QM Forum
The Quran => General Discussions => Topic started by: Deliverance on March 03, 2014, 03:12:55 AM
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Salam at all,
Can someone explain who is mention with the pronoun "We"in the Quran which is often used.Is it meant for the angles or are humans also identified with it?
wa salam
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Salaam,
This article may be useful:
Why Does the Quran Sometimes Use the Plural? - http://quransmessage.com/articles/plural%20FM3.htm
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Salam Truth Seeker,
Thank you for linked article,according to the article of Joseph it is used for an "unseen" pluraltiy as Joseph wrote..." Please note the mention of ‘mala-i-l-ala’ (37:8) which is recognition of an exalted assembly..."
If im not mistaken there are speeches of Named Figures in the Quran using the plural and if so do they (Prophets) have access to this divine assembly ?
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Salaam Deliverance,
Please can you share examples of verses that you are referring to?
Thanks
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Salam Truth Seeker,
Sorry,here are two verses about Dhul Carnain in Sura 18
", (85) Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: near it he found a People: We said: "O Dhu al Qarnayn! (thou hast authority) either to punish them, or to treat them with, kindness." (86) He said: "Whoever doth wrong, him shall we punish; then shall he be sent back to his Lord; and He will punish him with a punishment unheard-of (before)."
wa salam
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Salaam Deliverance,
I always understood the 'we' here as Zul-qarnain and his armies because he was given power in the land (18.84). So when he travelled, there would be a convoy I would have thought. But prophet Jesus was strengthened with the Holy Spirit but as far as i know never referred to himself as 'We'?
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Asalamu Alykum
If you go back to verse 18:83 and read on
18:83 They ask thee concerning Zul-qarnain. Say, "I will rehearse to you something of his story."
18:84 Verily We established his power on earth, and We gave him the ways and the means to all ends.
18:85 One (such) way he followed,
18:86 Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."
18:87 He said: "Whoever doth wrong, him shall we punish; then shall he be sent back to his Lord; and He will punish him with a punishment unheard-of (before).
Allah(swt) is telling the prophet Muhammad(pbuh) and the reader of the Quran that Allah is aware that people are asking the prophet himself concerning Zul-qarnain. so he tells the Prophet to say, "I will rehearse to you something of his story" (this is off topic but I wonder if the story that the prophet is rehearsing to the ones asking, is it through the Quran or other inspiration given to the prophet?)(maybe someone can give some information on that Insh'Allah)
18:84 tells how Allah established Zul-Qarnain power and earth and so on…
18:86 tells us whats happening to Zul-Qarnain and then Allah Called out to him maybe through inspiration and said to him We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."
18:87 Zul-Qarnain replies back.
so the "WE" in verse 18:86 is a reference to Allah(swt) saying that to the best of my knowledge.
Its amazing how at the same time that Allah speaks to the prophet himself through the Quran and gives the message and the story to the reader as well.
Salam
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Salaam Deliverance,
I always understood the 'we' here as Zul-qarnain and his armies because he was given power in the land (18.84). So when he travelled, there would be a convoy I would have thought. But prophet Jesus was strengthened with the Holy Spirit but as far as i know never referred to himself as 'We'?
Salaam ,
This is one possible explanation that Zul-Qarnain is not alone travelling ,if he is a Prophet and is ruling over a Country he rather would be accompanied by some followers who said: "O Dhu al Qarnayn! (thou hast authority) either to punish them, or to treat them with, kindness."an allmighty god is knowing who should be punished or treat well.
Then he is replying to his followers
(86) He said: "Whoever doth wrong, him shall we punish; then shall he be sent back to his Lord; and He will punish him with a punishment unheard-of (before)."
About Jesus (pbuh) i know that he is mentioned to be in a rank like the Angles but i did not find using plural in his speechs.
Sura 4"(171) Christ disdaineth not to serve and worship Allah, nor do the angels, those nearest (to Allah): those who disdain His worship and are arrogant― He will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer). "
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aam,
Would this be Cyrus that Allah is referring to?
I was actually interested in finding out myself, It sounds like King Salomon.. He was the only one Allah describes in the Qur'an having the ability to understand birds, ants language, and in verses 93 in surat 18, those people he came across had a language one could not understand, but the following verse Dhul-Qarnayn is communicating with them, so he understood them.
Salmon was a King also a Prophet, and Allah mentions in verse 18:86, how He was communicating with him. Allah also mentions that He gave Salomon the prophet hood and Authority to be a King.. Allah would never be saying what kind of power He gave this Dhul-Qarnayn, as we know of other kings who had people worshiping them, but Dhul-Qarnayn never did that and he worshiped Allah.
Allah also mentions in the Quran that Salomon was blessed with lots of Iron/copper, copper and iron is mentioned that Dhul-Qarnayn builds to keep Gogg and Mogog in. I think that people who did not believe in the Rasool wanted to know if he had any knowledge and asked him, So the Rasool asked Allah, and in 34:46, Allah tells us to ponder on the verses.. Surat Sad, (38) speaks a lot about prophet Salomon, which very much describes this journey of Dhul-Qarnayn.
I am still researching this, when I read something a week ago, that referenced the Qur'an, (non Islamic writing) and it referenced about this person being Cyrus, but all my study so far in the Qur'an points at King Salomon, because He was both a king and Prophet.
Although Allah does not refer to him as Salomon, it might be the same thing as Allah refers others by a different name.. Like wasn't Prophet Mohummad referred to as Yaseen by Allah and Ahmad? In surat 61:6, Allah mentions that referring to prophet Muhummad.
Allah also tells us that He has verses in the Qur'an with stories so we ponder on them. I am thinking He is meaning these people already were mentioned (prophets) but is referring to them by a different name to tell us stories.
I could be way off, May Allah forgive me, as this is only my opinion so far based on what I have been researching based on many verses in the Qur'an. but I am still researching this within the Qur'an and not sure yet...
The story in the verses before it about Prophet Moses and the man with knowledge also seems to be a Prophet but not mentioned by name just the way Allah is mentioned in there with what the man is saying and it leads to some kind of communication with Allah and this man, Moses was with..
May Allah grant us the wisdom and knowledge to understand these verses the way Allah intends us too..
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Asalamu Alaykum
Does anyone else here take the word "WE" in verse 18:86 to refer to Allah saying "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."?
Seems like we are way off in opinions here. And I might be not following correctly to the narrations of the Quran?
I find that the "WE said" is referring to ALLAH said
Is that correct?
Peace
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Salam Hamzeh,
That's a good question. I have for a while pondered if there was a second authority involved as being referred to as the author of the Quran by Allahs permission what to reveal to Prophet Muhammad. We know prophet Muhammad wrote what was revealed to him, but also we know who Allah sent to reveal the Quran to.
Also, in some verses when "we" is mentioned, is Gabriel saying this? with of course Allah telling him?
But if it is, Gabriel and Mekaeel are always mentioned a different creation of Allah from being angels and assisting the prophets. bJ, has an article on them.
What I mentioned is what I'm still looking into. It's not concrete.
I can only say about one not following the narratives only depends on the person. I have no idea how you are processing what it is said when you read or listen to the verses. It sure took me a while and I have a long way to go. I spend hours daily on the Quran, and have several tools to do research.
I might be completely wrong, I really don't know for sure. Just based on what I pondered on led me to prophet Solomon.
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Asalamu Alaykum Abbsrayray
There would not be any second authority. Allah(swt) is the only authority. He would be the only one giving a command and so on. I actually just read Brother Josephs article which makes a good point.
http://quransmessage.com/articles/plural%20FM3.htm
That the word "WE" might be at times talking on behave of maybe ALLAH and the Angles, which He Allah alone sends the Angels to carry out a task. And at other times the word "WE" appears as a form of royalty. Thats my understanding of brother Josephs views. Which in my opinion does not take away from God as the only sole authority.
you mentioned "I have for a while pondered if there was a second authority involved as being referred to as the author of the Quran by Allahs permission what to reveal to Prophet Muhammad. We know prophet Muhammad wrote what was revealed to him, but also we know who Allah sent to reveal the Quran to. "
From my understanding and belief is that the author of the Quran is Allah. Whether someone wrote it down or many wrote it down, it still remains to be the words of Allah. It was an inspiration that was given from Allah to the prophet Muhammad. Now WHO, inspired the Quran to the prophet is still Allah. now HOW, through a medium(Gabriel and/or Angels) which was ordered and decreed by Allah's command alone.
And maybe something worth noting is that the Quran was not revealed all at once. So maybe what you were asking is how did the Prophet know when to reveal a surah? Because I don't want to say something I don't know, i would have to say to my best of understanding is that it was either inspired to him through Angels or Gabriel or dreams. Since Allah only spoke to prophet Moses from what the Quran wanted us to know.
I find that when discussing one topic it sometimes leads to another topic to get a better understanding of what happens. To many questions can pop up at anytime. I find Brother Joseph usually has related topics to his articles on the bottom which I find he put them together quite well Mash'Allah.
here is a good article on the compilation of the Quran
http://quransmessage.com/articles/the%20compilation%20of%20the%20quran%20FM3.htm
now back to the word "WE" in ayah 18:86. to me I try to keep focused on the who the narrative is and who is the speech from. I find it does switch at times, from past to present or maybe a future event.
About a year or so ago I did not follow the narratives, but i find it very beneficial when I do. Alhamdulila I capture the story much clearer.
But thats good to hear your spending a lot of time Insh'Allah God blesses you for your effort.
just out of curiosity in the verse 18:86 when its mentioned "WE SAID" are you thinking thats refers to Zul Qurnain . and is that why you asked if prophets can be having a access to a divine assembly?
because if thats the case, I think you lost the transition where the Quran is talking about him then takes you to what Allah said to him(either through the mediums or inspiration I don't know). and then 18:87 Zul Qurnain replies back to 18:86
I hope I did not confuse you.
Thats how I looked at it and I could be wrong too, maybe someone who is more educated in this topic can give their views Insh'Allah.
Salam
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"just out of curiosity in the verse 18:86 when its mentioned "WE SAID" are you thinking thats refers to Zul Qurnain . and is that why you asked if prophets can be having a access to a divine assembly?"
Well he found People somewhere who did or use to do things what is against the rules in his home.His follower find that tradition(?) which some do to be punished so they asked this ruler who seems to be a wise man,maybe a Prophet,maybe he could possibly be a Prophet already mentioned in the Quran like Abbsrayray preferd him to connect with Solomon(pbuh).Actually there a places far from the home of Solomon which are named after him.
I thought that the "WE SAID"in 18:86 is a dialogue between Allahs mediums/Angles and Dhul-Qrnain but the speech identifies them to be not having authority to judge so Dhul-qrnain replies back
"18:87 He said: "Whoever doth wrong, him shall we punish; then shall he be sent back to his Lord; and He will punish him with a punishment unheard-of (before)."
We see that the some People are doing great sins and my humble opinion is that dhul-qrnain is speaking of death punishment because right after the punishment he/hey are sent back to his Lord.
So i think we have solved that "WE said " here
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Salmun Alaikum Hamzah,
Maybe I should clarify, Allah is the ONLY author of the Quran and His other Scriptures. Allah is the ONLY one who has the AUTHORITY to the words being said in the Qur'an. Where I was coming from is, since we know that Gabriel being on of Allah's Authorized agents, if you will, along with other angels and messengers, Allah of course tells him what revaluation/verses/chapters to reveal to Prophet Muhammad. So without Allah's command, it would not be said. So typically Allah remains the Author, the messengers, angels, Gabriel, Mekaeel and others are only acting as Allah's servants/helpers.. He is the King and He tells them what to say. I just say Brother Josephs article, Yes, I think he pinned it down...
Astaghfer Allah if I misspoken, May Allah forgive me, it came out wrong...
As for just out of curiosity in the verse 18:86 when its mentioned "WE SAID" are you thinking that's refers to Zul Qurnain . and is that why you asked if prophets can be having a access to a divine assembly?
"We Said" Yes, it refers to whoever Allah authorized to communicate to Dhul-Qarnayn. Or if you are asking does the "WE SAID" meaning "Dhul-Qarnayn" as the we said, No, It is Allah saying we said to him, referring to Dhul-Qarnayn, when whoever was communicating with him, and yes, as Allah's servants who were authorized to say whatever Allah tells them to.
Allah is still the Authority and the one that commands His helpers what to say and do, so everything is still is Allah's authority.
I know prophets did have access to divine authority, because throughout the Qur'an, Allah speaks about the communications between either Allah himself, such as with Prophet Moses, or through one of Allah's Messengers, Angels, Gabriel and the others.
Was anyone else able to communicate with Allah's helpers? Well, that is why I am still pondering, so much information. I found that King Talut was appointed from Allah, he was not a prophet from what I know according to the Qur'an. So whomever Allah appoints and authorized to be a King, Prophet, whoever, Allah has communication with them through His angels, Gabriel, messengers, or ways mentioned about others in the Qur'an.
I was leaning towards King and prophet Salomon because of several other things that Allah tells us about him, that in the verses in different chapters the language and iron/copper, which is mentioned in Chapter 18 but not saying Prophet Salomon name. This is the reason why people ponder, I am not saying it is him who Allah is saying that is, I am just pondering and discovering... I may certainly be wrong and way off. To me it is not really important to a place, or individual (s) name, to me it really does not matter, it is more about the message and example of the stories Allah is telling us that I might be able to take as an example to do things in my life that will please Allah. That is really all, but I will say I enjoy so much studying the Qur'an and challenging myself to understand it and finding out just because it is the words of my creator and I can never be bored or say I had enough.
because if thats the case, I think you lost the transition where the Quran is talking about him then takes you to what Allah said to him(either through the mediums or inspiration I don't know). and then 18:87 Zul Qurnain replies back to 18:86
Yes, you are right, I know that, I was referring to the entire Qur'an in general..
Again, I only am pondering, Allah knows who the person He is referring to, I am always careful though because I do not want to say Allah says this and that and be wrong, I am too scared of Allah to do that and that is why I say my opinion or thinking, and not what Allah says unless I am without doubt the message is clear and straight forward with given information.
Yes, brother I am fully aware the Qur'an was revealed in parts to Prophet Muhammad... Allah tells us that in verses 25:32 and 17:106...
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Sallam,
Here is another example of Moses companion ,is he a Prophet or an Anlgle?
18:78 "I"
18:79 "WE"
18:80 "WE...THEIR LORD"
18:81 "YOUR LORD...I DID IT NOT UPON MY OWN COMMAND"
"78) As for the ship, it belonged to poor people working on the river, and I wished to mar it, for there was a king behind them who is taking every ship by force. (79) And as for the lad, his parents were believers and we feared lest he should oppress them by rebellion and disbelief. (80) And we intended that their Lord should change him for them for one better in purity and nearer to mercy. (81) And as for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the city, and there was beneath it a treasure belonging to them, and their father had been righteous, and thy Lord intended that they should come to their full strength and should bring forth their treasure as a mercy from their Lord; and I did it not upon my own command. Such is the interpretation of that wherewith thou couldst not bear. (82) "
Good bye
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Salaam Deliverance,
Is that a question for me?
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Asalamu Alaykum
in the example of Moses companion that Deliverance posted is interesting. The companion of Moses had been given mercy from Allah and had taught knowledge and given him knowledge of the future.
18:65 So they found one of Our servants, on whom We had bestowed Mercy from Ourselves and whom We had taught knowledge from Our own Presence
If I had to guess I would say that because he was given knowledge of the future from Allah. Allah would and could maybe also send the companion a Angel.
So with this thought in mind:
18:78 the "I" would be a referance to the companion himself as he was already given the knowledge of the king who is taking ships by force. So he decided to do that physically.
18:79 Moses companion had knowledge of this boy what he would do if he got older. So the companion and who ever gave him the knowledge(maybe Angel) feared he would be rebellious and they intended 18:80 (the companion and who was handing him the info maybe Angel) that their Lord change him for a more better, purer and nearer to mercy child. 18:81 the Lord told them that the boys should come to their full strength and then aquire their treasure as a mercy from their Lord.
And everything he did was not of his own command. Maybe all this happened that Allah sent him a Angel to command him.
Allah knows best.
I dont know how else to look at it.
though I would really like someone to give their opinion on this. It is interesting and never before payed attention to it before.
salam
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But there are People mentioned in the Quran ,who did not belive in the Message of the Prophets and they even fight them,but he did not send angels to them,they are only send for a particular reason ,i don´t find the ayat right now.
There are a lot of wicked Kids but the creator let them do like he let all tyranns in History let them do what they did.
I think the Story is a Vision of Moses and it seems like it is representing Moses life:
drowning the boat=Moses was saved in a boat from killing
killing the Boy =Moses killed and egyptian
People in village dont serve them Food=Moses expel from egypt
Wall with treasure for two orphans=Moses and Haruns Chosen by God
Thats just a theory Allahu alam
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Salaam.
"There are a lot of wicked Kids but the creator let them do like he let all tyrants in History let them do what they did."
Yes, the letting them or not letting them do a particular thing depends on God's Will.
And whatever God wills, always has an intelligent reason behind it.
The three episodes of the unnamed Servant of God illustrate this very point.
"...And I did it not of my own accord..." (18:82).
There is nothing superfluous, haphazard, cruel, or unwise going on in God's Domain.
We mortals may not be able to fully grasp the import of Divine dispensations due to lack of in-depth knowledge. And hence our inappropriate emotional reactions.
Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
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"...And I did it not of my own accord..." (18:82).
He did it not by his will according to this ayat,if it is an angle it wouldn´t be mentioned that he didn´t act on his own,so we can suppose that it is a Human but we have seen that the pronouns changed from "I" to "WE" in accompany with the use of the word"Lord",which makes this individual part of an divine gathering.
If he is a Prophet then he had a licence to kill a Person who might do harm to his parents"And as for the lad, his parents were believers and we feared lest he should oppress them by rebellion and disbelief. (80) "
If he is a holy Person like some say then he did a sin like the son of Adam who killed his brother Sura 5""For me, I intend to let thee draw on thyself my sin as well as thine, for thou wilt be among the companions of the Fire and that is the reward of those who do wrong." (29) "
I like the Statement of mine,that all this is dream,i came to this because of the fish and his former companion who suddenly disappered.
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Salaam.
"I like the Statement of mine,that all this is dream,i came to this because of the fish and his former companion who suddenly disappeared".
Moses' man Friday is not the central figure. So he has had only a limited mention.
The fish seems to have been caught while they halted at the rock, and, due to some negligence, it wriggled out and disappeared into the water. Satan tried to throw a spanner in the works. But the delayed return to the spot in the hope of securing the fish proved to be the exact time when the unnamed Servant of God was within view of Moses.
Allahu A'lam.
Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
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I found this ayat which could shed some light to the unnamed servant in sura 18.
Sura 4"Christ disdaineth not to serve and worship Allah, nor do the angels, those nearest (to Allah): those who disdain His worship and are arrogant― He will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer). (172) "
in other Translation they used for "abdan" slave ,Yusuf Ali´s translation fits better to understand that Angles are also "abdan"
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Salaam.
Quite.
True to his being "a servant among Our servants", as God says while mentioning him for the first time (18:65) - and He mentions him afterwards in pronouns only - he tells Moses in unequivocal terms, that his wonderful accomplishments were only "a beneficence from your Lord..."(18:82).
Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
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I have found the use of "WE" in the divine gathering when Adam was created and it is said
And when We said unto the angels: Prostrate yourselves before Adam, they fell prostrate, all save Iblis. He demurred through pride, and so became a disbeliever. (34)
Here we can exclude the angles to be part of the "WE" which gave a command to them and Satan/iblis is also not part of the "WE"
But there are divine entities which were not mention and sometimes occur in the Quran,some call them Arcangles and if you read the Quran you will there a mentioned seperated from angles.
Either they "JIBRIEL" and "MIKAIEL" belong to "WE" and this is the reason why the use of plural or they belong to the angles.