QM Forum
The Quran => Islamic Duties => Topic started by: adam on April 01, 2014, 03:04:35 PM
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Salam All,
I came across a study done by Aidid Safar which says that Sola/Salat does not mean physical worship of God but a commitment/responsibility towards God.
I am not arabic, so any effort trying to search into what he says is a bit difficult. He has brought forth some examples of the word used throughout the quran.
Reason why i am posting this is because there are people on this forum with good command of arabic. and i would like to know if there is any merit in this study. here's the link to his page and others. http://aididsafar.com/ and http://mentalbondageinthenameofgod.wordpress.com/2009/01/03/sol-laa-commitments-is-not-ritual-prayer/
What do you guys think of this?
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Salaam, Waste of time if you ask me...also this has been talked about before..
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=908.msg3562#msg3562
Little or no merit at all in these works....just look at the content on this site, you'll see the difference...people like Aidid Safar or qamar zaman from astaana etc only twist the Arabic. If you don't know Arabic or have a good way to analyze it in the Qur'an, then even more the reason to stay away from these kind of groups! Saba
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Hi Saba,
Thanks for replying. But as much as Aidid and his ideas are being pushed aside ( not that i am agreeing ) I believe the argument provided by edip too has very little merit in it. he agrees and disagrees. he also did not provide any information on the word salat or even sola. there is not study done to clear the confusion around this two words. What i've read from numerous blogs and sites too do not provide any good comprehensive study to clear out the misuse of the arabic languange.
Sorry, but i am not the type to just ignore something just because it does not suit the masses or because i do not understand arabic enough. I used to believe in hadiths but not anymore. i used to be a sunni but not anymore. all from studying and searching for a better understanding of truth.
It is easy to discard ideas. but provide a comprehensive study and proof before discarding.
what is sola?
what is salat?
does SLT exist as a word used by God in the quran?
or does SL exist in the quran?
same with zakaa and zakat.
how can non arabs possibly get the full truth when there are people giving meaning to a word in arabic thats not its original? ( i find this possible)
now, you can say its a waste of my time and ignore it. but i will only do so when there is a proper understanding of how this guy is cheating us.
salam Saba and have a pleasent day.
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now, you can say its a waste of my time and ignore it. but i will only do so when there is a proper understanding of how this guy is cheating us.
salam Saba and have a pleasent day.
Well good luck with your pursuits. You asked for a view from the forum so I gave my view. Simple. Have you seen the articles on this site where salat is discussed as well as Zakat??? Or are you trying to push Aidid's views on us? Well maybe then you have come to the wrong forum!! A pleasant day to you too! Salaam
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Hi Saba,
Yes I have read the articles. Somehow, i do not understand how Br. Joseph is able to discard the concept of hadith but use non islamic sources to proof that early muslims prayed. I dont think the christians cared less of what godly ritual muslims practiced those days to be included in their writings.
but thanks anyway for your input.
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I know what article u are talking about and I have read it too.... its this one right???
http://quransmessage.com/articles/invented%20prayer%20FM3.htm
well ... from where i am seeing this ..br. Joseph made a very good observation and said ....
There is clear evidence in the earliest Non-Muslim sources within approximately a decade of the Prophetic ministry which confirms that the earliest Muslims both prayed and fasted. There would be absolutely no perceivable interest for aggressed Christians to invent such Godly rituals and attribute them to the 'Saracens' (Arab Muslims) who they saw as oppressors.
now it might not be convincing for you but the part I highlighted in red is very strong from where I am seeing it.... and also u forget that the main purpose of the article was to argue against what certain quranists say that 'salaat' was something that was invented later with Persian influence....sorry but wrong as the article showed !!! Saba
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Greetings adam.
What is your view of:
[5:6]
O you who believe, when you observe Salat, you shall: (1) wash your faces, (2) wash your arms to the elbows, (3) wipe your heads, and (4) wash your feet to the ankles. .... If you are ill, or traveling, ..., and you cannot find water, you shall observe the dry ablution (Tayammum) by touching clean dry soil, then rubbing your faces and hands. God does not wish to make the religion difficult for you; He wishes to cleanse you and to perfect His blessing upon you, that you may be appreciative.
يٰأَيُّهَا الَّذينَ ءامَنوا إِذا قُمتُم إِلَى الصَّلوٰةِ فَاغسِلوا وُجوهَكُم وَأَيدِيَكُم إِلَى المَرافِقِ وَامسَحوا بِرُءوسِكُم وَأَرجُلَكُم إِلَى الكَعبَينِ وَإِن كُنتُم جُنُبًا فَاطَّهَّروا وَإِن كُنتُم مَرضىٰ أَو عَلىٰ سَفَرٍ أَو جاءَ أَحَدٌ مِنكُم مِنَ الغائِطِ أَو لٰمَستُمُ النِّساءَ فَلَم تَجِدوا ماءً فَتَيَمَّموا صَعيدًا طَيِّبًا فَامسَحوا بِوُجوهِكُم وَأَيديكُم مِنهُ ما يُريدُ اللَّهُ لِيَجعَلَ عَلَيكُم مِن حَرَجٍ وَلٰكِن يُريدُ لِيُطَهِّرَكُم وَلِيُتِمَّ نِعمَتَهُ عَلَيكُم لَعَلَّكُم تَشكُرونَ
What are we preparing for? a commitment...etc?.
I personally believe when Qoran says: "Aquimi Salat" it means some sort of action to connect with the creator?
I also agree " sala/t" could mean support/commit... in other verses.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Salam All,
Thanks for all your inputs. Please dont get me wrong here. I am not pushing for any new idea nor am i advocating what Aidid safar said. I just need a real need to separate the lies from the truth. And it is difficult when one cannot trust the translations of the quran done by many clergymen
1- Good Logic, It is Aqimu SOLA, and not salat.
Maybe you can help with this. I do not speak arabic. So i am having trouble with the differences between salat and sola or even zakaa and zakat. in the azan, we pronounce it as sola and not salat.
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Asalamu Alykum Adam
I just read a little bit of the site you were talking about by Adid.
A year or so ago, I just came across this site here. I was really shocked about some of the articles I read. I found them to go against the beliefs that was somehow passed on to me from either family, friends or society. What I think always kept me close to my beliefs that I was born with was the ONENESS of GOD. Which made more sense than any other religion. So the question after believing in one God is that is the Quran the book of God or am I just reading it blindly and not understanding it. What I used to know about it was a little different to what i realized now thanks to God and may he reward those who strive hard in his way. After reading many articles from Br. Joseph I was to be honest feeling really confused about my religion because the things I started to read defeated the things I used to think as truth. I don't know if i felt sad deceived or not smart. I felt that what I was reading made more sense to my brain and my heart felt a little more at ease. The questions I had about the Quran that was kept inside me was slowly getting put together and answered. And Thank God slowly I began to ask God for more guidance. To make this short. What I realized in my view is that the FUNDAMENTAL belief between the traditionalist and the Quran centric people is not much different, in the basics of worship, prayer, fasting and what the Quran actually says. I find that within the past 1400+ lots of the Quran's meaning has been garnished with additives to makes things a little more complicated. But thank God he has protected the Quran for people to go back to it.
In the last couple of month, for the first time in my life I read a couple arguments and debates between people who also are Quran centric people but
totally don't believe in Angels, prayer, worshipping, fasting or miracles etc from a Quran's perspective, they described much as being metaphorical or allegorical. When I started reading the arguments, I was much much more confused than even the first time I felt this way. It was that this time, it was a debate and argument from 2 parties who used the same book. My head was spinning and was wondering whats going on. I started to actually think that could it be those people who study science and are really educated correct about all this and maybe thats how the Quran should be read. Both sides spoke excellent language and seemed like they can quote verses from the Quran from memory. And it was very hard to distinguish between the right and the wrong. It felt that if I used my BRAIN only I would pick the side who was more metaphorical in their explanation because it fit with the ways and views of science, well supposedly anyways. or thats what they say. But if I used my BRAIN and HEART and more importantly asked GOD himself to guide me and to make me choose the better side. I would hopefully if God willing pick the side that is more truthful. And after recalling many verses from the Quran about the topics that the allegorical side views, I just couldn't see it making any sense. It was to much to take in and very confusing. And no proof from my humble opinion anyways.
It was as if a new religion is being made up as time went by. The thing that scares me is that many of their views of the Quran is very similar to the way other Quran centric people believe. And not like the misconceptions of the traditional beliefs. So its like picking and choosing and carefully analyzing everything.
The thing that kept me away from the metaphorical allegorical views of the Quran is that I felt that believing in the miracles and the Angels is a necessary need in becoming a believer. And that this verse says much. 3:7
Yusuf Ali
He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is PERVERSITY follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
Perversity-(a deliberate desire to behave in an unreasonable or unacceptable way; contrariness)
Now I hope I didn't get off topic, but the reason I say all this because even though the people who don't believe in prayer as being part of the Quran message. From my perspective when I look closely most of them seem to have the same perspective on many other topics like Angels, miracles and so on.
this is a quote from Br. Joseph Facebook page which I thought was a good question and he i think
"Finally, I ask another humble question. Do some simply not accept the Quran's testimony as it doesn't fit in with their worldview? Do they look for allegorical meanings because they do not want to accept the Quran at its word?
In the end, only God knows best."[1]
In the end only God knows best indeed. And I hope he guides us all to a path even closer and gives us the ability to discern between the right and the wrong Anyasha Allah
As for the word "prayer" in the Quran in Arabic. I found for example 98:5 uses the terms Salatta and Zakatta
But if found in another verse in the Quran the word Solla which in my opinion doesn't necessarily change the meaning.
just like someone saying "Can you read this book"
"he read that book"
the word read still has the same meaning.
May peace be with you
[1] https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/362736677196799
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Greetings adam.
Thank you for your reply.
Please forgive me for being direct with the following:
1- I do not care what one wants to call it, Sola, Sala, Salat,... Where it means a connection to the creator, it is just that. GOD has instructed us to prepare( Ablution in 5:6) before we do Sola.Sala, Salat... at specific times daily as part of our belief to seek Him alone for help/advice/thanks... and connect with Him to improve our relationship with our creator..
2- Where Sola,Sala,Salat...does not mean the special connection prayer, it is also clear that it means support/commitment...to GOD s creations and system.
You have to study Qoran and ponder all its verses, asking His author to help you understand it and live by its instructions and commands. That decision has to be from you with sincerity and dedication to your creator.Then I have no doubt that the confusion and doubts will start to disappear and Qoran will start to become clearer and clearer to you as you get closer and closer to your creator.
May GOD help and bless you.
Peace.
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Salam Good Logic and Hamzeh,
Thanks for your help in trying to clear things out.
You know Hamzeh, What you told in your reply is exactly how i feel. I've just read too many different opinions from many sites and many people that at one point i just couldn't understand what was real and what was not.
Good Logic, I'll try keeping that in mind. It makes good sense.
God Bless
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peace,
Whilst I agree there is variance in views when it comes to salat, the variance is dramatically reduced when comparing works that are evidence-based and detailed.
With regard to Aidid Safar's work, like many works, it contains some good points, and some poor points. Usually when people try to eliminate the regular/timed salat of the mumineen (e.g. salat=commitment) they have great difficulty explaining away the salat-time verses and ablution verses. Some attempt to explain them, some don't bother.
Similarly, those who hold the traditional view of salat=prayer have difficulty explaining certain verses of Quran. Some attempt to explain them, some don't bother.
Perhaps this is no surprise, but the truth likely lies somewhere in-between, which is my view.
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Asalamu alaykum brother Wakas
Shouldn't a believer always try to have commitment and be pure. And can you tell me anyone who does bother to explain it with out giving their own definition to words. And by being very logical about it. By also taking
thanks Salam
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w/salaam Hamzeh,
Shouldn't a believer always try to have commitment and be pure.
Yes, but I'm not sure how this relates.
And can you tell me anyone who does bother to explain it with out giving their own definition to words. And by being very logical about it. By also taking
I am not aware of any one person who has done a comprehensive, evidenced work and put it all in one place. There are a few who have covered certain things well, but it's likely easier to read forum threads and articles that discuss a particular aspect in detail, then piece the information together. For example, on the free-minds forum, there is a compilation thread (http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598319.0) that discusses various issues, and it's good.
It's a lengthy task reading them, but worthwhile. With regard to timings, we are still waiting for brother Joseph to respond here (http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=477.msg5032#msg5032). Hopefully, we can clear things up little by little in due course.
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With regard to timings, we are still waiting for brother Joseph to respond here (http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=477.msg5032#msg5032). Hopefully, we can clear things up little by little in due course.
[Emphasis in red above mine]
As-salam alaykum brother Wakas,
If you don't mind, please can you clarify for me who constitutes these 'we' in your quote above that are waiting for my response. In other words, please can you show me evidence of the number of people, or their requests in forums etc that have clearly indicated that they are awaiting my response on the article you have written. This would be very useful information, as I have mentioned many times before, given my ever increasing commitments, I must utilise my time effectively and this information would help.
As readers are no doubt aware, I have discussed this topic many times and even with you here (http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=477.0) and here (http://salaatforum.com/index.php?id=169). I also have a dedicated section on my website that deals with salaat here (http://quransmessage.com/articles/prayer%20FM3.htm). If you can show me some wider explicit demand, then I may be happy to reprioritise my commitments to some degree Insha'Allah to deal with your 'salat' related queries again.
Much like yourself, and with respect, I cannot consider it a priority to discuss this matter with any one individual (especially someone I have discussed this topic many times before) in much the same way that you have said:
"Unfortunately, I am not really interested in debating an individual, thus I would much prefer a large group of 5-salat-daily advocates. The larger the better." [Wakas] here (http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=svieqptfgca3a71pqn8lubssn0&topic=9606088.0)
Thanks and regards,
Joseph
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w/salaam brother Joseph,
By "we" I meant truthseekers/readers of the forum, including Hamzeh, whom I was addressing. I sometimes use "us" also in replies on forums, e.g. "can you tell us what you mean by..." etc.
We haven't actually discussed salat timings that much, e.g. in the QM thread you linked to, you and I only made about 5 posts each when discussing it. Hardly exhaustive.
In any case, you said it yourself on salaatforum (http://salaatforum.com/index.php?id=229), quote:
In 'any' epistemic debate one has the right to demand a response keeping in view where the burden of proof lies (with the one who asserts a claim).
Quite simply, you made some claims in your salat timings article, and I wrote a rebuttal (http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html) to them, and even highlighted (http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=477.msg5065#msg5065) those I consider clear and irrefutable errors. No-one so far has shown otherwise.
As I said, take your time in responding, we can wait some more.
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By "we" I meant truthseekers/readers of the forum, including Hamzeh, whom I was addressing. I sometimes use "us" also in replies on forums, e.g. "can you tell us what you mean by..." etc.
Wa alaikum assalam Wakas,
Thanks for your response.
Therefore I understand that no one has explicitly requested a response from me on your article and you are speaking on behalf of others. From what has been said so far then, all I can respectfully ascertain is that you are the only one expecting a response from the article you have written.
Like I shared, it is important that I use my time wisely and effectively and in order for me to prioritise my work effectively I need to understand context and demand.
I humbly feel it would be better if you do not speak on behalf of others as for all I know, maybe readers are satisfied with my responses that I have made on this topic to you and others. Also it creates a false sense of importance or creates credibility to your attempted rebuttal where there may not be any. I feel it more accurate that you say that it is you that is awaiting a response as that would be a fairer reflection of the situation at hand and clearer for me.
Finally, as you know an 'epistemic debate' is held by at least two people and with their consent. I do not feel a debate is viable if it is one person that is attempting to solicit a response by themselves. You have written some sort of article in which you claim you have rebutted my claims. That is all. From my experience thus far, when I have given up my time to discuss your views, I have respectfully found them to be without warrant on this topic as is somewhat your approach to the Quran. I have already cited the links here (http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=477.0) and here (http://salaatforum.com/index.php?id=169).
Therefore, as I shared in a related post to you:
...God willing and time permitting, I will go through them if I can.
Kind regards,
Joseph
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Asalamu Alaykum brother Wakas
what I ment was is there any people you know who actually try honestly without changing the meanings of the Quran to mean that Salat is actually commitment only. Or that it is not a worship and has form. Because you mentioned some try to explain them and some dont bother. I was curious on the ones that do bother to explain that salat as being not actually form and the way the traditional way is taken.
I found brother Joseph to go in depth in his articles explaining salat. That salat is a worship that includes form. That there are many requirements such as wudu before. And the steps involved in prayers. And how to deal with prayer when in danger or scared. That even the volume of voice required. That one must understand what they say and there is also a direction. And the form its self. The sujud and ruku. Also I think this thread below is a good explanation of how its been passed on and that God has expected man to learn from another or bow down with those that bow down. The thread goes in much better details. And not to forget all the other threads that brother Joseph wrote on. To be honest I found it to be very convincing.
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=380.0
As much as I think salat is required. I still try to keep a open mind to someone who can explain it other wise.
There is a big difference trying to correct the true religion of islam that was traditionally lost through secondary sources with the Quran. And by changing the meanings of the Quran to satisfy the needs of people.
Salam
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I found brother Joseph to go in depth in his articles explaining salat. That salat is a worship that includes form. That there are many requirements such as wudu before. And the steps involved in prayers. And how to deal with prayer when in danger or scared. That even the volume of voice required. That one must understand what they say and there is also a direction. And the form its self. The sujud and ruku. Also I think this thread below is a good explanation of how its been passed on and that God has expected man to learn from another or bow down with those that bow down. The thread goes in much better details. And not to forget all the other threads that brother Joseph wrote on. To be honest I found it to be very convincing.
Shalom / peace ... I gotta agree with this>>>>. I am also fully satisfied with bro Joseph's response on this topic.
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Salaam,
I also agree with Hamzeh regarding Joseph's articles about salaat. Along with the articles, he has extensively debated the topic on other forums as has been mentioned.
Those lengthy discussions could go on forever but to tell you the truth, I feel that the topic has been thoroughly exhausted so I don't know why Waqas is trying to bring Joseph back into the discussion by using a mysterious 'we'.
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Salam All,
I think i have to apologize for starting this thread.I have noticed from previous discussions the exchange of words from brother Wakas and brother Joseph and i did not mean for it to creep up again.
I feel a debate will not help in clearing up any misunderstanding.
A last request for those here that i feel have greater knowledge than me.
1- What English translation of the Quran is best?
2- Can we trust the meanings to the words given in Arabic? for example; the Persians translate khimar to mean specifically a head cover when it does not necessarily mean so. what about other words? Is there a possibility that those that have power in religion are able to put a meaning to a word and thus render a sentence differently?
As we all know, the dirt inserted into Islam started during the conquests of the Abbasid dynasty and maybe even before that. with all the fitnah's, and in-fighting happening during that time it is clear that what we have now as "guidance" is a product of all that. The Persians never liked the Arabs, and so when they held the caliphate, anything Arabic in language and tradition were all corrupted and changed to suit the Persian way of living.
A product from these conquest were forced conversion. not by the sword but by economic, social and political means. The Muslim rulers did not need to force a conversion to non Muslims because they could collect a certain tax from them. Why force them to convert? those who actually converted were those living at the lower levels of society. Converting to Islam because it benefited them socially and economically. but their real spiritual roots were maintained and injected into the Islam they adopted. Hence, that is why we have many similarities with Zoroastrianism.
3- How to break away from the bullshit? bullshit that has transformed into truth after a thousand or so years? can i still trust an Arabic Quran to hold the same meaning it had during the time of the first 4 caliphs? the spelling and words may be the same, but what about the meaning it renders throughout that 1400 year period?
If i am wrong to question all this do let me know and i will gladly try an understand why
Peace All
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Greetings adam.
Indeed can you trust anyone or anything?
I think you can only trust in GOD.
Again what I say has to be subjected to checking as per [17:36], here it goes:
The way we observe our Sola, Salah,Salat... is not based on Hadith. Qoran teaches us that its rituals were in existence and were delivered and practiced by prophet Abraham way before Qoran and prophet Muhammad's time:
[Qoran 4:125] Who is better guided in his deen than one who submits totally to God, leads a righteous life, according to the creed of Abraham: monotheism? God has chosen Abraham as a beloved friend.
[Qoran 22:78] You shall strive for the cause of God as you should strive for His cause. He has chosen you and has placed no hardship on you in practicing your deen - the religion of your father Abraham. He is the one who named you "Muslimeen" originally. Thus, the messenger shall serve as a witness among you, and you shall serve as witnesses among the people. Therefore, you shall observe the Salat and give the Zakat, and hold fast to God; He is your Lord, the best Lord and the best Supporter.
[Qoran 2:127] As Abraham raised the foundations of the shrine, together with Ismail (they prayed): "Our Lord, accept this from us. You are the Hearer, the Omniscient.
[Qoran 2:128] "Our Lord, make us submitters to You, and from our descendants let there be a community of submitters to You. Teach us the rites of our deen, and redeem us. You are the Redeemer, Most Merciful.
Muhammad then delivered Qoran confirming the fact that he is a strict follower of the religion of Abraham that its rites have been already inherited. The word Millat, used in the following verse means "ways or methods of service/worship" in the Arabic dictionary. Muhammad followed the rites that were practised by Abraham:
[Qoran 16:123] Then we inspired you (Muhammad) to follow the Millat of Abraham,* the monotheist; he never was an idol worshiper.
As far as all of our rites, Qoran only dealt with whatever got altered since Abraham such as the tone of our prayer (17:110), the basic steps of ablution (5:6), the times of our five daily contact prayers, the command of giving the utmost importance to the Friday Congregational Prayer (62:9), allowing sexual relationship with our spouses during the nights of Ramadan (2:187), whatever is mentioned in regard of Hajj and Umrah, and whatever is mentioned in regard of our Zakat, with the highlight that it is due whenever we collect or receive our income (6:141). Anything in regard of our rituals that is not detailed in Qoran has been already preserved by God and passed down correctly and this is basically why it is not detailed in Qoran. GOD also clarifies by sending messengers.
Believing in Qoran alone mandates the belief in the words stated by God to teach us the above system of how we inherited our rites including of course our" Salat". This system is spelled out in 16:123, 4:125, 22:78, and 2:127-128. Ignoring this clear system issued by God, and hanging on our personal wishes to find all the details of our rituals in Qoran only reflects our disbelief in Qoran itself, the lack of trust in its divinity, and the lack of trust in God and His systems. . Indeed, Qoran is complete and fully detailed. Part of its complete details is the above system of inheriting our rites from Abraham. Either we believe in it or we choose to be with those who take the word of God partially and conditionally. Do they believe in part of the scripture and ignore other parts (2:85)? Those who do so, are the dividers in the following verses:
[Qoran 13:36] Those who received the scripture rejoice in what was revealed to you; some others may reject parts of it. Say, "I am simply enjoined to serve/worship God, and never associate any idols with Him. I invite to Him, and to Him is my ultimate destiny."
[Qoran 13:37] We revealed these laws in Arabic, and if you ever acquiesce to their wishes, after this knowledge has come to you, you will have no ally, nor a protector, against God.
[Qoran 15:90] We will deal with the dividers.
[Qoran 15:91] They accept the Qoran only partially.
[Qoran 15:92] By your Lord, we will question them all,
[Qoran 15:93] about everything they have done.
[Qoran 15:94] Therefore, carry out the orders given to you, and disregard the idol worshipers.
GOD tries us by sending human messengers to clarify. Would we ever agree? Can Qoran be understood by all? What does Qoran say about diverting some and guiding others?...
May the lord guide us to His true path.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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salaam Joseph,
In my experience of forums, it is very rare for someone to post on a thread "I'm waiting for a response on this" or similar. Perhaps this is what you expect, I don't know. It is interesting some forum members have now implied you have discussed this thoroughly to the extent that there is no need for further discussion. That is quite a feat for anyone. Of course, I disagree with them.
Like I shared, it is important that I use my time wisely and effectively and in order for me to prioritise my work effectively I need to understand context and demand.
It is ironic to think the time you have spent non-replying (multiple times now) you could have easily replied to the first "clear and irrefutable error" I highlighted, which is a fairly simple one to clarify.
From my experience thus far, when I have given up my time to discuss your views, I have respectfully found them to be without warrant on this topic as is somewhat your approach to the Quran.
Interesting, considering you have corrected your articles sometimes based on my observations. I have also noted other times when I felt you should clarify/correct your articles but you have chosen not to do so. Of course, this is somewhat subjective on my part.
One of the main reasons of reviewing a fellow student of Quran's work (whether it be mine or yours etc) is so if there are errors, they can be clarified or corrected, so we can improve our understanding. Let me cite an easy to verify example:
In these articles (one (http://quransmessage.com/articles/quran%20salaat%20FM3.htm) and two (http://quransmessage.com/articles/prayer%20without%20hadith%20FM3.htm)) you clearly state a prostration is involved in salat based on 4:102. However, after discussion with myself, you said:
source (http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=477.msg5387#msg5387)
"You have respectfully, yet without warrant, inferred a 'physical prostration'. If we simply allow the primary meaning of the word SJD to remain operative (i.e. SJD = humility, pay respect, honour, salute and humble), then salat can end once the spiritual experience of prayer is completed irrespective of whether or not this means a physical prostration."
Yes that is correct. I explained what I meant by 'Then when they have prostrated' as simply referring to 'the condition when they have completed their reverence to God (i.e. their prayer). This may or may not include prostration.
I consider this a significant clarification of your view, and such clarification is important because without it, it can mislead others about your view and/or what The Quran says. A case in point being forum member saba (http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=477.msg5388#msg5388) who was under the impression you took it to mean a physical prostration only in 4:102. No-one can really blame her if they read those two aforementioned articles.
As I said, take your time in responding to the article (http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html), but please bear in mind your salat timing article will be read by others in the meantime. If there are errors in it, they also may be misled.
Kind regards,
Wakas
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Wa alaikum assalam Wakas
As far as I know I have never corrected my articles based on your observations. However in the course of our discussions I may have clarified my position but that is expected if one seeks elaboration. There is a difference between correction and clarification.
You said:
“It is ironic to think the time you have spent non-replying (multiple times now) you could have easily replied to the first "clear and irrefutable error" I highlighted, which is a fairly simple one to clarify.”
There is no irony. I just feel apathy dealing with your tedious repetitive queries on the same laboured topic of ‘salaat’.
Your responses are tedious and the more you continue with this line of discussion with direct and indirect badgering seeking a response, the less likely I am ever to read your attempted rebuttal. Like I said, I do not agree with your approach and methodology to the Quran and I have already spent much time with dealing with your queries. I have so far found nothing new in your approach.
With regards your attempted rebuttal I have made my intentions very clear so please do not speak to me about this topic again.
May I respectfully remind you of forum policy 2(d). Please desist and do not write to me again until I deem it apt to respond on your attempted rebuttal.
Regards,
Joseph
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I consider this a significant clarification of your view, and such clarification is important because without it, it can mislead others about your view and/or what The Quran says. A case in point being forum member saba (http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=477.msg5388#msg5388) who was under the impression you took it to mean a physical prostration only in 4:102. No-one can really blame her if they read those two aforementioned articles.
Salaam Wakas. Here you again once again going over the same old same old again. Let me tell you what I THINK. Having read the exchange between you and br. Joseph, I think he completely made his position clear and defeated all your wrong arguments. That is my view. PERIOD! I don't see any contradiction. From what I can see...4:102 still speaks about PHYSICAL PROSTRATION. Yes, 'sujood' can have the main meaning of humility etc but given the situation of 4:102 it implies physical prostration. That is what I understood from the response you are talking about .... that it first means 'humility' etc and one of the ways it is shown is by physical prostration as in 4:102. To be honest, I am also getting sick and tired of your constant bickering and nit picking over this issue. In future, please don't involve me in your discussions about this topic. Thanks! Saba
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Dear All,
Everyone has expressed their position on this and made their intentions clear. This thread is now closed before it turns into a personal exchange.
Thanks