QM Forum
The Quran => General Discussions => Topic started by: Ismail on January 31, 2014, 03:08:55 AM
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Salaam.
The following remarks are taken from pages 9 and 10 of the book available online:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/37354743/Understanding-Quran-Themes-and-Style-by-Abdel-Haleem
(Courtesy, Wakas.)
"Arabs themselves find English translations of the Qur’an disappointing, unconvincing, and lacking in the cohesion, clarity and grandeur, as well as the rhythm and power, of the original Qur’anic verses.
"A comparison between the history and manner of translation of the Bible and the Qur’an into English is useful in this regard.
"The Authorised Version of the Bible was translated by a group of forty-seven, including clerics, scholars and men of letters working together to produce a work for King James I.
"The New English Bible was retranslated into modern English by a similarly large group of English-speaking people.
"On the other hand, the first translation of the Qur’an into English was made by Alexander Ross and printed in1649. He called it The Alcoran of Mahomet, the Prophet of the Turks … newly Englished for the satisfaction of all that desire to look into the Turkish vanities . Ross was not a specialist in the Qur’an or˙adíth, and he did not know Arabic, but based his translation on a French version. He added a letter ‘From the Translator to the Christian Reader’, justifying his translation of the ‘heresy of Mahomet’to satisfy his critics who almost prevented the publication of this ‘danger-ous book’.
"This was the beginning of a long tradition of translations and studies of the Qur’an in English. Some – Rodwell (1861) and Bell (1937) –sought to refute it in the light of the Bible, while others – Sale (1734), Palmer (1880), Pickthall (1930) and Arberry (1955) – brought increasing understanding the qur’an levels of scholarship in Arabic and appreciation of Arabic literature, and decreasing levels of prejudice to bear on their translations – no prejudice being apparent in the last two.
"There are now numerous translations in English, but not one has been made by more than one person at a time, and no Arab Muslim specialist in Qur’anic studies has made a translation.
"The Qur’an’s unique qualities in the Arabic need to be analysed in Eng-lish, and a new approach adopted towards its translation.
"Even the best of the available translations pose very serious difficulties in the proper appreciation and understanding of the Qur’an. The Arabic original, however, will remain to the Muslims the sacred speech, ‘a sublime scripture’ (41:41)."
Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
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Salaam,
I myself find the English translated Quran disappointing, as I read through it, I always feel, something is not right here. I always goo and listen to the verse in Arabic to get a better understanding. I get very very confused when stuff is put in parentheses.
That is why I encourage Brother Joseph to humbly write one.. ;) At least he will get the meaning of thetranslation correct..
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Salaam,
I myself find the English translated Quran disappointing, as I read through it, I always feel, something is not right here. I always goo and listen to the verse in Arabic to get a better understanding. I get very very confused when stuff is put in parentheses.
That is why I encourage Brother Joseph to humbly write one.. ;) At least he will get the meaning of thetranslation correct..
You are absolutely correct!! I have heard from a friend the various distinctives of the English Qur'an.......................
- Qur'an that tries to stick very closely to Arabic parts of speech, Arabic word order, and Arabic grammar- one like Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall’s.
- Qur'an that is more of a commentary than a translation - one like Abdullah Yusuf Ali’s..
- Arthur John Arberry’s: This translation focuses on conveying the meaning of the original Arabic text in modern English prose.
- Putting the Qur’an into chronological order. For a translation that attempts to do that, we recommend NJ Dawood’s earlier versions (1956-1974).
HOWEVER.... There is not an English Quran that puts aside the biases (conscious or unconscious casued by traditions) which is faithful in carrying the meaning of text into English!! An exercise for anyone is to read the articles on this site concerning Ummi, Isa, People of the Book, the former books, and many other areas, then read translations which are blatantly false!!
There needs to be a revolution concerning the Quran into all the major languages globally! If Muslims really are serious about the Qur'an, this is one area where Islam can learn from Christianity with their global Bible translation program. Despite the subtle biases that are pro-Trinitarian, translators are accountable to large bodies of original language experts to check the accuracy of their work. It would seem accurate translation is not of utmost priority with the Qur'an. Possibly because in understanding the Qurans true Message has never had great emphasis.
I feel these Qur'an translations should also have appendixes that bring cultural understanding of the era of Muhammad. This is so the western English reader can better appreciate the calling and context of Muhammad.
b) Besides this, there is desperately needed a global effort to have the Bible re-translated by Muslims in consultation with original language consultants to bring back the original Tauhid context into the misleading words...
Anyway in my mind this is priority, or else how will the world understand the "qurans message" (-:
Wasalam
Daniel
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Salaam Daniel,
I agree with you 100%. We do not need somoene who is a scholor to do this either otherwise we will never get anywhere. It is going to take people like us in this site to figure something out and start doing something about it. Many translations I come across has opnion than the real meaning on many words that is the focus of the verse.
Here is an example #1 of Verse Al-Nisa 4:34 Yusuf Ali: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
Sahih International: Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.
Pickthall: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
Yusuf Ali: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
Shakir: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.
Muhammad Sarwar: Men are the protectors of women because of the greater preference that God has given to some of them and because they financially support them. Among virtuous women are those who are steadfast in prayer and dependable in keeping the secrets that God has protected. Admonish women who disobey (God's laws), do not sleep with them and beat them. If they obey (the laws of God), do not try to find fault in them. God is High and Supreme.
Mohsin Khan: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allah and to their husbands), and guard in the husband's absence what Allah orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property, etc.). As to those women on whose part you see illconduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allah is Ever Most High, Most Great.
Arberry: Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; God is All-high, All-great.
REAL MEANING... from BJ (Part)
"...As from those whom you fear ill-conduct (Arabic: nushuzahunna) advise them (Arabic: fa'izuhunna) and (Arabic: wa) forsake their (Arabic: uh'juruhunna) beds and (Arabic: wa) separate from them (Arabic: idribohunna); but if they return to obedience, then do not seek against them a way. Indeed, God is Most High, The Greatest"
And this misrepresented verse leads to people who are nonn muslim that Islam promotes wife beating.. What is worse is muslims who read or listen to this verse also think God is giving them permission to beat their woves and some surely do..
There are soooo many verses, and not everyone can read Arabic, that is why we need someone.. Hint Hint.. ;D BJ, to start when he is willing and ready..
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peace Abbsrayray,
The issue of 4:34 is discussed in detail here: www.Quran434.com
It also highlight issues with interpretations such as "separate from them".
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Salaam Wakes,
I know the verse meaning that BJ has and meaning. I am just agreeing with Daniel how the English translation is very confusing and the meaning of words is written by the authors own thinking and it takes away the whole meaning of the point of the verse.
Thank You thou.. I am not married nor ever will go that route so I am not worried about a man beating me... loool :D :D :D :D
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Salaam Daniel,
I agree with you 100%. We do not need somoene who is a scholor to do this either otherwise we will never get anywhere. It is going to take people like us in this site to figure something out and start doing something about it. Many translations I come across has opnion than the real meaning on many words that is the focus of the verse.
If it is a hard copy of the Qur'an, publishing would be a major venture and require a legitimate endorsement. I am not sure of what sort of control Islam and nations have over teh publishing of Qur'ans? HOWEVER.... it may be a lot more flexible for electronic versions, which may be the way forward.
Wasalam
Daniel
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What do you make of this? http://translationmovement.com
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Sallam Wakas,
I am lost... what is it again? A group of people who want to translate the Quran according to how people read it?
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What do you make of this? http://translationmovement.com
Based on what they say with the link to their project at http://www.studyquran.co.uk/ , it is very impressive. In fact, I would be surprised if Br. Joseph has never heard of them with their approach to the Qur'an, and it seems their project "Project Lane's Lexicon (now complete)" is the same that Br. Joseph often refers to if I am not mistaken.
If their quality of work is as they say it is, I would love to know a) if they have published hard copies b) If they can publish in other major languages such as Indonesian.
Wasalam
Daniel
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Salaam Danial,
Is it connected with Dr. Rashid Khalifa who speaks about the number 19?
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What do you make of this? http://translationmovement.com
Salaam br. Wakas. don't take me wrong, but I often note you giving links to works that are your own or you have a part in but dont make it clear that its yours. Why don't you just come out with it and say its yours? It would be very helpful .....For example, I know the link you gave Abbsrayray is your work / site
www.Quran434.com ... but why not just say it like here is my interpretation etc etc? Also br Daniel mentioned the linkg with the studyquran site but then why not say that http://www.studyquran.co.uk/ is something you have worked with too for example ...
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7717.0
Why not just be clear and say .. here is my interpretation and my views, rather than make it appear like its an external study? After all, these projects are very noble projects mashallah. Just say its your work or you have input in the work pls next time. it just makes things clearer for everybody and those that don't know your work and so then know where you are coming from.
However I do like root list site very very much .....really useful and a great project but as far as translation goes, there will always be dispute over exact meaning. thanks Saba :) 8)
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If their quality of work is as they say it is, I would love to know a) if they have published hard copies b) If they can publish in other major languages such as Indonesian.
Salaam br. Daniel. I think a lot if not all the work is sourced from a concordance from Hanna Kassis and Edward Lanes lexicons which are already published. I think the root list also links to the excellent qur'an corpus site. http://corpus.quran.com/ The corpus site is something that its part of university project I think. I know br. Joseph uses Edward Lanes Lexicon bec. of consistency etc but i think he mentioned he uses many other dictionaries too including arabic ones, such as he shares in the link below and also can translate directly from the arabic.
http://quransmessage.com/articles/thobe-jilbab%20FM3.htm
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What do you make of this? http://translationmovement.com
Salaam br. Wakas. don't take me wrong, but I often note you giving links to works that are your own or you have a part in but dont make it clear that its yours.
Ahhh... I am obviously am not in the loop as much as others. (-: Br. Wakas,
a(when will this Qur'an translation be completed,
b)who is the publisher, (or is it only E version?)
c) Is this group open to doing translations in other major languages?
Wasalam
Daniel
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Salaam br. Wakas. Also another question. Isn't the reformist translation from the free-minds groups? Isn't that something that Edip Yuksel has translated (as part of the 19 group) with someone else? I see that 2 verses have been omitted from this translation (9-128/129). I know Rashad Khalifa and Edip were part of the same submitter group once. How much influence does the 19 Edip Yusel / rashad khalifa (submitter) translation have on this movement you are referring to please? Thanks Saba
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Salaam,
I am confused... So brother Wakas wants to translate the Quran and include the bible in it? or get verses out of the bible to include in the Quran to make more of an understanding of the Quran that can not be translated? I saw something about that Allah shaped the earth in a egg form. Astagfer Allah that is a distortion of Allah's words, He would have said round if He wanted to, He does not need someone to speak or correct His verses to make it up to date on what they think it should say. THIS ANGERS ME VERY VERY MUCH! Brother Wakas, if you understand Arabic, Haram Aliak, Ittaqillah!!!!
Freeminds.org? No disrespect but Alhumduillah I know my deen and that I need to pray 5x a day. Not one living soul on the planet can ever convince me the Quran says differently about prayer than the Five Allah mentions in the Quran. I never go off reading the Quran as my only source, I listen to it, research it and ponder on it til my eyes are ready to pop out. And only than when I am convinced what the verse says I accept it.
I do follow Quran as my only source and never will I change my thinking on that. I do that because Allah commands me to in the Quran. If there was a verse in there that tells me to also follow his previous scriptures, I would have no problem doing that, but He doesn't that is why I am adamant on following the Quran ONLY. I am only Obeying and will never have wiggle room to justify any other option. For me I take my commands from Allah very seriously once the verse is clear to me, I rather die than disobey my Creator. I also REFUSE to interpret meanings to justify my needs and wants, I refuse for someone to tell me I have it wrong without presenting the proof and I say on how the Quran has it. This is the only site I have ever come across that does that. I mean ONLY.
I will never distort Allah's verses to make others happy or to justify how I want to live now that I know the truth about Islam. I never believed in the Hadith nor followed it being raised in a Sunni upbringing. But it will never ever will I start distorting my Creators words to liberate myself and fit in with society. I will NEVER be ashamed of being a Muslim and a mu'mina. I consider myself extremely lucky that I follow Islam the way Allah says to in the Holy Quran.
Many sites, and I will say freeminds.org has many misleading stuff on Islam and I have seen distortion and mistranslation of Allah's words which angers me more than anything. People in general do not realize not a person will help them when they face Allah and this is said to us in the Quran. Allah asks us to pray 5x a day, it takes me less than 15 minutes including wadu adding all the time together, I can not give Him that?
I like Dr. Khalifa for his efforts but distorting Allah's Quran to fit a number just does not go well for having people who put their trust in Allah and what He says that He protected the Quran from corruption of any kind. Who am I going to believe, my Creator or a man who says he met the prophets in Heaven when Allah descended him one night?
I even emailed the site and received a shocking reply that I am to follow and believe what the messenger, i.e, Dr. Rashid Khalifa, interpreted the verses in English and not to question his interpretation. We are to believe what he said in the meaning of the translation. Yeah OK, I am going to define Allah and my absolute knowledge about a particular verse and follow like a sheep? I will pass...
HasbunAllahi Wani'mal wakeel
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Salaam,
I am confused... So brother Wakas wants to translate the Quran and include the bible in it? or get verses out of the bible to include in the Quran to make more of an understanding of the Quran that can not be translated? I saw something about that Allah shaped the earth in a egg form. Astagfer Allah that is a distortion of Allah's words, He would have said round if He wanted to, He does not need someone to speak or correct His verses to make it up to date on what they think it should say. THIS ANGERS ME VERY VERY MUCH! Brother Wakas, if you understand Arabic, Haram Aliak, Ittaqillah!!!!
Freeminds.org? No disrespect but Alhumduillah I know my deen and that I need to pray 5x a day. Not one living soul on the planet can ever convince me the Quran says differently about prayer than the Five Allah mentions in the Quran. I never go off reading the Quran as my only source, I listen to it, research it and ponder on it til my eyes are ready to pop out. And only than when I am convinced what the verse says I accept it.
Salaam Abbsrayray,
Br. Wakas does nto believe in 5 prayers. I think he believes in only 2 and he has debated this topic numerous times on free-minds and directly with br. Joseph (who believes in 5 prayers). The debate with br. Joseph is here:
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=477.msg1501#msg1501
On the free-minds, he is constantly debating this topic and also puts out challenges like here: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily - http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606088.0
He also debates the topic of 'SJD' a lot ..prostration and has his own meaning of what Masjid is which is also debated quite hotly on the free-minds forum.
I think it is sad and doesn't help us as quran followers when people are debating major base things of our religion such as the number of prayers or even if they exist.....can u imagine what kind of impression that would give to Sunni's and Shia's when they look at us and all this bickering ... they will say .. look !!! they can't even decide on the prayers ... hey I'm better being a traditionalist!!! .. anyway.. thought I'd share ..
Also.. if u don't mind me asking... where are you from and are you a fellow sis? I love your passion... Saba 8) :)
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peace all,
Abbsrayray,
translationmovement.com is an idea I have that may or may not go ahead. It entirely depends if the foundation is laid, hence it points to project root list. "ETA" means "estimated time (of) arrival". An accurate translation requires access to accurate tools, hence this approach. If it does go ahead, it would be a group effort: the larger the group the better. It would likely utilise a robust and verifiable methodology stated from the outset.
At the present time my preference is to provide tools/resources so that others can improve the accuracy of their Quranic studies. If a translation comes out of it, great, but if not, no big deal.
Also, you seem to confuse sites. For example, when you say you received a reply and they told you to follow Rashad Khalifa etc, what site are you referring to?
Daniel,
As said on the site, if it goes ahead it would be in English. It would be published online. It may be published in print, it may not.
Saba,
To me, whom the author is, is irrelevant, hence why I sometimes do not mention it. If someone asks, and it happens to be my work, I have no issue saying it is.
I believe the Reformist Quran Translation (RQT) is based somewhat on the free-minds.org translation. The authors of RQT are stated clearly on book sites that sell it. Edip Yuksel has no say in translationmovement (it's not even something to have a say in, at the moment, as it is not even begun) however that does not mean he will not have a say in the future, if it went ahead. The reason I linked to it was to get feedback on the idea/concept.
With regard to my views and discussions on free-minds, I think you exaggerated/misrepresented my position somewhat, but it is good you posted a link so others can read and make up their own minds.
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Salaam Saba,
VERY SAD indeed people misinterpiting the Allahs beautiful words and spreading lies against our Creator. This is only leading people astry, but again if people want to behave like sheep than so be it. How clear can the Quran get? No one truely has access to the meaning nor understanding unless Allah grants them that, as Allah clearly repeats in His Holy Quran. I think this group will benifit going to Saudi Arabia and educating them about no hadith first and teaching the Talaban extremist... ;D ;D ;D ;D
I am American, born and raised, and Live in the U.S. Both my Parents are Palestinian. I was brought up in a Sunni Muslim upbrining. Except there was no covering the head, and we had freedom to an extent, well as long as my dad did not find out that is. My mom was not your typical traditional muslim, I deeply feel she really never believed in the Hadith or what it says in there because I and some of my siblings broke every single rule that was in there and she just yelled at us and let it go.
I love Allah more than my own soul and I will never back down from correcting people when they are misrepresenting the Truth that is in front of their eyes. I know what Allah is capiable of and I fear him to the CORE! He has done me many favors and fulfilled my du'a that if I even put them down here, people will think I have gone delusional. (p.s Ismail, Cancer is cured by Allah even without ANY TREATMENT or URINE) Subhanahu
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In his preface to QXP (Quran as it explains itself, Dr. Shabbir writes:
The author of the Qur’an is none but Almighty God. Before the reader is an
English rendition of the Glorious Book by Shabbir Ahmed (1947 to ?) an
ordinary servant of God.
The work, although close to translation, is more of an understanding from
within the Qur’an itself. This Divine Writ calls itself An-Noor (the Light) and
light needs no extrinsic sources to show itself. Therefore, I have based my
presentation on two principles:
1. Focusing on the language in which the Qur’an was revealed.
2. Making use of Tasreef, that is, how the Qur’an repeats its messages from
very diverse vantage points.
A diligent study of the Book using Tasreef helps us look at the Qur’an in its
Big Picture, and this method gives us a phenomenal advantage toward its
understanding.
I have rendered the terms and linguistics of the Qur’an using the Quraish
(Quresh) dialect of Makkah since it is the Arabic dialect in which the Qur’an
was revealed to the exalted Muhammad bin Abdullah, the Final Prophet,
Messenger and Apostle of God. [570-632 CE]
19:97 And only to this end We have made this (Qur’an) easy to understand in
your own tongue (O Prophet). That you might convey thereby glad news to the
righteous and warn people given to futile disputation.
Being a young member of the Saudi royal medical staff, I had the good fortune
of learning the Quraish dialect in the 1970s under the auspices of King Faisal
bin Abdul Aziz and King Khalid bin Abdul Aziz of Saudi Arabia. I was blessed
with the opportunity to learn Islamic theology in the University of Madinah
after having learnt the subject under the guidance of the celebrated names of
Qari Baqaullah and ‘Maulana’ Ehtishamul Haq Thanwi in Karachi during my
college days in the 1960s.
In addition, the opportunity to socialize with the Bedouins was certainly a
great advantage since even today they frequently speak the Quraish dialect.
Learning the dialect, by no means, amounts to absorbing the Saudi theology.
Some of the well-known western scholars who learned Arabic by socializing
with the Bedouins:
In the 1810s - The Swiss Muslim traveler-explorer, Johann Ludwig Burckhardt
(Sheikh Ibrahim bin Abdullah 1784-1817). ..............
more at:
.........http://drshabbir.com/library/QXP200808iv.pdf
Would appreciate comments from those who know the language and the challenges it poses to translators. Thanks.
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Saba,
To me, whom the author is, is irrelevant, hence why I sometimes do not mention it. If someone asks, and it happens to be my work, I have no issue saying it is.
I believe the Reformist Quran Translation (RQT) is based somewhat on the free-minds.org translation. The authors of RQT are stated clearly on book sites that sell it. Edip Yuksel has no say in translationmovement (it's not even something to have a say in, at the moment, as it is not even begun) however that does not mean he will not have a say in the future, if it went ahead. The reason I linked to it was to get feedback on the idea/concept.
With regard to my views and discussions on free-minds, I think you exaggerated/misrepresented my position somewhat, but it is good you posted a link so others can read and make up their own minds.
salaam br. wakas ... thank u for replying ;D .. Ok .. I have an honest q ...a translation movement that cannot decide what 'salat' means, how do you think it will do? ...... will it not fail on the first hurdle? .....Saba
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Salaam Saba,
VERY SAD indeed people misinterpiting the Allahs beautiful words and spreading lies against our Creator. This is only leading people astry, but again if people want to behave like sheep than so be it. How clear can the Quran get? No one truely has access to the meaning nor understanding unless Allah grants them that, as Allah clearly repeats in His Holy Quran. I think this group will benifit going to Saudi Arabia and educating them about no hadith first and teaching the Talaban extremist... ;D ;D ;D ;D
I am American, born and raised, and Live in the U.S. Both my Parents are Palestinian. I was brought up in a Sunni Muslim upbrining. Except there was no covering the head, and we had freedom to an extent, well as long as my dad did not find out that is. My mom was not your typical traditional muslim, I deeply feel she really never believed in the Hadith or what it says in there because I and some of my siblings broke every single rule that was in there and she just yelled at us and let it go.
I love Allah more than my own soul and I will never back down from correcting people when they are misrepresenting the Truth that is in front of their eyes. I know what Allah is capiable of and I fear him to the CORE! He has done me many favors and fulfilled my du'a that if I even put them down here, people will think I have gone delusional. (p.s Ismail, Cancer is cured by Allah even without ANY TREATMENT or URINE) Subhanahu
Salaams Abbsrayray ... thanks for sharing sis ;D 8)
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In his preface to QXP (Quran as it explains itself, Dr. Shabbir writes:
The author of the Qur’an is none but Almighty God. Before the reader is an
English rendition of the Glorious Book by Shabbir Ahmed (1947 to ?) an
ordinary servant of God.
The work, although close to translation, is more of an understanding from
within the Qur’an itself. This Divine Writ calls itself An-Noor (the Light) and
light needs no extrinsic sources to show itself. Therefore, I have based my
presentation on two principles:
1. Focusing on the language in which the Qur’an was revealed.
2. Making use of Tasreef, that is, how the Qur’an repeats its messages from
very diverse vantage points.
A diligent study of the Book using Tasreef helps us look at the Qur’an in its
Big Picture, and this method gives us a phenomenal advantage toward its
understanding.
I have rendered the terms and linguistics of the Qur’an using the Quraish
(Quresh) dialect of Makkah since it is the Arabic dialect in which the Qur’an
was revealed to the exalted Muhammad bin Abdullah, the Final Prophet,
Messenger and Apostle of God. [570-632 CE]
19:97 And only to this end We have made this (Qur’an) easy to understand in
your own tongue (O Prophet). That you might convey thereby glad news to the
righteous and warn people given to futile disputation.
Being a young member of the Saudi royal medical staff, I had the good fortune
of learning the Quraish dialect in the 1970s under the auspices of King Faisal
bin Abdul Aziz and King Khalid bin Abdul Aziz of Saudi Arabia. I was blessed
with the opportunity to learn Islamic theology in the University of Madinah
after having learnt the subject under the guidance of the celebrated names of
Qari Baqaullah and ‘Maulana’ Ehtishamul Haq Thanwi in Karachi during my
college days in the 1960s.
In addition, the opportunity to socialize with the Bedouins was certainly a
great advantage since even today they frequently speak the Quraish dialect.
Learning the dialect, by no means, amounts to absorbing the Saudi theology.
Some of the well-known western scholars who learned Arabic by socializing
with the Bedouins:
In the 1810s - The Swiss Muslim traveler-explorer, Johann Ludwig Burckhardt
(Sheikh Ibrahim bin Abdullah 1784-1817). ..............
more at:
.........http://drshabbir.com/library/QXP200808iv.pdf
Would appreciate comments from those who know the language and the challenges it poses to translators. Thanks.
Salaaam br. Mubashir .. i can't imagine why you out of all people would share QXP like this, when i would expect u to know how Dr. shabbir interprets and misinterprets the qur'an in my view .....
With regarding Tasfreeful ayaat.. .. i agree with br. Joseph's view on this and the QXP where he says ...
For example, albeit I agree with Dr. Shabbir's understanding of the concept, I with respect do not concur with many of his renditions in the QXP which he does in the name of 'tasreef al-ayat', yet which I personally find extremely outlandish. Students of the Quran can only give their perspective and allow the readers to discern.
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=393.msg1178;topicseen#msg1178
Personally I don't trust Dr Shabbir ... or his academic work .. For example, I shared my view here ...
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=949.0
Also ...Dr Shabbir's academic misrepresentation is shared here ...when he spoke about Imam Razi's horrible confession ..
http://quransmessage.com/expose/dr-shabbir-razi%20FM3.htm
Saba ;D
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w/salaam sister saba,
salaam br. wakas ... thank u for replying ;D .. Ok .. I have an honest q ...a translation movement that cannot decide what 'salat' means, how do you think it will do? ...... will it not fail on the first hurdle? .....Saba
Assuming it cannot decide on what a word means, it would include notes that discuss the various options.
Personally, I do not think there would be much variance on the word "salat". For example, it is clear from Quranic and Classical Arabic dictionary usage it has a core meaning of: go/turn towards in a close/positive manner, commonly between two (or more) entities. Depending on context and the entities involved, this underlying meaning can become specific, e.g. blessing, prayer, eulogy, oration, supplication.
Once this is explained, a meaning would be chosen for the translation that tries to best encompass such a word. The goal of such a translation is to empower the individual with accurate information, allowing the reader to weigh and consider the options, then make an informed decision.
Do you have an objection?
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w/salaam sister saba,
salaam br. wakas ... thank u for replying ;D .. Ok .. I have an honest q ...a translation movement that cannot decide what 'salat' means, how do you think it will do? ...... will it not fail on the first hurdle? .....Saba
Assuming it cannot decide on what a word means, it would include notes that discuss the various options.
Personally, I do not think there would be much variance on the word "salat". For example, it is clear from Quranic and Classical Arabic dictionary usage it has a core meaning of: go/turn towards in a close/positive manner, commonly between two (or more) entities. Depending on context and the entities involved, this underlying meaning can become specific, e.g. blessing, prayer, eulogy, oration, supplication.
Once this is explained, a meaning would be chosen for the translation that tries to best encompass such a word. The goal of such a translation is to empower the individual with accurate information, allowing the reader to weigh and consider the options, then make an informed decision.
Do you have an objection?
Interesting .. so like footnotes you mean.???.. Would you then do the same with verses 9:128-29 where you would mention...there are groups such as 19 group / submitters that believe these verses are not from the Quran - inspired by satan ... i.e. include more and more footnotes? If you just want a translation and discussion on the words what is wrong with what quran corpus is already doing? It allows for discussions on some words ..but tries to stay a word / word translation because it is in the footnotes that all sorts of problems occur. also wouldn't a meaning for salaat = go/turn towards in a close/positive manner not confuse ppl more? i mean they will then start to think ..hmm what does it mean here ???.. does it mean blessing, prayer, eulogy, oration, supplication??? Will this not get more confusing??? I find the more choices you give of a word , the more the fluid nature of the text is lost and it gets more difficult to read. Also I do think that if you are going to translate a book in english you need people that can speak english natively or well and understand the book rather than mainly through dictionaries and tools...It is the pick and choose - cherry picking from dictionaries to suit your own views that causes a lot of the problems with such qur'anist groups. what do u think>?
I mean look at the carnage that took place here between you and br. Farouk Peru .. it turned into a slanging match.
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=601.msg2104#msg2104
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Salaam Mubashir,
One studying the Quraish really does not give them the knowledge on the Quran nor the understanding. Heck a chinese speaking person can understand the Quran with no Arabic backround. It all comes down to how determined is one to chase and accept the truth?? When Allah says , It is complete and clear and easy to understand, it means just that... How clear does our creator needs to be? All this Qurasih is just another made up notion/excuse to make people believe why the Quran is complicated and not able to be understood and the reason they wrote a book $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ is to help others.
I understand what Allah is saying when I listen to in Arabic, even memorized 14 surats by listening to the Quran and not reading it. Even words that I do not recognize in Arabic, and do now. I research them and study the Quran eventually Allah leads me to the truth of the meaning. It is all guidance from Allah. Anyone who says the Quran does not say Salat is 5x a day or the reason behind it is to just remember Allah, you think I would trust or even give my time to reading their book on the Quran? Alhumduillah I without doubt am guided in the right path and refuse to have others tell me what Allah says in the Quran. Anyone can achieve being guided to the light if they deeply want it and as Allah to guide them. As for me, when the author of any Quran book for translation or talks about Islam when it contradicts what Allah says, lose all creditability and should never be trusted. As Allah says in the Quran, we are to be the judge of what He says in there and look for mistakes or contradictions, He challenges us to use our intellect meaning, we will not find any, because no one will believe in it or follow it if there was.
As for SA, and other Arab/Muslim countries, The kings and monarchy system need to go. All these Islamic want-A-be Mohammed's need to be launched up to Mars and deserted there. This world will be a more peaceful world and one can practice Islam in their country as Allah intended without oppression and discrimination.
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One studying the Quraish really does not give them the knowledge on the Quran nor the understanding.
I agree with you sis. But imho ... all this talk of quraish is all a smokescreen. What quraish??? they haven't existed for upteen centuries!!! they were a particular tribe at the time the qur'an was revealed and Muhammad (saw) spoke in that dialect... And all this talk of dr. shabbir spending time in the desert and all to learn quraishi arabic ... have people gone mad? where are the quraish in the deserts now? and I bet you (not literally) my bottom dollar that NOT ONE.. not ONE of the those desert arabs that dr shabbir often refers to in his wild claims would understand salat the way he does as some form of keeping up divine commandments and not ritiual namaz/ He has so much prb with ritual prayers that you often see him talking against it and then sends out mixed messages imho. Saba
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Interesting .. so like footnotes you mean.???.. Would you then do the same with verses 9:128-29 where you would mention...there are groups such as 19 group / submitters that believe these verses are not from the Quran - inspired by satan ... i.e. include more and more footnotes?
Yes, footnotes. I cannot say what verses would and would not have footnotes.
If you just want a translation and discussion on the words what is wrong with what quran corpus is already doing? It allows for discussions on some words ..but tries to stay a word / word translation because it is in the footnotes that all sorts of problems occur.
If you mean corpus.quran.com then that is not a translation. It's primary focus is clearly stated on its homepage, quote: Welcome to the Quranic Arabic Corpus, an annotated linguistic resource which shows the Arabic grammar, syntax and morphology for each word in the Holy Quran. The corpus provides three levels of analysis: morphological annotation, a syntactic treebank and a semantic ontology.
also wouldn't a meaning for salaat = go/turn towards in a close/positive manner not confuse ppl more? i mean they will then start to think ..hmm what does it mean here ???.. does it mean blessing, prayer, eulogy, oration, supplication??? Will this not get more confusing???
If you feel it would be more confusing, that is you. I do not.
It is the pick and choose - cherry picking from dictionaries to suit your own views that causes a lot of the problems with such qur'anist groups. what do u think>?
I agree. As I said, a robust and verifiable methodology would be stated from the outset. You will note that no Quran translation exists that has done this - to my knowledge. This is a critical flaw in my view.
Similarly, no Traditional scholar, to my knowledge, has studied the large corpus of Traditional Ahadith applying a robust, verifiable methodology consistently to this content. You may wish to ask yourself why that is and ponder upon 4:82.
I mean look at the carnage that took place here between you and br. Farouk Peru .. it turned into a slanging match.
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=601.msg2104#msg2104
I dont see the relevance. If your point is elements of the methodology will be disputed, then of course it will. It is impossible to agree upon every single thing with everyone. However, what one can do is state a clear methodology (once decided on), helping readers to weigh and consider a translation.
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Salaam Saba,
I think he is referring to Bedouin Arabs when he says he spent time with them in the desert. They speak Arabic, we understood them when we went on an adventure to Palestine and in the desert in Jordan to see how they live.
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Salaam Saba,
I think he is referring to Bedouin Arabs when he says he spent time with them in the desert. They speak Arabic, we understood them when we went on an adventure to Palestine and in the desert in Jordan to see how they live.
Salaam Abbsrayray :).... I would have had more respect for him if he just said exactly what you said .. but he says about himself ...:
"In addition, the opportunity to socialize with the Bedouins was certainly a great advantage since even today they frequently speak the Quraish dialect."
http://drshabbir.com/library/QXP200808iv.pdf
I mean I agree Bedouins speak Arabic .... but how does anyone know they speak the exact quraishi dialect from 1400 years ago???? I'm sure even amongst the desert people, words and expressions change over time. Isn't there a common Arabic that all arabic speaking nations use? but no one claims it is quraishi right?? pls correct me if Im srong sis as you will have more understanding of spoken arabic than me.... Saba :)
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Thanks for commenting Sisters!
No scholar is perfect and Dr Shabbir has his share of strengths and weakness. With respect to Salat, if I have understood him correctly, he says it covers the ritual prayer but encompasses a much wider concept.
Personally, when reading the Quran, I visit the following website which has about 40 translations running together. If one does not make sense to me or appears contradictory or influenced by hadith (or Shaan e Nuzool) stories, I have an option to read others.
www.islamawakened.com
I find it quite useful and highly recommend to those of us who do not speak the language and even those who do.
Peace!
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No scholar is perfect and Dr Shabbir has his share of strengths and weakness. With respect to Salat, if I have understood him correctly, he says it covers the ritual prayer but encompasses a much wider concept.
Oh come on br. Mubashir!!! you out of all ppl br Mubashir??? I have seen you almost banging your head against those who reject namaz on the ourbeacon forum and dr shabbir never comes to your rescue, instead gives mixed messages galore... I am sure you know very well how many mixed messaged dr shabbir gives out on namaz... he has even gone so far as to deny that his guru Ghulam Parwez ever read namaz and even questions fasting!!!
http://www.ourbeacon.com/cgi-bin/bbs60x/webbbs_config.pl/page/1/md/read/id/314123119192345
I mean can you believe this ...."A queer video: You might have seen Allama G.A.P. praying FOUR rak'ats completed in a brief HALF minute video. It was made to obviate a life threat on him in 1984."
I can dig out many threads where dr shabbir has questioned ritual prayer and namaz.. really brother,,, do u really need me to do this??pls br Mubashir ...lets be honest here and stop defending the indefensible .I really didn't expect this from you... Salaam Saba
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Here is one thread where Dr Shabbir is attacking ritual prayer ...
http://www.ourbeacon.com/cgi-bin/bbs60x/webbbs_config.pl/md/read/id/314123119153857
br Mubashir do you really need me to dig out all the threads in which you have been a major part to show you how dr shabbir deals with those that almost attacked you for your views.???... did dr. shabbir ever come to your rescue???
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Salaam Saba,
It is no different as for instance American English and the English in the UK.
Here is a Video of them doing their poems and talking. I understand ever single word they are saying. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cd3g3o2Wq0Y
Now if Dr. Shabbir went to learn this language...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOdI2lK_PDg ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I have no idea. This is not talking nor Arabic. omg.. I can not stop laughing!!!
@2:19, you hear a guy saying "rest, you are tired, rest" that is the same words any araboc speaking person would use. ;D after that, the ritual continues. Now, you be the judge, this is what happened around 1400 years ago. Can you see our Prophet doing this? LMAO!! NO. Does Dr. Shabbir speak Aarabic? I thought just Urdu?
When Allah says in many verses the Quran was sent in Arabic
I will tell you where they all get this idea... Hadith, without doubt, him himself trashing it, that is where Shabbir and many others get their idea. Muslim :: Book 4 : Hadith 1782 says "The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) then said: Thus was it sent down. He then told me to recite and I recited it, and he said: Thus was it sent down. The Qur'an was sent down in seven dialects. So recite what seems easy therefrom."
"Bukhari :: Book 6 :: Volume 61 :: Hadith 510
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Said bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.' (33.23)"
Here is what Allah says 14:4, 42:7, 41: and 12:2 Allah says the Quran is in Arabic so we can understand... Now one who believes in Allah and puts their trust in Him, or do we believe what Allah is telling his ummah who He already knows what they will be able to do in the future before the Quran even came down or is one to believe what some guy is telling them about Arab people talking in the desert the language dialect on the time of the prophet? When the Quran is reciting, it is the same language I understand when a person is speaking Arabic to me. I may not know all the words, but Arabic is Arabic just different accents like for instance, people living in the southern States have a different accent than people living in the northern or eastern States.
His motive seems very deceptive and dishonest in my opinion because how can a person who does not even acknowledge Allah requires us to pray 5x a day as mentioned be trusted about the desert Arabs?
Saudi Arabian people for instance, they have a slight different way how words sound in Arabic, it is usually how one pronounces the word that makes it different. As for me, one right away knows I am Palestinian when I talk, we have a way of stretching the words.. example.. yaamma, others.. yama, i.e mom
Saudi and Egyptians might say Waliti which means mom but if I wanted to break it down it means person who gave birth to me.
It is all a money making business. Anyone who wants to write the Quran will go with what the Quran says in Allah's own words. People say well he changed his mind what he believes on this and that and regrets doing this and that.. I do not know about others, that just tells me how that persons thinking and knowledge is especially playing and distorting Allah's words.. They just crucified themselves with Allah as far as I am concerned..
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Thank you sis 8) :) That was very helpful. Also I don't know where this impression comes from that all the arabs were nomad dwellers living from one place to other travelling in camels all day long. I mean, the qur'an even mentions the two great cities and they even asked about the prophet ...why was a great man not sent to the two cities? This does not mean that the quraish were beduoins either.. they may just have been city dwellers, like mentioned here ----> http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=538
thanks again for your response .....Ma'salaam!!!!
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Shalom / Peace. This is a good opinion on translations which I like. http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=383
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Salam Sis Saba.
I get your point about Dr Shabbir leaning more towards Salat the system than Salat the prayer. I am basing my opinion after reading Dr Shabbir's comments such as:
"...Ritual prayer or Namaaz was a small part of Aqamatis-Salaat, i.e. establishing the System that facilitates the following of Divine Commands.
• The ritual prayer was always congregational.
• Women and men both formed this congregation, women on the right side of men.
• The frequency and timing of the congregations were determined by the State as needed. It was never fixed as five times a day ritual.
• Namaaz was performed with the Emir (governor) reciting some verses from the Qur’an relevant to the situation at hand as the congregation listened to him. The Emir would recite a few verses in the standing position as did the congregation behind him.
• Masjid was not a temple of worship. It was the Assembly, the School, the Municipality, the Parliament and the Government House. So, after that recitation, the leader and people would discuss real issues about the community, entertain questions, present bills, announce decisions of the Shura (Counsel) and the Assembly would legislate. People came up with their ideas addressing the problems facing the community and for betterment of the society. Masjid was also the place where the leaders were elected..."
My point was that he does not completely reject Salat the prayer. BTW Parwez always prayed and I find that Dr Shabbir believes that was not the case, quite odd. Br Joseph has posted an Urdu video where Parwez explains his take on Namaz.
Yes, I have had several disagreements with other members of ourbeacon forum over this issue but at the end I have been allowed to agree to disagree! Needless to say there are those who do agree with me.
All the best ! :)
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Thanks br Mubashir :) 8) 8)
PS: I remember the video that was shared:
Dear brother Haji,
As-salam alaykum
I would like to share a couple of verses for your consideration:
Verse 5:106 says that: 'Detain both of them 'after the salaat' (ba'di -l-salaat).
If 'salaat' just meant the establishment of a Divine system with a view to implement it, how would this verse be reconciled with such a concept considering that the believers were already in a state of establishing God's laws and the context is specific and 'immediate' to someone's demise?
Furthermore, in verse 62:10, the Quran says "Then when the salaat is concluded, finished or ended' (qudiyati).
How can such a Divine System of laws that one is expected to uphold 24x7 end or conclude?
Finally, with regards Ghulam Parwez's views on ritual prayer and what he really believed, I share with you a link to his video in which you can hear his views directly from his own mouth. I trust this will remove any ambiguity. This video has been shared with me by trusted Urdu speaking sources who have translated this for me independently and I am rest assured that this will provide you unequivocal evidence to satisfy your request, God willing.
BELIEFS OF ALLAMA GHULAM AHMAD PARWEZ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGgLSGnbhCk&sns=em
Kind regards,
Joseph.
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1030.msg4133#msg4133
I mean I don't know how much br Joseph could understand from that video even though he says he had it translated, but I can tell you that I speak fluent Urdu and I can also tell you this....that there is absolutely no doubt from Ghulam Parwez's own mouth that he believed in the ritual prayer.
So Dr. Shabbir is not just being odd... IMHO he is being dishonest and disingenuous!!! How can you deny that video?????? If he can change the words of the teacher he looks up to.. what do you think will be happening in the QXP translation????
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Salaam Saba,
They have no choice but to say beduoins because til now some still have tents set up in the desert. People assume Arab=Camel=desert... so who is left that some still having dwellings in some deserts? Buddings. If things are repeated and spoken about over and over like the media, one starts to believe what the person is saying is true. People adapt to different accents in their tonuge language if they are around an enviroment that does Put it this way... If it is not mentioned in the Quran, It ain't True! Some just want to confuse everyone.
Salaam
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Salaam All
Subhanna Allah, This mans voice reciting the Quran is nothing but Beautiful, gives me chills.. His voice and style of recitation reminds me of Abul Bassit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jivNz_i9QTU
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Thanks for referring us to Br Joseph's article Duster. He writes:
"...(1) Please do your best to try to learn the language if you can. There is nothing better than accessing the Quran directly for yourself. However, be aware that the Quranic Arabic is not spoken today. It is a classical dialect / language and the vernacular of the Quraish who were a specific people of a specific time. .."
Wonder if that particular dialect is still in existence today in Saudi ?
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Just a quick question to those who enjoy Quran recitations.
Is it permissible to recite the words of our Lord and Master in a singing fashion? Granted the recitation has rhythm to it, but is this even appropriate? This is a serious message of warning and hope and a guide for proper behavior and our relationship to Allah SWT and His Messengers.
If we are working for a company, would we read the rules and regulation of the company in a singing way? How would the owner of the company react?
Just asking, and please don't get upset.
We hold Quran recitation competitions. Don't we need Quran comprehension competitions more then recitation competitions?
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Salaam Mubashir,
"Is it permissible to recite the words of our Lord and Master in a singing fashion? Granted the recitation has rhythm to it, but is this even appropriate? This is a serious message of warning and hope and a guide for proper behavior and our relationship to Allah SWT and His Messengers.
Well Allah says to recite it, I do not think it is a singing, but more of a flow like a Bahir if you will, waves in the sea.
There is not prohibit on reciting it. I think it is the most beautiful thing.
If we are working for a company, would we read the rules and regulation of the company in a singing way? How would the owner of the company react?
Lol, brother, you are funny and I mean that in a good way that you made me laugh. I think there is a HUGE difference.. OMG. LOOOOL... They do too... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkXLPs5Pg_Y
I have never seen anything to say not to recite it in the way it is being recited, I would not call it singing, it is more of a rythem flow. I always thought this is how Allah intended. Amazing how their voice is, MashAllah, not many people can pull it off... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1N_Y3_PMP4
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It is the pick and choose - cherry picking from dictionaries to suit your own views that causes a lot of the problems with such qur'anist groups. what do u think>?
I agree. As I said, a robust and verifiable methodology would be stated from the outset. You will note that no Quran translation exists that has done this - to my knowledge. This is a critical flaw in my view.
Salaam br. Wakas, have you thought maybe why it appears to you that no 'robust and verifiable methodology' exists? Maybe because all existing methodologies that translators have used that seem to them as being robust and verifiable are simply just not robust and verifiable to you. Lets look at it this way ... you write articles on salaat and the meaning of SJD and you then come up with meanings of masjid .. to you these must be robust and verifiable methodologies, ... but that's it you see .. to others they are simply not robust, otherwise why do you not believe in 5 ritual prayers or that masjid is a mosque or a place for worship?? you see. ....there is disagreement with your what you think is your robust methodology. Then you issue challenges .. I have seen it often.. and when people don't respond... you may think that they have no response because they can't refute you, but maybe they just don't have the time or patience to go through pages and pages of your methodology because the end result seems not right to them. There are people on freeminds that have their own qur'an translation webpages but even they don't agree with your robust methodology.... so where is this 'robust and verifiable methodology' going to come from?????' or will it only be robust if it agrees with your definition of robust??? Thanks, Saba
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Wow. This discussion has been active in the last day or so!!
As far as religious practices go, we need to be pragmatic and practical. Muhammad was born in to an environment of the East, with practices around him such as the following link.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=TRLFeldPG3Y
I do not believe Islam as understood by Muhammad was something started that was disconnected from all around it; instead it was the continuation and reflection of the Arab monotheistic groups at the time.
I also do not believe that Muhammad introduced a new long list of do's and don'ts stifling life and creativity. I am not sure if there has been a study on this, but singing not being a part of religious practice may possibly have been an Arab practice, I would be surprised if it was a universal Islamic religious law.
Wasalam
Daniel
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w/salaam sister saba,
I don't think you get it.
Firstly, the methodology will be extracted from Quran of course, similar to this (http://www.quran434.com/study-method.html), but more detailed.
Secondly, the group would only be formed from people who agreed upon the methodology. Even if no-one agreed to the methodology and let's say I did it myself, it doesn't matter, see point below.
Thirdly, the key is it is a stated methodology. No translation exists with a stated robust/detailed and verifiable methodology.
And lastly, the translation would be unique/better for other reasons. Primarily to do with verification, discussion of options etc.
If you know of a Quran translation with a stated methodology, that is Quran-based, robust/detailed and somewhat verifiable, let me know. If you cant cite one, then translationmovement is already ahead of the game by being the first to do so..... if it goes ahead.
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w/salaam sister saba,
I don't think you get it.
Salaaam .....No disrespect br Wakas... but I don't think you get it.....
Firstly, the methodology will be extracted from Quran of course, similar to this (http://www.quran434.com/study-method.html), but more detailed.
Why similar to this? This is your website isn't it? You see my point?? you have already given a methodology in that link that you would expect to follow which is your way of thinking ......
Secondly, the group would only be formed from people who agreed upon the methodology. Even if no-one agreed to the methodology and let's say I did it myself, it doesn't matter, see point below.
Who will be in that group? Free-mind people? 19ers? or traditionalists too? you think they will agree????... or the movement will again be like minded people that agree with your way of critical analysis which you have given the link for above?
Thirdly, the key is it is a stated methodology. No translation exists with a stated robust/detailed and verifiable methodology.
And lastly, the translation would be unique/better for other reasons. Primarily to do with verification, discussion of options etc.
If you know of a Quran translation with a stated methodology, that is Quran-based, robust/detailed and somewhat verifiable, let me know. If you cant cite one, then translationmovement is already ahead of the game by being the first to do so..... if it goes ahead.
Many translators claim that their method is reliable.
Dr. Laleh Bakthiar claims that her translation has "internal consistency and reliability"
http://www.sublimequran.org/
Mazhar Noorani who gives comments on quran.corpus site as well has his own site with a methodology. Many of the times you both don't agree on freeminds..... you can't even agree on number of prayers ... he says 5 you say 2 ....
http://www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/eng%20article.htm
Dr. Shabbir's QXP claims all sorts of things like tasreef al ayat methodology with a shura and a methodology and a QXP which is revised over years and years ....
They all state their methodologies ...to them there methodology is right!!!!
That is what I am saying .. what is reliable methodology to one may not be to another. You just cannot separate an interpretation which is inherently subjective with a methodology. I hope you get my point this time .....Saba ;D 8)
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greetings, Saba ,Wakas,brothers and sisters.
I have spent years looking at these so called " Methodologies". I found most of them wishful thinking .
GOD , in His wisdom and knowledge foresees all these misunderstandings , differences, methodologies, opinions,etc... And clarifies by sending a "messenger".
How clever are we? Do we think we so clever we can find all the explanations of GOD s words by ourselves?
Qoran says the opposite! GOD helps or diverts people from understanding His words.
How do we know that we are being helped or diverted?
Part of GOD s test is to try us by each others doctrines/ways... So that we can be sorted out..The good from the bad.. The sincere from the pretender.. The selfish from the helpful...
After all is GOD not sufficient to teach His words? Is GOD not capable of clarifying our rites/Deen...? How does He do that?
I know most claim they are sincere in their quest, but GOD knows the innermost thoughts of all of us.
I trust that GOD is sorting it out .
May the Lord guide us to His true path.
GOD bless you all.
Peace.
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salaam saba,
I understand subjectivity, and this is blatantly obvious in my previous posts wherein I mention potential disagreement on aspects of methodology.
However, you still miss the point. Not to worry, here is a simple test that will prove/disprove my point. You said:
Many translators claim that their method is reliable.
Dr. Laleh Bakthiar claims that her translation has "internal consistency and reliability"
http://www.sublimequran.org/
Mazhar Noorani who gives comments on quran.corpus site as well has his own site with a methodology. Many of the times you both don't agree on freeminds..... you can't even agree on number of prayers ... he says 5 you say 2 ....
http://www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/eng%20article.htm
Dr. Shabbir's QXP claims all sorts of things like tasreef al ayat methodology with a shura and a methodology and a QXP which is revised over years and years ....
They all state their methodologies ...to them there methodology is right!!!!
I'm sure some do state their methodologies, to various degrees, but I am confident they will be woefully inadequate i.e. lacking details, few Quran references, and little or no mention of how to verify what they write etc.
The test:
Please provide a link/quote to the stated methodology of any translation that in your view is Quran-based, is the most detailed/robust and verifiable that you can find.
Please note, I do not want any one, I want the strongest you can possibly find. One will do.
We can then examine it to see how many Quran references it has, how detailed it is, if it gives instruction on how to verify it etc.
Then we can determine if this simple concept (of having a stated methodology from the outset that is detailed/robust and verifiable) is lacking or not in existing translations.
Looking forward to your reply.
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I'm sure some do state their methodologies, to various degrees, but I am confident they will be woefully inadequate i.e. lacking details, few Quran references, and little or no mention of how to verify what they write etc.
Salaam br. wakas ...my point of giving examples was to show you that lots of translators claim a methodology. You are confident that their methodology is inadequate, others may say the same about yours... its a never ending saga.
The test:
Please provide a link/quote to the stated methodology of any translation that in your view is Quran-based, is the most detailed/robust and verifiable that you can find.
Please note, I do not want any one, I want the strongest you can possibly find. One will do.
Sorry br. Wakas but I'm not going do your homework for you. I gave examples to make my point. I've done that. Thanks Saba :) 8)
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salaam saba,
Sorry br. Wakas but I'm not going do your homework for you. I gave examples to make my point. I've done that. Thanks Saba :) 8)
Thanks for demonstrating my point. As I said several posts ago:
Thirdly, the key is it is a stated methodology. No translation exists with a stated robust/detailed and verifiable methodology.
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Salaam.
The following website may be found interesting:
https://www.academia.edu/5960220/The Quran Translation Discussions in Egypt and the Comprehensibility of Quran Translations
Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.