QM Forum
The Quran => Women => Topic started by: Sleepysoul on November 06, 2017, 06:52:02 AM
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Salam,
Sometimes I feel like I go back to doubting whether women really are given as much importance as men in Islam. I know this topic is very popular and some people would probably be annoyed about hearing it again and again but it's a very important one. I guess not many men would understand what it feels like.
Recently someone asked me what I would say about the "one man, two women" witness thing and I honestly felt kind of.. tired about having to answer a question I'm not too sure how to..
Sometimes it does feel like having to keep defending Islam.. maybe this is a part of our test.
Then there are issues such as polygamy, the purpose and "wisdom" of which I just don't understand.
Then there are some verses that confuse me somewhat:
3:14 Beautified for people is the love of that which they desire - of women and sons, heaped-up sums of gold and silver, fine branded horses, and cattle and tilled land. That is the enjoyment of worldly life, but Allah has with Him the best return.
One thing that really bothers me is how so many Muslim men don't acknowledge that women also have desires. They also find men attractive. They also have to protect themselves from sin and distraction. It's as if the focus is often on men and how to fix their overly aggressive "hormones". By covering women up, by marrying several women, slaves, promises of "hoories" etc..
And:
Then, has your Lord chosen you for [having] sons and taken from among the angels daughters? Indeed, you say a grave saying. - 40:17.
There are a few similar verses. Sons are not better than daughters..
And women desire men too..
Of course I'm not saying that Allah is denying any of this. Astaghfirullah. Maybe it's just a lack of understanding on my part. I hope Allah guides me and everyone going through similar.
It's also probably the corruption that men have caused that makes me and many others think this way, hoors, multiple wives just for lust, domestic abuse etc..
Sigh.
It'd be nice if a few could talk to me, perhaps through pm to maybe discuss things.
Perhaps it's normal to have ups and downs.
May Allah forgive me if I said something wrong.
Salam.
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Dear Sleepysoul
Sometimes I feel like I go back to doubting whether women really are given as much importance as men in Islam
I think Its is very important to acknowledge the Quranic principles that states that Men and Women are spiritually equal. Although they may have different roles and responsibilities in this life, ultimately in the hereafter (Which what really matters in the end) no soul will be wronged because of its Gender. And all souls will get what ever they desire in Paradise.
33:35
"Indeed the Muslim men and the Muslim women, and the believing men and the believing women, and the obedient men and the obedient women, and the truthful men and the truthful women, and the patient men and the patient women, and the humble men and the humble women, and the men who give charity and the women who give charity, and the men who fast and the women who fast, and the men who guard their private parts / chastity and the women who guard it, and the men who remember God much and the women who remember - God has prepared for THEM forgiveness and a mighty / great reward."
16:31
Gardens of perpetual residence, which they will enter, beneath which rivers flow. They will have therein whatever they wish. Thus does Allah reward the righteous -
One opinions is that the Quran describes what Men will get in Paradise and its left ambiguous for Women, not because women will be wronged. On the contrary they will get whatever they will desire. But behind not mentioning a specific reward is wisdom as pointed out in this video by Brother Nouman Ali Khan. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVybKR_O_34
You also might want to read brother Joseph's opinion on the matter. He has interpreted the issue differently. http://quransmessage.com/articles/sexy%20female%20virgins%20for%20men%20in%20heaven%20FM3.htm .
Then there are issues such as polygamy, the purpose and "wisdom" of which I just don't understand.
You can also see Zakir Naik's argument regarding the wisdom behind polygamy. However any rationalization should remain secondary. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zm8m2Cik040 (I don't necessary agree with all what he said, but still you can get good points from his argument)
One thing that really bothers me is how so many Muslim men don't acknowledge that women also have desires. They also find men attractive. They also have to protect themselves from sin and distraction. It's as if the focus is often on men and how to fix their overly aggressive "hormones"
But actually the Quran acknowledges that Women too have desires. For example this is apparent in Prophet Joseph's story. And is also apparent when God asks women to lower their gaze.
[12:23]
And she, in whose house he was, sought to seduce him. She closed the doors and said, "Come, you." He said, "[I seek] the refuge of Allah. Indeed, he is my master, who has made good my residence. Indeed, wrongdoers will not succeed."
12:24]
And she certainly determined [to seduce] him, and he would have inclined to her had he not seen the proof of his Lord. And thus [it was] that We should avert from him evil and immorality. Indeed, he was of Our chosen servants.
[12:25]
And they both raced to the door, and she tore his shirt from the back, and they found her husband at the door. She said, "What is the recompense of one who intended evil for your wife but that he be imprisoned or a painful punishment?"
[24:31]
And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty;
You also might want to look at this opinion about Wife beating. It explains the issue very well in my opinion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1azySjz4edk&t=9s
Maybe other member might address the other points you raised. But I hope this helps in small way.
Regards,
Ahmad
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Peace Sleepysoul.
I agree with you. The way Qoran has been translated by some is embarrassing and oppressive.
GOD s wisdom goes beyond all issues. What God is saying in Qoran needs a lot of pondering and reflection ,.
Qoran and Paedophilia, Qoran and slavery, Qoran and homosexuality, Qoran and oppression, Qoran and gender, Qoran and morals, Qoran and different generations, Qoran and…
GOD is very much aware of every generation and its behavioural cycles. To me Qoran never condemns innocent people. All God s messages and Qoran have come as a mercy to all the generations as a way out of all issues.
Do you think GOD is not aware of slavery, oppression, paedophilia,gender bias… etc through the generations? Do you think that GOD condemns without justice? Do you think that GOD is not aware of the various stages of life of different generations?
Qoran has set a way of life according to GOD s system and offers a way out of other “systems”. Qoran comes to “free” the true believer by “wiping out all his/her issues”.
GOD is forgiver most Merciful to all believers in every generation.
For example, Qoran gave clear instructions about who to marry, yet allowed existing marriages of the time it came to remain intact.
Qoran gave clear instructions about slavery,yet allowed (under certain fair condition) those who had slaves and encouraged them to free the slaves. etc…
We, this generation, if we say we believe Qoran,then we need to ponder its way and apply it to ourselves. Qoran encourages freedom.knowledge.justice ,forgiveness, set an example…etc. GOD then does the rest.
,Qoran never ever confirms nonsense and fables!!! Qoran never confirms bias and oppression!!!Qoran never ever confirms “Men s” warped logic/understanding and arrogance!!!!
Sometimes the mind boggles!In the past, Men(some!),yes Men(Some) have interpreted GOD s words , women were too busy being responsible for the home and siblings and doing their duty to GOD,women also trusted men!. Men took advantage of that and translated GOD s words to suit their big egos and oppress women, weak men other races and children.
What a travesty of justice! Never mind, the game will soon be over. Let them rejoice in their fables and oppression for a bit.
GOD bless all the true believers that are now exposing these “big egos” and false religions .
If you despair of the religion,please do not despair of Qoran. Or at least study it in detail,then decide.
May the Lord bless you and help you with the issues.
Peace.
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Salam,
Thanks to both for replying!
I actually wrote all that despite a few years of looking into such women's issues, and despite reading several of Joseph Islam's articles and others on the internet. With sunnism, my doubts began with the whole "hoori" topic. How men will have many women while women will be stuck with their worldy husbands and will have material things like jewelry and clothes instead.. oh and of course "immense beauty" (to be even more pleasing to her husband?)
Ahmad,
About hoors, I've heard that one from quite a few men (that Allah apparently did not mention women because "women are shy" or something). I've heard Dr Zakir Naik's opinion on this issue and I believe he goes with Mohammad Asad's translation of the word "hoor" which I think Joseph Islam also agrees with. "Hoors" (pure companions) being for both women and men. This makes sense to me. I have pretty much come to terms with this though and it makes sense that the rewards are for both.
For me, polygamy is something difficult to understand. Even the sunni definition of it makes more sense to me than e.g. the part in Joseph's article which says one can take another wife for beauty. Why? Because many sunnis (despite many not following this) say polygamy is to support widows and such. I don't see (and many others would agree) how marrying many women for beauty and lust contributes to anything good.
There are even women e.g in "liberal" societies that are in relationships with 2 men or simply like two men at the same time or cheat on their boyfriends/have extramarital affairs. I don't think it's as black and white as "men desire more women, woman desires one man". There are also men that have no interest in having more than one wife. We are not all the same.
I'm not saying both should women and men should be allowed to go around marrying many for lust, no, but basing the reasoning for marriage on sexual desire alone doesn't seem reasonable.
[12:23]
And she, in whose house he was, sought to seduce him. She closed the doors and said, "Come, you." He said, "[I seek] the refuge of Allah. Indeed, he is my master, who has made good my residence. Indeed, wrongdoers will not succeed."
12:24]
And she certainly determined [to seduce] him, and he would have inclined to her had he not seen the proof of his Lord. And thus [it was] that We should avert from him evil and immorality. Indeed, he was of Our chosen servants.
[12:25]
And they both raced to the door, and she tore his shirt from the back, and they found her husband at the door. She said, "What is the recompense of one who intended evil for your wife but that he be imprisoned or a painful punishment?"
[24:31]
And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty;
Yes, I know of that incident as well. :) I suppose I was kind of down yesterday. I think I've started feeling tired dealing with these issues..
Maybe other member might address the other points you raised. But I hope this helps in small way.
Thanks for helping!! :)
,Qoran never ever confirms nonsense and fables!!! Qoran never confirms bias and oppression!!!Qoran never ever confirms “Men s” warped logic/understanding and arrogance!!!!
Sometimes the mind boggles!In the past, Men(some!),yes Men(Some) have interpreted GOD s words , women were too busy being responsible for the home and siblings and doing their duty to GOD,women also trusted men!. Men took advantage of that and translated GOD s words to suit their big egos and oppress women, weak men other races and children.
Yes, I do believe that many men give Islam a bad image, even today.
And I understand what you're saying. God is not unjust. Perhaps some of these parts that people find confusing are tests, to see what a good person would do in such a situation.
May God bless you both too.
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33:35
"Indeed the Muslim men and the Muslim women, and the believing men and the believing women, and the obedient men and the obedient women, and the truthful men and the truthful women, and the patient men and the patient women, and the humble men and the humble women, and the men who give charity and the women who give charity, and the men who fast and the women who fast, and the men who guard their private parts / chastity and the women who guard it, and the men who remember God much and the women who remember - God has prepared for THEM forgiveness and a mighty / great reward."
16:31
Gardens of perpetual residence, which they will enter, beneath which rivers flow. They will have therein whatever they wish. Thus does Allah reward the righteous -
Beautiful verses. :-)
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Though I do have to say that in countries or places where divorcees and widows are still treated badly, there is no proper government support for them and they are suffering then I think if a married man decides to marry such a woman to giver her shelter and rights and the first wife agrees (but come on, how many men refrain if the first wife says no?) AND if it's okay Islamically, then I guess it could work in some cases.
However if a man only wants to marry another woman for lust and the first wife is somehow okay with it.. then I don't even know..
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Asalamu 3alykum
Dear Sleepysoul
Not all the time does the laws or the obedience to God in the Quran always need a logical explanation as to why its commanded. Not all the time does it need to fit with what we think is right.
Believers seem to hear and obey (2:85, 3:7). Why do we have to fast? Why is swine forbidden as its been consumed by many people without any harm and actually if one is in need of food God actually allowed it for consumption in cases of starvation.
It is clear from the Quran that Prophet Muhammad had wives. Also God makes it clear that men are permitted if they choose to have multiple wives (4:3). Also its not encouraged nor is it discouraged.
We all have different desires. Some we must try to shun off. With the help of God Insha'Allah He will help.
Although I can only assume as to why God made it permissible for men to have many wives only God knows best.
I can also speculate as to why women are commanded to only having one husband. I can see how much of problems can happen from having multiple husbands. Who would be the father of the children? What about on the womens menstruation? I can go on but it just seems very odd in my opinion.
Also the Quran actually does not permit men to be with women for lust. That completely different from marrying a women for her beauty.
The purpose for marriage is different than lust. One does not marry if he wanted lust. Lust is when one wants to have sexual relations without the responsibilities of being a husband and the responsibilities of marriage.
Lust needs to be controlled as even men or maybe women who desire it want it from not even beautiful women or men only.
Also what bro Joseph was saying from what I understood is that marrying a women for her beauty is not condemned from a Quranic perspective. That beauty is a valid reason to marry a women if she also so willed as there is some people who I've heard that said you cannot marry women because of their beauty alone. However verse 33:52 seems to negate that.
Those are my thoughts
Peace
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Salam
Correction
Believers seem to hear and obey (2:85, 3:7).
Verse 2:285
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I can also speculate as to why women are commanded to only having one husband. I can see how much of problems can happen from having multiple husbands. Who would be the father of the children? What about on the womens menstruation? I can go on but it just seems very odd in my opinion.
Also the Quran actually does not permit men to be with women for lust. That completely different from marrying a women for her beauty.
The purpose for marriage is different than lust. One does not marry if he wanted lust. Lust is when one wants to have sexual relations without the responsibilities of being a husband and the responsibilities of marriage.
Lust needs to be controlled as even men or maybe women who desire it want it from not even beautiful women or men only.
Also what bro Joseph was saying from what I understood is that marrying a women for her beauty is not condemned from a Quranic perspective. That beauty is a valid reason to marry a women if she also so willed as there is some people who I've heard that said you cannot marry women because of their beauty alone. However verse 33:52 seems to negate that.
Those are my thoughts
Peace
You think nowaday one can't find out who the father is?
The bold, you're just repeating what Joseph said in his article. He's fallible just like the rest of us.
Why does that apply to today's men though? It was commanded to the Prophet and it wasn't said in the verse that he can marry for beauty, the verse says he IS NOT allowed to marry anymore even if he finds their beauty pleasing. This was something said to the Prophet, not the rest of the earth's men.
Actually, there are many problems when men marry several women just for "beauty" as well. Rarely (if ever) do you hear of successful polygamous marriages where all parties are fine and happy. Especially so when it comes to educated women. And especially so when a man marries solely because he wants another pretty woman. So why do you think men are allowed to marry more than one? Because "men have a higher sexual desire" is no reason because there are women with high sexual desire as well. Do you acknowledge that there are women as well that would find men other than their husband attractive?
And how many men ask permission from their first wives and how many men when denied this actually don't take a second wife?
How many give each of them their own house, car and all that they need and want? How many spend equal time with them? If they can't be fair, they're not allowed to take more than one anyway, right? But many do it anyway.
I once watched a documentary where they interviewed an Indian village man (don't think he was even Muslim) who had 3 wives. One or two to get the water (they had to go very far to get water and it took them almost the whole day or so) and one to do all the housework. What kind of marriage is that? I know of another man who's had a few marriages in his lifetime but had two wives at the same time at some point, both in different countries, one of whom he did not even visit much.
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The purpose for marriage is different than lust. One does not marry if he wanted lust. Lust is when one wants to have sexual relations without the responsibilities of being a husband and the responsibilities of marriage.
Peace
Of course it's not the purpose of marriage. Have you never heard of those men that go to poor countries, pay someone, do "temporary nikkah" with poor girls just for sex, divorce them and leave?
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It is a "man s world"! Some prefer it that way.
Students of Qoran know to follow the "best path " in it:
1-Do to others...
2- One wife/husband to be just.No sex allowed with anyone else.
3-No oppression.
4-Argue/encourage by what is best.
5-Rights for everyone,like you would want your rights.
6-Stand for what is fair and right as per GOD s best path.
...etc.
The lady is right to question the religion of men.
Shall we just tell her to like it or lump it?
Or shall we expect her to adhere to 7th century ways?
Or shall we keep on following our old generations,grandfathers and fathers?
Lady,I have no excuses for you why the world of religion is the way it is. It seems unfair and oppressive.
All of us need to fight prejudice ,oppression against women,weak men and children.
The way things are in the religion does not look like "following the best path" instructed in Qoran.
Part of the solution needs to start at home by the fathers and the sons of this and future generations.
GOD bless.
Peace.
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Peace
You think nowaday one can't find out who the father is?
Yes there is ways to find out who the father is. But that is not the point. A women is the one who bares the child in her womb for 9 month. Can you imagine a women having married multiple men while pregnant? I do not want to get into details about so many possible explanations as to why I think it would not be right for a women to have more than one husband from a worldly perspective. Although I think such relationships would really be fake and just trying to prove a point.
The bold, you're just repeating what Joseph said in his article. He's fallible just like the rest of us.
Why does that apply to today's men though? It was commanded to the Prophet and it wasn't said in the verse that he can marry for beauty, the verse says he IS NOT allowed to marry anymore even if he finds their beauty pleasing. This was something said to the Prophet, not the rest of the earth's men.
First of all I do not see what he said wrong. Verse 33:52 is asking ONLY the prophet to refrain from marriage after that verse was revealed. Even if a women's beauty had attracted him. Implicitly stating that beauty is a good enough reason to marry a women alone, however this time the Prophet would have needed to refrain from marriage even in that case alone.
The rest of Earth's men are exempt from this restriction as you can see it only applies to the Prophet.
Actually, there are many problems when men marry several women just for "beauty" as well. Rarely (if ever) do you hear of successful polygamous marriages where all parties are fine and happy. Especially so when it comes to educated women. And especially so when a man marries solely because he wants another pretty woman.
You may possibly be correct. However there also possibly many very good relationships out there that are polygamous also very happy and content.
So why do you think men are allowed to marry more than one? Because "men have a higher sexual desire" is no reason because there are women with high sexual desire as well. Do you acknowledge that there are women as well that would find men other than their husband attractive?
Only God knows the reasons why. Like I said I can only assume and speculate the reasons as to why. I'm not denying that some women have higher sexual desires than men. I do not think that the level of ones sexual desire alone is the reason.
Well of course that there is women who find other than their husbands attractive. This is even portrayed from the wife of the King in the Chapter of Joseph. Some might even find their own husbands not attractive and they are still with them and they live in a good relationship.
Believing men and women all have different kind of desires and they seek God's help with whatever they face. Anything that they find not lawful they try to curtail it and seek God's help.
And how many men ask permission from their first wives and how many men when denied this actually don't take a second wife?
How many give each of them their own house, car and all that they need and want? How many spend equal time with them? If they can't be fair, they're not allowed to take more than one anyway, right? But many do it anyway.
You seem to be suggesting that a man always has the means to provide what you said. It could be possible that a poor man could be married to multiple believing women and they do not have all this and also are treated fairly and justly. The Quran does instruct how to treat wives. Also the Quran verifies that a man who chooses to marry women cannot treat women perfectly equal but must remain just and to spread his time and attention as equal as possible.
In today's world it is not the normal situation for men having multiple wives. But the Quran does cater to all times and different people. God is the creator of both men and women. He knows best to what is right and wrong for both of them.
Some women possibly accept polygamy because of their faith and some cannot seem to understand it and it troubles them. I can understand in a society like today the troubles a women has to go through if this was the case, but I also find their is believing men who restrict themselves from marrying other women for the sole reason not to hurt their wife. I've also heard of women who really don't care and desperately try to involve theirselves in a married man's life but the reason it does not work is the first wife does not accept it or he feels it would give him trouble.
Again the Quran does not encourage or discourage a man from marrying more than one women.
Peace
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Although I think such relationships would really be fake and just trying to prove a point.
That's your opinion.
The rest of Earth's men are exempt from this restriction as you can see it only applies to the Prophet.
Yes, that what I'm saying, that verse applies to the Prophet. So out of the verse you think that beauty applies to all Muslim men but the restriction only applies to the Prophet?
You may possibly be correct. However there also possibly many very good relationships out there that are polygamous also very happy and content.
Examples of such people you've met..
Only God knows the reasons why. Like I said I can only assume and speculate the reasons as to why. I'm not denying that some women have higher sexual desires than men. I do not think that the level of ones sexual desire alone is the reason.
Well of course that there is women who find other than their husbands attractive. This is even portrayed from the wife of the King in the Chapter of Joseph. Some might even find their own husbands not attractive and they are still with them and they live in a good relationship.
Believing men and women all have different kind of desires and they seek God's help with whatever they face. Anything that they find not lawful they try to curtail it and seek God's help.
I agree with this. Often men act like women are the ones that need "shame" to the point that they make it look like women don't have desires at all..
You seem to be suggesting that a man always has the means to provide what you said. It could be possible that a poor man could be married to multiple believing women and they do not have all this and also are treated fairly and justly. The Quran does instruct how to treat wives. Also the Quran verifies that a man who chooses to marry women cannot treat women perfectly equal but must remain just and to spread his time and attention as equal as possible.
Yeah so if he can't "like" them all equally then what is left? Time, material things and such comforts .. and good treatment.
It is difficult for rich men to be fair so how in the world could a poor man provide and care for multiple?
In today's world it is not the normal situation for men having multiple wives. But the Quran does cater to all times and different people. God is the creator of both men and women. He knows best to what is right and wrong for both of them.
God also knows what hurts us and what doesn't, our likes, dislikes and desires. Also what is deep within our hearts.
I personally believe polygamy should only be practiced in dire circumstances.
I prefer to take such things as only applicable/tests for this world. In the other world, if we make it, we'll all have what we desire. (Not the sunni belief of women being prisoners even in paradise, Astaghfirullah.)
Some women possibly accept polygamy because of their faith and some cannot seem to understand it and it troubles them. I can understand in a society like today the troubles a women has to go through if this was the case, but I also find their is believing men who restrict themselves from marrying other women for the sole reason not to hurt their wife. I've also heard of women who really don't care and desperately try to involve theirselves in a married man's life but the reason it does not work is the first wife does not accept it or he feels it would give him trouble.
Again the Quran does not encourage or discourage a man from marrying more than one women.
That could be. I don't agree with the view that men are "polygamous by nature". There are men that do not want to marry multiple women and just want to be with their wife.
Peace
Forgot to reply before. Walaikumasalaam.
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It is a "man s world"! Some prefer it that way.
Students of Qoran know to follow the "best path " in it:
1-Do to others...
2- One wife/husband to be just.No sex allowed with anyone else.
3-No oppression.
4-Argue/encourage by what is best.
5-Rights for everyone,like you would want your rights.
6-Stand for what is fair and right as per GOD s best path.
...etc.
The lady is right to question the religion of men.
Shall we just tell her to like it or lump it?
Or shall we expect her to adhere to 7th century ways?
Or shall we keep on following our old generations,grandfathers and fathers?
Lady,I have no excuses for you why the world of religion is the way it is. It seems unfair and oppressive.
All of us need to fight prejudice ,oppression against women,weak men and children.
The way things are in the religion does not look like "following the best path" instructed in Qoran.
Part of the solution needs to start at home by the fathers and the sons of this and future generations.
GOD bless.
Peace.
It's true, many men have distorted things just to suit their own desires. Unsuccessful polygamous marriages are just one problem, there are many other huge issues such as lack of education for women in places, domestic violence, honor killings, acid attacks etc..
Well said, especially that bold part.
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Salam
I personally believe polygamy should only be practiced in dire circumstances.
Although I would need to see proof of this from the Quran. At the end a man will need to take this up with his wife and go from there. The situation will tell what happens.
But from what I can see I see no problem for men marrying multiple women if they the women agree from a Quran's perspective
Salam
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Salam
Although I would need to see proof of this from the Quran. At the end a man will need to take this up with his wife and go from there. The situation will tell what happens.
But from what I can see I see no problem for men marrying multiple women if they the women agree from a Quran's perspective
Salam
Salaam,
If they actually, truly don't have a problem with it then perhaps.
Otherwise I don't understand why orphans would be mentioned in the verse then. The theme is mainly orphans..
The word for "orphans", "yatim", it does not encompass only children, correct?
You didn't reply, give me examples you know of successful polygamous marriages where all are treated fairly and live happily together..
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Wa 3alykum assalam
Otherwise I don't understand why orphans would be mentioned in the verse then. The theme is mainly orphans..
The word for "orphans", "yatim", it does not encompass only children, correct?
Yes the verse is mainly focusing on making sure no injustices is happening to the orphans. Later on in the chapter after reading verse 4:127 one then goes back and realizes that verse 4:3 is arguably mainly speaking about the female orphans the ones men were desiring to marry.
In my humble opinion and an interpolation is that God is telling the men that these are orphans first. Whom you need to give them their inheritance and then possibly marry them. If you fear that you are not able to give them their inheritance or that you are going to use it or share it by you or thats why you are marrying them because of the money, God then illustrates that marry any other women of your choice, (in/by) twos and threes and fours. That is better than doing injustice to the orphan women by squandering them out of their portion and consuming it in your life.
Also its important to point out that they were desiring to marry them obviously after they are at an age of sound judgement and reason and not children.
By that verse 4:3 God does not forbid multiple marriages for men. Rather multiple marriages is further supported. Also God does give the commandments of which women a man can marry. However He does forbid marrying women who are already married (4:24)
You didn't reply, give me examples you know of successful polygamous marriages where all are treated fairly and live happily together..
Yes I do know polygnyous marriages. They seem fine Alhamdulila.
What is a happy life? I don't think they are seeking a fantasy movie like marriage. They understand this temporal world. I think they see the blessings in their marriages those that accept them. They also understand that life is not a walk in the park all the time. They all got their responsibilities and struggles just like any other marriage.
I mean at the end the only one who is going to complain about a polygynous marriage is the first wife as the other ones know exactly what they are getting themselves into and obviously is something they want. Other wise then we are getting into a completely different topic.
There is also women who try to be with married men(could be be brothers, friends etc, so I just know). What does that tell you? But as you can see it aint that easy. Some women deep down mostly worry about the first wife and are worried to be rejected by her. I even know families moms and brothers and sisters who are fine with it out of their own free will(sure they would rather have had their daughters or sisters marry single men but things just happen). They have no problems with being married to the married man. Its all about the situation. On the other hand sure there is also women who have lots of problems with it.
Also keep in mind thats its not all the time that its the men that are looking for women to get married to. Sometimes women end up wanting to be with a man(in marriage) that she desires thats already married. (Yes we can say the same thing about the opposite but we already established that the Quran forbids that (4:24) and plus I don't think there is a man would ever want to marry a women who is married because he desires her. I know you said thats only my opinion but I really doubt it. Maybe out of the scope of religion there maybe men who would be with women who are married for seeking something temporary but to marry them while knowing they have another husband in marriage, men are by nature not given into this. It could just be my opinion.
I'm not saying all this happens all the time but there is some men that have that capacity and although there is many men out there, there still seems to be multiple women who want this one man and are willingly want to marry him. Masha'Allah there is many of them. But maybe because of the restrictions imposed this often leads to lewdness, secrets relationships, and so on. I'm sure that some men are able and willing to take some of these women as wives. But with all the headaches attached to it they simply don't. Not these days anyways. I feel sad sometimes for the women also who end up wanting a man to marry but he does not(possibly because he does not want to hurt his wife and compromise his marriage). Don't get me wrong I do understand why the wife would get hurt. But again I find that the Quran does authorize men to have multiple women and at the same stoke God does not intend to hurt a women's feelings. I understand. So therefor this seems to be a societal feeling of jealousy and maybe much more or something else. I do not know. But there does seem to be women who lived with this for ages according to history.
Also what I can tell you for sure is that the prophet had multiple marriages( Prophet is an example for the believers). I would strongly assume that the men of yore had multiple marriages believers and non believers. To say that their marriages were unwarranted and the wives were all treated ill would be irrational. I'm sure lots of those women lived honourable lives with great men who loved them and tried their best to treat them equally and put their lives in front of their own.
Anyways I think I . Which probably should not be part of this forum. I'm just trying to help out with what the Quran authorizes to humanity. We can simply accept them or reject them or pass over them. To be honest I do not see any special circumstances that the Quran speaks about for a multiple marriage to be lawful for a man. In the site of God multiple marriages for men seem fine however todays world makes men seem like they are doing something wrong.
Your story about the man who married 3 wives and made them do things for him, seems like your making it look like that anyone who has multiple wives live like that. I mean by how you simply described it was like some slaves. We all know thats not right. Slaving anyone is wrong. I do not know what that has to do with polygny.
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Shalom / peace br. Hamzeh .... really enjoyed your post 8)
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Brother Hamzeh,had you been a woman and written that last post of yours, I would have been shocked, nevertheless I would have accepted that some women are happy to share a husband .
You tried hard brother, but it is not convincing.
All a man can do, in such a topic, is speak for men.
I would like to hear from the ladies on how women feel about polygamous marriages, that will give us a truer picture.
Bear in mind Qoran encourages one wife (You will not be able to remain just to more than one!) as far as I can understand.
GOD bless.
Peace.
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Asalamu 3alykum brother Good logic
Like i said in my last post of course any women would possibly not prefer to share her husband. Its simple
Do you think women who are involved in a polygny marriage are forced into that marriage?
Or do you think they made a decision that suits their own needs and wants. Sure we can always look at other peoples lifes and say this is better and I would rather have this. But people make decisions oaths and covenants and stick to them.
Why did they get married to a married man? They know there is many single men out there in the world. But some women seem to not be so concerned with this matter so much.
I don't get what you mean I tried hard?
Im not so convincing about what? Can you tell me if its wrong for a man to have more than one wife? You said it encourages one wife? Well what happens if a man has 2 or more?
You know also that a man cannot hold women against their will. The options at the end are all free. Its the decision of a women if she wants to get married.
So women who are married to married are making decisions that suits their own needs.
The Quran again does not encourage or discourage polygny. It does encourage a man if that he fears or already knows that he cannot be just or is going to give attention to one more than the other then avoid it. But it does not deter a man from having more than one wife.
But it does part guidance to those who choose to have more than one wife. Simple.
You already know how ladies would react to this topic. No one is saying ladies like polygny marriages or even would accept it unless faced with a situation in their life. But just like anytjing else in the world people do whats best for them.
Bear in mind Qoran encourages one wife (You will not be able to remain just to more than one!) as far as I can understand.
I don't get what your saying? It is absolutely true that a man cannot do perfect justice between his wives. God is simply telling him that this is normal but do not go over board and leave one wife in complete suspicion while giving all the attention to one and so on.
You say you believe in the Quran and its justice? Can you tell me then why the Quran legitimizes polygny? Encourages one wife is not a good answer.
Salam
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Asalamu 3alykum brother Good logic
I'm really sorry brother, I think I miss understood your comments and I do apologize. I also think my last sentence sounded rude and please don't think I was trying to be harsh in anyway. I was typing on a phone and is a little more difficult to see questions and reply at the same time. Now that I re-read my comment it does sound rude. Please forgive me bro.
Also now that I read your comments again I would like to respond to them again.
Brother Hamzeh,had you been a woman and written that last post of yours, I would have been shocked, nevertheless I would have accepted that some women are happy to share a husband .
I do agree. :).
You tried hard brother, but it is not convincing.
I only wrote what I did first because Sleepysoul asked for examples.
All a man can do, in such a topic, is speak for men.
I would say yes most of the time but sometimes some men hear some women's sentiments and their feelings. But I know what you mean, I was not trying to convince anyone on the logic behind polygny as I stated before only God knows why He allowed it.
I would like to hear from the ladies on how women feel about polygamous marriages, that will give us a truer picture.
I understand what your saying, but it is possible that you are risking that the truer picture that your going to get from most of the ladies will conflict with the Quran's message about polygny as the Quran does not forbid it.
Bear in mind Qoran encourages one wife (You will not be able to remain just to more than one!) as far as I can understand.
GOD bless.
I think you are referring to verse 4:129. I think your comments in brackets are not portraying the correct message or the message in full. I would be more inclined to interpolate it that God is telling men who have or choosing to have more than one wife that you will not be able to do perfect justice between the wives you have even if it is something you desire so much. It is not possible as human beings and it is also not expected from God that perfect justice will be committed but of course try your hardest. But make sure you do not give all your attention or be inclined to one so much that you leave the other/s in suspense. But if you think or fear that injustice of this kind is going to happen then remain with one or pick one as it is not fair for any women to live like that in suspense with no attention (4:3). With these options given I think believing men should always do the right thing. Thats how I see it anyways for now, God knows best.
I guess I just wanted to know since you seem to only imply that the Quran encourages one wife (which seems to be a softened approach as to what the Quran really does permit I could be wrong) but know very well there is explicit verses that demonstrate the permission for polygny then how can a man ever distinguish between the two options if they strive to maintain justice? I feel people get mixed messages.
Do you agree that if one really does have two options freely and does strive to maintenance justice then its safe to say that the Quran neither encourages or discourages polygny? Its simply left to what circumstances that arrive in peoples lives. The Quran caters for all in what God deems right.
May God bless you too
Salam
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Yes the verse is mainly focusing on making sure no injustices is happening to the orphans. Later on in the chapter after reading verse 4:127 one then goes back and realizes that verse 4:3 is arguably mainly speaking about the female orphans the ones men were desiring to marry.
In my humble opinion and an interpolation is that God is telling the men that these are orphans first. Whom you need to give them their inheritance and then possibly marry them. If you fear that you are not able to give them their inheritance or that you are going to use it or share it by you or thats why you are marrying them because of the money, God then illustrates that marry any other women of your choice, (in/by) twos and threes and fours. That is better than doing injustice to the orphan women by squandering them out of their portion and consuming it in your life.
Which part of the verse says marry "other" women? What's the word for "other"? And not the women from the orphans?
Yes I do know polygnyous marriages. They seem fine Alhamdulila.
What is a happy life? I don't think they are seeking a fantasy movie like marriage. They understand this temporal world.
So you know some people who are living in polygamous marriages?
It's not just a man's right to live a "happy life" by doing whatever they wish at the expense of someone else. As I said, I have mostly heard of unsuccessful polygamous marriages. One example I gave you is actually of a relative. I feel for the women that are living this way despite not wanting to. May Allah reward these women immensely in the next life and free them from these chains.
Can't say that understand this "temportal world" if they keep marrying just because they like what they see.
Yes, that is one thing that comforts me, knowing that these restrictions and and rules apply only to this world.
Also keep in mind thats its not all the time that its the men that are looking for women to get married to. Sometimes women end up wanting to be with a man(in marriage) that she desires thats already married. (Yes we can say the same thing about the opposite but we already established that the Quran forbids that (4:24) and plus I don't think there is a man would ever want to marry a women who is married because he desires her. I know you said thats only my opinion but I really doubt it. Maybe out of the scope of religion there maybe men who would be with women who are married for seeking something temporary but to marry them while knowing they have another husband in marriage, men are by nature not given into this. It could just be my opinion.
Have you heard of this thing called "cheating"? Or how about adultery? There are women that cheat and "outside the scope of religion" there are even cases of women in polyandrous relationships. See, there's even a word for it. I'm not saying it's correct but often men like to pretend that they have this oh-so huge problem controlling themselves sexually as if for women it's all easy peasy.
You don't know all the men in the world, so you can't say what all men's nature is.
I'm not saying all this happens all the time but there is some men that have that capacity and although there is many men out there, there still seems to be multiple women who want this one man and are willingly want to marry him. Masha'Allah there is many of them. But maybe because of the restrictions imposed this often leads to lewdness, secrets relationships, and so on. I'm sure that some men are able and willing to take some of these women as wives. But with all the headaches attached to it they simply don't. Not these days anyways. I feel sad sometimes for the women also who end up wanting a man to marry but he does not(possibly because he does not want to hurt his wife and compromise his marriage). Don't get me wrong I do understand why the wife would get hurt. But again I find that the Quran does authorize men to have multiple women and at the same stoke God does not intend to hurt a women's feelings. I understand. So therefor this seems to be a societal feeling of jealousy and maybe much more or something else. I do not know. But there does seem to be women who lived with this for ages according to history.
That's kind of funny. Let me repeat, not all men want more than one wife. And there are also morally good women who don't keep an eye on other women's husbands.
Also what I can tell you for sure is that the prophet had multiple marriages( Prophet is an example for the believers). I would strongly assume that the men of yore had multiple marriages believers and non believers. To say that their marriages were unwarranted and the wives were all treated ill would be irrational. I'm sure lots of those women lived honourable lives with great men who loved them and tried their best to treat them equally and put their lives in front of their own.
Anyways I think I . Which probably should not be part of this forum. I'm just trying to help out with what the Quran authorizes to humanity. We can simply accept them or reject them or pass over them. To be honest I do not see any special circumstances that the Quran speaks about for a multiple marriage to be lawful for a man. In the site of God multiple marriages for men seem fine however todays world makes men seem like they are doing something wrong.
Your story about the man who married 3 wives and made them do things for him, seems like your making it look like that anyone who has multiple wives live like that. I mean by how you simply described it was like some slaves. We all know thats not right. Slaving anyone is wrong. I do not know what that has to do with polygny.
The other Prophets are also examples for us. Singular wives are mentioned for Prophet Nuh and Prophet Lot (pbut) for example. Why pick one Prophet? If a man wants only one wife, it doesn't mean that he doesn't find Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to be a good example.
As I said, I think there could be cases where polygamy might help a woman. For example, many divorcees and widows are still treated badly in some Muslim countries, where the government doesn't help either and such women need support. But how many men are willing to put their "temporal worldly desires" aside to give support to such women?
Why did that bother you? I don't know which part of the world you live in where polygamous marriages are all successful with all wives satisfied and treated fairly..
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Brother Hamzeh, thank you for your post.
My post was mainly to say that as a man I cannot speak for how women feel
.I know some societies have oppressive traditions and some women have no choice but to go with the system. May be they say what they do not feel?
Personally I cannot see why would any man want to have more than one wife.
If one wants to help other unfortunate women ,then help them financially with sadaqua/zakat...Why marry more when you already have a wife and may be children? Is this right and fair for all concerned?
My view anyway.
It is only right to ask women for their views on polygamy.
Common ladies let us have your honest opinion on the subject. Would you like to share a husband?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Asalamu 3alykum
Dear Sleepysoul
Which part of the verse says marry "other" women? What's the word for "other"? And not the women from the orphans?
There is no word that says "other". It seems like it can only be interpolated that way as the other way would seem problematic. From what I can tell is that the previous verse 4:2 is telling men to give and not mix the orphans their property with the mans. Verse 4:3 goes on to say if a man fears that he cannot act fairly with the orphans(at this point one only assumes its female orphans or either does not know). Its not until one reads verse 4:127 that realizes verse 4:3 is speaking about female orphans.
There seems to be already people questioning what is the instructions concerning women? God says He already has given you instructions about them (possibly referring to verse 4:2) and about the orphans girls that the men are desiring to marry who the men are NOT giving them their property(wealth). There actually seems to be a hint to NOT marry the orphan women because they are not giving them their prescribed wealth and property. So verse 4:3 instructs that if they fear that they are not going to act fairly with the orphan women, marry women of your choice two, three, four. So that would mean other women than the orphan women.
It's not just a man's right to live a "happy life" by doing whatever they wish at the expense of someone else. As I said, I have mostly heard of unsuccessful polygamous marriages. One example I gave you is actually of a relative. I feel for the women that are living this way despite not wanting to. May Allah reward these women immensely in the next life and free them from these chains.
Just because a man has multiple wives what makes you feel like he is having a happy life? What I meant was that even the man sometimes is not living a happy life. Just living with whatever faces them. And what is the "at expense of someone else all" about when we are talking about women who freely and willingly married into polygny.
I'm sure we all feel for these women who you speak of. It seems like now your on another topic, and I do not know what to tell you. We understand and we already established that the Quran condemns forced marriages and cruelty. I mean anyone with a sense of mind understands this. That is already clear. I thought we are talking about grown women who are free and under no obligations to marry any one and living under a hypothetical proper Islamic society. Does the Quran condemns polygyn or not? Then you were wondering about the logic and comparing mens desires and women desires? I simply told you God knows best as to why He has permitted polygyn because it simply is verifiable from the Quran.
4:19 O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.
Have you heard of this thing called "cheating"? Or how about adultery? There are women that cheat and "outside the scope of religion" there are even cases of women in polyandrous relationships.
I'm just telling you what the Quran see's as lawful. I am not trying to encourage multiple marriages, I am just saying to you that the Quran does not condemn or prohibit a man from having multiple wives. It does not consider that as cheating or adultery.
There seems to be even a situation where women gave themselves to the prophet while he was already married (60:10).
I'm not saying it's correct but often men like to pretend that they have this oh-so huge problem controlling themselves sexually as if for women it's all easy peasy.
I think again we talked about that already, there does not seem to be any evidence linked between polygyn and sexual desires. Believers try hard to restrain themselves from any kind of fornication whether single or married.
If I may just change the subject a little as I don't think I can answer all your question.
When I think of polygny I think about how a man breaks it to his first wife or if he even does. I do understand how sad it seems and unfair it seems especially in a time like today. What will likely happen is marriage will go on or will have a divorce or everyone will see what is best for them. I cannot say what is right or wrong.
I am not encouraging polygny and I am not sexist or biased in anyway Insha'Allah. I have a wife, sister, daughters and think about them as well Alhamdulila. It hurts me also to see how some of the muslim world has miss treated women. I am also a believer in the Quran Alhamdulila and I do find support for polygny. I cannot say that its wrong. However the polygny that I find is supported by the Quran is one by free will and justice and is for believing men and believing women and must be beneficial for both man and women.
Also if anyone can prove that polygny is only allowable in certain dire circumstances and is not permitted anymore or that I have its understood it, I am willing to accept it. Its a big important topic but its not the only thing in life.
Salam
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Peace brother Good logic
I know some societies have oppressive traditions and some women have no choice but to go with the system. May be they say what they do not feel?
I can see your point. But I was referring to free women in western countries.
Personally I cannot see why would any man want to have more than one wife.
I can relate to what your saying, but beauty may be one reason, children, comfort, etc. That probably sounds selfish and greedy, but it may apply to some men, obviously only when taking inconsideration that women are willing and not by compulsion and are getting what they need, freedom, and their justice, other wise if a man cannot provide the means, the right judgment and discernment then only one. Of course a man would have to convince his wife as well.
If one wants to help other unfortunate women ,then help them financially with sadaqua/zakat...Why marry more when you already have a wife and may be children? Is this right and fair for all concerned?
Yeah thats why I don't think the Quran permitted polygyn for helping women, but rather for other reasons inconsidering I guess that the man can convince his wife.
"Is this right and fair for all concerned?" I'm assuming it is if the Quran seems to permit polygny, otherwise you as well need to figure it out.
Anyways those are my thoughts. God knows best
Salam
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but beauty may be one reason, children, comfort, etc. That probably sounds selfish and greedy, but it may apply to some men, obviously only when taking inconsideration that women are willing and not by compulsion and are getting what they need, freedom, and their justice, other wise if a man cannot provide the means, the right judgment and discernment then only one. Of course a man would have to convince his wife as well.
Totally agree .....
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Asalamu 3alykum
Dear Sleepysoul
There seems to be already people questioning what is the instructions concerning women? God says He already has given you instructions about them (possibly referring to verse 4:2) and about the orphans girls that the men are desiring to marry who the men are NOT giving them their property(wealth). There actually seems to be a hint to NOT marry the orphan women because they are not giving them their prescribed wealth and property. So verse 4:3 instructs that if they fear that they are not going to act fairly with the orphan women, marry women of your choice two, three, four. So that would mean other women than the orphan women.
There seems to be even a situation where women gave themselves to the prophet while he was already married (60:10).
I'm sure we all feel for these women who you speak of. It seems like now your on another topic, and I do not know what to tell you. We understand and we already established that the Quran condemns forced marriages and cruelty.
When I think of polygny I think about how a man breaks it to his first wife or if he even does. I do understand how sad it seems and unfair it seems especially in a time like today. What will likely happen is marriage will go on or will have a divorce or everyone will see what is best for them. I cannot say what is right or wrong.
I am not encouraging polygny and I am not sexist or biased in anyway Insha'Allah. I have a wife, sister, daughters and think about them as well Alhamdulila. It hurts me also to see how some of the muslim world has miss treated women. I am also a believer in the Quran Alhamdulila and I do find support for polygny. I cannot say that its wrong. However the polygny that I find is supported by the Quran is one by free will and justice and is for believing men and believing women and must be beneficial for both man and women.
Also if anyone can prove that polygny is only allowable in certain dire circumstances and is not permitted anymore or that I have its understood it, I am willing to accept it. Its a big important topic but its not the only thing in life.
4:19 O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.
Walaikumasalaam.
One is not supposed to devour the wealth and property of orphans whether one marries them or marries other women. A man can also devour the orphan's property and rights if he marries other women, right?
To me it kind of makes more sense that it might mean to marry the women from the orphans. So the "women", not the children.
But honestly, this whole polygamy issue for marrying multiple other than helping them is what bothers me. If such is the case and only Allah knows the reasoning, then may Allah make it easier for me to understand it.
The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was not like other regular men. His status and stature is not comparable to other men. Even him and his wives had some rules that do not apply to other Muslims.
Of course Islam does not allow cruelty. However many Muslim men are corrupt. They have made Islam to look as if it's a man's religion and men will be the ones that will be "rewarded" and that Islam cares more about what men want as opposed to women. They have introduced disturbing things such as 72 hooris + 2 worldly wives for each man in Paradise, or how about 72 worldly women "inherited" by each man in Paradise from the ones whose husbands will go to hell, as if women are just bundles to be passed around, being given "fair skinned hooris" (racist) with bla bla body type or being able to marry up to 4 women because "men need this", being allowed to keep sex slaves and "the wife is not allowed to say anything", being allowed to marry little girls, being allowed to beat women, not letting women talk and stifling discussion because "their voice will turn us men on" and "women should stay inside and cook" etc etc.
Don't you see how it can be difficult to get past this? Of course not many Muslim men seem to understand this. And often they try to justify it and explain the "reasoning" behind it.
With the bold part, I suppose I agree. I just don't see it much, the righteous, fair and respectful treatment towards women in this world, especially and sadly, in Muslim countries. And another thing that is shameful? A lot of Muslim men don't even seem to care about it, let alone trying to fix this. They often seem more concerned with women's clothing, women as fitna, where women go and what they do, their "sexual desires", haraam relationships, other sects, the "west" than issues such as domestic abuse, honor killings, sexual harrassment, forced marriages etc.
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Common ladies let us have your honest opinion on the subject. Would you like to share a husband?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Salam.
Me? Nope! :D
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Thank you for your post brother Hamzeh.
Like I said to you, me, you or any other man speaking on this subject will not do it justice.
Yes we can give our views but we are not the ones sharing the husbands.
However if one seeks the message of Qoran, knowing that GOD addresses all types of people in it, one needs to follow the best path instructed in it- Ittabiu Ahsana Ma Unzila Ilayikum Min Rabbikum-
Is not the best path to marry one "Wahidatan" for fear of injustice?
Also thanks to all the other members for your views.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Sleepyghoul, I have some advice for you. This thread is turning into a pointless argument about subjective opinions, reminiscent of what often happens on Free-Minds forum. Neither Hamzeh nor Good Logic is going to help you. They can't, and they have no interest in doing so. I know when a conversation is becoming unproductive, and I would suggest you leave this thread. You need to know when to leave a conversation that is going nowhere.
Regarding 4:3, there is variance in interpretation, but the word for orphans is masculine/neutral plural. It is rather difficult to turn this into "If you fear you will not be just with female orphans whom you wish to marry" unless you do a fair amount of acrobatics. 4:127 does reference female orphans/widowed women not being given their proper dowries, and 4:4 provides the solution: Just give them their dowries (it's not that hard). 4:2 and 4:3 are both speaking generically of orphans, either gender. I won't continue this topic on a public forum because it seems impossible for people to have a sane academic discussion of 4:3 or 4:34. It always devolves into anecdotal stories about so-and-so's wives. If you want to continue, email me from my website.
Regarding witnesses (since you brought this up in your first post), the issue has absolutely nothing to do with women forgetting their testimony. This understanding is only the result of demonstrable misinterpretation as I have explained. https://ifoceanswereink.wordpress.com/2017/06/15/witnesses-financial-transactions-adultery-and-deficiency-in-reason/
With regards to hur al ayn: http://quransmessage.com/articles/sexy%20female%20virgins%20for%20men%20in%20heaven%20FM3.htm
On this topic, as with most others, I have found Joseph Islam's scholarship to be good, but his is not the final word, and he has been wrong before.
As for 4:34, it is incredible that traditionalists think women can be "disciplined" for an unproven "wrongdoing" when the Quran mandates a judicial process to prove wrongdoing, and strictly forbids every type of slander. 4:34 only speaks of "feared (khafa) wrongdoing," which is unproven and absolutely cannot warrant punishment. Sleepysoul, it is your responsibility to realize when tragic mistakes in Quranic interpretation have occurred. You cannot rely on others to give you the answers to everything, because they can't, and won't.
With regards to the female angels thing, the Quran is condemning the hypocrisy of Arabs, who (apparently) disliked female children yet worshiped female deities. You have to put all the verses on "daughters vs. sons" together to get the full picture.
BTW--I have done some research, and pre-Islamic Arabs actually buried male children alive with almost the same frequency they did female children. They did not uniformly dislike women, either. Interestingly, the Quran specifically condemns the murder of female children, although it acknowledges male infanticide as well (see 17:31; here “children,” awlad, is in the masculine plural).
God does not tell us to abandon common sense while reading the Quran. Such a suggestion is insulting; don't listen to anyone who tells you "there is wisdom behind God commanding oppression." The "wisdom behind oppression" mantra has been used to mess with the Quran for centuries. And don't read Sahih International's or even Yusuf Ali's translations; they're unnecessarily convoluted and demonstrably wrong. I would suggest this translation: https://historyofislam.com/the-quran/
I won't reply further on this thread. I know from experience that public forums are counterproductive and discussions get derailed. Email me if you want. And don't feel bad for any of this. Islam's teachings on women have been corrupted beyond recognition. It's not your fault.
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Asalamu 3alykum
Dear Amira
Sleepyghoul, I have some advice for you. This thread is turning into a pointless argument about subjective opinions, reminiscent of what often happens on Free-Minds forum. Neither Hamzeh nor Good Logic is going to help you. They can't, and they have no interest in doing so.
I think most of us are only hear for the sake of God and to spread a message of truth. I have no interest into proving anything to anyone that is not based on evidence. I am also here to learn and to take the best opinions from those who share them Insha'Allah. I am indeed interested in helping other for the sake of God and to provide comfort for brothers and sisters if God wills. I am not a scholar nor anyone claiming to have academic knowledge of any kind, but thanks to God I can recognize truth and love to share it and I have seen many others on this forum that do the same. Please do excuse me for any thing wrong that I said, it is I myself to blame if anyone did uncover some kind of false in my comments and I am happy that someone would address them so that we can reform and cleans the religion from its misconceptions Insha'Allah.
I agree sometimes things get out of hand in the process. Thanks for speaking up.
This is big deal of a topic for men as it is for a women. I think we all should understand our rights and what is lawful and forbidden.
I went over the verses and your comments, I gave it a little more thought and I am really trying hard to see it another way and trying to work out all the scenarios. However please see my views on this. I am not saying its correct but I can't see it the way you interpolated it. I can see two opinions fitting at this point but I will explain one now as I have some commitments I have to do and Insha'Allah I will give the other option that I can think of later. I also cannot see it your way for a couple reasons. If you may address these then I may possibly be convinced and I am willing and actually would love to be conclusive and convinced on this matter whatever it maybe.
You said
Regarding 4:3, there is variance in interpretation, but the word for orphans is masculine/neutral plural. It is rather difficult to turn this into "If you fear you will not be just with female orphans whom you wish to marry" unless you do a fair amount of acrobatics.
I agree
4:127 does reference female orphans/widowed women not being given their proper dowries,
At this point I respectfully disagree
"Ma kutiba lahunna" in verse 4:127 is what is ordained for them. This is of their inheritance. I do not see anything in this phrase that would suggest dowries. From what I recall dowries would refer to "ujhuuruhunna"
"Ma Kutiba lahunna" is not a dowry. Because it seems like they have not married them yet and are desiring to marry them so the dowry would not be expected. It seems that God is saying that He has given you already instructions about the female orphans who you are not giving them what is written for them(ma kutiba lahunna) to begin with, the man is not giving them their inheritance yet the man is desiring to marry them. I find that God is condemning the man that your wishing to marry them and also take their money. Like that is very serious. God knows best
verse 4:4 is a sadaqat, which is possibly referring to something that has been waiting for them like their inheritance or gift. If this translation would be fitting then I can see this making sense and verses 4:3-4 would be speaking about orphan women. Or the other opinion that I can think of is that this verse is now speaking about dowry and referring to verse 4:2.
4:4 provides the solution: Just give them their dowries (it's not that hard)
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I just can't see that the verse is speaking about dowries. I maybe missing something here
4:2 and 4:3 are both speaking generically of orphans, either gender. I won't continue this topic on a public forum because it seems impossible for people to have a sane academic discussion of 4:3 or 4:34. It always devolves into anecdotal stories about so-and-so's wives.
I agree as verse 4:2-3 would still cover male and female.
Also I find it kinda strange you said that last comment. I mean I found most people trying really hard on this forum to discuss things in a honest respectful academic way.
Anyways if your interested and I would like to hear what you think. To be honest you made a good point and I went over it but still a little puzzled. If you think you have a clear explanation please share it if you like.
Salam
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Correction
I meant and would like to rephrase this in my last post
verse 4:4 is a sadaqat, which is possibly referring to something that has been waiting for them like their inheritance or gift. If this translation would be fitting then I can see this making sense and verses 4:3-4 would be speaking about orphan women. Or the other opinion that I can think of is that this verse is now speaking about dowry and referring to verse 4:2.
verse 4:4 is a sadaqat, which is possibly referring to something that has been waiting for them like their inheritance or gift. If this translation would be fitting then I can see this making sense and verses 4:2 would be speaking about orphan women and men and verse 4:3 would be speaking about orphan women only.
Or the other opinion that I can think of is that this verse is now speaking about dowry and referring to verse 4:3 about the women who men marry.
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Peace Amira.
Thank you for entering the conversation and thank you for your offer of help to Sleepysoul.
I may agree that men in general cannot help with the topic of polygamy, that is why I have not attempted nor pretended that I have an answer. Read my posts again if you have any doubt please.
On the other hand, it will be interesting for us men, if you elaborate/explain your views to us/ your take as well here, I have requested this in my posts.
Of course it is your choice, but I for one will be grateful.
As far as what Qoran says about this and other topics, who can help better than the Author. GOD Alone.
Thanks once again and GOD bless you.
Peace
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Salaam Amira,
I was thinking of asking to have this thread locked now anyway. (I'm a little surprised they didn't lock it already because for some reason I feel that discussions are not allowed to go on for too long on this forum but maybe I'm wrong).
I was feeling kind of mentally tired and down the day I posted this topic. I'm not exactly relying on others though I do think it's fine if someone's understanding makes sense to me. I mean.. by messaging you, you would be giving me your own understanding too..
Where else would I meet more people with a Qur'an focused mindset?
I agree that we have to do our own research and ponder on God's Message. In'sha'Allah I do hope to have some grasp of the Arabic language.
I do find Joseph Islam's article on hoors good and also quite a few others but of course we are all fallible. There are also claims that hoors are not companions at all. I came across such a video, I think I'll check it out.
It's not always that easy as a Muslim woman.
I want to say though, thanks Hamzah and Good Logic. I apologize if I was rude.
May Allah bless you all.
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Salaam all,
Being a female I thought that I would add my contribution here :)
It has become more prevalent within Muslim communities that men only marry one woman at a time. I also agree with others that over the centuries, many scholars have interpreted the Quran and jurisprudence through a narrow male viewpoint.
However when it comes to marrying more that one wife, I am of the viewpoint that it is indeed a permission given to men by God and I am have to accept this.
The reason being that I believe in the Quran in its entirety but also acknowledge that I can't understand fully the reasoning behind all of verses. It may be something to do with the men and how they function and think differently when it comes to women.
Whatever the reasoning though, I do not believe that a man should secretly marry another wife as this has become commonplace unfortunately and leads to all sorts of issues.
Surely this is against the spirit of what a marriage is in Islam. Also as a wife myself, I would ideally prefer to be the only one!
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There are advantages to polygamous marriages in terms of child upbringing and maintenance of household.
No family can survive without an income. The need for a breadwinner forces at least one family member (usually the man) to be away from the family for great parts of the day, sometimes weeks or months. A lone woman to take care of multiple children is a most difficult task. Polygamous marriages solve this problem.
For example there is more support taking care of children. If the mother of a child has trouble breast feeding another could possibly assist. The stress of upbringing, household work, cooking etc. is reduced.
It is common in modern families that the grandparents and family members assist with child upbringing. With polygamous marriages such intervention becomes less necessary.
I think that it is possible that polygamous marriages lead to family units that are more self reliant and stable. The singular marriage rather appears to be more of an artificial social construct and a relatively recent development in Western society.
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Having said the above we note that the Quran does provide some resistance to polygamy, and also showcases believers who were in a monogamous marriage. In addition polygamy has become a jarring concept in a modern discourse. For these reasons perhaps it should be discouraged. In any case with modern technology and conveniences the monogamous arrangement is more viable now than it has ever been in history.
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Asalamu 3alykum
Dear Sleepysoul
Not all the time does the laws or the obedience to God in the Quran always need a logical explanation as to why its commanded. Not all the time does it need to fit with what we think is right.
Believers seem to hear and obey (2:85, 3:7). Why do we have to fast? Why is swine forbidden as its been consumed by many people without any harm and actually if one is in need of food God actually allowed it for consumption in cases of starvation.
It is clear from the Quran that Prophet Muhammad had wives. Also God makes it clear that men are permitted if they choose to have multiple wives (4:3). Also its not encouraged nor is it discouraged.
We all have different desires. Some we must try to shun off. With the help of God Insha'Allah He will help.
Although I can only assume as to why God made it permissible for men to have many wives only God knows best.
I can also speculate as to why women are commanded to only having one husband. I can see how much of problems can happen from having multiple husbands. Who would be the father of the children? What about on the womens menstruation? I can go on but it just seems very odd in my opinion.
Also the Quran actually does not permit men to be with women for lust. That completely different from marrying a women for her beauty.
The purpose for marriage is different than lust. One does not marry if he wanted lust. Lust is when one wants to have sexual relations without the responsibilities of being a husband and the responsibilities of marriage.
Lust needs to be controlled as even men or maybe women who desire it want it from not even beautiful women or men only.
Also what bro Joseph was saying from what I understood is that marrying a women for her beauty is not condemned from a Quranic perspective. That beauty is a valid reason to marry a women if she also so willed as there is some people who I've heard that said you cannot marry women because of their beauty alone. However verse 33:52 seems to negate that.
Those are my thoughts
Peace
An old topic which I just read ....Good response brother Hamzeh! ....
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Pakistan has a long way to go but this is great progress:
https://dunyanews.tv/en/Crime/500518-Man-jailed-over-second-marriage-without-consent-of--first-wife (https://dunyanews.tv/en/Crime/500518-Man-jailed-over-second-marriage-without-consent-of--first-wife)