QM Forum
The Quran => General Discussions => Topic started by: ZKAB90 on May 07, 2016, 07:34:44 AM
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"Syria has been mentioned in ahadith in many places in relation to the blessings Allah gave it and the blessings of it's people, along with Ahadith about events that will occur there marking the nearness of the hour"
"the significance of the war in Syria as one of the events that will lead to the Major Signs"
"the era of tyrants comes to an end with the war in Syria and the era of the Khalifa (Mahdi) begins"
"The war in Syria is significant [...] because it marks a major point [...], the end of Muslim lands being ruled by dictators, since the ‘Arab spring’ has removed all other dictators and the Syrian regime is last one in Islamic Lands"
"The Prophet of Allah (saws) said: After me will come caliphs, and after the caliphs will come princes, and after princes there will be kings and after the kings, there will be tyrants. And after the tyrants a man from My House will fill the earth with justice and after him is al-Qahtani (a man in the time of Isa (as)), By the One who sent me with the Truth! Not a word less.
A scholar said regarding the different dynasties found in these narration’s: “We see that the caliphs spoken of in this hadith are “the Rightly- Guided Ones”: Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali, may Allah the Exalted be pleased with them all. The princes are the Umayyad Caliphs of Damascus and the Abbasid Caliphs of Baghdad. As for the kings, they are the Ottoman Sultans of Istanbul. Following the kings, according to the hadith, are tyrants and that is what is commonly seen today. Finally, what for us is a prediction: the appearance of a man from the family of the Prophet who will rule with justice” (the Mahdi)."
"The Duhaima, september the 11th, it’s ramifications are global and not just in Islam it is literally the event that will lead the world to the coming of the Dajjaal (Allah’s curse be upon him) because it decided the world into two camps this with religion and those without religion"
"The Ahadith about events at the end of time take on a global nature because Allah will test the entire world with what is going to occur, initially they refer to Muslims but as we get closer to the Mahdi (ra) and the Dajjaal (Allah's curse be upon him) they begin to refer to all people on earth"
"Abdullah ibn 'Amr ibn Aas reported that the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) said
<<How will you (act) when the time draws near when people will be sifted (2001); the covenants (business) of people will be corrupted and the people will differ (sorted into two camps); then they will be like this," and he intertwined his fingers (social media with the advent of the internet, and telecommunications technology). They said, "How should we (act), O Messenger of Allah?" He said, " Take what you know to be good and leave what you repudiate; betake yourselves to your own private affairs and leave off the affairs of the general public>> (The responsibility for Fard Kifaya, communal obligations, after 2001 is lifted from us) (Abu Dawood, Ibn Majah and Ahmad related the same Hadeeth through different chains).
Here the prophet (saws) described the modern era, “the covenants of people will be corrupted (business will be corrupt) and the people will differ (the sorting of people into two camps); then they will be like this, and he intertwined his fingers” indicating the Globalization of the world and people's lives becoming connected to each other around the world through the internet, social media and all telecommunications technology and because of all this the prophet (saws) lifted the responsibility of Fard Kifaya, communal obligations, from muslims they won’t be asked about it on the day of judgment any longer."
"<<then they will be like this, and he intertwined his fingers>>, peoples lives would become intertwined, it was around 2004 that the internet and mass telecommunication devices like mobile phones gained mass penetration, technology also made travel around the world easy and the world was explored and discovered like never before"
"ISIS was made for “the protection of the Jewish state” in order to keep the enemies of Israel engaged"
“<<They [the ISIS fighters and others factions] will be killed, defeated, then the Hashimite will appear, so Allah will restore unity and favors to the people and this will be the case until the Dajjaal (the lying, false messiah) comes>>. The Hashimi (which is his lineage from Bani Hashim) as it is mentioned later in other narration’s is called “al Mansur”. He is General of the Army that will come from the East carrying black flags in order to establish the dominion of the Mahdi (ra), before he emerges, the Hadith is saying shortly after the civil war in Syria ends the river Euphrates will dry up and the Black flags will come from the east conquering Arabia and Israel, when muslims see this unity will again return to the hearts of muslims and it will remain like this until the Dajjal (Allah’s curse be upon him) appears"
"In this hadith [i.e. Sunan Ibn Majah (Kitab-al-fitan) Hadith 4082] is the reason why Allah will destroy the Arabs, the black flags will come from the east conquering Arab lands, they will instruct them to act according to Islam but the Arabs will refuse to Accept Islam so they will defeat them, afterwards Allah will only leave 1/3 of them alive before the Mahdi (ra) emerges driving many from their home lands due to prolonged war. The phrasing in the earlier hadith “the destruction of the Kings” is the prophet (saws) announcing when the end of the Saudi Kingdom would begin and what it’s will be, it is the Kingdom in charge of the Holy Lands and in many Ahadith referring to Saudi Arabia shortly after a civil war among three of their present rulers son’s, the Saudi Kingship would come to an end."
"The Duhaima [i.e. 11 september 2001] is the beginning of this punishment:
<<There will be, after the fitnah in ash-Sham (wars during the 70’s and 80’s), the eastern one which will be the destruction of the Kings and the Humiliation of the Arabs>>"
Extracts from "The Syrian Uprising and Signs Of The Hour", a book which I STRONGLY SUGGEST TO READ !! https://sunnahmuakadasupplementary.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/2nd-ed-the-syrian-uprising-and-signs-of-the-hour.pdf
It seems to me that all the prophecies in the Ahadith regarding the approach of the Hour [that you can discover in the book which link I posted and MANY MORE] have been fulfilled. So, we are near the appearance of the Mahdi, after it will come the Dajjal and after it will descend Jesus.
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Salam ZkAB90,
With all due respect, I am of the opinion that your presence on this forum is not that of someone who shares his views with the goal of it being challenged or with the goal of other forum members sharing their humble take on said views.
Rather (it seems to me) that you are only bent on propagating your views and when I and others respond to your many post (or cite you relevant article from brother Joseph Islam) you fail to respond back and instance proceed to posting another post (and so on...)
A case in point is this post which I am responding to. In this post you (or those whom you cite) attempt to make the claim that the end is near or that the prophet has predicted some event that are to occur prior to the world ending. Yet (as you may be aware of) I have already (on another similar post of yours) made clear to you that such predictions must be dismissed as baseless, sense the Quran made it abundantly clear that neither the prophet nor anyone else (save Allah) knows of the unseen and when the world will come to an end. Yet, as evident by this post of yours, you have dismissed that reply of mine and instead proceed to once again posting a post which makes the case for the end being near failing to take into account that NO ONE KNOWS OF WHEN THE END WILL COME SAVE ALLAH.[1]
Perhapse you will consider taking the following verses (which I have shared with you before) into account prior to posting a similar post in the future:
"Verily the knowledge of the Hour is with Allah (alone). It is He Who sends down rain, and He Who knows what is in the wombs. Nor does anyone know what it is that he will earn on the morrow: Nor does anyone know in what land he is to die. Verily with Allah is full knowledge and He is acquainted (with all things)." [Al-Qur'an 31:34]
"They ask thee about the (final) Hour - when will be its appointed time? Say: 'The knowledge thereof is with my Lord (alone): none but He can reveal as to when it will occur. Heavy were its burden through the heavens and the earth. Only, all of a sudden will it come to you.' They ask thee as if thou were eager in search thereof: say: 'The knowledge thereof is with Allah (alone), but most men know not.' " [Al-Qur'an 7:187]
Allah (continuously) says in the quran that the prophet was no more than a human being and had no such knowledge of the last hour. As demonstrated by the following ayats:
"Say, (O Muhammed) "I am no more than a human being like you...." [Quran 18:110]
"Say (O Muhammed), "I am not different from other messengers. I have no idea what will happen to me or to you. I only follow what is revealed to me. I am no more than a profound warner." [Quran 46:9][/u
"Say (O Muhammed), "I have no power to benefit myself, or harm myself. Only what God wills happen to me. If I KNEW THE FUTURE, I would have increased my wealth, and no harm would have afflicted me. I am no more than a warner, and a bearer of good news for those who believe." [Quran 7:188 ]
"Say (O Muhammed), "I do not say to you that I possess the treasures of God. Nor do I know the future..." [Quran 6:50]
So the logic from the four ayahs I quoted can be broken down as follows:
Human beings cannot predict any part of the future; prophet Muhammad was a human being; therefore he (Muhammad) could not have foretold the future.
The Quran explicitly and consistently informs its readers that nothing in the Heavens or the Earth has knowledge of the hour. This knowledge is ONLY with God and that it can befall almost suddenly with no premise.
There are also no indications or premise given in the Quran that would inform one when the hour will come to pass as this would contradict the Quranic maxim that the Day of Judgment may come on you suddenly.
022:055
"And those who disbelieve shall not cease to be in doubt concerning it until the hour overtakes them suddenly, or there comes on them the chastisement of a destructive day"
016:077
"And to God belongs the unseen of the heavens and the Earth, and the matter of the Hour (of doom) is but as a twinkling of the eye, or it is nearer still. Indeed! God is able to do all things"
[b[/b]
[1]http://quransmessage.com/forum/forum.htm
[2]http://quransmessage.com/articles/is%20second%20coming%20attested%20by%20the%20quran%20FM3.htm
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=201.0
http://quransmessage.com/articles/is%20second%20coming%20attested%20by%20the%20quran%20FM3.htm
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Peace ZKAB90.
GOD gave us the "eyes,ears and brain" as humans and made us responsible/accountable for their usage.
GOD also provided us in Qoran with lessons and arguments based on reasoning and critical & logical thinking to assist us.
Qoran helps us heed and learn the art of presenting and promoting the truth in the most efficient manner.
Presenters of either the truth or falsehood have THE BURDEN OF PROOF. The truth will always be verifiable using Qoran and will always stand high, shiny & non-negotiable while it will always be impossible to prove falsehood.
Those who introduce falsehood or attribute faulty claims, concepts or teachings to God and His message/Messenger cannot stand any logical debate. The reason is that they will always fail to prove their contradictory and irrational stands and they will never have support for their "theories" in Qoran.
Think about it. Your view/post here contradicts Qoran.
For me ,those who are waiting for "Dajjal" are welcome to wait for him/her/it....Qoran does not support such a view.
For me also, there is nothing interesting or useful to add in this topic,except everyone has no choice but to wait. Meanwhile do not neglect preparing for the "promised day". That is the most important thing to do.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Salam ZkAB90,
With all due respect, I am of the opinion that your presence on this forum is not that of someone who shares his views with the goal of it being challenged or with the goal of other forum members sharing their humble take on said views.
Rather (it seems to me) that you are only bent on propagating your views and when I and others respond to your many post (or cite you relevant article from brother Joseph Islam) you fail to respond back and instance proceed to posting another post (and so on...)
Aleikum salam Hassan,
Look: this prophecy had been fulfilled. This is not hadith propaganda as you believe.
This is a neutral and objective challenge. The hadith still be there. Muhammad wasn't able to deduce by hitself the unseen. We both are agree in this.
However this don't undermine the exactitude of this hadith. Don't?
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To GOOD LOGIC and HASSAN: read about this fulfilled prophecy in the Hadith
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We have an astonishing prophecy in the Hadiths who has been fulfilled, and this indicates the End is near.
"When the shepherds of black camels start boasting and competing with others in the construction of higher buildings. And the Hour is one of five things which nobody knows except Allah"
Bukhari, Book 2, Hadith 43 http://sunnah.com/bukhari/2/43
The shepherds of black camels refers to Arabs [of the Arabian Peninsula] because they used to be shepherds, and the black camels are a native specie of Arabian Peninsula.
The key word here is ”compete”, which in the given context suggests constructions for the sake of status and prestige, as opposed to addressing practical needs
Look at this photo: http://newsrescue.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Screen-Shot-2015-11-26-at-2.56.48-AM-736x589.png, you will see the HUGE and ENORMOUS change who took in Dubai in only a few years, incrementing year after year!
It is absolutely no co-incidence that the worlds tallest skyscraper, the worlds tallest lighthouse and the worlds tallest clocktower are all in Arab lands.
The Arab skyscraper prophecy is important because its fulfillment (among certain other prophecies not covered in this thread) signals the beginning of the end times.
This was referring to the future, not the past, so it refers to "today": the prophecy of the tall buildings is point #9 in a list of 11 events.
Another hadith supports this prophecy:
"[...] you will find barefooted, destitute goat-herds vying with one another in the construction of magnificent buildings [...]" http://sunnah.com/muslim/1/1
Some buildings are still in construction phase and soon will be included in the list of greatest skyscrapers in the world.
Pentominium, Dubai (516 m)
Burj Al Alam, Dubai (510 m)
Diamond Tower, Jeddah (432 m)
Dream Dubai Marina (432 m)
Marina 106, Dubai (425 m)
Lighthouse Tower, Dubai (402 m)
Capital Market Authority Headquarters, Riyadh (400 m)
You can look here for more informations: http://beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2014/06/the-end-is-near-reaching-for-the-skies-2461768.html
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If both of you still claims that all the Hadith corpus is fake then explain WHY this very prophecy had been fulfilled. There is no burden of proof here, sorry.
This is, indeed, another proof [and a very strong one] we are living in the start of the End Times.
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Peace ZKAB90.
I am happy to discuss Qoran with you.
Whether Hadiths, Nostradamus or any other writings claim whatever ,is irrelevant .
Thank you brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Peace to you GOOD LOGIC.
However, if your answer will be like 'I only discuss Qu'ran" then you can save your time [and mine].
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Dear ZKAB90
Actually, You could of saved us a whole lot of time by not posting something that has nothing to do with Islam or the Quran.
The guys and girls on this forum have made it perfectly clear that they do not take the words of Hadith as Gospel.
Maybe you should try and forget or unlearn what the sunni school of thought has taught you all these years. Because, to be blunt, the whole Islamic world is in tatters as a result of the skewed understandings of your Ulama's, sheikhs and muftis.
Tell me one good thing the Islamic world has brought to us in modern times? Tell me, If so you believe n Hadiths as revelation from God as well, Would we all be doomed to hell at end times? it is stated only 1% of the total muslim population at end times would be considered true believers. Chances are, me and you and billions more are destined to hell according to your hadith.
And since only 1% are true believers, does that not make our religious clerics, muftis and ulamas useless and untrustworthy as well?
And if that's the case, why are we still listening to them? or in this case, you.
All i see is right now, are Muslims trying to play/act out what they read in hadiths to at least bring some truthfulness to the lie. So that gullible people like you will be easily pulled in. How many times have we seen rebels with black flags? How many times have we seen the muslims play this out only to fail? Many times.
The Powers that be (West) are already staging many things based on the many religious beliefs. Kinda like how the Marvel movies are made based on a comic book written 60 to 70 years ago.
the material is there, They just need to play it out and make it believable.
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Salam ZKAB90
You have claimed that there is a prediction in the Hadiths that Arabs or desert dwellers will compete with each other to build skyscrapers and this will signal the end of times. Let's take a look at whether this is only an Arab phenomenon or a worldwide one.
The list you have provided is as follows:
Pentominium, Dubai (516 m)
Burj Al Alam, Dubai (510 m)
Diamond Tower, Jeddah (432 m)
Dream Dubai Marina (432 m)
Marina 106, Dubai (425 m)
Lighthouse Tower, Dubai (402 m)
Capital Market Authority Headquarters, Riyadh (400 m)
I am providing a link below interested parties can take a look and decide for themselves:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_buildings_in_the_world
Only 2 buildings on the list are made on Arab soil among the top 10. ONLY 2. So, no, they are not build by Arabs and Arabs are not competing to build tall buildings. Arabs are nowhere near. The country with most numbers of tallest buildings is China. Again China is a leader. Please verify before posting information which proves to be untrue upon 'googling' it.
This is not a prophecy, it is an indication of how far we have come as a world community. With technological development we are getting better at building better and bigger things. Or we can go the other way and make things slimmer and smaller, like in the world of PCs, smartphones and other electronics.
Maybe you have heard of a little phenomenon called ' self fulfilling prophecy'. You are picking and choosing to post information that prove your beliefs, and overlooking information that can prove your beliefs to be unfounded and untrue. Alas, most Muslims are hell bent on that.
Time moves forward, as a result anything that happens will only be an indication that the end of times is near. This is because , If it was near 1400 years ago, it is more so now by using simple logic. As more time passes we will get closer to the end of times. This is not a prediction, it is a given, inescapable reality!
Even though Adam has beat me to it, but I will still say that, you kind sir are wasting our time not the other way around. I have noticed that you have failed to provide convincing, explicit proof from the Quran for most of your claims, but brother Goodlogic and some others have kindly answered and refuted your claims. You are using this forum to dispel with unfounded claims and when they are refuted with Quran or simple logic for that matter, you refuse to budge from your position. Not only that, you overlook our suggestions of verifying information before posting and simply go about posting whatever you want. Let me remind you that the forum and it's accompanying website is called 'quransmessage.com' not 'Let'sdiscusseverywhimsicalfantasyIhaveaboutIslam.com'.
We are people who respect other people who have taken their precious time out to help us better understand the Quran, God's undisputed revelation. We do not insult them, when they have been kind enough to take time out of their real lives, to help unknown people in the virtual world. Most of us here, find solace in finding similar minded souls and discussing God's book with them. You kind sir, are only deterring us from this. I hereby will leave you with a prediction of my own, ' keep up what you are doing, and soon you will have none of us bother to engage in a discussion with you. and this will signify the end of times! '
Have a good day!
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Dear ZKAB90
Actually, You could of saved us a whole lot of time by not posting something that has nothing to do with Islam or the Quran.
The guys and girls on this forum have made it perfectly clear that they do not take the words of Hadith as Gospel.
Maybe you should try and forget or unlearn what the sunni school of thought has taught you all these years. Because, to be blunt, the whole Islamic world is in tatters as a result of the skewed understandings of your Ulama's, sheikhs and muftis.
Tell me one good thing the Islamic world has brought to us in modern times? Tell me, If so you believe n Hadiths as revelation from God as well, Would we all be doomed to hell at end times? it is stated only 1% of the total muslim population at end times would be considered true believers. Chances are, me and you and billions more are destined to hell according to your hadith.
And since only 1% are true believers, does that not make our religious clerics, muftis and ulamas useless and untrustworthy as well?
And if that's the case, why are we still listening to them? or in this case, you.
All i see is right now, are Muslims trying to play/act out what they read in hadiths to at least bring some truthfulness to the lie. So that gullible people like you will be easily pulled in. How many times have we seen rebels with black flags? How many times have we seen the muslims play this out only to fail? Many times.
The Powers that be (West) are already staging many things based on the many religious beliefs. Kinda like how the Marvel movies are made based on a comic book written 60 to 70 years ago.
the material is there, They just need to play it out and make it believable.
Hi Adam;
I'm not here to promoting Hadiths: there are a legion of videos, webs, etc, doing this.
I'm here to challenge Quran-alone think and to understand him better.
I post an astonishing prediction [in my opinion]. This prediction I bring with objective informations. You can deny this or explain this. But this indifference, in my humble opinion, is not a good signal.
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Salam ZKAB90
You have claimed that there is a prediction in the Hadiths that Arabs or desert dwellers will compete with each other to build skyscrapers and this will signal the end of times. Let's take a look at whether this is only an Arab phenomenon or a worldwide one.
The list you have provided is as follows:
Pentominium, Dubai (516 m)
Burj Al Alam, Dubai (510 m)
Diamond Tower, Jeddah (432 m)
Dream Dubai Marina (432 m)
Marina 106, Dubai (425 m)
Lighthouse Tower, Dubai (402 m)
Capital Market Authority Headquarters, Riyadh (400 m)
I am providing a link below interested parties can take a look and decide for themselves:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_buildings_in_the_world
Only 2 buildings on the list are made on Arab soil among the top 10. ONLY 2. So, no, they are not build by Arabs and Arabs are not competing to build tall buildings. Arabs are nowhere near. The country with most numbers of tallest buildings is China. Again China is a leader. Please verify before posting information which proves to be untrue upon 'googling' it.
This is not a prophecy, it is an indication of how far we have come as a world community. With technological development we are getting better at building better and bigger things. Or we can go the other way and make things slimmer and smaller, like in the world of PCs, smartphones and other electronics.
Aleikum salam.
If you have read the article, as I suggested, you would find this at the end of this article:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah’s Apostle said, “The Hour will not be established till the people compete with one another in constructing high buildings“.
Bukhari :: Book 88 :: Volume 9 :: Hadith 237
In the last decade, many tallest buildings were constructed in different parts of the world. Some of them are:
Shanghai Tower, China (632 m) constructed in 2014
One World Trade Centre, USA (541.3 m) constructed in 2013
Taipei 101, Taiwan (509 m) constructed in 2004
International Commerce Centre, Hong Kong (484 m) constructed in 2010
Petronas Tower, Malaysia (452) constructed in 1998
Al Hamra Firdous Tower, Kuwait (413 m) constructed in 2011
This hadith imply that isn't only the Arabs, but a general mindset!
I think you ignore the eschatology. If you had more knowledge you would know that this prophecy is listed number 9 of total of 11, in chronological order.
So, this isn't a "whimsical" talk, but an interesting topic and I starting understand that Quran-alone followers only deny without good proofs.
Well, everyone have his mindset, and I respect yours.
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Salam
I did not call it an Arab prophecy u did in post number 4. We all here do not base our religious opinion on whims. Most of us meticulously research and then humbly post to share with an aim to learn. No part of life or afterlife in our discussions are subject to unverified information. We all strive to maintain that we do not take hadiths or any other source of information as gospel or above reproach. We do not present things about religion be it referring to afterlife or this life as absolute truth until it is in the Quran.
No u r not trying to understand our position or our approach to understanding Quran. U r rather overlooking it. U r hellbent on quoting other sources when u know we only use the Quran to verify and form religious opinions. We have told u repeatedly that we do not consider hadith as evidence what else is your purpose behind quoting hadiths other than telling us you do not care about our approach whatsoever. As I have realized, it is futile to engage in a discussion with u.
U have made a comment that it seems we uphold the quran alone because of our whims, with all due respect, we have provided proofs about why we uphold the quran and not the hadiths. U on the other hand have been unable to prove that hadiths are part of the revelation. If u expect we will take your word for it and not refute or verify ourselves, then u have indeed come to the wrong forum.
Even the proofs we gave u for following the Quran alone, are from the Quran! If Quran is not a source of 'good proofs' for u then I do not know what will suffice!
I do not find heresay about religion interesting! It is alike making castles in the air. If your claims where from the Quran, I would have engaged in further discussions with u! But it seems u will only quote hadith so I share goodlogics sentiment, there will be further discussion with u only when u start quoting verses from the Quran as evidence.
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And also moreover even if I say that one day food will become a pill, and it happens in the future, it will signal end of times, simply because time moves forward.
Human minds imagine things first and then make them. So, yes skyscrapers were imaginary once, now a reality. This is simply because we can make them. Anything that we say we will make one day, and we make it tomorrow will be a part of the time that the end is near. Because the end is inevitably moving closer.
Nikola tesla predicted cellphones and smartphones 89 years ago. Please tell me how was he able to do that? Did he receive revelation? U do not need to receive revelation to predict technological developments, u need to study human nature! Humans want bigger and better things, so it is not astonishing that someone in the past was intellingent enough to say that we might be able to build bigger buildings! This does not mean that someone was receiving revelations! Nikola tesla was not a prophet, yet he predicted many things. Things are getting ridiculous now!
We never denied that the end is near, but we deny that anything or anyone can help us predict when! With each passing day the end is nearer, even if we choose to sit idle and do nothing
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Well Nura:
I don't want to mind you more than I did.
I don't want to discuss the authenticity of the Ahadith.
You believe in the self-reliance of the Qu'ran? Well for you.
In my opinion, some Ahadith, specially the very spread in the early times after the demise of Muhammad must be taken seriously.
You don't? Well, as I said, everyone have his practices and beliefs.
Nura, can we discuss about punishment in the grave with the Qu'ran? I think that it is mentioned. I will post only quranic quotes that seems to be indications to it; I won't post Ahadiths.
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There is no punishment of grave as per Quran. Please read Bro Joseph Islam's article on Punisment in Grave you will be enlightened.
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There is no punishment of grave as per Quran. Please read Bro Joseph Islam's article on Punisment in Grave you will be enlightened.
Hi, I know that.
But, however, I read an apologist article claiming that some words may indicates a punishment. For example, the "then" and the "twice" of the 9:101 and the verse which is talking that the dead in the way of Allah are living ones, and not dead.
So, from a Quran-alone perspective it is only speculation talking about a punishment in the grave. However, maybe this understanding of the Qur'an didn't considered these words. I do not know and I read the article of J. Islam. Sooner or later all people will see if it true or not. Actually I say 60% no and 40% yes. I'm confuse.
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Salam ZKAB90
I sincerely want to ask you, Hassan A has kindly provided evidence from the quran indicating that the prophet did not possess information about the end of times.
So, if we are to believe that Quran is the word of Allah, then Allah is telling us that His prophet does not know when the end of times will arrive or of any prior signs.
The hadiths on the other hand say the prophet knew about it and has talked about the signs.
I ask you, will you believe Allah's word? : the prophet did not know
or Hadith? : Prophet knew.
Do you realize what you are trying to do? If you can prove that the prophet knew about the end of times and talked about it, then Allah was lying in the Quran (Astagfirullah). If what u r saying, that the hadiths are from the prophet, and they are true, then the verses of the Quran are false. Because either the prophet knew or he did not.
The Quran says he did not, Hadith says he did. So, what is it going to be? Will you believe what Allah says in the Quran? or will you say the Quran contains false information about the prophet, which would mean the Quran conains falsehood, and Allah lied in the Quran( Astagfirullah)
There is no way around it.
Regarding, grave punishment, I will post in that thread about my point of view
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Because either the prophet knew or he did not.
I understand your position. Words are importants and if the Prophet knowed it by hitself or by another revelation, this is the difference.
However I'm more interested in the "punishment in the grave" topic that the Ahadith.
It was just for showing that some Hadith can be vague but maybe, at the same time, correct.
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Because either the prophet knew or he did not.
I understand your position. Words are importants and if the Prophet knowed it by hitself or by another revelation, this is the difference.
However I'm more interested in the "punishment in the grave" topic that the Ahadith.
It was just for showing that some Hadith can be vague but maybe, at the same time, correct.
How will the Prophet know about religion by himself ? that is not possible. Things about religion was revealed to him by Allah, the Quran was brought to the Prophet by Gabriel. The Quran did not become revealed by itself to the prophet, the messages from God where conveyed by Gabriel.
By another revelation? so revelation outside the Quran? so Hadith is revelation?
Even if for argument's sake I agree that Hadith is revelation, then hadith and Quran both are revelation. But the problem remains, God was then lying in one of His revelations, i.e Quran!
Look, you can believe in Hadith or other sources all you want, but when they contradict the Quran, then one of the sources is untrue.
even if Hadith is revelation, then the Quran contains falsehood.
The Quran says prophet did not know, then to believe otherwise is to say the Quran contains falsehood.
The problem with Hadith is that, Hadith corpus itself does not say it is Allah's word. Even people who believe in hadith confess that it is alleged prophet's word. The prophet did not say the hadiths are revelations but he did say the Quran is revelation and not his words, but Allah's word.
Revelation is from Allah, all of it must be true, if hadith is revelation, then why do even hadith scholars grade hadiths? Have you ever heard of grading verses of the Quran? Have you ever heard of people grading Quran verses as Sahih, hassan, or mauzo?
The hadith scholars themselves confess that there is fabrication and contradiction in hadith. But Allah says his revelation cannot be contradictory. Allah says clearly in Quran, that if the Quran were from any other source than God, then it would be filled with contradictions.
Existence of contradictions signal hadiths are not revelations.
Hadith maybe vague, but they can only be correct when they do not contradict the Quran. Even hadith beleivers say that those hadiths that contradict Quran is false and cannot be true.
Only hadiths that do not contradict the Quran have a chance of being true. but, still it is blind faith.
If you want to believe in hadiths, please do, but those that contradict the Quran cannot be true. But,one is free to believe whatever they choose. But, I will warn against believing things about religion without any basis.
No one has said that truth is only contained in the Quran. Snippets of truth can be found in newspapers, books, magazines or any source of information. But that is not revelation. There is a difference.
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No one has said that truth is only contained in the Quran. Snippets of truth can be found in newspapers, books, magazines or any source of information. But that is not revelation. There is a difference.
I pasting right now a critique to Quran-alone school by the followers of the Ahadith:
The mode by which the Qur'aan was transmitted is the same as the way in which the Ahadeeth were transmitted - from generation to generation. The individuals who transmitted the Qur'aan were the same who have transmitted the hadeeth. To accept one and reject the other defies reason. Moreover, the Qur'aanic promise of protection must apply to Hadeeth as well for there is no point in protecting the words but not the interpretation.
It isn't about the truth of Ahadith, it isn't about the contradictions in the Ahadith [or alleged, because you know the mental gymnastic that Sunnis doing to fit them] that trouble me. The fear is well summarized in the red quote I posted.
Who guarantee that the Qu'ran we have is the Real one? Because of scientific miracles or the numerical ones? What guarantee us that this Qu'ran is complete?. The fact that Allah say that He protect it doesn't means that this sentence can't be added by people whow write down it to make more certain that is the complete one.
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Furthermore, in this thread HIKMA means indeed HADITHS and not WISDOM http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1918.0 I posted a good rebuttal, in my opinion, took from a Sunni web.
This explain the obligatory to follow the Sunna.
So, we have two points for the Ahadith:
1/ Follow the Sunna of the Prophet [and in this thread I posted the link to the 19 quranic quotes that requires us to follow the Sunna, so you won't be able to say me that I only focuse to the Ahadith and disregard the Qu'ran]
2/ The Qu'ran was compiled by the same people who memorized [and some written down] the acts and sayings of the Prophet. Amazing, isn't?
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Salam ZKAB90,
You said:
The mode by which the Qur'aan was transmitted is the same as the way in which the Ahadeeth were transmitted - from generation to generation. The individuals who transmitted the Qur'aan were the same who have transmitted the hadeeth.
I disagree. The claim that the hadith was preserved the much the same way as the Quran is utter nonsense. As brother Joseph Islam alluded to in one of his article (which I'll link below):
This statement has no basis. Most (if not all) reports within the ahadith corpus are based on ‘Ahad reports’ or singular transmissions (sole witnesses to the narrative) and collected centuries removed from source by later compilers with many discrepancies. For example in the main, what Abu Hurairah narrates, no one else narrates the same Hadith. This is an example of an 'Ahad' report or witness. The Quran in contrast has not reached us by 'Ahad' witnesses, but rather, it has been transmitted in its entirety by a consensus of the community (mutawwatir) long before any ahadith works were compiled or canonized.
Furthermore, it is pertinent to question why were ‘isnads’ (chain of narrators) are not required for each verse of the Quran? This is a very sound question. Why did the early Islamic community not deem it necessary to provide ‘isnads’ for every verse of the Quran?
Heres the link: http://quransmessage.com/articles/how%20do%20we%20know%20the%20quran%20was%20preserved%20if%20nor%20for%20ahadith%20FM3.htm
Furthermore, I am of the believe that the Quran was compiled toghter during the life time of the prophet (pbuh) and not centries later as is the case with the hadith. Consider this:
"(It is) in sheets / pages held (greatly) in honor (Arabic: fi suhufin mukarrama), Exalted (in dignity), kept pure and holy (Arabic: marfu'atin mutahhara), (Written) by the hands of scribes. (Arabic: bi'aydi safara), honorable and pious and just (Arabic: kiramin barara)" [Quran 80:13-16]
The above verse, in my humble opinion, supports the claim that the Quran was written down by noble scribes at/during the time of the prophet.
Consider the following verse as well:
“Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than God; that which hath been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death; that which hath been (partly) eaten by a wild animal; unless ye are able to slaughter it (in due form); that which is sacrificed on stone (altars); (forbidden) also is the division (of meat) by raffling with arrows: that is impiety. This day have those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: yet fear them not but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favor upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, God is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful”. [Quran 5:3]
In the above verse, pay close attention to the words "I have perfected your religion for you, completed my favor upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as a your religion". One must ask how it was possible to complete a ‘Deen’ (a system / religion) without the bedrock of instructions formulated and referenced by scripture? One must therefore posit the possible conclusion that for a 'Deen' to be complete, the scripture must have taken its final form.
Also pay close attention to the words "he has got them written" in the following verse, further confirming that the Quran was written during the lifetime of the prophet as the disbelievers are seen accusing him (Muhammad) of writing down ‘ancient stories’ (referring to the Quran as ‘ancient stories’):
“And they (disbelievers) say: The stories of the ancients – he (Muhammad) has got them written - so these are read out to him morning and evening” [Quran 25:5]
Lastly, in 2:282 the Quran puts heavy emphasis on the need to write business transactions and highlights the importance of this; these are the guidelines for regular day to day matters. So the idea/argument that the prophet (to whom the Quran was sent to) departed this earth without him having written down the Quran or seeking to it that it was, to me sound unbelievable. So the writing of business transactions was/is considered important (as shown in 2:282) but the Book which was to provide guidance to mankind wasn't important enough to write down (during the life-time of the prophet)? What sense does that make?
As alluded to by Joseph Islam in one of his article:
2) If we are to trust that the Quran was compiled years after the death of the prophet (as is the case with the hadith) what, then, should we make of those same sources raising doubts to the Quran’s preservation with claims such as:
•That verses were missing and a goat ate the stoning verse with regards to adultery
• That the Prophet of God introduced the Satanic verses
• That Caliph Uthman burnt the extant copies of the Quran
• That there was a missing suckling verse (Ten clear sucklings which made the marriage unlawful, then it was later abrogated (and substituted) by five sucklings and then was somehow removed or missed from the Quran altogether
• That there was a missing Ibn Adam verse (regarding Ibn Adam's possession of a wadi of property)
• That there was a missing 'pleasing' verse from the Quran (regarding those that were slain at Bi'r Mauna which included the verse "Inform our tribe on our behalf that we have met with our Lord. He has been well pleased with us and has satisfied our desires)
• And many others, from al-Baraa, verses that were lost with dead Muslims, cancelled and repealed verses and those forgotten by the Prophet himself and those lost by Quranic reciters
http://quransmessage.com/articles/how%20do%20we%20know%20the%20quran%20was%20preserved%20if%20nor%20for%20ahadith%20FM3.htm
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Salam ZKAB90,
You said:
the Qur'aanic promise of protection must apply to Hadeeth as well for there is no point in protecting the words but not the interpretation.
I'm I correcting in assuming that you are of the believe that the hadith interprets the Quran? If so, then I disagree.
Upon you is the burden to proof, solely from a Quran, the requirement of other sources being necessary to explain the Quran (which you haven't yet done).
Consider the following verses which attest to the fact that the Quran is self-explanatory:
"A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail / distinguished (Arabic: Fussilat); a Quran in Arabic, for people who understand". [Quran 41:3]
"A. L. R. (This is) a Book, with verses perfected, moreover explained in detail / distinguished (Arabic: Fussilat) from One Who is Wise and Well-acquainted (with all things)". [Quran 11:1]
"Ta, Seen. These are the verses of the Qur'an and a clear Book" [Quran 27:1]
"These are the verses of the clear Book." [Quran]
"These are the verses of the clear Book" [Quran 26:2]
"Alif, Lam, Ra. [This is] a Book whose verses are perfected and then presented in detail from [one who is] Wise and Acquainted." [Quran 11:1]
"Alif, Lam, Ra. These are the verses of the Book and a clear Qur'an." [Quran 15:1]
How can a scripture (such as the Quran) which refers to itself as a “manifest light”(4:174) be shed more light on by another sources? How can a book which explains various things (16:89; 20:133) itself be in need of further explanation by other sources?
Furthermore, God made no guarantee to protect the Prophet's teachings in any form as he did with the Quran (15:9). To suggest that the Prophetic teachings have been protected in the Ahadith corpus which were not canonized until centuries after the death of the Prophet is also academically unwarranted.
You also said:
Who guarantee that the Qu'ran we have is the Real one? Because of scientific miracles or the numerical ones? What guarantee us that this Qu'ran is complete?. The fact that Allah say that He protect it doesn't means that this sentence can't be added by people who write down it to make more certain that is the complete one.
The Quran, in several verses, asks us to ponder over its message and perceive the truth of what it says. It is the truth of the Quran that is ultimately what should be used to convince someone; and it's that same truth which will convince one of its originality/authenticity. But if you are making the case that the Hadiths inform us of the Quran's authenticity, then what should we make of those same sources raising doubts to the Quran’s preservation with claims such as:
•That verses were missing and a goat ate the stoning verse with regards to adultery
• That the Prophet of God introduced the Satanic verses
• That Caliph Uthman burnt the extant copies of the Quran
• That there was a missing suckling verse (Ten clear sucklings which made the marriage unlawful, then it was later abrogated (and substituted) by five sucklings and then was somehow removed or missed from the Quran altogether
• That there was a missing Ibn Adam verse (regarding Ibn Adam's possession of a wadi of property)
• That there was a missing 'pleasing' verse from the Quran (regarding those that were slain at Bi'r Mauna which included the verse "Inform our tribe on our behalf that we have met with our Lord. He has been well pleased with us and has satisfied our desires)
• And many others, from al-Baraa, verses that were lost with dead Muslims, cancelled and repealed verses and those forgotten by the Prophet himself and those lost by Quranic reciters
http://quransmessage.com/articles/how%20do%20we%20know%20the%20quran%20was%20preserved%20if%20nor%20for%20ahadith%20FM3.htm
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Salam ZKAB90,
Sorry for the multiple posts (this being one of them) which I have burden you with in response to some claims you've been making in your recent posts on this thread.
You said:
Furthermore, in this thread HIKMA means indeed HADITHS and not WISDOM http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1918.0 I posted a good rebuttal, in my opinion, took from a Sunni web.
This explain the obligatory to follow the Sunna.
I jave already addressed your usage of the word Hikma to mean a secondary source in this post:
http://quransmessage.com/forum/forum.htm
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We have a whole "industry" running on future predictions of the blessed Nabi (S). Does the Quran support him having knowledge of future events?
We have people waiting for Mehdi and Eesa, Mujaddids at the start of each century; prediction of wayward scholars misleading the Ummah; Arabs building skyscrapers; Quran aloners, Dajjal, etc. etc. A new sect of Ahmedis claiming to be true and only Muslims was born based on such predictions. Each sect including ISIS find something in predictions to justify their existence.
Can someone provide evidence from the Quran proving that the blessed Nabi had knowledge of future events?
They ask you, [O Muhammad], about the Hour: when is its arrival? Say, "Its knowledge is only with my Lord. None will reveal its time except Him. It lays heavily upon the heavens and the earth. It will not come upon you except unexpectedly." They ask you as if you are familiar with it. Say, "Its knowledge is only with Allah , but most of the people do not know."
Say, "I hold not for myself [the power of] benefit or harm, except what Allah has willed. And if I knew the unseen, I could have acquired much wealth, and no harm would have touched me. I am not except a warner and a bringer of good tidings to a people who believe."....
..And when you, [O Muhammad], do not bring them a sign, they say, "Why have you not contrived it?" Say, "I only follow what is revealed to me from my Lord. This [Qur'an] is enlightenment from your Lord and guidance and mercy for a people who believe." [7: 187-203]
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Please check the following verses !
مَا كَانَ اللَّهُ لِيُطْلِعَكُمْ عَلَى الْغَيْبِ
ALLAH does not informs you of the unseen
3:179
عَالِمُ الْغَيْبِ فَلَا يُظْهِرُ عَلَىٰ غَيْبِهِ أَحَدًا
The Knower of the unseen! so He does not reveal His secrets to any
72:26
قُل لَّا أَقُولُ لَكُمْ عِندِي خَزَائِنُ اللَّهِ وَلَا أَعْلَمُ الْغَيْبَ
Say: I do not say to you, I have with me the treasures of Allah, nor do I know the unseen
6:50
قُل لَّا أَمْلِكُ لِنَفْسِي نَفْعًا وَلَا ضَرًّا إِلَّا مَا شَاءَ اللَّهُ وَلَوْ كُنتُ أَعْلَمُ الْغَيْبَ لَاسْتَكْثَرْتُ مِنَ الْخَيْرِ وَمَا مَسَّنِيَ السُّوءُ إِنْ أَنَا إِلَّا نَذِيرٌ وَبَشِيرٌ لِّقَوْمٍ يُؤْمِنُونَ
Say: I do not control any benefit or harm for my own soul except as Allah please; and had I known the unseen I would have had much of good and no evil would have touched me; I am nothing but a warner and the giver of good news to a people who believe.
وَلَوْ كُنتُ أَعْلَمُ الْغَيْبَ لَاسْتَكْثَرْتُ مِنَ الْخَيْرِ وَمَا مَسَّنِيَ السُّوءُ
and had I known the unseen I would have had much of good and no evil would have touched me
7:188
So if the prophets are not acquainted to the unseen(GHAIB), then how can any of us be ???
It's just that we have to keep things straight so that none of us may start considering the one close to ALLAH on one's ...
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Did prophet Muhammad know the future?
Answer from The Quran:
The Day God will gather the messengers and He will say: "What was the response you received?"; they said: "We have no knowledge, You are the Knower of all the unseen." [5:109]
Say: "I do not say to you that I possess God's treasures, nor do I know the unseen, nor do I say to you that I am an angel. I merely follow what is inspired to me." Say: "Are the blind and the seer the same? Do you not think?" [6:50]
Say: "I do not possess for myself any benefit or harm, except what God wills. And if I could know the unseen, then I would have increased my good fortune, and no harm would have come to me. I am but a warner and a bearer of good news to a people who believe." [7:188]
And they say: "If only a sign was sent down to him from His Lord." Say: "Indeed, the unseen is for God, so wait, and I will wait with you." [10:20]
"Nor do I say to you that I have the treasures of God, nor do I know the unseen, nor do I say that I am an angel, nor do I say to those whom your eyes look down upon that God will not grant them any good. God is more aware of what is in their souls; in such case I would be among the wicked." [11:31]
Say, "I am but a human being like you, being inspired that your god is One god. So whoever looks forward to meeting his Lord, then let him do good works and not set up any partner in the service of his Lord." [18:110]
Say: "None in the heavens or the Earth know the unseen except God. And they do not perceive when they will be resurrected."[27:65]
Say: "I am no different from the other messengers, nor do I know what will happen to me or to you. I only follow what is inspired to me. I am no more than a clear warner" [46:9]
Read Quran verses here www.quranix.net
Only God knows the future and this knowledge can be attained only through divine revelations/signs (3:44, 3:179, 11:49, 12:102, 30:2, 72:26-28).
And for those who follow the Traditional Ahadith, Sahih Bukhari:
Volume 9, Book 93, Number 477:
Narrated Masruq:
'Aisha said, "If anyone tells you that Muhammad has seen his Lord, he is a liar, for Allah says: 'No vision can grasp Him.' (6.103) And if anyone tells you that Muhammad has seen the Unseen, he is a liar, for Allah says: "None has the knowledge of the Unseen but Allah."
More articles: http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/