QM Forum
The Quran => General Discussions => Topic started by: Amira on March 27, 2017, 09:43:39 AM
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Salam everyone. So I was wondering what your opinions are, from a Quranic point of view, on the following issues:
1. I believe the Islamic conception of human rights is derived from the idea of khilafah on earth. All rights humans are entitled to would stem from this, such as the right to free agency of belief (assuming one is not harming others) and the right to education. From this, it seems that in an Islamic state, acts that harm others would be federally punishable whereas private sins would not be.
For example in the case of adultery, punishment only occurs if 4 witnesses are obtained. Adultery is a private sin and normally doesn't have witnesses, so if 4 witnesses are actually found, it indicates that the sin was publicized and affects society as a whole. Therefore it is punishable by state authorities.
Would things like drinking alcohol in private be punishable by the state according to this reasoning? (i.e. it's possible that drinking in private wouldn't warrant punishment unless the individual goes drunk driving and runs over someone, thus harming them and incurring consequences)
2. Someone recently brought up the idea that in an Islamic state, public proselytizing of other religions (Christianity, atheism) would be banned. This is based on the premise that since an Islamic state is built on the fundamentals of Islam, publicly promoting other beliefs/falsehoods (even peacefully) constitutes "chaos" and should be met with punishments/fines.
I believe this is invalid because freedom of religious expression is protected in the Quran as long as one refrains from attempting to forcefully convert others. So public proselytizing would not be banned unless it is violent.
This is complicated, but I hope it makes sense. Opinions? :)
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Crimes can only be punished if they cause corruption in society, however, a crime does not have to affect others in order to corrupt society, just transgress against God's commands.
Regards
wanderer
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Crimes can only be punished if they cause corruption in society, however, a crime does not have to affect others in order to corrupt society, just transgress against God's commands.
Regards
wanderer
Shalom / peace ... Good answer I think .... 8)
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I dont think freedom of belief is protected by quran. Because idolators are scolded and asked to believe in one God or to leave the macca. That means islam is not allowing idolatry in society. Throughout the history ,although it may seem wrong to you, in islamic states other beliefs' open propoganda is forbidden as i know.
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Asalamu Alykum
Dear relearning
You said
I dont think freedom of belief is protected by quran. Because idolators are scolded and asked to believe in one God or to leave the macca. That means islam is not allowing idolatry in society.
I would have to respectfully disagree with this statement.
From the Quran one realizes that God had wanted to impart or send a message to people in peace by using His messenger. The message was to stop worshipping idols and to welcome them to the religion of Islam. Of course some people of the Book who were present among the polytheists were already practicing Islam and some were not.
The messenger of God was not to force them in accepting the religion that was being presented to them. This can be verified by many verses. Here is a couple examples
18:29 And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve." Indeed, We have prepared for the wrongdoers a fire whose walls will surround them. And if they call for relief, they will be relieved with water like murky oil, which scalds [their] faces. Wretched is the drink, and evil is the resting place.
2:256 There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.
God had clearly gave the Prophet a duty to convey the message. He was not asked to do it in violence or by force.
This conveyance of the message was seen by some polytheists and some of those who claimed to be of the people of the Book but did not follow their message in truth as a transgression even though they understood it was the truth from God. It was the people who did not allow people to choose God's religion and did not allow for freedom of religion.
Prophet Mohammad was then driven out of his home land for simply revealing new knowledge from God that was clear.
9:40 If ye help him not, still Allah helped him when those who disbelieve drove him forth, the second of two; when they two were in the cave, when he said unto his comrade: Grieve not. Lo! Allah is with us. Then Allah caused His peace of reassurance to descend upon him and supported him with hosts ye cannot see, and made the word of those who disbelieved the nethermost, while Allah's Word it was that became the uppermost. Allah is Mighty, Wise.
You can see how terrified the one who was with the messenger. It was God who sent tranquility upon him and aided them.
It was by the grace and mercy of God that He had checked or switched over the power from one people(polytheists) to another(believers) and the rules and laws of those who believe were then implemented.
The believers did not fight everyone who was a polytheist. They were only to fight those who fought them. It is clear from the Quran that freedom of religion is allowed.
4:94 O ye who believe! When ye go forth (to fight) in the way of Allah, be careful to discriminate, and say not unto one who offereth you peace: "Thou art not a believer," seeking the chance profits of this life (so that ye may despoil him). With Allah are plenteous spoils. Even thus (as he now is) were ye before; but Allah hath since then been gracious unto you. Therefore take care to discriminate. Allah is ever Informed of what ye do.
The believers did allow idolatry under the Islamic Law. However those polytheists who fought them were different than those who did not. Punishing polytheism alone was not the role of humans. It was something to be judged by God in the hereafter.
88:21-26
So remind, [O Muhammad]; you are only a reminder.
You are not over them a controller.
However, he who turns away and disbelieves -
Then Allah will punish him with the greatest punishment.
Indeed, to Us is their return.
Then indeed, upon Us is their account.
You also said
Throughout the history ,although it may seem wrong to you, in islamic states other beliefs' open propoganda is forbidden as i know.
History and Islamic states of the past or the present should never be seen as complete evidence of the true Islam especially when the Quran goes clearly against them.
Those are my thoughts
Peace :)
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peace Amira,
This article lists all punishable crimes in Quran:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-crime-punishment-expiation.html
You will note that all punishable crimes are those that affect others/society.
Also, Re: freedom of belief/expression
http://misconceptions-about-islam.com/freedom-speech-islam.htm
http://misconceptions-about-islam.com/no-freedom-of-religion.htm
You will note that examples of things said that were untrue/mocking and no mention of a ban, and also we are encouraged to debate with them in the best manner, clearly implying there would be an opposing side in the debate which would likely hold contrary views to believers.
peace Hamzeh,
Why do you constantly refer to islam with a capital "I"? Seems odd.
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Peace to you to Wakas
Not to sure. Why is there something wrong with capitalizing names of religions? I capitalize also other religions like Christianity and Judism when I remember.
I dont really know much about grammer and English literature but I always thought names should be capitalized.
Peace
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Peace Wakas
I also googled it and seems like there is nothing wrong with capitalizing Islam.
I find it odd you have actually asked that question as well. Is it that big of a deal?
"Proper nouns are always capitalized, whether they refer to visible persons (Mr. Allen), historic personages (Moses, Mohammed), mythic figures (Zeus), or deity (Allah, God, Holy Spirit). Proper nouns that refer to religions are also capitalized. Thus, we get: Christianity, Judaism, Islam.
Religious Capitalization - Curtis Allen's Ashland University English ...[1]
Peace
[1] http://www.allenenglish.me/religious-capitalization.html
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Wakas: Thank you for the pages. I'm adding that to my reference list.
I'm pretty sure Islam is a proper noun.
I agree with Hamzeh's answer to Relearning--peacefully preaching other religions wouldn't be banned.
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Would you please then give some examples of quran encouraging idolators continue peacefully their practising of both worshipping idols and spread it to other people if they willingly choose it. How would you consider a muslim in an islamic society converting to idolatry and then go on as if nothing happened in his/her life. if you accept idolators peacefully spread their religion and practising worshipping idols in islamic society you must also be prepared the consequences of it some muslim born people may at the end turn to them. So would it be very ok with you?
thanks.
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Peace relearning.
When you say,quote:
you consider a muslim in an islamic society converting to idolatry and then go on as if nothing happened in his/her life. if you accept idolators peacefully spread their religion and practising worshipping idols in islamic society you must also be prepared the consequences of it some muslim born people may at the end turn to them. So would it be very ok with you?
Are you assuming "in an islamic society" there is no idolworship?
In that case which of the many denominations( Sunni,Shiia,Ahmadi,Sufi,Qoran centric,Submitter....etc) is the right "Islam"?
Although there are many different religions and denominations, a "true Muslim to GOD" can exist in all of them. Why not?
Also, how can one be born a "Muslim" from just a selected few? Is that fair?
One is born to go through the test of choosing to be a "Muslim" or not.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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thanks your kindly reply. my question in its own frame points a dilemma in an islamic society. your points are a different subject. I say for example would you be please that in an islamic society (is not it an aim for believers by the way) will you or other muslims be very ok with idolators to spread their religion and practise it. That is the question. you may answer yes am pleased with it or no i am not.
i am not assuming there is no idolworship in an islamic society. But i am not relating any sect to idolworship it seems unfair to me. But your points distracts my frame of question to another level dear friend. i also believe someone without any religion can have a good relationship with god. But it is different than what i ask here. I dont believe of being priviledged by born in anyway. bu simply please answer my question thanks.
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Sorry relearning,that question is misleading. The" islamic society" is itself a made up religion.
As a believer, I may disagree with others, but I can only invite to GOD s way, I cannot control/allow or otherwise people s to have choices.
There is no compulsion in "True Islam".
Hope that clarifies the issue with your question.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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when reading quran i got the feeling that it aims to create an islamic society. It is purpose is not to create individuals not related each other moving freely by their own. Even at the time of migration muslims who didnt choose to migrate are scolded in quran. So i am not sharing your view that islamic society is a made up religion.
but thanks for sharing your views.
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Peace relearning.
I was talking about the "islamic society " of today. Their religion is not the religion of the Qoran.
Do you think today s "islamic society" is the same "islamic society"that Qoran gives you the feeling about?
I am sorry brother, I do not share your view either.The majority of those who claim to be "Muslims" are not following Qoran. They are following a "made up religion".
So how can they preach to other made up religions ?You will have the blind trying to guide another blind!
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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peace Hamzeh, all,
Re: capitalising "I" in islam
It is and it isn't a big deal. You seem like an intelligent brother hence I was surprised at your usage, that's all. Let me explain...
"Islam" with a capital "I" is a title (or proper noun) - however that is NOT its primary signification.
It is primarily an ordinary Arabic noun/word with a meaning (~submission/peacemaking), just like thousands of other ordinary Arabic nouns.
Before Al Quran was revealed all the words used in it already existed, including "islam". There is nothing special about the word "islam", thus does not require capitalisation.
Unfortunately, it has become common practice to give ordinary Arabic words special religious significance and capitalise them into titles, e.g. islam, muslim.
islam is an ordinary word meaning peacemaking/submission, and it is an inclusive word that can encompass various monotheists under its banner.
Islam is the title of a religion, which may or may not reflect the original word meaning, and commonly refers to an exclusive religion.
This capitalisation of islam/muslim can lead to a few issues:
it helps conceal the original meaning of the word
it leads to the contradictory statement that one be Muslim but not muslim
Potentially conflicts with The Quran's universal message, e.g. many messengers used the equivalent word to "muslim" in their own language prior to Quran [2:128, 2:131, 3:67, 3:52, 5:111, 10:72]. Think about whatever word they used in their own languages - would you also class these as special words requiring capitals? The meaning of the word is important, i.e. do you embody the meaning of the word?.
Also, it implies other monotheists cannot be muslim when they could be classed as such according to its original Arabic meaning, which makes sense with various verses, e.g. 2:62.
Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear upon them, nor shall they grieve. [2:62]
In other words, it doesn't matter what one labels themselves as, labels/titles are not important, it's what you believe in and what you do is important.
Background:
http://www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/more.htm
https://free-minds.org/mumins
The only counter-argument to this is 22:78, but this is fine as long as one appreciates its primary signification is in its meaning not as a title.
Again, I don't consider it a big deal as long as one appreciates in your usage it's bit of a misnomer.
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Interesting note about capitalization, but let's not deviate from the topic at hand.
From what I can tell, if idolaters peacefully spread their religion and cause Muslims to convert, that's said Muslims' problem, and would not be considered an affair requiring the intervention of state authority.
If peaceful dialogue is encouraged in the Quran, it seems that public religious proselytizing would be acceptable. If truth stands clear from error then there's no need for the state to prevent ideological expression.
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amira i personally may support your view but could you bring some ayats to support that both muslims and pagan can live peacefully both spreading their religion from quran.
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" If truth stands clear from error then there's no need for the state to prevent ideological expression." i have an objection to this. For example in internet can a state allow some news group to spread fake and false news although it is true that truth stands clear from error these kind of spreading erroneous news or information would not be tolerated even within secular states. so if one god is truth and paganism is error and deserves punishment then i dont believe (personally may support) an islamic country would allow this based on quran teachings which is threatining idolatry.
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9:28 O you who have believed, indeed the polytheists are unclean, so let them not approach al-Masjid al-Haram after this, their [final] year. And if you fear privation, Allah will enrich you from His bounty if He wills. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Wise.
9:29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.
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Asalamu Alykum
Dear Good logic
I agree with relearning statement and that you have confused the question a bit.
"i am not assuming there is no idolworship in an islamic society. But i am not relating any sect to idolworship it seems unfair to me. But your points distracts my frame of question to another level dear friend.
Dear relearning
I agree with Amira in her statement
"From what I can tell, if idolaters peacefully spread their religion and cause Muslims to convert, that's said Muslims' problem, and would not be considered an affair requiring the intervention of state authority.
If peaceful dialogue is encouraged in the Quran, it seems that public religious proselytizing would be acceptable. If truth stands clear from error then there's no need for the state to prevent ideological expression."
You had asked
amira i personally may support your view but could you bring some ayats to support that both muslims and pagan can live peacefully both spreading their religion from quran.
In my first post on this thread I had quoted some verses from the Quran
18:29 And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve." Indeed, We have prepared for the wrongdoers a fire whose walls will surround them. And if they call for relief, they will be relieved with water like murky oil, which scalds [their] faces. Wretched is the drink, and evil is the resting place.
2:256 There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.
What can you grasp from these verses dear relearning? Is God not telling that whoever does not want to believe then let him disbelieve? It certainly does. Also no compulsion in religion. This is clear. How many people want to join the unbelievers that is up to them. Even in a country that chooses to uphold an Islamic law should not enforce religion. However any dangerous ideology or and unjust religion that would cause corruption and mischief in the land should not be tolerated. Even today many western countries would not tolerate this while giving freedom of religion to a point.
Please keep in mind that whenever there is a transformation from one successors to another successors in a land, they are the rulers of the land. They can draw up their own constitution and implement their own rules. This has been the way the world works.
Had it not been for the grace and mercy of the Lord, the weak would always be weak and the strong will always be strong even if they were evil. But it is God who replaces by His will.
God does check one group of people for others when He wants.
22:40 (They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right,- (for no cause) except that they say, "our Lord is Allah". Did not Allah check one set of people by means of another, there would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure. Allah will certainly aid those who aid his (cause);- for verily Allah is full of Strength, Exalted in Might, (able to enforce His Will).
When prophet Muhammad and the believers became the successors in the land, the were expected to enjoin in God's ways. God's ways can be extracted from the Quran. One will notice that no compulsion in religion is to be enforced. One also will realize that there is laws that apply to the believers and the non-believers. God's laws actually give freedom of religion, but they do not give freedom to cause injustices.
Verse 9:28-29 which you quoted seem to have been revealed now at the point where the muslims are gaining power and control. Those that do not believe in God and the Day of Judgement and those that do not abide by the new laws of the land which are the things God has forbid by His messenger and from the people of the Book who do not follow their religion correctly these were to be fought against until they submit to the law of the land and accept and pay the penalties. They should live now under the new constitution while they still may belief in whatever they want in peace.
The law of the land gives freedom of religion. The law of the land also forbids injustices and certain things that are for society.
Please note that fighting in self defense had made them victorious by God's will (9:40). If you noted the verses in the beginning of the chapter 9:4-6 fighting was only against those who broke treaties. Those who did not break treaties were to be taken into security. There is a transformation in society at this point. But by no mean there is no compulsion in religion.
88:21-26 also shows that ones belief is not to be dictated or forced. This is something God will judge and handle.
88:21-26
So remind, [O Muhammad]; you are only a reminder.
You are not over them a controller.
However, he who turns away and disbelieves -
Then Allah will punish him with the greatest punishment.
Indeed, to Us is their return.
Then indeed, upon Us is their account.
Peace
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Peace Hamzeh.
Thank you for your views.
My concern is "Islam" as a state of mind and being towards GOD, It has become a "religion" to most and there is a big misunderstanding among today s generation about "Islam".
What we call "islamic state" is also a big misconception .
We simply cannot know the inner thought of different individuals,hence we can only speculate who is a "muslim to GOD" .
Had relearning put the question to involve "believers" and disbelievers" ,that would have made sense in view of Qoran..
GOD bless you.
Peace.