QM Forum
The Quran => General Discussions => Topic started by: sharon on January 16, 2017, 10:48:20 AM
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Assalam alikum my by brothers and sisters I am a bit confused by a verse and a arabic word in the verse. The confused thing I have with the verse is 1. Is it saying what thamud used to do or is it saying what they have done in the valley what the Arabs could see because 2. If yes then it makes it sound like there buildings were still standing tall with nothing wrong with it but we can't see them today and 3. My problem is many translations don't use the al before rocks because if you put it there it make it sound like specific rocks you can see but when no al then it makes it sound like genral rocks 4.why do some words have the al there when you don't need it or it would make the verse sound weird like verse 2:36 it says satan but in arabic it says al satan the satan but why have that jazzakkallah
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Also I was just wondering when it says carve out rocks in verse 89:9 does rocks here means the mountions or just rocks bolders means is this verse saying just talking about there homes in the mountions or is it talking about there palaces on the plain or bot what does this verse mean does it just mean they used to use rocks to make the houses on the plains and mountions
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Technically what I am asking is this part of the verse (who carve out the rocks in the valley) is this bit of the verse speaking in the present tense like saying what they have done that you can see or is it speaking in the past tense what they used too do what you can't see and 2. When it says the rocks is it talking about specific rocks what you can see or genral rocks you can't see in the Arabs time jazzakkallah and when it says rocks is it talking about mountains or small mountains like large bolders or normal bolders jazzakkallah
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Or is the verse just a title given to the like example Henry the 8th the killer
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sSalam,
here is a link which might help you
http://corpus.quran.com/concept.jsp?id=thamud
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past-tense construct appears all over the Qur'an while the English translations use the present tense and in this case it is pasttense hum khafu-they carved out although it looks also like the imperative form but contextualy it doesnt make sense
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Assalam alikum deliverance I sort of got what you were saying but could you further elaborate what you mean jazzakkallah are you saying that part of the verse (who carved out the rocks in the valley) (allatheena jaboo alssakhra bialwadi) بِالْوَادِ وَثَمُودَ الَّذِينَ جَابُوا الصَّخْرَ is speaking in the past tense to the prophet and not rocks he could see but what they used to do is that what you are saying jazzakkallah and if yes can you explain to me how it does because I don't know arabic very do if you could help that would be great
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Because I'm a bit stuck on this verse jazzakkallah
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Salam Sharon,
This is my understandig of the Vers,it is a Message to the People who do not believe in the allmightiness of god.Then he advises them go through the land and search for ruins of the egytians ,Ad or Thamud who were mighty in power but where destroyed by god .
I hope this helped
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So does 89:7 mean the Arabs could see these lofty pillars or is the verse just saying what they did have like is 89:9 saying the Arabs could see these carved rocks or is the verse saying what they used too do
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yes ,they could see them even today you can visit these ruins in this in the northern part of arabia .The most popular Building is in Petra in scientifically they are called Nabateans
Here is a discussion similar to this
Assalam alikum I was just wondering these 2 verses sound like they contradict each other because 28:58 says some used them for a little while 22:45 says no one used them and does 27:52 say we can see there houses and is this say thamud houses are the ones in midian al saleh because that is wrong because the nabatean empire built them and they are not houses they are tombs
In my opinion Ad Thamud and Nabatean are different Names for one and the same People like u have for a hebrew People Punic=Cartagene=Philistan
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assalamu alaikum guys
To me, phrases like "did you not see?" or "do you not see?" in the Quran do not always mean "literal" seeing. In some places, if not all, this phrase can also mean "do you not consider ?" or "did they not consider / realize" ?
Like in 71:15: "Do you not consider how Allah has created seven heavens in layers ? "
or maybe in 30:37: "Do they not see that Allah extends provision for whom He wills and restricts [it]? Indeed, in that are signs for a people who believe. "
maybe 46:33: "Do they not see that Allah , who created the heavens and earth and did not fail in their creation, is able to give life to the dead? Yes. Indeed, He is over all things competent."
So even if the Arabs did not see the ruins of those people, still no problem! This is my opinion on the subject. Only ALLAH (swt) knows the true meaning of ayat. May HE guide us to the right way.
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Sorry thats the correct Name
Carthaginian=Phoenicians=Punic
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Salam Ilker,
"To me, phrases like "did you not see?" or "do you not see?" in the Quran do not always mean "literal" seeing. In some places, if not all, this phrase can also mean "do you not consider ?" or "did they not consider / realize" ? "
I also think so it is like the answer of someone you are talking with in stead of" I understand " he is saying "i see"
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Thanks but those buildings were not built by thamud they were built by the nabteons and the nabateans can't be thamud or ad because the nabatean came about 300 bc the quran says thamud and AD came way before abraham and moses what I mean is these parts of the verses 89:9 (who carved out the rocks in the valley) and 89:7 (iram owners of the lofty pillars) are these part of the verses speaking in the present tense or past just these verses if you were to only read theses verse 89:6-9 are these part of the verses in past tense or present
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Plus also the buildings in mada'in saleh are tombs not houses
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Does rocks in that verse mean mountains or just rocks to make there palaces or does it mean mountains
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New researches came to the conclusion ,the Nabateans didnt take a respecful distance to the deaths-the lived between them.Tombs were nearby to the dwellings.In some cases the People lived in a rock earthgrounded whereas tombs were carved outof the Stone at the Roof
Hijjr is translated as rock or Stone and i think there was a discussion about AT-Tur and Jabal(Mountain) in the Forum.But here is an article of Joseph http://quransmessage.com/articles/tur%20FM3.htm
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So are you saying these tombs have nothing to do with the nabateans but the trouble is these tombs like brand new and thamud has to come at least 7 thousand bc because if noah nation was the first to commit shirk the they have to come before 9500 bc because there is proof of a nation committing shirk 9500 bc the gobekli temple turkey and if they were gone or destroyed at 7000 bc then thamud has to be before that because they were close to noah nation
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Peace Sharon,
Sorry for not beeing clear,i just wrote that these tombs where also used by the Nabateans side by side with their houses .
The Nabatean came according of greek Romans sources at the time of the 5th centurary BC in that area .
If the Thamud are in that timeline you have mentioned is possible but i do not have any info on that .About Gobek tebli i just have few Information and i only can speculate about the People who might build that temple as it is in Anatolia i might be build by decendants of Japhet if im not wrong whereas the Nabateans are decendants of Sem .
how do you came to put Thamud at 7000bc?
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Assalam alikum so what you are saying is that the nabateans built over the tombs meaning they renovate the thamud buildings but originally they were thamud is that right and if yes well I'm fine with that but that doesn't mean the thamud carved those tombs because the nabateans and that would not explain 89:9 because it says thamud carved thanks where I got 7000 bc from is in the quran it says that thamud and AD were very close to noah and that gobekli temple that place nation was destroyed or abandoned 7000bc so if noah nation was the first to commit shirk and that nation built idiols and temple 9500bc then if noah nation first commit shirk about 10 thousand bc just before they committed shirk so noah nation would of be destroyed 9 to 8 thousand bc and according to scholars the next first nation to be destroyed after noah was ad then thamud and as the quran said there were many nations in between thamud and abraham so if noah came then then ad and thamud has to be close to them and that's were I get the 7000 bc from because noah nation must of committed shirk at 10 thousand bc and destroyed 9-8 thousand bc and then came ad and thamud so the most we can say is thamud was destroyed 6-5 thousand bc but that is the least because also see there was a nation called ad I'm oman on the near the sea and they started in 3 thousand bc but they were gone by 300 bc so they can't be the ad from the quran so the ad from the quran has to come before that and thamud jazzakkallah
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Dear Sharon ,
This is what i have found to be quiet right in the the timeline for the thamud =nabateans(?).There is Picture of thamudic Houses
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Thamud
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Yes but like I said thamud can't be the nabteons because nabateans came 400 bc and gone 100 ad that would mean that they were destroyed 100 ad but there were no prophets between jesus and muhammad and like I said the quran clearly says that thamud came before moses and moses came 1300 bc and the nabateans didn't exsist then but like I said I have no problem saying that thamud oraganly built those buildings but they were ruined then thousands of years later the nabateans came did it up regenerated it from the out and built there graves inside what was already built by thamud thousand of years before the nabateans but my problem is that 89:9 says thamud carved the rocks but they didn't carve the outside at the time of the prophet like now because the outside was redone by the nabteons so how to we explain what 89:9 mean is it past tense or present jazzakkallah
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The verse what say thamud came way before moses is 40:28-30 and 20:49-52
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Sharon,
Please do not ask the same questions across different threads. We have already merged many of your topics. However, you must stop this please.
This topic is now covered in the following thread:
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2234
Thanks!