QM Forum
The Quran => General Discussions => Topic started by: wanderer on July 13, 2016, 07:04:16 AM
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Hi Joseph. I really appreciated your article on the "hurin" mentioned in the Holy Quran, but I'm still not convinced as to your view of the matter, particularly on the Surah Waqia verses. Is their any definite Quranic proof AGAINST the traditional interpretation of these beings?
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What's the "traditional perspective" of houris?
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That men are allowed to have intercourse with them in Jannah, as sourced from the "true" statements of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh)
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Peace. And you'd like elaboration on what, 56:37?
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I would like definite Quranic proof against this allegation, and in particular, against the fact that verses 56:35-38 are refering to hurs, and not, as Joseph asserts, to what will happen to believers in heaven.
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Dear Wanderer
Peace
In my humble view, I have presented my arguments clearly in the article [1] below from a Quran's perspective.
If you feel that a believer has to prove the 'traditional' position based on Islamic secondary sources [2] collated centuries after the death of the prophet as opposed to the primary source, the Quran, then with respect, you are gravely mistaken and have misunderstood the purpose of this forum and the Quran-centric approach [3], [4].
Rather, I respectfully assert that it is you that must prove the traditional position, or any 'Islamic' position for that matter, from the primary source, the Quran. With respect, the burden of proof is with you.
Therefore, can you please provide clear evidence that 56:35-38 mention 'Hurs' and further still, any evidence in the Quran that Hur refer specifically to women and that men are to have intercourse with them.
Unless you can provide clear proof from the primary source, the Quran, I feel it futile to have a protracted debate on this matter.
Regards,
Joseph
REFERENCES:
[1] SEXY FEMALE VIRGINS FOR MEN IN PARADISE - REALLY?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/sexy%20female%20virgins%20for%20men%20in%20heaven%20FM3.htm
[2] ISLAMIC SECONDARY SOURCES
http://quransmessage.com/articles/hadith%20FM2.htm
[3] Quran-centric - a powerful position indeed!
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/330796700390797
[4] TWO CRUCIAL DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE 'QURANIST' (ISM) AND 'QURAN-CENTRIC' APPROACH
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/542672849203180
[5] BURDEN OF PROOF - PROPHET ABRAHAM'S (pbuh) ARGUMENT
http://quransmessage.com/articles/burdenofproof%20FM3.htm
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I'm sorry, I should have made my points clearer. My main problem with your interpretation of verses 56:27-38, is that, if it was true, verse 56:36 should read: "And we SHALL make YOU virgins", in the future tense. In addition, I don't understand what verse 56:37 means under your interpretation. Please offer your thoughts on this.
Regards,
wanderer
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Dear Wanderer,
In my humble opinion, the expectation of 'you' that you assert is wholly unwarranted. Verses 56:27-34 evidently speak about the future of those who find God's felicity and will be of the right hand.
Verse 56:35 speaks of 'them' (i.e. the righteous folk) in plural. Verse 56:36 speaks of 'them' as being made virgins (i.e. again, those of the righteous folk). Verse 56:37 then speaks of them being equal in age and well matched (i.e. again, those of the righteous folk). Verse 56:38 then confirms that this is once again about the companions of the right hand.
The article clearly shares this perspective. Once again, there is no mention of 'Hurs' in these verses.
Can you therefore, with respect, provide me clear evidence of what I understand you kindly assert which is the traditional position; i.e. that these verses are speaking of another female creation called 'Hurs' with whom men will have sexual intercourse.
With respect, we simply cannot continue, unless you provide this clear evidence.
Regards,
Joseph
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I'm sorry if you see me as being antagonistic, let me assure you it is not my intention. This is simply an issue that I have trouble understanding, and am looking for information about. Please do not become impatient. My other source of great confusion is that the Quran speaks of marriage with the hurs in 44:54, and of "spouses pure" in another few verses. What will marriage be like in the Hereafter? And what will happen to our earthly spouses, who the Quran also says will join us in the Hereafter? These are very confusing questions for me, so if you could answer them that would be great.
Regards,
wanderer
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Peace. I'd like to mention that "وَزَوَّجْنَاهُمْ" doesn't mean that, it means "and we'll couple them".
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I'm sorry, what doesn't that mean, Elijah?
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Dear Wanderer,
Please don't feel I am becoming impatient. I am simply curtailing the need for protracted discussions. To truly understand a Quran-centric perspective, one really has to divorce themselves from traditional learnings and my approach at times is to respectfully provide that shift in thought by asking direct questions. Rather than getting the Quran to prove a traditional position, it is the traditional position that needs to find proof in the Quran.
In summary, please kindly see my responses to your queries in blue:
My other source of great confusion is that the Quran speaks of marriage with the hurs in 44:54
There is no mention of 'marriage' (nikaah) in verse 44:54 exclusively. This is an earthly concept. The Quran merely says 'zawaja / zawj' which simply doesn't mean marriage but also to pair / couple. Please kindly see how the word is used in 6:143 to describe twos of sheep and goats when taken in pairs or in verse 35:11 as a description of us humans being created in pairs (different genders). Therefore, this word simply speaks at best of pairing or companionship. We must be willing to forgo earth-centric interpretations when we will be created a new / different creation (56:35). A creation not yet fully unknown to us. With respect, I have covered this in the article.
What will marriage be like in the Hereafter?
This begs the question, why is this such a pressing matter when the Quran only seeks to present similitudes of a world that we cannot fully fathom?
And what will happen to our earthly spouses, who the Quran also says will join us in the Hereafter?
Where does the Quran say this? There are earthly spouses that will also enter hell-fire. Even some of the wives of the prophets were unrighteous. (See examples of Prophets Noah and Lot - 66:10). Why would all spouses be expected to go to heaven? Furthermore, why would that matter, when earthly ties will be severed and there will no bonds? (23:101 / 60:3). The guilty will even be prepared to ransom their own earthly children if they could (70:11) along with their spouse and brother (70:12), and the kindred that protected them on earth (70:13).
Of course, one will be able to regroup with the righteous of their relatives from earth, but that does not mean we interpret this as 'earthly bonds' or just near kinship. Verse 52:21 speaks about descendants and this may comprise of many earthly generations.
Please also kindly see the following thread:
Wordly couples in Jannah?
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1466.msg6728#msg6728
I hope this helps, God willing
Joseph
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Thank you for your detailed response Brother Joseph! For your information I was refering to your RIGHTEOUS spouses joining you in Jannah, but you still cleared up a lot of my questions nonetheless. What thing you didn't adress, however, was the "purified spouses" mentioned several times in the Quran. What is your opinion on this?
Regards,
wanderer
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Peace. Did you see that discussion (http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1466.msg6728#msg6728) too?
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Yes, I did, thank you Brother Elijah
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Dear Wanderer,
Please can you kindly share with me Quranic verses regarding these 'purified spouses', and what you expected me to address regarding them?
Please kindly recall that I've already shared verses that earthly bonds will be severed. Yes we may enter paradise with our righteous kinsfolk from earth, but I'm not sure what else you are alluding to and expect me to address.
Regards,
Joseph
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The verses are 2:25, 3:15, and 4:57. I am merely asking for your personal opinion as to what this term refers to.
Regards,
wanderer
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The word used in those (2:25, 3:15, 4:57) is "أَزْوَاجٌ", which is again from the verb translated as "to couple" that we've seen as وَزَوَّجْنَاهُمْ ("and we'll couple them") in 44:54; وَزَوَّجْنَاهُمْ بِحُورٍ عِينٍ. From that I'm of the perspective that those refer again to the بِحُورٍ عِينٍ.
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So what do you think is a better translation of these passages?
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Dear Wanderer,
As I have already shared and as Eliiah has also kindly shared, the term implies companionship, coupling and yes, if spoken in an earthly context, between man and woman, would imply lawful coupling through marriage.
However, as I've already intimated, in the Hereafter or with references to the Hereafter, earthly interpretations must be seen with caution as we are speaking of a world and existence largely unknown to us. Therefore, companion coupling, pairing or partnering is arguably the better rendition here.
I feel I have now exhausted this discussion and that you will kindly allow me to respectfully take leave from this topic.
I hope my responses hitherto have helped, God willing.
Regards,
Joseph :)
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Its interesting that lot of us, including me, are worried about the Hurs and etc. As if tickets are in our hands and we are in the cue and excited to know the details.
No hurt feelings, please. I also discuss these matters for a while with family and freinds. And as my hairs become gray, skin becomes wrikled i am getting more and more afraid whether i shall be thier or not? Now, sometimes I read those verses and it seems to me that I am a boy standing outside a cinema hall looking avariciously at the poster of a marvelous movie. And alas! I have not much money in my pocket.
Actually we must concentrate how to get the ticket.
Once again, no hurt feelings, please. This post is for myself.
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Salaam all
Really sorry to pursue this but is there any mention of gender in Jannah in the Quran?
Does the "pairing" or "coupling" allude to this?
Peace and regards,
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Peace All.
My understanding of "Hur" and "Hur een" is some sort of "cycles" of another life.
For example we are coupled in this life by a soul and a body. In the hereafter "Zawwajnahum bi-hur een" just means GOD will couple the new creation s soul by another "body" one that is different from this body. One that is pure...etc.
GOD also gives example of the fruits of paradise cycle of life. Every-time a fruit is picked it is replaced new like the first but untouched...
So, Cheers to all for a new life in a new body with new provisions in a new place ...But not as humans!
GOD bless.
Peace.
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Oh cool. That's one way of looking at pairing.
Thanks and please good logic.