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The Quran => General Discussions => Topic started by: Armanaziz on January 29, 2014, 02:12:11 PM

Title: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Armanaziz on January 29, 2014, 02:12:11 PM
Dear Brother Joseph:

Salamun Alaikum.

First of all, let me congratulate and thank you for maintaining this brilliant site and forum where you have encouraged rational thinking and discussion over the Book of Allah. I firmly believe this is the correct approach of studying the Book and I consider myself as a fellow journeyman in the same path as yours.

There are many occasions where your comments have opened a fresh perspective about a particular statement from Qur'an to me and have thus made me ponder. Most often I find your analysis and conclusions enlightening and acceptable. That being said, there are a number of items where your conclusions have surprised me or at least confused me to the extent that I had to take a conclusion different from yours. If you permit me I would like to discuss them with you one by one with the sole intention of learning from each other. I am 100% open to the idea that discussion might clear my confusions just as well they may lead you to reconsider some of your conclusions.

The first article that I would like to examine critically is the one captioned here - about food restrictions.

As per your ground rules, let me first state my points of agreements with you:

1. The seeming 'lack of prohibition' on wild animals IS NOT an evidence that the Qur'an is incomplete and Islamic Secondary sources are indispensable in understanding Qur'an. Qur'an being the complete guidance for the believers must include the full details about any food restrictions for the believers.

2. We must understand the directives keeping in perspective all relevant verses of Qur'an.


However, my understanding differs from your interpretation for the verses: 005:001 and 006:145, and to some extent 006:142. Before closing in to the points of contention, let me briefly summarize your argument as I understand it. Please do correct me if I have followed your arguments incorrectly:

According to your analysis - before the unlawfulness of swine is mentioned in verse 5:3, verse 5:1 unequivocally and explicitly informs the reader of what is lawful. Verse 5:1 already restricts the permission to "Grazing livestock" so the question of eating lions, dogs etc. does not even arise. You have further concluded that 6:142 and 16:8 additionally assigns some livestock (e.g. horses, donkey) for the purpose of carrying weight / show and not for eating.

Now I'd like to point out the arguments which seem week:

A) Let's look at verse 5:1 first - according to the translation that you used, the verse says:

Quote
005:001

"O ye who believe! Fulfil your obligations. Grazing livestock (Arabic: bahimatu l'anaami) is made lawful (Arabic: uhillat) to you (for food) except that which is announced to you (herein), game being unlawful when ye are on the pilgrimage. Lo! God ordains that which pleases Him"

So it is clear that Allah says, "Grazing livestock is made lawful to you (for food) except that which is announced to you (herein)". Can we conclude from here that grazing livestock is the ONLY kind of animal allowed as food? If that was the intension, Allah could have used the word "Innama (only)" before the statement - but He did not do it. So, it seems to me you are reading the word "ONLY" where it is not there. Furthermore, if for argument's sake we accept that grazing livestock is the ONLY kind of animal allowed by Allah, where does it leave the poultry?

If someone says X is allowed for you excluding X' (X' being a subset of X), that does not mean Y is disallowed where Y is a set totally outside X.

B) Now let's see the verse 6:145:

Quote
006.145

“Say: I do not find in what has been revealed to me anything forbidden to an eater to eat of except that it be what has died of itself, or blood poured forth, or flesh of swine - for indeed, that surely is impure - or that which is a transgression, is dedicated to other than God. But whoever is driven to necessity, not desiring nor transgressing the limit, then surely your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.”

As per your explanation this verse is a clear response to the unwarranted claims in the previous verses (6:143-44) where some have forbidden certain animals from within the category of grazing livestock (bahimatul-anaam). You are absolutely right about the context. But note - the tone and emphasis of verse 6:145... Allah SWT is clearly directing the messenger to declare there are NO OTHER restrictions in the entire revealed scripture other than the few selected items categorically mentioned in the verse. To me it seems you are overlooking the tone and generic applicability of the verse and overly restricting it to the narrow context.

If someone says, "they say I restricted P, but in all that I say - the only restriction for you is X, Y, and Z", I believe we can safely assume, like P and Q and R being outside the list of prohibited items are also "not-prohibited".

C) I am also having difficulty accepting your inferences from 6:142 and 16:8. Yes, very clearly these verses imply that Allah created certain animals for food and certain others for other purposes. But does that automatically imply that the ones created for "other purposes" are prohibited as food? Without a clear statement from Allah wouldn't that be reading too much into what Allah said? Using the argument the other way, would you say animals which are good as food (e.g. cows, camels) are not suitable as carriers or for show?

D) You have also argued that lions, dogs etc. have always been prohibited for the people of the book - so  for the Quran to allow the consumption of other animals especially not in the scriptural tradition of previous monotheistic followers, one would arguably expect an unequivocal explicit verse, not implicit, ambiguous deductions. My refutal to this statement are as follows:

i. it is not true that the said food restrictions have always been there for monotheistic followers. Allah clearly informed us (3:93) that All foods happened to be allowed for the children of Israel except which Israel made prohibited upon his soul from before that Torah was sent down. It proves there was no food restrictions before Israel - meaning in period of Abraham, for example. Haven't we been specifically told (2:130) to discard the religions of jews and christians in favor of upholding Millat-i-Abraham? Shouldn't we rather argue - to give any restrictions in addition to what Abraham followed, Allah must unequivocally and explicitly mention in Qur'an - like how He mentioned the flesh of swine?

ii. for me verse 6:145 is unequivocal and explicit enough to conclude that the ONLY restrictions from Allah are those categorically mentioned in this verse. How more explicit would you like Allah to be? You want Allah to list down all the foods that are lawful?

iii. you must have noted verse 6:145 is immediately followed by verse 6:146 where Allah is saying that certain food items (including all creatures with claws) were prohibited for those who were Yahudi as a repayment for their envy. To me this coupled with 6:145 is an absolutely clear indication that the food restrictions followed by the jews mentioned in 6:146 - are now null and void.

Dear brother Joseph - you have been very careful and consistent about the prohibition on music and gold for men etc.  - that we must not innovate any restriction which Allah has not explicitly mentioned. Please think again, on the question of food restrictions have you followed the same logic with equal understanding?


That pretty much sums up my contentions with your article. However, any concerned reader may ask, what is my conclusion then. Am I saying lions and dogs are edible? To me the answer lies in 5:1 indeed, but in a way slightly different from how brother Joseph has interpreted it. My translation for the verse is as follows:


Quote
5:1

O! Those who have believed – fulfill (the obligations) by your contracts. The animals of the Grazing livestock, except what is recited on you, are legitimized for you - without legitimizing the hunting while you are under prohibition. Indeed Allah judges however He intends.

[Please feel free to critic my translation - I am eager to improve my understanding of Arabic.]

To do perfect justice to the verse, we have to ponder first what is the relationship between fulfilling contracts and food restrictions. When we enter a contract with someone there are some explicit clauses as well as some implicit clauses which are not clearly mentioned in the contract. For example - following the laws of the land, maintaining manners etc. are not always mentioned in every contract but they are implicit. Fulfilling the contract implies fulfilling all clauses both implicit and explicit. (For example, I may have a contract with a person for the delivery of a parcel, but that would not mean the delivery man is allowed to break-in to the destination house if the incumbent is not present at the time of delivery - even if such a situation is not explicitly covered in the contract.) It is this fulfillment of both implicit and explicit clause that is emphasized by placing this commandment along with the food restrictions where Allah is saying such and such food items are allowed for you without giving you any permission of hunting which is prohibited (an implicit understanding). We know that virtually everywhere in the developed world hunting / killing of wild animals and pet animals are prohibited and illegal. Allah may not have explicitly prohibited these animals, but that does not give us the right to overrule the prohibitions that our state / society impose on us. Understanding the second part of the verse only in the context of ritual "ihram" during pilgrimage, to me, is too narrow an interpretation.

There are certain countries and societies in the world where unusual dietary practices are lawful and acceptable. For a person in rural Korea eating of dog may be as normal as eating chicken. Someone from that society may be interested to adopt the religion of Allah. I do not see anything in Qur'an that will make me go and stop him from eating what my Master has not explicitly prohibited. But I will welcome him to accept the minimum food norms and etiquettes which have now become global for mankind  - and such norms does not allow eating of dogs. Eating of horse, donkey etc. is also, per my understanding, acceptable as a secondary use for the animal in societies and countries where such practices are legitimate.


Qur'an has been absolutely consistent and persistent regarding the dietary restrictions. The ONLY restrictions imposed by Allah from the perspective of the eater for the believers are:

1. The dead.
2. The blood (poured forth).
3. The FLESH of Swine and
4. What has been dedicated to other than Allah / upon which Allah has not been remembered.

These are prohibited always with a caveat that whoever is driven to necessity, not desiring nor transgressing the limit, then surely our Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.

This has been confirmed and reconfirmed in verses 2:173; 5:3; 6:145 and 16:115.

There are certain additional restrictions from the perspective of food processor in 5:3 - but with 5:4 our Kind and Merciful Master has implicitly exhonerated the eater from any excesses committed by the food processor as long as the food processor is trained in the appropriate method and the name of Allah is remembered over the food.

We can impose as many additional food restrictions upon us as we wish - for health, environment or culture - and by all means we should follow such restrictions - but we MUST NOT attribute any additional restriction (except the 4 above) to Allah - that my friends is my humble conclusion from the relevant verses of Al Qur'an.
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Deliverance on January 29, 2014, 05:26:25 PM
Salam,

Is it meant all the dead,all blood or the dead swine and the blood swine?
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Armanaziz on January 29, 2014, 05:57:05 PM
Salam,

Is it meant all the dead,all blood or the dead swine and the blood swine?

Wa alikum As Salam.

I understand Qur'an prohibits eating of all dead animals (i.e. which is not killed for the purpose of eating), any kind of blood poured forth from any animal and the flesh of swine. These are 3 separate restrictions.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Ismail on January 30, 2014, 12:26:12 AM
Salaam.

Abul A'la Maududi, in his Thafseer Thafheemul Qur'an, mentions what is called "Fiqh Al Qur'an", which, he says, is compiled from reports attributed to Hazrath 'Aisha (R A), wherein, all animals, birds, reptiles and insects are decreed as Halaal, except those mentioned in (6:145).

Of course, it is another matter, that, for us, surely, the crystal clear verse (6:145) unequivocally restricts the prohibitions to just the four items.

However, please explain:

"There are certain additional restrictions from the perspective of food processor in 5:3" (emphasis mine).

And, dear Joseph Islam, I just made haste because I had something to say, as you have seen.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: AbbsRay on January 30, 2014, 01:56:11 AM
Salaam Armanaziz,

I am lost by that long message..
Are you saying people can eat dogs, cats, lions, horses, tigers, bears, rats? Or God does not make it unlawful?

I am just wondering, it is not an insult question...
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Joseph Islam on January 30, 2014, 02:28:37 AM
Wa alaikum assalam Armanaziz,

Thank you for your comments / questions in the form of your critique. May I also extend my gratitude for following the format which God willing, will bring out the best in any future discussions.

I think the core of your contention is given by point A. As I understand that you do not respectfully agree that a restriction is present in this verse, all other contentions B-D (ff) in my humble view, are natural consequences which I would like to discuss later if possible.
 
Hence, please respectfully allow me to address what I humbly perceive are your core contentions in 'A' before we discuss further, God willing. In that regards, please note my responses to your comments in blue italics.

You kindly comment:

"So it is clear that Allah says, "Grazing livestock is made lawful to you (for food) except that which is announced to you (herein)". Can we conclude from here that grazing livestock is the ONLY kind of animal allowed as food? If that was the intension, Allah could have used the word "Innama (only)" before the statement - but He did not do it. So, it seems to me you are reading the word "ONLY" where it is not there."

From my understanding of the Quran, the Quran does not present Shariah compliant commandments in such a manner which would warrant an expectation of the elucidatory comment 'ONLY' as you kindly suggest.

For example, God permits fighting in verse 2:190. The limitations and remit are given. However, fighting outside this remit is understood to be forbidden.

Similarly, God permits the eating of certain types of animals in verse 5:1. The limitations and remit are given in the subsequent verses. Therefore, eating of other animals outside this remit is understood to be forbidden.

With a view to cite another example, God makes intimacy 'uhillat' (permissible) in the night of the fasts. (2:187). The context / remit is 'fasting'.  Therefore, intimacy outside this remit during the context of fasting is understood to be forbidden, (In other words, during the daytime of the fasts, intimacy is forbidden).

Furthermore, from a Quranic perspective, it could better be argued that God could have said only 'swine' is prohibited and everything else is lawful if that was the intention.  After all, such an expectation is not unreasonable as God presents clear verses of the types of marriages that are forbidden first (4:23) and then makes it clear that everything outside this is 'lawful'  - 'wa-uhilla lakum ma waraa dhalikum...' (And are lawful to you what is beyond that...) - (4:24)

Furthermore, if for argument's sake we accept that grazing livestock is the ONLY kind of animal allowed by Allah, where does it leave the poultry?"

I have discussed poultry in section 4 of the main article that deals with food permissibility and prohibitions below [1]

If someone says X is allowed for you excluding X' (X' being a subset of X), that does not mean Y is disallowed where Y is a set totally outside X.

Indeed. But the context 'X' is 'animals for consumption / eating'. I am not suggesting another 'Y'. Other animals for consumption such as lions, dogs and cats are not 'Y'.  If I were for example, talking about animals for riding, that would be a different context and remit and hence, a different 'Y'.

Similarly in the examples I have shared above, the 'X' / context is specific, i.e. 'fighting', 'fasting' and 'marriage' respectively.

I hope that clarifies my perspectives on the contention you have raised.

Please feel free to share your views further on these points and once we agree / agree to disagree, we can God willing, discuss further in due course.

Regards,
Joseph


REFERENCE:

[1] FOOD PERMISSIBILITY AND PROHIBITIONS
http://quransmessage.com/articles/food%20restrictions%20FM3.htm
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Armanaziz on January 30, 2014, 12:39:24 PM
Salamun Alaikum.

Let me quickly respond to brother Ismail and sister Abbsrayray before I go into the discussion with Brother Joseph in my next email.

For brother Ismail:

Per my understanding, the other restrictions from the perspective of food processor (as in 5:3) include restrictions on the animals suffocated and the ones hit and the ones dropped down and the ones gored and what has been eaten by predatory animals – except what "you make aromatic (through legal slaughter)" [dhakkaytum]. These restrictions relating to the method of killing of the animal can be observed only by the group who are processing the meat from the live animal. Most often the people who eat the meat are not directly involved in this process. For them it should be OK if they ensure the people who processed the meat from live animal have been trained properly in the method mandated by Allah - and then eat whatever they manage to bring - in good faith - remembering the name of Allah upon it. Per my understanding that is the spirit of the next verse - 5:4.

The separation of restriction on food processor and food eater is supported in 6:145 where Allah is commanding the messenger to proclaim - “I do not find in what has been inspired to me anything prohibited to an eater who eats – except – that it happens to be dead, or poured-out blood or flesh of swine; then indeed it is pollution or willful disobedience initiating for other than Allah with it.” [Please note I am using my translations with emphasis added- any criticism of the translation is much welcome.]


For sister Abbsrayray:

Sorry for the length of my argument - the summary is at the bottom. If you read from the point where I said, "Qur'an has been absolutely consistent and persistent ... " In sha Allah you will get the summary of what I tried to say.

You have asked, am I saying people can eat dogs, cats, lions, horses, tigers, bears, rats? Or God does not make it unlawful? Let me ask you, does God say that you should not eat raw meat, or soil, or metal, glass or petroleum.. and so on and so forth? Or do you say Allah has made these things unlawful? Then bring Qur'an and prove it if you are sincere. Allah has always encouraged use to eat the delicious (Taiyyibat) - and it is up to us to find the delicious and pure food in the best possible form within our respective socio-cultural context. Allah has given us our brain, our eyes, our smelling ability and our taste-buds - and it is up to us to make the best use of them. The eating of dogs, cats, lions, horses, tigers, bears, rats etc. is also no exception. If we make a wrong choice - the result would be immediate - in the form of indigestion or disease or jail! Furthermore, as I have already discussed in detail, though Allah has not explicitly prohibited wild animals - that does not mean we are allowed to engage in illegal hunting (5:1).

However, we must segregate these common-sense restrictions from religious restrictions. Through-out Qur'an Allah has been consistent in saying prohibitions from Him are limited to the few items - the dead, the blood, flesh of the swine and what has been initiated for other than Allah / Allah not remembered over it. Read for yourself Al Qur'an 2:172-176 and 6:145 and take the words of Allah exactly as they are - you'll invariably see these are the only Quranic food-restrictions. To promote any other food-restriction attributing it to Allah would potentially place us among those who "write with their own hands and then say it is from Allah to exchange it for a small price". May Allah save us from being one among them.


Best regards,
Arman
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Armanaziz on January 30, 2014, 03:09:46 PM
Salamun Alaikum Brother Joseph. Let's now discuss your rebuttal.

In your rebuttal you have assumed my core contention is in Point A. This is actually not the case. My core contention is more around B - you have ignored clear, explicit, unequivocal and unambiguous words from Allah in 6:142 (as well as 2:173 and 16:115 - which you didn't discuss much) in support of an extremely vague and week derivation from 5:1. As if you seem to imply Allah has again and again casually mentioned He ONLY prohibits a, b, c and d - while in fact He also wanted to prohibit X, Y and Z - we are supposed to derive it from some other verses. No! With due respect to your research - the clear words of our Master are enough for me and I do not need to derive anything while I have explicit words from my Master right in front of me. Our Master doesn't say anything casually - His words are precise and final. And the conclusive decision is with Him.

That being said, I am still respectfully refuting remaining of your points with the hope that this will help you and other readers to evaluate the strength of the arguments. I am assigning numbers to your arguments just for the sake of convenience of referencing.

Your argument 1:
From my understanding of the Quran, the Quran does not present Shariah compliant commandments in such a manner which would warrant an expectation of the elucidatory comment 'ONLY' as you kindly suggest.

My Refuttal: Allah has used the word innama (only) numerous times in Qur'an and I believe He understands where He needs to use it and where he needs not. Allah has used this word in 2:173 and 16:115. In both of these verses He mentioned what the ONLY food-restrictions from Him are. Do you say Allah used "ONLY" when he meant "Not really only" and forgot to use the word in 5:1 when that would have been essential to establish what He supposedly wanted to say? I would rather depend on the judgement of our Master.

Your argument 1 - example a:
For example, God permits fighting in verse 2:190. The limitations and remit are given. However, fighting outside this remit is understood to be forbidden.

My Refuttal: It is not really "understood" to be forbidden. Allah clearly says in the same verse "... and do not transgress." Which explicitly implies fighting outside the remit would be transgression.

Your argument 1 - example b:
God makes intimacy 'uhillat' (permissible) in the night of the fasts. (2:187). The context / remit is 'fasting'.  Therefore, intimacy outside this remit during the context of fasting is understood to be forbidden, (In other words, during the daytime of the fasts, intimacy is forbidden).

My Refuttal: It is not really "understood" to be forbidden. Allah clearly says in the same verse to have pleasure with them and eat and drink until a specific time at dawn and then complete the siam up to night. The key word here is "Hatta (until)". These wordings clearly establishes what are the prohibited items during siam - as opposed to leaving it for derivation.

Your argument 2:
Furthermore, from a Quranic perspective, it could better be argued that God could have said only 'swine' is prohibited and everything else is lawful if that was the intention.

My Refuttal: Hasn't He clearly said ONLY what is prohibited in 2:173 and 16:115? Hasn't He made it clear in 6:145 with even more elaborate wordings that there are no other food-restriction for the eater in the entire revealed scripture?

Furthermore, why would He say everything else is lawful - while many foods are unlawful because they have been earned in unlawful manner? For example even fruits and vegetables would be unlawful if they are stolen, right? And why don't you refer back to your own articles about music and gold for men - didn't you conclude they are lawful even though Allah didn't explicitly mention them?

Allah has clearly mentioned what are the ONLY food-restrictions from Him. Everything else is left to the common sense of men.

Your argument 3:
the context 'X' is 'animals for consumption / eating'. I am not suggesting another 'Y'. Other animals for consumption such as lions, dogs and cats are not 'Y'.  If I were for example, talking about animals for riding, that would be a different context and remit and hence, a different 'Y'.

My Refuttal: The X is "animals from Grazing Livestock". Lions and tigers (say Y) do fall outside of the X. Someone saying X is legitimate does not automatically mean Y is prohibited. Your point is - since Allah says Animals from Grazing Livestock is legitimate for you - that means every other kind of animal is automatically prohibited. This my brother is a very weak and arguable derivation. The fact that we have "poultry" as a confirmed exception to your argument clearly shows how weak such an argument is.

Would you really stick to such a weak derivation when clear and explicit verses on the subject are available? From what I read from your numerous articles I do believe you have the intelligence and courage to see your own mistake if there is one.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

PS: I will be offline for next few days, so please expect delay in any further post from me.





Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Joseph Islam on January 30, 2014, 07:48:05 PM
Peace Arman,

you have ignored clear, explicit, unequivocal and unambiguous words from Allah in 6:142 (as well as 2:173 and 16:115 - which you didn't discuss much) in support of an extremely vague and week derivation from 5:1.

What is this dear Arman? Why do you make such accusations against me and my humble efforts? Having gone through my articles do you really think I 'ignore "explicit, unequivocal and unambiguous words"? Why do you make such a judgment / accusation against me? 

the clear words of our Master are enough for me and I do not need to derive anything while I have explicit words from my Master right in front of me.

You can respectfully disagree in your opinion from an academic perspective, but why the judgmental accusations against me? I do not find acceptable the insinuation that I am ignoring explicit words of God and His words are not enough for me.

My conditions for discussion made it absolutely clear that:

"Absolutely no Ad Hominem or personal attacks of any kind will be tolerated. No demand for my ‘authority’, my credentials, my cultural, social or academic background, my race, my upbringing, my knowledge of languages (both classical or modern) or any sort of comment,  opinion or judgement will be made. I have chosen to publish my works with complete anonymity, hence any claims that I make can never be verified and thus it is futile to make such demands. I have shared my arguments with evidence. Therefore, the focus will remain solely on dealing with the arguments presented. If there is a disagreement with my perspectives or reasoning, clear evidence must be cited as to the reasons why, without any personal opinions or judgments against me."

With respect, why would I even contemplate taking time out of my intense schedule to respond to you when it is clear that you have such a judgmental attitude towards my position and approach? Any time I give to you, I could be attempting to assist others, God willing.

Sadly, this is a consistent pattern I have noted with so many that attempt to critique articles and I am becoming increasingly disillusioned with providing responses.

this will help you and other readers to evaluate the strength of the arguments.

I will leave your attempted rebuttal for other readers to make up their own opinion, but I already sense how this discussion will proceed. With respect, I am very disappointed and will not be responding to your queries. It is certainly not that I cannot and the readership are well aware of my willingness to engage, but more importantly because with respect, I feel it a futile exercise and a drain on resources that I sincerely do not have.

Maybe you do feel that I ignore clear verses but I cannot assist you with your views. However, I believe that my Lord knows best my approach, commitment and sincerity to His message. I pray that He forgives me for any transgressions that I make, Insha'Allah.

Regards,
Joseph

Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Deliverance on January 30, 2014, 07:50:55 PM
Salam Arman,

What aboutthe Story of the "People of the Cave" when they were woken up they should buy pure Food in the City although they were in danger to be stoned they send one to the buy something to eat.If they risk their live they could also eat their companion(the dog) but they didnt.And when their were put to sleep again the People found their dog withthem if the environment where Dogeater they would have taken the dog and would have sold him for a high Price but they didnt because they saw it as a sign of These People and these dog(maybe for Humans and Dogs in general).

Similar Story in Sura :2 this time a Man and his beast of burden where put as a sign.

Further we get to know about the camel of salih not to be hurt( a hint not to eat camelmeat?)

My two Cents wa salam
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: QM Moderators Team on January 30, 2014, 08:09:45 PM
Arman,

Brother Joseph has made it clear that he does not wish to engage with you any further on this and we urge you to remain conscious of 2(d) of the forum policy and point 7 of the conditions of debate.

Please feel free to respond to others on the thread openly but remaining conscious of point 7 mentioned above.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Duster on January 30, 2014, 08:19:49 PM
Shalom / peace bro Joseph >>> I just think so many just don't know how to debate without getting personal. I think it is only fair that you also ask - if they are going to debate with you >>> where their own work can be critiqed...for example, do they have articles which can be studied?? their website which can be analysed??? This is the best way for a level playing field. Otherwise you will always have ppl just coming on and attempting to challenge you whenever they feel like it. That is one thing I like about bro's like Wakas that at least provide you with links to their works etc so you can see their views in more detail and don't get personal.  just my few pennies / cents .
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: AbbsRay on January 31, 2014, 02:23:24 AM
 
Salaam Arman,

 What Brother Joseph put in his article/writing is 100% correct. You need to show us as he does what proof you have on what you are saying.

What I find very sad is people still try to find ways to justify their actions wants and desires without understanding the message in the entire Quran. Had Allah spelled everything out for us, He knows the human would never open and study his Holy Scripture the Quran. Allah has said what He has in a way for whatever reason for us to use our brains and ponder and examine His scripture. There are commandments in there that He spells pretty clear, like killing for instance, He knows if He does not, people are going to not use their head and kill for whatever reason... Even if that is in there clear and to the point, people still find ways to justify it because they just did not get it. Prayer and worship, it is spelled out clearly, people still argue and dispute it. When Allah says this book is complete and has everything in it, He means just that. 

Brother Joseph has been blessed to help many people realize the Truth on Islam. He does not come out and just says this is what the Quran says, HE HAS PROVEN IT EACH TIME AND SHOWED US HIS RESOURCES ON WHERE THE PROOF COMES FROM.

I have sent his articles on the Prophet Muhammad was not illiterate to many sites and Muslims who even are finally getting what the Quran says, but still believe that Muhammad was Illiterate. They reply back to me, how they were wrong and how they could not have seen this... and some still hold their stand on thinking Prophet Muhammad was an illiterate man because their Hadith tells them that or they think unlettered means illiterate when the first verse in the Quran is sura 96 and than sura 68, which God is ordering him to Read and write. 
I have visited many of those site on their writings who hold this stands, and My God save us, they have changed it to exactly what Brother Joseph put after they seen the proof themselves.  ;D

Many countries do eat things that make’s a person scratch their head; it does not mean God has allowed it. They simply are lost and confused and sick in the head if you ask me especially when snakes, dogs, lion are being eaten. 

Brother Joseph has been blessed by Allah who has given him the wisdom to understand and navigate in the Quran to find all what is being said to us and share it with us. Looking at Muslims now, they and when I say “They” I mean 95% have completely fell off the wagon on what Islam is and what the Quran says. Whether they use secondary sources or have no clue to what the Quran says as they take verses out of context and hide the truth on the real meaning from others to serve their own agenda or to serve their own ego that they can only tell us what Allah really is saying. Brother Joseph is not prohibiting stuff; he is showing us what Allah is prohibiting according to the Quran. Some may like it and some may not, it is how it is to Allah.
It still amazes me how people who are Muslims, born and grew up with it, have NO clue on what Islam is and what the Quran says and means, but those who either converted or had no religion (I have no idea if Brother Joseph is either, nor do I care nor do I want to know, but in speaking terms in General is what I mean) absolutely get what Islam is and the true meanings of the verses in the Quran. Not only that, they are the ones who are TRUELY are submitters and past the stage of being a Muslim but Mummineen, which means they have connected directly with Allah. Those are the ones who are not following blindly. I again do not care what Brother Joseph was, is.. What I do know is Dear God, Thank You for allowing a man with such wisdom to educate our illiterate and ignorance understanding about a religion we were raised in and followed blindly.
Here is how I broke it down, it is exactly how Brother Joseph said, but I consider insects and different birds to be on the list and anything that eats another creature is considered prohibited because insects are impure and God tells us not to eat anything impure.

THANK GOD I am a Vegan!

All terrestrial predatory animals and beasts, i.e. animals that hunt with their teeth, are considered Haram, such as a lion, cheetah, tiger, leopard, wolf, fox, dog, cat, etc. (This category goes in with Verse 5:3, These animals eat other animals, blood is part of it, although Allah is not prohibiting animals to eat other animals or blood, He is prohibiting us.. by eating these animals we are consuming what He is prohibiting in verse 5:3, including how almost each description He is saying in the verse, except Swine.) see how it wraps all on to WHY we are prohibited…. No one seems to get why He clearly focus on SWINE as haram/ prohibited. People assume it is because pigs are dirty; they eat their own feces and so on. NO, Chickens eat their own feces; other animals do that as well. Allah prohibited Adam and his wife to eat a fruit from a Pacific tree... when Allah does not prohibit fruits at all. It is because He wants to see if we follow his command. I believe it goes the same for pigs... God does not have to say that is the reason to ponder it sure might be. We will never know and only Allah knows why.
Animals mentioned in 16:6, although He is not clearly "prohibiting" He is CLEARLY telling you what HE created them for, there for technically HE is prohibiting with the absence of the word prohibiting. Another Example…
“It is Allah Who made cattle for you, that you may use some for riding and “some” for “min'hā “  and “wamin'hā “  food.” (Surah Al-Gafer, 40:79)

Pretty much anything that eats another creature is prohibited including insects, many birds that catch their prey in their claws and teeth.  Insects and rodents for instance are considered impure, Allah tells us not to eat impure stuff.  I mean how the heck can someone slaughter an insect when Allah clearly states to do it in a manor He tells one how to in the Quran?
Sorry if this is confusing…. As always I am in a rush.
Ps. I really recommend you watch some videos from Gary Miller and Jeffrey Lang. I just sent both of them article from Brother Joseph on stuff they misspoken about.  I even send PM George Galloway some articles with the link to Brother Joseph’s site, and I got a reply with a Thank You very Much from him, how much it is different than what he is being told (everyone knows he converted to Islam, it is no secret, I am trying to save him before the brainwashing of the Hadith is crept in his head any further) lol
Salaam
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Saba on January 31, 2014, 03:05:02 AM
Salaam Abbsrayray. Thank you so much for your post which I agree with.


I'd like to put Armanaziz'a his own argument to him. @armanaziz - you admit that 5-1 makes it halal for 'grazing animals'. Ok then - please find me a verse which makes lions, cats and dogs etc halal. Just like the 5-1 verse. One clear verse please. If you say that this is a silly argument or expectation .....- then why did Allah say grazing animals. Why did He mention them at all? Couldn't he just left it out like other animals if they were all halal? Why mention grazing animals specifically??? He could have simply said only pig is haraam.  Saba  8)

Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: AbbsRay on January 31, 2014, 06:46:15 AM
Salaam Alikium Saba,

You are very welcome.. Thank for liking.... :)
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Truth Seeker on January 31, 2014, 09:56:40 AM
Salaam,

Abbsrayray, you make so many good points in your post ..common sense should prevail but humans have a tendency to stretch the boundaries. Such detailed verses regarding animal consumption should be enough for us. It is clear to me that grazing animals are permitted, i.e herbivores. Chickens come under that remit.

Arman is making a strange point when he says if something is not listed as a prohibition then he can eat it...The list in the Quran would become endless!
Quote
Let me ask you, does God say that you should not eat raw meat, or soil, or metal, glass or petroleum.. and so on and so forth? Or do you say Allah has made these things unlawful? Then bring Qur'an and prove it if you are sincere. Allah has always encouraged use to eat the delicious (Taiyyibat) - and it is up to us to find the delicious and pure food in the best possible form within our respective socio-cultural context. Allah has given us our brain, our eyes, our smelling ability and our taste-buds - and it is up to us to make the best use of them. The eating of dogs, cats, lions, horses, tigers, bears, rats etc. is also no exception. If we make a wrong choice - the result would be immediate - in the form of indigestion or disease or jail!

So I will now go ahead and eat my curtains because God has not prohibited me from doing so? Ludicrous !
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: AbbsRay on January 31, 2014, 11:33:17 AM
 Salaam AlaikumTrue Seeker,

 :) Well curtains are not creatures of Allah's creation, so to say... go ahead... lol
 It is a dangerous thing when people compare other things than the matter of subject to convince themselves that they are right and others are wrong, or it must be okay and not prohibited, especially when the "others" are saying the TRUTH and it is not their "beliefs,"  of the subject in matter, rather it is the words of Allah.


I always say to Muslims and non Muslims that scholars, Imams nor Hadith and Sunna speak for Islam. It is God who speaks for Islam in a book called the Quran!!! It is up to each person to discover it and search for the truth in it. It is all in there. To believe that God left things out, and was not clear shows the person is not really connected to God.

What is next? God did not mention it is Haram/prohibited to have sex with animals because He does not give a Prohibition in the Quran that it is not spelled out?? I without doubt believe that everything is in the Quran, we might not have found everything yet, but it is in there...

May Allah protect all the Animals from any abuse or harm, that He created, big and small!  Sadly, lots of Muslims eat Locust.. I puked in my mouth when I saw this just now and thought of a Muslim web page I came across months ago that gave it's audience the green light to go ahead,  including blood from the spleen and liver of an animal that they kill. Bahhhhhh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlYlNF30bVg

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Nura on January 31, 2014, 01:16:20 PM
Salam everyone,

I would like to begin by saying that, brother Joseph's articles have been very informative and he is doing a great job at spreading his understanding of the Quran. Bother Joseph's approach to the Quran seems logical to many of us that is why we read his articles and ask his opinion but that does not mean he is correct 100% of the time. He is a fallible human as well. He urges us in his website to not accept anything he says without verifying it ourselves, so I believe he also knows that he can make mistakes. If, we begin to have an attitude that if brother Joseph says something  then that must be true then we are being guilty of making him an idol. If his opinion or interpretation does not seem acceptable to someone then it is ok. At the end of the day, it is upto Allah  to guide us to the truth. I believe Allah wanted to guide me to the truth so He used some of brother Joseph's articles as a means to do it, but in no way is brother Joseph responsible for the knowledge that I have or the knowledge that brother Joseph has. We are all being granted knowledge, wisdom and understanding by Allah.

Brother Joseph has decided to remain anonymous and I respect his choice. A person should believe brother Joseph's arguments when they seem logical and acceptable from the Quran, not because of his credentials.

I can understand what Arman here is saying, he was not right when he assumed some of the things about bother Joseph,  and brother Joseph stood up for himself.  Brother Joseph did not make any assumptions about Arman or Arman's approach to the Quran. He simply denied to get involved in further dialogue with him. This is very admirable indeed. We should not make another person feel bad even if he/she does not agree with us.

Arman has given proof from verses of the Quran for his understanding. He agrees that Allah made livestock lawful, but making something lawful does not make other things unlawful automatically.  If Allah says that consuming A is lawful, then we can consume A. This does not mean B, C or Z is unlawful for consumption. I agree with Arman here. Let's take a moment and think, Allah revealed the Quran to 7th century Arabs, people at that time were consuming 'livestock' Allah is saying that consuming 'livestock' is still lawful under the regime of islam. Of course people were asking questions regarding 'livestock' that is why Allah revealed an entire surah, sura 6 in the quran is titled 'livestock'. Arabs used these animals for eating as well as carrying burden.

Saying that Allah has made unlawful the consumption of animals that consume other living animals is not true. if, we take the example of chicken, chicken is not a herbivore, it is an omnivore so is the duck. But consuming duck and chicken is lawful. Chicken and duck, both eat insects. so, saying that Allah prohibits land animals which eat other animals is not true. Also, saying that we will be served poultry in heaven so we can eat poultry now is not a good argument. We will be served wine in heaven as well but we can't consume wine now. Comparing life in heaven with life on earth is illogical. Heaven will clearly have new laws, very different than the ones we are subjected to on earth.

Also, fishes are not herbivores, they eat other fishes. we are allowed to consume fish. So eating animals that eat other animals is not prohibited. I know that fishes are not land animals, I am just saying that we are allowed to eat animals which consume other animals, if we are not expressly forbidden not to.

Allah has used the following verse to summarize what He has forbidden:
 006.145
“Say: I do not find in what has been revealed to me anything forbidden to an eater to eat of except that it be what has died of itself, or blood poured forth, or flesh of swine - for indeed, that surely is impure - or that which is a transgression, is dedicated to other than God. But whoever is driven to necessity, not desiring nor transgressing the limit, then surely your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.”

Notice that Allah mentions 'swine'. He could have mentioned other animals by name or category, if he wanted to forbid them. He does not run out of words nor does He forget

Allah said a category of animals 'herbivores, grazing animals' is allowed for consumption. This does not mean ' carnivores' or 'omnivores' cannot be consumed. This is an assumption.When we deduce something from Allah's verses, it remain just that, a deduction, and we can go wrong. If, something is not clearly said to be forbidden in the Quran, making that thing forbidden by saying that it is implied is not right.When Allah, forbids something, He forbids it using clear verses. Ambiguity is not used in verses when Allah forbids something.
 
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Nura on January 31, 2014, 01:49:25 PM
Salam Abbsrayray..

You do not consume animals because you find it revolting, but when Muslims consume animals they are not doing anything wrong because Allah allowed consumption of animals.

Btw, sex with animals is forbidden. Allah says when condemning homosexuality, that what is wrong with you that you approach people from your own gender with lust. if we can't approach people from our own gender for sex then approaching another species for it is simply preposterous.

Allah has made eating and the process of reproducing enjoyable so that humans engage in it.  we eat because our bodies need to be replenished from time to time. If eating was not enjoyable humans would have starved themselves to death. Similarly, humans engage in the process of reproduction because it is enjoyable, if it was not so, then humans would not have engaged in it.

The problem lies when one sees the process of reproduction just as a form of enjoyment and forget its purpose. Allah made the purpose very clear when he compared approaching wives with tithing a farmland. a farmer sows seed for harvest, similarly, humans are to approach their spouses belonging to opposite genders for reproduction. the purpose always remains reproduction even if one does it just for enjoyment. But forgetting the purpose of something leads to perversion.
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Nura on January 31, 2014, 01:56:01 PM
Salam Saba,

can you give a verse which makes carnivores and omnivores haram explicitly?? when you say eating carnivores and omnivores is haram from the verse that says herbivores are halal, you are deducing. at the end of the day a deduction remains a deduction. Saying Herbivore are allowed, simply means herbivores are allowed, it does not mean other animals are haram.

btw, pig is a grazing animal, there are numerous species of grazing animals in the world, they are not haram. so , Allah said that grazing animals are halal with the exception of swine. 7th century Arabs were already consuming grazing animals, Allah is simply saying they can continue to do so but cannot eat swine.  it is not like Arabs started consuming grazing animals after the Quran was revealed!!!!!
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Nura on January 31, 2014, 02:00:25 PM
Salam Truth Seeker,

you said and i quote
'Arman is making a strange point when he says if something is not listed as a prohibition then he can eat it...The list in the Quran would become endless!'

Why should the list be endless?? Can't it simply be that nothing else is forbidden?? The general approach to the Quran is that if something is not made forbidden, then it is allowed.

006.145
“Say: I do not find in what has been revealed to me anything forbidden to an eater to eat of except that it be what has died of itself, or blood poured forth, or flesh of swine - for indeed, that surely is impure - or that which is a transgression, is dedicated to other than God. But whoever is driven to necessity, not desiring nor transgressing the limit, then surely your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.”

Allah has listed what he has forbidden, the others are not. it is that simple!!
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: AbbsRay on January 31, 2014, 03:49:10 PM
 Salaam Nura,

I put what I believe and think according to the Quran. What you put does not make sense to me on how you are explaining it and justifying it as Arman did.

No one is Idolizing brother Joseph. I certainly am not, nor do I think others are. If we look up to him for teaching us, it does not mean we are idolizing him. BJ, himself admits when he is wrong and if the other person has it right, many times, read the forum.


He CLEARLY is putting down the proof, not as a matter of what he thinks but what ALLAH says in the Quran. I am sorry, but one can not argue when presented with the truth from Gods words. When BJ comments, writes an article and does not find anything from Allah in there that is the seal of the topic, he gives his opinion and says Allah know best, or only Allah knows this is what I think in this matter, and he only puts the proof that he gets from Allah's words.

I am not attacking Arman, He should have showed his proof as BJ, how can one dispute with the truth when it is Allah's words?

Animals that eat other animals? again... forbidding unless Allah tells us otherwise. What do dogs catch for the hunter?
Birds/ducks.. look up the verse in the Quran= allowed if God is allowing it, do we need God to say, I am allowing birds and ducks? Nope..He does this in so many different topics throughout in the Quran... Only God knows why He is allowing certain things He is prohibiting as a whole. cattle... mentioned.. allowed.. horses, mules... mentioned... for riding and adornment=not allowed to eat.. Unless one studies the entire Quran and carefully pays attention to the theme God is giving us, nothing will make sense..As I said, I stand with what I wrote from examining every single thing BJ said, upon myself looking into this matter years ago on my own,  and from knowing this by paying attention to how Allah is talking to us.  Brother Joseph nor I or anyone on this forum are not forbidding people from doing anything, we are saying what God is saying, that is all, how we are understanding Gods words and message. People can do what they want if they feel they hear God saying it differently than we are saying it. That is between God and them. I studied many other verses that pertain to food consummation that were not mentioned by anyone, but I did not list them because I wanted to make sure first. After listening to them all evening, I am more than sure they fall in the category we are speaking about, which again all flows in the subject of consumption.


As sex with animals.. You were missing my point I was making... People ask.. well being a lesbian is not mentioned in the Quran, so I guess it is OK. Again, the theme God is saying, people are not getting otherwise they will  wonder what is being said at automatically think because He did not mention it it is not prohibit it. He does not have to spell it out and many Muslims are sooooo use to the Hadith having anything their brains desires to know (I am not saying Arman ever believed in hadith or used it , I am saying many Muslims in general)  and they let go and they think it is not in the Quran. I have no idea if you are a convert or was a Muslim all your life, you will see all over the Internet and interacting with others, that many Muslims who have been Muslims all their life, have this assumption that is it is not spelled out, it is a free for all.  I am not saying ALL, but majority, which they find the hadioth which goes on many subjects against what the quran is saying.

The animals and sex thing was not directed at Arman, absolutely not, it was a statement I made as general on how many people think God needs to say no or yes, do or don't for it to be allowed or not, believe it or not, people are doing it... even Muslims... There was a blog when a guy asked a scholar what exactly I am saying... well God did not say it is unlawful!


As for eating animals in general, I am not saying don't, I do not for personal reasons nor consume any animal products. I know God allows it. I just happen to be an extreme animal lover since I was a child who sees no benefit from any of it for myself, but mostly I am disgusted with putting anything in my body that was once a living breathing thing or it came out of a living and breaking creature. I am just programmed very differently from many people.


God tells us there are many benefits, indeed, but it is just not from me. Just a extreme health nut as well... I buy my dog meat all the time and cook it for him... yummy he loves it.. I just will not kill it myself..

Hope this clarifies it.. It is not an attack on anyone...I do not do that to people.. I am a teddy bear...  I am just a very direct person on my choice of words...

Salaam
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Nura on January 31, 2014, 04:30:46 PM
salam abbsraray,

I did not mean that people are idolizing Brother Joseph, I am a huge fan of his, you misunderstood me there. I just said that, we should still scrutinize his arguments, since he is also a fallible human.

Regarding lesbianism, it falls under homosexuality. Homosexuality is condemned clearly in Quran. There is no implicit deduction involved when one says, lesbianism is forbidden. Btw, homosexuality is forbidden because it fails to serve the purpose of reproduction. Lesbianism and beastiality also does not serve the purpose of reproduction. That is the reason why these acts are forbidden. Allah says clearly in the Quran that the purpose of sex is reproduction. Allah could not have made it any clearer.

Again, you guys are missing the point, we are utilising the same verses brother Joseph used to say that herbivores are halal and then deduce that carnivores and omnivores are haram. One cannot say that from the verse which says herbivores are halal, carnivores are haram. The verse does not say that. This is a deduction.

All I am asking is to provide with a verse that clearly states that Carnivores and Omnivores are haram. A verse that says herbivores are halal cannot be used to disprove the permissibility of carnivores and omnivores. It can only be used to prove that herbivores are halal.
Also the verse which says herbivores are halal does not say 'only' herbivores are halal. Allah uses the word 'only' a lot of times elewhere.

It does matter if a dog is catching a haram animal for consumption. Just because a dog caught it does not make an animal halal for consumption. The dog has to catch a halal animal.

I said chicken and ducks are omnivores, they eat other animals, Then chicken and ducks should not be consumed if only herbivorous land animals are fit for consumption.saying that, a verse in the Quran says that we are going to be served poultry in heaven does not prove we can eat poultry on earth. We can eat poultry because it was not explicitly forbidden in the Quran. Its that simple.

There is not one verse in the entire Quran where Allah says that carnivores are haram. If you can bring me a verse then we will discuss this again. But otherwise it seems that we have reached an impasse and I will respectfully agree to disagree. :)..

It should not matter whether I am a convert or was a muslim all along, my arguments should be judged based on its merits and its relativity with the Quran, nothing else should matter. :)
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Deliverance on January 31, 2014, 05:53:06 PM
Thank you for you thought Nura you draw my Attention to the fish as being lawful,i remember the Story of Yunus where he was "eaten" by a fish"Sura 37"

"When he fled unto the laden ship, (140) And then drew lots and was of those rejected; (141) And the fish swallowed him while he was blameworthy; (142) And had he not been one of those who glorify (Allah) (143) He would have tarried in its belly till the day when they are raised; (144) Then We cast him on a desert shore while he was sick; (145)"

And the Story of Musa when he and his companion wanted to make eat the fish "Sura 18"

Both mightt be meant symbolically nevertheless i just would say in the  last one we get to know that small fishes are allowed to eat but fishes who accompany Humans are not allowed because(to exaggerate it)their could be a man Inside the fish.
Yunus(pbuh)is called "companion of the fish" and the amazing Thing is that dolphins and whales do really accompany Humans.

wa salam


Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Nura on January 31, 2014, 06:02:33 PM
Salam Deliverance,

The Quran says that the catch of the 'bahr' is lawful for muslims. 'bahr' is an arabic word meaning water- bodies e.g lakes, ponds, rivers, oceans. The Quran does not say anything about companion fishes or anything. According to the Quran, believers can consume any animal that lives in water.

:)
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: AbbsRay on January 31, 2014, 06:19:29 PM
Salam Nura,

I am very sorry, I disagree with you completly. re read what you said and re read what I sais in all my comments.

As for your last comment about bahr.. again u are wrong.. not because I said so, but because Allah does. u are missing every point we are putting down from the quran.

I do not care if you are a convert or not, it does not matter.. my point is, you are not understanding what the quran is saying and saying false things claiming what God is saying when hHe is telling you the oppisite what you want to hear or believe.

Salaam.. I am done with this topic.
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Deliverance on January 31, 2014, 06:20:45 PM
Dear Nura i like your writings but here i disagree with you cause a whale is pragnat for a year till 17months and they get only one Baby not millions like the small fishes.

Can you agree it up with your conscience when you order a whalesteak to eat meat from a whale who probably was pragnat

Sorry Nura but Whales belong to the douptfull/forbiden Meat,in my opinion.

peace
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Nura on January 31, 2014, 06:30:28 PM
Salam Abbsrayray,


I do not think you understood what I was saying, I think everyone here agrees that all kinds of seafood is lawful, please see Brother Jospeh's article. And fishes do eat other fishes it is a fact. I am not making stuff up.

The verse that brother Joseph quotes, does not say 'only' herbivores are allowed. The verse does not mention 'carnivores' or 'omnivores'.

There is no verse in the Quran that says clearly that 'carnivores' and 'omnivores' are haram. please bring a verse that mention 'carnivores' or 'omnivores'. Till then you do not have a solid proof for what you are saying just because I am not agreeing to what you are saying does not mean I am making things up. I can claim the same for you since you cannot provide me with a verse that says or mentions 'carnivores' or 'omnivores' explicitly.

Please do not assume that people are making stuff up to serve their own agenda or beliefs just because their views are not similar to yours. I have given you proofs repeatedly that the verse you are arguing does not mention 'carnivores' or 'omnivores'. You should be able to provide me with a direct verse for what you are saying!
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Nura on January 31, 2014, 06:33:50 PM
Salam Deliverence,

Millions of people eat caviar, fish eggs in the world. Catching a pregnant fish is not haram. But, if you for some reason do not like or want to kill a pregnant fish/whale than it is your personal choice. I respect it. But this has nothing to do with Islam. Quran has not declared it prohibited to catch a pregnant fish/whale.

Personally, we can agree not to kill any animal. since killing for food can be construed as unmerciful at least from the animal's perspective. Vegans, do not kill any animals because of this. They do not even eat eggs, since eggs can hatch to produce newborns! And it is commendable in my opinion. but, it remains my opinion! I cannot say that when people eat meat or eggs, they are sinning, since the Quran allows killing for consumption.

:)
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Truth Seeker on February 01, 2014, 02:18:03 AM
Salaam Nura,

To me, your standpoint seems to be that if certain animals are not explicitly forbidden in the Quran, then we are not to condemn the consumption of those, for example rats, tigers etc.

Using that methodology you then cannot say that bestiality is haram when there is no mention of it in the Quran..

You are taking the homosexuality verse and expanding it by deduction, yet you are condemning those on his thread when they, by deduction are ruling out certain types of animals for human consumption.
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Nura on February 01, 2014, 02:45:44 AM
Salam Truthseeker,

Thank you for saying that others here are deducing when they are saying 'carnivores' and 'omnivores' are haram! No one acknowledged this bit, that it is a deduction. That is the point I was trying to make.

Now, regarding bestiality,

Allah says in the Quran

verse 16:72
And God has given you mates of your own kinds and has given you, through your mates, children and children's children, and has provided for you sustenance out of the good things of life. Will men, then, [continue to] believe in things false and vain, and thus blaspheme against God's blessings?

Clearly in the above verse Allah has said that He has made mates for us from among our own kind, humans. After reading this verse can you think that a human can have mates from another species? When I said bestiality is forbidden, I did not deduce it. Allah has said it explicitly in the Quran that we have mates from among ourselves. I do not deduce anything and I do not believe anything is forbidden in the Quran without explicit verses.

It is not a necessity that we all have to agree about everything! I am sorry if I made anyone feel like I was condemning them, it was never my intention, and I believe its not my place to condemn anyone.I really enjoy having discussions with you people and would love to have more in the future, but regarding this topic, I beleive we have reached an impasse. So, I would respectfully agree to disagree and ask all of you to consider this my last post on the topic we are discussing.
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Truth Seeker on February 01, 2014, 06:10:51 AM
salaam,

I am saying that from what I have seen from your discussions on this topic you are claiming that other peoples deductions are not an acceptable form of evidence to you regarding the impermissibility of consumption of rats tigers etc

This is because you say that they are not mentioned as haram in the Quran therefore we can eat such animals.

I state again then that your methodology must be applied to other topics i.e no deduction allowed. So you cannot then condemn beastiality as you are not bring consistent.
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Saba on February 01, 2014, 06:32:48 AM
Salam Saba,

can you give a verse which makes carnivores and omnivores haram explicitly?? when you say eating carnivores and omnivores is haram from the verse that says herbivores are halal, you are deducing. at the end of the day a deduction remains a deduction. Saying Herbivore are allowed, simply means herbivores are allowed, it does not mean other animals are haram.

btw, pig is a grazing animal, there are numerous species of grazing animals in the world, they are not haram. so , Allah said that grazing animals are halal with the exception of swine. 7th century Arabs were already consuming grazing animals, Allah is simply saying they can continue to do so but cannot eat swine.  it is not like Arabs started consuming grazing animals after the Quran was revealed!!!!!

Salaam. Why would I do that? Can you give me an explicit verse that makes bestiality haram without deduction? No you cannot - you have to deduce. 16:72 gives us permissibly for mates of our own kind. By your argument why are you then deducing that bestiality is haram? Where is the explicit verse to make bestiality haram? Please stay consistent with your arguments.

Anyway, I asked a simple q. Why did Allah mention grazing animals for lawfulness in verse 5-1 if all animals were halal anyway?.

Also if the food of believers were allowed for the people of the book and their food for us, and you say we can eat cats and dogs etc, how can then these animals that you claim we can eat be halal for the people of the book when their scriptures forbid it?

Please provide answers for that if you can. Thanks Saba
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Nura on February 01, 2014, 07:43:39 AM
Salam saba,

I did not deduce that bestiality is forbidden. Allah said that he has made mates from our kind. these 'our kind' words are used, where is deduction here? when Allah said he made mates from our kind he means human mates. You know that too.

verses 16:72

And God has given you mates of your own kinds and has given you, through your mates, children and children's children, and has provided for you sustenance out of the good things of life. Will men, then, [continue to] believe in things false and vain, and thus blaspheme against God's blessings?

verses 30:21

And among His wonders is this: He creates for you mates out of your own kind. so that you might incline towards them, and He engenders love and tenderness between you: in this, behold, there are messages indeed for people who think!

From 'your own kind' is clearly said. Humans are for humans. Allah has said it clearly. How much clearer proof do you need? The verses do not say humans are permissible for humans. It clearly says human mates are made for humans. There is no ambiguity. other animals are not of our kind, they are not our mates. This is not a deduction, when Allah clearly said humans are for humans.

The following verses clearly says that men should approach women, if not they are transgressing.
    007.081

    "Indeed, you approach men lustfully (shahwatan) instead of women. Nay, you are a people transgressing beyond bounds (musrifun)"

    027.055

     "Why do you approach men with lust (shahwatan) instead of women? Nay you are a people ignorant!"

I do not think from the above clear verses, one has to deduce anything! homosexuality and bestiality is clearly a transgression!

btw, in the above verses, the phenomenon of humans having a mate from the same species and approaching people from the same gender are clearly mentioned. there is no assumption or implicit deduction involved.

Allah had made all food lawful for the children of Israel, as proof:

verses 3:93

ALL FOOD was lawful unto the children of Israel, save what Israel had made unlawful unto itself [by its sinning] before the Torah was bestowed from on high. Say: "Come forward, then, with the Torah and recite it, if what you say is true!"

But people of the book transgressed so as punishment Allah made some food unlawful to them. Proof:

verses 6:146

And to those who were Jews We made unlawful every animal having claws, and of oxen and sheep We made unlawful to them the fat of both, except such as was on their backs or the entrails or what was mixed with bones: this was a punishment We gave them on account of their rebellion, and We are surely Truthful.
 
Clearly as punishment Allah made some food unlawful to them, Why should that punishment be onto us??

And also clearly Allah has different shariahs for us and people of the book. proof:

verses
 005.048

“To thee We revealed the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that is between the hands (Arabic: bayna yadayhi - coexistent Torah and Bible *), and guarding it by determining what is true and false (Arabic: wa-muhayminan): so judge between them by what God has revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that has come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law (Arabic: Shir-atan) and an open way (Arabic: waminhajan). If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He has given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute”

btw we can consume food from the people of the book as long as they prepare it following their religious prescriptions. Also if the name of God is not evoked before slaughter we cannot consume it even if people from people of the book prepare it. See related article of Brother Joseph.

People of the book believe circumcision is a mandatory ritual for them. Brother Joseph has proved that circumcision is not mandatory for us.
 So, clearly we have different shariah then people of the book.

The Quran was revealed so that some of the burden from people of the book could be lifted, if they believed it was a revelation from Allah. Proof:

07.157
"Those who follow the messenger (Arabic: Tabiuna RasulAllah), the gentile prophet (Arabic: Nabiya Ummiya), whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the Torah and the Gospel;- for he commands them to what is right and forbids from what is wrong (Arabic: munkar); he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure) (Arabic: Khabaitha); He relieves from them their burdens and from the fetters which were upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper."

So, the Bible may not allow the people of the book to consume some animals but if they believe that the Quran is from Allah, then the Quran can relieve them from their burdens. The Quran is a guard over the Bible. Not the other way around. The Quran can and in some cases does override the Bible.

This is going to be my last post on this thread. I will not be engaging in anymore debate with anyone as I have given my proofs. If, I am wrong may Allah guide me.
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Saba on February 01, 2014, 07:52:36 AM
Salaam . My main question still hasn't been answered. So let me repeat it once again so that someone who can will answer......

Why did Allah mention grazing animals for lawfulness in verse 5-1 if all animals were halal anyway?
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: AbbsRay on February 01, 2014, 07:58:01 AM
Salaam Saba,

I am sorry I started all this naughty animal stuff.. I was making a point...

Maybe this makes more sense....

As for stunning the animal, giving it a blow, shooting it, this itself render’s the animal impure and unlawful. How are you going to slaughter a tiger, lion, shark, and whale? HOW? You become it’s food than (I seem to have this wicked pleasure when I hear of an animal killed a human and has eaten some flesh) You cannot kill it in anyway except described by God….when you are ONLY ALLOWED to SLAUGHTER IT, how can one slaughter a whale? Tiger or bear, Okay let’s say you shoot it, it dies, so it becomes automatically unlawful, it is considered DEAD MEAT before you slaughter it. Forbidden!! I just view this as Allah want't to see if we are paying attention to the manor on how he ordered you guys to slaughter...
If one assumed "lawful" NOT MENTIONED or not prohibitted thing needs to be met with what is commanded as Unlawful by Allah i.e. method I mention above, which one hold more weight? It does not mean because it is not mentioned that it is lawful, God eventually gives other verses leading to all this..

Many people like to quote verse 5:96 about sea food. It says:
"Allowed for you is the GAME OF THE SEA AND ITS FOOD, as a provision for you
and for the travelers." They conclude that based on this verse all sea food
should be allowed.

First of all, you have to look at the context of the verse. It was revealed
as part of the rules explaining the restrictions on a person who is in ihram
(the pilgrim's garment) during the pilgrimage. The whole passages reads as
follows:

"O you who believe!
"Do not kill the game while you are in the pilgrim garb. And whosoever among
you kills it intentionally, then the compensation of it is that the like of
what he killed from the cattle as adjudged by two just men from among you.
[This compensation is] an offering to be brought to the Ka`ba, or the
expiation of it is the feeding of the poor or the equivalent of it in
fasting so that he may taste the heinousness of his deed.
God has pardoned what is gone by; and whoever returns to it, then God will
exact penalty from him, and God is Mighty, Lord of Retribution."

After this prohibition about killing the game, the next verse says:

"ALLOWED for you is the GAME OF THE SEA AND ITS FOOD, as a provision for you
and for the travelers; and FORBIDDEN for you is the GAME OF THE LAND so
long as you are in the pilgrim garb; and fear God unto whom you shall be
gathered."

What this verse is saying is that
        "the game of the sea and its food" is allowed to the pilgrims
        even when they are in the state of ihram;
        whereas the "game of the land" is haram
        as long as they are in the state of ihram.

This verse is not defining what is the permissible "food" from the game of
sea. It is just saying that whatever was allowed (in case of sea food) is
also allowed in ihram, and that whatever was allowed (in case of the game of
land) is not permissible in ihram.

If the verse is saying that all kinds of the "game of sea and its food" is
Permissible, then what would one say about the next sentence---Would all
kind of land animals be allowed after the pilgrim is out of ihram?! No one
takes the expression in the second sentence "the game of the land" as a
blanket approval for all land animals. Similarly, no one should take the
expression in the first sentence "the game of sea and its food" as a blanket
approval for all sea animals.

Moreover, the words "the game of sea and ITS FOOD" show that not every
"game/catch of sea" is food; otherwise, there was no need to add the words
"and its food" in this sentence. It would mean that you are allowed to catch
many things from the sea but only "its food" is permissible for you to eat.

I will no longer comment on this matter...
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Nura on February 01, 2014, 08:00:54 AM
Salam saba,

Because Arabs were consuming them as food and using them for carrying burden from before the Quran was revealed. Do you honestly believe Arabs started eating livestock after the Quran was revealed??? Allah has simply said that Grazing animals in general are all lawful and can still be eaten with the exception of swine under the regime of Islam.  Do you expect God to list every species of grazing animal on earth?? this does not proof other animals belonging to other categories are haram!

In case you did not know, the chicken is an omnivore and we all eat chicken. do not tell me that the chicken is permissible because we will be served poultry in heaven. we are also going to be served wine in heaven, that does not mean we can consume wine on earth.

Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Armanaziz on February 01, 2014, 08:03:33 AM
Salamun Alaikum.

Dear Nura - congratulations for surrenderring to the will and words of the Master of the Universe. For everyone else - I only have to offer you the clears words from Our Master, [recheck the translation though and feel free to use any other translation of your choise]. Emphasis added.

Quote
Surah Al-An-am (Grazing Livestock); Verses 145-147

6:145   Say, “I do not find in what has been inspired to me anything prohibited to an eater who eats – except – that it happens to be dead, or poured-out blood or flesh of swine; then indeed it is pollution or willful disobedience originating for other than Allah with it.” Then whoever is compelled - neither coveting nor recurring; then indeed your Master is Relenting, Kind.

6:146   And upon those who are Yahudi We prohibited every (creature) with claws; and of the cows and the sheep We prohibited upon them their fat/lipid  except what carried their backs or their entrails or whatever is joined with the bones – that is their repayment for their envious acts. And indeed We surely are sincere.

6:147   Then if they deny you then say, “Your Master is vastly full of mercy but His pressure will not turn away from a criminal people.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Till our paths meet again ... Fee Amanillah.

Arman
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Saba on February 01, 2014, 08:10:19 AM
Salaam Nura. That explanation makes your point weaker. I never said they didn't eat grazing livestock before. They did - so why mention animals thy already knew they could eat?

@Armanaziz - let's leave it to Allah to decide who is submitting to Alah's word shall we? Your 'everything else' comment is pathetic in what it implies and I would like to think that Nura would not agree with such a statement too.
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: AbbsRay on February 01, 2014, 08:15:21 AM
Salaam Saba,

Oh my God, I am laughing so hard, (see link below)

I can not contain myself....  ???Just because God does not spell it out, does not mean it is allowed...

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=433.0
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Nura on February 01, 2014, 08:24:03 AM
salam Saba,

Because the Quran was revealed for all, the Arab Christians and Jews knew a lot of things but still the Quran repeated the same core message that was in the Bible. Allah only knows why he chooses certain sequences of words. my point was that, saying herbivores are halal does not make carnivores automatically haram. I can say a lot of things justifying why Allah uses 'grazing animals' here but there is no way of knowing the truth. Allah did not inform us why he chose the phrase 'grazing animals' in the Quran. Anything I say regarding the question you asked will fall under assumption about Allah, and I will not do that to prove a point to you or anyone else! I will refrain to make assumptions about Allah's choice of words as you well know that if I am wrong the repercussions are going to be terrible and only suffered by me :)

We can all agree that the verse does mention 'grazing animals' explicitly but does not mention 'carnivores or 'omnivores explicitly. If someone is saying that 'carnivores' or 'omnivores' are haram from this verse then they are deducing it.

May Allah guide me if I am wrong, but clearly we do have common grounds, let's just appreciate the common grounds we found and leave the rest to Allah. Have a nice day everyone :)
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Nura on February 01, 2014, 08:32:44 AM
Salam Abbsrayray,

Regarding the marrying Grandparents matter, the Quran actually has the answer. It is a known fact that when the Quran uses the words father and mother, it includes grandfather and grandmother as well, proof:

[2:133] Or were you witnesses when death came to Jacob; he said to his children, "What will you worship after I’m gone?" They said, "We worship your god and the god of your fathers; Abraham, Ismail, and Isaac. One god and to Him we are submitters."

we know that Abraham was the grandfather, Isaac was Abraham’s son, and Jacob was Isaac’s son.

Yet the children of Jacob spoke to their father saying “your fathers; Abraham, Ismail and Issac”
But Abraham is not Jacobs father, he is his grandfather, yet Abraham, together with Isaac and Ismail are all referred to as Jacob’s fathers.

Similarly, Ismail is not Jacob’s father, he is his uncle, but again he is, with the others referred to as Jacobs’s fathers.

What this tells us is that the word “fathers” is used in numerous verses in the Quran to mean all the direct male predecessors. This use is also evident in the verses where people say: we followed what our fathers (plural) were doing (e.g. 2:170). Once again the use of the word “fathers” is a reference to fathers and grandfathers.

With this understanding, we can see that the marriage to grandfathers or grandmothers is prohibited in 4:23 since it is classified under the prohibition to marry the “fathers” and "mothers". It follows that it is also prohibited for a man to marry his granddaughter.

I hope the above clarifies this issue and confirms that when God says that the Quran has all the details that it is absolute truth. Many have tried, and many more will always try, to prove that the Quran does not have all the details, but their claims will always be exposed in the light of the Quran. God’s words are perfect, complete and fully detailed.

:)

Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Saba on February 01, 2014, 08:37:03 AM
Salaam Nura. It is by way of deduction that you also accept other animals are also halal. However I have today you haven't provided me a convincing response as to why grazing animals were particularly mentioned when Arabs knew to eat it. By saying you don't know why, others will say it is because that was the group of food that was made lawful like the previous people of the book. But unlike Armanaziz you have not implied we are not submitting to Allah's words etc etc. that I thank you for. Yes we have common ground on other matters....let us focus on that. Thanks Saba 8) :)
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: AbbsRay on February 01, 2014, 09:12:56 AM
 :)
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Saba on February 01, 2014, 10:05:23 AM
Salaam all. Please re-read the verses before 6-145 that ArmanAziz keeps quoting out of context.....you will see that 6-145 has to be read in context where it is made clear that Arabs had made unlawful certain things in grazing animals. That is what 6-145 clarified. Verses should not be read out of context.

006.144
And two of camels and two of cows. Say: Has He forbidden the two males or the two females or that which the wombs of the two females contain? Or were you witnesses when Allah enjoined you this? Who, then, is more unjust than he who forges a lie against Allah that he should lead astray men without knowledge? Surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

006.145
YUSUFALI: Say: "I find not in the message received by me by inspiration any (meat) forbidden to be eaten by one who wishes to eat it, unless it be dead meat, or blood poured forth, or the flesh of swine,- for it is an abomination - or, what is impious, (meat) on which a name has been invoked, other than Allah's". But (even so), if a person is forced by necessity, without wilful disobedience, nor transgressing due limits,- thy Lord is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

The biggest problem is reading verses out of context!!!!
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: AbbsRay on February 01, 2014, 10:52:17 AM
 Salam Nura,

I know about the Grandmother marriage stuff. I was actually laughing about it.


Salaam Saba,

For sure Brother J has it down. But the stuff in the sea those animals still fall under (carnivorous and omnivorous)

 I without a doubt know that animals that eat other animals (carnivorous and omnivorous) are not allowed to eat based on what God tells us in the verse he is prohibiting Swine, blood, flesh etc. God mentions the animal and gives us an example is what the theme in the Quran has been.

This is the reason one needs to study their Quran and reason with what God is saying...
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Saba on February 01, 2014, 12:54:08 PM
Salaam all. related to verse 6-145, please see thread below which is very convincing in my view...


http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=455.  -Confusion while interrelations 5:3 and 6:145 (forbidden items of food). Again as I mentioned before 6-145 is being read out of context!

@Abbsrayray - I think the Qur'an deals with fish and creatures of the sea as a completely different category. Small fish are eaten by bigger fish and they are eaten by even bigger fish and so on. They are all fish and catch of the sea and thus halal. Saba  8)
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Saba on February 01, 2014, 12:56:20 PM
This is from the link above:


Dear Adil,

Salamun Alaikum

Quranic themes need to be studied collectively in context and not as isolated verses. Many verses in one part of the Quran explain and elucidate other parts. This is no exception.

Verse 5:1-3 clearly lays down the prohibitions in detail of what is and is not lawful. 6:145 is only confirming in summary form what is in verses 5:1-3 and challenging the superstitions in the preceding verses (6:143-44) and clarifying the matter.  It is clear that the Quraish had superstitious beliefs of what could be eaten of the grazing animals (bahimatul-anaam) and what could not (6:143-44). 

006:143-44
"Eight in pairs-- two of sheep and two of goats. Say: Has He forbidden the two males or the two females or that which the wombs of the two females contain? Inform me with knowledge if you are truthful. And two of camels and two of cows. Say: Has He forbidden the two males or the two females or that which the wombs of the two females contain? Or were you witnesses when Allah enjoined you this? Who, then, is more unjust than he who forges a lie against Allah that he should lead astray men without knowledge? Surely Allah does not guide the unjust people"


Therefore, verse 6:145 clarifies and challenges these superstitions (hence the exception - 'Say: I do not find in that which has been revealed to me...except') and does away with any prohibitions relating to 'bahimatul-anaam' (grazing animals), and makes them all lawful whilst confirming basic prohibitions as laid out in verses 5:1-3.

There is absolutely no confusion here in my mind if all the verses are studied together and in context.  6:145 should be read carefully with its previous 2 verses to understand the dialogue better.

I hope that helps, God willing.
Joseph.
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Deliverance on February 01, 2014, 06:45:37 PM
Good Mornig all,

Well most fishes are "grazing" the oceans Plankton,like the herring but somtimes he eat the "insects of water" shrimps and fisheggs so he is like the chicken on land.

But there also predator in the ocean most of them had teeth to kill like the shark,orca,dolphins but the whales which are grazing do not have  teeth they eat mostly plankton or small fishes.

Their is no Prohibition to eat whales but beacause of their long pragnancy they should be forbidden because we should live in peace,harmonie,balance=Islam   
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Deliverance on February 01, 2014, 06:52:45 PM
Abraham served his guest with the best meal he had and that was meat.

And Our messengers cam unto Abraham with good news. They said: Peace! He answered: Peace! and delayed not to bring a roasted calf. (69) And when he saw their hands reached not to it, he mistrusted them and conceived a fear of them. They said: Fear not! Lo! we are sent unto the folk of Lot.
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: optimist on February 01, 2014, 07:32:30 PM
Salamun Alaikum.

Dear Nura - congratulations for surrenderring to the will and words of the Master of the Universe. For everyone else - I only have to offer you the clears words from Our Master, [recheck the translation though and feel free to use any other translation of your choise]. Emphasis added.

Quote
Surah Al-An-am (Grazing Livestock); Verses 145-147

6:145   Say, “I do not find in what has been inspired to me anything prohibited to an eater who eats – except – that it happens to be dead, or poured-out blood or flesh of swine; then indeed it is pollution or willful disobedience originating for other than Allah with it.” Then whoever is compelled - neither coveting nor recurring; then indeed your Master is Relenting, Kind.

6:146   And upon those who are Yahudi We prohibited every (creature) with claws; and of the cows and the sheep We prohibited upon them their fat/lipid  except what carried their backs or their entrails or whatever is joined with the bones – that is their repayment for their envious acts. And indeed We surely are sincere.

6:147   Then if they deny you then say, “Your Master is vastly full of mercy but His pressure will not turn away from a criminal people.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Till our paths meet again ... Fee Amanillah.

Arman

Allah has used the following verse to summarize what He has forbidden:
 006.145
“Say: I do not find in what has been revealed to me anything forbidden to an eater to eat of except that it be what has died of itself, or blood poured forth, or flesh of swine - for indeed, that surely is impure - or that which is a transgression, is dedicated to other than God. But whoever is driven to necessity, not desiring nor transgressing the limit, then surely your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.”

Salaam!

Firstly let me state that, I completely agree with Brother Joseph Islam for his comments; ...that verse 6:145 is a clear response to the unwarranted claims in the previous verses (6:143-44) where some have forbidden certain animals from within the category of grazing livestock (bahimatul-anaam)";  .............."It is with a view to counter these unwarranted, self imposed restrictions within the category of ‘grazing livestock’ that verse 6:145 responds"........

http://quransmessage.com/articles/food%20restrictions%20FM3.htm

One simple question to both of you based on your above comments for 6:145.   Kindly inform us what is your explanation for the following verses?  Is it allowed in the light of the following verses to eat the meat of horses, mules, and donkeys?
 
006.142
"Of the cattle (Arabic: Anaam) are some for burden and some for meat: eat what God has provided for you, and follow not the footsteps of Satan: for he is to you an avowed enemy"
 
016.008
"And (He has created) horses, mules, and donkeys, for you to ride (Arabic: Litarkabuha) and use for show (Arabic: Wazinatan); and He has created (other) things of which ye have no knowledge"

Regards,
Optimist
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Deliverance on February 01, 2014, 11:17:24 PM
The word Khin literally means rotten, stink or bad - Ziri means that you see. In 5:60 God uses the word kh-na-zi-ro to signify stinking as the state of condition of a person - but authorities say humans can become pigs
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Deliverance on February 01, 2014, 11:50:42 PM

Salam Nura,
You wrote all from the sea is lawful and refered to the vers "the game of the sea and its food"What this verse is saying is that........"the game of the sea and its food" is allowed to the pilgrims  even when they are in the state of ihram; whereas the"game of the land" is haram  as long as they are in the state of ihram.

This verse is not defining what is the permissible"food" from the game of sea. It is just saying that whatever was allowed (in case of sea food) is also allowed in ihram, and that whatever was allowed (in case of the game of land) is not permissible in ihram.
If the verse is saying that all kinds of the "game of sea and its food" is permissible, then what would one say about the next sentence---Would all kind of land animals be allowed after the pilgrim is out of ihram? No one takes the expression in the second sentence "the game of the land" as a blanket approval for all land animals. Similarly, no one should take the expression in the first sentence "the game of sea and its food" as a blanket approval for all sea animals.

Moreover, the words "the game of sea and ITS FOOD" show that not every "game/catch of sea" is food; otherwise, there was no need to add the words "and its food" in this sentence. It would mean that you are allowed to catch  many things from the sea but only "its food" is permissible for you to eat. Nor does it say "ALL THE GAME OF THE SEA...." Thus an exclusion of certain sea animals are implied.
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: AbbsRay on February 02, 2014, 01:42:24 AM
Salaam Deliverance,

I laugh when people get attacked by sharks... Now humans know how it feels going after these beautiful creatures...  It is a Beast... It has it's own community just like us...
There is a verse in the Quran about how we humans are.. Greedy, unthankful.. Those are my words not Gods...
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Deliverance on February 02, 2014, 03:06:10 AM
Salam Abbsrayray,

Well i do not go that far but some people do not know that the ocean isn´t for fun it is like the djungle if you have not the right equipment you can be killed by an animal.
The shark isn´t bad as portrayed in films he is just doing his duty and sometimes a surfer is looking like a seadog and then he attack them but he first take a bite and taste it ,but sharks dont like humanmeat.   
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Ismail on February 02, 2014, 05:30:58 AM
Salaam.

Of course, (6:45) comes after a particular context.

But it does not mean that it is limited to that context. In fact, 6:145 only repeats what is explicitly told in the other well known verses of the same category.

They are, including 6:145: (2:173, 5:3, 6:145, 16:115).

It is also well known that all these verses limit the prohibitions as regards food, as against the run-away restrictions imposed by the clergy, etc. (16:116).

There is no restriction as far as anybody abstains from eating certain categories on any reasonable basis other than the falsehood that it is a religious restriction.

In my humble opinion, the stress is on the deadly sin of inventing religion.

As for food restrictions, the limit of limitation is awesome in its simplicity.

Over and above this, is the permission to consume it, on certain conditions.

Yet, we will notice all over the world, our people very frequently remain engaged in vehement arguments regarding this and that being halaal or haraam.

That is why, in 6:151, everybody's attention is drawn towards whatever is actually, most awfully HARAAM.

That is where (borrowing a term from ancient Semetic tradition), the Ten Commandments - the Spiritual Legacy of All Mankind, is proclaimed. See (6:151-152-153).

Now, a word regarding a remark by Deliverance. Regarding whales gestating for 17 months, and giving birth to a single baby, etc.

Perhaps, such concerns come under the category of endangered species, etc. And such concerns must be reasonably addressed. Even a ban on whale hunting may be called for.

Now, a word about "eating everything" except the prohibited 4 items.

The whole exercise of divine prohibitions begins with the words:

O ye people! Eat of what is on earth, lawful and good....(2:168)

The subject goes on until at least (2:176).

The verses need be studied with the utmost diligence.

Regarding these, Abdulla Yusuf Ali says:

We now come to the regulations about food. First (2:168-171) we have an appeal to all people. Muslims, Pagans, as well as the People of the Book; then (2:172-173) to the Muslims specially; then (2:174-176) to the sort of men who then (as some do now) either believe in too much formalism or believe in no restrictions at all. Islam follows the Golden Mean. All well regulated societies lay down reasonable limitations. These become incumbent on all loyal members of any given society, and show what is "lawful" in that society. But, if the limitations are reasonable, as they should be, the "lawful" will also coincide more and more with what is "good".

          Good: Thayyib = Pure, clean, wholesome, nourishing, pleasing to the taste.

The general principle then would be: what is lawful and what is good, should be followed, not what is evil, or shameful, or foisted on by false ascription to divine injunctions, or what rests merely on the usage of ancestors, even though the ancestors were ignorant or foolish. An example of a shameful custom would be that among the Pagan Arabs of taking congealed blood and eating it fried
. (End of quote).

Like we do not have any restrictions regarding plant food, as above.

But, nobody, except may be a mad man, just walks into the jungle and eats whatever vegetation he comes across.

Mankind has developed agriculture since time immemorial

Man cultivates certain well known edible things only. But the range of such things goes own increasing with increase in knowledge.

There are poisonous plants too in nature.

All these things are left to man's quest, and his increasing experience. The same thing goes on even regards to edible animals in nature.

Man domesticates certain animals, then he invents animal farming. Then the range of the kinds of animals used in farming, and the farming methods go on increasing and developing.

For example, we have ostrich farms in India now, which, earlier we had never heard of.

But the basic, divine prohibitions always remain in place.

Wallahu A'lam.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Saba on February 02, 2014, 05:39:22 AM
Salaam.

Of course, (6:45) comes after a particular context.

But it does not mean that it is limited to that context. In fact, 6:145 only repeats what is explicitly told in the other well known verses of the same category.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

Salaam br Ismail. I am actually so surprised that this is your position. Sorry but I couldn't disagree with you most. You, nura and aminaziz simply cannot get away from the fact that verse 6:145 has to be understood as a response to its context. This is not a verse to be read out of context to make all animals lawful. Sorry but it isn't!.  It was a clarification made in within the category of animals that was made haram by the Arabs. You just cannot get away from that. Please read previous verses again.

You talk about verses 2:173, 5:3, and 6:145..... Again, this is out of context..... If read in context:

2:173    - Read in context of previous verse 2-172 - eat of the good things and that includes the category described in verse 5-1 of land animals (with exception of pig) and other good foods such as fruits, fish etc
5:3        - Again read in context previous verse of 5-1 - what is made permissible in grazing livestock!
16:115  -  Again - Read in context of previous verse 16:114 - What is provided as lawful (halal) and good - What is halal of animals is given in verse 5-1 - grazing livestock + other good food such as fish, fruits etc.

Please give me a clear response for my question below if you can:

Why did Allah mention grazing animals for lawfulness in verse 5-1 if all animals were halal anyway?

Thanks Saba

Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Ismail on February 02, 2014, 12:29:06 PM
Salaam.

Saba says: "Why did Allah mention grazing animals for lawfulness in verse 5-1 if all animals were halal anyway?"

Because they are lawful, and, because, they are the ones generally consumed all over the world, or at least in the then Arabia.

That they are all lawful, except hunted down in the state of ihraam, and also, that they are all lawful, barring the already mentioned prohibitions.

For us, they are included in (2:168-176).

The mention of a particular (yet universally acknowledged category of animals in 5:1 cannot be construed as being the only explanation for (2:168), and (2:172).

If it were the only thing halaal among animals, it would have found a place much earlier, within or about (2:168-176), and, in an unequivocal way of saying.

Also, brother Deliverance, the word 'game' in the phrase 'game of water', in (5:96), is basically an infinitive, which means 'hunting', and can be used to mean the hunted, or game, as you said.

That is why in translations we find "the pursuit of water game", in this context.

But, if we mean the hunted, then also, the next phrase 'it's food' will mean the edible portion of the game, and this, in the sense of fish, will be the edible portion left after discarding the fins, intestines, etc. and this is usually dried and preserved, for use in travel, etc. as the verse indicates.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Ismail on February 02, 2014, 12:56:34 PM
Salaam.

Also, the extreme way of speech in {6:145}, is an eloquent testimony to the fact, that it's context is not confined to the immediately preceding Verses.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
Title: Bahhhhhh
Post by: AbbsRay on February 02, 2014, 01:04:42 PM
Salaam Ismail....

Do you want me to send you the verse with audio of the QURAN reciting it? 

I am very very HAPPY to tell you BJ got it RIGHT in his comments on this forum and his writings. I declare that the truth has reached you.. It is between Allah and you now.. Now you know..... You are doing the same thing as you did for the 4 wives. This is not heaven on earth you know... It is not about who is right or wrong.. It is about F A C T S IN ALLAH'S O W N  W O R D S!
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: optimist on February 02, 2014, 01:06:29 PM
Salaam.

Saba says: "Why did Allah mention grazing animals for lawfulness in verse 5-1 if all animals were halal anyway?"

Because they are lawful, and, because, they are the ones generally consumed all over the world, or at least in the then Arabia.

Salaam,

Use logic brother Ismail before posting..!!.   You are saying they are specifically mentioned because they are lawful.   Why other categories of animals are not mentioned since they are also lawful (according to you), say dogs, cats, rats, etc.   Actually, if the logic of mentioning is "they are lawful and they are the one generally consumed all over the world", more than the need to mention about permissibility of grazing animals, (since they are already considered as lawful by people and even a silence on this point could be taken to mean as permissibility), the Quran should have specified about permissibility of eating dogs, cats, rats,  etc (feel like vomiting!) since they are generally considered as unlawful and not good.

Regards,
Optimist
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Saba on February 02, 2014, 01:17:01 PM
Use logic brother Ismail before postingl.   You are saying they are specifically mentioned because they are lawful.   Why other categories of animals are not mentioned since they are also lawful (according to you), say dogs, cats, rats, etc.   Actually, if the logic of mentioning is "they are lawful and they are the one generally consumed all over the world", more than the need to mention about permissibility of grazing animals (since they are already considered as lawful by people), it should have mentioned about permissibility of eating dogs, cats, rats,  etc (feel like vomiting!) since they are generally considered as unlawful and not good.

Salaam optimist....thank u for this. I was about to give up!!! I am so glad that on this occasion I am not going crazy!!!!. My point precisely which no one was answering....Why mention something which is already staple diet!!!??? One would think it would be more appropriate to mention other animals which were not common to eat or not mention anything at all.. Why single out grazing stock which everyone knew to eat anyway... Thx!!!  8) :)
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: AbbsRay on February 02, 2014, 01:20:47 PM
Allah esayid marato Ismail..  :o
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: optimist on February 02, 2014, 03:38:23 PM
Allah has used the following verse to summarize what He has forbidden:
 006.145
“Say: I do not find in what has been revealed to me anything forbidden to an eater to eat of except that it be what has died of itself, or blood poured forth, or flesh of swine - for indeed, that surely is impure - or that which is a transgression, is dedicated to other than God. But whoever is driven to necessity, not desiring nor transgressing the limit, then surely your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.”

Notice that Allah mentions 'swine'. He could have mentioned other animals by name or category, if he wanted to forbid them. He does not run out of words nor does He forget  

Salaam!

There is one point I missed to mention in post number 50 about your comment (I have highlighted in blue above).  Your comment here is not convincing at all.    Just like the dead animals forbidden in 5:3 is linked to the category of permissible grazing livestock mentioned in 5:1,  the dead animals prohibited in verse 6:145 is linked to 6:143-44 from the discussion of grazing livestock, including certain categories of grazing livestock people themselves have prohibited without any mandate from Allah.   What Quran is highlighting in 6:145 is that people cannot whimsically prohibit permissible grazing livestock except the dead, blood poured forth, etc. 

Please note, the Quran is completely  consistant at both places (5:1-3 & 6:143-145) which is the reason why Swine is mentioned at both places as prohibited.  If we consider your logic and conclude from this verse that all animals are allowed, except dead, flowing blood poured forth, flesh of swine and dedicated to other than God, it would make many Quran verses like 6.142  and 16:8 inconsistent where Quran clearly says horses, mules and donkeys for us to ride and for use for show and not for meat.   

By the way, the Quran says that we should eat only that meat on which Allah’s name has been pronounced at the time of the animal’s slaughter (6:119).  Are you going to make people slaughter cats, mouse, rats, etc mentioning Allah's name and eat, like we slaughter and eat other animals?

Regards,
Optimist
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: optimist on February 02, 2014, 03:46:54 PM
Salaam.

Also, the extreme way of speech in {6:145}, is an eloquent testimony to the fact, that it's context is not confined to the immediately preceding Verses.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

Salam!

Thanks for admitting 6:145 has a connection with preceding verses.  Tell us what is your evidence that its context is not confined to the immediately preceding verses?  Remember the proverb, one foot cannot stand on two boats.  You cannot row two boats at the same time.

Regards,
Optimist
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: optimist on February 02, 2014, 04:06:32 PM
Use logic brother Ismail before postingl.   You are saying they are specifically mentioned because they are lawful.   Why other categories of animals are not mentioned since they are also lawful (according to you), say dogs, cats, rats, etc.   Actually, if the logic of mentioning is "they are lawful and they are the one generally consumed all over the world", more than the need to mention about permissibility of grazing animals (since they are already considered as lawful by people), it should have mentioned about permissibility of eating dogs, cats, rats,  etc (feel like vomiting!) since they are generally considered as unlawful and not good.

Salaam optimist....thank u for this. I was about to give up!!! I am so glad that on this occasion I am not going crazy!!!!. My point precisely which no one was answering....Why mention something which is already staple diet!!!??? One would think it would be more appropriate to mention other animals which were not common to eat or not mention anything at all.. Why single out grazing stock which everyone knew to eat anyway... Thx!!!  8) :)

Thank you for your comment....I was just stating a common sense :)
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Nura on February 02, 2014, 10:57:06 PM
Salam everyone,:)

Catch of the Sea:
Verses 05:96
 "Lawful (Arabic: uhilla) to you is the pursuit of game  (Arabic: saydu) of the sea (Arabic: bahri) and its use for food (Arabic: ta'amuhu), for the benefit of yourselves and those who travel; but forbidden is the pursuit of game of the land as long as you are in the sacred precincts or in pilgrim garb. And fear God, to Whom you shall be gathered back"

The context of the verse is food allowed while in the state of Ihram. But that does not mean it is unlawful to consume catch of the sea during other times. Here, it is clearly said that the pursuit of game of the sea, by that, it means animals that live in the sea. by and its  food, well it means the food of the game of the sea, which includes, seaweeds, other small fishes, crustaceans  all are lawful.

If, something is not explicitly declared haram, it is halal! here we see clearly that animals that live in water are lawful.

 006:143

"(Take) eight (head of cattle) in (four) pairs: of sheep a pair, and of goats a pair; say, has He forbidden the two males, or the two females, or (the young) which the wombs of the two females enclose? Tell me with knowledge if ye are truthful:

006.144

"Of camels a pair, and oxen a pair; say, has He forbidden the two males, or the two females, or (the young) which the wombs of the two females enclose? - Were ye present when God ordered you such a thing? But who does more wrong than one who invents a lie against God, to lead astray men without knowledge? For God guides not people who do wrong.

006.145
“Say: I do not find in what has been revealed to me anything forbidden to an eater to eat of except that it be what has died of itself, or blood poured forth, or flesh of swine - for indeed, that surely is impure - or that which is a transgression, is dedicated to other than God. But whoever is driven to necessity, not desiring nor transgressing the limit, then surely your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.”

yes the above verses are saying that in a context, again it is not confined to the context! yes, certain 'grazing animals' were declared unlawful by the Arabs, and we can see how Allah used ' I do not find in what has been revealed to me anything forbidden ' here why did Allah not mention 'grazing animal'  and say no animal within the category of 'grazing animal' is haram with the exception of swine? After all this verse was revealed to rebuke the practice of dedicating animals to God and forbidding people from consuming them!Allah is not ambiguous people! He did not mention the category 'grazing livestock' in this verse because other animals belonging to other categories are not haram. When Allah makes something Haram He mentions them clearly He does not live it upto us to deduce!

I agree with brother Ismail when he says that 'grazing animals' is specifically mentioned because Arabs were consuming them during the 7th Century. And so Allah says they can continue to consume 'grazing animals' with the exception of swine. If we can lay down a cow, chicken or goat for slaughter, why  can't we slaughter , dogs, cats or other animals in the name of Allah? just because the culture we live in frowns upon it??

Nowhere in the verses making 'grazing animals' lawful does Allah use the word 'only' or hints that animals in other categories are haram! sorry, but it remains an implicit deduction and Brother Joseph himself in his article says so, that it is a deduction!

Anyway to make the point clearer let's take a look at some other verses,

 033.059
“O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should bring down (Arabic: Yudnina) over them their outer garment (Arabic: jalabibihin): that is most convenient, that they should be recognized (Arabic: Yu'rafna) and not given trouble. And God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”

In the above verse, Allah uses the word ' Jilbab', Why does He do it? Because the Arab women were familiar with the term 'Jilbab'. now, can anyone say that Jilbab' is the only acceptable garment for women when they go out?? ' Jilbab' is named explicitly here, so other clothes that cover appropriately should still be haram according to the logic you guys are using.

Allah uses the word Jilbab because it covers the body appropriately and also it was a clothe the Arabs were already familiar with, that does not mean only Jilbabs are allowed for women! Similarly, from the other verses we can conclude that ' grazing animals' are halal. we cannot conclude other animals are haram. There is not enough information in the verses to deduce such a thing.

All the verses you guys are quoting just makes 'grazing animals' halal for consumption. They do not make other animals haram for consumption!

About the donkey, mules and horses verse, yes, it is said that they are made for show and  for us to ride, but the verse does not say they are not for food! This is again a deduction! Cows are also mentioned, some for burden , some for food, but does that mean that the same cows and camels we use for burden cannot be used for food? The verse is asking us to think about Allah's mercy and how He has made other animals subservient to us to make our lives easier. Nowhere in the verse does Allah say they are not for food! or they are only for riding and for showing!

Basically u guys are asking for explicit verses from us ( me, brother Arman and brother Ismail) making animals from other categories lawful. Well we have told you guys that the Quran is silent about other categories of animals, that does not make it unlawful. Allah makes things unlawful when He mentions them explicitly in the Quran, just because other categories are not mentioned does not make them haram! Now, I ask you guys to give me a verse from the Quran that mentions other categories by name and makes them unlawful. Not verses from where you implicitly deduce such a prohibition, clear explicit verses.It can't be done because there is no such verse!
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Saba on February 02, 2014, 11:25:03 PM
Salaam Nura . You keep repeating the same old argument over and over again. It really isn't convincing. Allah makes lawful and unlawful in the Qur'an. In verse 5-1 he makes GRAZING LIVESTOCK halal - lawful. There are two deductions from that:

(1) Other animals are therefore haram
(2) All other animals are halal as well

You are also deducing when you say number (2) which the Quran gives you no right to as well if you think deduction is wrong. I keep asking why mention a category of animals at all if all animals were halal anyway?. Sorry but none of your answers or bro Ismail's make any logical sense. Sorry - but to me they don't and I'm sure others agree!

And you know, demanding proof isn't against the Qu'ran. The Qu'ran was speaking to Jews and Christians too and they never ate this kind of stuff so it would have made sense that the Qur'an clarified... but instead it only confirmed the general category of grazing livestock which they knew to eat anyway!!!!! How else would the food of the people of the book be lawful for believer's and believer's food lawful for people of the book such as Jews and Christians? (5:5) How can cats and dogs and lions be lawful for Jews and Christians?

Also you keep quoting br. joseph, yet he made it clear to ArmanAziz with examples how the Quran prohibits before ArmanAziz decided to get personal with br. Joseph.  You are also deducing, but your deduction ...just does not stand up to examination.

Simple q which you, or Arman Aziz or Ismail could not answer properly....

"Why did Allah mention grazing animals for lawfulness in verse 5-1 if all animals were halal anyway?"

Saba

Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Saba on February 02, 2014, 11:35:10 PM
Oh yes! and one more thing ... by your own logic Nura .....


If Allah has made mates for us and makes lawful for sex other humans with nikaah- then why do you prohibit another category such as bestiality which has nothing to do with humans? By your own method - Where does the Qur'an make haram this separate category which has nothing to do with humans!!!!???? You just can't get out of this. By your own reasoning your method is inconsistent!!!!

Anyway - don't want to go off topic .. just shared that to show the inconsistency of your method!!!! Salaam Saba
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Nura on February 02, 2014, 11:53:08 PM
Salam Saba :)

Regardin bestiality and homosexuality,

the use of the phrase "mates from your own kind" closes the scope of sleeping with animals!! this is not a deduction!! the phrase is there "your own kind'! this make only humans lawful. Allah is not silent here. He has said 'mates from your own kind'

" what's wrong you approach men with lust?  also closes the door for homosexuality...where is deduction here??

and also we are not using the verses that u people are using to make carnivores and omnivores haram to justify consumption of carnivores and omnivores. We are using the absence of a verse prohibiting such a behavior to justify consumption of carnivores and omnivores!

I said from the verses u guys quote  we can only say that herbivores are halal!! we cannot say carnivores and omnivores are haram!! because they are not mentioned in the verse! there is no recommendation or prohibition on consumption of carnivores and omnivores in those verse!! these categories are not mentioned! if the word 'only' had been used in the verses making 'grazing animals' halal. I would have never argued with u guys :). I am not too keen about eating dogs or cats, trust me!!

we have told you repeatedly that 'grazing animals are mentioned because people in Arabia were already consuming them before the advent of the Quran! just like the way the words 'Jilbab' and ' khimar' are used to refer to clothes because they are clothes of the 7th century Arab!!we  gave u a reason for the usage of the phrase 'grazing animals', u are not convinced. its fine. Its not our job to convince u or vice versa!! I have said before as well, if I am wrong may Allah guide me!!

 :) :)
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Nura on February 02, 2014, 11:58:17 PM
Salam Saba,

I told u before certain foods were made unlawful for people of the book as punishment!!the Quran says so..

now if the Quran says that those animals are not prohibited explicitly, then Allah has lifts that prohibition!just like the way the Bible says circumcision is mandatory, but the Quran does not say any such thing. so I beleive it is not mandatory. The Quran is a guide over Bible and it sometimes overrides the verses of the Bible!! the Quran says this, " the Quran is revealed to lift some of the the burden from them.

and also only the foods that are halal declared in the Quran can be eaten. people of the book eat some foods that are not halal for us!!! so we can eat those food that are already halal in the Quran.
:)
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Saba on February 03, 2014, 12:27:52 AM
Salam Saba,

I told u before certain foods were made unlawful for people of the book as punishment!!the Quran says so..

now if the Quran says that those animals are not prohibited explicitly, then Allah has lifts that prohibition!just like the way the Bible says circumcision is mandatory, but the Quran does not say any such thing. so I beleive it is not mandatory. The Quran is a guide over Bible and it sometimes overrides the verses of the Bible!! the Quran says this, " the Quran is revealed to lift some of the the burden from them.

and also only the foods that are halal declared in the Quran can be eaten. people of the book eat some foods that are not halal for us!!! so we can eat those food that are already halal in the Quran.
:)


Salam Nura - You are still not answering my question and this discussion is going around in circles. So let me ask the question again ...


Quote
The Qu'ran was speaking to Jews and Christians too and they never ate this kind of stuff so it would have made sense that the Qur'an clarified... but instead it only confirmed the general category of grazing livestock which they knew to eat anyway!!!!! How else would the food of the people of the book be lawful for believer's and believer's food lawful for people of the book such as Jews and Christians? (5:5) How can cats and dogs and lions be lawful for Jews and Christians?

"Why did Allah mention grazing animals for lawfulness in verse 5-1 if all animals were halal anyway?"


Now with rest of you what you stated -

Quote
the use of the phrase "mates from your own kind" closes the scope of sleeping with animals!! this is not a deduction!! the phrase is there "your own kind'! this make only humans lawful. Allah is not silent here. He has said 'mates from your own kind'

Why, where does it say that according to your logic? Why are you comparing humans with animals? This is no different from saying we made lawful for you grazing livestock. This also closes the scope of eating any other animal. By your logic, this is also not a deduction.  The phrase is 'grazing livestock'. this makes only grazing livestock lawful.

Quote
" what's wrong you approach men with lust?  also closes the door for homosexuality...where is deduction here??

The deduction is that the Qur'an is asking a question why do you approach men with lust?? That means then SEX with them is forbidden. Its called a deduction. Now, if the Quran said - DO NOT HAVE SEX WITH MEN - then that would be an explicit statement and no need for a deduction. Please try to understand what I am saying here ...

Saba  8) :)

Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Duster on February 03, 2014, 12:32:18 AM
Shalom / Peace ... just imagine >>>> what traditionalists will be thinking ... you quran-only people can't even decide what to eat and you lecture us about our divisions and sects! ... I sometimes think we are our own worst enemies.
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Duster on February 03, 2014, 12:35:26 AM
Btw - I find the evidence that only grazing animals are lawful because of the first verse of Surah Maida (5.1) as it is explicitly stated most convincing.
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Saba on February 03, 2014, 12:39:10 AM
Shalom / Peace ... just imagine >>>> what traditionalists will be thinking ... you quran-only people can't even decide what to eat and you lecture us about our divisions and sects! ... I sometimes think we are our own worst enemies.

Salaam Duster. This is actually a very important point that you r saying. A recent post was made by br. Joseph which was soo true and I think it is very related. I'll share it here as I think there is a lot of good points in it.

https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/375493445921122


Quote
When one is asked to leave the blind beliefs of their forefathers, they must feel confident that what is being presented to them as an alternative, is far better than their existing ways.

Unless and until Quran-focused groups can become a more concerted, scholarly force to reckon with, they will continue to be looked at by suspicion by the masses.

When fundamental concepts, such as salat, its meaning, its numbers, fasting, zakat, whether or not intoxicants are forbidden, meaning of well understood Arabic words etc. are questioned, hotly debated at times with vitriol, harm is only done to the 'approach' as it displays rudimentary fluidity of thought.

I pray for a day when excellence in the form of Quranic studies becomes the mainstay of many institutions and communities around the world.


Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: AbbsRay on February 03, 2014, 02:24:47 AM
Salaam Nura,

I would like you to listen to Verse 6:141 in Arabic. God is saying ya min anami and  hamūlatan.
Than these words, mutashābihan /waghayra/mutashābihin repeated again, these words Allah is talking about Fruit. Now compare that about the animals. BJ already laid out the words on bahimatu l'anaami. FOCUS on the word “ḥamūlatan” Than what BJ wrote will make sense hopefully.  This is the only way for those who are so focused on the grazing word to understand it when it is listened to when recited in Arabic. I say listen to these in Arabic because there are many arabic words that have no english meaning, so some are guessed on given the sentance.

Again, you are justifying stuff because Allah hasn't spelled it out to you. Sea creatures, I still stand to what I said earlier. There is something in the Quran still that will link to several verses about pacific things out of the sea for food consumption. Although BJ, put down it is any, we just need to connect the dots to something in the Quran that is more clearier to why certain sea creatures.

To me anyways, there are MANY creatures in the sea that are POISONOUS; I find it impossible for Allah to tell us to eat stuff that will cause Kidney Failure even if the creature is cooked. This is not me saying this, but medical fact of many cases that happened. There are a chance one will get us paralyzed, severe nerve damage and so on.. HARMFUL!!  Puffer Fish for example will cause you and HAS caused paralysis and eventually, death.  Are you saying that our Merciful God who created these sea  creatures being poisonous and deadly evolved different types of predatory and defensive mechanisms in order to survive themselves  that He is going to tell us to eat such and have harmful consequences? People 1400 years ago when the Quran was revealed do not have the means to know what is poisonous and what is not; it is not mentioned in the Quran.  When Allah says He provides what is good for you and pure He certainly is not talking about Poisonous creatures He created.  So is Allah contradicting Himself when He says He provides what is good for us? I do not think so, one must use their brain. The sea is full of snakes that only live in the sea.  Is Allah saying one can eat that too?
I can list you hundreds of creatures from the sea and land that even if you cook them, they still will cause extreme medical harm and even kill you, many people have died or are living with severe medical issues that has inflicted their entire life and it is irreversible and permanent, because on consuming some creatures from the sea. Do you think God does not know this but He is telling us to eat what we want from the sea? It does not make logic sense. God will not do this, it is like giving someone a loaded gun, with one bullet in it and telling them to pull the trigger and there are chances you will get the bullet that is in there or not when you pull the trigger. God is too merciful and just and will not do that. To me anyways it makes no sense. I do not say this because I am an animal lover, I cannot prohibit stuff or say Allah said it is prohibited when He does not, but there is certainly more in the Quran we have not found when it comes to the Sea creatures.  You mention sea weeds (great for facials btw, lol) but you know how much fungus weeds, among many other plants that live down in the sea that will kill you within minutes after you consume it? So did Allah mean everything in the sea knowing what He created down there will kill you? Is Allah trying to trick us and make us die after He tells us go ahead the sea it is open for everything?  How would the people way before the Quran was revealed know that some of these creatures will kill them if they consumed them? How would the people know this when the Quran was first revealed? They certainly did not. Why would Allah say such and contradict himself on wanting what is good for us?
taʾkulūna    laḥman    ṭariyyan
In verse 35:12 and other verses, it is some fresh tender meat. How can a poisonous creature be fresh tender meat? It is suppose to be good for us right? So how is that so? Does God have to spell it out for us or it is considered lawful? People are arrogant to understand that Allah does not have to spell everything out; it does not mean it is lawful. God tells us throughout the Quran to use our intellect. Therefore as for me, it makes no logic sense.  Knowing the God I love and respect above all things, He would never do that to His servants. As Allah says in many verses, 31:27 And if all the trees in the earth were pens, and the sea, with seven more seas to help it, were ink, the words of Allah could not be exhausted. Lo! Allah is Mighty, Wise. Same thing with verse 18:109. I wonder how confused people would be if He sent more books with the Quran? They still would justify things and not understand.
I seriously can careless what people do, but understand what God is saying instead of saying He is saying this and that. If one is unsure, we can guess but that leads to confusion and causing people to do things that God is not allowing. One needs to study and ponder on what God is saying. It is one HUGE do’s and don’ts, that all meets in the middle on every subject. Each verse in the Quran is so filled with knowledge and compacted in little few words for some and more for others to get the message out.
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Ismail on February 03, 2014, 02:45:39 AM
Salaam.

Vehement arguments will not cause people to get disgruntled with the site.

Arguments mired with sarcastic remarks will certainly take the sheen out of this site.

The Chief Administrator must institute strict rules of conversation.

That will, in sha Allah, bring to bear the Grace of Allah upon this site.

Saba,

Please note that in 5:4, we have: They ask you what has been made halaal for them. Say, good things, and what your trained hunting animals catch for you...

Again, in 5:5, this day are all good things made lawful for you, the food of the people of the book...

In 5:1, of course, special mention is made of ordinary livestock.

This is because livestock come under the category of good and wholesome food.

More over, the four exceptions are preeminently suited to the livestock. One of the reasons is that swine tended to be bracketed with ordinary livestock, or even preferably better for those who relished it.

So the paramount necessity for it to be exempted from being counted among the livestock.

The ordinary livestock are the major-most and widely appreciated, preferred, and commonly used item of meat. At least, before the cheap poultry has taken over this preference from at least the lower income group of society, thanks to technological innovations.

Due to these, and may be not-mentioned reasons of clarification from the public, or whatever other reason, the Omniscient Almighty mentioned it as having been made halaal.

The whole Qur'an is replete with the utmost leniency regarding every regulation except the moral ones - the Core, Cardinal, Universal Values - The Spiritual Legacy of All Mankind - as in (6:151-152-153).

Among the Cardinal Values, is the prohibition of all kinds of obscenities. Therefore, there is no ambiguity regarding the prohibition of fornication, adultery, homosexuality, bestiality, all kinds of sexual perversion and depravity, miserliness, avarice, etc.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: AbbsRay on February 03, 2014, 03:04:12 AM
Salaam Ismail,

"Arguments mired with sarcastic remarks will certainly take the sheen out of this site"

How am I being sarcastic? Seriously, think about it... people are going to say, well I want this creature because God, according to ones understanding of Gods verses He is not prohibiting it, so it is lawful. But I would never eat "such and such" not because it is lawful but it might be harmful to me? It goes against justifying what the overall message of what God is saying. God created all things, one does not think that He knows what will be absolutely toxic and deadly to the humans if consumed? I think not.. We are talking about Almighty, All Wise. That is why one should ponder and think about it from every angle.

So please tell me how I am being sarcastic? Please enlighten me with what I said?
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Ismail on February 03, 2014, 03:15:21 AM
Salaam.

Abbsrayray's latest post expresses heartfelt genuine concerns.

Even the laḥman ṭariyyan of well known, edible fish today is prone to mercury poisoning in some places on the globe.

Such are genuine concerns, and must be appreciated.

But this does not take away the decree of their being halaal.

They are not thayyib. God always asks us to eat that which is halaalan thayyiban (2:168, 5:88, 8:69, 16:114).

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait. 

Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: AbbsRay on February 03, 2014, 03:40:02 AM
Salaam Ismail,

I am certainly not talking about Mercury. I am talking about POISON and TOXINS, the creature has that Allah granted them by creating it in them to protect themselves, not just to sting other creatures to protect themselves. These poisons and toxins are in special tissues or organs that cause harm when eaten. A creature is considered venomous if there are specialized mechanisms to physically deliver the toxins through bites, spines and stings. For example, a pufferfish is poisonous when eaten even when cooked but is not venomous in that it does not bite or sting in order to deliver the toxins present in certain organs in its body. It is Gods creation. He made creatures to have communities like us and some for food... That is all I am saying..
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Saba on February 03, 2014, 03:42:35 AM
In 5:1, of course, special mention is made of ordinary livestock. This is because livestock come under the category of good and wholesome food.

The ordinary livestock are the major-most and widely appreciated, preferred, and commonly used item of meat. At least, before the cheap poultry has taken over this preference from at least the lower income group of society, thanks to technological innovations.

Salaam br. Ismail. Can't you see why some will simply not see this as a convincing response? If the Arabs knew to eat grazing livestock, why make specific mention of it at the expense of more exotic type of animals which was not common to eat??? As I said before ....the Qu'ran was speaking to Jews and Christians too and they never ate this kind of stuff so it would have made sense that the Qur'an clarified... but instead it only confirmed the general category of grazing livestock which they knew to eat anyway!!!!! How else would the food of the people of the book be lawful for believer's and believer's food lawful for people of the book such as Jews and Christians? (5:5) How can cats and dogs and lions be lawful for Jews and Christians?

Can't you see that br. Ismail????? Would verse 5-1 not be the perfect place to expect a clear clarification that all animals were made lawful? Why single out livestock?

Now I mean this really nicely ......I am still not getting a convincing response from you on this question. So I will put it out there again ....

"Why did Allah mention grazing animals for lawfulness in verse 5-1 if all animals were halal anyway?"   Saba   8) :)
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Saba on February 03, 2014, 03:44:09 AM
Salaam Ismail,

I am certainly not talking about Mercury. I am talking about POISON and TOXINS, the creature has that Allah granted them by creating it in them to protect themselves, not just to sting other creatures to protect themselves. These poisons and toxins are in special tissues or organs that cause harm when eaten. A creature is considered venomous if there are specialized mechanisms to physically deliver the toxins through bites, spines and stings. For example, a pufferfish is poisonous when eaten even when cooked but is not venomous in that it does not bite or sting in order to deliver the toxins present in certain organs in its body. It is Gods creation. He made creatures to have communities like us and some for food... That is all I am saying..

Agree  :)
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: AbbsRay on February 03, 2014, 03:50:48 AM
Sallam Saba,

I think BJ, nailed it on a different forum just now about when God says all such as fruits. Certainly there are poisonous and toxic  fruits, He is not saying go ahead eat those too. Allah is All Wise All Knowing AllMighty... He certainly wants one to use their intellect. He certainly uses an example with the fruits not prohibiting, which is another example for the sea creatures.

Thanks Brother Joseph about the fruit comments.. Hopefully that will end the justification of these verses.  :)
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Saba on February 03, 2014, 03:52:31 AM
Salaam.

Abbsrayray's latest post expresses heartfelt genuine concerns.

Even the laḥman ṭariyyan of well known, edible fish today is prone to mercury poisoning in some places on the globe.

Such are genuine concerns, and must be appreciated.

But this does not take away the decree of their being halaal.

They are not thayyib. God always asks us to eat that which is halaalan thayyiban (2:168, 5:88, 8:69, 16:114).

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

Salaambr. Ismail, ....And what I have been saying to you, without meaning to be rude is that 5-1 in the Qur'an makes grazing livestock halal be explicit mention!.  Why mention a specific category if all animals were lawful anyway???
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: AbbsRay on February 03, 2014, 03:55:27 AM
Salaam,

Maybe this will help...  ;D ;D

http://quransmessage.com/forum/forum.htm
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Saba on February 03, 2014, 04:06:30 AM
Salaam Abbsrayray.. Thanks for informing. I checked it out below. Your link seemed to go to the general site... Thanks Saba  ;D 8)

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1133


Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: AbbsRay on February 03, 2014, 04:16:19 AM
Salaam Saba,

Thank You!! :)
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: optimist on February 03, 2014, 04:54:04 AM
Dear Nura, Ismail,   Salam alaikum

Due to time constraint now, let me ask you a few small questions briefly before I post my comments for many points raised.  I hope to respond later in detail when I have enough time. 

Suppose in a class room, a teacher says, "all boys are permitted to go outside except those in the back seat"

1. Does this instruction in any manner apply to the girls in the classroom?   And if girls are also allowed to go outside, will any teacher make any such statement focusing boys?

2. Don't you think the girls by default are exempted from this instruction even without using the word "ONLY boys...."?

Well, can you satisfactorily explain why Quran has brought up an exception clause in 5:1 along with permissibility of eating grazing livestock and start to mention such exceptions in 5:3 without focusing on all animals?  If all animals are allowed to be eaten, it should have been specified in 5:3 that the prohibition for eating the dead, the blood, and dedicated unto any other than Allah are applicable for all animals. 

DO YOU EXPECT THAT ALLAH IS FORBIDDING HERE (ALSO IN 6:145)  PEOPLE FROM DEDICATING  RATS, CATS, MONKEYS, AND DOGS TO OTHERS OTHER THAN ALLAH???? (ALLAH FORBID!!).  You don‘t know what a twisted barbaric analysis you are making.  Even the eyes of shame should bow down in shame if you go for such ridiculous explanations.

Also can you satisfactorily answer why so many exceptions are provided for grazing livestock which is normally eaten by people (Quran clearly says “some for burden and some for meat” (6:142) horses and mules and asses for you to ride (16:,8), etc),  whereas no exceptions are not provided for animals which are normally NOT eaten by people in the world (including you!)? Among all other animals everything is allowed..(sigh!)

Regards,
Optimist
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Truth Seeker on February 03, 2014, 06:36:54 AM
Salaam all,

Clearly this is a hotly debated topic and emotions are running high. I encourage you all to continue sharing your views but please may I remind members to refrain from making comments that may offend others.

Optimist, your shame comment is an example of what others may deem inappropriate, but please do continue to contribute to the forum as you, like all members are valued here.
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: AbbsRay on February 03, 2014, 07:29:04 AM
Salamun Alaikum Brother Joseph,

I got another question about this topic..

I am not sure how to ask this without making it sound gross and perverted but here it goes...

Allah says for the meat when it is allowed to slaughter "Certain" animals.  I know that animals produce milk, eggs when they are alive. But isn't there a limitations, like I know blood is not allowed from the animal, how about body parts?

I was at this middle eastern restaurant/store a bit ago grabbing something, (non meat of course) when a lady nearly had a fit because they were out of testicles. I mean she was PISSED!  She than went to talk to the butcher and said her husband was craving testicles  ??? and if it was possible if they can have some the following day. She actually insisted they slaughter some sheep to have more stock for testicles. I have even seen tongues (puking in my mouth) in the cooler as I close my eyes and look away..  I know many eat heads, brains, intestines and many many more..  I mean come on... lets kill an animal so we can eat it's private parts? Is this even permissible? Isn't it prohibited to slaughter thousands of innocent animals so they can be placed on a cooler shelf "GREED" or to get pacific body parts?

Shukrun in advance...
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: optimist on February 03, 2014, 02:16:18 PM
I agree with brother Ismail when he says that 'grazing animals' is specifically mentioned because Arabs were consuming them during the 7th Century. And so Allah says they can continue to consume 'grazing animals' with the exception of swine.

Dear Nura, Ismail,  Salaam!!

I believe, it is preferable to address different points under different posts. So, let us check further whether there is any logic in the above statement. 

According to me, ONLY under a circumstance when people specifically ask a specific question whether it is permissible to eat “grazing animals”, Allah would be stating that it is permissible to eat “grazing animals”.  Please think.  As you know, there are many verses in the Quran which start with “they ask you about” so and so and Allah says “tell them” and then the Quran goes on to state the related injunctions.  The verses 5:1-3 are not just verses making just a confirmation of something people already considered as lawful,  rather it was providing a comprehensive instruction with detailed exceptions.  Anyhow, there is absolutely no other reason other than a specific question from the people to focus on "grazing animals".   Unfortunately;

1. There is no implication in the verse that such a specific question was ever asked by the people.

2. There is no possibility for people asking such a specific question because eating grazing livestock is generally accepted as allowed and permissible and people had been eating the same. 

Therefore, two possibilities;

1. Allah wanted to explain through the Quran (being a complete guidance for the people) the animals permissible for them to eat (by default the rest not permissible). 

2. The people wanted to know what are the animals allowed for them to eat (please note, in order to know the animals permissible to eat, no one with common sense would make a request for a list of prohibited animals since it would be a long list and it would be required to extract the permissible excluding the prohibited).  THINK.   A similar example could be found in marriage prohibition where Quran lists down those people to whom we are prohibited to get married in order to explain those we are allowed to marry (being infinite).  It would require to explain the prohibited to make people know what is permissible.  This is simple logic.

And again, the question still remains to be answered; why to focus on something which is already considered as permissible and lawful by the people (as I said, even a silence on this could be termed as permissibility); and why no focus on other animals which are considered as unlawful and not permissible.   

Regards,
Optimist
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Deliverance on February 03, 2014, 04:12:38 PM
Does vers 5-1 include grazing animals in the sea this would answer the debate about if sharks and other predator in the sea are lawful because such fishes aren´t easy to hunt without difficulty an harm for both fish/man.
So "...the game of the sea..." is the grazing livestock of the ocean and most of them are in swarms like grazing animals on land are in Groups.And the form to hunt is to throw the net out in to the sea,and not by catching them with meat on fishing rod.

Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Deliverance on February 03, 2014, 04:36:46 PM
i forgotten to add Cormorant fishing a form of fishing http://mrjournalist.com/a-brief-history-of-cormorant-fishing/
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: optimist on February 03, 2014, 07:38:51 PM
Salaam Nura,

I would like you to listen to Verse 6:141 in Arabic. God is saying ya min anami and  hamūlatan.
Than these words, mutashābihan /waghayra/mutashābihin repeated again, these words Allah is talking about Fruit. Now compare that about the animals. BJ already laid out the words on bahimatu l'anaami. FOCUS on the word “ḥamūlatan” Than what BJ wrote will make sense hopefully.  This is the only way for those who are so focused on the grazing word to understand it when it is listened to when recited in Arabic. I say listen to these in Arabic because there are many arabic words that have no english meaning, so some are guessed on given the sentance.

Again, you are justifying stuff because Allah hasn't spelled it out to you. Sea creatures, I still stand to what I said earlier. There is something in the Quran still that will link to several verses about pacific things out of the sea for food consumption. Although BJ, put down it is any, we just need to connect the dots to something in the Quran that is more clearier to why certain sea creatures.

To me anyways, there are MANY creatures in the sea that are POISONOUS; I find it impossible for Allah to tell us to eat stuff that will cause Kidney Failure even if the creature is cooked. This is not me saying this, but medical fact of many cases that happened. There are a chance one will get us paralyzed, severe nerve damage and so on.. HARMFUL!!  Puffer Fish for example will cause you and HAS caused paralysis and eventually, death.  Are you saying that our Merciful God who created these sea  creatures being poisonous and deadly evolved different types of predatory and defensive mechanisms in order to survive themselves  that He is going to tell us to eat such and have harmful consequences? People 1400 years ago when the Quran was revealed do not have the means to know what is poisonous and what is not; it is not mentioned in the Quran.  When Allah says He provides what is good for you and pure He certainly is not talking about Poisonous creatures He created.  So is Allah contradicting Himself when He says He provides what is good for us? I do not think so, one must use their brain. The sea is full of snakes that only live in the sea.  Is Allah saying one can eat that too?
I can list you hundreds of creatures from the sea and land that even if you cook them, they still will cause extreme medical harm and even kill you, many people have died or are living with severe medical issues that has inflicted their entire life and it is irreversible and permanent, because on consuming some creatures from the sea. Do you think God does not know this but He is telling us to eat what we want from the sea? It does not make logic sense. God will not do this, it is like giving someone a loaded gun, with one bullet in it and telling them to pull the trigger and there are chances you will get the bullet that is in there or not when you pull the trigger. God is too merciful and just and will not do that. To me anyways it makes no sense. I do not say this because I am an animal lover, I cannot prohibit stuff or say Allah said it is prohibited when He does not, but there is certainly more in the Quran we have not found when it comes to the Sea creatures.  You mention sea weeds (great for facials btw, lol) but you know how much fungus weeds, among many other plants that live down in the sea that will kill you within minutes after you consume it? So did Allah mean everything in the sea knowing what He created down there will kill you? Is Allah trying to trick us and make us die after He tells us go ahead the sea it is open for everything?  How would the people way before the Quran was revealed know that some of these creatures will kill them if they consumed them? How would the people know this when the Quran was first revealed? They certainly did not. Why would Allah say such and contradict himself on wanting what is good for us?
taʾkulūna    laḥman    ṭariyyan
In verse 35:12 and other verses, it is some fresh tender meat. How can a poisonous creature be fresh tender meat? It is suppose to be good for us right? So how is that so? Does God have to spell it out for us or it is considered lawful? People are arrogant to understand that Allah does not have to spell everything out; it does not mean it is lawful. God tells us throughout the Quran to use our intellect. Therefore as for me, it makes no logic sense.  Knowing the God I love and respect above all things, He would never do that to His servants. As Allah says in many verses, 31:27 And if all the trees in the earth were pens, and the sea, with seven more seas to help it, were ink, the words of Allah could not be exhausted. Lo! Allah is Mighty, Wise. Same thing with verse 18:109. I wonder how confused people would be if He sent more books with the Quran? They still would justify things and not understand.
I seriously can careless what people do, but understand what God is saying instead of saying He is saying this and that. If one is unsure, we can guess but that leads to confusion and causing people to do things that God is not allowing. One needs to study and ponder on what God is saying. It is one HUGE do’s and don’ts, that all meets in the middle on every subject. Each verse in the Quran is so filled with knowledge and compacted in little few words for some and more for others to get the message out.

Thank you for posting these comments!

Regards,
Optimist
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Deliverance on February 03, 2014, 08:45:45 PM
Salam all,
I think we have discussed enough in details ,so could someone make an illustraion of this theme,cause Joseph has quit this thread.

Something like a bubble in the Center(all Food/drink lawful) and then right/left bubble (exept blood, dead,swine,alcool ) and destinction between sea and land Food which is poisionous,harmful for People or Environment and used for riding(carnivore and carcass eater,beast of burden)

I
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: optimist on February 03, 2014, 08:51:17 PM
Anyway to make the point clearer let's take a look at some other verses,
 033.059
“O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should bring down (Arabic: Yudnina) over them their outer garment (Arabic: jalabibihin): that is most convenient, that they should be recognized (Arabic: Yu'rafna) and not given trouble. And God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”

In the above verse, Allah uses the word ' Jilbab', Why does He do it? Because the Arab women were familiar with the term 'Jilbab'. now, can anyone say that Jilbab' is the only acceptable garment for women when they go out?? ' Jilbab' is named explicitly here, so other clothes that cover appropriately should still be haram according to the logic you guys are using.

Allah uses the word Jilbab because it covers the body appropriately and also it was a clothe the Arabs were already familiar with, that does not mean only Jilbabs are allowed for women! Similarly, from the other verses we can conclude that ' grazing animals' are halal. we cannot conclude other animals are haram. There is not enough information in the verses to deduce such a thing.

All the verses you guys are quoting just makes 'grazing animals' halal for consumption. They do not make other animals haram for consumption!
Salaam!

Sorry to say the discussion in the verse is not about JILBAB, whether wearing it is halaal or Haraam.  The question is regarding using Jilbaab to cover their bossom (24:31) without displaying their beauty. Therefore, I cannot find any links here with "grazing animals". 

Quote
About the donkey, mules and horses verse, yes, it is said that they are made for show and  for us to ride, but the verse does not say they are not for food! This is again a deduction! 


I can agree it is a deduction, but based on clear facts.  You have to read 16:8 with 6:142 where in it is clearly mentioned “some for burden and some for meat”.  The reference here is NOT about animals used simultaneously for burden and meat.  I can agree with you if you say their meat is not prohibited as such, however, their meat is not meant for food for us.  It may be that the horses were the main force for Jihad and were the protectors of the divine system and this could be one of the reasons why eating their meat was not encouraged and also it is quite logical that considering their valuable contribution in Jihad and other different uses, people (everywhere) do not normally eat them which Quran concurs (i.e., eating discouraged without bringing it under the category of prohibited animals).

Still my question; why all exclusions and discussion of animals are only from the category of "grazing animals"?  For all other categories of animals there are no exceptions mentioned...according to you, it is permissible to eat anything and everything.  As brother Joseph Islam has pointed out, if all animals are allowed,  God could have simply said only 'swine' is prohibited and everything else is lawful if that was the intention!!

Regards,
Optimist
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Joseph Islam on February 04, 2014, 03:26:41 AM
Salamun Alaikum Brother Joseph,

I got another question about this topic..

I am not sure how to ask this without making it sound gross and perverted but here it goes...

Allah says for the meat when it is allowed to slaughter "Certain" animals.  I know that animals produce milk, eggs when they are alive. But isn't there a limitations, like I know blood is not allowed from the animal, how about body parts?

I was at this middle eastern restaurant/store a bit ago grabbing something, (non meat of course) when a lady nearly had a fit because they were out of testicles. I mean she was PISSED!  She than went to talk to the butcher and said her husband was craving testicles  ??? and if it was possible if they can have some the following day. She actually insisted they slaughter some sheep to have more stock for testicles. I have even seen tongues (puking in my mouth) in the cooler as I close my eyes and look away..  I know many eat heads, brains, intestines and many many more..  I mean come on... lets kill an animal so we can eat it's private parts? Is this even permissible? Isn't it prohibited to slaughter thousands of innocent animals so they can be placed on a cooler shelf "GREED" or to get pacific body parts?

Shukrun in advance...

Wa alaikum assalam Abbsrayray

040.079
"It is God Who made cattle for you, that you may use some for riding and some for food (you eat)"

As well as verse 5:1, it is clear that cattle has been made lawful for food out of which some are for riding and other uses (16:8; 40:80). No other category of animal has been so explicitly mentioned for purposes of food and indeed, the overlaps are evident with the food category of the People of the Book.

Once a 'lawful' animal has been slaughtered for the purposes of food, then there are no further restrictions given as to what cannot be eaten from that animal. It is down to personal taste even though it may appear very unpalatable to another. Even if an animal is slaughtered for a particular body that of course, does not mean that the remainder of the animal will not be available for food. Such body parts are usually eaten as a result of the animal being slaughtered for its main purpose, which is its flesh.

I hope that helps, God willing
Joseph

Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: optimist on February 04, 2014, 03:43:10 AM
Allah makes things unlawful when He mentions them explicitly in the Quran, just because other categories are not mentioned does not make them haram! Now, I ask you guys to give me a verse from the Quran that mentions other categories by name and makes them unlawful. Not verses from where you implicitly deduce such a prohibition, clear explicit verses.It can't be done because there is no such verse!
Salaam!

I believe this is your main point in the entire discussion.  If you are saying as a general principle that whatever not explicitly mentioned in the Quran as prohibited cannot be considered as forbidden, you are wrong.   If that is the case, the Quran would contain endless lists of prohibitions and permissions.  Based on the same logic, will you also say that Allah makes things lawful only when He mentions them explicitly in the Quran?  Your demand to show you explicit verses from Quran mentioning the categories of animals by names that are made unlawful is very silly.   Are you sure that the Arabs were even aware about all different categories of animals?   It is just sufficient to state the permissible animals in order to understand what are not permissible. 

Anyhow, it need not necessary that all lawful and unlawful things are to be explicitly mentioned in the Quran to make them lawful and unlawful.   At the same time, Quran being a complete source of guidance, we shall be able to deduct the permissibility and non permissibility of any given issue either through explicit verses,  implicit verses, including general principles contained in the Quran.  For example, permissibility or non permissibility of organ donation, smoking, etc is decided not based on whether they are explicitly mentioned in the Quran, but based on deductions and general principles contained in the Quran. According to me, even the instruction in the Quran to eat what is Tayib is sufficient to prove Dogs, Cats, Rats, etc are not allowed.

A perusal of the Quran indicates that not many things we face in our day today affairs are declared explicitly as Haraam.  For many things simply boundary lines are drawn.  And human thought and intellect is left independent, free to soar, within the boundaries thus prescribed, so that it is free to find the solutions for the different issues and problems. Islam is a collective system of life where affairs are decided by mutual consultations focusing on the principles and general guidelines contained in the Quran.   Based on this, if an Islamic society reaches a decision, say for instance, organ donation is permissible, the decision should be respected and binding on all, irrespective of individual differences of opinion. 

Correct me if I have made anything wrong in the above comments.

Regards,
Optimist
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: AbbsRay on February 04, 2014, 08:13:55 AM
Salaam Optimist,

Was your last message to me? I only asked BJ about body parts.

I am so done with all this.

Salaam
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: optimist on February 04, 2014, 11:48:37 AM
Salaam Optimist,

Was your last message to me? I only asked BJ about body parts.

I am so done with all this.

Salaam
Wassalam,
For your question, I think JI has answered you
Regards
Optimist
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Ismail on February 05, 2014, 12:01:26 AM
Salaam.

DO YOU EXPECT THAT ALLAH IS FORBIDDING HERE (ALSO IN 6:145)  PEOPLE FROM DEDICATING  RATS, CATS, MONKEYS, AND DOGS TO OTHERS OTHER THAN ALLAH???? (ALLAH FORBID!!)

But I have seen people slaughter poultry on the altar of a Hindu temple in Andhra Prdesh, India.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Saba on February 05, 2014, 12:13:47 AM
But I have seen people slaughter poultry on the altar of a Hindu temple in Andhra Prdesh, India.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.


Salaam Br Ismail. Poultry and grazing animals are eaten as part of lawful food. Do you know of any community or communities now or ever where dogs, cats, rats, lions or anything thing but livestock was sacrificed to gods?? especially at the time around Arabia when prophet muhammad (saw) was preaching?  Thanks Saba
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Deliverance on February 05, 2014, 12:51:13 AM
Honeynectar and quails better then vegetable?

(56) And We caused the white cloud to overshadow you and sent down on you the manna and the quails, (saying): Eat of the good things wherewith We have provided you ...."(60) And when ye said: O Moses! We are weary of one kind of food; so call upon thy Lord for us that He bring forth for us of that which the earth groweth - of its herbs and its cucumbers and its corn and its lentils and its onions. He said: Would ye exchange that which is higher for that which is lower? ..."

Sorry for always interrupting your debate
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Ismail on February 05, 2014, 01:59:02 AM
Salaam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashvamedha

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Saba on February 05, 2014, 02:19:59 AM
Thanks for sharing br. Ismail. As per my post, I was referring to "especially at the time around Arabia when prophet muhammad (saw) was preaching?"  I am sure all sorts of things were sacrificed. I mean even the Quran recognized that humans were possibly sacrificed otherwise why would prophet Abraham even consider slaughtering his only son thinking it was from Allah (irrespective of whether or not Allah actually commanded it)? !!! But my question was more specific. Pls let me know if you have any info on that. As yet, I have not come across any info. Thanks Saba  8)

Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: optimist on February 05, 2014, 01:25:31 PM
Salaam.

DO YOU EXPECT THAT ALLAH IS FORBIDDING HERE (ALSO IN 6:145)  PEOPLE FROM DEDICATING  RATS, CATS, MONKEYS, AND DOGS TO OTHERS OTHER THAN ALLAH???? (ALLAH FORBID!!)

But I have seen people slaughter poultry on the altar of a Hindu temple in Andhra Prdesh, India.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts after reading the one highlighted in red...!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: optimist on February 05, 2014, 01:32:58 PM
But I have seen people slaughter poultry on the altar of a Hindu temple in Andhra Prdesh, India.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.


Salaam Br Ismail. Poultry and grazing animals are eaten as part of lawful food. Do you know of any community or communities now or ever where dogs, cats, rats, lions or anything thing but livestock was sacrificed to gods?? especially at the time around Arabia when prophet muhammad (saw) was preaching?  Thanks Saba

Don't worry Saba, in future there is possibility of this happening if discussions like this take place in muslim community (sigh)!
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Ismail on February 05, 2014, 08:02:51 PM
Salaam.

Saba,

Your question was:

"Do you know of any community or communities now or ever where dogs, cats, rats, lions or anything thing but livestock was sacrificed to gods?? especially at the time around Arabia when prophet Muhammad (saw) was preaching?"

I have answered the first part of your question.

As for "especially ...", I do not have any particular resource to answer it. Let us focus on the Omniscient.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait. 
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Saba on February 05, 2014, 08:26:49 PM
As for "especially ...", I do not have any particular resource to answer it. 
Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

Salaam ...Thanks for being frank. Actually this was the relevant part for the thread topic...but even more importantly, if you have a more convincing answer now or in the future than you have already given for my main question I have repeated many times.. please do share br. Ismail.

"Why did Allah mention grazing animals for lawfulness in verse 5-1 if all animals were halal anyway?"

Saba  8) :)
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Ismail on February 05, 2014, 11:51:19 PM
Salaam.

Al Hamdu Lillah, I am trying to write a comprehensive, strictly Qur'anic review of the lawful and unlawful as regards non veg food.

The following is an off-the-cuff answer:

Supposing, all the boys in a school have gathered for the morning prayers.

There, the Principal announces, by naming three boys belonging to the 4th Standard that they are allowed to attend classes.

After the prayer meeting, all the boys, including the named ones will march to their respective classes.

Nobody will think that what the Principal meant was that only the named ones should attend classes.

Similar is the case of (5:1) as regards allowing the named category. The context here seems to be any possible doubt or a question regarding the continuation of the traditional culture of eating Al An'am. I have already dwelt on this in a previous post.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Saba on February 05, 2014, 11:58:22 PM
Salaam.

Al Hamdu Lillah, I am trying to write a comprehensive, strictly Qur'anic review of the lawful and unlawful as regards non veg food.

The following is an off-the-cuff answer:

Supposing, all the boys in a school have gathered for the morning prayers.

There, the Principal announces, by naming three boys belonging to the 4th Standard that they are allowed to attend classes.

After the prayer meeting, all the boys, including the named ones will march to their respective classes.

Nobody will think that what the Principal meant was that only the named ones should attend classes.

Similar is the case of (5:1) as regards allowing the named category. The context here seems to be any possible doubt or a question regarding the continuation of the traditional culture of eating Al An'am. I have already dwelt on this in a previous post.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 


Salaam Ismail. I don't see what your analogy has to do with the question. Why does Allah have to mention grazing livestock which the Arabs already knew to eat this if the intention was to make all animals halal anyway? Can't you see this?????? Also it would have made far more sense to mention the lawfulness of other animals like dogs and cats etc especially as the followers of previous scriptures didn't eat this as lawful food. The Qur'an would have expected to clarified this. How else can the food of believers be lawful to people of the book and vice versa?? (5:5). It a simple argument but without meaning to sound rude you are not providing any convincing arguments. So I'll ask again politely ......

"Why did Allah mention grazing animals for lawfulness in verse 5-1 if all animals were halal anyway?"

and

How can the food of believers (if dogs and cats be eaten) be lawful for the people of the book (5:5)?
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Ismail on February 06, 2014, 01:55:07 AM
Salaam.

Please don't think I am in anyway disgruntled with your posts.

I have a duty to make myself understood.

I will begin with my following post:

Reply #78 on: February 02, 2014, 08:15:21 PM

Salaam.

Abbsrayray's latest post expresses heartfelt genuine concerns.

Even the laḥman ṭariyyan of well known, edible fish today is prone to mercury poisoning in some places on the globe.

Such are genuine concerns, and must be appreciated.

But this does not take away the decree of their being halaal.

They are not thayyib. God always asks us to eat that which is halaalan thayyiban (2:168, 5:88, 8:69, 16:114).

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.


The example was conventional edible fish, but, prone to mercury poisoning in some parts of the Globe, due probably to industrial effluents seeping into the sea - a modern phenomenon.

Then I said, that flesh of the edible type of fish, designated laḥman ṭariyyan (fresh and tender), as in (16:14 and 35:12), does not automatically become divinely allowable, in view of 2:168, 5:88, 8:69, and 16:114.

Such exceptions due to natural viciousness, or artificially caused viciousness will be many, as regards animal food in general.

As such our generalized expression "cats,dogs, rats, etc." is misleading.
                                                                                                                                                            There are more things to be made clear, in sha Allah, sooner than later.

Only then, your two questions may be deemed answered properly. Meanwhile, you are most welcome to ask for any clarification.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: optimist on February 06, 2014, 02:51:43 AM
The following is an off-the-cuff answer:

Supposing, all the boys in a school have gathered for the morning prayers.

There, the Principal announces, by naming three boys belonging to the 4th Standard that they are allowed to attend classes.

After the prayer meeting, all the boys, including the named ones will march to their respective classes.

Nobody will think that what the Principal meant was that only the named ones should attend classes.

Similar is the case of (5:1) as regards allowing the named category. The context here seems to be any possible doubt or a question regarding the continuation of the traditional culture of eating Al An'am. I have already dwelt on this in a previous post.

Salam alaikum brother Ismail,

:)

Actually, you know, this analogy will create problem for you.   By naming three boys belonging to the 4th Standard and informing them that they are allowed to attend classes  (in a case where all are supposed to go to classes after prayer meeting), it would certainly mean that these boys were NOT allowed to attend classes after prayer meeting (since they were under some sort of punishment or so).  THINK.  Based on this analogy it would mean that grazing animals were not allowed before the verses (5:1-3) were revealed.  Do you have such a case?   Please bring some other example if you can.  Take it as a challenge.  Let us evaluate.
 
I will tell you simple analogy (I mentioned earlier).   Suppose in a class room, a teacher says, "all boys are permitted to go outside except those in the back seat", does this instruction in any way apply to the girls in the classroom?   The answer is BIG NO.  And if girls are also allowed to go outside, will any teacher make any such statement focusing boys?  CERTAINLY NOT.

Regards,
Optimist
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Ismail on February 07, 2014, 02:10:00 AM
Salaam.

And, Saba,

The food of The people of the Book is lawful for us because they do not slaughter anything unwholesome.

Also, Muslims do not slaughter anything unwholesome.

The term used in the relevant verse (5:5) is Alladheena Oothul Kithaba, and not Ahlul Kithab, for the Jews and Christians.

Each term has been used in the Qur'an in particular places to denote the Jews and the Christians.

And, according to one opinion, the former term denotes the true believers, and, the latter term is used in general, as we use the term 'Muslim', in general.

Since, in (5:5), the former term is used, it means the food of the upright among the people of the book.

Also, in (5:5), it is not said that the Muslim's food is halaal for them. The pronoun 'your' is used, denoting Prophet Muhammed's flock. God's Choicest Blessings be on them.

For example, here in India, as far as I have seen, when any animal like a bull, sheep or poultry nears its death especially due to some disease, and the keeper loses hope of its recovery, it is rushed to some Mullah, who slaauters it in the name of God. And everybody considers it allowed.

At the same time, everybody agrees that it doesn't taste good. Naturally, all the poison produced in its body by the disease will be there in its flesh.

And, God forbids all unwholesome food, unequivocally, in several places in Al Qur'an.

And, now, to quote from another post of mine in this thread,   Reply #55 on: February 01, 2014:                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             "Now, a word about "eating everything" except the prohibited 4 items.

The whole exercise of divine prohibitions begins with the words:

O ye people! Eat of what is on earth, lawful and good....(2:168)
"

The Qur'an mentions the quality of being thayyib (good or wholesome) for anything to be halaal (lawful). See (2:168, 5:88, 8:69, 16:114, 7:157).

The opposite of wholesome is unwholesome, as in 7:157. There, all unwholesome things are mentioned as forbidden.

Now, among Allah's myriad kinds of creatures - millions of them on this Earth, will you count as unwholesome all, other than the Baheemathul An'am of (5:1)?

Regards,
In all humbleness,
A. Ismail Sait.


Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: AbbsRay on February 07, 2014, 04:57:24 AM


Samaam Ismail,
In the name of Allah the most Merciful, can you please tell me how you interpret the verses in the Quran, what leads you to these conclusions? Interpretations? And do "you" come up with patching verses together when some of them have nothing to do with the matter of subject in the verse in question. I just want to see how you get your information of interpretation and meaning of words and verses. There are so many verses I can list for you that are CLEAR and straight forward as a WARNING from Allah on to stay SILENT if one has no KNOWLEDGE on His verses or words. Scholars, Mullahs, sheiks, imams are clueless beyond description and are leading their followers astray. Yet the heard of blind sheep are following them and obeying them.  It I considered SHIRK.
In this forum I just saw your response you responded to me about Mercury. I just saw this now before I asked you to tell me what several verses were in a different forum.. No need to reply to that question, it was merely me, wanting to see how you think and interpret what the verse is about or if there is any way of us knowing. It is apparent to me, when I saw your response about the Mercury, you did not get what I was saying, how the heck are you going to understand the Quran if you missed my point about the mercury part?  I even have grammatical errors and misspelled words, where Allah does not and you could not even understand what I was saying to you? MERCURY IS NOT CREATED BY ALLAH… IT COMES FROM HUMANS FROM THE ENVIROMENT, TOXINS AND POISONS THAT CERTAIN MAMMELS IN THE SEA ARE CREATED BY ALLAH TO HAVE THAT for reasons I listed.
I mean it in no disrespect brother, but you seriously need to ask Allah to guide you.
No one will ever know everything in the Quran nor the meanings.. There is stuff we will know and stuff no one will as Allah tells us. A TRUE BELIEVER/MUM'MIN will say I heard and obeyed, To Allah’s words not question what is clear and evident. I have so many verses I found about the whole animals subject out of the Quran, especially the cattle part you are not able to understand, that I can list but I will not because I want you to go and find it. I will give you a hint about what you are questioning when it comes to what animals to slaughter… look also in verse 39:06, DO NOT just focus on that verse, read a huge area around that verse, before and after, that is one of them, but there are more to the lawful and unlawful that I found…  Allah gives us examples and metaphors on things He already mentioned to make it clear, that is why you need to ponder on the entire Quran and not just verses. Allah even lists the animals that you are allowed to slaughter by name… It is in there, when He says this book is complete and clear, and everything we need to know is in there, it sure is…. One needs to PONDER hours at it each time and study it to get it, and only with Allah’s guidance and how much a person is sincere about Allah’s words, will He allow you to see it. Again; one needs to as for Allah’s guidance, be sincere about Allah’s message, have a clear head on what was taught or told to them from before and put their heart and mind in it to searching the truth. You’re not going to be able to do it unless Allah guides you. Clearly brother He has not. Believing in the Oneness of Allah, saying you are a Muslim is not enough for Allah; you take your actions and your deeds… EVERYTHING including what you are distorting out of his scriptures and clearly not knowing what they mean or what He is saying and telling others this is from Allah.. BTW, If you follow the Quran only, does not make you any different than the ones who are in a sect, or being in the same category… I only follow what the Quran says, but one needs to understand the Quran and what ALLAH is saying, not what you think HE is saying and allowing. You accept it once you get what the verse/Aya is because a true believer ALWAYS obeys Allah.  You will feel the connection with Allah and everything in His verses we are to understand that He allows will naturally come flowing to us on what the verse says….
Knowing what Allah says is one thing, acting by it is another. You are playing with fire if you keep on speaking lies about Allah’s words and using other verses from total different surat, verse, aya have nothing to do with the subject or commands Allah is speaking to us about and patching them together to have it make sense to what YOU are thinking so the subject in question makes more sense to you or others…  Some verses can do that, and some cannot and above what you listed clearly do not for so many reasons.  And yes, Arabic is how the Quran came down, how it can be understood, but it is for all humanity whether they speak Arabic or not, it all comes down to the guidance from Allah, that the person being able to understand what the Aya means and says, It comes down to guidance from above and what you are doing to be seek that guidance.. Studying, pondering, searching, and investing time by sincerely listening.
Now, I did something in here intentionally to see if you will see it.. If you do, reply.. if not, I do not need a reply on what I have said in general in the above because I formed my curiosity although I wanted you to clarify on how you get your info.
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: optimist on February 07, 2014, 04:17:59 PM
For example, here in India, as far as I have seen, when any animal like a bull, sheep or poultry nears its death especially due to some disease, and the keeper loses hope of its recovery, it is rushed to some Mullah, who slaauters it in the name of God. And everybody considers it allowed.

At the same time, everybody agrees that it doesn't taste good. Naturally, all the poison produced in its body by the disease will be there in its flesh.
Salam,

It is good to know you don't consider it as good.   However, this could be thousands of times better than slaughtering cats and eating!!

Anyhow, it shall be the responsibility of an Islamic state to bring subsidiary rules within the purview of what is "Tayib" to protect the health of the people.

Please respond to my previous post at your convenience if you think as appropriate (not necessary).

Regards
Optimist
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: optimist on February 07, 2014, 11:12:49 PM
Now, among Allah's myriad kinds of creatures - millions of them on this Earth, will you count as unwholesome all, other than the Baheemathul An'am of (5:1)?
Salaam!

1. Firstly man is essentially NOT a meat-eater.  In fact, there are millions of people who are  only vegetarian by choice

2. The point to be considered is  whether the number of permissible animals are able to meet the needs of man.

3. A similar counter question could be asked.  Why all animals out of millions of creatures on this Earth should be allowed except Swine? especially considering creatures like rats, even if permission is granted to eat, no one would be willing to slaughter rats and eat.  I think of a hadith now in which it states If a fly falls into the drinking water of any of you, let him dip all of it and then throw it away and use the water in the vessel and also an hadith about drinking cámel urine. 

Regards
Optimist
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Ismail on February 07, 2014, 11:58:15 PM
Salaam.

It is the responsibility of any State, for that matter, to bring legislation on matters of health.

Also, it is the individual's paramount responsibility to guard his health, keeping in mind, his individual, constitutional requirements.

You know Auto Urine Therapy?

I have witnessed a small girl having been cured of Leukemia (blood cancer), with the help of AUT.

And, Abbsrayray, I mentioned mercury poisoning of fish (well known to news readers), over and above your remark regarding poisonous creatures. Meaning, that I appreciated your warning regarding the hazards of trying to consume creatures of the sea, and just, humbly added one more point.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: AbbsRay on February 08, 2014, 02:11:21 AM
Salaam Ismail,

I doubt urine cured anyone, especially if it was any good for someone God would not command us to purify yourself in wadu, before prayer if we urinated.   If urine was the case to cure, worldwide people with all type of sickness and diseases would not be going to doctors for treatment or dying, one would just drink urine at home. Besides it is considered impure otherwise

Allah is the only one who cures.. Several examples are given in the Quran on Jesus doing and it was ONLY permissible by Allah who allowed it.

As for 5:1, the entire Quran is filled with what is permissible for animal to consume. Allah actually names these animals for you, Aya, that are full of examples, using clear words describing the Animal. A while ago when I started to look into the Quran to understand it, there was a article about this non Muslim who looked in the Quran mentioning how the Quran uses the following and gave examples on some verses, I started paying attention to verses to make a better conclusion on the verse and meanings, with of course the meaning given in the verse..

Alliteration, Analogy, Antiphrasis, Antithesis, Asyndeton, Assonance, Cadence, Chiasmus, Epizeuxis,

Equivoque, Homonymy, Hyperbole, Isocolon, Metaphor, Metonymy, Palindrome, Polyptoton, Rhetorical questions (MY FAVORITE, Allah uses this to have one think and ponder about the Question in the Aya)Synecdoche. That is why Allah says no one can ever produce a book like it and not even an Aya. He uses many different ways as a Figure of Speech throughout the Quran.
Thought is a power which arises in the individual mind. It is expressed through the medium of words, and it is through words that the idea of one person is communicated to another. The idea and the word are quite different from each other in both their nature and origin. The idea is a mental conception. The word is only what you hear, one automatically connects that to what they know of what that word means and have a mental picture of thought in their head, but in a mysterious way Allah is using in the Quran, it is harmonized with idea. In human life the beginning of the word is with the names of things. Allah taught Adam the names of all things (Qur’an 2:31). Conceptions are concealed in words, whether they are conceptions of things or those of feelings and emotions. Inverse 7:174, Allah uses the word cattle to describe human beings, are we going to go around eating humans because we are cattle as well? That is why I said He actually tells us what is allowed and what is not in the Quran, through examples, and stories of the past. In order to fully understand the verses in the Quran, it is not like how one would read a book. The Quran is the only book that has been EVER written they way it has, it tells one who the Author is alright.. lol

A literary approach to the Qur’an is necessary because the Qur’an is a work of literature; it has its own procedures and corresponding rules of interpretations. It will yield its meanings fully only if explored in terms of its kinds of writing.

You are sticking to the word Lawful and Unlawful verses. He is talking about cattle, the eight kinds He mentioned in other verses, Stop focusing on that, there are clue and hints from the creator what these animals are in the entire Quran. Wholesome foods in the “ardi” are about plants and fruits not a living thing as you think about animals. Unless you read the entire Quran and study it as I mean by saying reading, you are not going to understand the Quran. The description of everything in the regards to what can be consumed of His creatures is right in front of you. Do not stick with what the Quran tells you in a translation books, they are very misleading in many verses. If you do not speak or understand Arabic to read it in the context in original, there are ways you can still do this...
There are clues about everything in the Quran where Allah lists either a group of animals or by name and He still goes on repeating this. How you are taking 5:1 verse is extremely out of context. You see the Quran was not revealed in the order you are reading it today. Verse 5:1 was the 112 verse to the Quran. All other verses which if you read the entire Sura of Al-Mã’edah, there are SOOOO much repeated and reminders of what He already mentions thought the Quran. I, and when I say "I" view it this was when I am researching, studying the Quran. It might not be the case, but when I looked at the Aya's on how originally they were revealed before Allah put them in the order He wanted, it seems that way. Verse 9, is chapter Tubah, which is a whole chapter full of warnings, and last Sura is Chapter 110. It is About Allah Almighty as closing the end of the Revaluations. Look how He compiled Surat Al Fatiha, It only speaks about Him. Allah tells you how He created animals of all kinds and taught Adam their names... then He tells you what kind He is ONLY allowing you to slaughter, He also tells you what He created them for the purpose, to worship him and them having communities like us, He tells us not to transgress many times when it comes to what He is Allowing. A good sura for you would be to read sura AlBaqura. When Moses tells his people God wants them to sacrifice a cow... look at the story Allah tells us, using it as an example and HINT! All the words and example should be taking into consideration when trying to understand the meaning of certain words or verse. There are many English translations Quran and even on websites like Quran Corps who have some words completely wrong and nothing to do with what the meaning of the word is or what it addresses. For instance, they use "Man" " "men" in a description of a word God uses for both female and male audience, for all humans.... In English it might be that the word men/man can describe a wide variety of people, but in Arabic, it does not, there are verses in the Quran that God addresses females using their correct word/description same for men/man. So it misleads the reader in the English language (I do not know if they do this in other translations in other languages) and can mislead the reader on the entire verse.


A good example also is what Brother Deliverance put on a different thread, about verse 2:53/54. In all the translations in the English Quran and on the Quran Corps, they have kill yourself/yourselves. So that is why it is extremely important to study the Quran, word by word and look at the other verses. It is a book full of knowledge and so many things that is compiled for meanings on other verses. I only wrote all this to help you get an idea how to approach the Quran besides what Brother Joseph has on his site which is what this is in a way, I think. It certainly is not going to be over night Brother, it was 23 years for the Rasool to get all 114 chapters. Most importantly, DO NOT go on websites that say Quran ONLY that tell you the tafseer or opinion on what the words or verse means. If they have NO PROOF showing it to you, they are only justifying verses for themselves, have a HUGE EGO and THINK they know what it means, and so many other reasons. They have PhD behind their names and that is usually used to drive others in to believe what they are saying.

There is no difference if you have a PhD or not, it is do you understand what is in the Quran? Scholars who spent their whole life studying it in their Islamic schools still do not understand what Allah says about Hadith, Idolization, Hijab, Kimar, and they even call Muhammad Illiterate and not it was not him who wrote the Quran, yet they believe this and still put his name next to Allah in the Shahada? They do not think. be VERY WEARY of QURAN ONLY preachers, They left the Hadith and say how ridiculous it is and only need Quran, which is the way Allah tells us, but they create even worse things in their understanding of the Quran, so it is no difference because it is not what Allah is saying. I emailed a explanation to one site who I will not mention, about verse 4:34 on how they have it wrong about beating, which the guy does have a PhD, and he describes the verse, well God is not saying beat them, but that is the last resort so God is giving you other options first. I emailed the site and said no, you should correct it and showed them the proof of what BJ has explained and not because he explained it, rather Allah’s own words as he used. I got a reply back that no, it was the right meaning and I should accept it and not question it. To me that is a scary thing.. Do you think I would ever believe what they are explaining in their other verses? NO!  So STAY away from sites, and if you Google Quran ONLY sites it will give you a list I am talking about… They are the ones who provide no proof and a lot I noticed they get their explain nation from other sites. SCARY.. They list no proof but explanations of the verses and they list other verses that they are patching together to the verse in question to make the reader believe it makes sense that this verse, means this. It is a psychological illusion that makes others believe what they are putting down. I do not think they are doing it purposely, they are just way off in their beliefs or cannot handle what Allah is saying and want to tweak it to better fit their ideas, wants and needs.
There are many sites I have seen, articles I came across that was outrages on how they got their understanding on many things out of the Quran. Like Haijj is not an obligatory, Prayer as described in the Quran does not need to be done, but prayer in the mind, and so on. They are the hypocrites and the devil has got a hold of their minds thinking this way. It might make sense to some, but it is only going to make those people one of the losers following such sites and beliefs. So study the Quran with a fresh mind. Inshallah someone will write the Quran in English that has the correct meanings of the verses and give a description. I think I see how you get your thinking on lawful for animals, many sites who have Quran only are telling people this.. They are only leading you astray. They are MISGUIDED, What Allah says is one thing.. How the other person reads it is another... Hope this helps, I am really trying to show you how one is only able to understand what Allah is saying and how to approach reading and studying the Quran.  Ask Allah for guidance, He will if you are sincere...
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Joseph Islam on February 08, 2014, 03:57:16 AM
As-salam alaykum

Thank you all for your contributions on this thread.

As many of you will be aware, the Quran asks the People of the Book at the time of the Prophet's ministry to judge by their own books (5:43), inferring the laws within them. The Quran even goes as so far as calling them 'Kaffir' (disbelievers) if they fail to judge by what God has revealed to them (5:44).

Leviticus 11 states: (NIV)

11 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, 2 “Say to the Israelites: ‘Of all the animals that live on land, these are the ones you may eat: 3 You may eat any animal that has a divided hoof and that chews the cud.

Exceptions are further stated. This is also confirmed by Deuteronomy 14:4-8. Therefore, animals such as the goat, sheep, ox, deer and gazelle are thus lawful for the People of the Book as these animals chew the cud.

Therefore, the reason that 'grazing livestock' is explicitly mentioned in verses 5:1 and 40:79 of the Quran was not only to confirm the general category of animals that is made lawful for believers but also to remove the restrictions from believers that were imposed on the People of the Book by God from within the category of grazing animals. For example, within the category of grazing animals, extra restrictions had been placed on the People of the Book:

Leviticus 11:4 (NIV)
"'There are some that only chew the cud or only have a divided hoof, but you must not eat them. The camel, though it chews the cud, does not have a divided hoof; it is ceremonially unclean for you.

Leviticus 11:5 (NIV)
“The hyrax, though it chews the cud, does not have a divided hoof; it is unclean for you.”

Leviticus 11:6 (NIV)
“The rabbit, though it chews the cud, does not have a divided hoof; it is unclean for you.”

Leviticus 11:8 (NIV)
“You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you.”

Restrictions imposed on the People of the Book are also confirmed by the Quran.

006.146
"And to those who are Jews (who follow the Jewish Law), We forbade every (animal) with undivided hoof, and We forbade them that fat of the ox and the sheep, except what adheres to their backs or their entrails, or is joined with the bone. That is their recompense for their wilful disobedience. And indeed, We are lawful".

This is further confirmed in the following verse:

016.118
"And to those who are Jews, We prohibited such things as We have mentioned to you before. We did them no wrong, but they were used to doing wrong to themselves."

Furthermore, if it were just a case that such restrictions were placed exclusively on the Jews, then this argument is also unwarranted as swine is still prohibited to the believers. This infers a general prohibition against swine from grazing livestock and the extra prohibitions within the category of grazing livestock for the People of the Book was due to their transgressions. As believers are not responsible for the transgressions of another community, therefore those prohibitions have arguably been lifted.

This does not mean however that the Quran allows for the consumption of all animals. The focus and lawfulness still remains restricted to a particular category of animals. (i.e. grazing animals).

Similarly, where lawfulness in general of the catch of the sea is expressed (5:96), this removes some of the restrictions that were imposed on the People of the Book. (See Leviticus 11:9-10). Here again, the Quran clarifies for believers. Similarly, if the intention was to make all animals lawful, the Quran could have arguably given a similar explicit statement (such as the catch of the sea) to make lawful all land animals. It did not but once again, restricted it to a particular category (5:1, 40:79).


THEREFORE IN SUMMARY FROM MY HUMBLE PERSPECTIVE


Regards,
Joseph


RELATED ARTICLES

[1] FOOD & DRINK (Articles)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/food%20FM3.htm
[2] FOOD & DRINK (Q&As)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/q&as%20FM3.htm
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: optimist on February 08, 2014, 04:44:08 AM
It is the responsibility of any State, for that matter, to bring legislation on matters of health.
Salaam!

We are discussing the Quran and its laws and therefore it is sufficient to discuss about a state that implement Quranic Laws.

Quote
Also, it is the individual's paramount responsibility to guard his health, keeping in mind, his individual, constitutional requirements.

No doubt the first responsibility is on individuals.  (1) They should only eat permissible animals (2) They should only eat what is Tayyeb.  By using the term Tayyeb Allah has left to the individuals and the collective Muslim society to decide on what is Tayyeb.   I believe this term can cover many cases including slaughtering and eating animals having transmittable diseases (the state would be fully justified even to make a complete ban on slaughtering animals when there is fear of transmittable diseases).

Quote
You know Auto Urine Therapy?

Kindly explain what your point is.  Are you saying that, since there is auto urine therapy one is allowed to drink one's own urine? This is disgusting, and naturally speaking, urine is toxic stuff and the Quran places extreme importance on cleanliness and clean eating (Tayyab).  OR are you saying that one is allowed to drink urine as part of undergoing auto urine therapy?  You know, Alcohol is prohibited in the Quran, however, it goes on to state that in alcohol there are some benefits for the people, but the evil is greater than the benefit.  Anyhow, just one simple question:  Can you prove any disease which can be only cured through auto urine therapy? 

By the way, can you please respond to post no.112?

Regards,
Optimist
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: optimist on February 08, 2014, 04:46:39 AM
As-salam alaykum

Thank you all for your contributions on this thread.

As many of you will be aware, the Quran asks the People of the Book at the time of the Prophet's ministry to judge by their own books (5:43), inferring the laws within them. The Quran even goes as so far as calling them 'Kaffir' (disbelievers) if they fail to judge by what God has revealed to them (5:44).

Leviticus 11 states: (NIV)

11 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, 2 “Say to the Israelites: ‘Of all the animals that live on land, these are the ones you may eat: 3 You may eat any animal that has a divided hoof and that chews the cud.

Exceptions are further stated. This is also confirmed by Deuteronomy 14:4-8. Therefore, animals such as the goat, sheep, ox, deer and gazelle are thus lawful for the People of the Book as these animals chew the cud.

Therefore, the reason that 'grazing livestock' is explicitly mentioned in verses 5:1 and 40:79 of the Quran was not only to confirm the general category of animals that is made lawful for believers but also to remove the restrictions from believers that were imposed on the People of the Book by God from within the category of grazing animals. For example, within the category of grazing animals, extra restrictions had been placed on the People of the Book:

Leviticus 11:4 (NIV)
"'There are some that only chew the cud or only have a divided hoof, but you must not eat them. The camel, though it chews the cud, does not have a divided hoof; it is ceremonially unclean for you.

Leviticus 11:5 (NIV)
“The hyrax, though it chews the cud, does not have a divided hoof; it is unclean for you.”

Leviticus 11:6 (NIV)
“The rabbit, though it chews the cud, does not have a divided hoof; it is unclean for you.”

Leviticus 11:8 (NIV)
“You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you.”

Restrictions imposed on the People of the Book are also confirmed by the Quran.

006.146
"And to those who are Jews (who follow the Jewish Law), We forbade every (animal) with undivided hoof, and We forbade them that fat of the ox and the sheep, except what adheres to their backs or their entrails, or is joined with the bone. That is their recompense for their wilful disobedience. And indeed, We are lawful".

This is further confirmed in the following verse:

016.118
"And to those who are Jews, We prohibited such things as We have mentioned to you before. We did them no wrong, but they were used to doing wrong to themselves."

Furthermore, if it were just a case that such restrictions were placed exclusively on the Jews, then this argument is also unwarranted as swine is still prohibited to the believers. This infers a general prohibition against swine from grazing livestock and the extra prohibitions within the category of grazing livestock for the People of the Book was due to their transgressions. As believers are not responsible for the transgressions of another community, therefore those prohibitions have arguably been lifted.

This does not mean however that the Quran allows for the consumption of all animals. The focus and lawfulness still remains restricted to a particular category of animals. (i.e. grazing animals).

Similarly, where lawfulness in general of the catch of the sea is expressed (5:96), this removes some of the restrictions that were imposed on the People of the Book. (See Leviticus 11:9-10). Here again, the Quran clarifies for believers. Similarly, if the intention was to make all animals lawful, the Quran could have arguably given a similar explicit statement (such as the catch of the sea) to make lawful all land animals. It did not but once again, restricted it to a particular category (5:1, 40:79).


THEREFORE IN SUMMARY FROM MY HUMBLE PERSPECTIVE

  • Verses 5:1 and 40:79 explicitly confirm the particular category of animals which is made lawful for believers to consume as food (i.e. grazing livestock / animals). If all animals were to be made lawful, arguably there would be no need to explicitly state a specific category which was already known as a category of animal consumption. The Quran makes clear what is lawful and unlawful. In this case, it has explicitly stated lawfulness. The Quran is not averse from giving general approval as it has done for the catch of the sea (5:96). However, it has not done so for land animals thereby restricting the category by explicit mention (i.e. grazing animals / livestock).
  • The People of the Book never consumed animals that did not chew their cud.  Therefore, the Quran would be expected to clarify that all animals were now made lawful for consumption if this was the case, in stark contrast to what was known to previous Abraham faiths of which the Quran's message was a continuation. It did not make this clarification. This is no different from the extent that the Quran goes to clarify the general lawfulness within the category of grazing livestock.
  • Given the fact that only animals in a particular category are lawful for People of the Book, it would be inconceivable that by virtue of verse 5:5 of the Quran all animals were now lawful for them if one asserted that the Quran allows the consumption of all animals. "...and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them..." (5:5)
  • Verse such as 6:145 should be read in context of previous verses where the Quran is clarifying that there are no self-imposed restrictions within the category of livestock as have been mentioned in the previous verses 6:143-144. Verse 6:145 is not a cue to make lawful all animals, but a response to verses 6:143-144. This is also supported by verses 2:173, 16:115 and 5:3 where in the context of previous verses, the lawfulness is given within a particular category of food.
  • The only main counter argument is an argument from silence and reading of verses out of context. With respect, this is neither a cogent argument nor approach.

Regards,
Joseph


RELATED ARTICLES

[1] FOOD & DRINK (Articles)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/food%20FM3.htm
[2] FOOD & DRINK (Q&As)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/q&as%20FM3.htm
Wassalam,
Thank you brother Joseph Islam for this useful post.
Regards,
Optimist
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Ismail on February 08, 2014, 10:50:13 PM
Salaam.

All things that are khabees are forbidden to be eaten. It is the opposite of thayyib.

I pointed out AUT only to show, that the number of things used as medicine is mind-boggling.

Nobody (in the mainstream), especially a Mo'min, eats or drinks things that are khabees (unwholesome).

I only sited blood cancer as an example of an intractable disease, and the desperate methods adopted.

It is hoped that Allah will forgive the prescriber and the user.

I am not talking about a so called Islamic State.

Self improvement, and bidding good and forbidding evil is what is fundamental..

That is what leads (slowly but steadily), to a society which lives a thoroughly moral life, Umar, or no Umar.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: optimist on February 08, 2014, 11:15:25 PM
Nobody (in the mainstream), especially a Mo'min, eats or drinks things that are khabees (unwholesome).

Does anyone (muslims or others) eat Rats and consider its meat good to eat?  What makes you consider it thayyib?
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Saba on February 10, 2014, 12:04:11 AM
As-salam alaykum

Thank you all for your contributions on this thread.

As many of you will be aware, the Quran asks the People of the Book at the time of the Prophet's ministry to judge by their own books (5:43), inferring the laws within them. The Quran even goes as so far as calling them 'Kaffir' (disbelievers) if they fail to judge by what God has revealed to them (5:44).

Leviticus 11 states: (NIV)

11 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, 2 “Say to the Israelites: ‘Of all the animals that live on land, these are the ones you may eat: 3 You may eat any animal that has a divided hoof and that chews the cud.

Exceptions are further stated. This is also confirmed by Deuteronomy 14:4-8. Therefore, animals such as the goat, sheep, ox, deer and gazelle are thus lawful for the People of the Book as these animals chew the cud.

Therefore, the reason that 'grazing livestock' is explicitly mentioned in verses 5:1 and 40:79 of the Quran was not only to confirm the general category of animals that is made lawful for believers but also to remove the restrictions from believers that were imposed on the People of the Book by God from within the category of grazing animals. For example, within the category of grazing animals, extra restrictions had been placed on the People of the Book:

Leviticus 11:4 (NIV)
"'There are some that only chew the cud or only have a divided hoof, but you must not eat them. The camel, though it chews the cud, does not have a divided hoof; it is ceremonially unclean for you.

Leviticus 11:5 (NIV)
“The hyrax, though it chews the cud, does not have a divided hoof; it is unclean for you.”

Leviticus 11:6 (NIV)
“The rabbit, though it chews the cud, does not have a divided hoof; it is unclean for you.”

Leviticus 11:8 (NIV)
“You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you.”

Restrictions imposed on the People of the Book are also confirmed by the Quran.

006.146
"And to those who are Jews (who follow the Jewish Law), We forbade every (animal) with undivided hoof, and We forbade them that fat of the ox and the sheep, except what adheres to their backs or their entrails, or is joined with the bone. That is their recompense for their wilful disobedience. And indeed, We are lawful".

This is further confirmed in the following verse:

016.118
"And to those who are Jews, We prohibited such things as We have mentioned to you before. We did them no wrong, but they were used to doing wrong to themselves."

Furthermore, if it were just a case that such restrictions were placed exclusively on the Jews, then this argument is also unwarranted as swine is still prohibited to the believers. This infers a general prohibition against swine from grazing livestock and the extra prohibitions within the category of grazing livestock for the People of the Book was due to their transgressions. As believers are not responsible for the transgressions of another community, therefore those prohibitions have arguably been lifted.

This does not mean however that the Quran allows for the consumption of all animals. The focus and lawfulness still remains restricted to a particular category of animals. (i.e. grazing animals).

Similarly, where lawfulness in general of the catch of the sea is expressed (5:96), this removes some of the restrictions that were imposed on the People of the Book. (See Leviticus 11:9-10). Here again, the Quran clarifies for believers. Similarly, if the intention was to make all animals lawful, the Quran could have arguably given a similar explicit statement (such as the catch of the sea) to make lawful all land animals. It did not but once again, restricted it to a particular category (5:1, 40:79).


THEREFORE IN SUMMARY FROM MY HUMBLE PERSPECTIVE

  • Verses 5:1 and 40:79 explicitly confirm the particular category of animals which is made lawful for believers to consume as food (i.e. grazing livestock / animals). If all animals were to be made lawful, arguably there would be no need to explicitly state a specific category which was already known as a category of animal consumption. The Quran makes clear what is lawful and unlawful. In this case, it has explicitly stated lawfulness. The Quran is not averse from giving general approval as it has done for the catch of the sea (5:96). However, it has not done so for land animals thereby restricting the category by explicit mention (i.e. grazing animals / livestock).
  • The People of the Book never consumed animals that did not chew their cud.  Therefore, the Quran would be expected to clarify that all animals were now made lawful for consumption if this was the case, in stark contrast to what was known to previous Abraham faiths of which the Quran's message was a continuation. It did not make this clarification. This is no different from the extent that the Quran goes to clarify the general lawfulness within the category of grazing livestock.
  • Given the fact that only animals in a particular category are lawful for People of the Book, it would be inconceivable that by virtue of verse 5:5 of the Quran all animals were now lawful for them if one asserted that the Quran allows the consumption of all animals. "...and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them..." (5:5)
  • Verse such as 6:145 should be read in context of previous verses where the Quran is clarifying that there are no self-imposed restrictions within the category of livestock as have been mentioned in the previous verses 6:143-144. Verse 6:145 is not a cue to make lawful all animals, but a response to verses 6:143-144. This is also supported by verses 2:173, 16:115 and 5:3 where in the context of previous verses, the lawfulness is given within a particular category of food.
  • The only main counter argument is an argument from silence and reading of verses out of context. With respect, this is neither a cogent argument nor approach.

Regards,
Joseph


RELATED ARTICLES

[1] FOOD & DRINK (Articles)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/food%20FM3.htm
[2] FOOD & DRINK (Q&As)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/q&as%20FM3.htm

Salaams br. Joseph ... thank u so much for this and summary v. useful!!...Saba   :) ;D
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: QM Moderators Team on February 10, 2014, 12:05:58 AM
Can we please remind respected forum members to start a new thread if the topic is a little separate from the main purpose of the thread. Previous posts better dealt with as a new topic have been moved to a new thread below:

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1143.msg4985#msg4985

Thanks.
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Armanaziz on February 10, 2014, 05:08:27 PM

  • The only main counter argument is an argument from silence and reading of verses out of context. With respect, this is neither a cogent argument nor approach.

Regards,
Joseph



Dear Brother Joseph:

From your above quoted post it has seemed to me you that have somewhat inclined to engage with me on the topic based on logic and arguments, rather than brushing me aside as a personal attacker. So, I have decided to respond with one last post on the topic from my side as well. Since I raised the topic - I felt a proper closure from my side is also warranted. The readers of the forum knows your conclusions - so they should also note what my conclusions are and they for themselves evaluate and judge what makes more sense. Allah will guide whomever He wills to the straight route.

[Please note through-out this post I will use my personal translation of the verses of Qur'an. But please do cross check with other translations or even best - the original Arabic text. I also welcome any criticism of my translation.]



Firstly, let me clearly state in a nut-shell that I have not been convinced with the logic of BJ (and others supporting his view) - mainly because it seems to me that, with respect, BJ is somehow over-emphasizing an arguable deduction from one ayat (5:1) - to overrule clear guideline from at least 3 ayats at 3 different locations in the holy book [2:173-176; 6:145 and 16:115-116]. This is strictly a critique of the argument of BJ - not him as a person. If my tone and enthusiasm have seemed inappropriate before, I apologize for that - but unfortunately my core contention remains unchanged.



Secondly , let me very briefly reply the 2 most frequently asked questions to me:

1) Why does Allah categorically mention "Grazing Livestock" in 5:1?

Quote

5:1     O! Those who have believed – fulfill (the obligations) by your contracts. The animals of the (grazing) livestock, except what is recited on you, are legitimized for you - without legitimizing the hunting  while you are under prohibition. Indeed Allah judges however He intends.



I have actually discussed this in my very first post. Per my understanding what this ayat is saying ... even something as commonly understood as halal as Grazing Livestock will no longer remain halal if you engage in prohibited hunting. The clear example of grazing livestock is brought here to illustrate that even in "the most explicit permissions" there are implicit underlying conditions which need to be observed... in following the scripture, as well as in fulfilling contracts.

The "Grazing Livestock" has come in this ayat as an example only.... there are several categories of obviously halal animals/creatures - like poultry and fish - outside grazing livestock. So, from a strictly academic and linguistic point of view it is not a valid argument that this ayat restricts halal animals to grazing livestock.

The context of the ayat is in the ayat itself. Before accusing others of using ayats outside the context, let's make sure we do not fall in the trap ourselves.


2) Can you give one single ayat that says all other foods other that the stated restrictions are halal?

In sha Allah, I can - but, what is the point? If you have a pre-conceived prejudice that everything must be read in the context of what you believe - then even if I bring all the ayats of Qur'an you will not be convinced. Let me try anyway.

Quote
5:93   No offence on those who believe and act appropriately for what they eat whenever that they are conscious and they believe and they act appropriately, (and) later they are conscious and they believe, (and) later they are conscious and they be nice; and Allah loves the ones being nice.

I believe that this ayat reflects exactly the same sentiment that we find in Gospel (in the form we have today):

Quote
Mark 7:18 (NIV) "Are you so dull?" he [Jesus] asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'?
Mark 7:19 (NIV) "For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body."

The key takeaway is - the food habits of man does not make him pious or impious; righteous or wrongdoer. It is what he believes in the soul and what is reflected in his action that make him so.

The messengers and religious preachers throughout ages have emphasized moral and behavioral teaching. In addition as a matter of necessity they taught certain food manners consistent with their socio-cultural norms and practiced some themselves - but soon after their departure their followers have taken the food manners as the centerpiece of the religion and de-emphasized the moral teaching. And to justify their superiority they kept on inventing restrictions and attributing them to Allah - to create division and to spread hostility based on food prejudices towards alien cultures. Unfortunately, the same trend is seen among the followers of Qur'an as well.


My third business of the day is to refute a misconception. Somehow it has been floating around that I am saying eating lions, and dogs and rats, and wood and paper are acceptable. Absolutely NO. I have not said these, nor did I want to mean this. If it has seemed that I am saying these then that must be a limitation of my communication ability. Dogs and cats are men's household pets throughout the world. The people who eat dogs and cats probably do so only because they are disconnected from global food ettiquate of men. I have seen Koreans who once ate dogs, but now no longer does so because they have now come to the understanding that dogs are not edible.

Lions and tigers are wild animals. I am strictly against any kind of killing of wild animals by modern men except in situation where they somehow threat humans. The days of hunter-gatherer societies are gone. With all the intelligence and material achievements that Allah has given men it is time we focus on conservation of the bio-diversity. That is our appropriate course of action as Allah's representative on earth. Since it is not a feasible idea to raise tigers and lions as food in firms - they are not men's food items.

Horses and donkeys, yes I believe they are meant to be carriers NOT FOOD. And cockroaches, rats are PESTS - neither wholesome nor delicious. And wood and paper, come on... can we even imagine these as edible?

Allah has again and again and again encouraged us to eat lawful and wholesome/delicios (tayyibat) food - not only to believers, but to mankind in general. We must use our brain and eyes to decide what is wholesome / delicious food. On this point WE ALL SEEM TO AGREE. Our debate is whether Lions and dogs must also go through the same filter of common sense, or is there a prohibition against them in Qur'an. I believe the former is the case - these items are simply not food because our socio-cultural context don't accept them as delicious (Taiyyibat). Such items may be considered as allowable only in societies and cultures where such practices are still acceptable. But I wish soon they  will catch up with the rest of us.



Now, as the fourth and last item of my final post on this topic, I would like to present my understanding of food restictions based on Qur'an.

1. For mankind, in general, Allah's command is to eat whatever they can acquire lawfully and find delicious (based on their own tase, judgement and morality). This command has clearly come in Surah bakarah.

Quote
2:168   O! Mankind - Eat from whatever in the earth is lawful, delicious  and don’t follow the footsteps of the devil. Indeed he is an obvious  enemy to you.

2:169   He only commands you to wickedness and immorality and that you say upon Allah what you don’t know.

2. Soon afterwards, for believers Allah has mandated 4 additional restrictions - to establish their separate identity as believers. These 4 restictions are - (i) the dead, (ii) the blood (poured out), (iii) the flesh of swine, and (iv)any food dedicated to other than Allah. A true believer - as an attestation to his faith in Qur'an - must not violate these restrictions nor should they add any restrictions to these to attribute on Allah.

Quote
2:172   O! Those who have believed - eat from the delicious things that We provided you and appreciate Allah if He is the One you are slave to.

2:173   He has only prohibited for you the dead, the blood and the flesh of swine, and what has been initiated  with it - for other than Allah. Then whoever is compelled - neither coveting  nor recurring  - then no sin on him. Indeed Allah is Forgiving, Kind.

2:174   Indeed, those who conceal what Allah has sent down of the book and exchange it for a small price, they are the ones who don’t eat in their inside  but fire and neither will Allah speak to them on the day of resurrection nor will He purify them, and for them - a painful suffering.

2:175   They are the ones - who exchange deviation from guidance and suffering for forgiveness – then what is their endurance on the fire?

2:176   That is because Allah has sent down the book with the truth. And indeed those who differed with the book are surely in wide schism.

The later ayats above (2:174-176) emphasizes the importance of taking Allah's instructions in face value and overrules inventing any additional confusion in the name of Allah in extremely initimidating words! There is a clear indication that any additional effort to promote "invented" restrictions in name of Allah would result in Scism. Also note how clearly the warning identifies the wrongdoing people as the ones exchanging suffering (as in 2:174) for forgiveness (as in 2:173).

When we start to take men's judgement and deductions and start promoting them as God's rule we start to create all these groups and sub-groups; sects and sub-sects. So much debate on whether horse, or insect, or rabit, or ostritch, or shark, or deer is halal - we will keep on debating until we surrender to the exact words of Allah and take them as enough! Let's avoid what Allah says haram - and for evertything else let's use our brain. Such a simple solution! If we keep on duducting this and that as halal and haram - never will we agree and never will find true peace.

[Those of you who want to read these verses "in the context" of your arguable deductions from 5:1, could you please help me understand why Allah has totally seggeregated these verses from Sura 5 and put them in an earlier Sura?]

3. "The food of the people of book are legitimate for us, and our foods are legitimate for them" - this, by no way implies that Jewish food restrictions (in part or whole) are still applicable for us. This is again another creative deduction. Qur'an clearly says that Jewish food restrictions were merely a punishment for their envy. Furthermore, the following verse mandates that - for any food to be prohibited by Allah there needs to be explicit prohibition in the scripture - otherwise judgement of which food is delicious is left to men -

Quote

3:93   All foods happened to be allowed for the children of Israel except which Israel made prohibited upon his soul from before that Torah was sent down. Say, “So bring the Torah and recite it if you happen to be sincere.”


4. Allah discusses the food restrictions in details in Sura 5 (al-Maidah) and 6 (al-An'am). The overall theme of these suras regarding food-restrictions is that the contemporaries of the messenger were inventing various food restrictions by themselves and attributing them to Allah. Allah clearly denounces and rejects any such innovations. In my earlier posts I have disucssed there are additional restrictions on how animals should be killed for food in 5:3, but strictly from the eater's perspective the 4 restrictions have been reiterated once again. The verse 6:145 - carries the final verdict on this topic in as general and unequivocal wording as possible.

Quote

6:145   Say, “I do not find in what has been inspired to me anything prohibited to an eater who eats – except – that it happens to be dead, or poured-out blood or flesh of swine; then indeed it is pollution or willful disobedience originating for other than Allah with it.” Then whoever is compelled - neither coveting nor recurring; then indeed your Master is Relenting, Kind.


Now I have seen there is a strong "tendency" in reading the above verse "only" in the context of preceeding verses where some innovations relating to grazing livestocks are discussed. Let me ask you this hypothetical question - In my annual office party my colleages offers me wine. I refuse and say, "I never drink any kind of alcoholic drink." The next day, my colleage sees me drinking whisky at a pub. Shouldn't he be surprised? If I say, my comment about not drinking alcoholic drink was made only in the context of office party and wine - would that be a satisfactory explanation? NO, it won't be. Because though I made the comment in a given context - the WORDING of my statement was GENERAL, so my colleague has every right to take the statement at its face value as a general statement applicable in all context. Similarly the above verse (6:145) carries a statement with GENERAL WORDING and hence its scope supercedes any given context. This is one verse that nullifies every Islamic secondary source that innovate false hadises attributing to our Messenger saying he prohibited this and that in addition to what Qur'an says.

Unless of course, you believe Allah is a little bit casual in his word choice - He really doesn't mean what he says etc. My kid sees a big elephant and says, "Wow! This is the biggest thing I have ever seen." - We all know he means this is the biggest "animal" that he has seen because surely he has seen the sun and the moon - which are much bigger. So, just like the statement of my kid which we have to understand (with a little bit of sympathy for his immaturity) within the given context - we have to understannd the verses of Allah with a little bit of grain of salt. Nauzubillah. Sorry, my friends - I cannot support such a point of view. If Qur'an is the verses from the Master of the Universe, which I know it is - We MUST take His general statements at face value - not cast doubt over them assuming they are meant to be understood in a restricted context. His words are final and precise and there is no doubt in it.

5. Finally let's come to Sura 16 (Surah al-Nahl), After a fair bit of gap Allah raises the issue of food restriction for one more time and gives us his clear words -

Quote

16:114 So eat of what Allah has provided you - legitimate, delicious - and appreciate the blessings of Allah if He is the one you are slave to.

16:115 He has only prohibited for you the dead, the blood and the flesh of swine, and what has been initiated for other than Allah - with it. Then whoever is compelled - neither coveting  nor recurring  - then  indeed Allah is Forgiving, Kind.

16:116 And do not say that for which your tounges attributes the lie - "This is legitimate and this is prohibited." So that you invent about Allah the lie. Indeed those who invent about Allah the lie, will not succeed.


Now, after receiving such crystal clear instructions from my Master, how can I attribute any additional restrictions in name of Allah which is not clearly declared as "haram" in Qur'an. I will promote a lot of things as not delicious [Tayyibat] and hence not permisible - but clarify that it is my own judgement and Qur'an mandates application of sound judgement. But, The restrictions from Allah are those declared by Allah clearly and consistently in Qur'an. Nothing more, nothing less.

If you still deny my friends - I have no choice but to resort to 6:147.

Quote

6:147   Then if they deny you then say, “Your Master is vastly full of mercy but His pressure will not turn away from a criminal people.”



There are numerous "Quran only / God only" forums in the internet. My evaluation is that all of them that I found - reject the "innovations" brought by the so-called "traditional scholars", but in turn brings new prejudices, innovations themselves. Apparently Brother Joseph and you people on this forum seemed to be such an exception! But, if you prove me wrong, then my time and effort is better spent in personal study of the words of my Master.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.


Best regards,
Arman

Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Deliverance on February 12, 2014, 03:27:20 AM
Salam,

Can someone clarifie and give a proper translation about the vers 3 in Sura 5 after counting what is unlawful then comes a place where it is talked about an exeption and at this point the different translations make the following lawful too and others do not make it clear whats haram/halal.   

Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: optimist on February 27, 2014, 09:40:01 PM
I have actually discussed this in my very first post. Per my understanding what this ayat is saying ... even something as commonly understood as halal as Grazing Livestock will no longer remain halal if you engage in prohibited hunting. The clear example of grazing livestock is brought here to illustrate that even in "the most explicit permissions" there are implicit underlying conditions which need to be observed... in following the scripture, as well as in fulfilling contracts.

The "Grazing Livestock" has come in this ayat as an example only.... there are several categories of obviously halal animals/creatures - like poultry and fish - outside grazing livestock. So, from a strictly academic and linguistic point of view it is not a valid argument that this ayat restricts halal animals to grazing livestock.
Salaam,

Sorry to bring up this topic again.  I have started to analyse the issue in a different perspective.

Firstly, your explanation for the context of the verse is not really convincing.   
I have started to understand that it need not necessarily "grazing animals" as such which is the point of discussion in the verse.  I noticed the following explanation given by "Beheema" by G.A.Parwez.

Beh, heh, miim
Al-bohma: solid rock   
Al-abhamo: solid and composite thing: dumb: ambiguous: without flow:
Bohma: difficult matter to understand:
Abhamal amro ibhama: the matter became ambiguous and it was beyond comprehension as how to solve it:
Hai tun mubhamun: means a wall which has no opening or door: Ibn Faris says that its basic meaning is for something to become such that no way towards it is perceived: or to become indistinct and ambiguous.
With reference to dumbness, baha-im (singular is al baheema) means all animals who cannot speak  or their voices are ambiguous and they cannot be understood: all animals including   aquatic animals are included in this: but the Muheet's compiler and Raghib both maintain that wild carnivores and birds are not included in this.

Therefore, baheemathul anhaam actually does not refer to grazing animals as such, but includes all animals who cannot speak or their voices are ambiguous, however,  eating animals like DOGS, CATS, RATS and wild carnivores, etc are prohibited because there is clear instruction in the Quran in verse 30:30 to FOLLOW THE NATURE MADE BY GOD, THE NATURE ACCORDING TO WHICH HE HAS FASHIONED MANKIND.   The term nature "Fitrah" here means an inborn natural predisposition which cannot change, and which exists at birth in all human beings.   It is against natural predisposition to eat Rats and Dogs and wild carnivores.  It is not required to give any specific instruction not to eat rats and dogs, because the instruction is there already when Quran states you adhere to the firtah in which Allah created human being.  To state another instance, we humans do not eat or drink like cats and dogs and it would be foolishness to look for any express prohibition in the Quran against this. 

I have just started to think about the issue in a different way.  May Allah forgive me if I am making any error.  My only intention is to evaluate this reasoning if anyone can bring up strong objection.

And finally, to say that Quran permits eating creatures like rats and if anyone prefers to eat rats he has to slaughter it mentioning Allah's name and to be dedicated to Allah alone is a Monstrous crazy analysis. 

Regards,
Optimist
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: AbbsRay on February 28, 2014, 12:40:26 AM
Salaam Ismail,

I really think you need to study the entire Quran, which will help you. It ties up all the verses together in a way on the message Allah is telling us.
the "grazing animals" He is pacifically telling you what kinds are allowed. I know some people think Deer is one of them, as I do not think that. Allah actually mentioned the 4 kinds and mentions them by name, and it turns to eight when He says two of each meaning female and male.
As for the Deer, you can not catch a Deer without shooting it and or killing it with an arrow. When clearly Allah is telling us how one must slaughter it. That is my opinion as I still need to ponder more on the verses again as I lost all the research I was putting together on this on my other laptop. L

As for the sea creatures, although it is not in the dictionaries correctly, "seyud" which means “gaming fish“. As in fishing  “FISH” You can not fish a shark, dolphin, ect.  The exotic fish, or certain fish that carry poison in them are at the very bottom of the Sea and you are not going to be fishing it out unless you dive down there and get it that way.

Most Arabic speaking people know what Allah is referring to as fish.
For instance, Muslims never ate crab before, some do now because the scholar told them everything is permissible. How do crabs get killed so it can be consumed? They boil it inn steaming hot water alive!! God created that creature as He created us, I have NO DOUBT He is not allowing such horrific practice. There is no other way I believe that because a crab lives in water and on land for days and can survive either way. Now this is still my opinion, and I need to redo my research. I do believe without doubt that the Quran is complete, clear and detailed as we are told from Allah, Himself. So I have no doubt since what I mentioned above, is all in the Quran somewhere, but we are not understanding it or have not found it yet. I do also believe that Allah created His creatures for certain reasons and to live like us and have communities and He is only allowing us to only consume certain ones He tells us as a favor from Him, no more no less and not to transgress.
Again, it does not mean because Allah said do not eat dogs, cats, rats, squirrels that it is permissible. Some Muslims use “lard for an example, and other parts of the pig that is not considered meat to them, as permissible to consume or have in their foods. It shocks me because what part of Swine does Allah need to make clear. Not is He only telling us not to eat it, if He says that than no one should be killing it, therefore how can anything come out of it?

InshaAllah when I get time I will work more on the permissible food thing to make it more clearer to you. The above is based on my opinion and views as I am thankful I do not consume any animal flesh nor byproducts’ as my choice.

Salaam
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Saba on February 28, 2014, 04:27:57 AM
Salaam...

I know this is gruesome (warning link) - but I cannot see how any of Allah's scriptures ever approved eating of all animals whether 'implied' or 'expressed' ...!!!!!!!!!!!


Is this the world's most gruesome food market? Dogs, rats, bats and monkeys among the animals roasted WHOLE in Indonesia

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2569111/Held-tiny-cages-animals-await-fate-alongside-remains-dogs-rats-monkeys-creatures-flame-roasted-WHOLE-Indonesian-market.html
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Armanaziz on February 28, 2014, 10:01:19 AM
Salamun Alaikum.

Most of us who try to find the true message of Qur'an tend to agree that veiling the head and face of women is not a "mandatory" requirement in Qur'an. Now think of a respectful old lady who has spent her entire life behind the veil to please Allah believing that is what Allah wants from her. When she would be presented with the conclusion that face/head veiling is not mandatory - she will find this a "Monstrous Crazy" analysis which is bound to destroy the very fabric of our society  - because after spending a lifetime within a certain prejudice her ability of looking objectively beyond her deeply held conviction would be shaken. So, even when she is presented with clear verses from Qur'an she will see in the verse only what she wants to see OR has been taught to see.

When it comes to dietary laws - almost all of us are in a position similar to that of the respected old lady. Our prejudices on this matter are so deep that we comfortably overrule crystal clear verses (like 6:145) and ironically insist to call ourselves "Quran-centric" etc.

There are communities in this world who eat dogs, there are others who eat horses. Sharks and frogs are part of regular diet for billions of people in China and Japan. In the large forest areas there are tribal people who live on all sorts of wild animals. We have become so blind-sighted in our prejudices that we believe these people are acting beyond their human nature - in other words we consider them sub-human - Allah does not bless them, nor their food - as if they are surviving for generations based on mercy of devil! This is a sorry pathetic state of our community.  :(

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,

Arman
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Saba on February 28, 2014, 11:17:57 AM
Salaam Armanaziz. Or may be it is you that does not accept crystal clear verses like 5.1 that makes it clear what we are allowed to eat......have you heard the phrase pot calling the kettle black? Lets not go over this again......it's really getting boring now!!!!!!
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: AbbsRay on February 28, 2014, 12:29:13 PM
Salaam Arman,

I can not believe you are comparing a head covering to taking an animals life that Allah created. HUGE difference... Brother if you are on this subject to get anyone's approval that it is okay, I do ot thing anyone is going to give you that unless they are just not getting what Allah is saying.. Animals were created right after Prophet Adam and if you really think the reason for their creation was for us to have an open access to slaughter and consume them, than you better really ask Allah for guidance to have you see His verses more clearer. He is ONLY doing humans a favor and one should be thankful that He even Allowed it in the first place.


Salaam
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Deliverance on February 28, 2014, 04:51:44 PM
Salam,

Brother Joseph should add to rules of the Forum"...please do not take verses of the Quran in Isolation to build up an opinion..."
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: optimist on March 01, 2014, 12:21:23 AM
There are communities in this world who eat dogs, there are others who eat horses. Sharks and frogs are part of regular diet for billions of people in China and Japan. In the large forest areas there are tribal people who live on all sorts of wild animals. We have become so blind-sighted in our prejudices that we believe these people are acting beyond their human nature - in other words we consider them sub-human - Allah does not bless them, nor their food - as if they are surviving for generations based on mercy of devil! This is a sorry pathetic state of our community. 
Salaam!

Kindly update us if you have any information whether in any remote jungles tribal people eat rats and cats.  This is just to check if you have a practical confirmation for something you consider as Islamic.  What is actually pathetic is to bring up those strange examples to confirm something Islamic.  These examples are only fit for a tv shows like BELIEVE IT OR NOT. 

Quote
We have become so blind-sighted in our prejudices that we believe these people are acting beyond their human nature


They definitely go against instruction  in the Quran to adhere to the Fitrah in which God has created human being.   One does not need good logic to understand this point brother Arman.  Forget about rats and cats, this irrespective of any culture and nations, all people will start vomiting if they see a dish prepared from the meat of rats and cats on the table, the Quran does confirm the Fitrah (natural predisposition that exists at birth in all human beings) when it states in 6.142  "Of the Anaam are some for burden and some for meat".  Furthermore, verse 16.8 "And (He has created) horses, mules, and donkeys, for you to ride and use for show.  It is clear these animals are not meat for food.  Even people who do not have a divine guidance don't eat their meat which further confirms فِطْرَتَ اللَّهِ الَّتِي فَطَرَ النَّاسَ عَلَيْهَا

Regards
Optimist
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: optimist on March 01, 2014, 12:37:16 AM
AND SO, set thy face steadfastly towards the [one ever-true] faith, turning away from all that is false, in accordance with the natural disposition which God has instilled into man: [for] not to allow any change to corrupt what God has thus created – this is the [purpose of the one] ever-true faith; but most people know it not.)30:30 (Mohamed Asad translation)
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Duster on March 01, 2014, 08:20:32 PM
THEREFORE IN SUMMARY FROM MY HUMBLE PERSPECTIVE

  • Verses 5:1 and 40:79 explicitly confirm the particular category of animals which is made lawful for believers to consume as food (i.e. grazing livestock / animals). If all animals were to be made lawful, arguably there would be no need to explicitly state a specific category which was already known as a category of animal consumption. The Quran makes clear what is lawful and unlawful. In this case, it has explicitly stated lawfulness. The Quran is not averse from giving general approval as it has done for the catch of the sea (5:96). However, it has not done so for land animals thereby restricting the category by explicit mention (i.e. grazing animals / livestock).
  • The People of the Book never consumed animals that did not chew their cud.  Therefore, the Quran would be expected to clarify that all animals were now made lawful for consumption if this was the case, in stark contrast to what was known to previous Abraham faiths of which the Quran's message was a continuation. It did not make this clarification. This is no different from the extent that the Quran goes to clarify the general lawfulness within the category of grazing livestock.
  • Given the fact that only animals in a particular category are lawful for People of the Book, it would be inconceivable that by virtue of verse 5:5 of the Quran all animals were now lawful for them if one asserted that the Quran allows the consumption of all animals. "...and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them..." (5:5)
  • Verse such as 6:145 should be read in context of previous verses where the Quran is clarifying that there are no self-imposed restrictions within the category of livestock as have been mentioned in the previous verses 6:143-144. Verse 6:145 is not a cue to make lawful all animals, but a response to verses 6:143-144. This is also supported by verses 2:173, 16:115 and 5:3 where in the context of previous verses, the lawfulness is given within a particular category of food.
  • The only main counter argument is an argument from silence and reading of verses out of context. With respect, this is neither a cogent argument nor approach.

Regards,
Joseph



Slalom/peace 》 This is strong enough evidence for me.
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Armanaziz on March 03, 2014, 09:35:07 AM
Salamun Alaikum.

Repeat your arguments and fancies as many time you like... make new rules, give new fatwas, start a new sect if that's what you want... but for me the words of my Master will remain adequate. In sha Allah I will eat from the delicious foods Our Master has provided us and will appreciate His blessings as long as I can - because He is the One I am slave to. You can bully me but you cannot change the words of my Master.

Quote

Surah Al-An-am (Grazing Livestock); Verses 145-147

6:145   Say, “I do not find in what has been inspired to me anything prohibited to an eater who eats – except – that it happens to be dead, or poured-out blood or flesh of swine; then indeed it is pollution or willful disobedience originating for other than Allah with it.” Then whoever is compelled - neither coveting nor recurring; then indeed your Master is Relenting, Kind.

6:146   And upon those who are Yahudi We prohibited every (creature) with claws; and of the cows and the sheep We prohibited upon them their fat/lipid  except what carried their backs or their entrails or whatever is joined with the bones – that is their repayment for their envious acts. And indeed We surely are sincere.

6:147   Then if they deny you then say, “Your Master is vastly full of mercy but His pressure will not turn away from a criminal people.”


[Please cross check translation. Emphasis added.]

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Till our paths meet again ... Fee Amanillah.

Arman
Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Saba on March 03, 2014, 09:53:36 AM
Repeat your arguments and fancies as many time you like... make new rules, give new fatwas, start a new sect if that's what you want

Salaam - Pot calls the kettle black again br ArmanAziz???

Verse 5-1

O ye who believe! Fulfil your indentures. The beast of cattle is made lawful unto you (for food)

You can do what you like, but as has been shown so many times to you.... you have no proof - just verses out of context!!!!   Saba




Title: Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
Post by: Joseph Islam on March 03, 2014, 10:08:52 AM
Dear respected readers,

As-salam alaykum

Thank you to all those that have contributed to this thread. I feel that as all contributors have had an ample opportunity to share their perspectives, this is now an appropriate opportunity to close this thread.

I look forward to your shared perspectives as contributions on other and new topics on this forum, God willing.

With warm regards,
Joseph