QM Forum
The Quran => General Discussions => Topic started by: Nura on January 30, 2014, 06:40:52 AM
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Salam All,
I have been pondering about the verses telling us not to eat food dedicated to other than Allah, and I have come up with a few questions that I wish to ask you all.
The verse is as follows:
006.145
“Say: I do not find in what has been revealed to me anything forbidden to an eater to eat of except that it be what has died of itself, or blood poured forth, or flesh of swine - for indeed, that surely is impure - or that which is a transgression, is dedicated to other than God. But whoever is driven to necessity, not desiring nor transgressing the limit, then surely your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.”
1. Are only animals dedicated to other deities haram for consumption? the context of the verse in question is livestock, so is this statement only about livestock?
2. During their respective religious celebrations, our friends from other religions (Hindu, etc) dedicate different food to their deities, can we consume these food? the food they dedicate is not necessarily an animal, most of my Hindu friends dedicate vegetarian food to their Gods, can I then eat those food when they offer them to me? or all kinds of food irrespective of vegetarian, non vegetarian is forbidden for consumption if dedicated to other than Allah?
3. Some people say that we can consume food dedicated to other than Allah if we say 'Bismillah' before consuming it. But logically I find it unacceptable because then why can't we also consume animals dedicated to no one before slaughtering and just say 'Bismillah' before eating it? If, intention is all that matters, then all haram food( vegetarian and non-vegtarian) can be turned to halal food simply by saying ' Bismillah' before consuming it.
4. Also in India, Hindu farmers offer a prayer to their respective deities before planting seeds and also dedicate the harvest to their Gods and Godesses. Can muslims in India consume these food?
I personally think the verse is talking specifically about animals only and is not applicable to non-vegetarian food.
P.S. I would like to mention one thing that I consider food prepared by Jews and Christians permissible as long as they make it following their specific religious guidelines. I do this because I believe the Quran considers food of the people of the book lawful as technically they worship the same God as muslims. Thus, their food becomes automatically dedicated to Allah. So, food of the Christians and Jews for me is not food dedicated to other than Allah.
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Greetings Nura.
This is my opinion.
God Almighty has specified a very important criteria for His true believers, MENTION GOD"S NAME on everything you are going to eat. See 5:4, & 6:118-119,
[Quran 6:118] You shall eat from that upon which God's name has been pronounced, if you truly believe in His revelations.
[Quran 6:119] Why should you not eat from that upon which God's name has been mentioned? He has detailed for you what is prohibited for you, unless you are forced. Indeed, many people mislead others with their personal opinions, without knowledge. Your Lord is fully aware of the transgressors.
God in these verses puts the responsibility, as usual, on the individual. It is you, I and everyone's responsibility to mention God's name on everything we eat. Notice here that God says "EAT" and not "SLAUGHTER" when it comes to mentioning His name. God knows that one day these slaughter houses will be run by machines and computers. He assigned the responsibility to every true Muslim to mention His name on his /her food. We can have machines say Azan and read Basmallah and mention God's name on everything, but this would not take away the responsibility of every individual to remember God and mention His name when it is time to eat. Individuals who work in the slaughter house can be idol-worshipers or aetheist while claiming to be Muslims, Jews or Christians . That is why it is your responsibility to mention God's name before eating. In brief, the slaughter houses/others do not make the meat halal or haram but YOU do.
God did not make distinction between the meat prepared by a Muslim, a Christian, or a Jew, all are lawful to the same degree, all are HALAL. All should be eaten after God's name is pronounced on it before you eat it. Making it difficult for yourself, reflects a misunderstanding of or disbelief in God's book and His permission for us to eat the food of the Christians and Jews. Those who believe God in the Quran accept His permission to eat the food of the people of the scriptures and enjoy it and appreciate the mercy of the Most Merciful.
It does not matter what was said or done with food,before we eat , we are responsible to mention GOD s name and thank him for His provisions ,as simple as that in my opinion.
GOD bless.
Peace to you..
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Salam Good Logic,
Thank You for replying. Yes your approach does make things much simpler. I absolutely agree with you when you say that religion is not something that is difficult to practice. You said that, muslims and people from people of the book alike can claim to be believers and can in fact not be believers, and they can slaughter our meat for us, there is no way to get into a person's head and see whether a person believes or not. very true indeed. So, you are saying that it is ok to say 'Bismillah' before we eat any food(both vegetarian and non-vegetarian) and this will make the food halal, right?
Do you then believe that saying 'bismillah' before slaughtering an animal is not an absolute necessity?
Also, I have a question for you, the verses you Quoate are form the sura 6, which is titled' livestock', so do you think my understanding that the verses refer to animals only, not vegetarian food makes sense? as in Allah is asking us not to eat only animals that are sacrificed in the name of others?
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Greetings Nura.
Yes indeed,
God very clearly mentioned in the Quran what is prohibited from the food and meat. See 2:173, 5:3, 6:145 and 16:115. From these verses you can know what is Halal (lawful) meat and what is haram (prohibited).
[Quran 2:173] He only prohibits for you the eating of animals that die of themselves (without human interference), blood, the meat of pigs, and animals dedicated to other than God. If one is forced (to eat these), without being malicious or deliberate, he incurs no sin. God is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
In this verse ,you are right, GOD talks only about " meats".
If you are a "do it yourself" saying "bismillah before slaughtering and before eating are both fine as far as I know.
However,It must become a habit to remember the "Provider" of all our food, both Animal and vegetables or any other edible food before we eat ,we say " Bismillah"..
Again check all information as per {17:36}.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Dear Brothers:
Salamun Alaikum.
I believe and support the conclusions that you have reached. Like you I am also convinced that remembering Allah's name at the time of slaughter is not an absolute necessity. The responsibility of remembering the name is upon the person who is eating. I also believe we should try to avoid eating any kind of food (animal or vegetarian) that has been dedicated to anyone other than Allah/God. But if we do so unknowingly, unintentionally or under compulsive situations remembering Allah over it - our Master is Forgiving and Kind.
The reason why I jumped to reply on this chain is to highlight another point. Please let's not make the pronouncement of the exact words "Bismillah" as a mandatory requirement. Certainly if we make a habit of saying Bismillah that helps - but, Allah asks us to remember Him over the food and appreciate Him. So, irrespective of whether we pronounce Bismillah or Alhamdulillah or just silently appreciate Him - all suffices the purpose. Here our intension matters, the exact words don't.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman
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As-salam alaykum
As I am sure many will appreciate, it is not what appears easy for us in our understanding which determines whether a practice is compliant with our religion, but rather, what God expects from us.
In my humble yet strong opinion, God has prescribed a certain lawful manner of killing an animal for consumption (thakaytum) for believers which includes 'thiba' (slaughter). [1], [2]
A similar manner of killing an animal for consumption was also prescribed on the followers of previous scriptures. [3]
Furthermore in my humble opinion, God's name must be pronounced before the animal is slaughtered for food. [1]
Kind regards,
Joseph
REFERENCES
[1] SLAUGHTERING OF ANIMALS - THE CORRECT METHOD OF SACRIFICE
http://quransmessage.com/articles/slaughtering%20of%20animals%20-%20the%20correct%20method%20of%20sacrifice%20FM3.htm
[2] THAKAYTUM
http://quransmessage.com/articles/thakaytum%20FM3.htm
[3] IS KOSHER MEAT PERMISSIBLE FOR CONSUMPTION?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/kosher%20FM3.htm
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As-salam alaykum
As I am sure many will appreciate, it is not what appears easy for us in our understanding which determines whether a practice is compliant with our religion, but rather, what God expects from us.
In my humble yet strong opinion, God has prescribed a certain lawful manner of killing an animal for consumption (thakaytum) for believers which includes 'thiba' (slaughter). [1], [2]
A similar manner of killing an animal for consumption was also prescribed on the followers of previous scriptures. [3]
Furthermore in my humble opinion, God's name must be pronounced before the animal is slaughtered for food. [1]
Kind regards,
Joseph
REFERENCES
[1] SLAUGHTERING OF ANIMALS - THE CORRECT METHOD OF SACRIFICE
http://quransmessage.com/articles/slaughtering%20of%20animals%20-%20the%20correct%20method%20of%20sacrifice%20FM3.htm
[2] THAKAYTUM
http://quransmessage.com/articles/thakaytum%20FM3.htm
[3] IS KOSHER MEAT PERMISSIBLE FOR CONSUMPTION?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/kosher%20FM3.htm
Dear Brother Joseph:
Thank you very much from the added information. Of course God has prescribed a certain lawful manner of killing an animal for consumption which includes proper slaughter (as in 5:3) - I agree with you whole heartedly. However, the process described in 22:36 which includes pronouncing the name of Allah at the time of slaughter - is, per my understanding only binding on us when we are involved in the process of slaughter. I could not find any wording in or around 22:36 that would convince me that any meat we eat must go through this exact process. If I am missing anything here, I would be ever grateful if you kindly help identify the wording that indicates that.
Best regards,
Arman
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As-salam alaykum brother Armanaziz,
When a particular method of slaughter has been made lawful which you agree includes pronouncing God's name at the time of slaughter, then I would humbly find it inconceivable that a believer would be expected to eat food which is not prepared in accordance to the Quran's directions. Just because one is not present to perform a slaughter does not mean that they can eat other animals that have not been slaughtered in a lawful (halal) manner.
In my humble opinion, such a suggestion would render superfluous the commandment to pronounce the name of God on an animal in the first place, if in other instances, it were permissible for believers to eat food without the need for God's name being pronounced.
Furthermore, verse 5:3 makes it clear to all believers that animals are forbidden unless they are prepared in a well-known manner (thakaytum). This always includes the need to pronounce God's name. Verse 5:4 further confirms this directive.
005.004
“They ask you what is lawful to them Say: lawful to you are (all) things good and pure: and what you have taught your trained hunting dogs in the manner directed to you by God: eat what they catch for you, but pronounce the name of God over it: and fear God; for God is swift in taking account”
I hope that helps, God willing,
Joseph
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Greetings brothers and sisters.
{22:36}:
The animal offerings are among the rites decreed by God for your own good.* You shall mention God's name on them while they are standing in line. Once they are offered for sacrifice, you shall eat therefrom and feed the poor and the needy. This is why we subdued them for you, that you may show your appreciation
وَالبُدنَ جَعَلنٰها لَكُم مِن شَعٰئِرِ اللَّهِ لَكُم فيها خَيرٌ فَاذكُرُوا اسمَ اللَّهِ عَلَيها صَوافَّ فَإِذا وَجَبَت جُنوبُها فَكُلوا مِنها وَأَطعِمُوا القانِعَ وَالمُعتَرَّ كَذٰلِكَ سَخَّرنٰها لَكُم لَعَلَّكُم تَشكُرونَ
Is this talking about the pilgrims? They are doing the sacrifice, they will mention GOD s name on it.
Now{ 5:3}:
Prohibited for you are animals that die of themselves, blood, the meat of pigs,* and animals dedicated to other than God. (Animals that die of themselves include those) strangled, struck with an object, fallen from a height, gored, attacked by a wild animal - unless you save your animal before it dies - and animals sacrificed on altars. Also prohibited is dividing the meat through a game of chance; this is an abomination. Today, the disbelievers have given up concerning (the eradication of) your religion; do not fear them and fear Me instead. Today, I have completed your religion, perfected My blessing upon you, and I have decreed Islam as " deen" for you. If one is forced by famine (to eat prohibited food), without being deliberately sinful, then God is Forgiver, Merciful.
حُرِّمَت عَلَيكُمُ المَيتَةُ وَالدَّمُ وَلَحمُ الخِنزيرِ وَما أُهِلَّ لِغَيرِ اللَّهِ بِهِ وَالمُنخَنِقَةُ وَالمَوقوذَةُ وَالمُتَرَدِّيَةُ وَالنَّطيحَةُ وَما أَكَلَ السَّبُعُ إِلّا ما ذَكَّيتُم وَما ذُبِحَ عَلَى النُّصُبِ وَأَن تَستَقسِموا بِالأَزلٰمِ ذٰلِكُم فِسقٌ اليَومَ يَئِسَ الَّذينَ كَفَروا مِن دينِكُم فَلا تَخشَوهُم وَاخشَونِ اليَومَ أَكمَلتُ لَكُم دينَكُم وَأَتمَمتُ عَلَيكُم نِعمَتى وَرَضيتُ لَكُمُ الإِسلٰمَ دينًا فَمَنِ اضطُرَّ فى مَخمَصَةٍ غَيرَ مُتَجانِفٍ لِإِثمٍ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفورٌ رَحيمٌ
And {5:4}
They consult you concerning what is lawful for them; say, "Lawful for you are all good things, including what trained dogs and falcons catch for you." You train them according to God's teachings. You may eat what they catch for you, and mention God's name thereupon. You shall observe God. God is most efficient in reckoning.
يَسـَٔلونَكَ ماذا أُحِلَّ لَهُم قُل أُحِلَّ لَكُمُ الطَّيِّبٰتُ وَما عَلَّمتُم مِنَ الجَوارِحِ مُكَلِّبينَ تُعَلِّمونَهُنَّ مِمّا عَلَّمَكُمُ اللَّهُ فَكُلوا مِمّا أَمسَكنَ عَلَيكُم وَاذكُرُوا اسمَ اللَّهِ عَلَيهِ وَاتَّقُوا اللَّهَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ سَريعُ الحِسابِ
Now here is the interesting bit {5:5}:
Today, all good food is made lawful for you. The food of the people of the scripture is lawful for you, [and your food is lawful for them]*. Also, you may marry the chaste women among the believers, as well as the chaste women among the followers of previous scripture, provided you pay them their due dowries. You shall maintain chastity, not committing adultery, nor taking secret lovers. Anyone who rejects faith, all his work will be in vain, and in the Hereafter he will be with the losers.
اليَومَ أُحِلَّ لَكُمُ الطَّيِّبٰتُ وَطَعامُ الَّذينَ أوتُوا الكِتٰبَ حِلٌّ لَكُم وَطَعامُكُم حِلٌّ لَهُم وَالمُحصَنٰتُ مِنَ المُؤمِنٰتِ وَالمُحصَنٰتُ مِنَ الَّذينَ أوتُوا الكِتٰبَ مِن قَبلِكُم إِذا ءاتَيتُموهُنَّ أُجورَهُنَّ مُحصِنينَ غَيرَ مُسٰفِحينَ وَلا مُتَّخِذى أَخدانٍ وَمَن يَكفُر بِالإيمٰنِ فَقَد حَبِطَ عَمَلُهُ وَهُوَ فِى الـٔاخِرَةِ مِنَ الخٰسِرينَ
GOD chooses His words carefully. We are responsible for making anything we eat " halal" by mentioning GOD s name on it before we "EAT". If we are slaughtering the animal ourselves then of course we say "god s name" on it . If it was prepared by someone else then we say "God s name" on it before we eat it.
We must be careful not to make things "halal" or " haram" when GOD made it lawful for us,
As long as we say " Bismillah" before we eat, everything is halal except the four meats that are clearly forbidden.
Peace to all.
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Salamun Alaikum.
Thank you Good Logic for collating the relevant verses on the topic.
With all due respect I tend to support the inspiration drawn by our friend Good Logic. Verse 22:36 specifically describes a ritual (Manasikan) prescribed for our community (Ummah) which we may observe during hajj period. On the otherhand, minimum requirement for animal slaughter has been prescribed in 5:3-4. Brother Joseph has translated/interpreted the term "thakaytum" as "processed in well know manner" and thereby linked it to 22:36. With due respect to Brother Joseph - per my understanding the term simply means to render aromatic (i.e. ensure edible quality of the meat through the process of legal slaughter) - I could not find any basis for linking it to either 22:36 or to pronouncing God's name during the slaughter. Rather verse 5:4 - in its essense - passes the responsibility of remembering God over the food to the one who eats - just as Good Logic has concluded.
If available, I also prefer the meat which is processed through ritual slaughter pronouncing God's name at the time of slaughter - over the one which is not. But I would strongly oppose drawing a deducted conclusion from the verses of Qur'an to render the religion of God more difficult than God has made it.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman
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Dear brother Armanaziz,
With respect, I have shared my evidence in a dedicated document from classical sources as to what the term 'thakaytum' means. I have also respectfully shared my position against your views as to how you understand dietary laws which I find wholly unwarranted from a Quranic perspective. Readers can of course, draw their own conclusions.
As I have nothing more to share on this topic, I will respectfully take leave and conclude my involvement with you on this subject matter.
In the end and as you know, there is no compulsion in religion.
Peace and regards,
Joseph :)
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Dear Brother Joseph:
Salamun Alaikum.
I much appreciate your tolerance and amicable approach.
Just as a supplemental information for the concerned readers: in Jewish Kosher slaughter rules - pronouncing the name of God at the time of slaughter is not a mandatory requirement.
Brother Joseph has duely discussed this issue in his Article # 3 above. More details on this subject is at below link:
http://muslimmatters.org/2012/06/22/is-kosher-meat-%E1%B8%A5alal-a-comparison-of-the-halakhic-and-shar%CA%BFi-requirements-for-animal-slaughter/ (http://muslimmatters.org/2012/06/22/is-kosher-meat-%E1%B8%A5alal-a-comparison-of-the-halakhic-and-shar%CA%BFi-requirements-for-animal-slaughter/)
This - per my humble understanding - further supports the understanding that the term "thakaytum" (even if we understand it as "slaughtered by you in well known manner") does not necessarily include pronouncing name of Allah at exact time of slaughter.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Best regards,
Arman
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Greetings Nura.
This is my opinion.
God Almighty has specified a very important criteria for His true believers, MENTION GOD"S NAME on everything you are going to eat. See 5:4, & 6:118-119,
[Quran 6:118] You shall eat from that upon which God's name has been pronounced, if you truly believe in His revelations.
[Quran 6:119] Why should you not eat from that upon which God's name has been mentioned? He has detailed for you what is prohibited for you, unless you are forced. Indeed, many people mislead others with their personal opinions, without knowledge. Your Lord is fully aware of the transgressors.
God in these verses puts the responsibility, as usual, on the individual. It is you, I and everyone's responsibility to mention God's name on everything we eat. Notice here that God says "EAT" and not "SLAUGHTER" when it comes to mentioning His name. God knows that one day these slaughter houses will be run by machines and computers. He assigned the responsibility to every true Muslim to mention His name on his /her food. We can have machines say Azan and read Basmallah and mention God's name on everything, but this would not take away the responsibility of every individual to remember God and mention His name when it is time to eat. Individuals who work in the slaughter house can be idol-worshipers or aetheist while claiming to be Muslims, Jews or Christians . That is why it is your responsibility to mention God's name before eating. In brief, the slaughter houses/others do not make the meat halal or haram but YOU do.
God did not make distinction between the meat prepared by a Muslim, a Christian, or a Jew, all are lawful to the same degree, all are HALAL. All should be eaten after God's name is pronounced on it before you eat it. Making it difficult for yourself, reflects a misunderstanding of or disbelief in God's book and His permission for us to eat the food of the Christians and Jews. Those who believe God in the Quran accept His permission to eat the food of the people of the scriptures and enjoy it and appreciate the mercy of the Most Merciful.
It does not matter what was said or done with food,before we eat , we are responsible to mention GOD s name and thank him for His provisions ,as simple as that in my opinion.
GOD bless.
Peace to you..
Salaam,
1. Assuming your analysis God took into consideration "the possibility of slaughter houses run by machines and computers", can you please clarify if the direction and instruction in the verse 6:118-119 is mandatory every time we eat any food or only when we eat meat?
2. If there is chicken, mutton, camel meat are available in front of us, do we need to mention separately Allah's name every time we start to eat from different items to make them halaal?
3. You said, 'the slaughter houses/others do not make the meat halal or haram but YOU do'. My question. Imagine eating time someone forgot to mention God's name, and if this happens will a halaal meat (God's name mentioned during slaughter) would become haraam due to this act?
Regards,
Optimist
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Greetings Optimist.
Thank you for your questions.
1- Let us quote the verses:
6:118
You shall eat from that upon which God's name has been pronounced, if you truly believe in His revelations.
فَكُلوا مِمّا ذُكِرَ اسمُ اللَّهِ عَلَيهِ إِن كُنتُم بِـٔايٰتِهِ مُؤمِنينَ
Mention God's Name Before You Eat. Note how God did not say "before you Slaughter"!
6:119
Why should you not eat from that upon which God's name has been mentioned? He has detailed for you what is prohibited for you, unless you are forced. Indeed, many people mislead others with their personal opinions, without knowledge. Your Lord is fully aware of the transgressors.
وَما لَكُم أَلّا تَأكُلوا مِمّا ذُكِرَ اسمُ اللَّهِ عَلَيهِ وَقَد فَصَّلَ لَكُم ما حَرَّمَ عَلَيكُم إِلّا مَا اضطُرِرتُم إِلَيهِ وَإِنَّ كَثيرًا لَيُضِلّونَ بِأَهوائِهِم بِغَيرِ عِلمٍ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ هُوَ أَعلَمُ بِالمُعتَدي
Yes I believe before we eat all food, meat and non-meat.
2- Common sense will prevail here.Every meal whether it is a single item or a 5 course meal( if one is not being too greedy? ie glutton...) needs one single mention of GOD s name . Appreciation of what GOD is providing and a thank you to Him.
3- GOD is forgiver most Merciful when one forgets. Ask for forgiveness and move on.
Here is an example in Qoran:
-- Joseph-- Slipped up and put his trust on other than GOD.
12:42
He then said to the one to be saved "Remember me at your lord."* Thus, the devil caused him to forget his Lord, and, consequently, he remained in prison a few more years.
وَقالَ لِلَّذى ظَنَّ أَنَّهُ ناجٍ مِنهُمَا اذكُرنى عِندَ رَبِّكَ فَأَنسىٰهُ الشَّيطٰنُ ذِكرَ رَبِّهِ فَلَبِثَ فِى السِّجنِ بِضعَ سِنينَ
GOD said if one forgets , ask for forgiveness.
Thank you once more .
GOD bless.
Peace.
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Bro Armanaziz, You are not following the idea behind taking Allah's name while slaughtering because some people slaughter the halal animal in the name of some dead people , Idols, and about their loved ones which is not permitted. To avoid the slaughter other than God we have to take Allah's name while slaghtering & also take Allah's name while eating. Bro JAI had rightly explained you but you are not following.
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Bro Sardar:
Salamun Alaikum.
Of course we have to pronounce Allah's name at the time of slaughtering and MUST NOT dedicate animals or other foods to anyone other than Allah. - I am not debating over this point.
The question is if I am unsure whether God's name was pronounced over a meat at the time of slaughter - which otherwise has been processed through "Legal Slaughter" (e.g. Kosher meat), is it OK for us remember Allah's name over it at the time of eating and eat it. There my conclusion is - it should be OK.
Best regards,
Arman
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Here is an example in Qoran:
-- Joseph-- Slipped up and put his trust on other than GOD.
12:42
He then said to the one to be saved "Remember me at your lord."* Thus, the devil caused him to forget his Lord, and, consequently, he remained in prison a few more years.
وَقالَ لِلَّذى ظَنَّ أَنَّهُ ناجٍ مِنهُمَا اذكُرنى عِندَ رَبِّكَ فَأَنسىٰهُ الشَّيطٰنُ ذِكرَ رَبِّهِ فَلَبِثَ فِى السِّجنِ بِضعَ سِنينَ
GOD said if one forgets , ask for forgiveness.
Salaam good logic, Where did you get the idea that prophet Joseph slipped up and put his trust in other than Allah???? As far as I can tell reading all the translations - it was one of the prisoners that forgot!!!! due to Satan's influence. !! Saba :) ;D
012.042
YUSUFALI: And of the two, to that one whom he consider about to be saved, he said: "Mention me to thy lord." But Satan made him forget to mention him to his lord: and (Joseph) lingered in prison a few (more) years.
PICKTHAL: And he said unto him of the twain who he knew would be released: Mention me in the presence of thy lord. But Satan caused him to forget to mention it to his lord, so he (Joseph) stayed in prison for some years.
SHAKIR: And he said to him whom he knew would be delivered of the two: Remember me with your lord; but the Shaitan caused him to forget mentioning (it) to his lord, so he remained in the prison a few years.
ASAD: And [thereupon Joseph] said unto the one of the two whom he considered saved: "Mention me unto thy lord [when thou art free]!" But Satan caused him to forget to mention [Joseph] to his lord, and so he remained in prison a few [more] years.
http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/12/42/default.htm
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Greetings Optimist.
Thank you for your questions.
1- Let us quote the verses:
6:118
You shall eat from that upon which God's name has been pronounced, if you truly believe in His revelations.
فَكُلوا مِمّا ذُكِرَ اسمُ اللَّهِ عَلَيهِ إِن كُنتُم بِـٔايٰتِهِ مُؤمِنينَ
Mention God's Name Before You Eat. Note how God did not say "before you Slaughter"!
6:119
Why should you not eat from that upon which God's name has been mentioned? He has detailed for you what is prohibited for you, unless you are forced. Indeed, many people mislead others with their personal opinions, without knowledge. Your Lord is fully aware of the transgressors.
وَما لَكُم أَلّا تَأكُلوا مِمّا ذُكِرَ اسمُ اللَّهِ عَلَيهِ وَقَد فَصَّلَ لَكُم ما حَرَّمَ عَلَيكُم إِلّا مَا اضطُرِرتُم إِلَيهِ وَإِنَّ كَثيرًا لَيُضِلّونَ بِأَهوائِهِم بِغَيرِ عِلمٍ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ هُوَ أَعلَمُ بِالمُعتَدي
Yes I believe before we eat all food, meat and non-meat.
Wassalam,
What is stated in the vers is not "Mention God's Name Before You Eat". What is stated in the verse is that we should eat only that meat on which Allah’s name has been pronounced at the time of the animal’s slaughter, if we are true believers in Allah's laws. Check with Arabic experts what does it mean مِمَّا ذُكِرَ اسْمُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْهِ. Mentioning Allah’s name at the time of slaugther is what is clealry implied in the verse which is corraborated by other verses like "You shall mention God's name on them while they are standing in line."(22:36). If the instruction in the verse is to mention Allah's name at the time of eating, it would have been simply mentioned that we eat their meat mentioning Allah's name.
2- Common sense will prevail here.Every meal whether it is a single item or a 5 course meal( if one is not being too greedy? ie glutton...) needs one single mention of GOD s name . Appreciation of what GOD is providing and a thank you to Him.
These are practical problems assuming your interpretation is correct. Imagine we are together at a restaurant. We order chicken first and as per the "instruction" in the verse we say bismilla (which makes the meat halaal according to you) and after we finish eating we order mutton. According to your interpretation we have to say again bismilla here to make the meat halaal.
3- GOD is forgiver most Merciful when one forgets. Ask for forgiveness and move on.
Have you checked the the verse closely? The instruction in the verse is followed by a strong warning, “if you truly believe in His revelations”. Therefore this is not a simple issue. Again my questions:
Do you have a case that it is not necessary to say Bismilla before slaughter, but it is necessary to say Bismilla before we eat?
Yes I believe before we eat all food, meat and non-meat.
I can agree with you if you say mentioning Allah’s name is strongly desirable every time we eat or drink anything. Allah, in His incredible mercy, does not want to make it mandatory for the people to mention Allah’s name every time we eat or drink. However, based on your interpretation, it would mean it is mandatory to say Bismilla before we eat meat, but not mandatory before we kill them.
The point must be simple. Animals are Allah’s creatures and we are killing them to eat. Allah has created them for the benefit of man. Therefore it is mandatory to mention the name of Allah before slaughtering them to eat, “if you truly believe in His revelations”.
Regards
Optimist
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What is stated in the vers is not "Mention God's Name Before You Eat". What is stated in the verse is that we should eat only that meat on which Allah’s name has been pronounced at the time of the animal’s slaughter, if we are true believers in Allah's laws. Check with Arabic experts what does it mean مِمَّا ذُكِرَ اسْمُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْهِ. Mentioning Allah’s name at the time of slaugther is what is clealry implied in the verse which is corraborated by other verses like "You shall mention God's name on them while they are standing in line."(22:36). If the instruction in the verse is to mention Allah's name at the time of eating, it would have been simply mentioned that we eat their meat mentioning Allah's name.
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Dear Optimist.
Salamun Alaikum.
Please do not impose words in between words of Allah and insist this is what Allah says. At best suggest this is how you understood it. Otherwise you may be risking a far greater sin.
Just a friendly suggestion.
Best regards,
Arman
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....
What is stated in the vers is not "Mention God's Name Before You Eat". What is stated in the verse is that we should eat only that meat on which Allah’s name has been pronounced at the time of the animal’s slaughter, if we are true believers in Allah's laws. Check with Arabic experts what does it mean مِمَّا ذُكِرَ اسْمُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْهِ. Mentioning Allah’s name at the time of slaugther is what is clealry implied in the verse which is corraborated by other verses like "You shall mention God's name on them while they are standing in line."(22:36). If the instruction in the verse is to mention Allah's name at the time of eating, it would have been simply mentioned that we eat their meat mentioning Allah's name.
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Dear Optimist.
Salamun Alaikum.
Please do not impose words in between words of Allah and insist this is what Allah says. At best suggest this is how you understood it. Otherwise you may be risking a far greater sin.
Just a friendly suggestion.
Best regards,
Arman
Wassalam,
With all respect, I want to state that it is YOU who is imposing words and interpreting verses to support your views. Can you give us a satisfactory reply about the strong warning contained in the verse “if you truly believe in His revelations”? Does Allah make it mandatory here to mention Allah's name before eating??? Or before slaughtering? Based on your explanation it is mandatory to mention before eating, but not mandatory before slaughtering. Kindly clarify.
Regards,
Optimist
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Bro Sardar:
Salamun Alaikum.
Of course we have to pronounce Allah's name at the time of slaughtering and MUST NOT dedicate animals or other foods to anyone other than Allah. - I am not debating over this point.
The question is if I am unsure whether God's name was pronounced over a meat at the time of slaughter - which otherwise has been processed through "Legal Slaughter" (e.g. Kosher meat), is it OK for us remember Allah's name over it at the time of eating and eat it. There my conclusion is - it should be OK.
Best regards,
Arman
Salam!
IT SHOULD BE OK?????? Kindly apply logic!
If your interpretation is accepted, it should mean that it is compulsory to mention Allah's name before eating...not that it should be ok. Because the verse clearly states to mention Allah's name "if we are true believers in Allah's laws". It is not something to be considered as OK.
Regards,
Optimist
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Salam,
I think in everything we do there is the danger beliving the result of our ability and work has other reasons then the will of the creator.
Sura 18
"(37) "But (I think) for my part that he is Allah, my Lord, and none shall I associate with my Lord. (38) "Why didst thou not, as thou wentest into thy garden, say: `Allah's Will (be done)! There is no power but with Allah!' If thou dost see me less than thee in wealth and sons (39) "It may be that my Lord will give me something better than "
If we slaughter or eat meat thinking this animal/meat is the result of my work than you associate others beside him.
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but if a Hindu dedicate the Food to his God if it is the allmighty one thei do no harm to themself if we are offered the the Food we had to mention the name of our Lord nevertheless.
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Dear brother Arman,
Sorry for posting two to three posts addresing to you after your last post.
You have accused me for imposing words in between words of Allah and insist this is what Allah says. Let us discuss the verse in question and see if I was "imposing" words.
فَكُلُوا مِمَّا ذُكِرَ اسْمُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْهِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ بِآيَاتِهِ مُؤْمِنِينَ
فَكُلُوا So eat
مِمَّا of what..here we are requested to eat from. The implication here is not the food in front of us.
ذُكِرَ (is) mentioned. The usage of the word is passive here. Here it is very clear that the person who eats need not necessarily the one who mentions Allah's name. And also the time referred is past, not connected to the time when food is in front of us.
اسْمُ اللَّهِ (the) name of Allah
عَلَيْهِ on it. what is referred here is not the prepared meat.
Also, I stated, the warning in the verse is very important to note; "if you truly believe in His messages".
I kinldy request brother Jospeh Islam to make a post clarifying the meaning and the possible implication of this verse 6:118.
Thanks, regards
Abdul Samad
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Salaam Optimist,
Verses 6:118-121 are very clear straight forward. Do not eat anything that has not had Allah's name mentioned upon it. Allah is not taking about fruits and vegetables. He talking about the Animals that are slaughtered that He mentioned in different verses. It is the way it is.. ones not going to die if they don't eat meat, if one wants to, than go eat it after the requirement Allah commanded has been done. If one thinks they say or mention Gods name in anyway when they slaughter the animals with machines, your living in a cave.
People tend to use other verses to patch up for a meaning to other verses such as their food is lawful to you and your food is lawful to them to think that mentioning of Allah's name is mentioned or not . Allah doesn't contradict Himself.
That's my belief...
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ذُكِرَ (is) mentioned. The usage of the word is passive here. Here it is very clear that the person who eats need not necessarily the one who mentions Allah's name. And also the time referred is past, not connected to the time when food is in front of us.
Salaam Optimist .. This is such a GOOD POINT ....
"Therefore eat of that on which Allah's name has been mentioned if you are believers in His communications." (6.118)
I checked 'dhukira' is a PASSIVE PERFECT VERB
http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=6&verse=118
That is the end of the discussion as far as I am concerned. Saba. :) 8)
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Greetings Saba.
That is how I understand the verse about Joseph. You may understand it differently
The point that I wanted to make is to get into the habit of remembering to say " Bismi allah", "In shaa allah" and " Mashaa allah"...etc. A true believer has GOD on his/her mind 24/7. If he/she errs or forgets then:
" Remember your Lord when you forget" and ask for forgiveness.
Greetings Optimist.
Thank you for your views. You mentioned slaughter , none of the verses I commented about have the word " slaughter" in them!
Now I believe the following verses clarify what I understand about lawful food:
16:114
Therefore, you shall eat from God's provisions everything that is lawful and good, and be appreciative of God's blessings, if you do worship Him alone.
فَكُلوا مِمّا رَزَقَكُمُ اللَّهُ حَلٰلًا طَيِّبًا وَاشكُروا نِعمَتَ اللَّهِ إِن كُنتُم إِيّاهُ تَعبُدونَ
Here is what is prohibited:
16:115
He only prohibits for you dead animals, blood, the meat of pigs,* and food which is dedicated to other than God. If one is forced (to eat these), without being deliberate or malicious, then God is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
إِنَّما حَرَّمَ عَلَيكُمُ المَيتَةَ وَالدَّمَ وَلَحمَ الخِنزيرِ وَما أُهِلَّ لِغَيرِ اللَّهِ بِهِ فَمَنِ اضطُرَّ غَيرَ باغٍ وَلا عادٍ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفورٌ رَحيمٌ
16:116
You shall not utter lies with your own tongues stating: "This is lawful, and this is unlawful," to fabricate lies and attribute them to God. Surely, those who fabricate lies and attribute them to God will never succeed.
وَلا تَقولوا لِما تَصِفُ أَلسِنَتُكُمُ الكَذِبَ هٰذا حَلٰلٌ وَهٰذا حَرامٌ لِتَفتَروا عَلَى اللَّهِ الكَذِبَ إِنَّ الَّذينَ يَفتَرونَ عَلَى اللَّهِ الكَذِبَ لا يُفلِحونَ
Finally This verse makes it clear that all food is allowed except the four mentioned in the verse:
6:145
Say, "I do not find in the revelations given to me any food that is prohibited for any eater except: (1) carrion, (2) running blood, (3) the meat* of pigs, for it is contaminated, and (4) the meat of animals blasphemously dedicated to other than God." If one is forced (to eat these), without being deliberate or malicious, then your Lord is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
قُل لا أَجِدُ فى ما أوحِىَ إِلَىَّ مُحَرَّمًا عَلىٰ طاعِمٍ يَطعَمُهُ إِلّا أَن يَكونَ مَيتَةً أَو دَمًا مَسفوحًا أَو لَحمَ خِنزيرٍ فَإِنَّهُ رِجسٌ أَو فِسقًا أُهِلَّ لِغَيرِ اللَّهِ بِهِ فَمَنِ اضطُرَّ غَيرَ باغٍ وَلا عادٍ فَإِنَّ رَبَّكَ غَفورٌ رَحيمٌ
Are we saying lamb or beef from the supermarket, yes any supermarket, is dedicated to other than GOD? Is it "Halal" or "Haram"?
I understand that we are responsible for making our food " halal" not others?
God bless.
Peace.
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ذُكِرَ (is) mentioned. The usage of the word is passive here. Here it is very clear that the person who eats need not necessarily the one who mentions Allah's name. And also the time referred is past, not connected to the time when food is in front of us.
Salaam Optimist .. This is such a GOOD POINT ....
"Therefore eat of that on which Allah's name has been mentioned if you are believers in His communications." (6.118)
I checked 'dhukira' is a PASSIVE PERFECT VERB
http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=6&verse=118
That is the end of the discussion as far as I am concerned. Saba. :) 8)
May Allah keep us focused on the Quran so that we can understand HIS verses correctly.
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Here is an example in Qoran:
-- Joseph-- Slipped up and put his trust on other than GOD.
12:42
He then said to the one to be saved "Remember me at your lord."* Thus, the devil caused him to forget his Lord, and, consequently, he remained in prison a few more years.
وَقالَ لِلَّذى ظَنَّ أَنَّهُ ناجٍ مِنهُمَا اذكُرنى عِندَ رَبِّكَ فَأَنسىٰهُ الشَّيطٰنُ ذِكرَ رَبِّهِ فَلَبِثَ فِى السِّجنِ بِضعَ سِنينَ
GOD said if one forgets , ask for forgiveness.
Salaam good logic, Where did you get the idea that prophet Joseph slipped up and put his trust in other than Allah???? As far as I can tell reading all the translations - it was one of the prisoners that forgot!!!! due to Satan's influence. !! Saba :) ;D
012.042
YUSUFALI: And of the two, to that one whom he consider about to be saved, he said: "Mention me to thy lord." But Satan made him forget to mention him to his lord: and (Joseph) lingered in prison a few (more) years.
PICKTHAL: And he said unto him of the twain who he knew would be released: Mention me in the presence of thy lord. But Satan caused him to forget to mention it to his lord, so he (Joseph) stayed in prison for some years.
SHAKIR: And he said to him whom he knew would be delivered of the two: Remember me with your lord; but the Shaitan caused him to forget mentioning (it) to his lord, so he remained in the prison a few years.
ASAD: And [thereupon Joseph] said unto the one of the two whom he considered saved: "Mention me unto thy lord [when thou art free]!" But Satan caused him to forget to mention [Joseph] to his lord, and so he remained in prison a few [more] years.
http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/12/42/default.htm
Dear All,
This topic has been split and moved to another thread. Please see below.
Prophet Joseph's Reliance on Allah
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1157
Thanks
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Dear Brother Optimist:
Salamun Alaikum.
I have not accused you of imposing words in between Allah's words. I just tried to warn you that the way you were choosing your words seemed to be taking you towards that direction. So let's just be a bit more careful about our word choices, that's all.
Let me humbly reply to your questions directed to me. I believe you want me to explain what I understand of the verse 6:118. My understanding of the meaning of the verse and the subsequent ones (6:118-121) is as follows:
6:118 So eat of that upon which the name of Allah has been remembered if you happen to be believers in His signs.
6:119 And why should you not eat of that upon which the name of Allah has been remembered when certainly He explained to you what He has prohibited for you except that which you are compelled to. And indeed many have surely been deviated by their fancies without knowledge. Indeed your Master – He knows best of the transgressors.
6:120 And give-up the visible sin and the secret ones; indeed those who earn the sin, they will be repaid for what they used to acquire.
6:121 And do not eat of that upon which the name of Allah has not been remembered, and indeed it surely is willful disobedience, and indeed the devils inspire to their guardians so that they argue with you, but if you obey them – indeed you would surely be associating partners (with Allah).
[The above is my personal translation. Please do cross check with other translations - or best: the original Arabic text.]
I believe these verses - especially 6:119 refers back to previous verses like 2:173; 5:3-4 etc. where Allah has mentioned the specific items which have been made prohibited - and encourages us to eat good things - other than those prohibited items - after duely remembering Allah over the food.
Yes, "upon which the name of Allah has been rememberred" is in past tense. To me this implies the name of Allah could have been remembered anytime during the food preparation and serving process. The best way for me to be sure is by mentoning Allah just before I eat.
And per verse 6:121 I do not eat any food if I am unsure if Allah's name has been remembered over it - UNTILL I remember Allah over it and thus complete my duty of due diligence. In fact a concious person (muttaqui) always remembers Allah's mercy over his food - even if forgets to explicitly mention it, in the back of his mind he always appreciates Allah for the food - UNLESS devil inspires him to dedicate the food to someone other than Allah, which would be willful disobedience (fisk).
Most of the time I do not know the people who slaughter the animals I eat - so it is impractical for me to ascertain whom they "really" remembered during slaughter even if someone certifies the food as Halal. Because, at the end of the day, those who are certifying are not my Master - Allah is. So is it OK for me to NOT remember Allah over a food certified Halal? I don't think so. Per my humble understanding I am only accountable to my Master for whom I remember over my food. That's how I understand the verses of my Master and that's how I try to practice.
You are of course free to understand and act upon the verses the way they make most sense to you.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Best regards,
Arman
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Yes, "upon which the name of Allah has been remembered" is in past tense. To me this implies the name of Allah could have been remembered anytime during the food preparation and serving process. The best way for me to be sure is by mentioning Allah just before I eat.
Salaam!
NO. it is in the passive form, meaning, the person who eats need not necessarily the one who mentions Allah's name.
You are now saying that the name of Allah could have been remembered anytime during the food preparation and serving process. You have diluted your stand (earlier you were specific about mentioning God's name before eating), but now reached up to the stage from food preparation till eating (still finding it difficult to go beyond this stage to slaughtering!).
My questions: I have been repeatedly asking you several times, but without any reply from you. Sorry! I have to re-phrase my question based on your comment above.
1. Is it mandatory to mention God's name between any time after slaughtering until we eat, in view of the clear instruction in the verse "if we are true believers in Allah's law".?
2. Suppose in a case where I am personally convinced that the animal is slaughtered mentioning Allah's name, still then, is it required for me to mention Allah's name (anytime starting from food preparation till I eat)?
Please you should not avoid answering the above two questions this time. Please brother Arman. Thanks
Most of the time I do not know the people who slaughter the animals I eat - so it is impractical for me to ascertain whom they "really" remembered during slaughter even if someone certifies the food as Halal. Because, at the end of the day, those who are certifying are not my Master - Allah is. So is it OK for me to NOT remember Allah over a food certified Halal? I don't think so. Per my humble understanding I am only accountable to my Master for whom I remember over my food. That's how I understand the verses of my Master and that's how I try to practice.
Good that you raised a practical question. Well appreciated. Let me ask you another question. Most of the time we also do not know whether the meat we actually eat is from a dead animal and it is also impractical for me to ascertain the meat is not prepared from a dead animal. So what is the solution under these circumstances? Just mentioning Allah's name before eating?
Kindly note, these practical issues and difficulties are not the reasons for the rules stipulated by Allah. It is the responsibility of the Muslim society/ state to ensure that they have proper licensed slaughtering houses where animals are slaughtered following Islamic rules, managed by Muslims only, no dead animals are brought to the slaughtering houses, all animals brought for slaughtering are healthy and devoid of major sickness, no animals are slaughtered dedicated to others other than Allah, etc. If no Islamic state is in existence, the slaughtering has to be handled through collective efforts of Muslims in an area. It will be the responsibility of Muslims in an area to ensure that strict Islamic rules are followed. You are trying to bypass a rule with excuses. I believe that if something happens even after all the precautions are taken, we do not have to worry about the consequences. Please note, if an animal is slaughtered dedicated to others other than Allah, even if you mention a thousand times Allah’s name, its meant is not going to be Halaal for you. We have a duty to ensure that we do not eat animals dedicated to others. Allah certainly may forgive us if we eat meant of an animal (after all precautions are taken) on the belief that it is not dedicated to others other than Allah and that Allah’s name has been pronounced at the time of slaughter. This is entirely a different issue.
Regards,
Optimist
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Dear Brother Optimist:
Salamun Alaikum.
"Earlier you were specific about mentioning God's name before eating"... "You are now saying that the name of Allah could have been remembered anytime during the food preparation and serving process." - Sorry, I fail to understand the point you are trying to make here. Food preparation - slaughter these processes all come "before eating". How am I diluting the stance then? What I tried to mean is - if we are involved in the food preparation first-hand we can remember God's name at that time - but if our engagement with the food starts just before we eat, then the most appropriate time to remember God over it also comes just before we eat. Hope this is clear now.
1. Is it mandatory to mention God's name between any time after slaughtering until we eat, in view of the clear instruction in the verse "if we are true believers in Allah's law".?
Depends on how do you define "Mention". Per my understanding the arabic word Allah has mentioned in this context is dhikr - which is best translated as "remember". So, per my understanding it IS MANDATORY to Ensure that God's name has been REMEMBERED over the food we eat - anytime starting from the time of slaughter till we eat. The best (and only risk-free) process to ensure the same is to Remember God ourselves over our own food.
2. Suppose in a case where I am personally convinced that the animal is slaughtered mentioning Allah's name, still then, is it required for me to mention Allah's name (anytime starting from food preparation till I eat)?
You are not required to "mention" Allah's name - that, per my understanding is Optional or "Best practice" - but you are always required to remember that the food you eat is a mercy from Allah - the Master of the Universe. If you are a Muslim, then the only way you can possibly not remember it is - when you dedicate the food to someone else forgetting the instructions of Allah. That, per my understanding, would be a willful disobedience (fisk) - even if you are eating from an animal which has been slaughtered by someone else in the name of Allah.
Most of the time we also do not know whether the meat we actually eat is from a dead animal and it is also impractical for me to ascertain the meat is not prepared from a dead animal. So what is the solution under these circumstances? Just mentioning Allah's name before eating?
Yes, it is not always possible for us to be 100% sure if an animal has been slaughtered in perfectly legitimate manner - let alone who remembered what during slaughtering. Even the people who certify halal food only does that on sample inspection basis - so who knows what's really going on in the slaughterhouse behind the curtain where numerous animals are slaughtered on daily basis. I believe that's why our Merciful Master has provided us with an indemnity clause in verse 5:4. Per my understanding the verse implies - it is OK for us to eat any meat as long as we ensure 3 things:
1) The food is delicious (taiyyibat), i.e. the meat is in good, wholesome, aromatic edible condition.
2) Those who processed the meat (specially slaughtering) are "trained" in the proper method. [This, per my understanding, can be reasonably ensured through Halal/Kosher or some other comparable certification.]
3) We remember God's name over the food ourselves.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman
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One clarification - when I am talking about "meat" in my above post I am refering to meat EXCEPT the explicit prohibitions in Qur'an - which includes the flesh of swine.
Just mentioning this to avoid any confusion.
Regards,
Arman
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Salaam!
I did not see any comment from you for a material point I raised regarding verse 6:118 that the person who eats need not necessarily the one who mentions Allah's name (the verb is clearly in passive form).
Your assumption that it IS MANDATORY to Ensure that God's name has been REMEMBERED over the food we eat - anytime starting from the time of slaughter till we eat is wrong. It is at the time of killing an animal Allah’s name has to be remembered. NO where Quran makes us mandatory to mention Allah's name at the time of eating. It can be only termed as only Optional or "Best practice" and that too with any food, not just meat.
Unfortunately, your explanation suddenly makes it mandatory for us to mention Allah’s name before eating and it has a serious implication that we ignore the importance of mentioning Allah’s name during killing animals based on the belief that mentioning Allah’s name at the time of eating would be sufficient. You are misinterpreting Quranic verses to suite your practical easiness. You want to eat from anywhere without caring who slaughtered the animals, whether it is dedicated to others or not. Through this misinterpreation, you will be held responsible for two wrongs in one sitting, (1) You goes against Quran which makes it mandatory to mention Allah’s name at the time of slaughtering (suddenly it becomes just as a 'best practice'), whereas Quran makes it mandatory in this verse 6:118, which is further corroborated by Verse 22:36 in which it states "You shall mention God's name on them while they are standing in line". (2) You are making it mandatory to mention Allah’s name at the time of eating, something which Allah did not make it mandatory for the people in his incredible mercy to mankind. According to your explanation the mercy from God is that we just need to say bismilla to make any food halaal and we do not need to bother how the animal is slaughtered, if it is dedicated to others, etc (this will be the necessary result of your explanation) ......Sigh!
Please take care!
Regards,
Optimist
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Dear brother Optimist,
Salam Alaykum.
I am not here to debate this matter, but simply want to ask you a question. Do you think only animals during slaughtering can be dedicated to a deity, and not other types of food? What if fruits and fishes are dedicated to other false deities by the people who collect them and sell them?
Regards.
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Dear Brother Optimist:
Salamun Alaikum.
I have mentioned before and saying again - you are absolutely fee to understand the verses of Qur'an as per your own intellect. You are responsible for your understanding, and I am for mine. But, unfortunately you seem to be misrepresenting or misinterpreting what I am saying - which is not acceptable. Below I am trying to rectify the misrepresentations that you have made about my position - the underlined sentences reflect your accusitions and what follows are my clarifications:
Your explanation suddenly makes it mandatory for us to mention Allah’s name before eating and it has a serious implication that we ignore the importance of mentioning Allah’s name during killing animals based on the belief that mentioning Allah’s name at the time of eating would be sufficient.
The above statement is incorrect at two levels:
1) I did not say it is mandatory to "mention" Allah's name before eating; I said it is mandatory to ensure Allah's name has been REMEMBERED over what we eat. - that's per my understanding of verses of Qur'an (6:118-121). Then additionally I deducted that, per my understanding, the only practical and risk-free way to adhere to this Qur'anic commandment is by remembering Allah over our own food ourselves. [If you know of a better way - take it.]
2) I did not ask to ignore the imprortance of mentioning Allah’s name during killing animals when we ourselves are engaged in the process of slaughtering - that is quite obviously encouraged in 22:36. All I am saying is, for a 'non-pork" meat which is otherwise expected to be acquired and processed in the prescribed legitimate manner (Al Qur'an 5:3), and not known to have been dedicated to anyone other than God either - whether or not God's name has been pronounced at the time of slaughter should not be the deciding factor in decreeing the meat as haram/halal. Because Allah has SPECIFICALLY given us the option of eating such meat by remembering Allah over it ourselves (Al Qur'an 5:4).
You want to eat from anywhere without caring who slaughtered the animals, whether it is dedicated to others or not.
I have always maintained and continue to maintain that if we have specific information that any food (be it meat, fish or vegetable) has been dedicated to other than Allah - it becomes Haram for us. Because eating such items could be viewed as our implicit support in the act and hence would be considered as a willful disobedience (fisk) on our part. In my country there are practices where so called "Muslims" dedicate animals at the shrine of dead priests with a hope that the dead priest would intercede for them with Allah. Na'usubillah - I do consider such practices and meat of such animals Haram. However, if we are compelled to eat such food without coveting or recurring any more than necessary then there is NO SIN IN IT - because our Master is Forgiving, Kind. (Al Qur'an 2:173)
But you got my intensions right that I want to make dietary rules as simple and easy as Allah has made it (Al Qur'an 5:93; 6:145). I have seen "Muslims" who would not eat anything except water and plain steamed rice in countries where they cannot find a "Halal Certified" restaurant. I sincerely believe this cannot be a correct method to appreciate the bounty of our Almighty Master. I do believe that our scholars and "imams" have made the dietary rules far more complicated and difficult than Qur'an prescribes it to be. I want to understand the real prohibitions of Qur'an so that I can freely try all the good things (tayyibat) that are not prohibited and then appreciate my Master for His mercy.
Dear brother - if you still have confusion about what I am concluding - then probably it is because of limitation of my communication ability. Given that, if you still accuse me of saying things which I did not say - I'll probably just ignore it.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman
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Then additionally I deducted that, per my understanding, the only practical and risk-free way to adhere to this Qur'anic commandment is by remembering Allah over our own food ourselves. [If you know of a better way - take it.]
Salaam!!
You have been Continuously stating 'practical and risk-free way' as a main point in your comments. I kindly request you to think with me.
We are supposed NOT to eat meat from the dead. You will agree with me. Is there any 'practical and risk-free way' to ensure that you are not eating dead meat?
So also, is there any practical and risk free way to ensure that the food we eat is not the meat of Swine, dogs and rats, not dedicated to Allah, devoid of animal with serious sickness, etc.?
My question: Why do you insist for practical and risk free way for mentioning Allah's name issue alone??
According to me, there are sufficient reasons for Allah to make it mandatory to mention Allah's name during slaughter (1) We are killing animals they are also creatures like us, so it has to be by mentioning the name of Allah (2) It can further ensure that animals are properly slaughtered (no dead, other animals which we do not eat are involved) (3) It can further ensure that animals are slaughtered only in the name of Allah alone.
Regards,
Optimist
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Dear Brother Optimist:
Wa alikum As Salam.
I do not understand why you keep on asking the same questions again and again. I have mentioned before that in verse 5:4 Allah has given the eaters the indemnity over what they eat as long as a) they eat good things, b) ensuring they are from a source who are taught the right process of animal slaughter and last but not least c) they remember Allah over it themselves. I am just emphasizing the point C here. Even if we are unsure of whether Allah's name was pronounced at the time of slaughter - as long as we remember Allah's name over our own food - we have done the required due diligence from our part and hence we are risk free. Please refer to verse 5:4 and then let me know if you are still not getting the point.
I know according to you there is sufficient reason for Allah to make it mandatory to mention Allah's name during slaughter. According to a vegetarian buddhist, there is even more sufficient reasons for God to make all animals prohibited (how can we kill for food!). According to a hindu there is sufficient reason for God to make cows prohibited (we drink cow's milk, they are like our mother!). But you know what - I don't care. All I care about is what Allah has really prohibited based on His exact words - not what He should have or could have prohibited. My Master does not run short of words. He could have said "do not eat the animals which have not been slaughtered in My name" - if that was the intension. But He chose not to do so to make our life easy. I am deeply and specifically grateful to Allah for this kind gesture. I will eat the good things that my Master has provided me and appreciate Him - because He is the one I am slave to - then if I make a mistake, I know my Master is Forgiving, Kind.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman
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Salaam brother Arman,
I have one important question. The Quran states in Verse 6:119, the very next verse after 6:118 which you insist as individual responsiblity to mention Allah's name before eating;
وَمَا لَكُمْ أَلَّا تَأْكُلُوا مِمَّا ذُكِرَ اسْمُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْهِ
Meaning, "And why should you not eat of that over which God's name has been pronounced, seeing that He has so clearly spelled out to you what He has forbidden you [to eat] unless you are compelled [to do so]?"
Do you think Quran is talking about a situation where someone NOT eating after he/she has already volundarily mentioned Allah's name before eating???
Looking forward to your comment.
Regards,
Optimist
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Wa alaikum as Salam, brother Optimist.
Yes I DO THINK that Quran is talking about a situation where someone NOT eating after he/she has already volundarily mentioned Allah's name before eating. You think such a situation is absurd? Not really - try looking in a mirror.
Like I would happily eat good meat coming from a "non-religious" slaughterhouse where they have the procedure to conduct the slaughter legitimately - after I have remembered Allah over it.
And why shouldn't I eat such meat over which I have personally ensured Allah's name has been remembered seeing that He has so clearly spelled out to us what He has forbidden us [to eat] unless we are compelled [to do so] in verse 2:173?
Apparently you would not eat such meat even if you have option to remember God over it, right? Can you then please explain why you would not eat such meat in light of 6:119? Only because Qur'an mentions it in passive voice - so you have concluded someone else has to do the remembering for you? Then if your doctor tell you not to eat uncooked meat - in passive voice - would you understand it is not sufficient that you cook it by yourself, rather someone else has to cook it for you?
Best regards,
Arman
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Wa alaikum as Salam, brother Optimist.
Yes I DO THINK that Quran is talking about a situation where someone NOT eating after he/she has already volundarily mentioned Allah's name before eating. You think such a situation is absurd? Not really - try looking in a mirror.
Like I would happily eat good meat coming from a "non-religious" slaughterhouse where they have the procedure to conduct the slaughter legitimately - after I have remembered Allah over it.
And why shouldn't I eat such meat over which I have personally ensured Allah's name has been remembered seeing that He has so clearly spelled out to us what He has forbidden us [to eat] unless we are compelled [to do so] in verse 2:173?
Apparently you would not eat such meat even if you have option to remember God over it, right? Can you then please explain why you would not eat such meat in light of 6:119? Only because Qur'an mentions it in passive voice - so you have concluded someone else has to do the remembering for you? Then if your doctor tell you not to eat uncooked meat - in passive voice - would you understand it is not sufficient that you cook it by yourself, rather someone else has to cook it for you?
Best regards,
Arman
Dear brother Arman, Salaaam!
Sorry to say I can not find any logic at all in your statement.
If someone has already mentioned Allah's name / ensured himself that Allah's name is remembered, THEN, it would certainly mean that he/she plans to eat and he/she has no problem to eat. The question of asking "why should you not eat of that over which God's name has been pronounced" does not arise at all. SIMPLE. The question posed by Allah is NOT 'why you refuse to eat meat when you yourself have remembered Allah's name?'. If someone has remembered Allah's name he certainly plans to eat. The question posed by Allah is why you refuse to eat meat which is properly slaughtered mentioning Allah's name. Actually the focus here is unnecessary restrictions imposed by people to eat what is declared Hal’al and over which Allah's name has been pronounced at the time of slaughter.
While appreciating your argument skill, I strongly disagree with your effort to bring up some strange, bizarre examples to fit the meaning of the verses of the Quran as if these strange examples are the one intended by Allah. I kindly request you to take care.
Regards
Optimist
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Dear Brother Optimist:
Salamun Alaikum.
You have on one hand appreciated my argument skill and on the other hand saying you do not find in what I say "any logic at all". Usually if I do not find any logic in someone's statement I would not appreciate his argument skill - but then again how you and I eveluate logic and arguments may be different. Point noted.
I believe we both have reached the end of discussion here. You have summarized the focus of 6:119 with the following statement: "Actually the focus here is unnecessary restrictions imposed by people to eat what is declared Hal’al and over which Allah's name has been pronounced at the time of slaughter." I agree with you except for the last 5 words (pointed in red) - which I still feel is an unwarranted addition to what Allah is saying in these verses.
If you still insist to add these words (i.e. "at the time of slaughter") - the burden of proof is upon you to show from exact words of Qur'an where you get these. I know you will jump to 22:36 - but please show me the linkage - show me how 22:36 is supposed to be the only process to remember Allah over the meat we eat. Per my reading of the words of Qur'an (in 22:34) this is supposed to be a recommended ritual (manasikan) for our community (ummah), like rituals have been prescribed to other communities - not a general dietary rule. For Allah has clearly allowed us to eat from the food of selected other communities in Al-Quran 5:5. If you have concluded that the linkage has to be there because your imam / scholar / master has told you so - then I leave you with them and their deductions. Indeed I have faced my face to the One who framed the heavens and the earth in precision and I do not happen to be one associating partners with Him.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Best regards,
Arman
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Bro Arman The basic point is that you have to ensure that the animal is was right fully slaughtered taking Allah's name and you have to eat by taking Allah's name. No further discussions or clarification needed. The discussions are deemed to have concluded.
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I am pondering over the Situation that allows to eat forbidden meat
6:119 Why should you not eat that on which God's name has been mentioned, when He has sufficiently detailed to you what has been made forbidden; except what you are forced to? Many misguide by their desires without knowledge; your Lord is fully aware of the transgressors.
Question to the members ,when are we forced to eat such meat?Invitation?In the Outback?
If we do the whole proces for our one we can follow the instruction of Allah(st).
A:to choose the proper animal;slaugtering in the right way,mentioning the Name of Allah(st)
Aa:to avoid anmals overwhich not mentioned Name of Allah before (5:3)that are forbidden;collecting the Blood
Aaa:prepare your meal and eat from (A)
B:if you are not indulged in A till Aaa;meat from non-monotestic People/non-religious People;wilderness
So if we are not indulged in these proces of A till Aaa and we found ourself in an Invitation or we are in the wilderness,you are forced to Aa and it doesn´t matter if you are pronoucing now the the name of Allah(st)over it or not because its an emergency.
If according to some of you making the meat lawful anytime by saying""Bismillah"then there wouldn´t be the phrase which makes it mandotary to say it in the process of A:"Why should you not eat that on which God's name has been mentioned, when He has sufficiently detailed to you what has been made forbidden;..."except if we are forced like metioned above.
Again if we can eat meat without going through A and Aa just by saying "Bismiallah" to make it halal it wouldn´t be mentioned in the Quran the exception like i mentioned in B: where you can say the name anytime before eating.
My conclusion eating meat without knowing if it is slaughtered in the right way/over which the name of Allah(st)
has been not mentioned is not halal by saying the name.
regards
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Dear Brother Optimist:
Salamun Alaikum.
You have on one hand appreciated my argument skill and on the other hand saying you do not find in what I say "any logic at all". Usually if I do not find any logic in someone's statement I would not appreciate his argument skill - but then again how you and I eveluate logic and arguments may be different. Point noted.
Wassalam,
I appreciated your argument skill only. I only meant that you can be a best Lawyer for someone who is on the wrong side.
I believe we both have reached the end of discussion here. You have summarized the focus of 6:119 with the following statement: "Actually the focus here is unnecessary restrictions imposed by people to eat what is declared Hal’al and over which Allah's name has been pronounced at the time of slaughter." I agree with you except for the last 5 words (pointed in red) - which I still feel is an unwarranted addition to what Allah is saying in these verses.
Your disagreement "at the time of slaughter" is noted. Let us replace these 5 words with what you have stated in post number 29 (last post in page 2). The one I highlight in blue would be your comment.
“The Focus here is unnecessary restrictions imposed by people to eat what is declared Hal’al and over which Allah's name has been pronounced “anytime during the food preparation and serving process, the best time being just before eating”.
To quote you exactly what you mentioned in post number 29: “To me this implies the name of Allah could have been remembered anytime during the food preparation and serving process. The best way for me to be sure is by mentioning Allah just before I eat.”
Again, with risk of repetition, let me state that, the question posed by Allah is NOT 'why you refuse to eat meat when you yourself have remembered Allah's name?'. If someone has remembered Allah's name anytime during the food preparation and serving process, the best time being just before eating he certainly plans to eat. You are making Allah’s question meaningless.
Sorry to strongly disagree (appreciating again your general argument skills). This is all from my side.
Regards,
Optimist
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Dear Brother Optimist:
Salamun Alaikum.
Your disagreement with me duely noted. Let's agree to disagree and move ahead.
Thanks for your time to engage and discuss with me the issue with patience. I have really gained a lot of insight from the discussions.
May Allah guide us to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman
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Wa'ssalam,
With all due respect to you, let me say, I can only disagree with you. It is difficult for me to agree to disagree since the issue is related to ALLAH and His commandments. But I do not have anything against you at personal level. That's why I even appreciated your general argument skills.
Thanks for making me THINK and contemplate more about Allah and His verses.
Assalamu alaikum
Regards
Optimist
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Salam Bro Optimist If I am not mistaken your name is Abdul Samad? Right ? To my knowledge this name is pronounced as " Abdus Samad" Thanks
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Wassalam.....I agree with you the name to be prounced as Abdus Samad in pure Arabic.
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Thanks for reply. Once you start writing as Abdul Samad you have to continue with same spellings unless it is notified & changed.
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Bro Goodlogic Salam Do you run own a Forum or Web site? What is the purpose can you please highlight? Thanks
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Greetings Sardar.
I have a website but no forum. People can leave a comment or ask a question.
I should not really call it mine. I just call to GOD Alone. The rest is up to GOD.
Here is the reason, :
Does your religion divide itself into factions/groups/sects?
If you do not have a religion, who are you loyal to?
Who has the truth? Does it matter? What is the truth?
How do you know ?
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Greetings Sardar.
I got cut off from my last post.
I meant to add:
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Bro Good logic Thanks for quick reply. I am an ordinary Muslim Faith in Allah & Quran & no sect. I try to go through your Web site but was disappointed to read god alone in your web site instead of " God Alone". One has to write God with capital G. Thanks