QM Forum
The Bible => Discussions => Topic started by: Student on October 20, 2016, 04:58:24 PM
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Salaamun Alaykum,
Sir Joseph,
I was surprised in fact shocked to learn that there is not one single verse in entire Torah and Talmud explicitly mentioning afterlife (Hell and Heaven) - is this true? How is it possible contrasting this with the Quran so vivid that it takes its reader to a virtual tour of pleasures of paradise and the horrors of the Hell? It condemns anyone who does not believe in the afterlife to Hell, how then are Jews expected to fare well with few implied figurative verses in OT and most of them rejecting the Quran in its entirety?
Thanks,
~Student
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Shalom / peace Student ....
Brother Joseph has already answered this question here .....>>>
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=166.0
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Walekum salaam,
Brother Duster,
I saw that post and also some of the Jewish sites discussing their Aqeedah, and hence my query as their theological assertions are all based on few implicit verses that Sir Joseph mentioned in the post which you kindly shared. My question is after reading those is: how an entire and tremendous nation's (a God's favorite at that) fate is judged on implicit verses if they're are only given what we see today? Did they lost or corrupted it?
Please enlighten me in my KG knowledge in/about the previous scriptures :-[
Thanks,
~ Student
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Dear Student-
Jews were invited to accept the veracity of the Quran and re-read their holy books accordingly. Thus, they would have discovered the truth of the afterlife that had become somewhat 'hidden' to them over the years.
Regards
wanderer
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Salam
I agree with what Brother Wanderer has said and also, when the Quran talks about what a believer ( Mumin, Jew, Christian, Sabian, anybody who expects to be save from God's wrath) should believe in, there is no mention of heaven or hell.
5:69
Indeed, those who believed and those who became Jews and the Sabians and the Christians, whoever believed in Allah and the Last Day and did good deeds, then no fear on them and not they will grieve.
2:62
Indeed, those who believed and those who became Jews and the Christians and the Sabians - who believed in Allah and the Day [the] Last and did righteous deeds, so for them (is) their with their Lord and no fear on them and not they will grieve.
Final destination of the soul in either place ( heaven or hell) is after Day of Judgement /Last Day is over. Interestingly, what is mentioned in the Torah is the concept of accountability, the fact that one will be judged and have to answer to God and that they will be 'gathered'. This is ofcourse how one also sees the Day of Judgement decribed in the Quran, a day, when everyone will be raised again and gathered infront of God to be judged. After this Day of Judgement/Gathering occurs, your ultimate destination is heaven or hell, so the Torah is not missing any core belief. A day of 'gathering' is clearly mentioned in the Torah, you can see this 'gathering' as the Day of Judgement, when everyone( good and evil will be raised and gathered together in front of God) and also as a gathering in heaven( a gathering of only good and and pious souls) or hell ( an ultimate gathering of evil souls after the Judgement Day).
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Salaam,
Thanks Wanderer and Nura for sharing your thoughts but my Question still remains - is there or isn't there an EXPLICIT verse about afterlife in the OT? gathered/gathering is not explicit (apparently there's great disagreement and debate till date among Jews as simple Google/Bing results shows) besides 5:69 or 2:62 are NOT the ONLY verses about "set of beliefs" and we all as Quran centrist profess that and I'm sure you'll not disagree.
Is Yawm al-Hisab = Aakhirah and synonymous?
http://islamawakened.com/quran/30/16/ (http://islamawakened.com/quran/30/16/)
Jews were invited to accept the veracity of the Quran and re-read their holy books accordingly.
Have they accepted this invitation? And have they re-read their books after this verification?
Thus, they would have discovered the truth of the afterlife that had become somewhat 'hidden' to them over the years.
Have they discovered the truth?
Somewhat hidden? Have you read the OT and NT cover to cover?
I guess I better read it myself inshallah. Brother Zack and other brothers of scriptures who embraced the Quran, can you guide me to the best Android app where I can read in my leisure the OT and NT? I thank you for sharing this desktop http://www.revisedenglishversion.com/ site, I see few links are broken or not working but I would solicit your advise on how to start and read cover to cover scriptures of the past Prophets?
Thanks,
~ Student
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Shalom / peace......A Jewish prophet came to them before prophet Muhammad that taught them the Torah and spoke to them about the afterlife in a lot of detail......He was given the Injeel.....and he was only sent to the Jews or Children of Israel....His name was Jesus......did the Jews believe in him???.......they are told to rely on all that came to them........
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Peace Student.
Like you said, the best answer would be for you to read/study the old testament and find out.
For one view check this:
http://helpmewithbiblestudy.org/7Humans/DeathWhatDidOTBelieversThink.aspx
Or this view:
https://theophiletos.wordpress.com/2015/01/11/afterlife-in-the-old-testament/
And this one:
http://people.bethel.edu/~dhoward/classes/OT232/OTafterlife.pdf
There are lots of views around, but the best one for you will be your own after you study the old testament.
GOD bless you.
Peace
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Salaamun Alaykum,
Brother Duster
Shalom / peace......A Jewish prophet came to them before prophet Muhammad that taught them the Torah and spoke to them about the afterlife in a lot of detail......He was given the Injeel.....and he was only sent to the Jews or Children of Israel....His name was Jesus......did the Jews believe in him???.......they are told to rely on all that came to them........
Exactly! That is my question to Wanderer earlier. As the beginner's Quran reader I humbly feel the Divine scriptures are sequential in some sort and hence belief in all of them as and when they revealed is required for complete and correct guidance otherwise we have this conundrum - entire OT without one explicit verse about the afterlife and the Quran which is Muhaimin over it says the previous scriptures are partially corrupt and some of it was deliberately kept hidden (was 'afterlife' fell victim of this crime?)
Sister Nura,
FYI - I came across this thread where brother Imran Faruqi's argument appears very solid and cogent and addresses "set of beliefs" which includes the verses you quoted 2:62 and 5:69 among all other relevant ones.
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1602.0 (http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1602.0)
Brother Good Logic,
Thanks for sharing the links :)
Excuse me for being naive, is Daniel part of OT or NT? It appears the verse 2 http://www.revisedenglishversion.com/Daniel/12 (http://www.revisedenglishversion.com/Daniel/12) is explicit about afterlife and expressing fate of both its dwellers. So, as brother Duster kindly noted the belief in Daniel (appears to be part of NT) is required for correct and complete belief in one aspect of life and afterlife among all other "set of beliefs".
Thanks,
~Student
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Yes, perhaps the afterlife did fall victim to some of the crimes of some of the Children of Israel, perhaps to peddle some theological agenda. But that is no longer relevant, seeing as we now have pure, undefiled scripture explicitly mentioning the afterlife in great detail. There is no longer any excuse for anyone not to acknowledge this nowadays (provided they have come into contact with it and are aware of its true message).
Regards
wanderer
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Salam
I have read the thread before hand and I do not agree with brother Imran Faruqui. I have given my statement regarding this topic with proof from Quran. If Quran says believe in one God, Day of Judgement and doing good deeds is enough for salvation. I am not going to question it. God clearly says people who are doing these things have nothing to fear. There are countless other things mentioned in the Quran and one is ofcourse supposed to believe them as well. But I think these verses reflect how merciful our God really is and that He is not complicated. We make religion complicated by searching for ever finer details. When God is silent. Brother Faruqui makes a lot of statements in that post for which there is no Quranic evidence. He believes that:
1. The Qur’an informs the People of the Book that their own Scriptures are partially corrupted:
Yes partially corrupted and the Quran still asks them to follow their own scripture. He conviniently overlooks this point. Brother Joseph has detailed articles and posts about this. I have also posted relevent posts with evidence previously. Please search and find them out.
2. The Qur’an points out some specific doctrines from past Scriptures that are false. For example, it points out that the doctrine of the Trinity is false:
Yes and they are asked to desist . But they are still asked to follow the shariah of the Torah. The Quran does not override the Torah's shariah. Not one verse in the entire Quran says that it has come to override and replace the previous books' shariah. Please read relevant posts by Brother Joseph or else, may I suggest you read the entire Quran yourself and search for evidence. You will not get a verse that says otherwise.Brother Joseph has an article discussing this, that the Bible does not teach trinity.
3. The Qur’an was sent to remove some of the shackles that were previously on the People of the Book:
Yes, some not all shackles are removed and they are mentioned in detail in the Quran which are lifted, like they can marry our women and have our food and vice versa. Also a lot of their shariah remains unchanged and they are asked to adhere to them. If they fail to do so they will be transgressing.
4. The Qur’an is a confirmation of previous Scriptures, and with FINAL AUTHORITY over them:
The Quran guards and confirms the Torah. It is not a final authority over the other Books. If something is not mentioned in the Quran but mentioned in Torah, that does not automatically mean that the information in the Torah is false. The Quran clearly says that it brushes over a lot of information in the Bible. It is not the intention of the Quran to replace the Bible. The Quran has shariah for believers and Bible and Torah has shariah for Children of Israel. This thought that Bible is not enough for guidance is entirely unquranic. We are also asked to believe in the Bible, but this does not mean we have to follow the Bible's shariah and this is implausible in some cases, the Children of Israel have a different Qibla and we have a different one. Plurality of shariah is evident in the Arabic Quran.
Moreover, are you aware that brother Faruqui claims to be a messenger?! He has claimed and has worked with end of the days topics, they are on this forum. I have gone through them and I am not a fan of his work. He makes a lot of unfounded assumptions about Islam. He makes a lot of claims about religion which are not sourced from the the Quran or the Bible. He claims we should believe him because he is a messenger, and these are revealed to him. I would ask anyone to take his posts with a pinch of salt and do their own research before believing anything he says.
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Peace Nura.
I am not sure about what you are saying here,quote:
" We are also asked to believe in the Bible"
Please give the Qoran verse/s for this.
Thank you.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Peace Student.
Daniel was before Jesus. How can it be part of NT?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Salam Brother Good logic
Peace Nura.
I am not sure about what you are saying here,quote:
" We are also asked to believe in the Bible"
Please give the Qoran verse/s for this.
By this I meant that we are asked to believe that there were other divinely inspired books and the Torah was from Allah. But, it contained laws( shariah) for Children of Israel. We are not asked to follow the Torah's shariah.We are asked to follow Quran's shariah but believe in the divinity of the Torah, Zabur etc. For example: Our Qibla is the one stated in the Quran.
We are asked to believe in the Torah and Bible present with 7th century Children of Israel:
29:46
"And do not dispute with the followers of the Book except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our Allah and your Allah is One, and to Him do we submit"
003.003-4
It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it (Arabic: ma bayna yadayhi); and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the Criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). Then those who reject faith in the signs of God will suffer the severest penalty, and God is exalted in might, Lord of retribution”
And Allah says not to be in doubt when we come in contact with what Children of Israel were reading at the prophet Muhammad's time:
32:23
"And certainly We gave Moses the Scripture, so do not be in doubt encountering it (Arabic: liqaihi) and We made it a guide for the Children of Israel"
Also we are asked to believe in all the books and all the messengers.
2:285
"The messenger believes in that which has been revealed to him from his Lord and (so do) believers (Arabic: mu'minuna). Each one believes in God and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers - We make no distinction between any of His messengers - and they say: We hear, and we obey. (Grant us) Thy forgiveness, our Lord. Unto Thee is the journeying"
Regarding the Torah, we are asked not to argue with Children of Israel, and any dispute with them and us will be settled by God on the day of Judgement:
10:41
"If they charge you with falsehood, say: "My work to me, and yours to you! ye are free from responsibility for what I do, and I for what you do!""
Mumins and Children of Israel have the same religion (deen):
42:13
"The same religion / system (Arabic: Deen) has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah and that which We have sent by inspiration to thee and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions in it: to those who worship other things than God, hard is the (way) to which you call them. God chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him)"
But Mumins (people who received in Quran as the binding scripture) and Children of Israel have different shariah( religious laws) and different religious rites
22:67-69
"To every People have We appointed rites and ceremonies which they must follow: [See above 5.48] let them not then dispute with thee on the matter, but do invite (them) to thy Lord: for you are assuredly on the right way. If they do wrangle with you, say, "God knows best what it is you are doing. God will judge between you on the Day of Judgment concerning the matters in which you differ." [See 10.41 below]
5:48
“To thee We revealed the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that is between the hands (Arabic: bayna yadayhi - coexistent Torah and Bible *), and guarding it by determining what is true and false (Arabic: wa-muhayminan): so judge between them by what God has revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that has come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law (Arabic: Shir-atan) and an open way (Arabic: waminhajan). If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He has given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute”
Conversion is not necessary for the Children of Israel:
Brother Joseph says:
42:15-16
“To this then go on inviting, and go on steadfastly on the right way as you are commanded, and do not follow their desires, and say: I believe in what God has revealed of the Book, and I am commanded to do justice between you: God is our Lord and your Lord; we shall have our deeds and you shall have your deeds; no plea need there be (now) between us and you: God will gather us together, and to Him is the return. But those who dispute concerning God after He has been accepted, futile is their dispute in the Sight of their Lord: on them will be a severe punishment”
Once God has been recognised as one God of both parties whom both parties serve, any further dispute in the sight of God is futile.
Brother Joseph's article describes beautifully what is expected from us and the People of the Book. Please read it, if you haven't. He explains in detail their role and our role while interacting with them and their Scripture, Torah and Bible :
http://www.quransmessage.com/articles/people%20of%20the%20book%20FM3.htm
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Peace Nura.
Thank you for your post.
GOD is consistent . GOD has not asked us or anyone else to follow "Men s words".
GOD has asked ( All the three religions) to follow "What He revealed only".
I do not see anywhere in Qoran where GOD is asking anyone to follow/judge by" the bible" .
Of course if one claims every word in the bible is "What GOD has revealed",then let us have the evidence.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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I do not see anywhere in Qoran where GOD is asking anyone to follow/judge by" the bible" .
Goodlogic - I have to say this but nothing frustrates me more on this forum than your posts at times. ...clear verses and you just seem to ignore them. over and over ....Frustrating ......really really frustrating. You actually make me angry sometimes ... Verses are put in front of you and you just deny them. .....
5:47
And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed – then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.
You going to deny this. .?
5:43
But how is it that they come to you for judgement while they have the Torah, in which is the judgement of Allah? Then they turn away, [even] after that; but those are not [in fact] believers.
You going to deny this? .
And there are more. .....but as has been shown you are a follower of RK and nothing it seems is gonna change your mind. ....
This is certainly not good logic!!!
Shalom /peace to you all......
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For other verses, also see:
http://misconceptions-about-islam.com/quran-bible.html
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Salam
I have read the thread before hand and I do not agree with brother Imran Faruqui. I have given my statement regarding this topic with proof from Quran. If Quran says believe in one God, Day of Judgement and doing good deeds is enough for salvation. I am not going to question it. God clearly says people who are doing these things have nothing to fear. There are countless other things mentioned in the Quran and one is ofcourse supposed to believe them as well. But I think these verses reflect how merciful our God really is and that He is not complicated. We make religion complicated by searching for ever finer details. When God is silent. Brother Faruqui makes a lot of statements in that post for which there is no Quranic evidence. He believes that:
1. The Qur’an informs the People of the Book that their own Scriptures are partially corrupted:
Yes partially corrupted and the Quran still asks them to follow their own scripture. He conviniently overlooks this point. Brother Joseph has detailed articles and posts about this. I have also posted relevent posts with evidence previously. Please search and find them out.
2. The Qur’an points out some specific doctrines from past Scriptures that are false. For example, it points out that the doctrine of the Trinity is false:
Yes and they are asked to desist . But they are still asked to follow the shariah of the Torah. The Quran does not override the Torah's shariah. Not one verse in the entire Quran says that it has come to override and replace the previous books' shariah. Please read relevant posts by Brother Joseph or else, may I suggest you read the entire Quran yourself and search for evidence. You will not get a verse that says otherwise.Brother Joseph has an article discussing this, that the Bible does not teach trinity.
3. The Qur’an was sent to remove some of the shackles that were previously on the People of the Book:
Yes, some not all shackles are removed and they are mentioned in detail in the Quran which are lifted, like they can marry our women and have our food and vice versa. Also a lot of their shariah remains unchanged and they are asked to adhere to them. If they fail to do so they will be transgressing.
4. The Qur’an is a confirmation of previous Scriptures, and with FINAL AUTHORITY over them:
The Quran guards and confirms the Torah. It is not a final authority over the other Books. If something is not mentioned in the Quran but mentioned in Torah, that does not automatically mean that the information in the Torah is false. The Quran clearly says that it brushes over a lot of information in the Bible. It is not the intention of the Quran to replace the Bible. The Quran has shariah for believers and Bible and Torah has shariah for Children of Israel. This thought that Bible is not enough for guidance is entirely unquranic. We are also asked to believe in the Bible, but this does not mean we have to follow the Bible's shariah and this is implausible in some cases, the Children of Israel have a different Qibla and we have a different one. Plurality of shariah is evident in the Arabic Quran.
Moreover, are you aware that brother Faruqui claims to be a messenger?! He has claimed and has worked with end of the days topics, they are on this forum. I have gone through them and I am not a fan of his work. He makes a lot of unfounded assumptions about Islam. He makes a lot of claims about religion which are not sourced from the the Quran or the Bible. He claims we should believe him because he is a messenger, and these are revealed to him. I would ask anyone to take his posts with a pinch of salt and do their own research before believing anything he says.
Walekas salaam,
Sister Nura,
I'm really caught by surprise to learn Imran Faruqi claims messenger-ship and revelation for himself. Can you provide link/forum thread where he did that?. Thanks for alerting me and bringing this to my attention. In any-case I'm not a fan of him either and I hardly read his stuff and as I said I came across unintentionally on his thread and his last post on that thread really (despite his background or claims) is worthwhile - you said you and Sir Joseph answered his/similar views so will you please point me to those threads (sorry searching and landing on the desired topic on this forum is challenging to me, unless I'm missing something simple or may be I'm too spoiled by Google :D). I've read http://quransmessage.com/articles/people%20of%20the%20book%20FM3.htm (http://quransmessage.com/articles/people%20of%20the%20book%20FM3.htm) this before and I did it again after your post and the way I understood it perfectly fits Imran Faruqi's concluding statement of exception:
Finally, an important point of clarification, the People of the Book who DO NOT believe in the authenticity of the Qur’an, are therefore obviously NOT obliged to follow it. So long as they uphold their own Scriptures, and do not associate partners with God, they are still entitled entry to Heaven. Hence the choice is theirs: THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK CAN EITHER BELIEVE OR NOT. However, once they become Believers in the Qur’an’s authenticity, they are obliged to also follow it, for reasons elucidated above.
So, will you please provide me all the post links that address all the questions he raised just before the above conclusion? Otherwise I'm confused as how one can just take 2:62 & 5:69 as absolute statements. In fact the approach Sir Joseph advances and emphasize for all of us is holistic and not a cherry pick one in understanding the message of the Quran.
Indeed, those who believed and those who became Jews and the Sabians and the Christians, whoever believed in Allah and the Last Day and did good deeds, then no fear on them and not they will grieve.
If taken absolute, then Trinity Christians (Hindus and all traditional Muslims and perhaps many other religions' followers) believe in Allah (with different name of course, http://quransmessage.com/articles/allah%20is%20not%20an%20exclusive%20name%20for%20god%20FM3.htm (http://quransmessage.com/articles/allah%20is%20not%20an%20exclusive%20name%20for%20god%20FM3.htm)) and the last day and they do good deeds. Since this ayat does not add or elaborate belief in oneness of Allah, various categories of shirk http://quransmessage.com/articles/idolatry%20according%20to%20the%20quran%20FM3.htm (http://quransmessage.com/articles/idolatry%20according%20to%20the%20quran%20FM3.htm), and what the good deeds are unless the rest and whole of the Quran is referred the difficulty does not disappear. So, I would like to learn and enlighten myself with this reconciliation.
Also, and more importantly, we keep digressing from the main Q and subject of the post - where/which verse in the OT is explicit on the "Last Day" and "Hereafter"? It's the key to 2:62 and 5:69 even if it's taken in absolute sense (and not look for qualification)
Br. Good logic
Peace Student.
Daniel was before Jesus. How can it be part of NT?
Sorry I told you I'm Naive in previous scripture and beginner student of the Quran :-[
So, is Daniel part and parcel of OT? If so, why did Sir Joseph not mentioned it when discussing the subject in this http://post?
Br. Wakas,
Thanks for the link, I totally concur (in fact I mentioned the scriptures be treated as sequential = continuation in this line of revelation) and just so there's no wrong assumption about my view - I never said or subscribe to annulation/Mansukhi concept of previous scriptures but whatever contradicts with Quran is aught to be rejected and that is my understanding thus far.
Can someone list the names of the books in OT and names of the books in NT?
Thanks,
~Student
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I'm really caught by surprise to learn Imran Faruqi claims messenger-ship and revelation for himself. Can you provide link/forum thread where he did that?. Thanks for alerting me and bringing this to my attention. In any-case I'm not a fan of him either and I hardly read his stuff and as I said I came across unintentionally on his thread and his last post on that thread really (despite his background or claims) is worthwhile
Shalom / peace Student
Here is where the claim was made
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=313.msg9483#msg9483
....This is what he said ....
"And, just to be clear: yes, I am a divinely inspired Messenger, sent by God to warn the global community of the imminently approaching Final Hour…"
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Can someone list the names of the books in OT and names of the books in NT?
Thanks,
~Student
Simple google search? Not sure why you have asked this .......
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_of_the_Bible
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Salam Brother Student
I'm sorry sometimes I do ask brothers and sisters on this forum to do a search instead of posting the links myself due to lack of time on my end. It is definitely not to insinuate anyone of you esteemed brothers or sisters are lazy. :)
Anyway, coming back to the topic of discussion, you said:
Finally, an important point of clarification, the People of the Book who DO NOT believe in the authenticity of the Qur’an, are therefore obviously NOT obliged to follow it. So long as they uphold their own Scriptures, and do not associate partners with God, they are still entitled entry to Heaven. Hence the choice is theirs: THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK CAN EITHER BELIEVE OR NOT. However, once they become Believers in the Qur’an’s authenticity, they are obliged to also follow it, for reasons elucidated above.
Can you please tell me or provide a verse from which Brother Faruqui got this idea that However, once they become Believers in the Qur’an’s authenticity, they are obliged to also follow it, for reasons elucidated above.
The Quran does not say this. With respect, the burden of proof is on Brother Faruqui ( and you, if you agree with him) to provide a verse from the Quran that says, Children of Israel, once convinced of the divinity of the Quran, must abandon Torah and start following the Quran's shariah.
There are clear verses in the Quran where Allah says, Children of Israel have to judge by their Books and follow them.
(4) THE JEWS JUDGED BY THE TORAH
005.043
But why do they come to you for decision, when they have (their own) Torah before them? therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not People of Faith.
The 'Therein' (Arabic: Fi-ha) is still a reference to the Torah. The Jews are being told to judge from what has been revealed to them (Torah) and if they don't, they are 'Kaffirs' (Disbelievers)
005.044
It was We who revealed the Torah (to Moses): therein (Arabic: Fi-ha) was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to God's will, by the rabbis and the scholars (Arabic: Ahbaru) : for to them was entrusted the protection of God's book, and they were witnesses to it: therefore do not fear mankind, but fear Me, and sell not my verses (Arabic: Ayati) for a miserable price. If any fails to judge by (the light of) what God has revealed, they are Unbelievers (Arabic: Kaffiruna) .
005.045
"And We prescribed for them in it: The life for the life, and the eye for the eye, and the nose for the nose, and the ear for the ear, and the tooth for the tooth, and for wounds retaliation. But who forgoes it (in the way of charity) it shall be expiation for him. Who judges NOT by that which God has revealed: such are wrong-doers. (Arabic: Zalimuna) "
The truth can be found within their own Torah as specific references are quoted. (e.g. Exodus 21:23-25)
(5) THE CHRISTIANS JUDGED BY THEIR OWN GOSPELS
005.046
"And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Torah that had come before him (Arabic: Bayna yadayhi) : We sent him the Gospel: in it was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Torah that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear God."
Arabic readers will note that the term 'Bayna Yadayhi does not necessarily mean 'had come before him' as used by popular translations (such as the above). Rather, a more literal and possibly context accurate reference is: 'Between the hands'. Please see related article [7] below for a deeper analysis of the term. This therefore, refers to the Torah that was co-existent at the time of Prophet Jesus. (pbuh)
005.047
"Let the people of the Gospel judge by what God has revealed in it. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God has revealed, they are those who rebel (Arabic: Fasiquna)."
Please note - By the time of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) (Late 6th early 7th century), parts of the Bible had already undergone changes and a creed had developed (The Council of Nicaea congregated in 325AD). The Quran however, is still clearly recognising the text that lay with them.
The Quran only corrects some of their selected transgressions and also only the transgressions being committed by the prophet Muhammad's contemporaneous Children of Israel. All they are asked to do is follow their own books sincerely.
(2) ALL JEWS & CHRISTIANS HAVE TO DO IS ABIDE BY THE TRUE TEACHINGS OF THEIR SCRIPTURES
005.065
"If only the People of the Book had believed and been righteous, We should indeed have blotted out their iniquities and admitted them to gardens of bliss."
005.068
"Say: "O People of the Book! you have no ground to stand upon unless you firmly stand by (Arabic: Tuqimu) the Torah, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that comes to you from thy Lord, that increases in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But do not grieve over disbelieving people"
I am sorry But the Quran recognizes believers among Children of Israel and their belief is summarized as follows, Brother Joseph clearly shows that there is a two-tier system:
(17) THERE ARE 'BELIEVERS' AMONG THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK
002.121
"Those to whom We have sent the Book study it as it should be studied: They are the ones that believe in it: Those who reject faith therein,- the loss is their own"
003.199
"And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book (Arabic: Ahli-l-kitabi), those who believe in God, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to God: They will not sell the Signs of God for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and God is swift in account"
This is clearly a two-tier system where plurality is recognised. The people who believe in the final revelation are still being referred to as the People of the Book (Ahli-l-kitabi)
017.107-108
"Say: Believe in it or believe not; surely those who are given the knowledge before it fall down on their faces in prostration when it is recited to them. And they say: Glory be to our Lord! most surely the promise of our Lord was to be fulfilled"
005.083"And when they listen to the revelation received by the Messenger, you will see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses"
028.052-53
“Those to whom We sent the Book before this, they do believe in this (revelation). And when it is recited to them, they say: "We believe in it, for it is the Truth from our Lord: indeed we have been Muslims from before this"”
Here the difference between the Quranic usage of the term 'Muslim' and 'Believers' is clear. A Muslim is anyone who submits to the will of God as a monotheist. Believers (Arabic: Amanu) are specifically those that have belief in the final scripture of God (i.e. the Quran), as truth from Him.
You agree with the above conclusion but can you give me a reason why you do not agree with Brother Joseph when he says:
42:15-16
(16)CONVERSION IS NOT NECESSARY
“To this then go on inviting, and go on steadfastly on the right way as you are commanded, and do not follow their desires, and say: I believe in what God has revealed of the Book, and I am commanded to do justice between you: God is our Lord and your Lord; we shall have our deeds and you shall have your deeds; no plea need there be (now) between us and you: God will gather us together, and to Him is the return. But those who dispute concerning God after He has been accepted, futile is their dispute in the Sight of their Lord: on them will be a severe punishment”
Once God has been recognised as one God of both parties whom both parties serve, any further dispute in the sight of God is futile.
You asked:
If taken absolute, then Trinity Christians (Hindus and all traditional Muslims and perhaps many other religions' followers) believe in Allah (with different name of course, http://quransmessage.com/articles/allah%20is%20not%20an%20exclusive%20name%20for%20god%20FM3.htm) and the last day and they do good deeds. Since this ayat does not add or elaborate belief in oneness of Allah, various categories of shirk http://quransmessage.com/articles/idolatry%20according%20to%20the%20quran%20FM3.htm, and what the good deeds are unless the rest and whole of the Quran is referred the difficulty does not disappear. So, I would like to learn and enlighten myself with this reconciliation.
Brother, Trinitarians are asked to stop believing in that concept, if even after reading the Quran,and being convinced of its divinity, they do not stop believing in trinity, they have to answer to God. With respect people of other religions are not 'Children of Israel'. These 'others' are asked to consider the Quran and once convinced of its veracity, are asked to follow the Quran. The Quran then expects, 'these others' to follow Quran's shariah. But, Children of Israel is supposed to follow the sharia in their Books.
Belief in God, has to be in accordance to what God says about him in the Quran and Bible. There can be no one associated with Him knowingly.Shirk has to be avoided, and only those whose belief in God aligns with what God says about Himself are mentioned in that verse. Not all Children of Israel believe in Trinity and do shirk as discussed above.
Are you telling me without the Quran people do not know what good deeds are? The Quran does not say this. The Quran claims we inherently know which are good deeds and which are bad. That's how God created us.
091:007-10
"And a soul (Arabic: Nafsin) and Him Who perfected / proportioned it. And inspired it (with conscience of) what is wrong for it and (what is) right for it. He is indeed successful who causes it to grow (purifies it), and he is indeed a failure who corrupts it (buries it)"
Also, and more importantly, we keep digressing from the main Q and subject of the post - where/which verse in the OT is explicit on the "Last Day" and "Hereafter"? It's the key to 2:62 and 5:69 even if it's taken in absolute sense (and not look for qualification)
Why is the answer provided by Brother Joseph, about the mention of a gathering in hereafter not enough? If, there is to be a gathering in the hereafter, it is evident that there is some sort of an afterlife. Why do you need an explicit statement from the Bible? The Quran already mentions it in great detail. For us, who are not Children of Israel, the Quran is the binding book. We will be asked to justify our beliefs from the Quran. If, people of the book read the Quran as they are asked to do, ( to not dismiss the Quran without reading it and thinking over it), they will have explicit verses from Quran and verses from the Bible to believe in a hereafter. We have given you proof that the concept of accountability and afterlife can be found in the Bible as well. Just because something is not explicitly said, does not mean that it is not mentioned, e.g somethings of a sexual nature are not explicitly prohibited in the Quran ( lesbianism and bestiality) but we can understand that these actions are impermissible from other verves where this understanding/interpretation is implied. Not everything needs an explicit verse for it to be mentioned in the scripture, be it Bible or the Quran. Hence, we are asked to ponder on the verses. If everything was explicit, then there would be no need to ponder.
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Peace Duster.
Where is the bible mentioned in the verses you quoted here?:
5:47
And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed – then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.
You going to deny this. .?
There is no bible in this verse brother, look it says "What Allah has revealed" not the bible!!!
5:43
But how is it that they come to you for judgement while they have the Torah, in which is the judgement of Allah? Then they turn away, [even] after that; but those are not [in fact] believers.
You going to deny this? .
Again brother , Torah is not the bible.
I cannot find anywhere in Qoran where GOD is asking to follow or judge by the "bible"
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Shalom / peace Good logic.
You say Torah is not the Bible ..... so what is it? Don't you understand the Torah as being part of the bible?
We got full Bibles - Old and New testaments before prophet Muhammad's ministry. So when the Quran says them to judge by the Injeel, what is that?
Why do you have to argue for the sake of it? What will it take to get a simple verse through to you?
Now tell me - what is the Torah? What books were they reading that they were told to go back to??? A bible is simply a collection of books. So is the Torah part of the Bible or a collection of books or not??
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Peace Duster.
If I remember correctly ,we have already discussed this subject, yet you say,quote
Goodlogic - I have to say this but nothing frustrates me more on this forum than your posts at times. ...clear verses and you just seem to ignore them. over and over ....Frustrating ......really really frustrating. You actually make me angry sometimes ... Verses are put in front of you and you just deny them. .....
We discussed it here,for example:
Peace Duster.
The two books are :
1- What was sent to Moses from GOD.
2- What was sent to Mohammed from GOD.
GOD is talking about "His words" ,what He sent down.
Look at the confirmation from the previous verse:
28:48
فَلَمّا جاءَهُمُ الحَقُّ مِن عِندِنا قالوا لَولا أوتِىَ مِثلَ ما أوتِىَ موسىٰ أَوَلَم يَكفُروا بِما أوتِىَ موسىٰ مِن قَبلُ قالوا سِحرانِ تَظٰهَرا وَقالوا إِنّا بِكُلٍّ كٰفِرونَ
The key words are "Min indina" Qoran from GOD and "Outia moussa!What Moses was given from GOD
The bible is not mentioned there!!! It contains both GOD s words and men s words!!! GOD is certainly not talking about the "bible".
I have not seen any verse/s from Qoran where GOD said follow/judge by the "bible".
GOD bless you .
Peace.
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Shalom / peace goodlogic...
In my view you are still banging the irrational drum ....
What was revealed to the People of the Book ....???
Torah is mentioned in the Quran
Injeel is mentioned in the Quran
Zabur is mentioned in the Quran
005.068
"Say: "O People of the Book! you have no ground to stand upon unless you firmly stand by (Arabic: Tuqimu) the Torah, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord."
Can't you see that there are more books apart from the Torah and Gospel that was revealed to them by other prophets??? Even today the Bible consists of these books.... So why are you keep banging this ridiculous drum that the Quran does not mention the Bible??? What on earth are these books???
"O People of the Book! you have no ground to stand upon unless you firmly stand by (Arabic: Tuqimu) the Torah, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord.
Are you going to keep denying this GL?
There were many books that the People of the Book were reading other than the Quran. They were told to judge by them .... What is so difficult to understand about this? Tell me, what is so difficult?
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Salam Good Logic
Are you aware that the Quran sanctions what was 'between the hands of the Children of Israel ' of Moses' books during the prophet Muhammad's ministry?
The current Bible is older than the Quran. The Council of Nicea and Bible was compiled in AD 325 that is even before Muhammad was born
I do not know Why you keep on arguing when clear verses are there that says otherwise to what you claim to be true.
Are you purposefully trying to play a game of semantics? The people of the book collectively call their books 'Bible'. What is wrong with that? The absence of the Word 'Bible' is not an issue at all, when clearly the books and their Arabic names are mentioned, Torah, Injeel, Zabur. Just because their adherents are not using these Arabic names to refer to their books does not mean that their books are not mentioned. It will not matter one bit, if in the future the Quran is given another name in another language. Why do you believe Allah is the God mentioned in Torah? The word Allah does not even appear in the Hebrew Bible. The name of God used in Torah is Yahweh. Pray do tell, then how and why do you believe it is the same God Allah? The name Yahweh is not mentioned in Quran but Allah says the God of the Torah is also Him. So, when the same Allah approves of the Torah (Bible, essentially the same book) present along with all the corruption ( additions, subtractions, introduction of unauthorized doctrines) between the hands of 7th century Arabs, as a source of guidance, what is your problem in accepting this? Please do not purposefully conflate things and confuse people with mere games of semantics.
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Peace Duster.
Are you saying to me GOD revealed all the bible?
Let be clear here:
GOD is consistent with "Follow/judge "by what is revealed from HIm only. NO words of men to be followed.
Are you then insisting that the bible contains the books of GOD only?
Let us have your evidence then?
Yes, GOD has revealed Torah, Injeel, Zaboor...etc. and is clearly saying to all of us to follow/judge by what GOD has sent down only.
Brother, we have to distinguish between "What GOD has revealed" and men s words:
http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/word-of-people-v-word-of-god/
GOD has left us this example:
13:17
He sends down water from the sky, causing the valleys to overflow, then the rapids produce abundant foam. Similarly, when they use fire to refine metals for their jewelry or equipment, foam is produced. God thus cites analogies for the truth and falsehood. As for the foam, it goes to waste, while that which benefits the people stays close to the ground. God thus cites the analogies.
أَنزَلَ مِنَ السَّماءِ ماءً فَسالَت أَودِيَةٌ بِقَدَرِها فَاحتَمَلَ السَّيلُ زَبَدًا رابِيًا وَمِمّا يوقِدونَ عَلَيهِ فِى النّارِ ابتِغاءَ حِليَةٍ أَو مَتٰعٍ زَبَدٌ مِثلُهُ كَذٰلِكَ يَضرِبُ اللَّهُ الحَقَّ وَالبٰطِلَ فَأَمَّا الزَّبَدُ فَيَذهَبُ جُفاءً وَأَمّا ما يَنفَعُ النّاسَ فَيَمكُثُ فِى الأَرضِ كَذٰلِكَ يَضرِبُ اللَّهُ الأَمثٰلَ
I am also amazed at your logic brother, you reject all hadith when it come to the deen, yet you say GOD is asking to follow/judge by all the "bible" even the parts that contradict GOD s system? Or have you not studied the bible?
GOD bless you.
Peace
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Shalom / peace Good logic...
Now I can see what makes you so uncomfortable and I also think that this will be troubling you ....
The dilemma for you ..... You think the Bible is corrupted ...yet in the Quran, it is referring to Books that were with the People of the Book. So what Books were they referred to??? You also know I think we have Bibles older than the prophet's ministry .... another conundrum for you .....
So rather than beating about the bush ... why don't you say you can't reconcile it??
What has hadith got to do with the Bible? The Quran is a guard over the Bible and spends many many many verses discussing their contents and beliefs... The 'hadith' that many reject its authority of came after the Quran... .But the Quran confirms the Bible and it says so many times .....
So where is your logic bro????
Now stop evading the issue .... WHAT ARE THE BOOKS that Allah asks the people of the book to go and stand firm on .... It certainly ain't the Quran ...What are they??? Remember we have complete Bibles before the prophet's ministry ... so what BOOKS is the Quran referring them to??? tell me and stop evading bro!!!
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Salam Good Logic
When did Duster or I say that we believe that there is no corruption in the Bible?
The Quran accepts that the Bible became corrupted, but that does not mean wholesale corruption. Where in the Quran does God say there was wholesale corruption? And why does Allah despite all this mention of corruption and addition to God's word by men, still ask the People of the Book to follow their 'corrupted' books? There were no original Bible or Torah with the Arabs at that time. This is a fact. These Arab Children of Israel were reading corrupted Bible but still God claims that they should follow what is with them, why is that? Why don't you accept this? Is it because Rashad Khalifa says otherwise?
Duster and I have given clear, explicit verses from the Quran, you do not want to accept, it is your prerogative. But, I am starting to think it is useless discussing concepts with you that are contrary to what Rashad Khalifa and his band of submitters preach and believe.
This is going to be my last post discussing this topic with you Brother, I really do not see this going anywhere.
God Bless
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Peace Nura.
1-Quote:
Are you aware that the Quran sanctions what was 'between the hands of the Children of Israel ' of Moses' books during the prophet Muhammad's ministry?
I am aware that Qoran sactions "What GOD has sent down"--GOD s words only!!! It does not sanction the falsehood part.
2-Quote:
The current Bible is older than the Quran. The Council of Nicea and Bible was compiled in AD 325 that is even before Muhammad was born
That is why it must be filtered-Truth from falsehood- Or the Counsil of Nicea was GOD inspired?
3- Quote:
I do not know Why you keep on arguing when clear verses are there that says otherwise to what you claim to be true.
All the clear verses say "What was revealed by GOD" only. GOD s words only. Have a good look/ponder on the verses again and see for yourself.
Thank you sister.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Shalom / peace GL....
PLEASE STOP evading the issue .... WHAT ARE THE BOOKS that Allah asks the people of the book to go and stand firm on .... It certainly ain't the Quran ...What are they??? Remember we have complete Bibles before the prophet's ministry ... so what BOOKS is the Quran referring them to??? tell me and stop evading bro!!!
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Peace Duster.
Since you know ,why don t you tell me ?
Qoran already tells both of us that the books were the ones revealed by GOD through the prophets.
I take it you are not going to bring me any verse/s from Qoran that confirms GOD was asking to follow /judge by the bible?
Thank you anyway brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Salam Good logic
Are you saying because of some corruptions the entire Bible became corrupted? and it is not possible to become guided by the Bible when the Quran says otherwise.
And even after corruption God asks 'Children of Israel' to follow their books. All this happened after the council of Nicea took place. Do you think God did not know about this? what is your issue with this when God still recognizes the Bible with all the corruptions and alterations? We have Bibles that are older than the Quran. All the alterations already took placee before the Quran was revealed and even after all this God recognizes the Bible. Why don't you? The Quran clearly asks them to go and read their 'corrupted' Bible present ' between their hands'.
The Quran is a guard over the Bible and it came after the Bible. The issue of hadith is superfluous and has nothing to do with anything. The hadiths came after the Quran. There is no other revelation that says it is a guard over hadith. Hadiths came after Quran. Quran is not a guard over the Hadiths.
Why am I even discussing this with you, when I presume you believe the Quran was also corrupted and two verses were added to the Quran just like Rashad Khalifa says.
Do you believe Quran was also corrupted? Answer this question with a Yes or No please.
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Peace Nura.
I am saying the bible contains both GOD s words and men s words. Qoran is the criterion.
I am also saying, GOD is consistent and is asking everyone ,all people of the book- Jews, Christians,Muslims..." to follow judge by what GOD has sent down". Only His words.
Hope that is clear.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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You did not answer my Question, do you believe the Quran has also suffered corruption. Yes or No? If you do not give an answer, I will take it as affirmative.
And if you believe that the Quran was also corrupted why do you not believe the Quran was fully corrupted, after all according to Rashad Khalifa, there was also addition to the Quran? Why does that not equal to wholesale corruption of the Quran in your mind? But some additions to the Bible mean wholesale corruption of Bible?
Because of the 19 theory?
You will never be able to reconcile the verses this way brother.
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I take it you are not going to bring me any verse/s from Qoran that confirms GOD was asking to follow /judge by the bible?
Shalom / peace ..
Don't beat about the bush GL! I bought you verses CLEAR where Allah refers the People of the Book back to their books ...
So I'm asking you again ...
PLEASE STOP evading the issue .... WHAT ARE THE BOOKS that Allah asks the people of the book to go and stand firm on .... It certainly ain't the Quran ...What are they??? Remember we have complete Bibles before the prophet's ministry ... so what BOOKS is the Quran referring them to??? tell me and stop evading bro!!!
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Peace Duster.
Stay on the subject of "What GOD has revealed only" .Read the posts again.
It is you who is changing the subject.
If you cannot bring me a verse/s from Qoran that confirm GOD is asking to follow/judge by the bible, then we can proceed.
Thank you brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Shalom / peace GL....
no no no no no no .. you ain't getting off the hook so lightly this time. I'm quite fed up of your refusal to accept clear verses.....
So - I showed you verses where the Quran refers the People of the Book to go back to their books.... Torah, Injeel and Zaboor and other revelations are mentioned ..... So if this is not the BIBLE as you say .... what are they .????
You are the one that is deliberately putting up smokescreens ... So answer the question please ....
IF THEY are not the Bible .... what are they???? What are those books because you don't accept the Quranic references to those previous books as being the BIBLE.... What are they? The Gita? the Vedas??? WHAT ARE THEY?
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Peace Nura.
If you want to discuss other topics ,open a different thread. Your question is off-topic.
Here, we are still discussing"What GOD has revealed" or all the bible.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Peace Duster.
Show me where I said Torah, Injeel, zaboor... are not part of the bible. I was discussing all of the bible.
You are making the wrong assumption,yet again.
The verses you showed me confirm what I said. i.e To follow/judge by "What GOD has revealed" only.
Do you still insist it is all of the bible?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Salam Good Logic
We already gave you verses where God asks them to follow their books. Just because the word 'Bible' does not appear in the Quran, means nothing. The books of Children of Israel are called Bible, that is a name they gave to their book. You have no grounds to deny clear verses from the Quran. As usual and this has happened many times on this forum you will not budge from your position, even after clear verses are given as proof to you. Sometimes I feel, you are here to only spread the teachings of Rashad Khalifa. Brother I have realized we have very different beliefs and approaches to the Quran. You believe in Rashad Khalifa and the 19 theory which I believe is totally unfounded. You are free to believe what you want and likewise I am also.
It is not off topic at all. You believe the Quran is corrupted and you are a submitter and follower of Rashad Khalifa. I do not believe the Quran is corrupted or any additions or subtraction to it took place. Your internal belief system is very much relevant when it comes to debating any topic with you.
But I am done discussing this with you, because we have very important fundamental differences in our approach to religion and Quran. We will never see eye to eye because of this difference.
God Bless brother.
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Peace Nura.
I say peace to you.
GOD bless you.
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Peace Duster.
Show me where I said Torah, Injeel, zaboor... are not part of the bible. I was discussing all of the bible.
You are making the wrong assumption,yet again.
The verses you showed me confirm what I said. i.e To follow/judge by "What GOD has revealed" only.
Do you still insist it is all of the bible?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Shalom / peace GL
Backtracking now are we GL????? I showed you clear verses where Allah asked the people of the book to judge by what had been revealed to them. They obviously had something with them ..... The bible had been canonised well before the Quran was revealed .. so what Books were they reading???
Also remember when you said this right at the start???
I do not see anywhere in Qoran where GOD is asking anyone to follow/judge by" the bible" .
So I showed you verses where they were told to go back to the Torah to judge ..... You can call it Bible or a collection of books or whatever.... The Torah is a collection of books....
So now ... I've shown you in the Quran verses where people of the book are told to judge by their books - DO YOU ACCEPT THIS????
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Brother Good Logic
I have enjoyed our discussions before, that is why I am still posting, and I found a lot of your previous posts helpful brother. I would like to thank you for them, because honestly I learned from your posts too.
Why do you think Muhammad says this?
28:49
"Say (to them, O Muhammad): Then bring a Book from the presence of God which is a BETTER GUIDE (ahda) than BOTH OF THEM (minhuma) that I may follow it (attabi'hu) if you are truthful (sadiqeen)"
Why does Muhammad mention a 'corrupted' book along with the Quran as a guide and suggest that there are no better guides than this two ( Bible and Quran)? The Torah is in the Old testament, the five books of Moses, brother, everyone knows that. God mentions both the Quran and the books of the Children of Israel as guides. Why mention both, when only one book is acceptable to God?
Peace and God Bless Brother
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Peace Duster.
The bible we have today is a mixture of books. GOD s words and men s words
I have always maintained that GOD asked the people of the book to follow/judge by "What GOD has revealed" in it.not all of the bible.
SO, where is the backtracking?
The bible we have today and mohammed had in his time contains GOD s words and men s words. The parts that are GOD s words is what GOD is asking the people of the book to follow/judge by.
I have been consistent with this theme throughout my posts.
GOD chooses His words carefully and precisely.
Thank you brother.
GOD bless you
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The parts that are GOD s words is what GOD is asking the people of the book to follow/judge by.
Shalom / peace .... The parts from what? What are these parts of? What parts are the People of the Book meant to judge by? If it is not the Bible, then what is it?
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Peace Duster.
You follow judge by the bible if you wish. My answer to you is this:
The parts that "GOD has revealed".
Those who study the bible and are sincere, GOD will guide them to His words.
You me and everyone else,need to study/ponder GOD s scriptures . GOD Alone is the guide.
Here is the criteria :
1. RATIONAL TEACHINGS: Since God bestowed reason and intellect on mankind, it is our duty to use it to distinguish truth from falsehood. True undistorted revelation from God must be rational and can be reasoned out by all unbiased minds.
2. PERFECTION: Since God is all perfect, His revelation must be perfect and accurate, free from mistakes, omissions, interpolations and multiplicity of versions. It should be free from contradictions in its narration.
3. NO MYTHS OR SUPERSTITIONS: True revelation from God is free from myths or superstitions that degrade the dignity of God or man.
4. SCIENTIFIC: Since God is the Creator of all knowledge, true revelation is scientific and can with stand the challenge of science at all times.
5. PROPHECY: God is the Knower of the past, present and future. Thus His word of prophecies in His revelation will be fulfilled as prophesied.
6. INIMITABLE BY MAN: True revelation from God is infallible and cannot be imitated by man. God’s true revelation is a Living miracle, an open Book challenging all mankind to see and prove for themselves.
The checking/confirming is yours.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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1. RATIONAL TEACHINGS: Since God bestowed reason and intellect on mankind, it is our duty to use it to distinguish truth from falsehood. True undistorted revelation from God must be rational and can be reasoned out by all unbiased minds.
2. PERFECTION: Since God is all perfect, His revelation must be perfect and accurate, free from mistakes, omissions, interpolations and multiplicity of versions. It should be free from contradictions in its narration.
3. NO MYTHS OR SUPERSTITIONS: True revelation from God is free from myths or superstitions that degrade the dignity of God or man.
4. SCIENTIFIC: Since God is the Creator of all knowledge, true revelation is scientific and can with stand the challenge of science at all times.
5. PROPHECY: God is the Knower of the past, present and future. Thus His word of prophecies in His revelation will be fulfilled as prophesied.
6. INIMITABLE BY MAN: True revelation from God is infallible and cannot be imitated by man. God’s true revelation is a Living miracle, an open Book challenging all mankind to see and prove for themselves.
Shalom / peace ... if you are going to quote large copy paste texts from other's works ... can you at least have the decency to share the reference??????
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=az_KOCYY6GQC&pg=PA25&lpg=PA25&dq=Since+God+bestowed+reason+and+intellect+on+mankind,+it+is+our+duty+to+use+it+to+distinguish+truth+from+falsehood.+True+undistorted+revelation+from+God+must+be+rational+and+can+be+reasoned+out+by+all+unbiased+minds.&source=bl&ots=2kSGoEoARL&sig=MscYFsaZLi9SaxZVxbniL-hDZro&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi00Zflx_bPAhWJAMAKHSsMCokQ6AEIIjAB#v=onepage&q=Since%20God%20bestowed%20reason%20and%20intellect%20on%20mankind%2C%20it%20is%20our%20duty%20to%20use%20it%20to%20distinguish%20truth%20from%20falsehood.%20True%20undistorted%20revelation%20from%20God%20must%20be%20rational%20and%20can%20be%20reasoned%20out%20by%20all%20unbiased%20minds.&f=false
You still haven't answered the question ... which parts is the Quran taking about??? What Books were with them that they had to find 'parts' from????? Why don't you just answer the question rather than evading it???
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Peace Duster.
May be this is clearer to you:
The parts that GOD has sent down. ,for example what GOD sent to Moses , David,Solomon and the prophets to beni Israeel, and what was sent to Jesus. Yes ,GOD s words can be found in the bible.
However other books can also be found in the bible,.
What GOD has revealed is also confirmed in Qoran. Since you believe Qoran, check for yourself. All the verses you mentioned have" what GOD has revealed or "What GOD has sent down" to emphasise the point that "Only GOD s words " are to be followed/judged by"
Anyway, I am repeating myself, If you do not get my point, show me otherwise from Qoran.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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May be this is clearer to you:
The parts that GOD has sent down. ,for example what GOD sent to Moses , David,Solomon and the prophets to beni Israeel, and what was sent to Jesus. Yes ,GOD s words can be found in the bible.
However other books can also be found in the bible,.
So are you now admitting that the Quran referred the people of the Book to the Bible they had with them to source information, even if it is some parts??
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Peace Duster.
You are not reading my posts.
I said all along the bible contains GOD s words and men s words.
May be you ought to read my posts again. You are not making sense or may be you run out of things to say to me.Or does this mean you are admitting that the bible contains men s words also?
Brother, shall I repeat myself once more:
GOD has asked the people of the book to follow/judge by His words only.
Thank you.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Peace Duster.
You are not reading my posts.
I said all along the bible contains GOD s words and men s words.
May be you ought to read my posts again. You are not making sense or may be you run out of things to say to me.Or does this mean you are admitting that the bible contains men s words also?
Brother, shall I repeat myself once more:
GOD has asked the people of the book to follow/judge by His words only.
Thank you.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
I find your posts are pathetic and disingenuous. GL. You are the one that has not been listening. You have been cornered and you have tried to wiggle out. Pathetic in my view.
Simple verses and you deny them. This all started with you not willing to accept that the Quran refers people of the Book to judge by other than the Quran with clear references to Biblical scriptures .......you've tried to do symantic twisting but it has not worked. Whether it was a waste of time.....I'll let other readers decide...
Peace out !
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Peace duster.
You say,quote:
Simple verses and you deny them. This all started with you not willing to accept that the Quran refers people of the Book to judge by other than the Quran with clear references to Biblical scriptures .......you've tried to do symantic twisting but it has not worked. Whether it was a waste of time.....I'll let other readers decide...
The simple verses of Qoran have clear references to "What GOD has revealed" only in what you call those biblical scriptures.
Brother we discussed this same issue here:
Peace Duster.
GOD is clear in all those verses ,. Each of the verse or context highlights "What GOD has revealed" . So GOD is consistent in all His scripture . To follow only what GOD has revealed. i.e The words of GOD.
If you are saying to me the "bible" we have contains only the words of GOD, then I disagree with you. The same with the books that existed when Mohammed was sent. they had GOD s words and men s words in them. GOD is saying to them "Follow His words only"!.
Peace relearning;
5:68 has added " and all the revelations that come to you from your Lord"- Only GOD s words-.
5:43,...46
GOD is again confirming "The Torah that had come before Jesus" and "We sent him the Gospel" ...Both GOD s words only.
5:47 makes it clear- Judge by what GOD has revealed" GOD s words only.
Hope you can see GOD s consistency clearer now.
GOD knows human and jinn devils will write their own words and claim it is from GOD!!!!
So when it comes to the "bible" Qoran confirms ( GOD s words) and rejects the rest. Same as what was asked from people of the book at the time of Mohammed.
Thank you .
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Shalom / peace GL
My point is simple which you are repeatedly missing. You have admitted that the Bible contains some words of God......so, when the Quran refers them back to their books......do you admit then they are asked to judge by something other than the Quran?????
Simple yes or no!!!!!
What is wrong with you that you won't answer a simple question....?.
For example the reference to the Torah. The children of israel are asked to judge by this.....do you accept that this is something other than the Quran??
....simple question!!!
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Salaam,
Thanks Duster, GL and everyone who gave me links and resources to quench my thirst. And thanks to br. Zack from earlier posts. I've started reading OT myself :D and that means Qs for the people familiar with the scriptures :P
Sister Nura,
I see you are not in disagreement with my understanding as you're expressing between the lines what I call qualifications to 2:62 and 5:69 :D
Thanks,
~ Student
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Peace Duster.
No, we are not discussing whether the bible contains GOD s words, I have already answered this. I have already said there is both GOD s words and men s word in the present bible.
We are discussing whether GOD is asking them to judge by "the bible that exists now as a whole". I am saying GOD is not doing that.
GOD is clear, precise and deliberate. He is asking them to follow/judge by only what "He revealed" in it.
I am clear in what I am saying.
Now, are you saying GOD is asking them to judge by everything that is in the bible as we have it?
If you are, then I disagree with you.
GOD bless you.
Peace.