QM Forum

The Quran => General Discussions => Topic started by: wanderer on July 26, 2016, 05:19:11 AM

Title: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: wanderer on July 26, 2016, 05:19:11 AM
Hi guys. I have a problem. I always knew that the Quran has been preserved by God throughout the centuries. However, now I hear that the Quran has a couple other slightly different versions cycling around in some parts of the world. I get that none of these differences impact the meaning of the Quran, but still how could God let there be be the slightest grammatical error in his Holy text?? This is really troubling me, please respond as soon as possible. Thank you
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: Truth Seeker on July 26, 2016, 09:53:48 AM
Salaam,

There is an article written on this topic by Joseph:

http://quransmessage.com/articles/seven%20readings%20FM3.htm (http://quransmessage.com/articles/seven%20readings%20FM3.htm)

I hope it helps IA
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: deleted on July 26, 2016, 09:54:03 AM
1 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s1.pdf)
2 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s2.pdf)
3 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s3.pdf)
4 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s4.pdf)
5 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s5.pdf)
6 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s6.pdf)
7 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s7.pdf)
8 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s8.pdf)
9 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s9.pdf)
10 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s10.pdf)

11 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s11.pdf)
12 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s12.pdf)
13 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s13.pdf)
14 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s14.pdf)
15 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s15.pdf)
16 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s16.pdf)
17 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s17.pdf)
18 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s18.pdf)
19 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s19.pdf)
20 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s20.pdf)

21 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s21.pdf)
22 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s22.pdf)
23 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s23.pdf)
24 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s24.pdf)
25 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s25.pdf)
26 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s26.pdf)
27 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s27.pdf)
28 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s28.pdf)
29 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s29.pdf)
30 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s30.pdf)

31 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s31.pdf)
32 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s32.pdf)
33 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s33.pdf)
34 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s34.pdf)
35 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s35.pdf)
36 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s36.pdf)
37 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s37.pdf)
38 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s38.pdf)
39 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s39.pdf)
40 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s40.pdf)

41 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s41.pdf)
42 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s42.pdf)
43 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s43.pdf)
44 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s44.pdf)
45 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s45.pdf)
46 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s46.pdf)
47 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s47.pdf)
48 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s48.pdf)
49 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s49.pdf)
50 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s50.pdf)

51 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s51.pdf)
52 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s52.pdf)
53 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s53.pdf)
54 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s54.pdf)
55 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s55.pdf)
56 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s56.pdf)
57 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s57.pdf)
58 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s58.pdf)
59 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s59.pdf)
60 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s60.pdf)

61 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s61.pdf)
62 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s62.pdf)
63 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s63.pdf)
64 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s64.pdf)
65 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s65.pdf)
66 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s66.pdf)
67 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s67.pdf)
68 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s68.pdf)
69 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s69.pdf)
70 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s70.pdf)

71 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s71.pdf)
72 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s72.pdf)
73 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s73.pdf)
74 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s74.pdf)
75 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s75.pdf)
76 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s76.pdf)
77 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s77.pdf)
78 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s78.pdf)
79 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s79.pdf)
80 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s80.pdf)

81 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s81.pdf)
82 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s82.pdf)
83 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s83.pdf)
84 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s84.pdf)
85 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s85.pdf)
86 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s86.pdf)
87 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s87.pdf)
88 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s88.pdf)
89 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s89.pdf)
90 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s90.pdf)


91 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s91.pdf)
92 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s92.pdf)
93 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s93.pdf)
94 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s94.pdf)
95 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s95.pdf)
96 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s96.pdf)
97 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s97.pdf)
98 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s98.pdf)
99 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s99.pdf)
100 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s100.pdf)

101 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s101.pdf)
102 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s102.pdf)
103 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s103.pdf)
104 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s104.pdf)
105 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s105.pdf)
106 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s106.pdf)
107 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s107.pdf)
108 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s108.pdf)
109 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s109.pdf)
110 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s110.pdf)

111 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s111.pdf)
112 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s112.pdf)
113 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s113.pdf)
114 (http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/warsh/s114.pdf)
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: Amira on July 26, 2016, 11:26:52 AM
Assalamu Alaikum :)

The Quran says that its message will be protected.

"Indeed, it is We who have sent down the Quran and We will be its guardian." -15:9

The Quran is a recitation; that means that it is written down the way it sounds. Variant spellings don't make a difference in its recitation. They also don't make a difference in its message. So the message was preserved; however, minor spelling differences may remain.

Currently, we still have the mass-transmitted, standard Hafs Quran. This is the "message" and it remains intact.

Hope this helps x
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: wanderer on July 26, 2016, 11:41:09 AM
So the only difference between the version is spelling?
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: wanderer on July 26, 2016, 11:42:36 AM
I don't speak arabic, so I had trouble understanding the pdf Brother Elijah shared.
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: deleted on July 26, 2016, 12:57:07 PM
Peace. There're all the variations.

And there're variations in pronounciation too. (such as 2:6, 2:9, 2:10, 2:13, 2:14, 2:20, 2:28, 2:33, 2:46, 2:54, 2:62, 2:67, 2:73, 2:76, 2:78, 2:83, 2:85, 2:90, 2:91, 2:93, 2:96, 2:103, 2:111, 2:114, 2:129, 2:139, 2:140, 2:143, 2:151, 2:163, 2:172, 2:174, 2:177, 2:180, 2:184, 2:195, 2:200, 2:203, 2:214, 2:217, 2:220, 2:221, 2:223, 2:224, 2:229, 2:232, 2:233, 2:236, 2:237, 2:242, 2:243, 2:246, 2:247, 2:248, 2:262, 2:266, 2:274, 2:277, 2:280, 2:282, and 2:284)
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: wanderer on July 26, 2016, 02:32:44 PM
Peace. Are their any other type of variation besides pronunciation?
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: wanderer on July 26, 2016, 02:40:06 PM
Because Joseph's article makes it seems like their are other, more significant differences that may cause a slight change to the message, which is what worried me. In particular, the article mentioned particular changes in chapters nine and ten.
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: good logic on July 26, 2016, 08:16:43 PM
Peace wanderer.

The questions that arise are:

1- which version did GOD originally send?

2- Where is the version written by/during the time of the prophet?

3- Does it matter if few letters/ words differ?

4- What does GOD mean by preserving the "dhikr"?

5-Does GOD stop anyone from adding/taking away from original Qoran when copying  mushafs?

6- How are we going to check/investigate/confirm what the original Qoran was/is still is?

I believe,according to my study, that  GOD has given the answer in Qoran.
Qoran is preserved in "a master tablet" .
GOD has "counted the number of everything".
GOD has locked His words mathematically so we can clearly differentiate between "What GOD has revealed" and what" humans add/take away/write"...
There is/has ever been only one "mushaf"
This is my view.
Let us see how the conversation will develop / stop ...
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: deleted on July 26, 2016, 08:32:21 PM
Peace. I think also "from these varaitions, is there ever a variation in command from our Lord?".
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: wanderer on July 26, 2016, 11:48:11 PM
Dear Good Logic
I'm sorry, I don't understand what you are saying. All I want to know is, are there are differences between Hafs and Warsh that may alter the way the Quran is perceived/read/interpreted, even slightly.
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: deleted on July 27, 2016, 01:09:52 AM
There're.
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: good logic on July 27, 2016, 01:11:39 AM
Peace wanderer.
In short, for the sincere in heart, GOD will guide. It does not matter what difference there is between the mushafs.

Those who are also sincerely following the bible to find out the truth  will also be guided for their sincerity.

In fact if anyone, no matter  what race , creed or religion,seeks the Creator sincerely wanting to know the truth,there are no problems.

So in short,the differences will not matter  because GOD Alone guides.

The truth will always prevail over falsehood in the end. No matter where the starting point is and no matter where the differences are.

Thank you.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: wanderer on July 27, 2016, 01:36:13 AM
I'm sorry, but all I request is an answer to my question which you are skirting around. This is making me very agitated. Please answer my question. Thank you.
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: wanderer on July 27, 2016, 01:41:34 AM
I now see that Brother Elijah did provide an answer. Thank you. So what are the differences and how do they change things? I'm sorry if I seem annoyed, but I am kind of agitated. Lately, I have become extremely obsessed with religion and Big Picture questions which has caused me to become depressed and extremely anxious. This site has helped me somewhat, and I look forward to hearing your response.
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: Hamzeh on July 27, 2016, 03:31:24 AM
Asalamu Alykum Wanderer

The article shared by Truth Seeker I believe has a comforting answer for your inquiry.

Quote
Despite the insignificant differences between the Hafs and Warsh transmissions that we know of today, only the universal recitation of the Quran which is recited today by approximately 95% (Hafs) of the Muslim world can be acceptable from a Quranic perspective.
 
As the Quran's propagation was en masse from the time of the Prophet, it has continued its propagation in the same manner. Therefore, only such a majority recitation as the one recited today in 95% of the Muslim world would be reconcilable with verse 15:9 which confirms God's own protection of the message.
 

That being said, anyone of the past and of today can write their own version of the Scripture by deleting from or adding to it verses. This does not mean that God's did not fullfil His promise of 15:9 that He will surely be it's guarding.

If today there was lets say for example that 55% of the Muslim world recites the hafs version and 45% recites the warsh version then one would start thinking otherwise.

Also brother you might want to take a look at this debate[1]. It's quite long but Insha'Allah you will get some more answers to your inquiry.

Also brother a couple verses we all should keep in mind Insha'Allah  :)

039:018
"Those who listen to the Word (the Quran) and follow the best meaning in it / best of it (Arabic: fayattabi'una ahsanahu) those are the ones whom God has guided and those are the one's endowed with understanding (Arabic: Albabi)
 
039.055
"And follow the best of what is revealed to you from your Lord, before the penalty comes to you suddenly while you do not perceive!”

Salam

[1] "THE SEVEN AHRUF, RECITATIONS (QIRAAT), HAFS
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=840.0
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: wanderer on July 27, 2016, 03:55:01 AM
I simply don't understand how God could let even 5% astray by following a slightly altered edition of the Holy text-- if the Hafs edition is even correct! What if the Warsh edition is the right one?? And still nobody has answered my question as to what ARE the differences in the first place. This forum has been extremely evasive and unhelpful.
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: wanderer on July 27, 2016, 04:41:04 AM
I'm really sorry I just was really upset and got carried y
away right now I am just very agitated that despite me bringing it up again and again NOBODY has answered my main question: WHAT ARE THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE TRANSMISSIONS SPECIFICALLY. Everyone here seems to be dodging my inquiries, which has made me very angry. Please, can you help me?!
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: Hamzeh on July 27, 2016, 05:16:32 AM
Salamu Alykum Wanderer

You are saying you want to know the difference between the two. Did not the first article shared by Truth Seeker provide you with those answers?[1] Please answer that question.

You should of realized that its true that there is a difference in recitation and little differences. Therefore we have to live with that. Now its upon you to take the best of what we think its true. Like I said before just because someone or some people change something that does not mean that God failed in His promise of protecting the Quran.

God did not let any other version prevail over the hafs version which would amount to the one being guarded. Its that simple.

Salam

[1] Seven Readings
http://quransmessage.com/articles/seven%20readings%20FM3.htm
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: wanderer on July 27, 2016, 05:30:19 AM
I want to know what the TYPE of differences are. Are THEY JUST prononciation or spelling. The article seems to say the differences are more important than that. And how do we know that Hafs is correct?? And why would God allow even 5% of believers to become misled with even a slightly different version of the Holy text. PLEASE PROVIDE A RESPONSE TO EACH POINT INDIVIDUALLY INSTEAD OF MOCKING ME!!!!
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: Amira on July 27, 2016, 06:27:44 AM
Sorry, I said earlier that the versions only had differences in spelling. It seems I was mistaken--there are also differences in pronunciation, though minor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qira%27at

This article shows some of the Hafs and Warsh differences. You can scroll down to part 7, where there's a table with some of the different readings between the versions.

The point is that Allah promised to guard the message, but not necessarily every single letter of it. The overall message remains the same.

Please don't get too impatient, I was in the same position once and I understand it can be confusing, but we're trying to help :)
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: deleted on July 27, 2016, 06:34:10 AM
Peace be upon you. I provided you with documentation of ALL of the variations between them.
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: deleted on July 27, 2016, 06:37:41 AM
And you don't even know Arabic, so which translation is the "right translation"?
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: wanderer on July 27, 2016, 06:53:47 AM
A few more questions then: Are there any differences that cause a change in meaning? Even if the Quran only says that the message will be preserved, wouldn't God want to protect every letter of the Holy text? And how do we know that the Hafs transmission is correct, not the Warsh one?? Please respond.
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: Truth Seeker on July 27, 2016, 07:24:43 AM
Salaam Wanderer,

The difference is in spelling and pronunciation.
There is no difference in the message so please be reassured.

If you think of English there are differences in spelling and pronunciation for example colour/color or grey/gray depending if you are American or British.
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: wanderer on July 27, 2016, 07:40:04 AM
What about my other inquiries?
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: deleted on July 27, 2016, 08:12:17 AM
Peace. It isn't at all like pronounciation in English... Such as from 2:85, "وَمَا اللَّهُ بِغَافِلٍ عَمَّا تَعْمَلُونَ",
or "وَمَا اللَّهُ بِغَافِلٍ عَمَّا يَعْمَلُونَ".
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: wanderer on July 27, 2016, 08:36:30 AM
Can you put that in English please:)
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: good logic on July 27, 2016, 07:15:05 PM
Peace wanderer.

More research is always beneficial to satisfy your own curiosity.
Our answers will need to  be checked regardless .

This  is one of my posts in another thread about the same subject:

The Qoran given to the prophet was in one form ,which means all the various transmissions only represent the different readers and do not necessarily represent the Qoran revealed to prophet Muhammed and preserved in Master Tablets at God Almighty.


[Qoran 85:21-22] Indeed, it is a glorious Qoran. In a preserved master tablet.

The predominant reading today, spread by Egyptian Qoran readers, is that of Asim in the transmission of Hafs (d. 190/805). In Morocco, the reading is that of Nafi` in the transmission of Warsh (d. 197/812) and the Moroccan Qorans are written accordingly. In Sudan, Nigeria and Central Africa, the prevailing reading is that of Abu `Amr in the version of al-Duri. The transmissions of Hafs, Warsh, Qalun and Al-Duri are still in print today.

A question that should be asked  before your question can be answered is:

What is the Qoran that was given to the prophet?

Then you can proceed to ask: Did the prophet write the verses as they came to him? 

The following table is meant to educate the Muslims and show them how the Hafs Mus-haf differs from the Warsh Mus-haf and it is a proof that human errors were allowed in the writing and collection of the Quran while preserving the right version (in this case Hafs) that will be supported and confirmed by God's Mathematical Miracle of the Quran. These are only some examples.

The writing of the Quran according to Hafs
 The writing of the Quran according to Warsh
 

surah 5:54 (yartadda)
surah 5:54 (yartadid)

surah 91:15 (wa la yakhaafu)
surah 91:15 (fa la yakhaafu)

surah 3:133 (wasaari'uu)
surah 3:133 (saari'uu)

surah 2:132 (wawassaa)
surah 2:132 (wa'awsaa)

surah 2:140 (taquluna)
surah 2:140 (yaquluna)

surah 2:259 (nunshizuhaa)
surah 2:259 (nunshiruhaa)

surah 3:81 (ataytukum)
surah 3:81 (ataynakum)

surah 2:132 (himu)
surah 2:132 (hiimu)

surah 2:214 (yaquula)
surah 2:214 (yaquulu)


I agree with the scholarly understanding that none of the differences, whether vocal (vowel and diacritical points) or graphic (basic letter), between the transmission of Hafs and the transmission of Warsh has any great effect on the meaning. However, the Mathematical Miracle of the Quran supports ONLY one version, the Hafs transmission which is the most commonly used version of transmission. The Rasm (Orthography) of Hafs follows the pattern of the mathematical structure of the Qoran as well as the numbering of the suras and verses. In reality it shows how the Mathematical miracle of the Qoran is working to confirm the preserved Qoran as promised by God. The original version that came to the prophet is mathematically preserved?

GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: Truth Seeker on July 27, 2016, 07:26:27 PM
Salaam Good Logic,

I think that Wanderer is still trying to grasp the concept so I don't think that by adding misguided mathematical miracles into the mix will help him.
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: wanderer on July 27, 2016, 11:29:15 PM
Can someone just please help me, how do we know Hafs is correct???!!
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: deleted on July 27, 2016, 11:55:42 PM
Peace. Could you elaborate as to what you'd like?
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: wanderer on July 28, 2016, 02:00:31 AM
I've already told you. Stop beating around the bush.
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: deleted on July 28, 2016, 03:07:08 AM
Peace. For what do you think there has to be a "correct", and an "incorrect"? How have you "known" it to be the truth from your Lord hitherto this discussion? It's because of the messages, right? And we've informed you that there isn't a variation in the message (or what you would, and wouldn't do). So again, for what do you think there is a "correct", and an "incorrect"?
Peace out.
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: deleted on July 28, 2016, 03:07:57 AM
e. It's a map, and another map with a variation of a letter here, and a letter there. All the paths on the map without variation.
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: good logic on July 28, 2016, 05:15:43 AM
Peace Truthseeker..

You say, quote:

I think that Wanderer is still trying to grasp the concept so I don't think that by adding misguided mathematical miracles into the mix will help him.

I hope you noticed that I was asking him to research /check  all information for himself.

Now I have a couple of questions for you,if you do not mind:

1- Which mushaf was originally sent through the prophet ?

2-Are you familiar with 46:10?:قُل أَرَءَيتُم إِن كانَ مِن عِندِ اللَّهِ وَكَفَرتُم بِهِ وَشَهِدَ شاهِدٌ مِن بَنى إِسرٰءيلَ عَلىٰ مِثلِهِ فَـٔامَنَ وَاستَكبَرتُم إِنَّ اللَّهَ لا يَهدِى القَومَ الظّٰلِمينَ
Please give me your understanding of this verse, since you say "misguided mathematical miracles"
Is  this verse not saying " Older scripture was similarly composed like Qoran  as witnessed by someone  from Beni Israel"?

Thank you and GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: deleted on July 28, 2016, 05:52:35 AM
Peace. Have you forgotten that the Hafs transmission also includes 9:128, and 9:129?
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: Amira on July 28, 2016, 07:43:57 AM
Assalamu Alaikum Good Logic,

I agree with Truth Seeker--Wanderer is confused enough as it is, and he/she doesn't need to be confused further by your alleged mathematical miracle. I think it's in everyone's best interests to leave the "19 code" out of this and instead focus on the Hafs and Warsh transmissions. This is just a kind request :)

To Wanderer: As Brother Joseph stated in this article, the Quran says that it was revealed and written down with "witnesses" and "honorable scribes." The need for witnesses seems to suggest that the transmission of the Quran which the majority follow, is the right one.

So according to the Quran itself, the Hafs transmission has been pretty much perfectly preserved. All Hafs transmissions are consistent with themselves (there are no differences between copies of the Hafs Quran). So this is the one which, according to the Quran, is preserved and guarded from corruption.

The Warsh version isn't corrupted either--it's just a slightly different reading.

As to your question about why the Hafs Quran is the correct one: The Quran seems to suggest that Hafs is correct, since it's the majority transmission. So if the Quran is to be believed, then the Hafs version is free from errors and is the same one as the recitation revealed to the Prophet. We believe in the Hafs transmission since the Quranic evidence indicates it to be the more accurate one.

I hope this wasn't too confusing :)





Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: Amira on July 28, 2016, 07:44:57 AM
Also this is just what I understand from Brother Joseph's articles and my own deductions--I might be wrong.
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: deleted on July 28, 2016, 08:00:39 AM
 :P
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: wanderer on July 28, 2016, 09:59:41 AM
What about ancient manuscripts of the Quran, are they any differences between them and modern editions??
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: deleted on July 28, 2016, 10:45:34 AM
Yes.
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: wanderer on July 28, 2016, 10:49:36 AM
WHAT??!! HOW??!! I thought that the Quran was preserved. You people told me so!! Why are you LYING to me??!!
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: deleted on July 28, 2016, 10:56:00 AM
Peace brother. If you have time; here's the Tübingen manuscript (http://idb.ub.uni-tuebingen.de/diglit/MaVI165) (from between ~645, and 675)
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: wanderer on July 28, 2016, 11:00:40 AM
Can you please just tell me the differences and help me. I'm sorry for getting upset but I am really panicky and agitated right now I really need some help I'm having a lot of trouble at this point in my life and I feel very scared.
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: deleted on July 28, 2016, 11:20:34 AM
Peace be upon you brother. :)

I'll do a comparison if our Lord wills. It'll take time though.
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: wanderer on July 28, 2016, 11:36:00 AM
But I thought that all Hafs copies were the same?? Please help me here I am getting extremely depressed
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: deleted on July 28, 2016, 11:55:17 AM
Peace. It would be pre-"Hafs", wouldn't it? Hafs is stated to have been from 709, to 796.
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: wanderer on July 28, 2016, 11:59:46 AM
So how many copies of the Quran are floating around?? With different messages, verses,  etc. How do we know which one is the right one. What are the changes??? Everything I know has been turned around. Can anyone get Joseph Islam to help me with this?
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: deleted on July 28, 2016, 12:37:05 PM
Peace. I'll state again; how have you "known" it to be the truth from your Lord hitherto this discussion?
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: wanderer on July 28, 2016, 12:44:59 PM
Are you telling me to abandon the Quran??? I knew you were untrustworthy and trying to lead me off the right path!! Someone else try to help me please!!!
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: Hassan3000 on July 28, 2016, 02:29:14 PM
Peace be upon you :)

First of all I would like to remind everyone and myself that this discussion is to please God and understand his book more, and so we should have patience and ask our Lord to increase us in knowledge.

As of what I understand, if God would have said He would protect the words of the Quran, but the meaning could have changed over time. So there would only be one Quran, but we would not have known the meanings of the words that the people at the time of Prophet Muhammad would be familiar with.

But God simply promised to protect its meaning, so we have many classical arabic lexicons that help us understand what each word meant at that time. The reason that God did not promise to protect both the words and meaning, is based on His wisdom that I don't know why, and there is much wisdom behind that which can't be understood.

And also the word differences do not have an big impact on the overall message, as the words are only having differences in spelling, as no word or verse is added to create a new law or story, thus also proving the fact that God fulfilled the promise of guarding its meaning and message.

Hope that answers the question :), sorry if I made any mistake, and if I did please tell me :)
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: wanderer on July 28, 2016, 02:45:43 PM
So the words in the Hafs Quran aren't the original words of revelation and they have been changed???????? Honestly,  at this point I don't know what anything means anymore. I am dead inside. I know already that I am destined to Hell and that Allah despises me as one of the disbelievers and that my existence is utterly worthless but I still want an answer
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: wanderer on July 28, 2016, 02:47:46 PM
What is the point of continuing tolive as a disbelievers anyway....
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: Hassan3000 on July 28, 2016, 03:08:10 PM
Peace be upon you :)

I never said the words are different, I just mean there could be different spelling differences that don't have an overall impact on the message of the Quran. If a muslim only reads the Hafs version, and another muslim reads only the Warsh version, will you ever see a difference in their practices? No major sects are created from the variations of the Quran due to its very minor differences.

And please don't say like that :), just because you don't understand this, and your trying to find answers doesn't make you a disbeliever and despised by God? Despised by the most loving and merciful?

And again maybe I am wrong as I am not very educated on this subject, but to what I know, yes there is differences, but firstly the do not bring anything new, as in a new law or of that sort, and again God already fulfilled the promise to protect its meaning.

Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: Joseph Islam on July 28, 2016, 04:49:48 PM
What is the point of continuing tolive as a disbelievers anyway....

Dear Wanderer,

As-salamu alaykum

My humble advice to you would be to really calm down, take a step back and allow yourself to slowly re-learn. No one can help you, if you are not first prepared to help yourself and be respectful to others.

I have come to learn that some of your posts / comments were so crude / rude, that they had to be removed from this thread. I have now sighted the comments thanks to the moderators. I noted that some were even aimed at me which others have found offensive. I would respectfully urge / like to ask you to please, please, calm down. I or anyone else can only help you better in a calm, considered state. Please.

Please kindly remember that you are not the only one that has or is going through a process of relearning, with the shock when they have found things are out of kilter from their old convictions / beliefs. Even mighty prophets have had doubts and have endured mental anguish in the process whilst their Lord slowly showed them a clearer path. With respect, you are not the first and arguably, will not be the last.

Quran, Scriptures aside, I assume you believe in some sort of intelligent designer, so please reach out to it, call it 'Rab', God or any beautiful name and please say:

"My Lord!, Increase me in knowledge" (20:114)

"Perhaps that my Lord will guide me to a nearer way than this to the right way" (18:24)
"...asa an yahdiya rabbi li-aqraba min hadha rashadan"

Now, I have written this note quickly and I will try to afford some time slowly to assist you in any way I can, despite me having written extensively on this topic. But you have to be patient with me (because of my immense time constraints) and more importantly, patient with yourself.

How can anyone expect God to provide one with truth (or through others like the wonderful members of this forum who have already tried to assist you) when one almost impatiently demands it from God? Please, give it time and you will see the woods from the trees and be able to discern, God willing. Allow God to teach you, please don’t be impatient with Him.

I will come back to this thread as soon as I have a chance, but I will have hoped that by then your demeanour will have changed.

With hope ...

Regards,
Joseph
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: wanderer on July 28, 2016, 11:35:46 PM
Thank you for responding to my posts. I am deeply regretful of any hurt I may have caused with my comments. It is just that for the last couple of months I have been in an extremely nervous and depressed state. I come from a Secular Muslim family in America, and I used to be like every other American child (I'm currently 14) Play games, have friends, watch movies, etc. I didn't really know or care much about Islam. Over the last year, however, I started to grow more and more interested in religion, and began studying Islam. After seeing all the atrocious things in the Hadith and how poorly compiled it was, I soon became a Quranist, and let me tell you, finding your site was a real lifesaver. It was the only good website I could find that operated from a Quranic perspective.  Lately, I've been reading more and more Quran and thinking about. However, what has happened to me is that it has completely taken over my mind. I can't think of anything else anymore, leaving me in a permanent state of severe anxiety and depression. Sometimes, I have trouble breathing, or just moving around and talking. It's really scary for me and my family, especially since they don't know whats going on.  Right know I'm just trying to get some answers on this Hafs/Warsh situation,  but if anyone can help me, please do.
Peace,
Wanderer
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: deleted on July 29, 2016, 01:26:50 AM
Peace brother.  :) You're just 14, and you seem to have the fear more than a lot of people who have claimed to be in submission to the god for 30, 40, 50 years. The fear is good. God tells us a lot about the people that fear Him, essentially that if you fear him He'll be by your side, and'll guide you to a path in which He'll be pleased with you, and you with Him. I'm unsure, but I don't think it should make you depressed, or too anxious that you can't do things anymore, but I haven't quite figured out myself how to handle it either. :) You're doing the right thing by approaching these difficult topics head on, it's the only way to get past them, and when you do your connection with your god will increase significantly. You don't want them to pile up, because if they do it might seem impossible to overcome, or just not worth it. As for it completely taking over your mind, that's great, it's the connection with god that matters most, right? Once you've went through the words of your Lord a few times though it'll slow down, and wont be so overwelming, and you'll beable to get back to a lot of your activities, although you probably wont spend nearly as much time on them. Also you'll likely get different things from them, outside of just entertainment. I think it's still important to have that part of your life, where your exposed to society and how it is, to have a balance of mind, so that you don't become delusional, and so that you can see how much god has truly given you, and how much you should be grateful.

The variations between Hafs and Warsh are fairly insignificant, they usually just cause pronounciation changes, and hence change who it was talking about, changing meanings like "dont you know God knows whats in the hearts of people" to "don't they know God knows what's in the hearts of people",  although I do think (I seek forgiveness if I incorrect about this) there are a few where the word is entirely different, though a synonym of the word, like say "he pardoned her" instead of "he forgived her". I don't think it is ever more significant than that with these two variations. These variations can also be attributed to scribal errors. I know I make mistakes constantly when trying to copy things word for word. As for why our god allowed this to happen? We can only speculate, but I think you can take it as a trial of the heart. And you'll have a lot of these throughout you life. I knew nothing about god, or this book I now hold dear to my heart until less than two years ago, and I assure you it feels like every month I hit a point where I am like "well that's it, how can I get past this" then within a short time God reassures my heart and it becomes stronger and stronger.

Now besides the Hafs and Warsh transmissions, there are many variations out there — I'm unsure if anyone really uses them though — that do have more significant variations, entire sentences, or paragraphs changed, and the likes of that. However noone really deems them significant, and they aren't really accessible in English because noone cares to even translate them. It would be difficult to obtain them even in Arab countries. Therefore I don't think those hold much credibility. Anyone can copy out a book and write in little additions, which is likely what happened with those.

As for the anchient manuscripts, a lot I think have again these small variations that you see between Hafs and Warsh, however some seem to be very close to, if not exactly the same as those we have today. I didn't mean to frighten you yesterday with what I said, I just meant to provide you with correct answers. And it is the truth that you can find many manuscripts that include variations. If your interested, last night I went through some of the Tübingen manuscript, it is one of the oldest, and very close to Muhammads time, it might even have been written by a companion of Muhammad, and I have yet to find any issues. It doesn't have taskeel though, so really I don't expect to see very many, if any. I'll update you again on that once I am finished the comparison. As I stated though, I am fairly new to all of this myself. I'm not very good with Arabic, so it'll take a little while to get through it.

And I'm sorry if I seemed like I was beating around any bushes, when I asked you to elaborate I just wasn't sure what you wanted, and I felt like people were repeating themselves, so I wanted you to be more specific. I truly would like to help you get through this. If it's a list of variations you need, translated to English, then I'll do my best to provide it to you, god willing, but it'll take a while, likely at least a few months. And I'm sorry for my question of what made you know the book is from the god, I didn't realise you were so young, or new to this all, and I just wanted to push you to realise that the reasons you believe in it, or at least some of them haven't changed. As you learn more you'll have more and more reasons that you know it to be from god, and things like the variations between Hafs and Warsh won't but be like a flick on the arm.

If I can help you further with anything, I'll try my best.

Peace be upon you brother.  :) :) :)

PS. If you can learn Arabic, it'll open a lot of doors for you, even if it's just how to read and write the Arabic script. Once you can read it you'll pick up a lot just from here and there in your studies.
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: wanderer on July 29, 2016, 02:36:03 AM
Hi Elijah
Thank you for your kind words. When I say that I am feeling like it is taking over my mind, I don't mean that I'm getting closer to God, just that I'm becoming obsessed with all these details and it's clouding my mind with all these terrible thoughts, making me anxious and depressed.  It's definitely not good. I am actually taking courses in Arabic right now, although I am terrible at languages. I just wish I could be confident and firm in myself and my faith instead of scared and weak. Sometimes, I feel as if I'm just one of the hypocrites that they talk about in the Quran. As for the Hafs/Warsh issue, my problem is, how do we know our version that we read and quote today is the correct one and all the others are the aberrations?? Please respond and thanks again
Wanderer
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: good logic on July 29, 2016, 06:51:51 AM
Peace wanderer.

First congratulation on your perseverance to find out about the deen at such a young age.

You have a head start . May  the Lord bless you and guide you.

You say you have been reading Qoran more and more. Well, Qoran is fully detailed ,it has all the answers one seeks about the deen.

Take your time, trust in the Lord and keep reading Qoran. You will get your answers, just be patient, GOD is Merciful and keeps His promise to help and support the believers.

Also, your brothers and sisters here care about those who seek the Lord, they will try to help and look after you.

GOD bless you.
Peace
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: Amira on July 29, 2016, 07:01:42 AM
Wanderer, I didn't realize you were 14. I was as agitated as you earlier and I understand how overwhelming it is. I was obsessed with this as well at one point, but I promise it gets better and afterward you'll be like, "Why was I so upset earlier?!" You seem smart, just worried, and I promise you'll get answers.

 I'm actually about the same age as you (although I sound older in most of my posts, since I deliberately copy Joseph Islam's style of writing). Also American. Are you a brother or sister? You sounded a bit like a sister in an earlier thread.

You seem to have calmed down now, which is good, but this thread has gotten me very confused about the whole issue.

I don't know much Arabic, which makes studying Quran difficult. I think we should all learn Arabic so we can do our own research.

Are you ok now?


Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: wanderer on July 29, 2016, 08:06:05 AM
Yes thank you brother Hamzeh and sister Amira, I am feeling better now. In response to your inquiries, sister Amira, I am a man. Also, another problem I have in my studies is that, like I said before, my family is non-practicing (although my mother has gotten a bit more religious lately) so I feel very alone in trying to interpret the scripture. (Though this forum has helped). Do you guys know any other good, helpful websites that work from a Quranist perspective?
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: ahmad on July 29, 2016, 08:21:04 AM
Dear Wanderer,

I just wanted to tell you that you are not alone in what you are going through. All Truth seekers have gone through much suffering in order to reach a path that is closer to the truth. When one leaves his old beliefs to search for the truth. One becomes very fragile. But don't worry, with time you become less fragile as you get firmly grounded in Truth. Patience is key, even the prophet did not receive the Quran at once. And many verses in the Quran tell the prophet to not be in doubt from what has been revealed.

[3:60]
This is the truth from your Lord, so do not be in doubt.

Its normal to be in doubt, to be confused. We all go through these phases. And don't say that you are a disbeliever or a hypocrite. How can you say that when God has guided you to learn more about islam from this website. Trust me you have been guided to a path that is closer to the truth than many others. The insecurity you feel should be a driving force that will make you learn more. And maybe one day God may use you to guide others with the knowledge he will give you.


Good luck  :)
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: Amira on July 29, 2016, 09:23:45 AM
Hi Wanderer,

You asked about websites that work from a Quranist (or Quran-centric) perspective. The first thing I'd say is that you should stay away from Submission.org et al. These sites almost seem legitimate at first, but they twist around Quranic translation and can seriously confuse you if you don't know Arabic.

This is the best website out there in my opinion. The articles are very unbiased and moderate. But these ones are good too:

http://misconceptions-about-islam.com/

http://www.quranists.net/

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/quranalyzeit/

And you've also probably seen Joseph Islam's Facebook page.

I've been doing research for a while, and there are actually Quranist conventions in the UK and Quranist mosques in several cities. It's not as uncommon as it seems.

Hope this helps :)

Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: wanderer on July 29, 2016, 10:17:33 AM
Thanks Amira. I've already seen the 'misconceptions' page you recommended and liked it, despite its brevity, and I've also seen Ro Wassem's blog, though I dislike it due to his focus on "progressive Islam". I am very skeptical of "progressive Islam", which I see as an attempt to appease the West and other liberal ideologies. What I love most about this site is how  it doesn't try to force an ideology onto the Quran, but just let's the scripture speak for itself. Sadly, as I feared there doesn't seem to be any like it. Nevertheless,  thanks for your help.
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: Student on July 29, 2016, 10:35:44 AM
Salaam,
Wanderer,

Quote
As for the Hafs/Warsh issue, my problem is, how do we know our version that we read and quote today is the correct one and all the others are the aberrations?? Please respond and thanks again
Let me assure you both Hafs and Warsh are correct and they have no bearing on the alteration in the meaning of the Quran, which is most important thing to consider and note. I firmly believe Quran has multi-faceted Miracles embedded in it and Mathematical numbers and codes is definitely no exception. Here's why I say this confidently:

http://kaheel7.com/Book/Marvels_BookSeven.pdf (http://kaheel7.com/Book/Marvels_BookSeven.pdf)  (My favorite)

But there are many on this site's main page:

http://kaheel7.com/eng/index.php/numeric-miracle (http://kaheel7.com/eng/index.php/numeric-miracle)

And this one too:

https://qurancode.codeplex.com/documentation (https://qurancode.codeplex.com/documentation)

And rest assured, none of them entertain 19 number miracle to the compromise and sacrifice verse 128 and 129 of surah 9. The first link in fact debunk thoroughly the number 19 as base code of the Quran theory proposed by Rashad Khalifa.

Make abundant Dhikrullah (whatever mode/method you know, the best however is La ilaha ilallah) and your heart will be at rest as promised by Allah swt in the Quran.

Take care,
Student
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: Amira on July 29, 2016, 11:56:09 AM
Hi Wanderer, what is it that you particularly dislike about "progressive Islam?" I agree that a lot of it is misguided, but not all. This site could be considered "progressive Islam" too--it all depends on the what you mean by progressive.

Anyway, going back to the Hafs and Warsh question, I look forward to Joseph Islam's input. I hope he can sort this out.  :)
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: Joseph Islam on July 30, 2016, 06:56:24 PM
Dear Wanderer,

As-salamu alaykum

So you are one of the younger readers of this forum (not the youngest I believe). We also have forum readers and contributors who are well into their 90s, maybe even more. So quite a good spread of age group. 

You appear to be gifted with adept writing skills; you also enquire about very adult themes such as earthly spouses, intimacy related questions, hurs and others, hence I can see why you can be perceived as older by other readers.

Now, there has been a lot said in this thread and it isn't quite clear what has been answered to your satisfaction and what hasn't. What I would like you to do (please) is to give me clear questions that you would like me (only me on this occasion) to answer. Number them 1,2,3 etc. and I will address your query 1 by 1, God willing.

I look forward to hearing from you and please continue to patient with any delays in my response.

You may also find interesting a thread that I shared on Facebook today.

https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/777753862361743

PS: Thanks to all those kind souls that have contributed to this thread.

Regards,
Joseph
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: wanderer on July 30, 2016, 08:19:37 PM
Thank you for your response, Joseph! Here are my questions:
1.) What are the differences between ancient and modern copies of the Quran?
2.) How did Hafs and Warsh originate and why, if it is deemed to be 'incorrect' by the vast majority of Muslims, does Warsh still exist?
And most importantly-
3.)How do we know that the current, mass transmitted Quran is, word-by-word, the scripture that was sent down to the Prophet centuries ago?
Thanks again and I look forward to hearing your response.
wanderer
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: Joseph Islam on July 30, 2016, 10:15:20 PM
Dear Wanderer,

As-salamu alaykum

Please see my responses to your questions in red italics

1. What are the differences between ancient and modern copies of the Quran?

First of all, the Quran was foremost a 'recitation / reading' (revealed as an inspiration). It was then transcribed by scribes. The Quran was not like the tablets revealed to Prophet Moses, inscribed by God on a piece of rock or a codex / book sent down by God on a mountain.

The written codices were secondary and supported the mass reading and not the other way around.

To answer your question simply, there are two main readings which are supported by respective codices / manuscripts. In the main, Hafs copies are consistent within themselves and Warsh copies consistent within themselves. This is arguably the same for ancient copies as it is for modern copies. I use the word 'main' lightly as one copy (Hafs) is actually the main reading, whilst the other, isolated.

To see in depth the differences between Hafs and Warsh so that you have some idea of the differences supported by a scholarly assessment, please kindly see a scholarly piece of work [1] below which I find very cogent.

In summary, Hafs is recited by the majority of the Muslim world (95%) and Warsh about 3%. These are not 'different Qurans' in the sense that one Quran does not say for example, Prophet Joseph was thrown in a well, whilst the other says he was left on the ground to escape. To compare the differences, please refer to the works already cited / shared.

2. How did Hafs and Warsh originate and why, if it is deemed to be 'incorrect' by the vast majority of Muslims, does Warsh still exist?

When we say incorrect, we must only speak about what some would argue are the minor aberrations. The rest of the Quran which is absolutely identical is obviously not 'incorrect'.

With any large reading and it being spread en masse across the globe as it was before voice capture, printing presses or photographic capture, there is always a possibility that one isolated pronunciation may become peddled or a particular codex is transcribed in a particular way without diacritical marks and a small group misreads it. As I trust that you will appreciate, this does not now mean that in order to 'protect' the message, God is expected to wipe out the group that have misread something or a bolt of lightening strikes an isolated community that have a slightly aberrant codex with a view to annihilate them. What it arguably simply means is that the main recitation is still protected in numbers.

Similarly, this does not mean suddenly, that the main message / reading is compromised. It just means someone is reading it differently. For example, just because a group of people decide to remove two verses from the Quran (as they do today like the submitters), or a group of people misread certain passages of the Quran and spread a new codex / manuscript, does that now mean that the entire Muslim world where the main recitation is protected is compromised?

Kindly remember, we are not talking about 51% Hafs and 49% Warsh. We are talking about 95% Hafs and 3% Warsh (other 2% even more isolated).  So yes, Warsh readings do exist today but only in certain communities / parts of the world. However, their Quran isn't fundamentally different from Hafs. Please kindly try to understand the differences first.

3. How do we know that the current, mass transmitted Quran is, word-by-word, the scripture that was sent down to the Prophet centuries ago?

I have repeatedly argued, even with Bassam Zawadi why only the mass reading can be supported. I have spent pages and pages arguing this. Please kindly see [2] below.

The prophet would have not revealed two recitations. The Quran also supports one reading. The Quran was also transmitted en masse. It was transcribed immediately by scribes and copies would have arguably been disseminated. Copies of copies would have resulted as would have learning through a strong oral tradition which even exists today (through hafiz / hafizas). This would have arguably, stabilised the dissemination of the content of the Quran as revealed to the Prophet.

Therefore, what reading are you likely to support even if one does not accept verse 15:9 and God's testimony to protect His message? A transmission which has had the support of the majority in this case or minority readings? Please think about this.

Finally, I feel it is always useful to remember, that one does / should not believe in the veracity of the Quran based on 'the authenticity' of the script or recitation. A perfect Quran only shows that an Arabian man who called himself a prophet shared these words in the name of a God somewhere in the Arabian peninsula. That means nothing. He could still be a false prophet. It is the cogency of the arguments contained in what he presents which should ultimately convince one of its origins, not the 'alleged authenticity' of the manuscript or recitation itself.

What I personally find more disconcerting is not the two different readings (95% read vs 3%), but rather, how one group of people can reject Salaat as timed prayers or reject the need for fasting playing semantic gymnastics and linguistic microsurgery, whilst the other accepts this based on the same Quran! Now that is a change in the message.

I hope this helps, God willing
Joseph


REFERENCES:

[1] BROCKETT. Adrian Alan, Studies in Two Transmissions of the Qur'an, University of St. Andrews, Department of Arabic Studies. PhD Thesis 1984
https://www.scribd.com/doc/21972348/Studies-in-Two-Transmissions-of-the-Qur-an-by-Adrian-Alan-Brockett
[2] Discussion with Bassam Zawadi on Hafs, Warsh and Transmission
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=840

Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: wanderer on July 31, 2016, 09:33:43 AM
Sorry for the late response, but thank you for your incredibly informative post!! You really helped clear up some misconceptions that I had!! I'm going to stop responding in this particular discussion now, but I look forward to discussing other issues on this forum with all of you. Thank you all!!!
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: ilker on September 11, 2016, 02:41:32 PM
Salam

I know it's been quite long since the last post but i'd like to hear what you think about the difference in 2:125.

Quoting from free-minds.org:

2:125 in Hafs is وَاتَّخِذوْا “WatakhIzu” (You shall take) / In Warsh it is وَاتَّخَذوْا “WatakhAzu” (They have taken/made).

In 2:125 the subject being addressed is that of “Maqam Ibrahim”. One version gives a command/order, while the other states a historical fact/observation.


what do you think ? It's really confusing.
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: wanderer on September 11, 2016, 02:48:40 PM
Salam Brother ilker-
Firstly, my translation says simply "And take", not "You shall take". Also, I don't see how "they have taken" would make logical sense in this context at all.
Regards
wanderer
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: deleted on September 11, 2016, 10:10:23 PM
Peace. You might also translate as "and take you", or "and you're to take". Does it change what it means?
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: Amira on September 13, 2016, 12:32:21 PM
Hi, just a note on Hafs and Warsh:

http://www.free-minds.org/sites/default/files/WhichQuran.pdf

This is a very long document, but it states at the end that Warsh is (allegedly) more historically accurate. I'm not sure about this claim, because it's based on "calculations" that were conducted on both transmissions. Neither transmission was found to be "historically accurate."

This is probably not the most reliable study, but I'm just putting it out there. It does have a list of variations between the two versions.
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: wanderer on September 13, 2016, 12:57:42 PM
Thank you Sister Amira. However, I would advice against using any material sourced from free-minds.com, or any of its Rashad Khalifa-based affiliates. Their "scholarship" cannot be trusted and is usually intended to "prove" their silly numerology, as can be clearly evidenced by the pdf you shared.
Regards
wanderer
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: Duster on September 13, 2016, 06:28:04 PM
Thank you Sister Amira. However, I would advice against using any material sourced from free-minds.com, or any of its Rashad Khalifa-based affiliates. Their "scholarship" cannot be trusted and is usually intended to "prove" their silly numerology, as can be clearly evidenced by the pdf you shared.
Regards
wanderer

Shalom / peace Wanderer - I agree with you on this point. I certainly feel this way too ......>>>>
Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: Wakas on September 14, 2016, 06:20:56 AM
peace wanderer, duster,

In case you are unaware free-minds.org does not promote numerology / code 19 nor rashad khalifa. Sure it may have some articles discussing these subjects, but also ones critiquing, including many posts on the forum etc.

That pdf document mentions the maths in only several of the 27 pages.

Title: Re: What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??
Post by: Amira on September 14, 2016, 08:58:46 AM
I don't think the entire website is based on Rashad Khalifa and his numerology, but a large part of that document definitely was. Either way, the conclusions it came to were interesting.