QM Forum
The Quran => General Discussions => Topic started by: AbbsRay on February 19, 2014, 03:26:03 AM
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Salaam brother Joseph,
Do you have anything on verses 86:5-7?
It certainly is not backbone/ribs/ nor a female anatomy.
(86:7:4) l-ṣul'bi the backbone يَخْرُجُ مِنْ بَيْنِ الصُّلْبِ وَالتَّرَائِبِ
(86:7:5) wal-tarāibi and the ribs يَخْرُجُ مِنْ بَيْنِ الصُّلْبِ وَالتَّرَائِبِ
I have medical terms of the anatomy possibly what Allah is referring to... But doesn't look like they exist in Arabic terms.
Some tried to correct Quran Corpus putting Loin... And the female anatomy... But it doesn't make sense.
Thanks
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Wa alaikum assalam Abbsrayray
This is a very good question and as you have noted, a highly debated and somewhat contentious matter. I think it best that I dedicate a short paper / article on this with a view to share my perspective given that I have some old notes on this which I would like to share and which I have never put to article form.
I will deal with this issue soon, God willing as I do think it is a good verse to comment on. I will let you know on this forum when the article is published to the site and other portals, God willing.
Your brother in faith,
Joseph
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Greetings Abbsrayray.
Here is an explanation to have a look at if you wish?
http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/archive/index.php/t-2602.html
Check all information as per [17:36]
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Salaam br Joseph. I look forward to your perspective on this too....Saba
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Salamun Alaikum BJ,
Thank You...take your time. I was pondering on it for a while myself and all my research is lost on my lap top that crashed.. >:(
I have narrowed it down, but I don't want to say it is that because I'm not sure, I don't want to twist Allah's words and meanings around.
Looking forward to see your thoughts..
salaam
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Salaam Good Logic,
Thank You :)
I tend to stay away from scholars interpretations. ..
Most if not all of the muslim doctors who are explaining it on these sites are without doubt WRONG! :-X
I think they are just reading the verses and not studying other verses in the Quran in regards to creation.
A lot came up with these ideas and translations to justify the what Allah means to Islamic Critics.. science is not concrete facts and I think the Quran proved scientists wrong many times. I don't think many people see the Quran not being a science book... they certainly have signs in it... its never wrong so I'm not looking to cooperate with science, I'm just a geek who is interested in how things are created from Allah or functions...
My God, some one silence a guy name Bassam Zawadi off You Tube. The man is absolutely clueless about Islam... Islam overall. He should mot speak for Islam nor should anyone who's confused or misguided. Is he shia? He said something about Islam tells us, Muslim's, to uphold the scholars/Imams infallible if they all agree on meaning on verses, therefore Muslim's are to go what they say on the meaning. Sounds like a misguided cult to me..
Salaam
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Salaam Abbsrayray / readers
Please see below attempted critiques by Bassam Zawadi on Joseph Islam's Articles on this forum As you will note, brother Joseph remained respectful, responded properly, but unfortunately there came a point on Facebook, where Bassam continued to write sarcastic remarks on Joseph's Facebook page and getting personal after which discussions with Bassam were stopped. If people cannot behave and keep basic ettiquettes during academic discussions, there is no point discussing matters with them. It seems like when people do not like what is said to them or they cannot properly defend their position, they get personal!
Direct Exchanges:
1 - Joseph Islam's Article "THE SEVEN AHRUF, RECITATIONS (QIRAAT), HAFS AND WARSH"
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=840
2 - Joseph Islam's Article "THE COMPILATION OF THE QURAN"
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=836.0
3 - Joseph Islam's Article "HOW DO WE KNOW THAT THE QURAN WAS FULLY PRESERVED? ...."
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=837
4 - Joseph Islam's Article "EXCLUSIVENESS OF PROPHET MUHAMMAD (pbuh)"
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=833
5 - Joseph Islam's Article "ALLEGED MURDER SANCTIONED BY THE PROPHET - OVERLAP OF...
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=834
6 - Preservation of the Quran
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=682
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Salaam Truth Seeker,
thank You, I will read them Inshallah.
May Allah send a cure for ignorance, Ya Rubbi please!!!!!
I was sent the clip from my co worker who asked me why he's saying things differently, (he was in a debate with a church full of people :o) than I have been about Islam..
I never say anything about verses I don't know or make it clear I'm not sure.. At least some of us are fearful of Allah to do that.
I feel so sorry.. I mean so sorry for those who follow blindly...
I would love to walk in on one of his debates and correct him.. Lol ;D
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Greetings Abbsrayray.
I agree. However there is nothing wrong with reading information, if we check and disregard what is false/ rubbish...
GOD has thrown the truth( Qoran) at falsehood ( Most of man made stuff/books...which is nonsense and conjecture) and it is giving it a big hit ( It will be shown up) ...
As long as we keep using the Qoran as a guide to check our information (If GOD is not diverting us from His truth), we will be fine.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Salam Sister Saba We shall Inshallah wait to see Bro JAI's explanation on this subject Inshallah
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Dear good logic Salam By the way do you have a web site of God Alone? Thanks
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Greetings Sardar.
Do you mean the following website?:
http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/democracy-v-god-s-system/
I have not written any new articles in this website for a while, may be in the future GOD willing.
I tend to advise others to study Qoran, mainly.
Also I am sure if you search the internet , you will find more GOD Alone websites.
Thank you for asking.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Salam Sister Saba We shall Inshallah wait to see Bro JAI's explanation on this subject Inshallah
Salaam Good Logic,
I believe I have a pretty good Idea now what the second word is referring to.
I read what others wrote on a site which confused me and had my thinking focused on male vs female. That's why I like researching it from scratch because you will end up looking for words or explanations that have nothing to do with the verse at all. Which put me in a view of not including the female which as a matter of fact the female is being referred to as the male.
I went to an IVF clinic yesterday, one of my friends is a doctor there and it helped a lot which narrows it down. It helped in a sense to know the exact area of the body it is even possible. What makes sense now also is when they do Invetro, I am sure Allah knew that was going to happen in the future when the verse came down, and how He said the verses 5-7 the way He did. Subhana Allah He sure covered everything incase someone tries to criticize His words...
It is not no rib, no bones nothing.. the issue is with muslims or even others think because that is what is in the dictionary that it might be right, it isn't. And there are words in the Quran that we will never know the truth meaning of the word or verse itself. The issue with this verse I think is everyone thought because of the backbone and rib or how every Quran that is translated besides Arabic has Man, him, he instead of the word referring to both female and male. It distorts the whole verse. In Arabic man is not the term to refer all humans like how other languages have.
I am going to work on research more, I am planning to InshaAllah send it to Brother Joseph and hopefully we all will be able to understand it. It is too much information to put all on here, although it is three simple verses, one has to have their proof to back it up.
May Allah guide...
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Dear Abbsrayray / all
As-salam alaykum
As promised, please see my humble perspective on the rendition of these verses. I hope you find at least some use from the content shared.
VERSE 86:7 - HUMAN CREATION
http://quransmessage.com/articles/verse%2086-7%20FM3.htm
Kind regards,
Joseph
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For those interested, this has been discussed several times on the free-minds forum.
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For those interested, this has been discussed several times on the free-minds forum.
Salaam Wakas - I'm sure people know where free-minds.org is if they want to go there. The question was asked here....on this forum.... do you have a view on this to share here!? Saba
@br. Joseph ....... thanks for your article..still going through it .....!!! ;D ;D
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Than you very much Bro JAI for detailed expiation of Ayaat 86: 5-7
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Bro. Wakas Instead of directing QM members to free mind Forum you may as we'll explain on this Forum
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Salaam br. joseph and thank u for your article which i have gone through...although we can find more hidden meanings, I understand i think why you have kept as close to the qur'an's verses and the classical arabic dictionaries as possible... I suppose if you go out side the arabic language as it has got to us then someone will find all kinds of different interpretations of other verses where people disregard the arabic language and make up their own definitions. I have seen enough of this as people say that 'nisa' does not mean women but means weaker members of society... we already know what has happened to the meaning of salat, saum, jinn, insaan etc.!!!...We have seen enough of that by certain groups in other forums as well as here.!! I suppose when u can't prove your view with support from either the qur'an or lexicons, your argument will be attacked or you could 'potentially' ..make anything up... I get it...that is if u cannot trust the language that we receive, then how can we trust anything the qur'an says???? It would become like bedlam with the qur'an! ...so i understand why you kept it strictly the way you did. but i also noted that there was much room left for interpretation in what you said as you left it quite general too at the same time. Was this intentional????....thanx, very helpful. Saba 8) ;D
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salaam all,
saba - readers of this thread may be unaware of free-minds hence my post. I always recommend researching multiple options in order to weigh them up, then opt for the most evidenced/logical option.
sardar - I cant summarise the discussions on free-minds as they extended to multiple pages and multiple options. Like this forum, it has a search function.
I wasn't entirely convinced by any particular option. My own thoughts several years ago was that it may refer to the spinal signal that results in the ejection of seminal fluid by the male. To my knowledge, according to latest research, the origin is actually a relay-centre in the spinal cord, not the brain.
I'm not convinced by br. Joseph's interpretation. For example, I'd have to see a clear example in Quran wherein something is stated as being between A and B, and what is meant is that thing is in motion from A to B. If such an example can be produced then it would give such an interpretation more weight.
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Salam Wakas, There appears to be no reason to reject or differ Bro Joseps views. Can you please summerise the views on Free Mind Forum for our information as we are not having time & patience to go through the long discussions at Free Mind Forum. Thanks for sharing.
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Dear Readers,
As-salam alaykum
Further to my article, my humble conclusion shares the following comments:
"The depiction of human form from humble beginnings is depicted in a manner which remains encompassing and speaks to an audience who would have been familiar with human reproduction. In verses 86:5-7, this reality is merely depicted as a life forming fluid which issues forth from the male counterpart (sulb) and involves the female counterpart (tara'ib) which in turn produces human life." [1]
I feel a comparison is apt with another verse of the Quran:
Verse 16:66
Laban (milk) is CREATED from what is in their bellies
FROM WHAT IS BETWEEN (min bayni) [BOWEL CONTENTS] AND BLOOD
Therefore milk is produced as a by-product of two entities 1 (bowel contents) + 2 (blood)
Verse 86:7
Human life is CREATED of a life fluid / water pouring forth (86:5)
FROM WHAT IS BETWEEN (min bayni) Al-SULB (male) AND 'AL-TARA'IB' (female)
Therefore humans are produced as a by-product of two entities 1 (male anatomy) + 2 (female anatomy)
Regards,
Joseph
REFERENCES
[1] VERSE 86:7 - HUMAN CREATION
http://quransmessage.com/articles/verse%2086-7%20FM3.htm
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Dear brother Joseph,
salaam.
"The depiction of human form from humble beginnings is depicted in a manner which remains encompassing and speaks to an audience who would have been familiar with human reproduction. In verses 86:5-7, this reality is merely depicted as a life forming fluid which issues forth from the male counterpart (sulb) and involves the female counterpart (tara'ib) which in turn produces human life." [1]
Did you modify the bold and underlined part above?
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Dear brother Joseph,
salaam.
"The depiction of human form from humble beginnings is depicted in a manner which remains encompassing and speaks to an audience who would have been familiar with human reproduction. In verses 86:5-7, this reality is merely depicted as a life forming fluid which issues forth from the male counterpart (sulb) and involves the female counterpart (tara'ib) which in turn produces human life." [1]
Did you modify the bold and underlined part above?
Wa alaikum assalam brother Wakas,
Yes, the article was slightly modified (replacing one word with two words) to better reflect my conclusions in the manner I intended, in accordance to the evidence I presented (so that it didn't get misunderstood). Hence, my post stating "Further to my article…" with the latest update.
The change was:
From:
In verses 86:5-7, this reality is merely depicted as a life forming fluid which issues forth from the male counterpart (sulb) to the female counterpart (tara'ib) which in turn produces human life.
To:
In verses 86:5-7, this reality is merely depicted as a life forming fluid which issues forth from the male counterpart (sulb) and involves the female counterpart (tara'ib) which in turn produces human life.
I believe that the latter expression better represents the conclusions stated earlier as thus:
"Therefore, it can be safely posited from classical sources that 'al-Taraib' whilst being a rare word, is a plural noun depicting the female anatomy in general, and in verse 86:7, it can encompass the female reproductive anatomy holistically."
I also anticipate updating my article further with more information to support my position in due course, God willing.
Does the current edition alter your perspective on my views? I appreciate how my earlier comments before the current edition could have led you to conclude differently in the manner that you have in your earlier post.
Regards,
Joseph
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Salamun Alaikum Brother Joseph,
Alhumduillah, I knew you would get it... :)
Thank God for the cows.. lol
Salaam
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Dear brother Joseph,
salaam.
Thanks for the clarification.
Yes, it does change my thoughts on your view, as I now consider the updated/clarified view more probable. This was also one of the options discussed on the free-minds forum, albeit not in as much detail as your article.
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3"Sulb" is the backbone and "tara'ib"the breast- bones, i.e. the ribs. Since the procreative fluid in both man and woman is discharged from that part of the body which is between the back and the breast, it is said that man has been created from the fluid issuing out froth between the back and the breast. This fluid is produced even in case the hands and feet are cut off. Therefore, it is not correct to say that it issues out from the whole body of man. In fact, the principal organs of the body are its source and all these are located in the trunk. The brain has not been mentioned separately because the back-bone is that part of the brain through which connection between the body and the brain is established. (Also see Appendix I).
Famous Alim Abul Ala Maudoodi has translated in Urdu & in English as noted above. Brother Joseph may kindly confirm if it is right & in conformity with his views ?Thanks
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Salaam Sardar,
It is the Male Reproductive System and the Female reproductive System. This has NOTHING to do with ribs or bones... Or where the fluid is made in the body, whether it is the glands that are all over your body or your head.
The ONLY reason Ribs and Backbone is used, (BTW those are not the correct terms for those bones in question either, at least we no one I know refers to ribs and backbone using those words, there are different ones I always used growing up) because the English dictionaries and translators say so. The Quran did not come with a dictionary... One needs to use common sense. Even some of the Lexicon dictionary has wrong definitions of words, there are some that it is referring to Imams in the Hadith putting "according to" than they put the initials of the person. That is why it is extremely important for one to study and ponder on the words in Allah's verses.
Allah made the Quran easy for us....
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This is very old style translation of a Urdu Alim Abul Ala Maudoodi of Pakistan.I know it is not right translation as hewas not referred latest dictionaries. Therefore I wanted Bro Joseph Islam to kindly comment on this Thanks
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Salaam Sardar, I'm just wondering, br. joseph has already provided here a detailed article on this discussing this yet why are you asking him about another obscure translation of Maudoodi when he has clearly stated his opinion on these verses???? If you haven't read the article .. please see link below!! Thanks Saba ;D :)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/verse%2086-7%20FM3.htm
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OK Thanks I just wanted Bro Joseph to point out where Abul Ala has committed mistake. I shall try to find out myself.
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Salaam all,
SPERM or HUMAN?
86:5 So let man observe from what he was created.
86:6 He was created from a fluid, ejected,
86:7 Emerging from between the backbone and the ribs.
86:8 Indeed, Allah, to return him [to life], is Able.
What is emerging between the backbone and the ribs? Some claim it is the baby, others claim it is the sperm. I think both positions are correct. Baby develops down in the uterus located between the backbone and ribs and the following verse supports the human being. Yet the 6th and 7th verses are also connected because the sperm producing testicles are developed from the Mesonephroses. They are at the left and right sides of the baby in the uterus. The mesonephroses are turned into testicles before the baby is born and they get down to the scrotum through the channel called inguinal channel.
Hope
http://www.embryology.ch/anglais/ugenital/diffmorpho04.html
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Wa 3alykum wa salam Sister Hope
In case you missed the article regarding this topic I share it below. Its a remarkable article. I think I'm still with the opinion its speaking about a male anatomy (Al-SULB) plus a female anatomy (AL-TARA'IB). Overall human.
Thanks for sharing
Salam
VERSE 86:7 - HUMAN CREATION
http://quransmessage.com/articles/verse%2086-7%20FM3.htm