go scot free but in afwun it is possible that some advice may be given [Taj]; the author of Muheet says the difference between  afwun and maghfiratun is  that in ghufranun there is no punishment whatsoever while afwun can take place before or after the punishment.  Afwun; after the punishment would mean to dismiss the effects of the punishment; because afwun also means to obliterate; and  maghirratun means to protect from the effects of punishment from the beginning; afwun as said means to obliterate or be obliterated;

The book Sahaa says that afwul maal means the wealth that is more than one’s expenses; aatai-tuhu afwul maal means I  gave him wealth without his asking for it{Taj}; Ibn Faris has supported this meaning; al-afwu minal maal means the water that is remaining after everyone has drunk to his fill and there is no heart burning and resistance to having it;  afa alaihi fil ilm means he surpassed him in knowledge and added to his knowledge;   

Therefore afwu means more than needed; the Quran says these people inquire as to how much should they keep for themselves and how much should  they spend towards the sustenance of others; 2:219 the answer is qul afwu i.e. tell them whatever is more than their needs;  this is the true principal of Islamic sustenance;  i.e. every individual in society should strive as hard as he can and keep for himself only that which he needs and spend the rest for the betterment of society;  as against this, the capitalist system is based on spare wealth or surplus money but  in a Quranic system spare wealth cannot remain with any individual because it is handed over for the sustenance of others; all individuals are looked after by the system for their needs and individuals hand over their surplus money to the system  or the state and as such nobody dies of hunger and nobody possess extra wealth.

Al-aafiyatu wal mu-afaat means to protect from harm from others; or to be protected from diseases and misery [Taj];   Ibn aseer says this sentence means that people are made independent of each other or that nobody is dependent on another; to protect one from the harmful effects of another; so that nobody depends on you and you do not depend on anyone else ; al-mu-affi means the man who stays with you but does not expect anything from you; [Taj]; aatai-tuhu afwa means he gave him without asking; also afwun means the best thing; plus the thing which does not require any tribulation or effort in acquiring [Taj].

Regards,
Optimist
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: Ismail on January 11, 2014, 07:32:01 PM
Salaam.

Parvez is very selective when he quotes Classic lexicographers, especially, in areas of special interest.

Then he embarks on lengthy expositions of his own inferences.

I do possess Parvez's four volume Urdu Lugathul Qur'an, which, a friend of mine who happened to travel to Pakistan, got for me from Lahore, back in the early 1990s.

So, let me also select a few lines from Lane's Lexicon, Page 2094, under the sub heading 'Afvun (noun), that seem to favor the Verses that I had referred to, and, attested to, by the Classics, Sihah, Tajul 'Aroos, Al Qamoos, and Asas of Al Zamakhshari:

...take what is redundant from me, seeking the continuance of my affection...(from a poem), Expend thou what is redundant, and abundant;

(7:198) = Take thou, (O Prophet,) what is easily obtained from the dispositions of men. ....I gave him spontaneously without being constrained (by the taker)....that which comes to the taker easily....

Howsoever, A Qur'an is our ultimate guide. (2:219, 2:267, 7:198, 17:29, 25:67).

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: optimist on January 12, 2014, 01:14:21 PM
Salaam!

As for me, not really convincing brother Ismail.   This is an issue of paradigm shift and I can not go for extensive discussion here.   If you can post your email address I will give you enough material to read.  This is a vast subject.   Let me still address one point (in short) which I understand as a major issue reflected in the verses you have quoted.

One general fundemental objection is that, if we are not allowed to save surplus money, if private acquisition is forbidden what becomes of precepts such as sadaqaat, the commands to take care of orphans, poor relatives, the weak and vulnerable sections of the society, and the poor? Indeed, what of the laws of inheritance?? Will these teachings, all of which appear frequently and are given much attention in the Quran, not become obsolete? Does the fact that these teachings are preserved in the Quran not suggest that Allah does allow private acquisition and hoarding after all?  A question may also be asked, whether verses like 9:34 that prohibits hoarding, and the verse 9:35 which states that the hoarded wealth of such people will be melted in the fires of hell and used to brand them, are just superficial in nature.

Actually the Quran adopts a gradualist approach to reforming human society to bring it in line with its ideal.  On the one hand it brings about a psychological change in the people and on the other it creates an atmosphere in which the individual feels increasingly secure in the knowledge that giving away his possessions will not put him in danger.   It states, 'Behold, God has bought of the believers their lives and their possessions promising them paradise in return' (9:111). 

In short, all Quranic instructions on subjects such as alms-giving and charity, trade, lending, borrowing, inheritance, etc. may be considered part of the first phase when a society begins to change and when new circumstances and challenges arise, the laws pertaining to the first phase are obviously no longer applicable, and they effectively recede to the background. The fact is that these laws are conditional, i.e. they are concerned with the specific condition of a given society.   To tell you a few examples, there are many laws relating to freeing of slaves, marrying them and having sexual relation with them, and all these laws are not applicable when a society becomes free of slaves.    Similarly when administration makes arrangements to provide loans to people, then private lending will obviously become obsolete and the Quranic instructions regarding individual loans will no longer enforced.  The quranic injunction allowing individual to use find sand for ablution instead of water before prayer may become operative in a city where what is easily available, but injunction is never abrogated, in case it becomes necessary to apply it again in the future.   In this regard, let me focus on laws of inheritance bit more.

Laws of inheritance:-

The Quran does not actually accept the system in which people merely inheriting the wealth from their parents as an ideal system to be followed perpetually (i.e not having earned wealth through one's own labour...and actually such kind of inheritance is a sign and basic feature of capitalist system that creates and perpetuates the rich-poor divide), and hence the Quran states "And you devour inheritance with greed" (89:19).  This verse clearly shows that according to Quran, the laws relating to inheritance were applicable in the early phase of the divine system.  Given that inheritance is identified with selfishness and greed, how can it be considered ideal in a true Islamic state?  One of the fundamental principles of Islam is human equality, and yet in practice we also accept divides in every department of human life, as though they were natural and inevitable.  Hence for example, whilst we say that the son of a man with title "Syed" should not expect to be treated differently just because the title implies he is descended from the prophet's family, we never think to apply the same rule to a millionaire's son.  Simply by virtue of being born in a millionaire's house, the son receives all the privileges (with complete legal right) that come with such wealth, even though he has done nothing to contribute to those millions, even though no one knows how the millionaire has amassed the wealth.  He can buy anything, including status, and this is perfectly accepted. How can this be tolerated when in Islam all men are supposed to be equal regardless of birth?  The Quranic laws on inheritance thus only apply until the divine system of sustenance is full established, until the state takes up the responsibility to ensure that all the needs of all the people are met.  Once this system is fully established, we will find that just as our prophet never left anything behind as inheritance, the society that follows his example will likewise not continue tradition of inheritance.

Regards,
Optimist

Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: Ismail on January 13, 2014, 02:28:37 AM
Salaam.

No one has ever said that (9:34-35) are superfluous. Only, that we should not relegate to safe-keeping, the good things that we can conveniently part with in order to help others.

(9:111) does not abrogate the above meaning.

(89:19-20) are about devouring (appropriating) all inheritance, with greed, and, loving wealth with inordinate love.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: optimist on January 13, 2014, 02:38:17 AM
Only, that we should not relegate to safe-keeping, the good things that we can conveniently part with in order to help others.
Salaam!

I believe you partly agree with me hoarding of wealth will not be allowed in a true divine system.  According to the traditional view, we can hoard as much as we wish under any circumstances, but if we give 2.5% of it annually as zakaat, then this makes the rest of our wealth halaal (permissible).  The verse 9:35 alone is sufficient to show that the traditional understanding of zakaat is completely wrong.

Regards,
Optimist
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: Ismail on January 13, 2014, 03:19:02 AM
Salaam.

2.5%, of course, is History.

But, which is the source of: "our prophet never left anything behind as inheritance"?

And, what is: "true divine system"?

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: optimist on January 13, 2014, 08:00:29 PM
But, which is the source of: "our prophet never left anything behind as inheritance"?

There are several reports....it is almost well known among scholars.....The following is reported from hadiths (please note, I am quoting these hadiths just as historical reports, which can be either accepted or rejected based on other supporting evidences).   I will be providing you some other sources later to corraborate.

Sunni Source:

Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 51, Number 3: Narrated Talha bin Musarrif: I asked 'Abdullah bin Abu Aufa "Did the Prophet make a will?" He replied, "No," I asked him, "How is it then that the making of a will has been enjoined on people, (or that they are ordered to make a will)?" He replied, "The Prophet bequeathed Allah's Book (i.e. Quran)."

Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 51, Number 37: Narrated Abu Huraira:  Allah's Apostle said, "My heirs will not inherit a Dinar or a Dirham (i.e. money), for whatever I leave (excluding the adequate support of my wives and the wages of my employees*) is given in charity."

*No comments for the things put in brackets since I can’t understand the logic in putting things in bracket when a Hadith is narrated...things in brackets can only be logically the assumption of the reporter!!

Shia Source:

‘Ali ibn Ibrahim narrates from his father, from Hammad ibn ‘Isa, on the authority of [‘Abdullah ibn Maymun] al-Qaddah that Abu ‘Abdillah [Imaam Ja‘far as-Sadiq] said: Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessing of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever walks a path seeking therein knowledge, Allaah will lead him on a road to Jannah... And the ‘Ulama are the heirs of the Prophets; and the Prophets did not leave dinars and dirhams as inheritance; but they left knowledge. Therefore whosoever takes knowledge has taken a great portion.”
[al-Kafi, Kitab Fadl al-‘Ilm, Bab Sifat al-‘Ilm wa-Fadlihi, hadeeth no. 2]

Quote
And, what is: "true divine system"?

By true divine system I meant a society in which the true Laws of Allah (not supposedly true laws) are implemented and practiced.

Regards,
Optimist
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: Ismail on January 14, 2014, 12:41:22 AM
Salaam.

If some historian says that in such and such a society the people were not in the habit of bequeathing anything to their progeny, and if experts find the report History-worthy, that will be accepted as something worthy of consideration.

But, if, in a society consisting of millions upon millions, if somebody reports - be the report considered ever so authentic - about the action of one or two people, that they did not bequeath, it means nothing.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: optimist on January 14, 2014, 02:57:10 AM
If in a society cosisting of millions and millions with millions of reports about one person, as to how this person was, his actions, his habits, his sayings, with no reports about this person bequeathing anything to his progeny, and a few reports that he did not beqeath anything to his progeny, it mean BIG.
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: Sword on January 14, 2014, 05:52:42 PM
Dear brother Optimist,


Salamun Alaykum and thanks for your posts.


You share:

In the divine system neither the land nor its resources can be taken into private ownership. These are left open for the benefit of all (41:10)


The Land belongs to Allah alone :-

To state this fact, the Quran has quoted an event of the people of Thamud. It states that cattle-rearing was the means of livelihood of the people of Thamud. There were open grazing lands and water points in the surroundings, but the leaders of that nation had kept them under their individual control. Due to this, cattle of the weaker sections used to remain hungry and thirsty. Prophet Saleh raised voice against the oppression and violence of those chiefs who asked him as to what he wanted finally. He replied: ‘I want that as this land belongs to Allah, it is neither yours nor mine, and these cattle are also created by Him. Therefore, these animals should have freedom to graze on the land of their Allah. In what way you have the right that you fix up boundaries on arzullah (land of Allah) this way that His creatures cannot cross the boundaries fixed by you on His land (7:73; 11:64).

The land is the means of livelihood for the entire mankind; it cannot become anybody’s personal property and giving it practically under the ownership of individuals is paganism, it is kufr.


You also share:

According to the Quran, whatever in the heavens and on earth belong to Allah alone.  The earth is the medium for the production of all means of subsistence, which are provided freely for the benefit of humanity.  Wind, water, light, heat and the earth, all of which exist for our sustenance and are freely given by Allah, should actually be left equally open for all human being.

[Muhammed Asad] For He [it is who, after creating the earth,] placed firm mountains on it, [towering] above its surface, and bestowed [so many] blessings on it, and equitably apportioned its means of subsistence to all who would seek it: [and all this He created] in four aeons. (41:10)

And the earth – We have spread it out wide, and placed on it mountains firm, and caused [life] of every kind to grow on it in a balanced manner,  and provided thereon means of livelihood for you [O men] as well as for all [living beings] whose sustenance does not depend on you (15:19-20)

And the earth has He spread out for all living beings (55:10)

Weigh, therefore, [every decision and act] with equity, and cut not the measure short!(55:9)

From the above, it should be clear that all natural resources are God given, and their purpose is to sustain the whole of humanity.  For this no one has the right to create artificial barriers and divisions and declare ownership of these resources.


Reading the above from you, and considering all your points, I want to ask you a question. Do you think every person on earth should be given all the rights to travel or migrate to any country/part of the world without requiring a visa and a passport? Because you know, it is not always easy and not always allowed to go to a certain country because of the so-called rules of the government of that particular country. Please share your thoughts on this.


Regards.
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: optimist on January 14, 2014, 10:36:13 PM
Dear brother Optimist,

Salamun Alaykum

Wa'alaikumussalam

Quote
considering all your points, I want to ask you a question. Do you think every person on earth should be given all the rights to travel or migrate to any country/part of the world without requiring a visa and a passport? Because you know, it is not always easy and not always allowed to go to a certain country because of the so-called rules of the government of that particular country. Please share your thoughts on this.

When you say "any country/part of the world" it is again creation of aritificial boundaries, however, if an islamic state is established at any particular geographical area, it becomes necessary to follow regulations of other countries (visa, passport etc) to travel to such countries.  We also have even examples of prophet and his companions entering into different agreements (based on different situations) with others during the initial stage of establishing islamic society.

I hope I understood your question correctly

Regards
Optimist
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: Sword on January 14, 2014, 11:56:50 PM
Peace be upon you, brother Optimist.


Let me ask you my question one more time by giving an example.


For a moment, think that you live in country X and this country is in control of a tyrant where it's citizens are oppressed and badly afflicted with misfortune. Living in this country is a danger to you and you are always in a constant state of worry that you could get killed anytime. Also think that you are poor. Now after suffering for a few years, you have decided to leave this country and go somewhere else at least to escape from this tyranny. It doesn't matter whether you migrate to an Islamic country or a non-Islamic country, your main concern is just to get out of here. But unfortunately, you can't because you are poor. So just because you don't have money, you won't get a visa for migration and you would be forced to stay behind the borders of the country of the tyrant ruler. But there are others who have money and they can make their moves to migrate by easily getting a visa to another country and save their lives and that of their children.


You, yourself, have said that the world belongs to God. Therefore, do you think it is fair that only the rich ones can travel around the lands of God to protect themselves and to seek it's bouties, and the poor ones can't and are only forced to stay inside the borders of the tyrant ruler and suffer when all the lands belong to God?


Why such an ill discrimination between the rich and the poor? Is such a manner of treatment in line with Quranic teachings?



Regards.
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: optimist on January 15, 2014, 03:13:32 AM
Therefore, do you think it is fair that only the rich ones can travel around the lands of God to protect themselves and to seek it's bouties, and the poor ones can't and are only forced to stay inside the borders of the tyrant ruler and suffer when all the lands belong to God?
Wassalam,

The Quran has described a similar situation in history, namely that Pharaoh.   Pharoah enslaved his people until Moses came for their rescue (the history you know already). 

(Pharaoh) said: “I am the sustainer (Rabb) all- Highest! (79:24).  In other words, other than claiming divinity, he claimed he was meeting the needs of his people, hence “sustainer” – Rabb).  Pharoah further stated that since the land and the rivers of Egypt were in his control and his system administered them, this justified his claim that he was people’s sustainer (43:51).  He also presented a similar claim before Moses and made a point of reminding Moses that the royal household had raised him as one of their own, but the reply from Moses revealed the fundamental difference between the Pharoah’s system of rule and that of Allah’s. 

[Moses replied -  as of the favour of which you tauntingly remind me  (was it not) due to your having enslaved the children of Israel? (26:22).

I hope you can find the links here that answer your question.   In short, it shall be the collective responsibility of all Muslims to fight against such oppressors.   One of the responsibilities Allah has entrusted Muslims is to watch over the activities of other people of the world (to see that no nation/people is oppressing the others) 2:143 لِتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ

Regards,
Optimist
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: Ismail on January 16, 2014, 06:55:14 PM
Salaam.

After a pause, let me now go back, and deal with some of the remaining backlog.

Meaning, for example, your oft-repeated remark, as to how else can we explain the choice of a camel, and its turn to drink water, other than, that, Tyrants were appropriating the scarce and most precious - gift of God to All Mankind - to themselves and their sycophants, thus preventing the masses from their equal share in God's freely given bounty.

After fully agreeing, that, in public water holes everyone has a right to water, I humbly beg to submit another explanation to God's choice of only a single camel and appointing its turn to drink water.

First of all, if it were primarily a question of forcibly preventing the common folk to water their camels, God's ultimatum could have been to stop such discrimination, lest a calamity befall them! This is simple and straight forward, and eliminates the ubiquitous Camel-Symbolism altogether.

Even today, wherever water is not over-abundant, people's life, especially in villages, and I am witness - for, I have been moving my residence too often, from city to village, and vice verse since more than three decades now - people's life, both physically, and emotionally, revolves round the village bore-well. Traditional private and public wells have all dried up.

Almost every day, there is some skirmish or the other at the bore-well, in my village.

Even as this thread was progressing, there have been at least three major showdowns.

Among them was the episode of one impatient boy in his late teens, caught, and beaten up by about ten women!!

Today, again, four sturdy men beat up another impatient, well-built man!

A somewhat similar-or-not-thing we have also noted in the episode of Moses and the young women at the water-hole.

But there is neither a Women's Lib, nor any Tyrant or American or Indian capitalist around here.

In short, a feasible argument can be this:

A water hole is a universal testing ground to gauge the patience and stability of folks.

This explains it's selection for the Divine Test.

Another point is regarding the condemnation of Capitalism, on the plea that it is based on surplus wealth.

How can any business, big or small, make any progress, without capital? A small farmer saves money in small amounts regularly in order to buy a pair of bullocks, or a pregnant cow. Similarly, a big businessman collects money to expand his business, and regularly saves large amounts in banks. Terms like Capitalism, Communism, etc have many definitions. Let us be wary of using them.

Amassing, and saving are two different things, just like eating, and devouring are.

Everybody condemns amassing of wealth, and devouring of food.

Not so, saving, and eating.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: optimist on January 17, 2014, 04:43:05 PM
First of all, if it were primarily a question of forcibly preventing the common folk to water their camels, God's ultimatum could have been to stop such discrimination, lest a calamity befall them! This is simple and straight forward, and eliminates the ubiquitous Camel-Symbolism altogether.
Salaam,

I respectfully strongly disagree with your analysis.   The God's ultimatum with 'camel symbolism' served just as a final warning and last opportunity for them to mend their ways.   This final test fully justified punishment on them and this test was given after prophet saleh took all efforts to stop the discrimination.   We have a similar example in Lot's people.  Lot kept on advising his people against their evil way of life, and their punishment was fully justified when the messengers came to visit Lot (notice how desperately Lot was trying to make people understand the seriousness of the situation and he had to shield the messengers from the people), and this final test served as a final chance for them, however, unfortunately, they failed in this test which led to their destruction.

Quote
In short, a feasible argument can be this:
A water hole is a universal testing ground to gauge the patience and stability of folks.
This explains it's selection for the Divine Test.

I can agree with you water scarcity is a general issue faced at many places in the world.   However, you must understand that the various examples and stories narrated in the Quran is for the purpose of teaching the people different lessons from the history (a fact repeatedly mentioned in the Quran).   It is here the issue of monopolyzing water resources explained in the story of Thamud is relevant.   The lesson we should know this example is that it is a crime against humanity to monopolize water resources which is freely provided by Allah for the benefit and sustenance of all humanity.  You may notice the solution prophet saleh suggests to permit animals to take water based on their turns.  Thats it.  See how beautifully Quran provides solutions for the water shortage and this is the practical procedure that should be implemented by all people, permitting people to take water on their turn without giving any undue previledge for anyone (or to set a procedure for all the people to have equal opportunity to take water to meet their needs).   No one shall have right to monopolize the water resources.

Quote
Another point is regarding the condemnation of Capitalism, on the plea that it is based on surplus wealth.
How can any business, big or small, make any progress, without capital? A small farmer saves money in small amounts regularly in order to buy a pair of bullocks, or a pregnant cow. Similarly, a big businessman collects money to expand his business, and regularly saves large amounts in banks. Terms like Capitalism, Communism, etc have many definitions. Let us be wary of using them.

You are discussing under the premises where people doing business to make a  profit.   However, when Quran leaves no room for the acquisition of surplus wealth and when it comes to fulfilling needs, the system assumes responsibility, the Quranic system will give no opportunities to anyone to either keep the surplus or privately spend the surplus for any investment.   The surplus will be under the collective possession of the people and investments will be made by the state taking into account the needs of the people.

In fact we tend to hoard only because we fear that when we grow old and can no longer earn, we may not be able to provide for ourselves and our children (2:266).  In a manmade system people will have to save money for their own security and also to secure and protect thier business interests because the responsibility to meet the needs of the people and to lead a dignified life rests on the people.   However such a thought should not even enter the mind if we are living in a system that takes care of our needs and the needs of our children and everyone.   In fact, it is the fear of future insecurity that compels people to hoard.  That’s why Quran has said;

Satan threatens you with the prospect of poverty and bids you to be miserly (2:268)

Conversely the Islamic system eliminates all fear of insecurity since it gurantees sustenance to all of humanity; ….whereas God promises you His forgiveness and bounty.  (2:268). 

Just look very closer to the above verses.   The Quran has explained the difference between a manmade system and a divine system in just a few words.  In the former every individual is responsible for meeting the needs and in this kind of society everyone lives in fear and insecurity.   It is this insecurity that is the underlying root of the need to hoard to the grave (102:1-2).  In the latter system the responsibility of taking care of every individual and to make them enable to lead a dignified life rests with the administration.   

At this stage we might also justly predict the end of business that exists to make profit.  In fact, the very concept of business itself will have changed.  At such a time those who produce goods and services will continue to do so, however,  the ‘business’ as we now understand will come to mean the facilities which distribute goods and services.    The investment will be a collective investment for the benefit of all based on different needs.  In this divine system an individual knows if he is faced with a crisis, the system will fully support him and he will not be left alone to deal with it himself.  He is saved from worrying about anything.  He is no longer anxious about his livelihood, the upkeep of his children, their education, his and his family medical bills, accommodation, etc.  It is always material insecurities that make people fear for the future and continually divert their creative energies and prevent them from fulfilling their potential.   Otherwise humanity has almost no limit in its power and creative potential.  A society of this type will be an unstoppable force.

Regards,
Optimist
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: Ismail on January 17, 2014, 05:21:40 PM
Salaam.

Read (15:57-60). It is clearly mentioned that the punishment of Lot's people was preordained. I mean the messengers came with the express purpose of destroying them.

The uttermost heinous attitude of the people towards the messengers at that juncture, served to silence Lot against pleading for them, the way Abraham pleaded for them before.

There is no clear-cut evidence in Al Qur'an that we should not reasonably save anything for future use.

Only, it should not be at the cost of God's displeasure in any way whatsoever, like earning by wrong means, or not spending reasonably well in the way of God.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: optimist on January 17, 2014, 10:12:50 PM
The uttermost heinous attitude of the people towards the messengers at that juncture, served to silence Lot against pleading for them, the way Abraham pleaded for them before.
Salaam,

While I admit that the punishment for Lot's people was pre-ordained in the sense that their rebelliousness was a point of no return,  which is very clear from Quran itself when it says, "sincerely, by your life (O Muhammad), in their wild intoxication, they were wandering blindly"(15:72),  I strongly OBJECT your comment that this incident intended to serve to silence Lot against pleading for them.  I sincerely believe there is nothing in the Quran Lot pleaded for his people.  Even at the last stage prophet Lot was telling his people "And fear Allah and disgrace me not"(15:69).  It is clear from this that, had the people listened to him and feared Allah at that crucial stage, the punishment would been avoided.   That is why I said it served as a last warning.   Before Allah completely annihilate a community, the people will be given a last opportunity, and this is not to silence the person who warns them, but to silence the people from coming up with any excuse or justification later (including during the day of judgment) that they were not sufficiently warned.   This is also a common sense way of handling the criminals and those who violate laws in every society.   You are making me focus on an issue not so important focusing things like, whether it was to silence the warner or to silence the people.  By the way, do you think that the camel warning was meant to silence prophet Saleh??   

Anyhow, please let us focus on the main points.  I will be posting some comments later, insha allah

Regards,
Optimist
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: Ismail on January 18, 2014, 01:43:24 AM
Salaam.

There was neither any room to listen to pleas, nor any need whatsoever for a test. They were warned enough by Lot.

Before coming to Lot, they conveyed the decision to Abraham (God's choicest blessings be on all His prophets), that a torment is coming to the people of Lot, and that it is not to be turned back. See: (11:76).

As for my remark that the uttermost heinous attitude of Lot's people at that juncture only served to silence Lot against pleading for them, it is, clearly, my personal observation, which, in fact, spontaneously flowed from my pen, and has no "motive(s)" behind it. It will be clear to any Qur'anist (2:121) that it is only the personal observation of the writer.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: optimist on January 18, 2014, 02:54:23 AM
Before coming to Lot, they conveyed the decision to Abraham (God's choicest blessings be on all His prophets), that a torment is coming to the people of Lot, and that it is not to be turned back. See: (11:76).
Salaam!

According to me there is no contradiction in what you say and what I stated.   It was pre-ordained in the sense it was too late for the people to abandon their evil ways because, as testified by Quran itself, they were wandering blindly in evil.  Therefore their destruction was already confirmed.  However, if you argue that if the people had listened to the warning from Lot to while the messengers were with him to "fear Allah and disgrace me not"(15:69),  even then they could not have avoided the punishment, I respectfully do not wish to argue with you further on this point.  You are free to understand the point in the way you understand.  This is not a major issue of contention.   I stick to my point that the last warning served to silence the people from coming up with any blame or argument against Lot  and the punishment they received.  In other words, by this incident, the punishment was fully justified against them.

Quote
There is no clear-cut evidence in Al Qur'an that we should not reasonably save anything for future use.

I do not know what you meant by "clear-cut" evidence.  I already explained the point that, once an Islamic system is established,  the system/ administration will take care the responsibility of taking care of every individual in order to enable them to lead a dignified life in this world free from fear or shortage of food.  And whatever laws in the Quran concerning sadakaat, helping the needy,  inheritance, etc were meant to serve the intrim period.   Kindly check following verses.

(They) amass (wealth) and thereupon withhold (it upon others). Indeed man is born with a restless disposition (70:18-19) (Restless (haluan) in Arabic means one whose hunger for acquisition is unending)

He who amasses wealth and counts it a safeguard thinking that his wealth will make him live foreever! (104:2-3)

And you devour the inheritance with devouring greed (89:19)

You are obsessed with greed for more and more until you go down to your graves 102:1-2

Behold! God has bought of the believers their lives and their possessions, promising them paradise in return 9:111

O YOU who have attained to faith! Shall I point out to you a bargain that will save you from grievous suffering [in this world and in the life to come]? You are to believe in God and His Apostle, and to strive hard in God's cause with your possessions and your lives: this is for your own good – if you but knew it! (64:10-11)

They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: "What is beyond your needs." (2:219)

As for all who lay up treasures of gold and silver and do not spend them for the sake of God, give them the tiding of grievous suffering. 9:34

Regards,
Optimist
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: Ismail on January 18, 2014, 04:26:12 AM
Salaam.

Our duties towards parents, kindred, orphans, destitute, indigents, neighbors, stranded travelers, subordinates, etc, remain fresh and well entrenched, governments notwithstanding.

These belong to the Universal Commandments of God - the Spiritual Legacy of All Mankind.

No temporal government can substitute the individual in this in any way whatsoever.

Of course, when a society, as a whole, leans towards goodness, these individual duties can get a bit easier.

However, invariably, in any case, every individual is to be fully tested in every way regarding his divinely ordained individual responsibilities. No government can take over any of these responsibilities from the individual.

Rights of ownership are not unislamic.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: optimist on January 18, 2014, 01:52:58 PM
Quote
Our duties towards parents, kindred, orphans, destitute, indigents, neighbors, stranded travelers, subordinates, etc, remain fresh and well entrenched, governments notwithstanding.


Quote
However, invariably, in any case, every individual is to be fully tested in every way regarding his divinely ordained individual responsibilities. No government can take over any of these responsibilities from the individual.
Salaam,

I did not say it is also a government responsibility to love your parents, to treat them with kindness,  praying for them,  talking to them with nice words, etc.   When an islamic society is established, the role of individuals will be different with regard to taking care of orphans, destitute, indigents, neighbors, stranded travelers.  It will be minus incurring financial responsibility by themselves.  Islamic society will take care of their needs.  They will lead a dignified life without under the support of any individual.

You are focusing on individual responsibilities as if no society should collectively take measures to arrange for the needy, the poor, the destitute, etc.   You may have enough financial capability to support your father and therefore may be in a position to give them better food, medical treatment, etc (it may be that they do not need to depend on you).  Also you may have sufficient resources to take care of orphans, destitute, indigents, neighbors, stranded travelers, etc.   THIS IS NOT SO WITH MAJORITY OF PEOPLE IN THE WORLD.   Majority finds it difficult to meet  even their minimum needs.   Even those who have sufficient means live in fear of poverty, loss of business, loss of jobs, etc.   Even those who have desire to take care of the needy, they are unable to do so because they have enough responsibility to take care of their own needs.  This is even affecting relationships in the world, even inside a family.  Even if you think logically (taking into account different examples around you) you will notice that a system which entrust responsibility on individuals to take care of orphans, destitutes, indigents, stranded travelers, sick and poor can not be an ideal system.  All problems have to be tackled collectively through a central system.

By the way, I read in yesterday's news paper, one indian family in Saudi Arabic who had been living reasonably good life, recently a baby was born for them premature birth (6 months) and the baby had to be admitted in the hospital prolonged period of time.  They received a hospital bill of 35000 USD and the hospital detained the baby without release until they pay the bill, however the family can not afford such huge bill.  They were forced to approach many charitable organisations (in a way forced to beg).   Please focus your mind and think about different inequities happening in the society.  I do not want to type more, however, just saying that this is not the social and economic system Islam introduces as an ideal system.   Just to tell you an incident from the pages of history about Khalifa Omar to let you know how they lived a collective life.

......Umar, the Caliph arrived to lead the prayers. He said his preliminary prayer and then proceeded to deliver  his address to the congregation. He began by reciting some verses from the Holy Quran. Then addressing  the congregation he said "Now listen".  A young man from the congregation stood up to say, "We will not listen to you, until you give us the  explanation that you owe to us."  The people were startled at this audacious interference. Umar paused for a moment, and then turning to  the young man said, "Explanation for what?" The young man said "The other day each one of us obtained a piece of cloth from the Baitul Mal. Today I  find two pieces of cloth on the person of the Caliph. I want to know what right had the Caliph to get a  share twice the share of an ordinary Muslim?"  Before Umar could explain Abdullah the son of Umar rose up and said, "Friends, the truth of the matter is  that like every other person my father and myself obtained a piece of cloth each from the Baitul Mal. My  father is so tall that the piece of cloth that he got from the Baitul Mal did not suffice him. So I gave him my  piece of the cloth".  This explanation satisfied every one. The young man who had interrupted the Caliph said, "We are  satisfied. You can now proceed with your address. We will listen to you and, obey your commands."

Finally, while I agreeing with you that, taking care of the needy is the Universal Commandments of God,  please note, God does not want to create perpetual rich and poor inequity in a society.  If we follow the true teaching of God we will be able to completely eradicate poverty in the world, everyone will live with a dignified life under the protection of a system, without being under the support of any individual.

Regards,
Optimist
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: Ismail on January 18, 2014, 07:02:50 PM
Salaam.

Our focus is not towards "completely eradicating poverty".

Our focus is to be good to parents, kindred, orphans, the destitute, the indigents, neighbors who are near, other neighbors, the person beside us (in a vehicle, in the workplace, etc.), our subordinates, etc. in that order. [this is a rough estimate based on (4:36)], to the best of our ability.

At the same time, we are to always be reminding each other regarding these responsibilities. And these responsibilities entail patience and stability. (90:17, 103:3). These two Verses draw the picture of our Prophet's society, for us to emulate.

When a society follows God's Commandments, it is gifted by the Almighty God, with a good government. Any good government does not claim to be shouldering the individual's responsibilities.

'Umar may have been a good administrator. Beyond that, we cannot praise him, because he, fortunately, administered a people who had already been subjected to the everlasting spell (if I may say so) of Al Qur'an. Who had already been at peace with themselves, and with everyone else. Who would keep God's Commandments, Umar, or no Umar!

Of course, 'Umar may b entitled to some credit.

But the society which he administered, should get more credit.

The individuals- the members of that society - who were focused on the Spiritual Legacy of All Mankind, should get even greater credit.

Salat, that molded, and cultivated such exemplary personalities, must get the most credit.

Finally, and ultimately, all credit belongs to God, who never asked us to focus on securing Power in order to create a State!

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: optimist on January 18, 2014, 09:29:26 PM
Our focus is not towards "completely eradicating poverty".

Our focus is to be good to parents, kindred, orphans, the destitute, the indigents, neighbors who are near, other neighbors, the person beside us (in a vehicle, in the workplace, etc.), our subordinates, etc. in that order. [this is a rough estimate based on (4:36)], to the best of our ability.

At the same time, we are to always be reminding each other regarding these responsibilities. And these responsibilities entail patience and stability. (90:17, 103:3). These two Verses draw the picture of our Prophet's society, for us to emulate.
Salaam!

Actually you have not properly appraised Allah's sytem. 

The verses you have quoted, and giving too much focus in your posts, are related to initial stage where emphasis and instructions were focussed on individuals.   However in the second stage the instructions were changed.  Let me tell you how.

(9:103) خُذْ مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ صَدَقَةً "Take alms <sadaqqat out of their wealth"

Here the prophet was asked to collect the charities (sadaqaat) himself (9:103), and to spend the items thus collected, for the welfare of the society as detailed in Surah Al Tawbah (9:60).

إِنَّمَا الصَّدَقَاتُ لِلْفُقَرَاءِ وَالْمَسَاكِينِ وَالْعَامِلِينَ عَلَيْهَا وَالْمُؤَلَّفَةِ قُلُوبُهُمْ وَفِي الرِّقَابِ وَالْغَارِمِينَ وَفِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ وَابْنِ السَّبِيلِ فَرِيضَةً مِنَ اللَّهِ وَاللَّهُ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ

The alms <sadaqqat are only for the poor and the needy, and for those employed in connections therewith, and for those whose hearts are to be reconciled, and for the freeing of slaves, and for those in debt, and for the cause of God, and for the wayfarer -- an ordinance from God. And God is All-Knowing, Wise.(9:60)

Notice instruction for collective distribution of sadakaat rather than focusing on individual actions (Note: These items of expenditure for sadaqqat, have been mistaken for zakaat).   As per the above verse, even the remuneration for those who are entrusted with collection and distribution has to be paid from this fund.  The point must be clear now.

In the initial stage, the focus was on individual action, now it has changed to collective action.   In the initial stage it was instructed that If the debtor is penniless give him time till it becomes convenient for him to repay the loan, and if he is not in a position to pay back the loan, then forego the loan (2:280).   Now it is commanded: ‘Give credit to Allah’. (57:18; 73:20) i.e., ‘When the Central Authority of your system [i.e. when the Prophet appeals for fulfilment of any common need, whatever is possible by anyone, that should be given to him. The Central Authority will spend this ‘loan’ towards items for your protection, and after sometime, when your society becomes strong and this new system gets fully established, then whatever you have given now as loan ‘to Allah’, you will get this back completely.’ (8:60). But at this moment if you show miserliness, then you will destroyed; therefore do not purchase destruction by your own hand.’ (2:195). What kind of this destruction or extinction will it be? You will get erased, and your place will be taken up by some other nation, which will not be like you (47:38).

The Final stage:

This stage was the focus of my discussion under this thread.   I do not want to go for repeatitive post.   To tell you about this stage in short words, this is a stage in which whosoever becomes member of the Islamic society (i.e. when he becomes a Muslim), he has to ‘sign an agreement’ whose wordings are: “Allah hath purchased of the Believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the Garden (of paradise).” (9:111). That is whoever becomes member of this society, he ‘vends’ his goods and soul to Allah; and in lieu of this Allah grants him paradise. In practice, obviously, this transaction is done with the Islamic State (48:10), and thereby a Momin’s life and possessions go under the custody of the Islamic system. In lieu of this, he gets paradisic life in this world (He does not need to worry about meeting his needs, the state shall take the responsibility to meet all his requirements) and the Paradise in the Hereafter.

Regards,
Optimist
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: Ismail on January 18, 2014, 11:03:15 PM
Salaam.

Of the 9 items enumerated in 4:36, regarding whom every individual must strive to extend his/her help, at the same time prioritizing each item in the order of it's importance, Al Masaakeen (the poor) is the most general, and tends to be the most widespread, and so individuals may not be able to exhaustively find, identify, and reach all of Al Masaakeen, howsoever affluent they may be. Concerted, organized effort, especially by a government is necessary to fulfill the responsibility of fulfilling Al Masaakeen's legitimate needs.

Therefore, that (of Al Masaakeen) is the only item, from the above (4:36)'s group of 9, included in the subsequent group of 8 entirely new items (except Al Masaakeen) enumerated in (9:60) for the sake of organized - may be governmental - effort.

That does not mean that the individual's responsibility as far as Al Masaakeen are concerned, are thus abrogated.

The individuals' responsibilities, like those in (4:36), are abiding, permanent, and belong to the Core Values - the Spiritual Legacy of All Mankind.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: optimist on January 19, 2014, 12:54:12 AM
 
Salaam.
Of the 9 items enumerated in 4:36, regarding whom every individual must strive to extend his/her help, at the same time prioritizing each item in the order of it's importance, Al Masaakeen (the poor) is the most general, and tends to be the most widespread, and so individuals may not be able to exhaustively find, identify, and reach all of Al Masaakeen, howsoever affluent they may be. Concerted, organized effort, especially by a government is necessary to fulfill the responsibility of fulfilling Al Masaakeen's legitimate needs.
Therefore, that (of Al Masaakeen) is the only item, from the above (4:36)'s group of 9, included in the subsequent group of 8 entirely new items (except Al Masaakeen) enumerated in (9:60) for the sake of organized - may be governmental - effort.
Salaam!

My questions and comments are the followings. 

1.  Based on the above, you are now accepting that an organized effort, especially by a government (borrowing your own words) is required to address the group of 8 items mentioned in 9:60.   This is now a huge change from your previous stand.   Millions of thanks.  As you are aware, the group includes the poor and the needy, and those employed to administer the (funds); for those whose hearts have been (recently) reconciled (to Truth); for those in bondage and in debt; in the cause of Allah; and for the wayfarer.  It is very much relaxing to hear from you this comment.   Thanks

2. You mentioned except Al Masaakeen.  You missed one.  The Wayfarer is also specifically mentioned in both lists.  It is ok.  Don't worry!

3. There is also a difference between the two lists.     Verse 4:36 is more focused on doing GOOD (to  parents,  kin-folk, orphans, others in need, neighbours irrespective of whether they are your relatives or not,   wayfarers who stand in need of your help and, those in your charge or those who work under you).    However 9:60 is more specific about categories of people to whom the Sadakaat should be spent.   I am not stating that spending money is not instructed or covered in 4:36.  It definitely includes, but not necessarily.   The instructions contained in 4:36 could be applicable for all whether one has the money to spend or not because it need not necessary support has to be always through monetary help, for instance, if the neighbor is sick visiting him and staying with him will be the thing mostly required by the neighbor than getting any financial  help.

4. I did not state that individual responsibility as required by 4:36 is abrogated by 9:60.  They are still valid in the limited sense when an Islamic society progresses from one level to another level until a full Islamic system is established.   For instance, the individual will be responsible for the needy and the poor in the society only until the administration takes up the responsibility,  and once administration assumes the charge, the individual responsibility will be limited.

Regards
Optimist
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: Ismail on January 19, 2014, 03:49:09 AM
Salaam.

Thanks for pointing out that the item concerning travelers also is common to both 4:36, and 9:60.

Really, the item needs an organized set up in order to be apprised of and to reach timely aid to a traveler stranded in a remote jungle, or a mountain ghat, or involved in an accident.

Your 4th paragraph is the most crucial one.

You said:

"I did not state that individual responsibility as required by 4:36 is abrogated by 9:60.  They are still valid in the limited sense when an Islamic society progresses from one level to another level until a full Islamic system is established."

Did you mean, that a stage will be reached when the responsibilities enumerated in 4:36, will no longer be a crucial test for the individual?

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: optimist on January 19, 2014, 03:16:31 PM
Salaam.

Thanks for pointing out that the item concerning travelers also is common to both 4:36, and 9:60.

Really, the item needs an organized set up in order to be apprised of and to reach timely aid to a traveler stranded in a remote jungle, or a mountain ghat, or involved in an accident.

Wassalam,

Based on your explanation,  firstly please agree with me that whatever categories mentioned in 9:60 need organized governmental effort to resolve, not just Masakeen and travelers issue (you are unfortunately focusing on these two groups only as requiring governmental action, which is not fair).   There are 8 categories mentioned in 9:60;

1. The indigent
2. Those incapacitated to earn
3. Those who are employed in the collection and administration of Sadaq’aat.
4. Helping those who sincerely wish to join the Divine Order but are unable to do so due to financial difficulties,
5. Setting free those in bondage.
6. Those who are unduly burdened financially.
7. Those who strive in the cause of Allah and
8. Stranded travellers.

Now read with complete focus and attention:-

As you said, there are 9 categories mentioned in 4:36 and 8 categories mentioned in 9:60 and two categories are common in both.   If you have a closer look at the 8 categories mentioned in 9:60 you will notice that these 8 categories absorb all the 9 categories mentioned in 4:36 (concerning meeting their financial needs).   Let me explain to you the point in a different way.

Kindly note, when a direction is given to prophet to TAKE Sadakaak and to distribute (administrative responsibility) the same, it cannot be mentioned the categories like, parents, kinfolk, neighbours, etc  because the administration is concerned with general public and all the people in the society (who are ofcourse someone’s parents, kinfolk, neighbours, etc).  Thats is why there is no direction to prophet to take sadakaat and distribute them to parents, kinfolk, neighbours, etc.  This is just commonsense way of understanding things.  All these categories of people who are in need of financial support will come under لِلْفُقَرَاءِ وَالْمَسَاكِينِ mentioned in 9:60.   Since earlier it was individual responsibility and this explains why the focus was on "parents", "relatives","neighbours", etc.   I am not stating all responsibilites of an invidual towards parents, relatives and neighbours were completely shifted to administration by 9:60.  Kindly note, as I stated, the focus of 9:60 is spending sadakaat to meet someone's need.  An individual's duties and responsibilities towards parents, relatives and neighbours is not just confined to spending for their needs.  This is just one small area (it is pertinant to note that the focus in 4:36 is goodness which may or may not include spending for them)

Quote
You said: "I did not state that individual responsibility as required by 4:36 is abrogated by 9:60.  They are still valid in the limited sense when an Islamic society progresses from one level to another level until a full Islamic system is established."
Did you mean, that a stage will be reached when the responsibilities enumerated in 4:36, will no longer be a crucial test for the individual?

I did not mean in this way.  When the administration takes up the responsibility for meeting the needs, the test will be upon the administration (in a way each individual is collectively responsible).    However, as I said, the individual will be responsible for all other duties towards the 9 groups except incurring financial responsibility.   With risk of repetition let me again state, the duties to parents, relatives, neighbours, etc are not just financial responsibilities.  Definitely all individuals will be tested as to how they treat their parents, relatives, neighbours. etc in all other respects.   

Regards,
Optimist
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: Ismail on January 19, 2014, 07:51:30 PM
Salaam.

Of (9:60),

item number 1 Al fuqaraa', see also (2:273).

item number 2 Al Masaakeen, see also (18:79).

The meaning of item number 3 is highly controversial.

The ubiquitous, haunting question is: Why should any government think of financing the expenses towards the welfare of parents, whose children are well-to-do?

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.



Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: optimist on January 19, 2014, 08:51:41 PM
Salaam.

Of (9:60),

item number 1 Al fuqaraa', see also (2:273).

item number 2 Al Masaakeen, see also (18:79).

The meaning of item number 3 is highly controversial.

The ubiquitous, haunting question is: Why should any government think of financing the expenses towards the welfare of parents, whose children are well-to-do?

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
Salaam!

Several questions and comments were ignored by you.  Ahlahmdulillah atleast you admitted governmental actions are required for Masakeen and stranded travellers.  Let me qote you:  "Concerted, organized effort, especially by a government is necessary to fulfill the responsibility of fulfilling Al Masaakeen's legitimate needs".   Unfortunately, you are still not willing to admit that governmetal actions are required for all the categories mentioned in 9:60. :)   

Quote
The ubiquitous, haunting question is: Why should any government think of financing the expenses towards the welfare of parents, whose children are well-to-do?

This is not an ubiquitous, haunting question as such :)

Let me make a comment to this question focusing on the thread.  I had mentioned to you that 9:60 is the second stage where the focus was shifted from individual action to collective action.  At this stage, sadakaat were collected from the people and utilized for different purposes enumerated in 9:60.  Here the focus was not on parents  whose needs were taken care of children who were well to do.  The focus was on every poor person, every needy and everyone incapacitated to earn (whether they are parent of anyone or not, whether their children are well to do or not).   

However, in the final stage, the state shall be responsible to take care of everyone who are poor and incapacitated to earn since all individuals are looked after by the system for their needs and individuals hand over their surplus money to the system or the state and as such nobody dies of hunger and nobody possess extra wealth. 

And they ask you as to what they should spend (in God's cause). Say: ‘Whatever is surplus to your needs’ (2:219) and hense, in the final stage, the prophet was instructed to take the surplus خُذِ الْعَفْوَ in 7:198

Regards,
Optimist
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: Ismail on January 19, 2014, 10:39:03 PM
Salaam.

I meant, concerted, organized action is necessary in case individuals cannot, under probable circumstances, reach out to every Miskeen. Full quote:

"Of the 9 items enumerated in 4:36, regarding whom every individual must strive to extend his/her help, at the same time prioritizing each item in the order of it's importance, Al Masaakeen (the poor) is the most general, and tends to be the most widespread, and so individuals may not be able to exhaustively find, identify, and reach all of Al Masaakeen, howsoever affluent they may be. Concerted, organized effort, especially by a government is necessary to fulfill the responsibility of fulfilling Al Masaakeen's legitimate needs."

You said: Unfortunately, you are still not willing to admit that governmental actions are required for all the categories mentioned in 9:60.

I humbly state, that we need not necessarily form a government in order to fulfill our responsibilities towards the categories in 9:60.

In case there is a government, it should not dictate as to how much wealth anybody should possess, as long as, it gets what is enough to fulfill it's responsibilities.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.


Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: optimist on January 19, 2014, 11:56:11 PM
Quote
I meant, concerted, organized action is necessary in case individuals cannot, under probable circumstances, reach out to every Miskeen.

Salaam,

Your above comment should be classified as very silly.

It is just a fact and even a child with simple common sense should be able to understand that only through a collective effort we can reach out to every miskeen and solve their problems properly .    Therefore, "in case individual cannot" by default does not hold any value and meaning. 

To remind you some basic things any person in the normal circumstances is aware about.....Firstly, we should have a complete data of the poor and the needy in the society and also their needs and requirements.   It may be possible that in one area poor people are concentrated and another area rich and poor evenly distributed and some other area rich people are concentrated.   If invidiuals start to distribute money it may be possible one poor man living in the middleo of so many rich individuals may get huge amount of money and another poor man similarly placed living in a remote area, or in the middle of poor people may not get any money or support from any corner.  These are just practical difficulties if individuals without any collective effort try to solve the problems of Miskeen.  Based on this fact alone, your comment "in case individual cannot" should be dismissed and thrown away.

There is also not even any remote  instruction in the Quran to the effect that only in case individual can not solve the problems, organised action shuold be taken.  The instruction is clear in 9:60 to the prophet to collect Sadakaat and distribute the same (not in case individual can not reach out) among different categories of people and according to the verse, even the remuneration for those who are involved in collection and distribution should be provided from this fund.

Regards,
Optimist
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: Ismail on January 20, 2014, 02:09:46 AM
Salaam.

If individuals are not able to reach out to all the needy, small organizations can be formed in order to do the same.

I am talking about a society consisting of a significant sprinkling of morally and spiritually distilled and refined individuals.

Which society could have been better than that under the Prophet, to carry out welfare works honestly, and with the utmost excellence?

(9:60) only shows that the time was ripe, the circumstances apt, and the people trustworthy enough to carry out the required welfare practices, without embarrassing the givers, and without resorting to corrupt practices.

Even today 9:60 would apply, wherever such an atmosphere obtains.

Howsoever, the individuals' responsibilities, like those in (4:36), are abiding, permanent, and belong to the Core Values - the Spiritual Legacy of All Mankind.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: optimist on January 20, 2014, 11:16:04 AM
(9:60) only shows that the time was ripe, the circumstances apt, and the people trustworthy enough to carry out the required welfare practices, without embarrassing the givers, and without resorting to corrupt practices.

Even today 9:60 would apply, wherever such an atmosphere obtains.

Thanks. This was what I was stating....the instructions were given in stages.  After this stage, Islam further shaped the society in which whoever becomes member of the society completley surrenders his soul and possession to go under the custody of the Islamic system in lieu of paradisic life in this world and paradise in the Hereafter (9:111).

Quote
Howsoever, the individuals' responsibilities, like those in (4:36), are abiding, permanent, and belong to the Core Values - the Spiritual Legacy of All Mankind.

No one should have any objection in this regard.  Doing good to parents, relatives, neighbours and those around us are related to permanent, and belong to the core values.  However, when you move from one stage to another, the stage you have mentioned above, regarding incurring finanacial responsibilities towards them, we will contribute to the system (or even individual organisations entrusted with responsibilites as you said). At this stage, individuals will be concerned about fair distribution of help and support to all the people in the society in an equitable manner.  When we contribute to the system for a collective effort to meet varioius needs, we fulfill our individual responsibility.

Regards,
Optimist
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: Ismail on January 20, 2014, 01:39:11 PM
Salaam.

I never talked about "stages", or, rather, ascending stages in the matter of divine commandments.

But 'circumstances'. Yes.

Unless and until that circumstance obtains, and, unless and until purity of intentions, honesty, and diligence, and great wisdom and caution prevails, and circumstances, inevitably call for a political move, only Dystopia will result, we will lose our focus, and lose ourselves wholly, in hankering after power.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: optimist on January 20, 2014, 02:05:40 PM
Salaam.

I never talked about "stages", or, rather, ascending stages in the matter of divine commandments.

But 'circumstances'. Yes.

Well, you said: "(9:60) only shows that the time was ripe, the circumstances apt, and the people trustworthy enough to carry out the required welfare practices".....This is nothing but different stages when one community move from one stage to another.

And finally, according to me, 9:60 captures the Core Values - the Spiritual Legacy of All Mankind in a comprehensive manner in the sense it not only captures the core values mentioned in 4:36 (in a way both are complimentary), but also move further to include additional responsibilities like helping those who sincerely wish to join the Divine Order but are unable to do so due to financial difficulties, setting free those in bondage. and helping those who are unduly burdened financially (those who are overburdened with debt), etc.

The discussion with you helped me to focus more on certain points.  Thanks

Assalamu alaikum

Regards,
Optimist
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: Ismail on January 21, 2014, 07:56:02 PM
Salaam.

All 7 items in (9:60), other than 2 and 9, are creations of circumstances, and mere extensions of 2 and 9.

By 9:60, only the implementation of the extended 2 and 9, (2 and 9 of 9:60, being, basically, part of the Core Commandments in 4:36) is meant, along with the organized implementation of the basic 2 and 9 themselves. 

The value of the Core Commandments, are basic, and abiding, irrespective of the kind of government.

Only the burden of 4th and 8th of 4:36, which are the same as the 2nd and 9th of 9:60, may get comparatively, and, quantitatively diminished by prosperity, and organized effort.

Of course, prosperity and organized effort aid us in fulfilling our responsibilities.

But organized effort creates more problems than it solves, if the members of the organization are not God-fearing.

However, the core commandments demand the individual's total dedication, to the utmost extent of his/her ability, irrespective of circumstances, and, as I have already remarked, Umar, or no Umar.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
   
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: optimist on January 21, 2014, 09:35:02 PM
Of course, prosperity and organized effort aid us in fulfilling our responsibilities.
Salaam,

This is natural law and just a simple common sense, not even a one single person in a million not likely to disagree.  Thanks

Quote
But organized effort creates more problems than it solves, if the members of the organization are not God-fearing.

This argument does not hold any value in Islam.  In Islam,  Laws and instructions are made and intended only for God fearing people.   Never in the history of humanity, Allah made Laws intended for people who are not God-fearing.   Your concern stands dismissed on this account alone. 

Regards,
Optimist
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: Ismail on January 21, 2014, 11:42:13 PM
Salaam.

The point is, when we are going to organize people to solve a certain problem, or to achieve something, like governing a province, how can we ensure that the members of our organization are God-fearing or not?

No doubt, the tag of being Muslims will already be there, howsoever. What is the litmus test to know that a group of Muslims are not like their usual disorganized lot, with all the outward signs of an organized entity?

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: optimist on January 22, 2014, 01:48:00 AM
Salaam.

The point is, when we are going to organize people to solve a certain problem, or to achieve something, like governing a province, how can we ensure that the members of our organization are God-fearing or not?

The answer is simple...The instruction to organize and collectively solve the problems is directed to only God fearing people....
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: optimist on January 22, 2014, 08:02:08 PM
The point is, when we are going to organize people to solve a certain problem, or to achieve something, like governing a province, how can we ensure that the members of our organization are God-fearing or not?

Just to make a comment differently (actually I feel clarity problem in your question), let me state that in order to solve a certain problem in an organized way, it is not necessary every member in the organisation to be God-fearing.  If we entrust the duty to people who are capable to carry out the task with sufficient authority, it is possible to solve the problem.

For instance, we have good example from prophet Yousuf when the King entrused prophet Yousuf to take care of the enonomy for the upcoming 7 difficult years.   Prophet Yousuf said: 'Appoint me over the treasures of the land, for I am a good keeper, and possessed of knowledge of these matters"(12:55).   This incident is also connected to the topic of the discussion because all lands and its resources were used collectively (without allowing people to monopolise the land and it resources).   

Regards,
Optimist
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: Ismail on January 22, 2014, 11:24:14 PM
Salaam.

You said regarding Nabi Yusuf (taking over the administration of the treasures of the country):

 "This incident is also connected to the topic of the discussion because all lands and its resources were used collectively (without allowing people to monopolize the land and it resources)."

After all, it was a state of grave emergency, when any government worth the name can legitimately suspend the citizen's rights and freedoms if the situation calls for it.

Even so, in the narrative of Sura Yusuf, there is no clear evidence that such suspension occurred, let alone abolition of land ownership rights for ever.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: optimist on January 23, 2014, 02:24:19 AM
Salaam.

You said regarding Nabi Yusuf (taking over the administration of the treasures of the country):

 "This incident is also connected to the topic of the discussion because all lands and its resources were used collectively (without allowing people to monopolize the land and it resources)."

After all, it was a state of grave emergency, when any government worth the name can legitimately suspend the citizen's rights and freedoms if the situation calls for it.

Even so, in the narrative of Sura Yusuf, there is no clear evidence that such suspension occurred, let alone abolition of land ownership rights for ever.

(Before talking about suspension occurred and temporary abolition of land ownership) firstly you may kindly prove that the land and its resources were owned by the people, instead of the state (the kingdom).
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: Ismail on January 23, 2014, 04:57:27 AM
Salaam.

After all, it was a state of grave emergency, when any government worth the name can legitimately suspend the citizen's rights and freedoms if the situation calls for it.

That means, if the situation calls for abolition of land ownership rights, then the government will take recourse to that.

It neither means that land and its resources were owned by their legitimate owners, nor that the government had nationalized it.

I mean that there is no proof that before, during, or after Nabi Yusuf took over, ownership of land or its resources was abolished. Nor even that just to tide over the grave situation, the  government took over all the land and it's resources temporarily.

This is in reply to your contention that all lands and its resources were used collectively (without allowing people to monopolise the land and it resources).

(Bold letters by Optimist, January 22, 01:02:08 PM.)

The moot question, throughout this thread has been, whether private ownership of unspecified amount of wealth or unspecified area of land is allowed in the Qur'an, any revolution or evolution notwithstanding. 

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: optimist on January 23, 2014, 04:35:13 PM
Dear Ismail,  Assalamu alaikum

I kindly request you to focus on your statements since I notice there is no consistency in your statements

After all, it was a state of grave emergency, when any government worth the name can legitimately suspend the citizen's rights and freedoms if the situation calls for it.

Citizen's rights were suspended is just your assumption.  For this you have to prove first all citizen's were holding the land and its resources in their individual capacity and suddenly because of grave emergency the rights were taken away.

Quote
That means, if the situation calls for abolition of land ownership rights, then the government will take recourse to that.

May I deduct from your above statement the following;

It shall be the decision of the government to decide whether land ownership should be given to individuals or to be taken out from them to bring it under overall administrative control of the state, based on different circumstances.   This stand is closer (closer only) to what I have been posting under this thread.  My case is that under any circumstances, an Islamic state will give ownership of lands to individuals.

Quote
It neither means that land and its resources were owned by their legitimate owners, nor that the government had nationalized it.

Not a logical statement.  If the land and the resources were not owned by the individuals (it is implied in your above statement there is no evidence for this), since there was a state (kingdom) in existence (this is a fact), by default, all lands and its resources were owned by the state (kingdom).  This is simple common sense.

Quote
I mean that there is no proof that before, during, or after Nabi Yusuf took over, ownership of land or its resources was abolished. Nor even that just to tide over the grave situation, the  government took over all the land and it's resources temporarily.

Again, before you to talk about abolition, you have to prove first the ownership was with individuals.   To tide over of the grave situation is just your justification and that is the reason why I mentioned the word "temporarily" (because based on your logic, naturally, once the grave situation is over, the state has no reason to keep it under its control.  The land and its resources should be reverted back to individuals).   

However, my contention is that land and its resources were never under individual control at any point of time during prophet Yousuf's time and therefore, there was no issue of suspending or abolishing any individual rights.   Prophet Yousuf was entrusted with the responsibility to tide over the issue, being a trustworthy person, expert, and as a person who was completely aware about all circumstances.

Regards
Optimist
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: Ismail on January 23, 2014, 05:06:34 PM
Salaam.

You said:

"My case is that under any circumstances, an Islamic state will give ownership of lands to individuals."

I said in my last post:

"The moot question, throughout this thread has been, whether private ownership of unspecified amount of wealth or unspecified area of land is allowed in the Qur'an, any revolution or evolution notwithstanding."

Please clarify, so that I may not stray.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.


   
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: optimist on January 24, 2014, 12:28:39 PM
Salaam.

You said:

"My case is that under any circumstances, an Islamic state will give ownership of lands to individuals."

I said in my last post:

"The moot question, throughout this thread has been, whether private ownership of unspecified amount of wealth or unspecified area of land is allowed in the Qur'an, any revolution or evolution notwithstanding."

Please clarify, so that I may not stray.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
Wassalam,

Your above comment make me think about someone who after reading Ramayana from beginning till end, still asked someone to clarify who is Sita to Raman.  You may kindly read just my initial post.   Also, I have explained repeatedly at several places about different stages through which an Islamic society moves forward, though the Quran has stipulated certain laws to cater to the needs of certain circumstances,  in the final stage,  when an Islamic state is fully established, every individual works to full capacity, but keeps only what he needs, whilst leaving the remainder of his earnings open for the benefit of society under the administration of the state and at this stage the administration takes up the responsibility of ensuring that sustenance reaches each and every member of society. My case has been all along that under Islamic state lands and its resources shall be under the collective administration of the state and there is no question of permitting people to hoard or to save wealth under individual capacity (except under collective administration by the state).

Anyhow, you said: "if the situation calls for abolition of land ownership rights, then the government will take recourse to that".   As you aware, in a country like India;

1. Majority of the people live in poverty and find it difficult to meet their needs
2. As under any capitalist system, the wealth is concentrated among few individuals
3. The land and it resources are getting accumulated by rich individuals (due to this reason the price increase is more than 10 to 15 times in the last 5 years alone at many places).  And it has now become impossible for majority of people to buy even 5 cents of land for building a house for themselves and their families.

This is a grave situation the people are going through.  The moot question: Will the state be justified if it abolishes private ownership on lands if it is established that this as an appropriate solution under the above circumstances?

Regards,
Optimist
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: Ismail on January 26, 2014, 06:40:48 PM
Salaam.

The fellow was not focusing on the moral aspects of the great epic. Like the following academic stuff:

"...Then of course there is the Jain Ramayana, which other than following the rough outline of Valmiki’s is an entirely independent work. The Thai Ramayana differs greatly from the Indonesian one, not just in what it says but in its story line, and both are very different from Valmiki’s. And when I say different, I mean really different. In one version Ravana is the hero, not Rama. In some versions Sita is Rama’s sister, not his wife. The Malay Ramayana, Hikayat Seri Rama, and the Lao version, Phra Lak Phra Lam, make Lakshmana the hero and Rama his sidekick." Quote from:

http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Ramayana

The bane of my country is the all pervading corruption, and not at all, ownership of lands, or saving of money in banks.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

 
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: optimist on January 26, 2014, 07:08:01 PM
Salaam.

The fellow was not focusing on the moral aspects of the great epic. Like the following academic stuff:

"...Then of course there is the Jain Ramayana, which other than following the rough outline of Valmiki’s is an entirely independent work. The Thai Ramayana differs greatly from the Indonesian one, not just in what it says but in its story line, and both are very different from Valmiki’s. And when I say different, I mean really different. In one version Ravana is the hero, not Rama. In some versions Sita is Rama’s sister, not his wife. The Malay Ramayana, Hikayat Seri Rama, and the Lao version, Phra Lak Phra Lam, make Lakshmana the hero and Rama his sidekick." Quote from:

http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Ramayana

It is not required to do deep investigation dear Ismail.  What I stated is generally used as a proverb.

Quote
The bane of my country is the all pervading corruption, and not at all, ownership of lands, or saving of money in banks.

Do you know if private ownership on lands is taken away and if people can not save or hoard money in banks, there will be no corruption (because it would be impossible for those involved in corruption to keep the money they illegally earn).   It is private ownership on lands and the permissibility to save and hoard money that facilitate people to do corruption.  If there rights are taken away, there will be no corruption in teh society.  I hope you still believe  "if the situation calls for abolition of land ownership rights, then the government will take recourse to that".

Regards,
Optimist
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: Ismail on January 26, 2014, 10:26:59 PM
Salaam.

A corrupt society produces corrupt administrators only.

A decent society brings up decent administrators.

A decent society needs no curbs on their God given freedom to earn and save. They will never be oblivious of their duties to their society.

The corruption-free government's only duty is to organize the delivery of only that portion of the general welfare, which is beyond the scope of individuals.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: optimist on January 27, 2014, 03:33:58 AM
The corruption-free government's only duty is to organize the delivery of only that portion of the general welfare, which is beyond the scope of individuals.

Salaam,

You are desperately trying to dilute the role of government.  I challenge you to list down to me examples which can be handled in an efficient manner (for the purpose of promoting general welfare) that are within the scope of individuals. Please also list down examples that are beyond the scope of individuals and has to be handled by a government.  I will wait for the two lists. OK 

Let me staste in brief the responsibilities of an Islamic government;

1. Provision of Basic Necessities of Life :-  It is primary duty of the Islamic state that it should provide the basic necessities of life like, food, clothing, shelter and education to every citizen living in the country.

2. Enforcement of Islamic Law :- It is the duty of the state it should enforce the laws of Shariah.

3. Ensuring social and economic justice, It is the duty of the Islamic State that it should provide equal chances of employment and economic development to all the people irrespective of colour and caste.

4. Social Security :-  Islamic state must provide, the security of life and property. There should be peace and property.  The state shall be responsible for maintaining law and order in the country.

5. Social Justice :- It is the duty of the state to make full utilization of economic resources for the economic welfare of the people. Social justice must be provided.

6. Full utilization of resources  & Stability in the Price Level :- The state is responsible to maintain stable prices in the country. In this regard a government can frame a fiscal and monetary policy to control inflation.

7.  Protection of the state from outside and inside enemies.

8.  Harmonious .relations with other countries.

Basic Human Rights an Islamic government shall be responsible for

1. Every human child is equally worthy of respect, thus on account of one's genesis there can be no discrimination; there is no difference between one man and the other: (17:70)

2. In the Islamic Social Order, criterion of determining status of its people shall be their personal deeds and merit: (46:19)

3. No human being can be subservient to another. Nobody can have the right to rule other people (3:78)

4. None shall seize the labour of another person by force, every worker shall get the full recompense of his labour; (39:70)

5. Everyone shall be treated justly: (16:90)

6. Not only justice, if someone lags behind in spite of his best efforts, his deficiency has to be made good by
others to restore the disturbed balance in society. That is called 'Ihsaan'. That is why it is said: (70:24-
25) "Those who are indigents or are incapacitated, have a recognised right in the wealth of society".

7. The right of sustenance: To provide means of sustenance to every individual is the responsibility of the system raised on Divine Injunctions: (6:152).

8. Security and safety of life.

9. Protection of Wealth.

10. Protection of dwellings.

11. Protection of chastity.

12. Protection of aesthetics. It means the right to satisfy one's taste for the beauties of this life remaining within
the limits of the law.

13. Right of the freedom of religion.

14. Right of redress of grievances to the oppressed.

15. The right of a person not to bear the burden of another.

Regards,
Optimist
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: AbbsRay on January 27, 2014, 03:47:36 AM
Salaam Optimist,

Can you clarify more about this, that it is the duty of the State to enforce of Islamic laws of the Sharia.  Are you talking from the Quran perspective on what Allah asks us to do or on what Islamic States should do?
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: optimist on January 27, 2014, 06:50:37 PM
Salaam Optimist,

Can you clarify more about this, that it is the duty of the State to enforce of Islamic laws of the Sharia.  Are you talking from the Quran perspective on what Allah asks us to do or on what Islamic States should do?
Wa'saalam

We all know any law which is not backed by force is no more than pious advice.  Law must be enforced if the social order is to be maintained.  For this, the power vested in the state/ authority should be used to maintain law and order and as a defense against those who threaten its independence.  The Quran says;

"Make ready for your opponents all you can of armed forces and of horses tethered, that thereby you may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others beside whom you know not". (8:60).

The Quran, therefore, is in favor of the state maintaining sufficient power to enforce its laws. The state should not use its power to oppress the weaker nations. It should use its power to create conditions in which the way of life ordained by Allah can be followed.

Surah Hadeed says in this context: that "Allah sent the prophets and sent the Holy Books with them" and then Allah goes on to state that He also sent IRON (the sword) too; It means that a society will be established in which Quranic laws will be implemented: this force has been symbolized by the sword (Iron): the force that is responsible for enforcing adl (justice) in this world and the force which could be used against the destructive forces of evil.   This is what a true Quranic system is: i.e. the code of permanent laws from God (the al-kitaab) and a system in order to establish this code. About IRON it is said: feehi baasun shadeeduw wa manafi-ul lin naas: 57:25 meaning its strength does away with the forces or elements which create chaos and disharmony in the society: and thus its strength is for benefit of man. 

Note: By stating The Quran and The sword together it does not mean that the Quran should be made acceptable on the basis of the sword.

Regards,
Optimist
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: Ismail on January 27, 2014, 09:39:45 PM
Salaam.

"You are desperately trying to dilute the role of government.  I challenge you to list down to me examples which can be handled in an efficient manner (for the purpose of promoting general welfare) that are within the scope of individuals. Please also list down examples that are beyond the scope of individuals and has to be handled by a government.  I will wait for the two lists. OK" 

Individuals not only efficiently handle huge, welfare works, but also efficiently organize colossal welfare projects.

It is they, who, if they feel the necessity for a large scale organization (call it governmental or whatever), take the necessary steps to form it.

In my imagination, it is a scenario, where, the proverbial lamb and the lion drink together from the same water hole.

Everyone would have evolved to that degree. That will require the least government control.

And it will be a World government, not requiring any Defense arrangements in order to kill human beings.

At the most, there will be a battery of state-of -the-art rockets (like the historic Sultan's Battery at Kasargode, South India), standing guard against any perceived Alien attack.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: optimist on January 27, 2014, 11:07:43 PM
Individuals not only efficiently handle huge, welfare works, but also efficiently organize colossal welfare projects.
Salaam!

Actually you do not know what you are talking about. 

I was asking you about cases which only individuals can effectively undertake under their individual capacity without the need for collective effort.  The cases should be such that if collective effort is there it will make the project less effective.  Also my point was not regarding  whether individuals can organise colossal welfare projects through collective effort (this even a child knows), because you said, I quote: "A government's only duty is to organize the delivery of only that portion of the general welfare, which is beyond the scope of individuals".    So my questions:

1. In a society, what are the things that can be classified as individuals can do it under their individual capacity (in a more efficient way) without the need to organize and if collectively done that would make the things less effective.

2. In a society, what are the things that individuals can not do in an efficient manner  under their individual capacity, but requires a system or government to do it in a more efficient way?

Kindly answer.  Also I would like to know if you have any comments for my last post (which is connected to the point).

Regards
Optimist
Title: Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!
Post by: Ismail on January 28, 2014, 03:16:50 AM
Salaam.

"I was asking you about cases which only individuals can effectively undertake under their individual capacity without the need for collective effort."

This is a question regarding specifics.

I have only a general idea, which I have already indicated.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.