QM Forum

The Quran => General Discussions => Topic started by: Student on August 25, 2016, 01:51:04 PM

Title: Quran Revelation Order
Post by: Student on August 25, 2016, 01:51:04 PM
Salaam,

I would like to know if Joseph sir mentioned or discussed Quran Revelation Order, anywhere as I failed in my search to find one and how accurate/reliable this chronology order information where some sites claim it with confident such as: http://www.askquran.com/quran.html (http://www.askquran.com/quran.html)

Many people I saw based their opinion from this order information so was just wondering about this aspect of the Quran.

Thanks,
Student
Title: Re: Quran Revelation Order
Post by: Zack on August 29, 2016, 10:11:50 AM
Salaam,

I would like to know if Joseph sir mentioned or discussed Quran Revelation Order, anywhere as I failed in my search to find one and how accurate/reliable this chronology order information where some sites claim it with confident such as: http://www.askquran.com/quran.html (http://www.askquran.com/quran.html)

Many people I saw based their opinion from this order information so was just wondering about this aspect of the Quran.

Thanks,
Student

Hello Student,

Your question brings up a very good point. Relating to Chronology of the Quran:

a) From what I have studied, the chronology of the Qur'an provided by Muslim tradition today has no basis except from the Traditional Stories written 150 years after the Qur'an, therefore is highly questionable.
b) The division of "Meccan Surah" and "Medina Surah" is a later addition, based on the background given to the verses.
c) The context for each verse, Asbab Al Nuzul, which leads to chronology, was something formalised 400 years after Muhammad.

The Quran text was based on the collection of the transcribed of oral recitations, and does not have any chronology, nor is there anyway to know the chronology.

This is one of the challenges of understanding of the original intended meaning of the Quran. Without a context, it is very dangerous to take a "literalist" approach to much of the instruction, as we do not know the historical context it was referring to.

Wasalam

Zack
Title: Re: Quran Revelation Order
Post by: Hamzeh on August 29, 2016, 02:02:25 PM
Asalamu Alykum Brothers and Sisters

I would like to also add a couple reminders.

First we DO note that the Quran was arranged and compiled in the lifetime of the Prophet[1]. Therefor as a believer I do believe that the Quran as we see it today is the same as it was in the time of prophet Muhammad by way of God's protection. We do note that with the imperfections of man there has been some minor publishing errors/differences. Also as humans progressed there seems to be additional vowel dialects added to vowels to help with pronunciation to those of different languages. Otherwise its been protected orally and written in its chronological order.

Secondly we have to keep in mind that Muhammad had been inspired in different ways and in different capacities to do certain roles.

For example Muhammad would have been inspired as a Prophet which that inspiration would possibly have aided him in his authority and duties over all his religious tasks that were prescribed by the Quran, possibly the arrangements, when to revealed or deliver the verses to his people and so on.

Muhammad would also possibly had been inspired at a messenger level. This may or may not been when to deliver the message, but also possibly in his duty as a leader, minister of affairs etc.

Muhammad would also possibly had been inspired at a personal level. Take for example the inspiration people like the mother of Moses received. Compare that with verse 66:3

66:3 And [remember] when the Prophet confided to one of his wives a statement; and when she informed [another] of it and Allah showed it to him, he made known part of it and ignored a part. And when he informed her about it, she said, "Who told you this?" He said, "I was informed by the Knowing, the Acquainted."

Muhammad would also possibly have recognized the differences between all his inspirations.

At the end of course Allah knows best

Salam

[1]Quran Compilation
http://quransmessage.com/articles/the%20compilation%20of%20the%20quran%20FM3.htm
Title: Re: Quran Revelation Order
Post by: Student on August 29, 2016, 03:53:38 PM
Thanks Zack and Jazak Allah khair for your insightful clarification. I know it's next to impossible to apply "reverse engineering" to know this branch of Quranic science which as you noted developed much later.

Br. Hamzeh, my question was not on compilation order and I've Alhumdulillah no doubt in my mind about preservation of the Quranic text but nevertheless I appreciate your help too, thanks!  :)
Title: Re: Quran Revelation Order
Post by: maverick83pk on August 29, 2016, 04:29:03 PM
What i understand from Inputs by Hamzeh, that the chronological order of revelation of quran's verse was different than the compiled order as we see in today's quran, which has been the same back to the time of Prophet Muhammad pbuh and that to arrange the quran in a particular order such as putting Surah Fatiha at start and surah An-Naas at the end, was further inspired to the prophet?! Where is this inspiratoin? in ahadees?

It means Prophet did recieve other kinds of revelations and that the hadithers are right! Does it mean we have to follow ahadees as well now? as they are also revealed to the Prophet pbuh?
Title: Re: Quran Revelation Order
Post by: Hamzeh on August 29, 2016, 04:51:13 PM
Asalamu Alykum Maverick83pk

First of all a simple answer is no, we dont have to follow the hadith.

Second of all brother how can you explain verse 66:3 below.

66:3 And [remember] when the Prophet confided to one of his wives a statement; and when she informed [another] of it and Allah showed it to him, he made known part of it and ignored a part. And when he informed her about it, she said, "Who told you this?" He said, "I was informed by the Knowing, the Acquainted."


Where is the inspiration in the Quran to the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) that God had showed him what happened?

Also how did the prophet know WHICH ORDER to compile the Quran?

By reading the Quran one can arguably realize that it was not revealed in the order it was compiled.

Salam
Title: Re: Quran Revelation Order
Post by: Hamzeh on August 29, 2016, 05:33:42 PM
Salam Maverick83pk

Couple more points I would like to make so I don't confuse you or anyone else is that, Prophets are given duties and licenses to carry out their mission. This mission remains strictly for them. There is possibly an inspiration that is regulated just for the prophets duties. However this does not mean they have to share it or pass it on. The inspiration would be part of their job in their ministry as a prophet.

What is a key point is that the only thing they are responsible for is to deliver the message that was given to them. After that God will judge by the message that was left to the people.

42:48 If then they run away, We have not sent thee as a guard over them. Thy duty is but to convey (the Message). And truly, when We give man a taste of a Mercy from Ourselves, he doth exult thereat, but when some ill happens to him, on account of the deeds which his hands have sent forth, truly then is man ungrateful!

3:20part ...If they do, they are in right guidance, but if they turn back, Thy duty is to convey the Message; and in Allah's sight are (all) His servants.

24:54 Say: "Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).


The prophet had other duties that the other people did not have. The prophet's duties was a weighty one. Possibly of memorization, revealing the verses at the proper times, managing affairs, leadership, government, compilation of the Quran, extra prayers,etc.


73:5 Indeed, We will cast upon you a heavy/weighty Word

Masha'Allah God has created prophet Muhammad capable of a weighty mission Subhan Allah. Shows how God can make a man do whatever He wills.

68:4 And indeed, you are of a great moral character.


A couple related articles by brother Joseph are below

Insha'Allah that helps

Salam

[1] WAS THE PROPHET OF GOD AKIN TO A POSTMAN WHO SIMPLY DELIVERS A MESSAGE?
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/247680292035772
[2] UNDERSTANDING VERSE 42:51 - WHO CAN RECEIVE 'WAHI'?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/wahi%20FM3.htm
[3] WERE ALL THE PROPHET'S UTTERANCES A 'WAHI' FROM GOD? (DIVINELY INSPIRED)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/prophetic%20utterances%20FM3.htm
[4] Did Prophet Receive Revelations Outside the Quran?
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=97.0

Title: Re: Quran Revelation Order
Post by: maverick83pk on August 29, 2016, 07:42:07 PM
Dear Hamzeh,

Thanks for your inputs, i have read all the links...so it means Prophet did receive clear and almost vivid inspirations outside quran in a personal capacity to help with some task at hand related to administration of state or for some other wisdom / purpose BUT the "scriptural revelation" which was inspired to him was only the verses which are protected in the Quran...right? Maybe when he was alive and if we were under his ministry, we would have been asked to also follow the other inspirations to him...am i understanding correctly?

Now that he is not amongst us, it appears that we are only obligated to follow Quran! Since, God never protected the "other inspirations" as He in His infinite wisdom did not deem them necessary for all times. Whereas, the people who were alive in his period, were also asked to follow the prophet (meaning quran + other inspirations) and if they had any doubt, since, the prophet was alive and amongst them, they could go and ask the prophet about the matter which originated from the "other inspirations" in which they got confused.

Am i getting this all correct? or do i sound more confused?  :-\

P.S: The claim that these "other inspirations" were later compiled in a reliable written form a century later, for which God did not take any responsibility, neither the prophet made any arrangements nor the immediate companions, is fake and bogus. It has no religious binding and nobody authorized hadith compilers to make their collections.
Title: Re: Quran Revelation Order
Post by: Hamzeh on August 30, 2016, 10:31:15 AM
Asalamu Alykum brother maverick83pk

Quote
Thanks for your inputs, i have read all the links...so it means Prophet did receive clear and almost vivid inspirations outside quran in a personal capacity to help with some task at hand related to administration of state or for some other wisdom / purpose BUT the "scriptural revelation" which was inspired to him was only the verses which are protected in the Quran...right? Maybe when he was alive and if we were under his ministry, we would have been asked to also follow the other inspirations to him...am i understanding correctly?

From my humble perspective, I DO NOT believe that the believers who were alive with the prophet were asked to FOLLOW other inspirations than the Quran. As the ONLY inspiration that the prophet was told to reveal to his people was the Quran only. This of course does not mean he did not speak to his people with his own wisdom, but that was NOT HIS DUTY. He however had to use the Quran to conduct his affairs for his time. His situations may have changed from time to time and his ways in his dealings would arguably have to change.

Also Muhammad was a messenger in the midst of the people, he was to be OBEYED by his people in any just matter. This was always the case for any messenger that stepped foot onto the earth. The people who are ALIVE with a messenger are always expected to OBEY a messenger. A messenger would arguably be making serious decisions on behalf of his people, spreading a message in truth and/or acting more superior than even a country's president. However in prophet Muhammad's case, himself also was INSTRUCTED to follow and judge only by the Quran (6:155, 50:45, 10:15).

4:64 (part) We sent not a messenger, but to be obeyed, in accordance with the will of Allah....

There is no other inspiration that the followers had to follow only the Quran. But ultimately because they had a messenger in their midst they were required to obey him in his judgment and decisions and consequently they would also believe in the message that he was imparting.

Quote
Now that he is not amongst us, it appears that we are only obligated to follow Quran! Since, God never protected the "other inspirations" as He in His infinite wisdom did not deem them necessary for all times. Whereas, the people who were alive in his period, were also asked to follow the prophet (meaning quran + other inspirations) and if they had any doubt, since, the prophet was alive and amongst them, they could go and ask the prophet about the matter which originated from the "other inspirations" in which they got confused.

Yes but we could never know if they knew the prophet had other inspirations. They could of been unaware of this. As they understood the prophet was following the Quran. God knows best.

Quote
P.S: The claim that these "other inspirations" were later compiled in a reliable written form a century later, for which God did not take any responsibility, neither the prophet made any arrangements nor the immediate companions, is fake and bogus. It has no religious binding and nobody authorized hadith compilers to make their collections.

I think whatever happened after we don't know. Did the prophet speak to his people how the angel approached him for example? Did he explain what he saw? Did he explain what he saw when God took him from masjid al haram to masjid al aqsa.

At the end God knows best. What remains important however like you said, God did not deem it necessary to explained anything else.

Salam
Title: Re: Quran Revelation Order
Post by: maverick83pk on August 30, 2016, 07:11:30 PM
Dear Hamzeh,

Jazak Allah Khair :)
Title: Re: Quran Revelation Order
Post by: Zack on August 31, 2016, 01:26:57 AM

From my humble perspective, I DO NOT believe that the believers who were alive with the prophet were asked to FOLLOW other inspirations than the Quran. As the ONLY inspiration that the prophet was told to reveal to his people was the Quran only.

Also Muhammad was a messenger in the midst of the people, he was to be OBEYED by his people in any just matter. This was always the case for any messenger that stepped foot onto the earth. The people who are ALIVE with a messenger are always expected to OBEY a messenger. A messenger would arguably be making serious decisions on behalf of his people, spreading a message in truth and/or acting more superior than even a country's president. However in prophet Muhammad's case, himself also was INSTRUCTED to follow and judge only by the Quran (6:155, 50:45, 10:15).

There is no other inspiration that the followers had to follow only the Quran. But ultimately because they had a messenger in their midst they were required to obey him in his judgment and decisions and consequently they would also believe in the message that he was imparting.


Hello all,

I thought I would throw something into this discussion, which may be a bit controversial, but something I feel has validity, based on the Qur'an and history around the time of the Qur'an. I note above, and in other discussions:

a)   The repeated reference to Muhammad as a Prophet, which I believe was NOT a part of the way Muhammad was referred to in his lifetime.

It seems fairly clear that the message during Muhammad’s lifetime and the decades following was more “God-focussed” with far less focus upon Muhammad, as compared to later tradition. The original confession did not seem to have reference to Muhammad. References to Muhammad, both in the Qur’an and in literature increased over time. Being referred to regularly as a Prophet also a later development during the Umayyad Dynasty.

b)   I doubt there was such a clear distinction between the Quran revelation and Muhammad’s own inspiration. In explaining…

If we read the Qur’an, much is referring to contemporary events of Muhammad's time. This is to be understood, as the situation demanded simple instructions for Arab warriors, in particular to unite them in a code of conduct as they journeyed across Arabia in their battles.

The statement “I DO NOT believe that the believers who were alive with the prophet were asked to FOLLOW other inspirations than the Quran.”

The previous Books were viewed as inspired; inspiration was not limited to the Qur’an. Beyond that, the differentiating of inspired instruction and non-inspired instruction may not have been so straightforward.

Wasalam
Zack

Title: Re: Quran Revelation Order
Post by: deleted on August 31, 2016, 01:35:22 AM
Peace. Does, or doesn't our book state to follow the books revealed to the former peoples?
Title: Re: Quran Revelation Order
Post by: Zack on August 31, 2016, 11:35:29 AM
Peace. Does, or doesn't our book state to follow the books revealed to the former peoples?

The Qur'an is in unity and authenticates the Previous Books, which were not intended to be the ownership of one particular people or religious group. The following verses are a sample that would help confirm this...

Surah 3: 3,4,81,50,48
Surah 2: 41,89,91,97.101
Surah 5: 46
Surah 35:31
Surah 10: 37
Surah 12: 111
Surah 46:12,30

There is a clear and repeated theme of an intended unity amongst the Holy Books from the Qur'an, not just with 1 verse, but repeated throughout as shown above. There is no sense of "Replacement Theology", that is Muhammad replaced the previous prophets, The Qur'an replaces the Bible, Islam replaces Christianity etc etc. This doctrine is imitating the Roman Church, who promoted this doctrine, saying that their structure and truth had replaced the previous.

As a book "Authenticating", the Qur'an promotes a view of integrating the message of the Holy Books. The above clearly promotes that.
Title: Re: Quran Revelation Order
Post by: Wakas on September 01, 2016, 03:52:29 AM
peace Student, all,

You may be interested to know that there are independent studies trying to determine the chronological order of revelation of Al Quran using Al Quran itself, e.g.

For an excellent start, please see part 2 of Neal Robinson's book 'Discovering Quran' available here:
http://www.islam-and-muslims.com/islamic-books-online.html
Title: Re: Quran Revelation Order
Post by: Amira on September 01, 2016, 12:13:55 PM
That link has so much information, did you compile the list yourself? You could provide that link on Free-Minds and the Misconceptions website. The studies people have done on Quranic structure are amazing.
Title: Re: Quran Revelation Order
Post by: Student on September 01, 2016, 01:07:14 PM
Subhan Allah! :D - after Zack's 1st response to my inquiry the thread got derailed and suddenly you brought the engine back on track  ;D for that Jazak Allah Khair brother Wakas, I'm completely overwhelmed with the list (you're so right sister Amira) and it will inshallah benefit me in many ways - thank you so very much!

Brother Zack your last response with Quran vs Previous scriptures was indeed awesome and you may add to the list Sir Joseph's post on his FB with the title "The TWO GUIDES - The Quran and the Bible " is perfect fit: https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/300599863410481 (https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/300599863410481)

Thank you all!
Title: Re: Quran Revelation Order
Post by: deleted on September 02, 2016, 07:02:43 AM
He refers to "Geographia by Claudius Ptolemaeus" as a pre-Muhammad description of Arabia, and the towns in Arabia,  however there're no manuscripts of "Geographia" from a time pre-Muhammad..  :o
Title: Re: Quran Revelation Order
Post by: Joseph Islam on September 03, 2016, 05:38:39 PM
Dear All,

A very good thread Masha’Allah.

Please kindly allow me to share a general view which some may find of interest.

Given my own humble, yet ardent studies in this area and my work with the Quran over numerous years and a great portion of my life, I do not subscribe to the wholesale acceptance of two thoughts:


Both, in my humble view, are problematic assertions and not supported by the Quran itself.

This presents us with a ‘false dilemma – false dichotomy’ which is a well-known fallacy and in my view, the Achilles heel of both approaches in understanding the Quran better.

There is another option which I wholeheartedly subscribe to.

The Quran provides its own context for the guidance it wants to impart.

THE QURAN PROVIDES ITS OWN EXPLANATION (TAFSIR)
 
025:033
"And no example do they bring to you but We bring you the truth and the best explanation (of it) (Arabic: Hasana Tafsir)"

It is not important from a Quran's perspective where a surah was revealed or in what order. It is a reading. Those narratives which are neither elaborated or have ‘seeming’ gaps should be interpreted with the intentional dearth of detailed information in which the narratives have been provided. What the Quran doesn’t elaborate on, is superfluous to immediate need with regards Divine guidance and intentional [1] God does not run out of words (31:27).

Lack of 'perceived' details of an event does not require one to source other material with a view to arbitrarily ‘fill them in’. Many verses have subtle nuances and are complete in that they make clear the general purport of the message and wisdom they intend to impart. Intricate details are not of its concern.

"Enter not, therefore, into controversies concerning them, except on a matter that is clear, nor consult any of them about (the affair of) the Sleepers" (18:22)

The wisdom / guidance / message from the verse above is clear. Do not elicit finer details. Stay with the general message, general purport of the guidance.

From a Quran's perspective, it cannot call itself the following, if it requires external sources of historical context to provide its meaning.


In summary therefore, I remain acutely aware / exercise extreme caution with both assertions / approaches (traditionalist or orientalist) which I find equally problematic and unwarranted.

Regards,
Joseph


REFERENCE:

[1] UNKNOWN TOWNS AND NAMES - WHY FILL IN THE GAPS?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/unknown%20towns%20and%20names%20FM3.htm

Title: Re: Quran Revelation Order
Post by: Hamzeh on September 04, 2016, 02:27:37 AM
Asalamu Alykum

Thanks brother Joseph for your inputs and thoughts. Very helpful Jazak Allah. That is what I was trying to say that the order of the revelations revealed was something the Quran does not get into, and how prophet Muhammad knew when to recited them was possibly another inspiration that was outside the Quranic inspiration. Something God did not deem it necessary to detail and was not part of mankind's guidance in a whole.


Thank you also brother Wakas for the article you shared by Robinson. There was in my opinion a lot of finer details and assumptions added to the Quranic text. Nevertheless the author seems sincere and admits that by using the Quran only, it is very unlikely that the revelation order can be extracted. Also he was very selective in what he choose from the biographies and admits he could not rely on its whole because some things just seemed very questionable. He seems that he does not accept the biographies as complete truth and may contain invented tales, please see the ending of chapter 2 relating to the satanic verses.


"Yet if we leave the Islamic tradition to one side, and approach the Qur'an without any presuppositions, the picture which emerges is extremely sketchy..."

"If we wish to fill in this sketch and sharpen its focus, our only option is to draw on the early biographies.... A cautious attempt was therefore made to use them in order to make more sense of the toponyms mentioned in the Qur'an and to construct a chronological framework in which to view the Qur'anic revelations."

"In attempting to construct a plausible chronological framework for the revelations, I inevitably had to be selective."

"It is possible, however, that like the story of Muhammad splitting the moon in two, it is-merely an exegetical fable invented to explain an otherwise puzzling text."[1]



Peace :)

[1] http://islam-and-muslims.com/DISCOVERING-QURAN-Robinson.PDF
Title: Re: Quran Revelation Order
Post by: good logic on September 04, 2016, 08:46:06 AM
Peace All.

For me GOD has been overseeing that Qoran is collected it in the order we have it:

75:16
Do not move your tongue to hasten it.
لا تُحَرِّك بِهِ لِسانَكَ لِتَعجَلَ بِهِ
75:17
It is we who will collect it into Qoran.
إِنَّ عَلَينا جَمعَهُ وَقُرءانَهُ
75:18
Once we recite it, you shall follow such a Qoran.
فَإِذا قَرَأنٰهُ فَاتَّبِع قُرءانَهُ
75:19
Then it is we who will explain it.
ثُمَّ إِنَّ عَلَينا بَيانَهُ
GOD bless.
Peace.

Title: Re: Quran Revelation Order
Post by: Zack on September 04, 2016, 01:10:50 PM

  • The modern, somewhat orientalist view, that due to the above, the Quran's original / intended meaning has been lost/ challenging to filter, because of a loss of historical context or dubious secondary sources.

From a Quran's perspective, it cannot call itself the following, if it requires external sources of historical context to provide its meaning.

  • A Clear Guidance (Huda)
  • Clear Proof (Burhan)
  • Explained in Detail (Fussilat)
  • Clear Explanation of All Things (Tibiana Lekulli Shayin)
  • The Ultimate Scale - Balance (Mizaan)
  • Discernment Between Truth and Falsehood (Furqan)
  • Evidence Absolutely Clear (Bayyina)


Dear Friends,

I have very much appreciated the articles by Br. Joseph, and this Forum. However this is one of the few areas where I personally feel I would have a somewhat different view concerning the post for 2 reasons:

I do not subscribe to the modern, somewhat orientalist view, that due to the above, the Quran's original / intended meaning has been lost/ challenging to filter, because of a loss of historical context or dubious secondary sources.

This has been discussed quite a bit in the following link:

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1896.msg9327#msg9327

1)   Basically with any scripture, having an understanding of context enhances our understanding of the original intent of the text. For example, if someone picked up the Qur’an as a text, even totally unbiased, with zero understanding of the context, I doubt that person would come to the conclusions on this forum. We create context external to the text, without realising it. Instead of any random place, we place the Prophets in a particular place and era. We place the setting in Arabia in the 7th century. We place the War Verses of the Qur’an in a context etc. etc. The more context, the more clarity in understanding.
2)   The Qur’an as a clear guidance, a proof etc. This too was revealed where its listeners had 100% context. Imagine, after they heard, and then they could ask to the Messenger, “what does that mean?” The text could be understood in the context of real life situations.

In regards to the term in Br. Josephs post “orientalist” view, to be honest I don’t know what this means these days. A growing number of so-called orientalists view the Qur’an as we have it today basically the same as the original, while others (though decreasing in number) may say that Muhammad never existed. I am not sure if the term has any relevance anymore.

Wasalam

Zack


Title: Re: Quran Revelation Order
Post by: good logic on September 04, 2016, 08:20:34 PM
Peace Zack.

Thank you for all your contributions here.

I would like to ask a couple of questions regarding this, quote:

1)   Basically with any scripture, having an understanding of context enhances our understanding of the original intent of the text. For example, if someone picked up the Qur’an as a text, even totally unbiased, with zero understanding of the context, I doubt that person would come to the conclusions on this forum. We create context external to the text, without realising it. Instead of any random place, we place the Prophets in a particular place and era. We place the setting in Arabia in the 7th century. We place the War Verses of the Qur’an in a context etc. etc. The more context, the more clarity in understanding.
2)   The Qur’an as a clear guidance, a proof etc. This too was revealed where its listeners had 100% context. Imagine, after they heard, and then they could ask to the Messenger, “what does that mean?” The text could be understood in the context of real life situations.


1-Who decides on what to follow as "today s instructions" from Qoran ?
Since everyone is going to "take" or "leave" from Qoran according to their "context"!
I thought all" This Qoran guides ( guided, guides today, will guide tomorrow) all generations that followed( will follow) Qoran.

2-What does " fully detailed " mean?
If GOD says " It is "We" who will explain it",should we doubt that statement?

Thank you in advance.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Title: Re: Quran Revelation Order
Post by: Joseph Islam on September 04, 2016, 11:37:01 PM
Dear Zack,

As-salamu alaykum

Thank you once again for your contributions and expertise in the knowledge you have been granted. Please do kindly keep contributing and assisting others.

I just wanted to elaborate a little more on the respected thoughts you have shared in red italics, if I respectfully may.

1)   Basically with any scripture, having an understanding of context enhances our understanding of the original intent of the text. For example, if someone picked up the Qur’an as a text, even totally unbiased, with zero understanding of the context, I doubt that person would come to the conclusions on this forum. We create context external to the text, without realising it. Instead of any random place, we place the Prophets in a particular place and era. We place the setting in Arabia in the 7th century. We place the War Verses of the Qur’an in a context etc. etc. The more context, the more clarity in understanding.

You say: "we place the Prophets in a particular place and era. We place the setting in Arabia in the 7th century. We place the War Verses of the Qur’an in a context etc. etc".

Yet the Quran provides as much context as it needs to. We know the Prophet was called Muhammad, what approximate era his ministry was active, that he was an Arab, spoke Arabic and much else. What exact date or century is not deemed relevant, yet whatever can be gleaned from the Quran is relevant. You respectfully appear to expect details of war, but there is sufficient guidance from what is being shared to derive an underlying message and an inner consistency that presents the reader with necessary wisdom. Again, there is an expectation for detail that many appear to have that the Quran seemingly deems unnecessary. It is detailed to the point what is necessary for religious guidance.

However, please kindly note that my statement "The Quran provides its own context for the guidance it wants to impart." is not as restrictive as I understand that you may be being led to believe.

My humble writings are prolific in this area.

Please kindly note that where the Quran provides more detailed context and where it is silent, its intention is not for the reader to elicit finer details, unless of course the Quran provides an interpretative opening.

For example, when it interacts with those of the previous scriptures, it expects an understanding of Biblical scriptures. It even refers the Arabian prophet Muhammad to interact with those of the previous scriptures to verify certain details "...ask of those who possess the Message" (16:43; 21:7-8). It speaks of entities as if it expects the audience to be familiar with them. For example, Mikaeel is mentioned only once in the entire Quran (2:98 - hapax legomenon) and that too extremely briefly.

There are further incidents that are so brief that some expectation exists that certain portions of the audience will be familiar with the narrative. The incident with Prophet Job is another example (38:41-38:44) and there are many other examples:

“And has there come to you the ‘news’ (naba-u) of the litigants? How they climbed over the wall into the (royal) chamber?” (38:21)

“Has there come to you the ‘hadith’ (narration) of Moses?” 20.9

There is also an expectation for Arabs (not necessarily of the previous scriptures) to be familiar with certain references which the Quran expounds to the point that it deems necessary for (a) The immediate audience and (b) Proffering general guidance for mankind.

“Has there come to you the story of the hosts, of Pharaoh and (the tribe of) Thamud?" (85:17-18)

However, the Quran ratifies the previous scriptures and thus implicitly, interaction with it to extract as much a context / possible background as one deems necessary and this approach is arguably sanctioned. It even refers to it as a 'guide' (28:49). Thus the Quran can remain perfectly ‘detailed / complete’ because it is in its narratives it is sanctioning certain scriptures / sources for guidance, if a context is to be studied further.

However, the Quran does not and cannot sanction a plethora of later corpora or the writings of fallible historians penning thoughts centuries after the revelation of the Quran. This is not within the Quran’s ‘detail’ or ‘remit’.

Thus in my view, the Quran encourages a 'Quran-centric' view which allows interaction with other sources but whilst only sanctioning 'religious authority' for itself for the purposes of religious guidance for the believers.

This in my humble view is a crucial / critical point, oft overlooked.


2)   The Qur’an as a clear guidance, a proof etc. This too was revealed where its listeners had 100% context. Imagine, after they heard, and then they could ask to the Messenger, “what does that mean?” The text could be understood in the context of real life situations.

And they did ask. Please kindly be in no doubt about this.

Yet, the Quran curtailed unnecessary questions. Please kindly note verses dealing with questions the audience enquired about the Spirit (17:85) or the Last Hour and see how God curtailed providing further details (79:42-79:43) to what had already been given (7:187). The primary audience didn't always have 100% context, yet knowledge was still withheld. Only what was necessary was shared.

However, the Quran also gave the explicit guidance not to delve in matters that were unclear inferring caution against eliciting finer details (18:22). Please also kindly note the guidance given to the primary audience not to ask unnecessary questions / elicit finer details in verse (5:101). The analogy with those who asked seemingly irrelevant questions before could be a reference to the people of Prophet Moses (5:102) and the incident with sacrificing a cow (2:67-71) where a seemingly straightforward general religious instruction became overtly complex because of the audience incessantly eliciting finer details.

Yet, in so many cases, this is exactly what even modern interpreters (and traditionalists) seem to expect and I fear this is the very type of expectation which gave rise to the accretion of the Ahadith corpus in the first place i.e. the need to constantly want to elicit finer details or fill in the gaps. 

Regards,
Joseph


REFERENCES:

[1] Is Hearsay Unquranic?
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/363674833769650
[2] DO NOT COMPLICATE RELIGION - WISDOM FROM SURAH BAQARAH
http://quransmessage.com/articles/wisdom%20-%20baqarah%20FM3.htm
[3] UNKNOWN TOWNS AND NAMES - WHY FILL IN THE GAPS?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/unknown%20towns%20and%20names%20FM3.htm
Title: Re: Quran Revelation Order
Post by: Student on September 05, 2016, 03:01:57 AM
Salaam Dear Joseph Sir,

I'm so very glad seeing your invaluable wisdom whenever you share  :D - Jazak Allahu Khairan. If you notice I started this post with skepticism on revelation order and I completely concur with you on all 7 points about the Quran and 2 thoughts about unwarranted restriction placed on its interpretation.

A ray of hope Alhumdulillah when I see you become active now and then and address few discussions, may I humbly bring your kind attention in your next available time slot on this one:Birth control http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2008.msg10436#msg10436 (http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2008.msg10436#msg10436) and also this:Hajj months http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1888.msg9922#msg9922 (http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1888.msg9922#msg9922)?
Title: Re: Quran Revelation Order
Post by: QM Moderators Team on September 05, 2016, 04:25:03 AM

... may I humbly bring your kind attention in your next available time slot on this one:Birth control http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2008.msg10436#msg10436 (http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2008.msg10436#msg10436) and also this:Hajj months http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1888.msg9922#msg9922 (http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1888.msg9922#msg9922)?

Student,

Although you are asking very politely our response is the same with everyone.  Please can we also ask you kindly not to badger or request others for responses. This is against forum policy. 
We note brother Joseph has responded to you in the past, but you simply cannot expect responses when you desire particularly for very long questions as in your first link.  Please let others respond if they feel they want or need to.

Thanks
Title: Re: Quran Revelation Order
Post by: Zack on September 05, 2016, 10:13:45 AM

Thus in my view, the Quran encourages a 'Quran-centric' view which allows interaction with other sources but whilst only sanctioning 'religious authority' for itself for the purposes of religious guidance for the believers.

Regards,
Joseph


Dear Br. Joseph (and Good Logic)

Thank you for your response. Based on your summarising sentence above, I believe I would have a somewhat similar view to yourself in that respect, however would add:

- So to not misunderstand, the primary text to understand the cultural and historical context to which the Quran speaks is the Quran itself. For example... A study by G R Hawting (who I don't agree with in other areas) observes the Muslim tradition of "Jahiliyah," which basically doesn't exist outside of later tradition, presents Mecca as polytheistic and idolatrous religion, immorality, the killing of female children, and the shedding of blood. This seeks to intensify a dramatic change in practices at the time of Muhammad. However Qur'anic studies, complimented by external sources, would seem to present this as not correct. The context of Arabia is Compromised Monotheism / Shirk... This is just an example, however it will probably result in subtle changes in understanding as the text is read.

- The other area that this relates to is..... My view is The same principles of Hermeneutics that I apply for the Bible, I apply to the Qur'an. That is, many times the New Testament speaks to a specific situation. For example, in the "Ummah" in the New Testament, the cultural practices may have caused women to rowdy in spiritual meetings. So instruction was given to a specific location, "Women be silent in gatherings." A literalist would take that statement and believe that universally women are to be silent. Someone applying Hermeneutics would go back and look at the original context, observe any universal principles, and probably see that with a changing context, the application is different.

The same Hermeneutic principles I believe apply to interpreting the Qur'an for the Qur'an centric community. Good Logic, your comment on "How do we know what to take and leave," yes... it would be in some ways it would be a whole lot easier if we all had a single culture and context and a simple check list to follow. But God has not created us like that.... he created us in diversity, not all as Arabs, and not all at the time of Muhammad. We need to read the text with that in mind.

I have come back to this point a couple of times, but hopefully it makes sense.

Wasalam

Zack

Title: Re: Quran Revelation Order
Post by: Student on September 06, 2016, 01:16:36 AM

... may I humbly bring your kind attention in your next available time slot on this one:Birth control http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2008.msg10436#msg10436 (http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2008.msg10436#msg10436) and also this:Hajj months http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1888.msg9922#msg9922 (http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1888.msg9922#msg9922)?

Student,

Although you are asking very politely our response is the same with everyone.  Please can we also ask you kindly not to badger or request others for responses. This is against forum policy. 
We note brother Joseph has responded to you in the past, but you simply cannot expect responses when you desire particularly for very long questions as in your first link.  Please let others respond if they feel they want or need to.

Thanks

I apologize for unintended hurt but by God I never meant it that way, my request is genuine and knowing and respecting fully well Sir Joseph's priorities and commitments my query may have very well escaped Sir Joseph's attention I humbly brought it up here in this thread with a redirection as you can see in that thread itself Sir Joseph himself asked me to list the questions in numbering bullet form so he can address each, time permitting. I know and I'm fully aware I can't expect answers to each and every query by Sir Joseph but whenever I do I feel lucky and my elation knows no bound. I keep my hopes alive  :) and pray that Allah swt bless Sir Joseph with long and healthy life so he can address all of us on subject not addressed by him at least in some length.

I'm sorry if somewhere/anywhere I implied or mention explicitly only Sir Joseph to respond and not others for I didn't mean that but full satisfaction comes to me when something comes from Sir Joseph directly simply because in his own words:
Quote
Given my own humble, yet ardent studies in this area and my work with the Quran over numerous years and a great portion of my life
I hope and trust you (and all respected members) don't disagree with my feeling.

Thanks and with unconditional apology (to you and all respected members in case anyone got hurt with my word unintentionally) once again,
Student
Title: Re: Quran Revelation Order
Post by: selim on January 12, 2017, 12:31:08 AM
Does someone know what the earliest known manuscript written in "revelation order" is? I searched it but found nothing specific other than a random museum piece from 17th century.