QM Forum
The Quran => Prophets and Messengers => Topic started by: Saba on February 15, 2014, 04:53:23 AM
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Greetings Saba.
That is how I understand the verse about Joseph. You may understand it differently
The point that I wanted to make is to get into the habit of remembering to say " Bismi allah", "In shaa allah" and " Mashaa allah"...etc. A true believer has GOD on his/her mind 24/7. If he/she errs or forgets then:
Salaams goodlogic. I mean no disrespect, but they way you have interpreted the verse is no small matter.. you said:
-- Joseph-- Slipped up and put his trust on other than GOD.
12:42
He then said to the one to be saved "Remember me at your lord."* Thus, the devil caused him to forget his Lord, and, consequently, he remained in prison a few more years.
You are almost accusing a noble prophet of committing Shirk (ma'zallah)!!! so much so that he was further punished for it and remained in prison for it ...You even wrote your own translation to fit your understanding of accusing a prophet.
As I said, and as far as I know nearly most understand this verse (quranic and traditionalist) it was one of the prisoners that forgot!!!! due to Satan's influence. !!
012.042
YUSUFALI: And of the two, to that one whom he consider about to be saved, he said: "Mention me to thy lord." But Satan made him forget to mention him to his lord: and (Joseph) lingered in prison a few (more) years.
PICKTHAL: And he said unto him of the twain who he knew would be released: Mention me in the presence of thy lord. But Satan caused him to forget to mention it to his lord, so he (Joseph) stayed in prison for some years.
SHAKIR: And he said to him whom he knew would be delivered of the two: Remember me with your lord; but the Shaitan caused him to forget mentioning (it) to his lord, so he remained in the prison a few years.
ASAD: And [thereupon Joseph] said unto the one of the two whom he considered saved: "Mention me unto thy lord [when thou art free]!" But Satan caused him to forget to mention [Joseph] to his lord, and so he remained in prison a few [more] years.
http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/12/42/default.htm
Saba
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Greetings Saba.
Thank you for providing me with another explanation for the verse.
Can I clarify that I said:" That is how I understand the verse".
" Shirk" is different from forgetting then repenting. I have not accused a noble prophet of " Shirk".
All the noble prophets were humans like us. If they erred or forgot then repented, there is no big deal about it.
I also respect their devotion to God and close by saying: Peace upon them all .
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Thanks for replying good logic :)
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Greetings Saba.
Thank you for providing me with another explanation for the verse.
Can I clarify that I said:" That is how I understand the verse".
" Shirk" is different from forgetting then repenting. I have not accused a noble prophet of " Shirk".
All the noble prophets were humans like us. If they erred or forgot then repented, there is no big deal about it.
I also respect their devotion to God and close by saying: Peace upon them all .
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Salaam!!
Dear brother, please, for Allah's sake, think before posting. I do agree with you that you have the liberty to understand a verse as you like. But we will strongly object if you post such blasphemous interpretation in public forums. Based on what authority you claim prophet Yousuf put his trust on others other than Allah? You have no idea what you are posting. I agree with you the prophets were humans like us. But they will never ever put their TRUST on others other than Allah. Even a child should be able to understand it is not prophet Yousuf who forgot. Here is the flow of the discussion in the Quran;
- Prophet Yousuf is requesting his companion in the jail to mention about him to his lord (master) اذْكُرْنِي عِنْدَ رَبِّكَ after his release
- But Satan caused him to forget mentioning it to his lord (master) فَأَنْسَاهُ الشَّيْطَانُ ذِكْرَ رَبِّهِ after his release
- There was a chance the innocence of the prophet yousuf could have been made known and he get released but since his companion forgot to mention about him, he had to spend several more years in the jail.
- Then after many years, the King saw a dream and asked for the interpretation of the dream. At this stage only the man who was saved remembered about Yousuf (this explains who forgot). The Quran is very clear on this point. وَادَّكَرَ بَعْدَ أُمَّةٍ the man thought about Yousuf after a period.
Kindly take care before you post your self made interpretation. You are unknowingly insulting a noble prophet of Allah. I do not think even any of us participating in the discussion will put our trust on others other than Allah though we may commit sometimes lesser sins. May Allah forgive our sins and gather all of us in the Jannat. Please, please...think 100 times before you post comments about Prophets of Allah.
Thanks
Regard,
Optimist
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Greetings Opyimist.
Thank you for your advise.
If you kindly open a new thread, I will give you the reasons from Qoran of why I understand the verse about Joseph as I explained it. And I still do.
I hope you will be patient with me.
In this food thread I will be " off topic".
Thank you once more.
GOD bless
Peace.
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Greetings Opyimist.
Thank you for your advise.
If you kindly open a new thread, I will give you the reasons from Qoran of why I understand the verse about Joseph as I explained it. And I still do.
I hope you will be patient with me.
In this food thread I will be " off topic".
Thank you once more.
GOD bless
Peace.
Sorry! I do not want to make more people read people insulting prophets of Allah.
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Dear good logic,
There is one point I would like to highlight here for you to reconsider your false analysis. As you may have noted, the Quran is using the word "Rabb" three times in 12:41-42.
أَمَّا أَحَدُكُمَا فَيَسْقِي رَبَّهُ خَمْرًا : One of them will pour out wine for his lord (master) to drink
اذْكُرْنِي عِنْدَ رَبِّكَ mention about me before your lord (master)
فَأَنْسَاهُ الشَّيْطَانُ ذِكْرَ رَبِّهِ Satan made him forget to mention about Jospeh before his lord (master)
The meaning of 'Rabb' at all the three places here is not in the sense as GOD who created the world and the human beings (the question pouring wine to GOD does not arise at all), but liked to its root meaning "Sustain", the one who is responsible to sustain and maintain (in the context, his master). You will notice a similar usage of the term in 79:24 when Pharoah claimed he is the Rabb. Pharoah was not claiming he created the universe and his subjects. He was claiming he was the sustainer (who is responsible for providing sustenance to his people).
Take care!!
Regards,
Optimist
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Greetings Optimist.
Thank you for your post.
GOD is in total control of everything. What happened to Joseph was also controlled by GOD.
True believers have a big responsibility to follow/serve GOD Alone ,only God s system will do.( they do not follow man s system!). The higher up the ladder, the bigger the responsibility. They must be extra careful and remember GOD at all times. They must never rely on anyone else or any other system.
In the believers s case " If something bad happened to you ,it is from you,but if something good happened to you it is from GOD"
Also:
8:17
It was not you who killed them; God is the One who killed them. It was not you who threw when you threw; God is the One who threw. But He thus gives the believers a chance to earn a lot of credit. God is Hearer, Omniscient.
فَلَم تَقتُلوهُم وَلٰكِنَّ اللَّهَ قَتَلَهُم وَما رَمَيتَ إِذ رَمَيتَ وَلٰكِنَّ اللَّهَ رَمىٰ وَلِيُبلِىَ المُؤمِنينَ مِنهُ بَلاءً حَسَنًا إِنَّ اللَّهَ سَميعٌ عَليمٌ
6:17
If God touches you with adversity, none can relieve it except He. And if He touches you with a blessing, He is Omnipotent
وَإِن يَمسَسكَ اللَّهُ بِضُرٍّ فَلا كاشِفَ لَهُ إِلّا هُوَ وَإِن يَمسَسكَ بِخَيرٍ فَهُوَ عَلىٰ كُلِّ شَىءٍ قَديرٌ
In the case of Joseph, GOD choose for him to stay few more years in prison. Why?
Just something to reflect on.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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GOD is in total control of everything. What happened to Joseph was also controlled by GOD.
Salaam!
God says Satan made the companion of Jospeh to forget. Are you saying that it is not Satan, it is GOD who made the companion of Joseph to forget??
First you clarify this before I make comments further.
Also, kindly translate for us the followings as per your understanding;
أَمَّا أَحَدُكُمَا فَيَسْقِي رَبَّهُ خَمْرًا
اذْكُرْنِي عِنْدَ رَبِّكَ
فَأَنْسَاهُ الشَّيْطَانُ ذِكْرَ رَبِّهِ
Thanks,
Regards,
Optimist
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Peace Optimist.
Thank you for your post.
I have not said anything about the companion of Joseph.
I also said I hope you will be patient with me.
Please open another thread if you wish to carry on our discussion and I will gladly ,GOD willing, explain my view further using Qoran.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Dear Good Logic, Salaam!
Kindly start (if you want) a new thread focusing on the meaning of the word "Rabb" at the following places.
أَمَّا أَحَدُكُمَا فَيَسْقِي رَبَّهُ خَمْرًا
اذْكُرْنِي عِنْدَ رَبِّكَ
فَأَنْسَاهُ الشَّيْطَانُ ذِكْرَ رَبِّهِ
I have already posted my comments.
Regards,
Optimist
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Peace Optimist.
I understand your explanation.
I agree "Rabb" means lord/master ... When it refers to a human it can also mean a king/ruler...
You are saying all three fit the same " Rabb". I disagree with you on the third one.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Peace Optimist.
I understand your explanation.
I agree "Rabb" means lord/master ... When it refers to a human it can also mean a king/ruler...
You are saying all three fit the same " Rabb". I disagree with you on the third one.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Salaam!
If you agree with me that, in the first two places, the word Rabb fits the meaning as master, you will have to agree with me the word that comes immediately after the second Rabb, فَأَنْسَاهُ (But made him forget), here HU (him) can only refer to the companion of prophet Joseph. So also the HI (him) in Rabbihi(his master). Kindly note, there is no discussion of prophet Joseph‘s master in the preceding verses. Even as per your implicit admission, the word Rabb mentioned two times in the preceding verses refers to the master of the companion of Joseph, not Joseph‘s master. THINK.
Take care please! Assalamu alaikum
Kind regards,
Optimist
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Greetings Optimist.
Thank you for your post.
Or the " Hu" can refer to Joseph, since " Falabitha" after it refer to Joseph?
Why not?
God bless you.
Peace.
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Greetings Optimist.
Thank you moderators for splitting the topics.
We must ponder Qoran . GOD asks that we verify all information.
Optimist, like you, I used to understand the verse about Joseph as you explained. However on further studies/pondering I now understand it differently.
Let me explain the reasons for this:
1- The main question that prompted me to search further was- Why would Joseph stay few more years in prison because someone else forgot to mention him to his lord? It did not seem just/fair?
2- Also GOD looks after the believers in this life and in the hereafter.
This is my current understanding of the verse;
First let me quote the following verses:
18:23
You shall not say that you will do anything in the future,
وَلا تَقولَنَّ لِشَا۟ىءٍ إِنّى فاعِلٌ ذٰلِكَ غَدًا
18:24
without saying, "God willing."* If you forget to do this, you must immediately remember your Lord and say, "May my Lord guide me to do better next time."
إِلّا أَن يَشاءَ اللَّهُ وَاذكُر رَبَّكَ إِذا نَسيتَ وَقُل عَسىٰ أَن يَهدِيَنِ رَبّى لِأَقرَبَ مِن هٰذا رَشَدًا
When Joseph asked the companion to remember him to his master, could he have overlooked his Lord ( GOD) at that moment, or may be not added " God willing"?.....
Throughout Qoran GOD tells us what others do/say...is of no consequence to us, providing we stay loyal and devoted to Him. Also he tells us " If bad happens to the believer it is from himself but if good happens it is from GOD".
GOD also tells us to remember Him day and night . if we slip up we ask for forgiveness and repent.
Joseph would have known all this, he was devoted to GOD Alone. But as humans we all slip up now and then.
A believer accepts everything that happens to him/her, good or bad, and does not put the blame on someone else. He/she knows to complain only to GOD. if bad befalls a believer, they should know it is from them, remembering GOD, asking for forgiveness and repenting is the solution.
GOD does not just tell a story, He teaches us a lesson from the story.
GOD also is consistent throughout Qoran. There are no contradictions in Qoran.
Of course you are entitled to your understanding also brother.
May the Lord teaches us knowledge and patience.
Thank you .
GOD bless .
Peace.
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Dear goodlogic,
From the Quote of 18:23;18:24 i understand that the one who want do something in the Future has to add this formula accepting the power of the allmighty.
So if you ask someone to do a him a favour somewhere in the future ---(your questioning belongs to the present,no Need of formula )
The Person who you ask,answers----------------(the answer will enter in to the future,need of formula )
Or is my understanding wrong
wa salam
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Dear all,
Salam Alaykum.
What do think of Muhsin Khan's translation of this verse:
And he said to the one whom he knew to be saved: "Mention me to your lord (i.e. your king, so as to get me out of the prison)." But Shaitan (Satan) made him forget to mention it to his Lord (or Satan made ((Yoosuf (Joseph)) to forget the remembrance of his Lord (Allah) as to ask for His Help, instead of others). So (Yoosuf (Joseph)) stayed in prison a few (more) years. (12:42)
Regards.
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Let me explain the reasons for this:
1- The main question that prompted me to search further was- Why would Joseph stay few more years in prison because someone else forgot to mention him to his lord? It did not seem just/fair?
Salaam!
Give me sometime to react to your post in detail. Meanwhile, let me ask you.
The prophet Joseph went to jail in the first place based on a false allegation. Does it seem fair for you?
2- Also GOD looks after the believers in this life and in the hereafter.
YOU ARE COMPLETELY WRONG to conclude that the believers will never face any problems in this world and God would be interfering and protecting them at every moment of their life. I can agree with you that in the Hereafter, the believers will be under complete protection of Allah. I can also agree with you the ultimate victory in this world will be for the believers. But to say that the believers will be under complete protection of Allah each and every moment of their life in this world and that they will never have to suffer anything in this world, you must be dreaming to make a conclusion like this. If that is the case, no believer will go to jail in this world. And you will have to classify each everyone in the jail all over the world are non-believers!!
I will be posting further later, Insha Allah
Regards,
Optimist
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Greetings Optimist.
Thank you for your comments.
From what I understand Joseph choose to go to prison. It was his own choice:
12:33
He said, "My Lord, the prison is better than giving in to them. Unless You divert their scheming from me, I may desire them and behave like the ignorant ones."
قالَ رَبِّ السِّجنُ أَحَبُّ إِلَىَّ مِمّا يَدعونَنى إِلَيهِ وَإِلّا تَصرِف عَنّى كَيدَهُنَّ أَصبُ إِلَيهِنَّ وَأَكُن مِنَ الجٰهِلينَ
12:34
His Lord answered his prayer and diverted their scheming from him. He is the Hearer
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فَاستَجابَ لَهُ رَبُّهُ فَصَرَفَ عَنهُ كَيدَهُنَّ إِنَّهُ هُوَ السَّميعُ العَليمُ
Your second point:
22:15
If anyone thinks that God cannot support him in this life and in the Hereafter, let him turn completely to (his Creator in) heaven, and sever (his dependence on anyone else). He will then see that this plan eliminates anything that bothers him.
مَن كانَ يَظُنُّ أَن لَن يَنصُرَهُ اللَّهُ فِى الدُّنيا وَالـٔاخِرَةِ فَليَمدُد بِسَبَبٍ إِلَى السَّماءِ ثُمَّ ليَقطَع فَليَنظُر هَل يُذهِبَنَّ كَيدُهُ ما يَغيظُ
Providing we stay loyal and devoted to GOD alone.
Of course GOD will try us first. Do we think we can just say we believe without going through the trial to bring out our true conviction?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Salam,
Prophet Joseph asks the his Copanion who is going to be free to mention him by the King but he forget the words of Joseph(pbuh) but after sometime he remebered his old fellow in prison"12:45".
And he only remembered Joseph because it was a dream which bottered the king and he knew about his skills of dream Interpretation.It was the free prisoner who had something he should inform the King by leaving the prison but he was so overwelmed by his freedom that he forgot to mention that someone had prophecised his release.
Here is another lack of remembrance by satan Sura 18
"60) But when they reached the Junction, they forgot (about) their Fish, which took its course through the sea (straight) as in a tunnel. (61) When they had passed on (some distance), Moses said to his attendant: "Bring us our early meal; truly we have suffered much fatigue at this (stage of) our journey." (62) He replied: "Sawest thou (what happened) when we betook ourselves to the rock? I did indeed forget (about) the Fish: none but Satan made me forget to tell (you) about it: it took its course through the sea in a marvelous way!" (63) Moses said: "That was what we were "
This is a similar Situation it was the companion who had to inform Moses(pbuh) what happened to the fish but he didn´t only when he was ask to bring the meal he remembered again what happend to the fish.
Im out of this thread
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From what I understand Joseph choose to go to prison.
Let us move forward slowly.
1. Many prophets were killed according to the Quran, did they also desire/ choose to get killed?
2. During the initial stage of Islam many sahabas were killed including many women like Sumayah who was the first martyr and also many Sahabas were killed during many wars.
<<<<<<<<<<Does it seem fair? Why they were allowed to get killed? According to you GOD looks after the believers in this life, in the sense no hurt is caused to them.
Regards,
Optimist
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Greetings Optimist.
You are asking me in general terms. I cannot answer as each individual is different. GOD s trial is done according to GOD s knowledge.
How long is the trial, what kind of trial, when ... is up to GOD.
All I know is once you pass the trial, you attain certainty about GOD and you come under GOD s protection.GOD will redeem you, a total redemption.
Of course ,because you are human, you age and you die or you die when your interim is over.
GOD knows us inside out.How he shapes each individual s life is up to GOD.
57:22
Anything that happens on earth, or to you, has already been recorded, even before the creation. This is easy for God to do.
ما أَصابَ مِن مُصيبَةٍ فِى الأَرضِ وَلا فى أَنفُسِكُم إِلّا فى كِتٰبٍ مِن قَبلِ أَن نَبرَأَها إِنَّ ذٰلِكَ عَلَى اللَّهِ يَسيرٌ
57:23
Thus, you should not grieve over anything you miss, nor be proud of anything He has bestowed upon you....
لِكَيلا تَأسَوا عَلىٰ ما فاتَكُم وَلا تَفرَحوا بِما ءاتىٰكُم وَاللَّهُ لا يُحِبُّ كُلَّ مُختالٍ فَخورٍ
GOD bless.
Peace.
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This is my current understanding of the verse;
First let me quote the following verses:
18:23
You shall not say that you will do anything in the future,
وَلا تَقولَنَّ لِشَا۟ىءٍ إِنّى فاعِلٌ ذٰلِكَ غَدًا
18:24
without saying, "God willing."* If you forget to do this, you must immediately remember your Lord and say, "May my Lord guide me to do better next time."
إِلّا أَن يَشاءَ اللَّهُ وَاذكُر رَبَّكَ إِذا نَسيتَ وَقُل عَسىٰ أَن يَهدِيَنِ رَبّى لِأَقرَبَ مِن هٰذا رَشَدًا
When Joseph asked the companion to remember him to his master, could he have overlooked his Lord ( GOD) at that moment, or may be not added " God willing"?.....
Throughout Qoran GOD tells us what others do/say...is of no consequence to us, providing we stay loyal and devoted to Him. Also he tells us " If bad happens to the believer it is from himself but if good happens it is from GOD".
GOD also tells us to remember Him day and night . if we slip up we ask for forgiveness and repent.
Joseph would have known all this, he was devoted to GOD Alone. But as humans we all slip up now and then.
A believer accepts everything that happens to him/her, good or bad, and does not put the blame on someone else. He/she knows to complain only to GOD. if bad befalls a believer, they should know it is from them, remembering GOD, asking for forgiveness and repenting is the solution.
GOD does not just tell a story, He teaches us a lesson from the story.
GOD also is consistent throughout Qoran. There are no contradictions in Qoran.
Of course you are entitled to your understanding also brother.
May the Lord teaches us knowledge and patience.
Thank you .
GOD bless .
Peace.
Dear Logic,
Really sorry brother, I decided to go through this post to reply. unfortunately I could not understand what you are saying. Can you kindly explain in simple language the following statements;
أَمَّا أَحَدُكُمَا فَيَسْقِي رَبَّهُ خَمْرًا
اذْكُرْنِي عِنْدَ رَبِّكَ
فَأَنْسَاهُ الشَّيْطَانُ ذِكْرَ رَبِّهِ
Thanks, regards
Abdul Samad
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Salaam all,
I think that we should remember that the Quran gives us snapshots of conversations. I am sure prophet Joseph said more things to his two companions in jail. He could have said inshAllah to them at some point. Just because it is not mentioned, does not mean that he did not say it.
Also we should look at the incidents of when other prophets erred and their mention in the Quran. God tells us what their mistakes were, the subsequent realization of them and how they were forgiven because they repented.
Prophet Jonah, David and Soloman are examples. They were chosen by God, but as they are humans, they made mistakes, some that we are told about.
In prophet Joseph's story, we are not told of any mistake he made, as we are with the others, which leads me to think that by staying in jail for longer, it was not a punishment from God for something he did or didn't do. If that was the case, we would have been told about it .
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Dear Logic,
The point I am still unable to understand is this;
How come from this analysis you can conclude that prophet Joseph put his trust on others other than Allah? He was giving an interpretation of a dream, a knowledge he gained from complete trust in Allah. He could not have even interpreted the dream if he had no trust in Allah and His Laws.
Have you not read the preceding verses in which Joseph says;
[Joseph] answered: "Ere there comes unto you the meal which you are [daily] fed, I shall have informed you of the real meaning of your dreams, [so that you might know what is to come] before it comes unto you: for this is [part] of the knowledge which my Sustainer has imparted to me.
If the interpretation made by prophet Joseph had not been materialized, there would have been some justification in your statement prophet Joseph did not put his trust in Allah. However, to imply that prophet Joseph was given some sort of "punishment" by Allah for not trusting Him (which made him to stay some more years)....I believe it is a long stretch..and you know how even Joseph was proving his innocence before the King later. If prophet joseph had done something wrong it could have been mentioned in the Quran clearly prophet Joseph repented. I cannot really understand your logic dear Logic.
Regards,
Optimist
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Greetings Optimist.
Thank you for wanting more clarification.
I also agree with Truth seeker that if Joseph slipped up ,he would have repented and that is the end of that.
However i explained my understanding giving you my reasons.
The problem I see is that we do not accept that messengers err/slip up... why?
They are humans and GOD tells us that they do slip up , make mistakes... like:
27:10
"Throw down your staff." When he saw it moving like a demon, he turned around and fled. "O Moses, do not be afraid. My messengers shall not fear.
وَأَلقِ عَصاكَ فَلَمّا رَءاها تَهتَزُّ كَأَنَّها جانٌّ وَلّىٰ مُدبِرًا وَلَم يُعَقِّب يٰموسىٰ لا تَخَف إِنّى لا يَخافُ لَدَىَّ المُرسَلونَ
27:11
"Except those who commit a "zulm", then substitute righteousness after sinning; I am Forgiving, Most Merciful.
إِلّا مَن ظَلَمَ ثُمَّ بَدَّلَ حُسنًا بَعدَ سوءٍ فَإِنّى غَفورٌ رَحيمٌ
If they did not, GOD would not have said it.
I am going to close my side of this conversation , with respect to you brother and all the brothers and sisters.
I am also going to clarify my respect for all GOD s messengers. I have no doubt that if they erred ,they would have repented and their devotion to GOD would have grown stronger.
I am also going to add that I do not know except what my Lord allows me to know. I can err also. Please check all information as per {17:36}.
I also respect your view, you are entitled to your understanding brother.If we agree to disagree now ,may be we can learn from each other and who knows in the future?
Above every knowledgeable one, there is another more knowledgeable and and above all is the Lord.
GOD bless you and thank you.
Peace.
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I also agree with Truth seeker that if Joseph slipped up ,he would have repented and that is the end of that.
Dear Good Logic,
You are assuming prophet Joseph may have repented based on your own another assumption that prophet joseph may have made an error/ slip/ sin. According to me prophet Joseph never had to repent since he did not commit any error. I am sorry for stating my objection very strongly since according to me this is a serious issue of making a false charge against a prophet of Allah.
By the way, there is one basic important feature you will notice if you are constantly in touch with the Quran. If any wrong / error mentioned in the Quran committed by anyone whether a prophet or any human being, you will never find Allah focusing on the wrong committed and the consequences alone if a repentance has taken place. Either in the same verse or at another place you will find Allah mentioning the repentance of the invidividual/ community and subsequent Allah's forgiveness of the sin. Or at the least you will find Allah forgave the sin (without explicitly mentioning the repentance). This point is alone sufficient to reject your analysis that the verse is referring to prophet Joseph forgetting / putting trust in others other than Allah (Allah Forbid) and subsequently getting punished to remain in the jail for many more years!!
Even you do not have a strong case to show that the word "Rabb" used third time has a different meaning other than its meaning (which you yourself agree as "master" not GOD) in the preceding verses.
I respectfully disagree with you and humbly request you to re-evaluate your conclusion.
Assalamu alaikum
Regards,
Optimist