QM Forum
The Quran => General Discussions => Topic started by: IjazAhmad on December 01, 2014, 10:44:19 PM
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Salamun alaika br. Joseph and all!
A Mumin is someone who Believes in God, his angels, Messengers, scriptures and the J-day.
Many Muslims differ about the Torah, whether it is corrupted or not. Can we/I derive guidance, and follow the Torah?
But when there came unto them the Truth from Our presence, they said: Why is he not given the like of what was given unto Moses? Did they not disbelieve in that which was given unto Moses of old? They say: Two magics that support each other; and they say: Lo! in both we are disbelievers. Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Then bring a scripture from the presence of Allah that giveth clearer guidance than these two (that) I may follow it, if ye are truthful. (28:48-49).
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Greetings IjazAhmad.
It is interesting to note that Qoran says the following:
[Qoran 5:48] Then we revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them. You shall rule among them in accordance with God's revelations, and do not follow their wishes if they differ from the truth that came to you.....
[Qoran 7:52] We have given them a scripture that is fully detailed, with knowledge, guidance, and mercy for the people who believe.
[Qoran 10:37] This Qoran could not possibly be authored by other than God. It confirms all previous messages, and provides a fully detailed scripture. It is infallible, for it comes from the Lord of the universe.
Qoran confirms "Torah", following Qoran is following Torah and all the past messages:
[Qoran 39:28] An Arabic Qoran, without any ambiguity, that they may be righteous.
[Qoran 4:82] Why do they not study the Quran carefully? If it were from other than God, they would have found in it numerous contradictions.*
Yes ,if you can find the "Original Torah" you would find that it agrees with Qoran. Also:
[Qoran 54:17] We made the Qoran easy to learn. Does any of you wish to learn?
If we have Qoran, we have Torah and all the past messages!
We need to take the words of Qoran seriously and not be like those who received Torah and "threw GOD s words behind their back".
Hopefully the messenger will not say about us:
[Qoran 25:30] The messenger said, "My Lord, my people have deserted this Qoran."
Qoran ,if we have come across it, is our torah, Injeel...and all other scriptures.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Shalom / peace goodlogic .... >>
Qoran confirms "Torah", following Qoran is following Torah and all the past messages:
..are you saying that the Quran has all the Torah laws and all the details that the Torah had in the Quran? Also what do you mean by the 'original Torah'???..... i thought that the Quran spoke about the Torah that was there at the time of the prophet.....what torah were the Jewish folk reading? the original one or a corrupt one?
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Dear brother IjazAhmad,
As-salamu alaykum
The Quran implicitly ratifies the integrity of the previous scriptures. The verses you have shared clearly indicate that guidance is present in the previous scriptures. There is no ambiguity within those verses. Please see posts below [1] & [2] where I have cited the very same verses you have done underscoring these sentiments.
Dear Duster - You are absolutely correct. There is absolutely no warrant for the assertion or implication that the scriptures that the People of the Book were reading during Prophet Muhammad's ministry were wholly corrupt or were 'lost'. In fact, the Quran makes it absolutely clear that it supports the integrity of the Scriptures in multifaceted ways and often refers to it. However, for believers, the Quran remains the final criterion to judge.
005.043
But why do they come to you for decision, when they have (their own) Torah before them? therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not People of Faith.
005.047
"Let the people of the Gospel judge by what God has revealed in it. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God has revealed, they are those who rebel (Arabic: Fasiquna)."
005.068
"Say: "O People of the Book! you have no ground to stand upon unless you firmly stand by (Arabic: Tuqimu) the Torah, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that comes to you from thy Lord, that increases in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But do not grieve over disbelieving people"
We even have complete canonised Bibles that predate the Quran. The Codex Sinaiticus, the earliest complete Christian Bible circa 350 CE (Approximately 250 years before the revelation of the Quran), is considered one of the best texts in Greek of the New Testament along with the manuscript of the Codex Vaticanus. Alexandrian manuscripts are well known to scholars as representing some of the 'best' manuscripts.
Notwithstanding that certain scriptures were given more emphasis in different congregations and certain traditions were also prevalent, it is not too difficult to determine what kind of scriptures in general would be read by the Jews and Christians during the prophetic ministry as a general canon form was already in situ amongst the People of the Book.
I have discussed this further in articles reference [3] and post reference [4] below.
I hope this helps, God willing
Joseph
REFERENCES:
[1] Studying the Bible as Another Source for Guidance
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/396647927139007?stream_ref=10
[2] The Two Guides - The Quran and the Bible
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/300599863410481
[3] 'Between his Hands' or 'Before It' (Ma Bayna Yadayhi)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/between%20hands%20or%20before%20it%20FM3.htm
[4] Lambasting the Bible
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=146
[5] Beautiful Psalms
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/349764368445340
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Thank you everyone for the answers - thank you brother joseph for a detailed answer! :)
Wa'salaam!
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Shalom / peace brother joseph >> Thank you so much for your response, verses and the additional links...it makes perfect sense...thank you.
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Greetings Duster.
No,I am not saying Qoran has the details or laws of the Torah . Neither am I saying that today s Torah is different from the past Torah. I am saying Qoran by itself is sufficient:
[Qoran 14:1] A.L.R. A scripture that we revealed to you, in order to lead the people out of darkness into the light - in accordance with the will of their Lord - to the path of the Almighty, the Praiseworthy.
[Qoran 5:48] Then we revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them. ....
Of course Qoran tells us that God's scriptures, preached by all of His messengers, are all valid source of guidance. Messengers of God are sent as mercy for the sole duty of directing us to the source of guidance, GOD s scripture. However Qoran being the latest one is enough for salvation:
[Qoran 46:12] Before this, the book of Moses provided guidance and mercy. This too is a scripture that confirms, in Arabic, to warn those who transgressed, and to give good news to the righteous.
[Qoran 5:46] Subsequent to them, we sent Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the previous scripture, the Torah. We gave him the Gospel, containing guidance and light, and confirming the previous scriptures, the Torah, and augmenting its guidance and light, and to enlighten the righteous.
[Qoran 3:3] He sent down to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming all previous scriptures, and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel
[Qoran 3:4] before that, to guide the people, and He sent down the statute book. Those who disbelieve in God's revelations incur severe retribution. God is Almighty, Avenger.
Yes indeed everything we need is in Qoran:
[Qoran 17:9] This Qoran guides to the best path, and brings good news to the believers who lead a righteous life, that they have deserved a great recompense.
[Qoran 27:76] This Qoran settles many issues for the Children of Israel; issues that they are still disputing.
[Qoran 27:77] And most assuredly, it is a guide and mercy for the believers.
By all means read,study the bible as well. There is some excellent advice/guidance/history...But Qoran warns those rejecting its message ,once they are aware/familiar...
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Shalom / peace goodlogic ..so what did you mean when you said the following>>>?
Yes ,if you can find the "Original Torah" you would find that it agrees with Qoran. Also:
What do you mean by the 'Original Torah'??
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Greetings Duster.
What I mean by "original " is Torah as first written.
For example GOD said Moses was given the" tablets" Written for him, where are they now?
I know there are surviving bits of many old scriptures here and there, but mainly we have translated "bibles"and chosen fragments put together. Most of the bibles are translated texts.
I will also call translated Qoran, if it does not contain the "original "arabic , as not original.
Hope that clarifies what I meant.
Of course if one was to produce the Torah, Injeel or any other old scripture in its original language intact, then I will stand corrected.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Shalom / peace goodlogic ....
>>>I am even more confused with your statement now...
See here you say>>>>
Yes ,if you can find the "Original Torah" you would find that it agrees with Qoran.
Which means, that the Torah that is not 'original' will not agree with the Quran. Its simple deduction......>>>>right???
e.g. original torah = agree with the Quran
not original torah = will not agree with the Quran
...Then in the next post you seem to contradict yourself by saying >>>>>
Neither am I saying that today s Torah is different from the past Torah.
So if today's torah is not different from the past Torah, then why are you saying>>>>>
there are surviving bits of many old scriptures here and there,
you see how confusing your posts are???
Now ....when the Quran was telling jews and christians to go back to their books, why would it be telling them to go back to the original Torah if they did not have them? What torah was the Quran referring to when it asked them to go back to their books and why would it say that if they only had 'surviving bits' here and there????
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Greetings Duster.
Sorry brother for "confusing "you.
My statement is simple, Torah that GOD sent originally will contain the same message today as it did then. However I have not seen it. Qoran tells me about it. Qoran confirms it existed. Since both Torah and Qoran are from GOD, then they "agree" the main message.
Please provide me with the "Torah" that Qoran is speaking about. Where is it? That is why I said "surviving bits " . I have not come across all of it?
When I read the bible I recognise some "bits" of Torah that Qoran mentions, that is what I mean by "bits here and there". But the bible is not the Torah.
Where can I find,the Torah that Qoran was asking them to go back to .at this age?I have not come across it? I will gladly correct my view, if found/exists somewhere.
Thank you brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Shalom / peace goodlogic ...>>
I have to follow up, because your response is not completely making sense to me .......>>>>
What do you mean by:
Neither am I saying that today s Torah is different from the past Torah.
>>>>Is today's Torah different from the past Torah or not???? as you seem to suggesting in the above response that it is not.....pls can you just answer this one question for me now pls...thanks>>
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Brother Good logic, selam aleikoum, sorry if I'm interfering,
From what I see, you expect every previous scripture of God to agree 100% with the Quran. Well, while they may agree in many points (since their source is the same), they can't agree 100%. You know why?
Because the previous scriptures (including Torah) were meant for a certain time and place, they were temporary and befitting the circumstances for the time they were sent, they weren't meant to be universal laws for all time. The main laws were the same, it's just the way they applied were adjusted by God in accordance with prevalent circumstances and needs. But the Quran was meant to be a universal law for all times and circumstances. So, while still being the same law, the way of their appliance was adjusted so it could fit perfectly with all the times to come. For example, the fasting still remained prescribed for us "just like it was to those before us", but the adjustment was that the relations with our spouse are allowed during the night (because God with infinite knowledge knew that there will come a time such as ours that evil temptations will be everywhere around, so it would be terribly hard to us). Or another example: the adultery is still forbidden, as a great sin that it is, but the death penalty was revoked, it got substituted with lashes and never being allowed to marry other than adulterer or polytheist, God with infinite knowledge knew that there will come a time when this horrible way of punishment (stoning to death) will be unfitting with people's way of living and judging.
That's what the jews of the time of Prophet couldn't understand, that's why they were constantly pointing that since there are differences in laws of Quran and Torah, Quran can't be from the same God of the Torah. That's why God answered to them "We never substitute a verse except that it is a better one".
It's like us humans when we make an amendment to an existing law of constitution - the law is still prevalent, just with some adjustments to fit with a sudden need that a society might be facing.
God bless you all, I hope I helped a bit :)
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Dear all,
Further to the wise comments made by sister Seraphina, I would also like to present some additional elucidatory comments which may assist with this discussion, God willing.
From a Quranic perspective, it does not matter whether or not we have the original tablets consisting of the instructions (maw'izah) and complete explanations (tafsilan'li'kulli shayin) given to Prophet Moses (7:145)
It also does not matter whether we physically possess the original Scriptures taken down or possibly copied verbatim by the contemporaries of Prophets Moses and Aaron.
What matters most from a Quranic perspective at the time of revelation is whether or not the instructions / admonition / exhortation (maw'izah) that the Children of Israel were given (5:46; 7:154) as 'guidance' (huda) was accessible / present with the Jews at the time of the prophetic ministry, regardless of form. In other words, was this guidance lost or not at the time of the Quran's revelation?
The answer from a Quran's perspective appears to be not. In other words, they had the guidance and exhortation with them or at least an ability to discern. That is why the Quran instructed the Children of Israel to go back to their Scriptures (5:43; 5:68).
It would be pointless for the Quran to instruct the Children of Israel to go back and judge from their Torah, if they only had parts, sparse or little or no discernible instructions from the Torah given to Prophet Moses.
Furthermore as I have shared in my previous post and accompanying articles, the prophet undoubtedly came face to face with what the Children of Israel were reading from the scriptures (note the word 'liqa' from the verb 'laqiya' in verse 32:23 which means ‘encounter’ or ‘face to face meet’).
032:023
"And certainly We gave Moses the Scripture, so do not be in doubt encountering it / coming face to face with it / meeting it (Arabic: liqaihi) and We made it a guide for the Children of Israel"
Also the Torah is but one book amongst other books that were given to the prophets after Prophet Moses and further inspired writings. The Tanakh is a canon of the Hebrew Bible consisting of many Books of which the Torah (proper) is a part. Notwithstanding the fact that at times aspects of the Scriptures may have been concealed (akhfa - 5:15), The Children of Israel arguably had access to all these Scriptures with them or at least the main guidance contained originally within them ("...and what was given to the prophets from their Lord..." - 2:136).
As I have already shared with citation of evidential support, we know what the canon Scriptures of the Children of Israel would have looked like in the 7th century.
Therefore, it is thus futile to demand or imply the importance of acquiring ‘original scriptures’, at least from the perspective of the Quran’s revelation which acted as a guard (muhaymin - 5:48) and criterion (furqan).
I hope this helps, God willing.
Joseph
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Thank you brother Joseph, may God bless you :)
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Shalom / peace brother Joseph>>>>> thank you again for your detailed clarification...I do agree with your position and what Seraphina is saying ....My confusion really is with what goodlogic is stating as I am not sure whether according to him today's torah is different from the past torah.....??? I feel i am getting mixed messages from him so i look to see what response i get....
Neither am I saying that today s Torah is different from the past Torah.
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Greetings Duster.
Is today s Torah the same as the original Torah?
I do not have the original Torah , nor do I know what exactly what makes up today s Torah from the texts/bible.
Who can tell you what today s Torah is? Is it one book or a collection of few books? Some do not even agree on this?
We have the bible today as well as other texts that could include Torah.
Why does GOD renew the scripture? Do we have the newest scripture intact and original? This is the most important question
The answer to this last question is-Yes we have Qoran intact!
So my answer to your question is we have Qoran and on its own it is sufficient for salvation.
If you find out what is Torah today and we also find the original Torah ,then we can answer that question. But it will be futile ,because we have all we need with Qoran.
Hope that makes sense.
Thank you.
Peace.
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Shalom / peace goodlogic .. sorry...but i feel you have just repeated what you said before but not answering the specific question.....you made a claim so it is only right that you defend it .....>>>>
On one side...you repeat by saying that we don't have the original Torah but then why then did you say what you said below? Did you make a mistake????? .....
Neither am I saying that today s Torah is different from the past Torah.
>>>because the above comment from you means today's torah is the same as the past torah. You said that and also you are saying it is not.....See the confusion???? >>>
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Greetings Duster.
Here is what I said:
No,I am not saying Qoran has the details or laws of the Torah . Neither am I saying that today s Torah is different from the past Torah. I am saying Qoran by itself is sufficient:
Here is what I should have said to explain it further:
]No,I am not saying Qoran has the details or laws of the Torah . Neither am I saying that today s Torah( If it can be found) is different from the past Torah( If that could also be found to make the comparison). I am saying Qoran by itself is sufficient:
Since we have Qoran today, it all becomes irrelevant.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Brother Good logic, I would suggest you to read brother Joseph's answers at this post. You seem to be missing some points regarding what Quran says about Torah and other past scriptures. To be honest, Duster is not the only one who is sensing you contradict yourself in your answers, I have difficulties understanding you as well, because in your post you say something, then in other post you say something else, and then you say something like 'I didn't mean it that way'. I would like you answer a question for me, if I'm not asking too much:
If Torah of today is the same Torah of 1400 years ago, and this Torah is corrupted as you claim, then how can God ask the jews to get back to their Torah? Doesn't God know that the Torah they have is corrupted?
As for ilustration: It's like I knew someone stole your car and it's never been found, and yet I still tell you "why you walk on foot when you have your car? get inside of it and start driving". If this type of contradiction done by me (a human being) wouldn't make any sense, how can it make sense from God, who's clear on important matters such as these?
Selam, God bless you :)
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Greetings Seraphina.
I read brother Joseph s posts. I am none the wiser where the Torah is.
You are asking the following:
If Torah of today is the same Torah of 1400 years ago, and this Torah is corrupted as you claim, then how can God ask the jews to get back to their Torah? Doesn't God know that the Torah they have is corrupted?
Please show me where I said it is corrupted? I said I do not know where it is today. How could I have claimed it is corrupted?
Please show me where I can find the Torah today? Is it in the bible? Which books of the bible?
Thank you sister.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Dear Good Logic,
As-salamu alaykum
You shared:
“I read brother Joseph s posts. I am none the wiser where the Torah is.”
With respect, if you have not been able to deduce from my posts hitherto the following simple points, then with respect again, I am saddened and disappointed and retain concerns as to what posts you have been reading and how you have interpreted them.
- God asked the Children of Israel to judge by their books. That means that the laws to judge by, were present with them at the time of the prophet's ministry in the Scriptures they were reading.
- We know in the main what the canon Old Testament would have looked like at the time of Prophet Muhammad as we have extant copies of the canon from before the Quran was revealed. I gave examples of the Codex Sinaiticus, the earliest complete Christian Bible circa 350 CE (Approximately 250 years before the revelation of the Quran). This includes Books from the Old Testament (in Greek supporting / establishing the original text of the Septuagint) and the complete New Testament. We also have access to the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide further support and knowledge as to what the Old Testament canon would have looked like before the Prophetic ministry.
- Notwithstanding emphasis on certain Scriptures, traditions and beliefs, The Arab Jewish communities would have arguably not have completely re-invented their own Torah or Scriptures. There would have been a largely agreed canon which would not have been drastically different from the canons we have access to today and those that preceded them. Whatever the canon, the Torah laws must have been present, otherwise there would be no point in God referring them back to what was with them of the Scriptures.
- The Torah (or Pentateuch) is but one part of the Tanakh which is a canon of Scriptures which also includes inspired writings from the prophets after Prophet Moses. ("...and what was given to the prophets from their Lord..." - 2:136). The Tanakh also includes the Psalms (the Zabur given to David - 4:163; 17:55; 35:25). The Torah most specifically refers to the first five books of the Tanakh. There is no evidence that these laws that the Quran referred to cannot be found in these Books. In fact, there are many mitzvot (commandments) that can be found in the Torah even today, as they could in the Torah at the time of Prophet Muhammad. I would kindly and politely suggest that you conduct your own research.
As I have said to you before:
"There are many readers of this forum that come to seek answers and not to become further confused amongst a midst of unevidenced voices and opinions. Increasingly, I will be looking forward to curtail potentially endless debates on this forum. I have grown to become tired of tedious discussions and increasingly aware that forums can quickly become a minefield of dumped thoughts which become increasingly difficult to decipher with useful information as time goes on. Thus moving forward, I will attempt to avoid this as best I can to continue to maintain a high level of discussion and information base on this forum, God willing." [1]
Going forward, I would kindly request that no further responses are made on this thread as the original poster (IjazAhmad) has already been satisfied with the responses provided to him in reply #4 and I am also content that suitable responses have been provided to him.
I would like to thank both Duster and Seraphina for their thoughtful comments in this thread. This is really appreciated.
Regards,
Joseph
REFERENCE:
[1] How does the Quranic law of retribution work ?
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1446.msg6637#msg6637
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Greetings Good logic,
Here are some of your quotes that I was talking about:
"Yes ,if you can find the "Original Torah" you would find that it agrees with Qoran." So the original Torah is lost (since you say'if you can find it'), and the Torah we have is corrupted, since it doesn't agree with Quran at some aspects. You don't say it directly, but that's what you imply by saying this phrase. Furthermore, simply by using the term "the original Torah", you are showing us that you believe there are two Torahs: one original and one false. If anyone can understand these sayings of yours in a different manner, then please elucidate me, because that's the only meaning I get from thse words of yours.
Next, to my surprise, you say: "Neither am I saying that today s Torah is different from the past Torah." This is where you lost me: Is today's Torah different from past Torah or not?
"Please provide me with the "Torah" that Qoran is speaking about. Where is it?" Here you go again with the ''one original and one false Torah'' again. The Quran answers this question, for example, in 5:43: "But why do they come to you for decision, when they have (their own) Torah before them? therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not People of Faith." Does this ring a bell?
"But the bible is not the Torah." Absolutely correct! The Bible contains nearly 66 books, and the Torah is made up of only 5 of them: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy.
Anyways, I don't want to go back to things already mentioned in my posts or Duster's posts, and regarding the changes between Torah and Quran, I talked about it in a previous post.
I'm trying to understand you, but you're constantly changing your words, so you end up confusing us. If I'd be the only one confused, I'd assume it's my fault, but since I'm not the only one experiencing it, it is your way of expression or understanding that's at fault.
Selam, God bless you too :)
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Thank you sister Seraphina for your response. I have now locked the topic as I feel the matter has been exhausted. Thank you so much for your contributions :)