QM Forum
The Quran => Women => Topic started by: Beyond Tradition on April 19, 2018, 08:05:33 PM
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Dear Brother Joseph
As-salamualikum ,
I have read many times discussed topics that Quranic verses has been translated directly to "beat" of Arabic word . You have opposed to accept the meaning as beat against Arabic word . But I like to know clearly that do Quran permit a man to beat his wife ( for any reason ) ? I will be very happy if you can relieve me of this frustration .
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peace,
Please tell us your conclusion once you have read:
http://www.quran434.com/wife-beating-islam.html
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Please be notified that, 'Idribo hunna' in Surah Nisa (4.34) can mean to 'shun - turn away from' (not necessarily to beat) and does not necessarily require a preposition 'an' for this meaning to be operative. For more justifications & renditions, see here, http://quransmessage.com/articles/a%20deeper%20look%20at%20the%20word%20dharaba%20FM3.htm
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Please be notified that if the meaning "shun / turn away from" is chosen it will result in issues. The following is a brief comparison to the "cite them" view:
"shun / turn away from"
This alleged usage in 4:34 occurs in 43:5 with the preposition "Aan", thus making Quran seems inconsistent IF it did mean that in 4:34
No identical example of this DRB usage in Quran
No explanation of how the authority are notified
Commands husband to shun / turn away from then promotes reconciliation in next verse, mixed message
It is unclear to what extent one shuns, how they can do so without being unjust etc
No supporting marital example in Quran
Impractical/illogical result when inserted into 4:128-130 and somehow requires iAAradan to be a positive thing and potentially makes Drb/3rD similar
"cite them" Quran434.com
Several identical examples of this DRB usage in Quran, including when humans are the direct object as in 4:34
Explains how the authority is notified by 4:35, and provides perfect logical/sequential coherence
No mixed message
DRB use is clear and simple to implement practically
58:1-4 provides perfect coherence in terms of marital example
When inserted into 4:128-130 provides a complementary practical and coherent solution
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Please be notified that if the meaning "shun / turn away from" is chosen it will result in issues. The following is a brief comparison to the "cite them" view:
"shun / turn away from"
This alleged usage in 4:34 occurs in 43:5 with the preposition "Aan", thus making Quran seems inconsistent IF it did mean that in 4:34
No identical example of this DRB usage in Quran
No explanation of how the authority are notified
Commands husband to shun / turn away from then promotes reconciliation in next verse, mixed message
It is unclear to what extent one shuns, how they can do so without being unjust etc
No supporting marital example in Quran
Impractical/illogical result when inserted into 4:128-130 and somehow requires iAAradan to be a positive thing and potentially makes Drb/3rD similar
"cite them" Quran434.com
Several identical examples of this DRB usage in Quran, including when humans are the direct object as in 4:34
Explains how the authority is notified by 4:35, and provides perfect logical/sequential coherence
No mixed message
DRB use is clear and simple to implement practically
58:1-4 provides perfect coherence in terms of marital example
When inserted into 4:128-130 provides a complementary practical and coherent solution
Firstly, 'Cite' as English is commonly defined as "to mention something as proof for a theory or as a reason why something has happened", which already and arguably falls under the previous injunction as '2nd person masculine plural imperative verb - faʿiẓūhunna' in verse 4:34. And also 'cite' (as you have mentioned) is appeared as unnecessary in context after the injunction "forsake the bed", as overall injunctions in 4:34 point to rapidly growing attempts.
Secondly, there is sentence "wa if you fear..." in between the verse 4:34 & 4:35, after which reconciliation matter has been dragged into consideration.
Thirdly, There are numerous verses in Quran giving proper detailed guidance on how to handle marriage bonds. Example is unnecessary in common sense. Will you demand example of making wudu (verse 5:6) from Quran?
Fourthly, A root word could have many renditions or meaning based on the context, which is primary & significant nature of any language. Why would you cut a whole tree just because of a dying leaf?
Quran 19:97,
"So We have only made it easy in your tongue that you may give good news thereby to those who guard (against evil) and warn thereby a vehemently contentious people."
So why are you making things complicated? Why can't you think or ponder with ease?
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Firstly, 'Cite' as English............
Before I reply, can you confirm you have understood what is meant by "cite them" as per Quran434.com?
Based on your reply I'm not sure you have understood what it meant. In case you haven't, I will quote below with a clarification:
Conclusion:
The men are supporters/maintainers of the women with what God bestowed on some of them over others and with what they spent of their money, so the righteous women are dutiful; guardians to the unseen with what God guarded. And as for those women you fear their disloyalty, then: (first) you shall advise them, and (second) abandon them in the bed, and (lastly) cite them. So if they obeyed you, then seek not against them a way; Truly, God is High, Great. [4:34]
And if you (authority) feared a rift between them two, then appoint a judge from his family and a judge from hers. If they both want to reconcile, then God will bring agreement between them. God is Knowledgeable, Expert. [4:35]
Part in bold underline refers to citing them (i.e. the spouse) to the authority for arbitration which is continued in the next verse 4:35.
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why dont we accept quran has a historical and cultural frame? its addressee is a desert village residents whom has very low idea of women. why are you putting yourself into trouble by forcing every ayat as universal? Hence putting yourself into trouble of going great lenghts to hack the meaning of words?
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peace,
Hence putting yourself into trouble of going great lenghts to hack the meaning of words?
This claim is often made, but I prefer evidence-based claims.
Rather than "hacking", think of it like uncovering buried treasure.
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Would you say this "disciplining" would also apply in the case of a trouble-making husband? If not, why not?
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Would you say this "disciplining" would also apply in the case of a trouble-making husband? If not, why not?
I'm not sure whom you are asking this question to but for my reply please see the link I referenced above. It specifically analyses and compares 4:34 and 4:128, and you may note something very interesting, briefly summarised below:
Quote from Quran434.com:
4:34
husband fears uprising/disloyalty from wife
---> advise ---> abandon in bed
---> (if still no resolution) idriboo/cite them
---> authority feared breach/rift (i.e. no resolution) thus appoint arbiters
4:128
if a wife feared uprising/disloyalty from husband
---> then no blame upon them that they try to reconcile between themselves
---> but if situation continues as is, i.e. no resolution, authority/arbiters can get involved (THINK: what would come before this step)
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I'm not sure whom you are asking this question to but for my reply please see the link I referenced above. It specifically analyses and compares 4:34 and 4:128, and you may note something very interesting, briefly summarised below:
Quote from Quran434.com:
4:34
husband fears uprising/disloyalty from wife
---> advise ---> abandon in bed
---> (if still no resolution) idriboo/cite them
---> authority feared breach/rift (i.e. no resolution) thus appoint arbiters
4:128
if a wife feared uprising/disloyalty from husband
---> then no blame upon them that they try to reconcile between themselves
---> but if situation continues as is, i.e. no resolution, authority/arbiters can get involved (THINK: what would come before this step)
Thanks! Interesting in-depth analysis in that link you posted :)
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Please be notified that if the meaning "shun / turn away from" is chosen it will result in issues. The following is a brief comparison to the "cite them" view:
"shun / turn away from"
This alleged usage in 4:34 occurs in 43:5 with the preposition "Aan", thus making Quran seems inconsistent IF it did mean that in 4:34
No identical example of this DRB usage in Quran
No explanation of how the authority are notified
Commands husband to shun / turn away from then promotes reconciliation in next verse, mixed message
It is unclear to what extent one shuns, how they can do so without being unjust etc
No supporting marital example in Quran
Impractical/illogical result when inserted into 4:128-130 and somehow requires iAAradan to be a positive thing and potentially makes Drb/3rD similar
"cite them" Quran434.com
Several identical examples of this DRB usage in Quran, including when humans are the direct object as in 4:34
Explains how the authority is notified by 4:35, and provides perfect logical/sequential coherence
No mixed message
DRB use is clear and simple to implement practically
58:1-4 provides perfect coherence in terms of marital example
When inserted into 4:128-130 provides a complementary practical and coherent solution
Shalom / peace Wakas ... You appear to suggest on your site that cite means 'cite the partner/situation to the authority.'......
1 - Do you have an example of any other place in the Qur'an where the verb 'idrib' means 'cite' as you have defined it? ... >>>
2 - Do you know of any lexicon in the entire Arabic language that provides the meaning of 'idrib' as you have defined it i.e. to mean 'cite'?
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peace,
Shalom / peace Wakas ... You appear to suggest on your site that cite means 'cite the partner/situation to the authority.'......
1 - Do you have an example of any other place in the Qur'an where the verb 'idrib' means 'cite' as you have defined it? ... >>>
2 - Do you know of any lexicon in the entire Arabic language that provides the meaning of 'idrib' as you have defined it i.e. to mean 'cite'?
Can you clarify if you have you read Quran434.com ? Or used http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm ?
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Can you clarify if you have you read Quran434.com ? Or used http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm ?
Yes.....The site... as best as I could and regards the PRLonline - quite a bit for my own study.... However, I'm hoping that you will help me answer my specific questions on this site....
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Shalom / peace Wakas ... You appear to suggest on your site that cite means 'cite the partner/situation to the authority.'......
1 - Do you have an example of any other place in the Qur'an where the verb 'idrib' means 'cite' as you have defined it? ... >>>
2 - Do you know of any lexicon in the entire Arabic language that provides the meaning of 'idrib' as you have defined it i.e. to mean 'cite'?
Any response to these 2 questions would be appreciated .... Thanks.
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Re: Q1)
From Quran434.com
3)
DRB + mathal = propound/cite an example/similitude/parable
[2:26, 13:17, 14:24, 14:25, 14:45, 16:74, 16:75, 16:76, 16:112, 17:48, 18:32, 18:45, 22:73, 24:35, 25:9, 25:39, 29:43, 30:28, 30:58, 36:13, 36:78, 39:27, 39:29, 43:17, 43:57, 43:58, 47:3, 59:21, 66:10, 66:11]
With regard to the translation of DRB in the above verses there is variation, depending on translator, e.g. some use variations in 17:48, 25:9, 43:58, 43:17.
4)
kathalika yadribu Allahu al haqqa wa al batila = in this way God propounds/cites the truth and the falsehood
[13:17]
For this verse some use "collides", "puts/shows forth" (e.g. Ibn Kathir), "points out" (e.g. Al Jalalayn).
All examples of DRB with a direct object and no prepositions mean "put/show forth", providing internal consistency of usage. And when used in the same way as 4:34, i.e. applied to a person in 43:57 and 2:73 it means the exact same thing. In 43:57 Jesus is the second object of the verb DuRiBa, and in this verse it is in the perfect passive form meaning the object received the action expressed in the verb, i.e. Jesus received DRB, i.e. Jesus was put/shown forth / cited/indicated (as an example) by those disputing. In 43:57 "mathala" could be considered an adverbial accusative that names or modifies the action of the verb. So the type of "darab" of the object "Jesus" is that of an "example". As we can clearly see a literal/physical striking of Jesus is nonsensical, and if we remove this modification of the verb, this shows when applied to a person as the object DRB on its own means to cite/indicate or put/show forth. A perfect match with 4:34 and 2:73.
Re: Q2)
http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
Daad-Ra-Ba = to heal, strike, propound as an example, put forth a parable, go, make a journey, travel, mix, avoid, take away, put a cover, shut, mention/declare/state, propound.....
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Shalom / peace Wakas,
So I had a look at the studyquran website and found a link to a concordance by Hanna Kassis .....
I checked .... out of all the specific verbs IDRIB (exactly the same form used in verse 4:34) that are found in the Qur'an ...... using cite the way you use it makes no sense in any of them ....
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2:60 (57) Strike with thy staff the rock
2:73 (68) Smite him with part of it
7:160 (160) strike with thy staff the rock'
8:12 (12) so smite above the necks
8:12 (12) and smite every finger of them
18:32 (31) strike for them a similitude: two men
18:45 (43) strike for them the similitude of the present life
20:77 (79) strike for them a dry path in the sea
26:63 (63) strike with thy staff the sea
36:13 (12) strike for them a similitude
38:44 (43) take in thy hand a bundle of rushes, and strike therewith
Only when MATHAL is added to the specific form IDRIB...... then the meaning cite can be taken like cite an example ..18:32 ; 18:45; 36:13.. but there is no mention of MATHAL in verse 4:34.
Also why would you need to 'cite' something in verse 4:34 when two other steps are already completed the first one being to admonish.... isn't that a form of cite already?..
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peace Duster,
The issues you raise are already addressed on Quran434.com
You claimed to have read it. See previous quotes along with more quotes below:
End Notes for Part 1
It has been shown that there is not one clear occurrence in The Quran in which "beat" is the meaning of DRB.
It seems that the default meaning of DRB is "to put/show forth (from one person/place to another person/place)". This core meaning fits into every occurrence, and thus could be seen as its basic/core meaning. Lane's Lexicon states that its meaning is "to put into commotion" which is similar. Of course, with various prepositions and subject matter, this basic meaning can be refined and better rendered depending on situation.
It is interesting to note from (11) and (12) that in similar contexts, The Quran switches from a non-literal/physical use of DRB (e.g. indicate) to a literal/physical use of DRB (e.g. strike / put forth / point out), by stating what the physical objects are and their interaction with the preposition "bi (with/by)".
The only verses in which the preposition "bi" is used with DRB are 24:31, 57:13, 26:63, 2:60, 7:160, 2:73, 38:44, 37:93, and in all these occurrences the meaning is a physical usage:
wal yadribna bi khumurihinna AAala juyoobihinna = and let them draw/cast with their covers over/on their chests [24:31]
wala yadribna bi-arjulihinna = and let them not strike/stamp/move with their feet [24:31]
fa duriba baynahum bi soorin = then put forth between them with a wall [57:13]
idrib bi AAasaka al bahra fa infalaqa = strike with your staff the sea, then it split/separated [26:63]
idrib bi AAasaka al hajara fa infajarat min hu = strike with your staff the rock, then vented from it (twelve springs) [2:60]
idrib bi AAasaka al hajara fa inbajasat min hu = strike with your staff the rock, then gushed from it (twelve springs) [7:160]
idriboohu bi baAAdiha = cite /point out him with some of it (the murder) [2:73]
Wa khuth bi yadika dighthan fa idribbihi wala tahnath = And take with your hand a handful, then collide /put forth with it, and do not incline towards falsehood [38:44]
Fa ragha AAalayhim darban bi al yameeni = then he turned upon them striking with the right hand [37:93]
There are two verses that may need clarification:
2:73 should be noted that a murder/crime is something specific and a real world tangible object and thus can be referred to as such. This might offer a possible reason as to why 2:73 was traditionally translated as it was, because if a murder/crime was not seen as a valid object/reference to DRB with, then the only other valid object would be the dead heifer.
38:44 the act of DRB upon what/whom is not specifically mentioned, thus several interpretations may have existed at the time. Once the true context and meaning is identified as shown previously, this aspect becomes self explanatory and what/whom is not needed.
It is interesting to note that these are the only two verses with preposition "bi" that require careful study in order to reveal the most likely answer, thus for these two verses it is likely several interpretations may have existed. If physical/literal strike was one interpretation, then these verses could have been used to favour a physical/literal striking in 4:34.
If DRB in 47:4 is taken as a physical strike as is commonly done, albeit as an idiom, then it would be the odd one out, as it does not use "bi". This gives further weight to the alternative understanding presented above.
Also why would you need to 'cite' something in verse 4:34 when two other steps are already completed the first one being to admonish.... isn't that a form of cite already?..
Your above quote contradicts what you thought previously:
You appear to suggest on your site that cite means 'cite the partner/situation to the authority.'
Allow me to quote form the conclusion given on Quran434.com with an explanatory note:
Conclusion:
The men are supporters/maintainers of the women with what God bestowed on some of them over others and with what they spent of their money, so the righteous women are dutiful; guardians to the unseen with what God guarded. And as for those women you fear their disloyalty, then: (first) you shall advise them, and (second) abandon them in the bed, and (lastly) cite them. So if they obeyed you, then seek not against them a way; Truly, God is High, Great. [4:34]
And if you (authority) feared a rift between them two, then appoint a judge from his family and a judge from hers. If they both want to reconcile, then God will bring agreement between them. God is Knowledgeable, Expert. [4:35]
The pronoun "them" refers to the same object in all three occurrences above, i.e. the woman/spouse. Thus you were correct when you thought:
You appear to suggest on your site that cite means 'cite the partner/situation to the authority.'
If you have read the site you will know there are marital dispute examples in Quran which complement the above understanding:
An interesting example also appears in 58:1-4 in which a woman argues with the prophet complaining about her husband, and how the husband has estranged/alienated her by claiming her to be as his mother's back, which was a practice of the time, making the wife unlawful for himself but also not technically divorcing her allowing her to remarry, i.e. leaving her stuck/suspended.
This is an interesting example because if we suppose this could be classed as a case of iAAradan/alienation or shiqaqa/breach/rift, then the next step the wife took was to cite her husband's behaviour/actions to the authority, which would have been the prophet at the time. The correlation is specifically with 4:129 which advises the husband not to leave her stuck/suspended and this is the EXACT situation described in 58:1-4, thus showing that in a situation of no resolution, the next step would be to cite the partner/situation to the authority. If we correlate this example to what the next step would be in 4:34, if the steps are followed and no resolution is forthcoming, the next step would be to cite the partner to the authority. This would explain how the court/authority knew of the situation between the couple in 4:35. Since 'idriboo them' is the only step in between "abandon them in bed" and the authority becoming aware of the situation, is there a Classical Arabic meaning of DRB that fits in the sequence? The answer is a resounding yes, as one of its primary and most common meanings is: to cite/propound, declare/mention, put/show forth, point out or indicate. As we can see, it is a perfect fit.
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Thanks for your thoughtful work, brother Wakas. :)
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Thanks for your thoughtful work, brother Wakas. :)
Thanks.
The example of 58:1-4 seals the deal for me, so to speak.
"cite them" is by far the most cogent understanding as per Quran.