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The Quran => General Discussions => : yahya August 27, 2016, 02:08:18 PM

: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
: yahya August 27, 2016, 02:08:18 PM
Assalam alikum I was just wondering what does this verses mean because it makes it sound like Allah uses stars or planets as missiles but we know shooting stars are meteors and they are not stars or planets
: Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
: Sardar Miyan August 27, 2016, 04:34:11 PM
Allah is mentioning about Shaab-e- Saqib to throw on Shiateen who try to intrude heavans.
Shaab-e- Saqib is firery target on Shayteen.
: Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
: yahya August 28, 2016, 02:30:37 PM
Yea but the verse 67:5 says we made them the stars or planets if you know what I mean and of course meters and comets etc are not planets or stars and stars don't move
: Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
: Nura August 28, 2016, 07:02:53 PM
Salam Yahya

67:5

And certainly We have beautified the heaven nearest with lamps, and We have made them (as) missiles for the devils, and We have prepared for them punishment (of) the Blaze.

Here the Arabic word that has been translated as ' with lamps' ( in some other translations as luminary astral objects) is 'bimaṣābīḥa'

37:6
Indeed, We [We] adorned the sky [the world] with an adornment (of) the stars.

Here the Arabic word that has been translated as 'stars' is 'l-kawākibi'
 
The Arabic word for planet is 'kawkab' and star can be translated as ' najma' as well as 'kawkab' but most popular word for a star is 'najma' and for a planet is 'kawkab'

In 37:6 the Arabic is 'kawkab' and God says He has decorated the sky with these 'kawkabs' which is essentially correct if we take 'kawkab' to be stars/ planets or both. This verse does not talk about shooting stars.

In 67:5 the word is ' bimasabiha' , and the Arabic word for ' shooting star/ meteor' in Arabic is 'sihab'. I have posted about the formation of Arabic words and roots before in another post. In arabic, words are assigned meanings from their roots and in both the words ' bimasabiha' (where ' bi' basically means 'with', which means sky decorated with  ' sabiha') and ' sihab' have same roots 'sin-ha -ba'. Words that are formed using this roots mean meteor/shooting star .

I hope this answers your question.


: Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
: Nura August 28, 2016, 07:24:54 PM
Salam All

And on a related note, I have noticed often that quite a few of us are very eager to prove the scientific correctness of the verses of the Quran. This I believe was never the purpose of scripture; to use human understanding of science or basically flawed human understanding of God's created laws as a criterion to judge scripture. Science was never authorised by God as the criterion . We were asked to use reason/intellect. But that does not automatically equal to science. I do not intend to offend anyone when I say this, but science has its limitations. When we choose to overlook this we hurt noone but ourselves.

How can science be a criterion to judge scripture or God? When He is the source of both Science and Quran? If, we had been informed by Allah that science is the ultimate criterion to judge Him by or His Scripture by,then I would have never objected. Many has left the fold of Islam because they cannot reconcile their scientific understanding with incidences in the Quran, e.g. Virgin birth of Jesus, Moses' stick turning to a snake, Jesus resurrecting the dead etc. Science has no explanations for these and has claimed these as untrue stories. But would you believe science or Quran? And say my understanding and science may have deficiencies but God and His message is beyond any flaw or deficiency?


This approach of making science the ultimate benchmark has its own loopholes. We are not a fully rational creation, we have emotions and desires as well. This is how we were created. So, the path to understanding our creator cannot be via reason alone. We have to use all our gifts/abilities, ( reason, intellect, logic, emotion, doubt etc). We are not a completely rational creation and approaching God and Scripture using ration alone will lead us astray and there is ample proof of that around us. Tread very carefully!

May God bless us all  :)

: Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
: wanderer August 28, 2016, 08:01:05 PM
Nura, I have to strongly disagree with you on this one. I accept the literal occurance of miracles as stated in the Quran-- and I also believe wholeheartedly in modern science as a way to better understand God's creation. The two are not mutually exclusive. Miracles are just that-- a miraculous event authorized by God. They do not 'circumvent' the scientific laws that this universe is governed on. The Quran CLEARLY STATES, repeatedly, that REASON is how you can better understand Scripture, so I don't know what you are talking about. The train of thought that you are leading on is dangerously irrational and close-minded, in my humble opinion.
Regards,
wanderer
: Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
: Nura August 28, 2016, 08:07:00 PM
Dear Wanderer

I did not say Science cannot be used. I said every gift we have has to be used including logic, ration, science, emotion unseen parallel universe. Science cannot explain the miracles I mentioned. Please explain jinns, angels, virgin birth using modern science to me! Can u please read posts carefully before jumping into conclusions! I did not say science cannot be used. Putting undue emphasis on science alone has its loopholes. U do not have to agree with me. But do not misquote me or say that I said something which I did not. Please reread my previous post. I said science cannot be used as the ultimate criterion. Reason does not automatically equal science!
: Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
: yahya August 28, 2016, 08:13:00 PM
Thanks I see what you mean but I put miracle verse away from verses what sound like science for example I never put science next to jesus rasing the dead etc but the verses what sound like science like this one I do but if allah was making this verse sound like a miracle then I would never put science on this verse jazzakkallah but thanks
: Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
: wanderer August 28, 2016, 08:13:16 PM
Dear Nura_
I did read your previous post carefully. I'm sorry if I seemed harsh. What I was responding to was your assertion that the Quran did not authorize science, reason, and logic as a way of understanding scripture, and the implication that there, science is "un-Quranic", which as a person considering a career in the sciences, upset me. I'm sorry if I took your post the wrong way.
Regards,
wanderer
: Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
: Nura August 28, 2016, 08:15:32 PM
Dear wanderer

According to science there is not enough reason to believe or disbelieve in God! Science is not enough to prove or disprove the existence of God and that is a fact. Belief in God is not an entirely scientific belief. A lot of knowledge, knowledge from science as well as other fields help us conclude that there is a God. Not science alone. 
: Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
: Nura August 28, 2016, 08:21:08 PM
Dear wandere

No I did not say do not use Science, I said science has limitations. I said Science as we know today as a subject was never authorised by God as a criterion. Well, God did not tell us that believe what only science can explain and do not believe what science cannot explain. Current scientific knowledge cannot explain a lot of things in the Quran. Are u suggesting we should not believe in them? If we take that approach, we cannot believe in God, science cannot explain who God is. But Quran has. Just like the number nineteen and mathematics was not mentioned as an authorised way of judging the Quran. We can see what happens when we get carried away by a criterion, number 19, which was never authorised by God. Now 19ers believe two verses were added to Quran just to fit their understanding.  Knowledge is not only science, it has other branches, my point was all are important. My point was never to make science or anything as the ultimate criterion. Current science will not help u understand the incidents I mentioned
: Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
: wanderer August 28, 2016, 08:25:34 PM
I concur with your view wholeheartedly. Science and reason are one of the many "tools" we can use to better understand scripture. To answer your question, science can neither confirm or deny the existence of God, angels, or jinn, because science only looks at the natural, material world, which, such subjects do not reside in.
Regards
wanderer
: Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
: Nura August 28, 2016, 08:29:26 PM
Dear wanderer :)

It is ok. No harm no foul. I get a bit upset when I am misquoted. I am sorry if I hurt u :(
: Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
: yahya August 28, 2016, 08:33:11 PM
Assalam alikum sorry to bother you both so what does allah mean by stars in the lowest heaven because if it means our solar system there is only one star and that is the sun sorry to keep bothering g but I do appreciate it its just gets a bit confusing what some of the verses mean
: Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
: wanderer August 28, 2016, 08:35:18 PM
Salaam Nura:) No harm done. However, I would like to know why you think that science was.  never authorized by the Quran. The Quran has many verses saying that reason leads to truth, and that a lack of reason leads to superstition and paganism.
Regards
wanderer
: Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
: wanderer August 28, 2016, 08:36:43 PM
Don't mean to upset you:)
: Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
: Nura August 28, 2016, 09:03:26 PM
Dear wanderer :)

No need to apologise, it is a sincere question to understand my approach. I am happy to explain. When I approach the verses, I do not put more emphasis on science than other branches of knowledge. I put equal emphasis on science, ration, logic, emotion, social sciences, culture also knowledge of Arabic language and its nuances. It is not a belief that using  science only as the ultimate criterion was not given authority, it is a fact. Quran does not say belief in what only science can explain. Revelation is not limited to science.  No branch of knowledge was given the ultimate status of being a criterion or benchmark. But this does not mean science is not considered worthy at all. I am just saying not to become too focused on using science alone. Science has its limitations. We humans know very little genuine truths both about us and other creations. We assume a lot. Even in the field of science. There are a lot of scientific beliefs which do not have concrete proofs. We assume them to be true because there is not enough evidence to disprove it. U will get exposed to this in graduate level theoretical physics. This happens in all human branches of knowledge and by this I mean branches of knowledge where we did not receive knowledge directly from Allah confirming our findings. Science is a tool nothing more.

But science has led many to leave islam and this is a fact also. Many have concluded that a virgin birth is impossible, so Quran was lying. They put science over scripture and became misguided. I am just saying too much reliance on anything other than God, be it science, has the potential to mislead u. This is not hypothetical, this has happened.

Science satisfies or atleast attempts to satisfy the rational side of humans. But it completely ignores the spiritual aspects and the paranormal realm of things that can't be objectively proven to exist using our five senses or enhanced five senses ( microscope and other scientific gadgets only can magnify or amplify our five senses, they do not give us or help us develope extra senses with which to perceive).

I am simply saying, Do not put all your eggs in one basket. Do not believe anything or anyone above God and learn to trust your instincts and your intellect. We are not complete rational beings, we have other beautiful aspects too like emotional, spiritual which add to our complexity. U cannot understand God by ignoring these aspects about yourself or others because God considers as a whole, not as only rational beings. If we were only rational, believers would have never sinned, because it is irratinal to sin when u know u will have to answer and be judged. But believers do sin, and we also seek forgiveness because we are not completely rational,we have desires and desires are not always rational, and that is how we were created. Our rationality just helps us understand the reasons why we do something. But our human behaviour is not driven by ration alone, human emotion and desire plays a big part. U will learn this in economics that humans are rational beings, is an assumption, because the irrationalities of our everyday behaviour is enough to say this about us.
: Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
: wanderer August 28, 2016, 09:22:16 PM
Wow! What an eloquent answer sister Nura. I agree with most of the points you make; I too am a critic of atheistic "super-rationalism" or, the doctrine that all that exists in this world is what I can see with my own two eyes. This belief will almost inevitably lead to arrogance and falsehood. It may be helpful to instead spheres of existence, the material wold and the spiritual world. The material world is completely explainable by the laws of nature, the spiritual world, however, is not.
Regards
wanderer
: Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
: Nura August 28, 2016, 10:53:43 PM
Dear wanderer

You said :
'  The material world is completely explainable by the laws of nature,.... '

By this if u mean science can explain the material world completely, then I disagree with it, because that is not the case always. We cannot even explain why water, a fairly abundant substance behaves the way that it does using science. When I was in highschool I was also led to believe that science knows all the answers, it is our champion and is the only way to uncover and understand the material world. But modern science is nowhere near to explaining half the phenomenon occuring in the material world.

For example, a very simple principle of matter is that a liquid fills less volume when it freezes into a solid. That's because the molecules are closer together, which is why it gets hard. But water, unlike anything else, actually expands when it freezes, as you'll know if you've ever had a juice can explode in the freezer after forgetting about it. This is why ice cubes float , unlike any other substance, the frozen version is lighter and less dense than the liquid version. Why? Nobody knows. It's been a mystery to science.  There are complicated theories, but none of them are proven beyond doubt yet. In fact, despite the fact that water is the most ubiquitous substance, we know embarrassingly little about it.

Why is ice slippery? Science doesn't have a concrete answer for that either.

That's not where water's mysteries end, either. For some reason, hot water freezes faster than cold water. That is to say, if you take a glass of hot water and a glass of cold water and put them both in the freezer at the same time, the hot water will turn to ice before the cold water does. It's called the Mpemba effect.Again, the reason for this is completely unknown.

The more you will gain knowledge, the more u will learn just how much we do not know and how much the power or ability of science is overrated. Science cannot explain every phenomenon in the natural world. Science helps us to observe and make conclusions but in many cases science cannot explain why matter behaves the way it does. Just the way we can say ice is slippery but we cannot conclusively explain why exactly using modern scientific knowledge.

Science proves to be helpful in many cases, but it does not have the final say or the only say when it comes to better understanding the laws of scripture / scripture in general or laws of nature / the material world in general.

: Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
: wanderer August 28, 2016, 11:50:56 PM
We actually do know why ice floats on water and is less dense, it is because when water freezes, it's unique chemical structure makes it freeze into an expanded "honeycomb" shape, unlike other fluids. All of the other examples you mentioned are also easily explained by modern science. I highly implore you to look it up. Science is a mystery to uncover the "code" that the Creator "programmed" into the universe billions of years. We do not have all the answers and we never will, but we can try to get a glimpse of the majesty of the universe. Science is a tool-- it is not a philosophy. It can tell us HOW we are here, but it will never tell us WHY or WHO put us here. And with this, I believe I have shared all I have to share on the matter.
Regards
wanderer
: Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
: Nura August 29, 2016, 12:48:25 AM
Salam Wanderer

All of what u said are probable theories with rebuttals and objections. What u posted is high school science, once u go to college u will unlearn a lot of things u learnt in highschool. That is just where I will stop my discussion with u on this topic. For various personal reasons( safety concerns mainly) I do not disclose my credentials on this forum. But, I would still kindly remind u, I never post things before I carry out my own research. I would like to hope u keep that in mind, I never post anything whimsically or without enough concrete knowledge to back up my claims.

The question was not why ice floats on water, it is the only compound that has a less denser solid than a liquid state. No other compound has a less denser solid state than its liquid state, why that is exactly is not explained satisfactorily by any scientific theory till now. We only know ice is not denser than water, we cannot explain why.
 
So, no, science does not give explanations everytime. Sometimes it just gives us observations. No scientific explanation exist for a lot of things.

My point was that , science is not the ultimate tool that can unlock the secrets of the Quran. Science can explain some verses, not all. But we have to believe in those verses also with seemingly no scientific expalnation or sometimes contrary to science.

You may take science to be like a code now, take graduate level college courses in the sciences ( not undergrad stuff, the stuff taught beyond undergrad) , we will talk after. But I wish you all the best with your endeavours. Science has its limitations u will learn this soon enough  :)
: Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
: deleted August 29, 2016, 05:27:27 AM
Silicon dioxide demonstrates it too...
: Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
: Hamzeh August 29, 2016, 07:15:30 AM
Asalamu Alykum brothers and sisters.

A few other notes to keep in mind to this topic is that, miracles and the science and physics of nature are two different things.

It is God who created the laws of everything we see and don't see. I myself with my limited knowledge about science, I would assume from the views of a beginners level lay man to a specialist physicist philosopher that everything in this world and outer world, in ourselves and every law we have POINTS TO THE DIRECTION THAT THERE IS A DIVINE MASTER ARCHITECT/DESIGNER. I think this point remains key when discussing science.

To expound or find WHO this Divine Master Architect is thats another matter. The Lord Himself would be the FIRST AND ONLY to guide anyone to that path. From there on He may guide a soul through different paths, through knowing Him through His Scriptures, Signs and Wisdom etc.

I don't think science is always firm in its understandings, and if and when it is, all we do know is that there is some advanced intellectual design and law to what ever we humans discover.

We must use our reason, logic and intellect that God has given us which will lead us by God's will Insha'Allah to faith.

Also I find science is also one way of showing God's signs in the heavens and on the earth and within ourselves. 2:164, 3:190, 10:6, 12:105, 29:44, 30:22, 41:53 42:29, 45:3,

3:190 Indeed, in the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alternation of the night and the day are signs for those of understanding.

29:44 Allah created the heavens and the earth in truth. Indeed in that is a sign for the believers.

41:53 We will show them Our signs in the horizons and within themselves until it becomes clear to them that it is the truth. But is it not sufficient concerning your Lord that He is, over all things, a Witness?



To me it can't be science or at least true science that can disprove God, but it seems like even with all the signs and complexity of the signs in the heavens and earth cannot be of any avail to those who are disbelievers.

10:101 Say, "Observe what is in the heavens and earth." But of no avail will be signs or warners to a people who do not believe


All the laws and nature belong to God and their duties remain by His command

30:25 And of His signs is that the heaven and earth remain by His command. Then when He calls you with a [single] call from the earth, immediately you will come forth.


Miracles on the other hand is something that is beyond the laws of nature/physics.

When God has showed His signs that are not part of His creation and laws to the communities of the past, the signs were to manifest that ONLY GOD HAS THE AUTHORITY to do these and nothing in science, nature, or physics can do or will ever do.

Never in nature can a women deliver a baby without the intercession of a male or at least sperm(male counterpart). Only God can do that. Therefor a Miracle.

Never can anything in nature make the blood turn into water other than God or by His command which therefor becomes a Miracle.

Never can anything in nature raise the dead to life other that God or by His command which therefor becomes a Miracle.


To me I find all REAL FACTUAL SCIENCE will lead to the observation that there is a DIVINE MASTER ARCHITECT/DESIGNER.  I do not find any honesty and any sincerity if anyone would argue otherwise especially because its not the EARTH or NATURE that called out to us or sent us a book and proved beyond doubt any clarification of anything. For those who deny this will be waiting forever and still never will they have an answer to their origin and to the future. It always has been the ONE LORD who called to us through His Scriptures and Signs and explained EVERYTHING and left us Guidance. Subhan Allah, Glory be to the Lord.

Peace Insha'Allah
: Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
: Nura August 29, 2016, 10:47:36 AM
Salam Gahaille and everyone  :)

Thank u for correcting me! It was wrong of me to say water is the 'only' compound that has a solid with a denser liquid state, I overlooked that I used the term 'only'. I am aware about silicon dioxide. Anyways, I did not want to go into a lengthy discussion about chemical compounds and their nature. So, I tried to keep the discussion simpler. Nonetheless, it was wrong of me to use the word 'only' and to otherwise imply water is the only substance that behaves in this peculiar way.

My intention was to just point out some of the basic limitations of science in understanding the material world. I am a woman of science and I hold science in high esteem but when it comes to my personal approach to understanding Quran, I just do not put any greater emphasis on science than any other branches of knowledge that I have been fortunate enough to be a student of.

I never said, we cannot use science to understand Quran. I just wanted to tell u guys to be careful and not to make science or our own understanding of science have a greater weight than the words of scripture. I have seen this happening in my life, men and women of science, enthusiastically approaching the Quran and trying to reconcile scripture with keeping Science as the ultimate discerning tool of the veracity of Quran as scripture. And they have left Islam and now are proud apostates spewing hateful speech about the Quran. I never wanted this to happen to anyone of you. That's all. :)

I still believe that Quran is not a book of science, it is a book of God. True Science helps us understand some of the verses because science is also from Allah but Science helps us to understand how we and other creations were made by Allah and how these laws are governed by Him. He creates what He wants and He can and will bend the laws of Science whenever He deems it fit. God and scripture is above science.

Please do not misunderstand and think I am against using science. Nothing can be farther from the truth. But I am conscious of overtly relying on science as the discerner of absolute truth. I have faith in science but moreso in the words of the Quran.

I concur fully with what Hamzeh has shared.
: Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
: deleted August 29, 2016, 02:26:52 PM
Peace.  :)