QM Forum
The Quran => General Discussions => Topic started by: Seraphina on January 11, 2015, 11:32:31 PM
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Quran, 7:20 (Yusuf Ali) :"Then began Satan to whisper suggestions to them, bringing openly before their minds all their shame that was hidden from them (before): he said: "Your Lord only forbade you this tree, lest ye should become angels or such beings as live for ever."
This verse popped into my sight during my daily Quran reading/studying. This insinuation of the Devil is something to reflect upon, and very thought-provoking. Here's why.
As we are aware, this conversation took place during Adam and Eve's sinless condition, while they hadn't approached the forbidden fruit yet, and were living in Paradise. Paradise, as we know, is an eternal abode - whoever enters there, dwells there forever. Why would Satan tempt them with eternity if they already had the eternity? Weren't Adam and Eve created to abide eternally in Paradise, but after they disobeyed their Lord they were sent down to earth to live ''for an appointed (limited) time''? It just doesn't make sense to me that they would be created to live in Paradise for a limited time as mortals, and after their death what would they be rewarded with? Paradise? Furthermore, if they were mortals, why would God punish their disobedience with something they already had-mortality?
I would be so thankful if brother Joseph would give us an opinion on this matter, although I'm aware of his busy schedule and limited time. May Allah ease your works and tasks,and give you health and strength, brother Joseph :)
Your sister Seraphina Rosa.
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Asalamu Alykum Seraphina
I think the article below will give you some insight about what your thinking about Insha'Allah
ADAM (pbuh) AND JANNAH - AN EARTHLY ABODE OR PARADISE?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/adam%20and%20jannah%20FM3.htm
Peace
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Thank you brother Hamzeh, but, as you might have noticed, my question had nothing to do with the real location of paradise or whether he was created in earth or another location. My question was in regards to Adam's nature before he ate the fruit (let me repeat it again):
Did he lose immortality after eating that fruit, or he never had it to begin with? As we know, The Quran is crystal-clear: the paradise is an eternal abode and those who abide in it, abide in it for ever. And if Adam was placed there, that's because he was immortal, just like will be those who are sent there after the day of judgment. The moment he was banished from paradise, he was sent down to earth for a limited time. His life as 'an appointed time'' is never mentioned while he was in paradise, but only after disobeying God, when he was banished from paradise (2:38). Now, if he was created immortal, why would Satan tempt him with something he already had:(immortality)? And if he was created mortal, why after eating the fruit was his life reduced into ''an appointed time'', when it was an appointed time anyway, since he was mortal? And how would God place a mortal being in an eternal abode (paradise)?
You see, as an ardent and enthusiastic student of brother Joseph, I have read all of his articles (ok, maybe that's a big word, let's say 99% of his articles), and everytime I ask a question here, you can be sure that I have searched through his articles, and through this forum, and I haven't found something that answers that question. Otherwise I would never disturb anyone with questions that are already answered.
I think these answers might be beneficial for others as well, since we are asked all the time how were we created, why were we banished from paradise, is there a way to go back there, and so on.
God bless you and thank you for your input,
Your sister Seraphina :)
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Asalamu Alykum Sister Seraphina
The reason I suggested that article is because it explains what your asking.
First Adam was not created in the Paradise that the believers are promised. He was not created in the eternal Paradise. He was created in a paradise in the earth itself. A garden somewhere in the earth which in arabic is still Jannah. And he was told to go down from it( Ih'bi'tu). Now this doesn't mean that he necessarily went from the eternal paradise to earth. It can simply imply God has commanded him to go from a higher state to a lower one in this Earth that he was created in. The supporting verses are below which the article clarifies.
020.117
"Then We said: "O Adam! indeed, this is an enemy to you and your wife: so let him not get you both from the Garden (Jannate), so that you would suffer".
020.118
"Surely it is (ordained) for you that you shall not be hungry therein nor to go naked"
020.119
"And that you shall not suffer from thirst nor shall you feel the heat of the sun"
So perhaps he was never made to live forever, but was made to never go hungry, never go naked, and never get hot. But because he sinned God has taken those blessing from him and was made to go down from a higher state or luxury state to a lower poorer state.
The article further clarifies how the word "ih'bitu" (go down) is used other places in the Quran.
'GO DOWN'
007:024
"(God) said "Go down (Arabic: ih'bitu) (from hence) with enmity between yourselves. And on earth will be your dwelling place and livelihood for a time""
The expression 'ih'bitu' is often understood to mean a movement from paradise to planet Earth as a shift between two very different locations. From a Quran's perspective, there is no warrant for such a restrictive interpretation.
We note the same expression used for the Children of Israel who were not in any other location but planet Earth.
002:061 (part)
"...Go down (ih'bitu) to Egypt...
The verb 'habata' (ih'bit) simply means a change of state from one (arguably better) to another, to descend from a better state of being to a lower one, a lower rank, state of dignity or a change in condition, to become degraded, or to go forth (as seen in verse 11:48).[1]
Adam never had immortality to begin with. Thats what the devil promised him.
And Adam was not placed in the Paradise that is eternal. He was not created or placed in a Paradise that was somewhere other than the Earth. The Paradise(Garden) that the Quran is speaking about in the context of Adam is a place right here on Earth.
There is at times where I read Joseph's articles and I thought I understood them, but when I reread them again I get a more better understanding of what he meant. I think if you go back and reread the article it will explain what your asking unless I don't get what your asking.
Peace Seraphina
[1]http://quransmessage.com/articles/adam%20and%20jannah%20FM3.htm
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For me, when I read the Quran the verses where the Devil tries to deceive Adam and Eve by promising them eternal life clearly means that they were not immortal:
But Satan whispered to them to make apparent to them that which was concealed from them of their private parts. He said, "Your Lord did not forbid you this tree except that you become angels or become of the immortal."
- http://quran.com/7/20
Maybe some readers get confused with them being in gardens of the hereafter which is not the case as explained by Joseph Islam.
I'd also add that even if Adam and Eve did not sin/disobey it does not mean that God may not have asked them or their descendants to leave the garden at some other point in time in order to test them with hardship in the life of this world. Which means we can't "blame" Adam and Eve for being expelled from the garden and for being the cause of us having to work for our living on earth and having hardship.
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Dear brother Hamzeh, thank you for your patience in this discussion, and dear brother Samson, welcome in forum, and thanks for participating in discussion with me :)
I've been going through articles of brother Joseph in this topic, and in Quranic story of this event, and here are my conclusions, (which I can't guarantee are 100% correct, only God knows best, but I tried my best to understand as best as I could).
1)Universe (including earth) was created in stages. Seems that Earth was also meant to be a Paradise in stages - first, a small portion of it was Paradise, a garden in which were to be placed the two first creatures, and as they would multiply, the garden would expand, until the whole earth would turn into a Paradise.
2)God creates a creature from clay, to be placed in earth as a vicegerent. This creature, Adam, is created in the best of stature, and is given a free will. As a vicegerent of God, he would inherit the earth that would be a paradise - an eternal abode of felicity, where he wouldn't have to worry or grieve: no hunger, no thirst, no shame of nakedness, no illnesses, no death. God would provide for him all the best, eternally...as long as he proves to be exercising justly his free will. As long as he was proving to be worthy of being honored as a vicegerent on earth. And it was not a difficult task: one fruit was not to be consumed. He had everything good and delicious he wished for, he wouldn't feel the neediness of a fruit.
3)Our God informs us in the Quran that he is fully aware of his creatures: what they whisper inside their hearts, what they feel, what they wish for, what they dream for. So, He is aware that one of His creatures is developing jealousy and hatred towards Adam, and towards his exalted status. This creature, Iblees, the jinn created from smokeless fire, considers himself to be better than Adam, and therefore, more worthy of Adam's status. But God never punishes his creatures for a mere thought or feeling. Furthermore, if He would punish Iblees without him exposing himself, his perfect justice would be put in doubt in front of other creatures that would arguably be surprised and ask why (let us remember when angels were surprised ad asked God why was he creating a creature which would shed blood on earth).
4)God creates a situation where Iblees would expose himself. He gathers all of the creatures, and a command is given through angels:"Prostrate before Adam!". Iblees's pride couldn't bare it - his jealousy can't be hidden anymore, and he doesn't prostrate. God demands an explanation, and he answers "I'm better than him. You created me from fire, and him you created from clay!"Never would I prostrate to a human whom You created out of clay from an altered black mud."(7:12, 15:33). God's punishment is inevitable now, and Iblees is banished from Paradise. His hatred towards Adam and his progeny is even greater now, he doesn't have to be hidden enemy anymore, now he's an open enemy and swears vengeance. He asks God to reprieve him his punishment, for he will prove to God those very people that God punished him for, are the same that will disobey him like he(Iblees) did.
5)The place where Iblees was banished from was Paradise. Being in Paradise together with angels and other jinns, all of them would arguably have heard and known the command given to Adam not to go near the tree, because he would become a wrongdoer. And a wrongdoer loses the eternal abode in Paradise. His sufferings and death is inevitable, and one day his answerability about the way he used free will is also inevitable. Arrogance and narcissism always raise self-confidence - He is so confident he will make them wrongdoers that he asks God to reprieve him until the day they are raised from dead to answer to God for their choices. God reprieves him, and warns Adam and his spouse to beware of him, because he wants to expel them from Paradise.
6)Iblees starts immediately to work towards his goal. He knows that the forbidden fruit is the only chance he has, the only thing that could serve his purpose. So, he has to make them eat from it. How?
"Your Lord did not forbid you this tree except that you become angels or become of the immortal."(7:20). When we examine this verse, we can see something interesting in Iblees's words. As we know, angels are also creatures of the same God as us, but they have no physical body, they are very powerful (example: the way two of them destroyed the people of Lot), and they don't need to eat or drink like us humans. As to humans, they are of lesser power than angels, and they need food and drink, which was provided from God (ever since humanity exists), what made them somehow more dependent on God. By telling them that if they ate the fruit they would become 'like angels, or become of the immortals'', he was insinuating that they would become a type of immortals similar to angels: more powerful, and in no need of God's provisions of food and drink, which means more independence from God . He was instilling in them the greed for more than they were given - the same feelings he had in himself. He succeeded, and they ate the fruit. The consequences?:
"And We said, "Go down, [all of you], as enemies to one another, and you will have upon the earth a place of settlement and provision for a time."(2:36).This is where Adam and Eve's life appears for the first time as limited/finite. They had lost immortality and felicity - outside the Paradise they were going to face suffering, and finally death. But Allah accepted their repentance the moment they pleaded for forgiveness, so there was hope that they would regain the Paradise they lost - that depended from their obedience from then until their death. Allah promised to take care also for the progeny of Adam and Eve, that would be born in earth during this time, and that was not responsible for being outside the Paradise (they were affected by the choice of their parents, but they were not guilty of it, nauzubilah). So, since they were to be born in a life full of hardships, and since they would be even more vulnerable to Devil's traps then Adam and Eve, God would personally take care of them and give them a chance to get the Paradise that was originally meant for them too:
"We said, "Go down from it, all of you. And when guidance comes to you from Me, whoever follows My guidance - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve."(2:38).
"Descend from Paradise - all, [your descendants] being enemies to one another. And if there should come to you guidance from Me - then whoever follows My guidance will neither go astray nor suffer."(20:123).
It is up to our choice to follow our Lord's guidance (Quran), and to regain eternall life and happiness, and the Paradise that Devil swore we will lose.
As I said, these are solely the conclusions from my research on this topic, and an answer from brother Joseph would be extremely helpful, but anyways, in the end, God knows best.
Your sister Seraphina.
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Peace Seraphina.
In my opinion you are doing a good job by trying to analyse and check all the details to make sense of who /where was Adam and why we were created.
That is the best way to go.
There is nothing wrong in reading other opinions/explanations and take what agrees with Qoran.
For example here is another point of view, if you have read/seen it before, ignore it:
http://submission.org/App7.html
At the end , keep studying Qoran and asking the Author, the creator of everything,, to explain it to you.
Do not hurry understanding Qoran, GOD is aware of all those who sincerely want to grasp HIS message .
May the Lord bless you and answer your queries for you.
Peace.
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Well, that's what Allah wants me to do brother :) he gave me the logic and the ability to reason, and he gave me the Quran, for which he says that it is a book to reflect upon. People want to have everything said in detail, they don't realize that Quran doesn't say everything in great detail, it is up to us to analyze and reflect upon details of events and upon the inner world of the personages that take part in it. There are things that are not told straightforward in Quran, but we find out about them after studying what we have in the Quran, and reaching our conclusions. Thank you for your kind words, peace to you too :)
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Shalom / peace goodlogic .... I agree with you that everyone should try to use their own senses and read widely and I am very keen to read Seraphina's post...clearly she is a person that thinks!!!....however what i ...respectfully...take issue to is your constant use of Rashad Khalifa's translations on this forum and ..what it appears to me ....you quietly trying to promote the works of the submitters on this forum.....anyhow that is how it seems to me...That i feel has has been the main problem.... of many disagreements on this forum between you and others on this forum including bro joseph.....I have found that even when something is made simple / clear to you...you have ignored it and still take the viewpoint that the submitters group seem to take .....So - on one side you suggest to others to use their own mind..but on the other you seem to promote all the theologies of the submitters and often it seems to me that your main intention is to promote the submitters group / rasha khalifa's work on this forum......So it doesn't surprise me that you would post this link to the submitters group but making it appear that everyone should read widely...why didn't you provide the thoughts of someone else????.....I'm sure there is a policy on this forum for not making use of this forum to promote the views of other groups / people......????>>> Just an observations ...don't take it personally!
here is a link i found with many of your disagreements / posts where I also felt you seem to simply take the position of what the submitters group take.
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1483.msg6773#msg6773
If i may ask...can you provide me any areas of theologies or religious views in which you differ with Rashad Khalifa or the submitters group???
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Greetings Duster.
I have always tried to stay within the topic and when I have given my views or some links,I have done so in the belief that they give an opinion on the topic for people to check themselves and take the best or leave altogether.
I have no intention of promoting any sect or religion. I have always stood for "True Islam" which is total loyalty and submission to GOD Alone. That is the only religion acceptable to the creator. My site will confirm this for you:
http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/simple-and-universal-message/
I believe Qoran. I am loyal to GOD Alone. I do not belong to any sect or religion.
However if views/opinions/understandings are backed up from Qoran ,how can I disagree with the truth?
I agree with some of the views of this site as well.
Brother, I hope this clarifies for you .
I seek GOD Alone and the truth.
GOD less you.
Peace.
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Shalom brother Duster, and Peace brother Good logic
Brother Duster, thank you for your kind words :) Praised be our God (Alhamdulilah) if I am "a person that thinks", because that's the greatest gift Allah would have given me - the ability to reason, analyse, judge. And to be able to do it, He has been given me most of informations in the Quran. I can find out the little non mentionned peaces by using my logic/reason, and by analysing what the Quran says.
Brother Good logic, I didn't tell you this before bcs I didn't want to sound harsh, but I have the same issue like Duster: your Rashad-Khalifa-based answers. You claim to be a follower of the true Islam, and that's the goal of every member of this forum I guess. But the thing is, you keep giving support to the theories of a man who claimed to be a messenger of God and who threw doubts in veracity of Quran by claiming that two if its verses were false. Both of these claims can be proven as false from the Quran. Is this the true Islam you're talking about?
Please don't take it personally, and sorry I went off topic, but I felt it necessary to tell you this, as a sister advices her brother :)
God bless you both,
Your sister Seraphina
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However if views/opinions/understandings are backed up from Qoran ,how can I disagree with the truth?
Problem is that anyone can use that argument to back many different views/opinions/understandings. Most of them could be totally irrelevant/wrong. Determining what the truth is about historical events is extremely hard if not impossible since we can never truly know and can only make assumptions.
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Shalom /peace good logic ....you said
However if views/opinions/understandings are backed up from Qoran ,how can I disagree with the truth?
...but that is precisely the point I am making.......pls don't take me wrong...>>>i have noted that when your views are properly refuted with evidence ...you simply appear to ignore it.....I still think you are dismissing sincere concerns that brothers and sisters on this forum are sharing with you. You really may want to have a think about it.....
For example...very relevant to this topic....i read a powerful response against your points made in the posts here about why we are tested... http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1325.msg6186#msg6186
...point by point your view is refuted with evidence ...even others noted it ....yet again you completely dismissed it and once again you have pasted something from the submitters group again on this thread...no different from the viewpoints before..
This is not new...i have noticed others also have problems with your constant sharing of 19er stuff , and constant sharing of Rashad Khalifa's viewpoints...for example even on another forum ....on the free-minds forum someone said the following to you only yesterday !!!!>>>>>>
I do find your comment to be a little bit rude as well though. Did you read what I wrote here? What do you think of it? Comforting people that I'll be gone soon indirectly is not really the nicest thing, could you instead perhaps contribute more by letting me know what I've said you think is right or wrong?
I like what you've said about the Qur'an and your story of coming to Islam, but I became a little shaky when I saw perhaps a little too much support for the 19 stuff (which I am not denying, except you posted a video that suggested that two verses in the Qur'an, two very nice verses, are additions to the Qur'an in order to prove this 19 thing in every conceivable way, and I feel that is taking 19 over the Qur'an and Allah's promise that Allah adds or substracts, Allah causes to forget, Allah compiles and all that).
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607166.msg361836#msg361836
pls don't take it personally...only mean it in a good way and trying to help...but it is only up to you to simply dismiss it......>>>
I appreciate the efforts made on this forum to keep things really high level and evidence based and not just a hotch potch of different people saying what they want....this is the problem i have with other forums and free-minds...but to keep this forum of high quality i can understand why ......there is tighter control and focus....
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Greetings Duster.
What you have done is show me what others have said. Are you assuming they are right? Or are you sure they are right?
When we face GOD individually ,He will ask us if we have believed His message. Have we checked /investigated/aquired knowledge about Qoran?
We must investigate /be fair/ponder Qoran.
I am trying to follow GOD s law as directed here :42:13, 42:21, 5:48, 45:18.
And His sunna as directed here: 15:13, 17:77, 40:85, 48:23.
Follow only GOD s hadith as directed here: 39:23, 45:6, 68:44.
I also believe in all GOD s messengers as directed across all Qoran especially here: 25:27-29.
You and I know what the messenger is going to say on the day of judgement 25:30.
Since there are no intercessors/others responsible ...etc.I have to be sure I save my own neck. Why would I not search for the truth? should I accept what others advise,even if they are in agreement with each other, if it is not decreed in Qoran?
Let me hear/see points refuting any views that are not the truth using Qoran Alone.Then I will look at the evidence. So far if you look at what you said to me there are no such points made.
But I thank you for the advice .
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Shalom / peace goodlogic ....It seems to me that you have obviously not taken anything in..even though it was so sincerely meant ....>>> I have shown you a link in which your points were refuted individually by bro joseph....from the Quran and when it was shown to you ...yous simply dismissed it in favour of 'interpolations' and more 'interpolations'....and yet you talk about Quran.
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1325.msg6186#msg6186
>>>>You appear to completely dismiss it then and even now...It seems to me you have no intention to consider this point with any seriousness so I won't say any more for now....However...i still take issue with your constant 19er philosophy on this forum in the various ways you do it....no hard feelings ......Also...i find it in bad taste that you talk about reading widely....but in the end..you seem to remain restricted to the submitters / 19ers / Rashad Khalifa's philosophies...in the end ....each to their own...>>>
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When we face GOD individually ,He will ask us if we have believed His message. Have we checked /investigated/aquired knowledge about Qoran?
You and I know what the messenger is going to say on the day of judgement 25:30.
Since there are no intercessors/others responsible ...etc.I have to be sure I save my own neck. Why would I not search for the truth? should I accept what others advise,even if they are in agreement with each other, if it is not decreed in Qoran?
Good Logic,
What do you think God's message is? I get the impression that you are attempting to understand all the verses in the Quran in order to prepare yourself for questioning by God to see if you have understand all of it.
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Peace Duster.
You said I was shown from Qoran !
Have you overlooked this post from me?
Greetings Brother Joseph.
Thank you for your post.
Your quote: Therefore given your response, I understand that there is no explicit proof for the position you have posited.
You are entitled to your understanding of course.
However, taking the context of other verses, Qoran backs up the position I have posted. Why?
1-[ 38:69] and [43:5]clearly indicate something happened with us.
We are humans in this life,after the feud and the classification of Angels,other creation(animals..), humans and Jinns.It does not mean we will be "humans" after this life or we were humans before that?( 38:68)
Also how do we explain the two deaths?:
They will say, "Our Lord, you have put us to death twice,* and You gave us two lives; now we have confessed our sins. Is there any way out?"
قالوا رَبَّنا أَمَتَّنَا اثنَتَينِ وَأَحيَيتَنَا اثنَتَينِ فَاعتَرَفنا بِذُنوبِنا فَهَل إِلىٰ خُروجٍ مِن سَبيلٍ
I also stand with the claim Jinn are descendants of Satan: (18:50) and (7:27).
Because our life in this world is a series of tests designed to expose our polytheistic ideas, idol worship is the only unforgivable offence (4:48, 4:116).
The world is divinely designed to manifest our decision to uphold either God's absolute authority, or Satan's idolatrous views (67:1-2). Only those who are totally certain about God's absolute authority are redeemed (26:89).
This is my understanding.
I have not received an answer refuting two deaths and two lives? So shall I just ignore this verse? What does ""Our Lord, you have put us to death twice,* and You gave us two lives; now we have confessed our sins!. "mean?
These verses I mention in this post have not been explained to me or have they? Please show me where?
With all due respect, please explain to me the two deaths and the two lives that Qoran mentions, and I will stand corrected from the view of "why we were created" ?.
Thank you brother.
Peace.
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Peace samson.
I believe we must follow all Qoran. Every word must be taken seriously.
The word of our Lord is complete in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words.
Than you.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Shalom / peace goodlogic ....Yes you were shown from the Quran...just read the many statements you made and how they were individually refuted !!! just read them again if you kindly will!!!!
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1325.msg6190#msg6190
It seems you just don't want to accept them and I bet it is the same philosophy that the submitters have regarding this topic..So on one side you are prepared to ignore all the other verses and all your interpolations and statements that were not said explicitly in the Quran and all you have is a narrow string that you can't reconcile the verse of two lives and two deaths??????>>> ...how does that explain / support your position ???!
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Also let me say Goodlogic....there is a big difference with saying that we had existed in some form before our life here and then to make up elaborate stories that you have done in so many of your statements that can be found nowhere in the Quran ....For example you say "We are in this world because we committed a horrendous crime, and this life is our chance to redeem ourselves, denounce our crime, and rejoin God's kingdom. [38:69] .We failed to uphold GOD s authority." ...i mean this is the kind of stuff which you simply make up along with the submitters / Rashad Khalifa???? Also I found this>>> .....http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=116.msg301;topicseen#msg301 ...the Quran tells us to stick to those things which are clear....not to make things up without proof....
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Good Logic,
With all due respect, please explain to me the two deaths and the two lives that Qoran mentions, and I will stand corrected from the view of "why we were created" ?.
I've read Joseph Islam's view on the verse 7:172 regarding our supposed existence before this life.
Sahih International
And [mention] when your Lord took from the children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants and made them testify of themselves, [saying to them], "Am I not your Lord?" They said, "Yes, we have testified." [This] - lest you should say on the day of Resurrection, "Indeed, we were of this unaware."
I don't agree with his view on it and will create a separate thread to discuss my take on it. Maybe that would make more sense to you and some others on this forum or maybe I'll be corrected in my misunderstanding :).
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[post created by accident]
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Good Logic,
With all due respect, please explain to me the two deaths and the two lives that Qoran mentions, and I will stand corrected from the view of "why we were created" ?.
Optimist has already written a couple of very good posts which explain the two deaths. Have you read them?
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=865.msg3383#msg3383
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=865.msg3387#msg3387
In short there was no previous life or spiritual state before this life we are living now. We simply did not exist. Verse 7:172 is addressing the prophet Mohammed and his people so that they can't use the excuse that it was their earliest ancestors or their fathers which were idol worshippers and that the Quraish were simply following their traditions.
As to why we are created - the Quran simply says that we were created to worship God, to be vicegerents on Earth and so that God could see which one of us was best in conduct.
I hope the above makes sense.
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I totally agree with brothers Samson and Duster. As to brother Good logic, I have noticed that he simply ignores the facts that prove him wrong. Some people just can't bear the idea that you can't be always right, and that only God is always right. I've got used to it, it's just the way he is. Don't be mad at me Good logic for expressing myself like this-I can't do anything to change your character. But I can do something to honour the holiness of the Quran: I would kindly ask you that you no longer refer me to the works of someone that proclaimed to have found falsehood inside Quran. If you can't accept the mistakes in their theories, fine, but please don't bring them in your replies to me.
God bless you
Seraphina Rosa
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Greetings Seraphina.
No worries sister. I accept your request.
GOD bless you.
samson/Duster.
Thank you both for your replies.
For your information I have read all the posts you linked for me. I appreciate your help.
I have not found a good explanation , because this verse[43:5] is overlooked by many:
أَفَنَضرِبُ عَنكُمُ الذِّكرَ صَفحًا أَن كُنتُم قَومًا مُسرِفينَ
Who is GOD addressing here?
Why?
Who are the "Musrifeen"? When did they commit this?...
We need to have a look at the whole picture of these verses in Qoran.
But thanks again both of you.
Also brother Duster please allow me to clarify again that I am a believer. I do not belong to any sect.
The values I preach in my posts, I apply them to myself. I hope I have never labelled anyone as only GOD knows the innermost-thoughts of His subjects.
GOD bless you both.
Peace.
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Shalom / peace Goodlogic....How does 43:5 even help you???? ...this can easily be read as a people that the Quran is talking to who are transgressing bounds in this life....You see what you are doing? >>>>why would this simple verse even be a problem to interpret???....
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Thank you Duster.
I understand it differently.
Who is GOD addressing here?
إِنّا جَعَلنٰهُ قُرءٰنًا عَرَبِيًّا لَعَلَّكُم تَعقِلونَ all people ( Alalameen)
Same in here:
أَفَنَضرِبُ عَنكُمُ الذِّكرَ صَفحًا أَن كُنتُم قَومًا مُسرِفينَ
GOD is also using the past tense. -"Shall we just ignore the fact that you have transgressed the limits?"
GOD chooses His words carefully and precisely. This is not about this present life, as some would succeed in redeeming themselves .
GOD would have phrased the verse differently if not everyone was involved?
That is my understanding brother. GOD s word is complete in truth and justice.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Thank you Duster.
I understand it differently.
Who is GOD addressing here?
إِنّا جَعَلنٰهُ قُرءٰنًا عَرَبِيًّا لَعَلَّكُم تَعقِلونَ all people ( Alalameen)
Same in here:
أَفَنَضرِبُ عَنكُمُ الذِّكرَ صَفحًا أَن كُنتُم قَومًا مُسرِفينَ
GOD is also using the past tense. -"Shall we just ignore the fact that you have transgressed the limits?"
GOD chooses His words carefully and precisely. This is not about this present life, as some would succeed in redeeming themselves .
GOD would have phrased the verse differently if not everyone was involved?
That is my understanding brother. GOD s word is complete in truth and justice.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Verse 43:5 is referring to the Quraish. God is telling the Quraish that by their idol worshipping they are transgressing their limits. It's not referring to all of mankind. If you read other verses of the Quran you'll find that the Christians and Jews are not being warned in the same way as the Quraish. The Christians are being warned that they can't say that Jesus is the son of God and the Jews are being warned that they need to open up their hearts and stop behaving like the Jews of the past who denied Jesus and the other prophets after Moses. Even after God showed clear miracles at the time of Moses quite a few were reluctant to believe in the proper way which is by working righteousness.
If you read 43:3, it says the Quran is being revealed in Arabic so that the Quraish could understand it. Verses 43:6-8 tells the Quraish that in the past God sent prophets to many nations and they were all mocked and God destroyed them in the end. This is warning the Quraish not to mock the prophet Mohammed and to listen to him seriously.
I feel that many believers/muslims don't read the Quran in the context it was revealed. Many believers forget that this is God the Almighty giving revelation to a man (who had no idea he was a prophet and that God was actually communicating to him) living in a city where the majority of the population was pagan.
Good Logic,
I believe you're over burdening yourself with your interpretation of the Quran. I admire your zeal and passion in understanding every single word of God and your desire in preparing yourself well for the Day of Judgement, I believe God loves people with that kind of passion the most. However I think your energy would be put to much better use by using it to work righteousness rather trying to understand things which are pretty much impossible to verify and even if they were what good will it do? When I say work righteousness I mean helping the poor and needy, mending relationships with people, being forgiving, praying regular, fasting more, helping your neighbours (especially if they are not believers), helping the believing community better understand the Quran, etc, etc. These sort of things benefit a believer far more than disputing over revelations of God.
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Thank you Duster.
I understand it differently.
Shalom / peace goodlogic....No disrespect goodlogic....but you are almost making no sense.....By simply saying that you understand differently is not evidence....In my mind..you have no reason or proof for understanding these straight forward verses in the weirdest way you are doing so...and that is the point....>>>By saying you follow God's word but then relying on submitter's ideas or of Rashad khalifa is not going to make you any more credible....sorry but it isn't.
That is also why i think you will never change your view no matter how strong the evidence against your view is given to you..... i have seen this in so many of your posts and discussions.....Don't get me wrong...but there feels like there is something really wrong in what you say when you state that this is your understanding and it is based on God's word.....to me it seems it really isn't..there is no proof behind it apart from guesswork and weird interpretations....Anyway...I can't really add more than what brother samson has said in his last post. He has put it really nicely and with good advice imho!>>>
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Peace Duster.
Do we agree that there are no contradictions in Qoran?
Do we agree that GOD is consistent throughout the Qoran?
On that basis let me explain 43:5 further:
If GOD was talking about this life ,he would not say:" AFANADRIBU ANKUM ADHIKRA SAFHAN" - Shall We just ignore the fact.. Without pointing the exception within few verses for the context to be clear.Why?
Because GOD does ignore some transgressions if one repents in this life .Qoran confirms in many places that GOD in this life will overlook our sins/transgressions if we are sorry and repent!
GOD in 43:5 is talking about our past life, that is why we are all here retaking the "trial"?
GOD will ask us on that day when we are gathered in front of Him about his revelations/words: Did you examine/study/ aquire knowledge about my message/revelation/words or what is it that you have done?
I am simply a student of the Qoran who is still learning about GOD and His revelation.
My advice to all is to ponder/study/go over many many times...the Qoran and be patient with it . GOD is the Teacher of Qoran.
Thank you for the conversation brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Peace samson.
I appreciate what you are saying here;
Good Logic,
I believe you're over burdening yourself with your interpretation of the Quran. I admire your zeal and passion in understanding every single word of God and your desire in preparing yourself well for the Day of Judgement, I believe God loves people with that kind of passion the most. However I think your energy would be put to much better use by using it to work righteousness rather trying to understand things which are pretty much impossible to verify and even if they were what good will it do? When I say work righteousness I mean helping the poor and needy, mending relationships with people, being forgiving, praying regular, fasting more, helping your neighbours (especially if they are not believers), helping the believing community better understand the Quran, etc, etc. These sort of things benefit a believer far more than disputing over revelations of God.
And I agree with you.
Doing is more important. Everyday I try a bit harder than the day before. I guess ,while trusting in GOD and asking for His help, I can only do my best. I know GOD is just and He will be our judge in the end.
Also, we have to search for the truth , some of this task is done by other means like saying/discussing...etc...
GOD bless you and thank you brother.
Peace.
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GOD in 43:5 is talking about our past life, that is why we are all here retaking the "trial"?
GOD will ask us on that day when we are gathered in front of Him about his revelations/words: Did you examine/study/ aquire knowledge about my message/revelation/words or what is it that you have done?
Let's accept that God is talking about our past life. Then what? Are you saying we need to remember it and lament over it? Dig deeper? How is it going to benefit you on Judgement Day?
God is going to ask those to whom revelation came as to what they did with it. The muslims will be asked how well the followed the Quran, the Christians the Bible the Jews the Torah. It's obvious that you have studied the Quran well. But now what? What's next. I believe that you already know that unless you implement the Quran ie. believe/trust in God and work righteousness then it's of no use.
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Peace samson.
I agree with you. Upholding GOD s instructions and commands in our life is the most important aim.
However,this thread was a different topic .
I would also like to close the discussion on this particular topic.
Thanks to everyone.
God bless.
Peace.
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أَفَنَضرِبُ عَنكُمُ الذِّكرَ صَفحًا أَن كُنتُم قَومًا مُسرِفينَ
GOD is also using the past tense. -"Shall we just ignore the fact that you have transgressed the limits?"
GOD chooses His words carefully and precisely. This is not about this present life, as some would succeed in redeeming themselves .
GOD would have phrased the verse differently if not everyone was involved?
That is my understanding brother. GOD s word is complete in truth and justice.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Shalom / peace good logic .....Will you stop using Rahad Khalifa's translation already???? This is wasting everyone's time and it is almost like making Rashad an idol....please please can you STOP doing this on this forum!!!!...all you have done is taken Rashad's translation AGAIN with his footnote "**43:5 This refers to our original sin as detailed in the Introduction and Appendix 7." and continued to argue a baseless position...and kept on arguing the same point over and over again. Its seems you are a follower of Rashad although you claim not to be....
http://www.masjidtucson.org/quran/noframes/ch43.html
Hardly any other translator translates Rashad's way in the past tense....that is because Rashad has a point to prove ....>>>>
Sahih International: Then should We turn the message away, disregarding you, because you are a transgressing people?
Pickthall: Shall We utterly ignore you because ye are a wanton folk?
Yusuf Ali: Shall We then take away the Message from you and repel (you), for that ye are a people transgressing beyond bounds?
Shakir: What! shall We then turn away the reminder from you altogether because you are an extravagant people?
Muhammad Sarwar: Can We ignore sending you the Quran just because you are a transgressing people?
Mohsin Khan: Shall We then (warn you not and) take away the Reminder (this Quran) from you, because you are a people Musrifun.
Arberry: Shall We turn away the Remembrance from you, for that you are a prodigal people?
>>>>ALL in the present.....referring to people that the Quran was addressing....Its seems you are not going to change your mind..it is pointless making all these big claims that you do because all you ever seem to do on this forum is push Rashad's / 19ers / submitter's views on this forum!...>>>so when you say this is my understanding.....is it not just Rashad's understanding which you follow???>>
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Peace Duster.
How do we search for the truth?
- God invites us to work our hardest in examining all words and following the best words.
This means that we keep an open eye and heart to new information and sincerely verify it in the light of Quran.,
We must go through this procedure constantly with every situation that arises in life.
39:17-18:
وَالَّذينَ اجتَنَبُوا الطّٰغوتَ أَن يَعبُدوها وَأَنابوا إِلَى اللَّهِ لَهُمُ البُشرىٰ فَبَشِّر عِبادِ
الَّذينَ يَستَمِعونَ القَولَ فَيَتَّبِعونَ أَحسَنَهُ أُولٰئِكَ الَّذينَ هَدىٰهُمُ اللَّهُ وَأُولٰئِكَ هُم أُولُوا الأَلبٰبِ
Please read your posts and see what you are saying to me? Does each individual has the choice to do that? Can we choose for others?
Of course I have to agree with a view . if Qoran backs up that view. I have to go with my own understanding at the time and not someone elses.
In the case of Rashad , I accept what is backed up by Qoran. I reject all others.
Some Muslim scholars in the past have agreed with him, for example:
http://youtu.be/qJ2u4g1Ex4o
However ,unlike some of them, I do not reject because the person does not agree with my old religion/tradition, if Qoran backs it up...
If we restrict people from "free speech/opinions/views/... in a forum(providing they follow the rule of the forum),then we might as well close it or call it questions and answers/my views/...or something that sets our own agenda.
The truth always prevails in the end. We should not "fear" falsehood, it can easily be "shown up".
And yes we can always agree to disagree and move on.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Shalom / peace...There is no proof for Rashad's view from the Quran...yet you keep on pushing it. It's in every translation you make....Its in every disagreement you have on this forum...When you are shown your mistakes........you ignore it...claiming its your understanding......As far as I know this forum is not just about saying what you want or pushing agendas.........Its about evidence based discussions..so please don't use talk about free speech.....if everyone pushed their own agendas here.....This place would be a mess like other forums.....anyhow..No evidence or proof I find in your view or shall I say Rashad's view......and pls don't push his views here quietly in the way that you do......>>
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Salam/peace to all,
Brother Good logic, would you mind If I asked you a question? would you allow me?
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Peace Seraphina.
Are you asking me if you can go ahead and ask any question?
Of course you can ask.
GOD bless you .
Peace.
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Thank you Good logic,
Now that I was granted permission, I would kindly ask you: Since you always emphasize the importance of following the Quran, and you deem it necessary to follow it per-letter, are you sure that it was well-preserved letter-per-letter, and not manipulated from the hands of men, and that not a single letter was lost during its compilation? Have you got any doubts about this? Because it seems you accept it as a religious source of law, but even though you don't say it, you have doubts whether it was preserved or not.
Please answer my underlined question with simply 'yes i do' or no i don't', without going on long rounds.
Peace to you too, God bless you :)
Your sister Seraphina
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Peace Seraphina.
I have no doubt that Qoran (the original copy) is preserved .
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Peace Goodlogic,
Haaaa, great. If you're so sure of it, then how can you be so ardent fan of Rashad Khalifa? You claim to take from him only what is supported from Quran. But you ignore the fact that ALL of Khalifa's theories are based upon the fact that two of the verses of the Quran are false, e.g. they are inserted there from human hand. This is how he gave us the 19 theory, and this is the basis of all of his opinions. By giving support to any of his theories, you give support to the claim that Quran contains man-inserted verses. By doing this, you claim that God almighty failed to keep his promise for preserving the Quran from corruption and falsehood. Hear the advice of your sister, get out of 19ers and stop offending God by claiming He's not capable to keep his promise. I don't understand why is it so difficult for you to see/accept that their theories are wrong.
The subject was supposed to be about the Adam and his state before eating the fruit, but we ended up talking about submitters. I'd like to apologize to QM forum moderators and other brothers and sisters.
God bless you,
Seraphina Rosa
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I find that goodlogic phrased his wordings very carefully by saying in brackets 'the original copy'......>>>what I think he is saying is that the original copy is preserved as we can still access it ....but only by deleting those two verses first which were inserted by man / satan....!!!.....well my answer to that is how can Allah allow two verses to creep into the main reading of the Quran for nearly 1500 years .....then how is that 'preservation'???? how???? There is not ONE manuscript that i know of......that doesn't have the two verses in them.....not one....i also don't know of any recitation that omits those two verses......Rashad Khalifa has duped many so that he could make his theory work...a theory that has no support from the Quran....and it just happens that the submitter agendas get pushed on many forums...quietly...
Sorry sis Seraphina if I invaded your post / thread....but had to say what I feel and observe. I mean no disrespect to anyone....>>>Mods - please don't delete these comments as they are very imp!....i suppose this thread could always be split into two topics!!??......>>
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Please brother Duster, I'm so glad you took time to express yourself, and it's a pleasure to engage in discussion with you. I totally agree with your last post, so I think brother Goodlogic needs some time to reflect about the kind of theories he supports. As for moderators, they know their work perfectly, I trust them fully.
And, this post proved to me that even though we think we know the Scriptures well, the more we study topics treated in them, the more we realise things we didn't know, or simply didn't notice. I think by discussing like this we benefit each other, but others who are searching for answers might benefit as well.
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Greetings Seraphina/Duster.
I close my side of the discussion by quoting some verses from Qoran, we can all ponder? :
3:78
Among them are those who twist their tongues to imitate the scripture, that you may think it is from the scripture, when it is not from the scripture, and they claim that it is from God, when it is not from God. Thus, they utter lies and attribute them to God, knowingly.
وَإِنَّ مِنهُم لَفَريقًا يَلوۥنَ أَلسِنَتَهُم بِالكِتٰبِ لِتَحسَبوهُ مِنَ الكِتٰبِ وَما هُوَ مِنَ الكِتٰبِ وَيَقولونَ هُوَ مِن عِندِ اللَّهِ وَما هُوَ مِن عِندِ اللَّهِ وَيَقولونَ عَلَى اللَّهِ الكَذِبَ وَهُم يَعلَمونَ
3:79
Never would a human being whom God blessed with the scripture and prophethood say to the people, "Idolize me beside God." Instead, (he would say), "Devote yourselves absolutely to your Lord alone," according to the scripture you preach and the teachings you learn.
ما كانَ لِبَشَرٍ أَن يُؤتِيَهُ اللَّهُ الكِتٰبَ وَالحُكمَ وَالنُّبُوَّةَ ثُمَّ يَقولَ لِلنّاسِ كونوا عِبادًا لى مِن دونِ اللَّهِ وَلٰكِن كونوا رَبّٰنِيّـۧنَ بِما كُنتُم تُعَلِّمونَ الكِتٰبَ وَبِما كُنتُم تَدرُسونَ
3:80
Nor would he command you to idolize the angels and the prophets as lords. Would he exhort you to disbelieve after becoming Muslimeen?
وَلا يَأمُرَكُم أَن تَتَّخِذُوا المَلٰئِكَةَ وَالنَّبِيّـۧنَ أَربابًا أَيَأمُرُكُم بِالكُفرِ بَعدَ إِذ أَنتُم مُسلِمونَ
Sorry sister for going off topic also in your thread.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Well, there is someone who fits this description perfectly. There is someone who tried to twist the Quran with his tongue (3:78) so it would fit his belief that 2 of quranic verses are false. So, he's not guided by God in his teachings, because if he was, he would teach us "according to the Scriptures you preach and the teaching you learn" (3:79). Can you guess who he is? His teachings violate the work of Gabriel in Quran's transmittion and prophet Muhammad in the correctness of preaching it (3:80),(which by the way we can't idolise, but can give credit and respect to their work).
By trying to beat me with these verses, you're beating yourself. How can you not see yet that the more you defend your 19-based theories, the more they crumble?
I'm gonna follow brother Joseph's example in curtailing useless debates, because, thinking better, he's right: once the truth is manifested clearly, there is no use in continuing.
If the pride doesn't let you admit your mistakes, let me tell you that only God never mistakes. And you're not God.
Peace,
Seraphina
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Greetings Seraphina.
GOD is Almighty,Powerful, Aware of everything everyone does.
If we really believe He is capable of preserving His scripture, why should we worry about those who want to add or takeaway verses from His scripture?
If they add, it will stand out like a sore thumb. If they even attempt to take away He will stop them.
If you believe you have the preserved Qoran,then believe every word of it and best of luck to you with your studies .
It is a personal matter between each individual and GOD.
I believe every word of the Qoran that prophet Muhammed delivered to humanity. I believe GOD. Yes every word of it.
I am absolutely certain I am going to meet my Creator on the day of judgement. I will answer to Him for me . You will answer for you only. We both need to search for the truth and truly,believe. Who knows what the future holds for both of us?
I pray to the Lord to guide us both.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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If they add, it will stand out like a sore thumb.
Shalom /peace ... just to say .....if you think that 2 whole verses>>>> 9.128-129 sticks out like 'a sore thumb' as Rashad would have others believe....after some mathematical exercise and using hadith to support the removal of those verses...then I feel you are seriously mistaken....
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There is no use brother Duster, he pretends he's not seeing and he's not hearing, because what he sees and what he hears doesn't fitt with what he wants to believe. If brother Joseph couldn't convince him in numerous posts, then noone can convince him. As far as I'm concerned, he's free to believe 19er's ideas, I'm ok with it, as long as he doesn't bring them up to me (in the answers to my questions).
Shalom,
Your sister Seraphina
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Peace Duster.
When you say Rashad used hadith to support the removal of the two verses do you mean this?:
9:128-129: The Suspects
From an historical point of view, these false verses have been sus-pected for more than 1300 years, as documented in such classical references as Bukhari, Al-Itqaan-i Suyooty, Ibn Kaheer, and others. Some of the findings in these documents indicate that Muhammad’s cousin Ali knew that false verses had been added to the Quran, and he said he was going to do something about it. He actually did something about it. He and his son Hussein fought to remove these false verses from the Quran. They did not fight for power as an-nounced by their enemies who killed them and many others who supported them.
Also, according to these Islamic references, every single verse in the Quran was verified by a multiplic-ity of witnesses. The only exception was for Verses 9:128 and 129. These verses were found only with Khuzeimah Ibn Thaabet Al-Ansaary, one of the late companions of the prophet. When some people questioned this improper exception, someone came up with a Hadith (saying) which stated that "the testimony of Khuzeimah equals the testimony of two men!"
Strangely, the traditional Quran printings indicate that Sura 9 is "Medinan" (revealed in Medina), except the last two verses, which they indicate as being "Meccan." The question is how could these "Meccan" verses be found with Khuzeimah, a late Medinan Muslim, when the universal convention has been to label as "Medinan" all revelations after the prophet’s Hijerah (emigration) from Mecca?!
I use Qoran only. I do not use any outside sources.
I just wonder why this has been said about them and not about other verses?
I am just checking what you mean when you say hadith, if you want to answer this query .
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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I just wonder why this has been said about them and not about other verses?
Shalom / peace ...so suddenly goodlogic ...you are so interested why sources outside the Quran are saying things about certain verses in the Quran? ... and then you say "I use Qoran only. I do not use any outside sources."...what will it take to make you see the immense contradictory statements you come up with?????
>>>Who cares who and what is written about verses 9.128-129????>>.......who cares what is written about any verses of the Quran in books written hundred of years later????? why should that matter to any Quran-only person????...HOWEVER ...it matters to those that claim to be Quran-only and are not .....but use 'outside sources' like the ones you quoted to quietly support their own convictions.....
What will make you see????????
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Peace Duster.
I was asking you what source of hadith did Rashad use. I gave you that example. Is that the one you mean?
I was asking you the question politely.
It is fine if you do not want to answer.
I was also saying,for me GOD has put everything in Qoran. He did not leave anything out of the book, regardless of hadith,history ...etc.
All the answers are in Qoran. GOD has counted the numbers of everything." Wa kulla shayin ahsainahu addada".
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Shalom / peace
Sorry goodlogic.....I find your question, although you ask it very politely .....a little disingenuous brother....pls don't take offence...its just my observation and what I feel...
You see....you actually asked me 2 questions....and given your second question...it seems your first question was rhetorical.....Let me show you how....
You asked:
Question 1
When you say Rashad used hadith to support the removal of the two verses do you mean this?:
Question 2
I just wonder why this has been said about them and not about other verses?
>>>Therefore...your second question accepts the things said in the external sources after your first question as true....in other words...why would you ask question 2 if you didn't think the external content given after your first question was relevant anyway????>>> you must have thought it relevant ...otherwise why would you ask me why so and so wasn't said about other verses?
Anyway ...see for yourself how much 'external sources / hadith' Rashad quotes himself showing it as events that actually happened.....>>>before he starts using the 'physical evidence' and his own cherry picked calculations to make his point...and you know why he made that lean on all those sources???? because as brother Joseph and so many have shown...he can't even prove the need to search for a mathematical miracle from the Quran.... thats why his cherry picked, 'physical evidence' is meaningless on its own....
http://www.masjidtucson.org/quran/appendices/appendix24.html
Bro Joseph - CODE 19 AND THE REMOVAL OF TWO VERSES FROM THE QURAN - A PROBLEMATIC THEORY - http://quransmessage.com/articles/19%20FM3.htm
I left the "submitters"
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598270.0
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Brother Duster, I don't know if you saw my earlier post, but in case you didn't, please don't get yourself exhausted without need. Goodlogic was shown facts his views are wrong. It's not that he doesn't see he's wrong, it's that he doesn't want to see, because the facts shown to him contradict what he wants to believe. Brother Joseph went through this many times before, if he couldn't convince him, noone can. Shalom :)
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Shalom / peace sister seraphina.....i am sad, but I think you are right....i don't know how clear someone has to be to make it obvious of the weakness of someone's points and you are right bro joseph has often laid out clear arguments but because of personal agendas some just carry on arguing. oh this is my opinion and everyone has a right to an opinion....no...if your opinion is weak and shown to be weak you just should stop promoting it........I just hope bro joseph doesn't ever get fed up of answering such questions...I am always worried about this.....that he might get fed up one day....I know in one thread he said he wanted to maintain standards of discussions with evidence....but when he goes quiet sometimes..i sometimes get worried...but I know he is busy and has so many commitments..It seems that anyone and everyone that has their own agendas just come on forums like these and say what they want and refuse to change their position no matter how strongly it is refuted / challenged...either promoting themselves or other scholars views blindly.....regardless how many times you show them....***Sigh****>>>thanks for replying sis...but you can't help being frustrated some times....>>>
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You're welcome bro Duster :) I feel exactly like you. On each and every quiet period of brother Joseph, I can't help it: I miss his posts and his guidance. Then I remember that he has many commitments and a busy schedule. But, I have known him enough to know that he would never give up on us, at least not this way. And then, since I can't do anything else, I pray to God for him (believe it or not, I pray for brother Joseph and forum members every day in my duas). Wherever brother Joseph is, whatever be his condition, may God protect him from all evil and may He bless him with health and strength to face whatever comes in his way. May God be with you, our brother Joseph, we miss you!
Shalom bro Duster, may God bless you too :)
Your sis Seraphina Rosa :)
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Peace Duster.
Thank you for your post.
I do not take what God says lightly. I have made it my aim in life to find out what is the message. God s message contains a proof ,of that I have no doubt now.
Do you think I ignore evidence? I have to check and make sure it is true evidence.
For example What is the original Qoran and what happened to that copy?
How do we know that the oldest copy we have is the Qoran that Muhammed received?... Why are there many versions like Hafs,warsh...etc...?
All these questions can now be answered using interlock and God s stamp/signature on His words.
The Quran carries GOD's mathematical signature, 19 is the Quran's common denominator.
This is the deliberate design of Almighty GOD; He has placed His mathematical signature in our hand. The number of bones in our hand is 19. In mathematics, 1 and 9 are like A and Z in English. They signify "The First and The Last," "The Alpha and Omega." Zero independently has no value. To make sure that we don't think this might be a coincidence, next to our hand, GOD has placed 8 bones in our wrist. 19 is the 8th prime number, (2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, and 19). Prime numbers are only divisible by themselves and number 1.
The first verse in the Quran is comprised of 19 Arabic letters. This same exact verse is placed on top the first 8 suras. Sura 9 does not have the opening statement. This is the design of the Almighty.
GOD has indeed counted the number of everything. His message is numerically structured.
I have found more evidence with this than with other arguments. I have solid proof that the Qoran I follow is the original Qoran sent by the Lord of the universe.
Of course it is my proof. Others have their evidence and proofs according to their understanding.
Thank you and God bless you.
Peace.
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GOD has indeed counted the number of everything. His message is numerically structured.
Shalom / peace....Where does it say that God's message is mathematically structured ???? Rashad takes a verse, misinterprets it....look for data to fit the theory and when it doesn't work, he removes two verses. and his followers and others like you call it proof???? Can't you see its a test to expose those whose hearts have perversity???? Can't you see?????
Its no point goodlogic arguing with you...absolutely no point....you will continue to dismiss whatever is shared with you ... your mind is made up....any way as far as your Wars and Hafs copies and differences in the Quran...there has already been a good article shared on this site dealing with it by brother joseph.....http://quransmessage.com/articles/seven%20readings%20FM3.htm
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Peace Duster.
Yes I read the links you posted for me before .The following verse is quoted by many :
[Qoran 56:77-80] This is an honorable Quran. In a protected book. None can grasp it except the sincere. A revelation from the Lord of the universe.
However, for centuries the Muslim scholars have been teaching the Muslim masses that by verse 15:9, God means He will protect the Mus-haf of any distortion or changes.
We need to look at this verse also, it clarifies what GOD is preserving:
[Qoran 85:21-22] Indeed, it is a glorious Qoran. In a preserved master tablet.
This means whatever change the people would do to the revealed Qoran, whether done deliberately or not will be exposed and corrected as the original is preserved with God. God, being the Most Merciful , also provided us with a method and a proof to verify the accuracy of the Quran .
The Mus-hafs that exist today and around the world are not the same as many of them still carry the human errors that were not corrected. They do not match word by word or letter by letter and they are not what God promised to preserve and protect.
Any human written books, including the Mus-hafs are liable to human errors.
GOD has blessed us with a tool to measure and confirm His words. He asked us to use our eyes,ears and brain to verify all information.
GOD s words against men s words, we have the means to verify which is which!
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Salamu Alykum Br. Goodlogic
Brother, from reading this post, I do have to kindly agree with the other members. I 'm not judging you but just by seeing the things that have been written I don't think you have gotten the message of what the argument really is. I really think you should revisit these articles that Br. Joseph has written.
CODE 19
http://quransmessage.com/articles/19%20FM3.htm
And about the verses you related in your last post I hope this article will be of some help
http://quransmessage.com/pdfs/Do%20I%20Need%20Wudu%20To%20Touch%20the%20Quran.pdf
It briefly explains certain verses you mentioned.
Any book of God is perfect, and makes sense and should be taken seriously. From what I noticed in my life is because of people not taking the religion seriously and if the past was also of the same, then I can realize why there is so many ideas and opinions that have nothing to do with the Quran.
I do think though that anyone who is giving their opinions on a matter should be scrutinized by ANYONE using the Quran and to see if they fall short in anyway. This way it would be easy to distinguish what is right and what is wrong.
And if a opinion about a matter in the Quran is given by a Quranic scholar and it sheds NO tension on any verses and it CONFIRMS other verses with no addition of names, or other information then why not agree on the matter. We have to start becoming united and not more differences.
Brother go over these verses very carefully.
A PROBLEMATIC THEORY
The crux of the 19 theory is founded on strength of the following verses:
074.026-29
"Soon will I cast him into Hell-fire! (Arabic: saqara) And what will make you realize what hell-fire is? It leaves nothing; it spares nothing. It scorches the mortal"
074:030
Over it (Arabic: alayha) are Nineteen.
074.031
"And We have set none but angels (Arabic: malaikatan) as Guardians of the Fire (Arabic: ashaba-l-nari); and We have fixed their number (Arabic: iddatahum) only as a trial (Arabic: fitna) for disbelievers (Arabic: kafarau) in order that the People of the Book may arrive at certainty, and the Believers may increase in Faith, and that no doubts may be left for the People of the Book and the Believers, and that those in whose hearts is a disease and the Unbelievers may say, "What does God intend by this example / parable?" Thus does God leave to stray whom He pleases and guide whom He pleases: and none can know the forces of thy Lord, except Him. And this is no other than a reminder to human beings"
The fixed number is a trial for the disbelievers. The message seems to be clear. Now who are the disbelievers the ones who believe in this number or the ones who do not believe in this number? Lets find out----> the ones whose herts is a disease and the unbelievers may say"What does God intend by this example / parable?" Could it be it that the people who need an answer to everything, scientifically or mathematically?
So a person who already believes in the Quran and the protection of the Quran is only from GOD. And that it has reached us today the same way it did to the Prophet. He obviously rejects the code 19 theory. And would not ask about the example.
For it increases the faith of the believers when for example I read this verse I see this as a prophecy that has indeed happened. And people before the Code 19 came out would of never even knew whats going on. Now I realized that God has indeed warned people. And it happened in Our life time right now. This should increase the faith of the believers and that no doubts be left for the people of the book. And God the Most Merciful has indeed reminded us that its been protected by HIM.
Its like a prophecy that would not of been know or even guessed it was a prophecy in the Quran until the time has actually happened.
And the Quran should not only be taken on a personal level. For example. A topic like, divorce, corruption in the land, fornication, inheritance etc.
The Prophet Muhammad did not just leave the Quran in the hands of people to just search for the pages concerning the matter for the individual to just see according to his own intellect what is the requirements.
If two people were getting divorced, I don't think it was expected of them to just search through the pages and see how they can settle there divorce according to what they understand. What if they fall short? Not everyone can make all these calculations and judgements?
What does a man do when he commits fornication, or if he is seen in these actions? He does not just simply go to a friend of his or his dad and tell him to carry out the punishment.
What about inheritance?
What I'm saying is it seems like the Quran was given to the whole nation to live by it as a law and a way of life. That it may be used by judges, lawyers, prosecutors, witnesses, people keeping details and track records and so on.
Obviously it also has guidance to ones religious personal level as well. While giving the freedom of no compulsion in religion
Anyways Bro, I hope you all the best, and from whats been going on in the world today we got to start on agreeing on matters that seem to make sense in our religion from the Quran. When we say we believe in the Quran, I think we should agree with topics that are manifested to be clear. By scholars who remain consistent with their work. And if you cannot disprove an argument then why refuse it. The Quran is a scripture with a message that should be spread. And when there is someone working hard in spreading the message with clear evidence, then there is no need to give other opinions unless its better with evidence. It could lead to confusion. I'm not suggesting to not ask questions. In fact the opposite, so a person can learn the religion from people who know, and once its been made clear and you don't see any contractions then its safe to accept. Why not accept it? Is it not the truth of the Quran that one is trying to follow?
And most of the Book or the foundation of the Quran has been made simply clear. And the rest has been intentionally made for us not to fully understand. We hear and we obey.
003:007
"He it is Who has revealed to you the Scripture wherein are clear revelations (Arabic: Muhkamatun) - They are the substance of the Book, others are unspecific / allegorical (Arabic: Mutashabihaat). But those in whose hearts is perversity pursue that which is unspecific (Arabic: Mutashabihaat) seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knows its explanation save God. (and) those who are of sound instruction say: We believe in it; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really take heed"
Peace
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Dear brother Good Logic,
I believe brother Hamzeh has made a very good point. I urge you to consider it carefully.
And I hope that in the future, we can discuss clear matters and avoid subjects that have been exhausted in debates, especially when differences in opinion have been made clear. I believe this is best for everyone.
We all are going through a different journeys to understand the Quran. So let's not make it harder on ourselves.
Peace and good luck to all of us in our pursuits of knowledge. :)
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Peace Bothers, Hamzeh,Ahmad.
Thank you both for your posts.
Please allow me to close then, with the following prayer:
Praise the Lord. My Lord and the Lord of everyone.( Willingly or unwillingly!)
Our Lord ,please divert evil and sin away from us. Please make us one of your devoted servants.
Our Lord please answer our prayer. You are the Hearer, the Omniscient.
Our Lord, please do not let us set up idols beside you. Show us your path.Teach us your message.Cleanse us and help us remember you 24/7.
Our Lord ,make us accept your perfect religion, total loyalty,devotion and total surrender to you and your system.
Our Lord, stop us following innovations that people have made up and our own innovations! Please stop us following what you did not authorise.
Our Lord, all the ruling belongs to you. Help us follow only your rules.
Our Lord ,we can never claim innocence. We need your mercy. You are the Forgiver Most Merciful.
Our Lord, we simply complain to you Alone our dilemma and grief and misunderstandings.
Our Lord ,please answer your servants, you are the Hearer.
Our Lord is most kind towards whomever He wills.Our Lord is the Knower,Most Wise.
Our Lord, save us from committing idol worship.
You are our Lord in this life and in the next. Help us to live and die surrendering to you and your system.
Our Lord, bless us and count us with the righteous.
May the Lord guide all His true servants to His path .
GOD bless you both.
Peace.
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Each to their own is a very bad idea Duster.If God judges people based on what they believed and what they didn't believe than the majority of people who have ever lived will be thrown to hell for having wrong beliefs.I am supprised most of you are not very disturbed by this
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Shalom / peace Donald.....you can only share clear verses and views to someone....if they don't want to believe it then you can't force them to.....thats why I say each to their own....after a point, its like banging your head against the wall.....i also think that we will all be judged individually...if you have wrong beliefs and you were given plenty of chances to correct them>>>>then you will be accountable. if you haven't had the opportunity or chances...then I believe the Creator will take that into account and may act mercifully. Hope that makes sense.
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I don't think that anyone deserves to be tortured for all eternity just because he or she was doesn't believe in the Quran isn't the same for you? If you would not torture anyone just for being wrong what makes you think God being more Compassionate and Merciful than you would?
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A lot of people in the world get tortured and killed for holding certain beliefs.If that is wrong in this world why is it not wrong in other worlds? Aren't wrong and right good and evil absolute bro?
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Shalom / peace Donald ....where are you getting this from??? that people will get tortured for eternity???? >>>>before making such statements, can you at least try to study the material on this site????
Is the Punishment of Hell Eternal? - http://quransmessage.com/articles/is%20the%20punishment%20of%20hell%20eternal%20FM3.htm
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Can you try to study materials on other sites http://www.myreligionislam.com/detail.asp?Aid=5972 while its true that Quran says Hell will not be permanent for some it is permanent for all others
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But why are you arguing it here????..... I find the article on this site more convincing.....you made a statement....i shared an article from this site showing that is not the view of this site.....
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Cause I like to hear from all sides bro
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There is nothing wrong with that ...but then please don't present statements as if they are true....>>especially when they can be seen as otherwise.....no disrespect but this is not a facebook page.......where you can fire any sort of facebook-type comments. This is a forum where proper discussions take place with proper evidence .......sorry bro,,,,but I think you are trolling....
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I am sorry you think that You posted " I find this article to be more convincing" before you could have had the time to read my article.You are being too quick to draw conclusions aren't we all making statements to as if they are true? Aren't articles in this site presented as they are true? I am not sure if I understand your post correctly.Anyway my main point had nothing to do with Hell being eternal or not. I asked (see my post) "A lot of people in the world get tortured and killed for holding certain beliefs.If that is wrong in this world why is it not wrong in other worlds? Aren't wrong and right good and evil absolute bro?" So will you address that?
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Well Donald, maybe Duster's post had nothing to do with your question, but also your question had nothing to do with the subject of this topic. The topic treated in this post has nothing to do with torture and killing because of beliefs. It is about Adam's state before and after disobeying God. Please can you be more careful as to what you post and where you post? Thanks in advance,
Seraphina
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Yes you are right Seraphina my appologies
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I have made my own post about the questions I asked but nobody has answered it yet so I asked here I am not patient :D
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As-salamu alaykum respected readers,
Thank you to those of you who have shared their concerns and kind wishes. My particular gratitude to those of you that continue to share the material on the Quransmessage.com website in order to share knowledge and answer questions along with your own deep wisdom. This is truly appreciated and very helpful as at times, my intense commitments mean that I can only dedicate limited time to responding to the many queries that I can potentially receive every day by various means. Please do keep continuing to do this if you can as we all learn from each other in different ways with the grace of God.
Dear Seraphina, I know the thread has progressed to many pages over time, but as the initiator of the thread, if there are any outstanding questions you still have to ask in light of your thread, please can you kindly share them in short bullet points and I'll try to address them in due course, God willing. Please do not feel that you need to respond if you feel that your queries were satisfied or do not feel the need for them to be answered. :)
Regards,
Joseph
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Dear brother Joseph, I'm so grateful you took some time to respond to us, to my thread particulary. Well, If you saw my postings I'd like to know your opinion regarding the correctness of the conclusions I reached, and I would kindly ask your opinion in the subject of this thread. Here I go with 'short bullet points' as you asked:
•Was Adam created immortal, since he was placed in the paradise(an eternal abode of felicity)?
•if yes, then how could Satan tempt him with something he already had?Or was he talking about another type of immortality(angel-like)?
•if no, then how did God place a mortal in the eternal abode? Where would he go after death? Nowhere does the Quran say that there were two paradises at some point.
•Satan is described as an arrogant and in-love-with-himself type of creature. Those kind of creatures are so confident in themselves that they consider their future plans as a sure fact, like failing is not an option. Could this be a reason why he talks about mankind's death and resurrection as a sure fact? He said those words right after refusing to bow, long before he made Adam and Eve sin, like he was so sure he'll make them eat the fruit, so death and resurrection are inevitable, and so he asks for reprivement until the day they are resurrected?
It may be like I'm making a big deal of it, but it is important I guess, everything started right there, and it's one of main fundamental differences between me and my christian friends.
Praying for your health, strength and wellbeing,
Your sister Seraphina ☺
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Dear Sister Searphina
Salam
I hope you already read the following article :
http://quransmessage.com/articles/adam%20and%20jannah%20FM3.htm
Munir Rana
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Dear Sister
Salam.
You also can go through one of Joseph's facebook post and related coments regarding this issue.
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/415563135247486
Munir Rana
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Thank you brother Munir Rana for helping me with my research,but I found nothing yet that answers my questions clearly. I'm waiting for brother Joseph's response, as you could have seen from my last post. Thank you and selam ☺
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Dear Seraphina,
As-salamu alaykum
Please see my responses below to your questions / comments in red italics.
•Was Adam created immortal, since he was placed in the paradise (an eternal abode of felicity)?
Firstly, the English word 'paradise' is arguably a little unhelpful in this context. 'Jannah' is described by the Quran as an abode in the Hereafter post resurrection. There are numerous verses which attest to this. 'Adam' was created on earth for earth as I have discussed in the following article entitled “Adam (pbuh) and Jannah - An Earthly Abode or Paradise?” (http://quransmessage.com/articles/adam%20and%20jannah%20FM3.htm): which I am sure you are already familiar with, God willing.
'Paradise' or 'jannah' in this context will only be created after the first 'universe' is destroyed along with everything in it (21:104).
Now the 'state' that Adam was in on Earth has only been briefly elucidated by the Quran and it is extremely important to remember that whilst seeking to understand this, we are only to limit our inferences to the information God has provided and rely on clear or obvious matters (zahir 18:22) and to steer clear of 'zann' 6:116 (unnecessary assumptions).
What we know is this:
Adam enjoyed certain privileges on earth for example:
- He would never go hungry (20:118). He would neither feel the heat of the sun nor thirst (20:119), including the affects of serious toil / suffering or distress (fatashqa - 20:117). This means that whilst present on earth with a 'sun' in celestial proximity, he had the means or understanding at least not to feel its affects. This could mean for example that they had ample water to quench their thirst (a blessing from God) and not in a drought ridden location and or that they had sufficient means to protect themselves with shade. It also meant that they would find ample food for provenance never feeling for example, the affects of famine (20:118) or serious toil (20:117).
- Arguably much like the animal kingdom or human children, Adam would have no concept of 'shame' from nudity as we understand today. This was the state they were in (20:118) and it was from this state they were also removed after they had sinned (7:22). Many animals remain in a 'nude' state and conduct their business without this seemingly being an issue.
What this does not mean however is that they were 'immortal' or that their kingdom would not waste away. This is made explicitly clear by the statement made by Satan that incited them with 'immortality' and 'a kingdom that does not deteriorate / waste away' (mulk'in la yabla).
020:120
“Then Satan whispered to him; he said, "O Adam! Shall I direct you to the tree of eternity / immortality (khuld) and a kingdom that will not decay / deteriorate / waste away? (mulk’in la yabla)”
Thus, they were in a 'temporary wasteable’ (verb: baliya - yabla - to decay, waste or deteriorate - 20:120) state and were mortal. It was protection from this that Satan falsely enticed them.
•if yes, then how could Satan tempt him with something he already had?Or was he talking about another type of immortality(angel-like)?
This question does not arise. Please see my response above.
•if no, then how did God place a mortal in the eternal abode? Where would he go after death? Nowhere does the Quran say that there were two paradises at some point.
There is no evidence in the Quran that God placed them in 'an eternal abode'. As my response to your first question has respectfully attempted to demonstrate, they were placed in a 'wasteable' (yabla) mortal state albeit with certain privileges. (E.g. protection from sun's impact, ample resources for provenance and to quench thirst (no famine, drought etc.), and with no concept of 'shame').
You are correct that the Quran does not say that there were two 'paradises' and as I have respectfully shown, 'jannah' is only an abode for the Hereafter.
As to where Adam would go after 'death', then this would be no different to where humans go after death today. Please remember that even before Adam was created, the 'angels' had already stated as an opinion, that Adam's progeny would cause 'corruption' (fasad) and 'bloodshed' (yasfiku'l'dima) - 2:30. This is before Adam was ever created or had sinned by consuming from the 'tree'. God does not dispute this (2:30). Thus man's purpose was clearly implied. That he was to be given volition, vicegerancy and was able to distinguish between right and wrong and in some cases, 'fasad' (corruption) and bloodshed would result.
The 'sin' caused by the incident of the tree resulted in the removal of 'certain privileges' which Adam enjoyed. Verses 7:24-25 simply imply that they were removed from this state where they enjoyed these privileges. This ‘error’ has only been described by the Quran as merely a 'slip / slide back' ‘azalla / zalla’ (2:36; 16:94) and not such a horrendous crime (as often thought) which was to result in mankind’s severe banishment to earthly conditions. They would of course feel the affects of famine, drought, shame and distress / suffering / toil (20:117). However, Adam was forgiven and guided (20:122) and mankind were also to continue to receive ongoing guidance from their Lord (2:38; 20:123) with the proviso that they must keep to God's guidance or succumb to His retribution (20:123).
The Arabic verb 'habata' (ih'bit) used in verse 7:24 of the Quran simply means a change of state from one (arguably better) to another, to descend from a better state of being to a lower one, a lower rank, state of dignity or a change in condition, to become degraded (as can also be seen in verse 2:61 when applied to the Children of Israel) or to go forth (as seen in verse 11:48 with regards Noah and his ark).
This does not mean however that a totally new framework for Adam and his progeny was devised after the incident with the tree and Adam's forgetting of his covenant with God (20:115). This is possibly the result of an oft biased, totally unnecessary interpretation of verses such as 7:24-25. These verses can simply be read as a confirmation of the initial plan which was always to test Adam's progeny after giving them vicegerancy on earth with volition; to provide habitation and provision for a limited time, where they would live, die and be raised.
Please remember that the angels already knew of the bloodshed and corruption that would be created on earth well before Adam had ever been created or had sinned. (2:30). There was already a plan to test Adam in place. The tree was arguably the first test.
•Satan is described as an arrogant and in-love-with-himself type of creature. Those kind of creatures are so confident in themselves that they consider their future plans as a sure fact, like failing is not an option. Could this be a reason why he talks about mankind's death and resurrection as a sure fact? He said those words right after refusing to bow, long before he made Adam and Eve sin, like he was so sure he'll make them eat the fruit, so death and resurrection are inevitable, and so he asks for reprivement until the day they are resurrected?
Satan's haughtiness (istakbara - 2:34) has indeed been highlighted by the Quran. However, his 'predictions' have been described by God as no more than 'assumptions / opinion / calculations' (zann - 34:20). They can either be right or wrong. Sometimes they can prove true as in the verse below.
034.020
"And Satan indeed found his assumption / opinion / calculation (zann) true concerning them, for they follow him, all save a group of true believers."
This does not mean that they are always true.
No creature has absolute knowledge of the unseen (6:59). However, at times, opinions/ assumptions can be proven true such as with Satan above (34:20) or as in the case of the angels, that assumed correctly, the corruption and bloodshed from Adam's progeny (2:30).
I hope that answers your questions, God willing.
Joseph
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What would we do without you brother Joseph :D thank you for responding me,
Barakallahu fikhi,
Your sister Seraphina Rosa
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Dear brother Joseph,
As-salam alaykum.
Brother, I am sorry but I don't quite get it.
You said in your post that Adam had no concept of shame:
"2. Arguably much like the animal kingdom or human children, Adam would have no concept of 'shame' from nudity as we understand today. This was the state they were in (20:118) and it was from this state they were also removed after they had sinned (7:22). Many animals remain in a 'nude' state and conduct their business without this seemingly being an issue.
There is no evidence in the Quran that God placed them in 'an eternal abode'. As my response to your first question has respectfully attempted to demonstrate, they were placed in a 'wasteable' (yabla) mortal state albeit with certain privileges. (E.g. protection from sun's impact, ample resources for provenance and to quench thirst (no famine, drought etc.), and with no concept of 'shame')."
If Adam had no concept of shame, then why did he and his wife started to cover themselves with leaves when their nakedness became exposed?
7:22
Thus he cunningly seduced them. When they tasted the trees fruit, their nakedness became exposed to them and they started covering themselves with the leaves of the garden. Their Lord called out to them, Did I not forbid you to approach that tree, and did I not say to you that Satan was surely your open enemy?
Regards.
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Wa alaikum assalam Sword,
If Adam had no concept of shame, then why did he and his wife started to cover themselves with leaves when their nakedness became exposed?
7:22
Thus he cunningly seduced them. When they tasted the trees fruit, their nakedness became exposed to them and they started covering themselves with the leaves of the garden. Their Lord called out to them, Did I not forbid you to approach that tree, and did I not say to you that Satan was surely your open enemy?
Adam had no concept of shame / nakedness / being unclothed (as we today) before he was seduced by Satan and ate from the forbidden tree. This is made explicitly clear in verse 20:118 that I noted above in my post. It was only after he tasted from the forbidden tree (disobeying God) that his nakedness became apparent / manifest to him. This is why they started to cloth themselves with leaves from the garden. This is also made clear in the verse you quoted as well (7:22) where you share "...When they tasted the trees fruit, their nakedness became exposed to them and they started covering themselves with the leaves of the garden" (bold emphasis mine).
As I noted quite clearly in my post:
"This was the state they were in (20:118) and it was from this state they were also removed after they had sinned (7:22)."
I hope that clarifies, God willing.
Joseph
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Shalom / peace bro Joseph! :) .....Thank you so much for your post to Seraphina...very insightful!!!>>>
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Dear brother Joseph,
Salam alaykum.
Okay, so in that case it would imply that when God placed Adam and his wife on the earthly jannah, He (God) already had them in their clothes, hence they had no concept of shame / nakedness, and that they had never opened their clothes by themselves until they ate from the tree. Do you think this is correct?
Regards.
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Wa alaikum assalam Sword,
Respectfully, I think you are missing the point. If a creation of God does not have a sense of 'nakedness' or 'shame' like we do today, why would they need to cloth themselves? Do animals need to cloth themselves? Are animals created with clothes? Of course not!.
Therefore, Adam was like other animal creations where he did not feel a need to cover his shame. This sense of 'shame' only became apparent once he sinned and ate from the forbidden tree. That is why they took leaves from the garden to cover themselves. It is really that simple.
I hope this now clarifies, God willing.
Regards,
Joseph
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Joseph Islam I have some questions
"The 'sin' caused by the incident of the tree resulted in the removal of 'certain privileges' which Adam enjoyed. Verses 7:24-25 simply imply that they were removed from this state where they enjoyed these privileges. This ‘error’ has only been described by the Quran as merely a 'slip / slide back' ‘azalla / zalla’ (2:36; 16:94) and not such a horrendous crime (as often thought) which was to result in mankind’s severe banishment to earthly conditions. They would of course feel the affects of famine, drought, shame and distress / suffering / toil (20:117). However, Adam was forgiven and guided (20:122) and mankind were also to continue to receive ongoing guidance from their Lord (2:38; 20:123) with the proviso that they must keep to God's guidance or succumb to His retribution (20:123).
The Arabic verb 'habata' (ih'bit) used in verse 7:24 of the Quran simply means a change of state from one (arguably better) to another, to descend from a better state of being to a lower one, a lower rank, state of dignity or a change in condition, to become degraded (as can also be seen in verse 2:61 when applied to the Children of Israel) or to go forth (as seen in verse 11:48 with regards Noah and his ark)."
Adam was the first Prophet that means he was in direct communication with God was that part of the privileges you speak of?
Also he was born in a perfect garden with no hardship no suffering no pain no disseases no shame absolutely nothing negative?
When Adam lost those privileges did his ancestors also lost those privileges that they would have if Adam and passed his test?
O know you don't have a lot of time but I would appreciate if you addressed my question
Thanks
Thanks
This does not mean however that a totally new framework for Adam and his progeny was devised after the incident with the tree and Adam's forgetting of his covenant with God (20:115). This is possibly the result of an oft biased, totally unnecessary interpretation of verses such as 7:24-25. These verses can simply be read as a confirmation of the initial plan which was always to test Adam's progeny after giving them vicegerancy on earth with volition; to provide habitation and provision for a limited time, where they would live, die and be raised.
Please remember that the angels already knew of the bloodshed and corruption that would be created on earth well before Adam had ever been created or had sinned. (2:30). There was already a plan to test Adam in place. The tree was arguably the first test.
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Dear Donald,
As-salamu alaykum
Before responding to your questions, may I kindly and respectfully remind you that I have read some of your posts of recent, particularly on this forum, and it is my humble view that your approach has often been unnecessarily contentious towards other forum members. It seems to me that you have already formulated a strong world-view (of what you see around you) and a strong theological perspective regarding God and are being unnecessarily quarrelsome on this forum without warrant to support your own convictions.
Please may I kindly remind you of the forum policy in particular, 2(c). If your approach does not change immediately, the moderators will have no hesitation but to remove you from this forum. I have already curtailed your being banned despite what I understand is a warning that has already been given to you.
If you are seriously present on this forum to seek answers, then you need to be willing to engage with the Quran for yourself and try to really understand (with at least a degree of impartiality and sincerity) the responses that individuals are taking their time out to give you. In my humble opinion, I have respectfully noted that your understanding of Quranic verses are often arguably misplaced and that you seem to suggest a deep distaste towards Divine plans and purpose. You have also already admitted here (http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1508.msg6962#msg6962) to have been 'misled' from what you infer is a 'wrong translation'. Therefore, it is quite possible that you are being 'misled' from other faulty interpretations as well. This is something you may want to consider.
If you are not willing to gain greater familiarity with the Quranic narratives (or at least give it a try), then I am afraid, nothing that anyone says to you on this forum will matter. It will almost be an argument from ignorance on your part when it comes to Quranic perspectives and arguing against theology sourced from them.
As far as responding to your questions, you ask:
Adam was the first Prophet that means he was in direct communication with God was that part of the privileges you speak of?
At no place does the Quran explicitly state that Adam was the first prophet [1]. His communication with God was part of the guidance that was to continue to be sent to mankind. As community needs grew with population and complexities, it can be posited that guidance became more comprehensive and discerning. As to what 'prophets' are from the Quran, I have discussed this in the post [2] below.
You further ask:
"Also he was born in a perfect garden with no hardship no suffering no pain no disseases no shame absolutely nothing negative?"
I have never stated that Adam was born in a 'perfect garden'. Please may I advise you not to present any more 'straw man' arguments going forward. In the main, all I have deduced from the Quran is that Adam was formed as part of a wider evolutionary process on planet Earth [3] and when he was given 'volition' and made an 'insaan' (by virtue of God breathing His spirit in Him), he was in a location (earth) and state where there were certain privileges granted to him and his spouse. I have already presented quite clearly in my earlier post what those privileges were.
You finally ask:
"When Adam lost those privileges did his ancestors also lost those privileges that they would have if Adam and passed his test?"
In my humble opinion, it would be quite fantastic that Adam and his spouse were to lose certain privileges in their state of being and yet their progeny that descended from them still retained those privileges. It begs the question, how would this even work practically or psychologically? For example, Adam would feel shameful when his nakedness is exposed, but his son would not feel that same sense of shame? In other words, does one expect Adam's son to walk naked in front of his father because Adam's children have not been removed from that state of feeling 'shame'? The point being, the Quran does not elaborate with what would have 'otherwise' happened. Thus these questions are highly hypothetical and serve no real purpose. In the main, it can be argued that it is only natural that offspring would suffer a change of circumstances as a result of the conditions created by their forefathers. This is evident throughout history and continues to happen even today.
However, what is clear as I have respectfully demonstrated, Adam and his progeny would have received some sort of trial, which would have resulted in bloodshed (as the angels intimated 2:30), regardless of whether or not Adam ate from the forbidden tree. This is an important point often missed.
Having said that, Adam's progeny would still receive respite, plentiful provision / resources and guidance amidst wretchedness and turmoil as part of a wider plan for God to test his creation so that good can be manifested and be separated from evil. This goes to the heart of why God created man in the first place which is clearly stated in the Quran.
010:004
"....To Him is your return, of all (of you). The promise of God (made) in truth. Indeed, He originates the creation, then He repeats it, that He may with justice recompense those who believe and do good deeds; and (as for) those who disbelieve, they shall have a drink of boiling fluid and a painful punishment because they used to disbelieve"
A canvas of life to separate truth from falsehood.
021.016-18
"And We did not create the Heaven and the Earth and what is between them for mere play / sport. If We intended that We take a pastime, We could surely have taken it from the things nearest to Us, if We would do (such a thing)! Nay! We cast the truth (Arabic: bil-haqi) against the falsehood (Arabic: l-batili), so that it breaks its head, and lo! falsehood does perish! and woe to you for which you ascribe!"
As my response to Seraphina has seemingly satisfied her original questions, please can I kindly and respectfully ask you and other members on this forum to accept my response as my last on this matter on this thread.
Regards,
Joseph
REFERENCES:
[1] Was Adam the First Prophet or Messenger?
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=368.0
[2] What are Prophets?
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1459.0
[3] THEORY OF EVOLUTION AND THE QURAN
http://quransmessage.com/articles/evolution%20FM3.htm
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Thank you brother Joseph. Now I am fully clarified.
JazakAllah khair and salam alaykum.