QM Forum
The Quran => General Discussions => Topic started by: miracle114 on May 24, 2018, 07:04:51 PM
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Salaam all
I have read brother Joseph's post and I was happy with the analysis and found that contextually "layl" fitted what I believe is 81 odd verses with darkness which is a period af (somewhere) after sunset.
However recently I read somewhere that verse 91:4 is the definition of "layl" .
91:4 " by the night as it conceals it" the it here is the sun because the of the feminine "it" used in the Arabic. Therefore night is that part which coves the sun. I. E sunset
Would like to here your thoughts.
Kind regards
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Salaam,
I agree. لَيْلَ begins at sunset, when the sun becomes concealed (as confirmed by 91:4 and 92:1).
The Arabic calendar day (يَوْمَ) begins at sunset, and ends at sunset. يَوْمَ begins with لَيْلَ, followed by نهار. So لَيْلَ begins at sunset, and نهار ends at sunset.
نهار begins when the sun's brightness is revealed (91:3, 92:2), i.e., at the crack of dawn. From 2:187, it is the time when the first streaks of light ('white lines') become visible at dawn. And then we fast through نهار, until it ends and لَيْلَ begins, at sunset. We fast during نهار and can eat during لَيْلَ.
Peace
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Also, 11:114 becomes clear based on this understanding of لَيْلَ and نهار.
And observe the contact prayer at both ends of the daylight, and early part of the night.
Both ends of نهار are the times before sunrise and before sunset.
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Asalamu 3alykum
Dear brother Niaz
Your comments are truly appreciated. However I kindly dont agree with this comment and I think you would agree after reading the article below.
You said The Arabic calendar day (يَوْمَ) begins at sunset, and ends at sunset. يَوْمَ begins with لَيْلَ, followed by نهار. So لَيْلَ begins at sunset, and نهار ends at sunset.
Secondly one may argue that the two end of the daylight is fajr(dawn) and isha(the end of daylight well past sunset) and not before or at sunset because the light of the sky at that point is still considerably large and over covers most of the sky even though the sun has set.
Peace
When does a new day begin?
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1338.0
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Peace
Another point I would like to comment on is regarding verse 91:4
91:4 " By the night as it conceals it"
This could be a reference to the brightness(illumination) of the sun referred to in verse 91:1 and not the concealing of the sun itself.
Allah(swt) knows best.
I'd do think there is very strong evidence that night begins or approaches shortly after sunset and not when the sun has set.
Salam
FASTING IS PRESCRIBED UNTIL NIGHT NOT SUNSET
http://quransmessage.com/articles/fasting%20till%20night%20FM3.htm
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Wa alaikum salaam Hamzeh,
Thanks for sharing. I do not agree. It is an established historical fact that in Arabic and Hebrew, the calendar day yaum / yom [יום / يوم] lasts from sunset to sunset. This is an intrinsic part of Semitic tradition that predated the Quran. To deny this, necessitates believing that Arabs and Jews and Muslims spread out across the world somehow collaborated with each other to invent such a tradition after the time of the revelation of the Quran. Which to me is too incredulous a conspiracy theory.
And I do not find the 8 examples listed in the article as providing any support for this theory. On the contrary, I find it supporting yaum starting with layl.
- examples 7,8 - referencing 2:187 - is the best support that yaum starts with layl. The verse describes what we do during layl (eating), followed by what we do during nahar (fasting), thus completing one yaum of the fasting day.
- Examples 1,2,4 are in terms of our sleep-cycle or wakeful hours (fajr to 'isha, just like 24:58), and not related to the 24-hour yaum, or layl or nahar.
- example 3 is not related to the definition of yaum (i.e., whether layl comes first or not). But it actually supports layl starting with sunset, as we discussed here. I do not agree that هَا in 91:4 is describing that 'brightness' is concealed. The most visual experience we have is of the sun being concealed, and this is the event described over and over in the Quran.
- example 5 - It took me some time to wrap my head around this one. The article did not consider the case of the wind starting during daylight hours, but yaum starting with layl (i.e., picture 2, with a leading partial day instead of a trailing one). That will also be 7 nights and 8 days.
- example 6 - 97:5 - tells us that layl ends at fajr. (Which is consistent with 91:3, 92:2). It does not say that yaum starts at fajr.
In summary, there are only 2 verses from these examples that really refer to yaum - 2:187 and 69:7. 2:187 clearly supports layl first. 69:7 is inconclusive either way.
And I do not agree that such over-analysis built on the many "implies" is necessary. Nor that a conspiracy theory is warranted in this case. Quran is a clear and simple book, whatever is true will be evident and obvious.
And a note on 6:76. Venus is the third brightest object in our sky, with a magnification of -4, which is very bright. When an "evening star", it is visible to the naked eye even before sunset, and also visible just after sunset. Especially when it is higher up in the sky as it is at this part of the year.
Peace
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I'd do think there is very strong evidence that night begins or approaches shortly after sunset and not when the sun has set.
I'll focus on the two words - shortly after. Everybody agrees that night begins after sunset. So the question is how shortly is the "shortly". I agree with the article that "emergence of night as a gradual process which begins before total darkness". I believe (based on 91:4, 92:1, 2:187 and the historical pre-Quranic meaning of the arabic yaum and layl) that this "gradual process" has begun just (the minute) after the sun has set. And that daylight ends before sunset. Sunset is the event that separates the two durations of time.
The article appears to define "shortly" as "when stars / planets begin to appear but well before total darkness", specifically mentioning visibility of Venus. If this is the definition of "shortly", I agree with this definition too. Planets like Venus and Jupiter (magnification -4 and -2.5 respectively) are bright enough to be seen with the naked eye even before sunset.
So please share your definition of "shortly". Is it 1 minute? 2 minutes? 5 minutes? 30 minutes? And what do you base it on?
Peace.
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Asalamu 3alykum
It is an established historical fact that in Arabic and Hebrew, the calendar day yaum / yom [יום / يوم] lasts from sunset to sunset.
Yes I agree. But as the article illustrated the historical view on when the day begins does not seem to concur with how the Quran perceives when the day begins. Its not a big issue but as can be seen from the article with some academic research of the Quran one was able to see the way of how the Quran views when the day begins. I found this pretty amazing Masha'Allah.
This is an intrinsic part of Semitic tradition that predated the Quran
Possibly so. But that does not tell us much about how God views the day.
One important note that is mentioned in the article is that a 24 hour count can begin at any time of the day. This is absolutely true. Its just a relative point where any agreed community can start from and go from there. But whatever any community decides does not mean it is right or wrong.
We are just discussing how God views the day according to the Quran.
Similarly God views that there are 12 month in a year. Of course humans if they wished could of set a 20 month system. But in God's register/measure He measures it on a 12 month system.
To deny this, necessitates believing that Arabs and Jews and Muslims spread out across the world somehow collaborated with each other to invent such a tradition after the time of the revelation of the Quran. Which to me is too incredulous a conspiracy theory.
No this does not mean that they spread out across the world and somehow collaborated with each other to invent that tradition. It could simply of been in-situ before the Quran's appearance by the Jewish community and the Arab world could of adopted it. It does not mean its right or wrong. But that does not mean the Jewish community was following what God viewed the day to be commencing at. That way their ways and this just shows that the Arabs/Muslims were either not concerned with how God viewed the day or the topic did not come to light. God knows best.
examples 7,8 - referencing 2:187 - is the best support that yaum starts with layl. The verse describes what we do during layl (eating), followed by what we do during nahar (fasting), thus completing one yaum of the fasting day.
The night of the fast "laylata assiyam" means there needs to be a fast followed by a night and not a night followed a fast. I cannot wrap my head around it any other way. So my explanation is based of that understanding.
If we were to accept the traditional understating of a new day beginning at sunset(magrib) which is allegedly night(layl) then the phrase "laylata assiyam" (the night of the fast) would be somewhat problematic with the days of Ramadan because the night of the first fast would be entered into the second day of Ramadan. There was no fast followed by night in one full Ramadan day(yaum) if the day of Ramadan begins at night.
So in other words according to the traditional view first day of Ramadan begins at sunset(night) which is before the fast, then at dawn fasting begins which seems to be somewhere in the middle of the day, then not till sunset which is day two of Ramadan is when the relationship between spouses are permitted which is after the first fast.
I do not agree that هَا in 91:4 is describing that 'brightness' is concealed. The most visual experience we have is of the sun being concealed, and this is the event described over and over in the Quran.
What seems to conceal the sun is the horizon. As the sun moves down below the horizon it is no longer seen. But the brightness in the sky still seems to be there. The brightness of the sun even at its setting(magrib) still seems to cast its light to the other side of the horizon in the east.
The night over takes this brightness slowly very soon after the sun goes down. Its a matter of when one starts seeing that darkness that has started to appear somewhere in the sky. If there is no change right at sunset from the very moment before complete sunset in the colour and appearance in the sky then night has not yet begun. Not until something noticeable has begun to happen in the skies colour or appearance till the night begins in my humble opinion. Possibly due to the shadow of the earth in the sky or the disappearance of the suns light or brightness that illuminates.
The opposite starts to happen at dawn. The sun is still well below the horizon but its light starts to casts slowly over the sky till at one point night is no longer visible and daylight has taken over. This could still be before the sun has risen.
Where I live the difference in appearance seems to be 20 to 30 minutes.
example 5 - It took me some time to wrap my head around this one. The article did not consider the case of the wind starting during daylight hours, but yaum starting with layl (i.e., picture 2, with a leading partial day instead of a trailing one). That will also be 7 nights and 8 days.
The eight days mentioned in the verse is a complete 1 day cycle. You have to pick 1 point to start and end from.
If you start from dawn to dawn as a complete day (ayyamin), you get 1 night time in the middle of that day cycle. So the 8th day would be officially a day but punishment stoped before the night.
If you start from night(or sunset which is considered night traditionally) to night to be considered a complete day(ayammin), you get 1 day time cycle but 2 nights.
Hope you understand that position. Its not about daylight its about how one defines a day(ayyamin) from what start and what end and how many nights are in that cycle.
For example if one was to say a day starts at dawn and ends at noon that is considered one day(ayyamin). There would be no nights in that. Of course it won't make sense but just trying to give you the idea of whats going on.
And I do not agree that such over-analysis built on the many "implies" is necessary. Nor that a conspiracy theory is warranted in this case. Quran is a clear and simple book, whatever is true will be evident and obvious.
I don't think anyone has said any of this has been done on purpose or has been conspired in anyway. There just seems to be a different view from what the Quran recognizes.
The Quran also seems to be lenient on different systems. Take this for example,
18:25 "And they remained in their cave three hundred years and (some) add (another) nine."
Here we see that some people were adding the time as 300 years and some as 309 years. So in other words it might not be such a big issue as said before a 24hr or even 50 hr clock can start at any time but we are just focusing on how the correct system in God's perspective is viewed. Ultimately my concern is about if we should be fasting at sunset or till night. This does not have anything to do when the day begins
So please share your definition of "shortly". Is it 1 minute? 2 minutes? 5 minutes? 30 minutes? And what do you base it on?
The verse commands us to "thumma atimmoo assiyama ila allayli" and complete the fast till the night. Despite the different appearance in the sky in different zones of the earth, I wait till I notice a difference in the sky light and wait to see if any of the night or darkness starts to appear even a little indicates night approached or begun. I do not notice this till about 20 to 30 min. I also noticed that different seasons or months have differences. Some month show darkness appearing 10 minutes after the sunset if my memory serves me right.
Tthe other reason I support this view is that the magrib prayer and the ending of the fast are commanded in different terminology.
Because of that I find they have different times and arguably if they were expected to be done both at sunset, one may expect a detail on what is to be performed first, do we eat first, or do we pray first.
If I found the command of magrib prayer and ending the fast to be worded closely and yet the Quran did not detail what to perform first I would say then that would be an option and a tradition on what suits the people best. But that is not the case as the two requirements are worded differently on when to be performed.
I find this proves the Quran's veracity and details to be even more accepting.
At the end ones best approach are expected towards their duties.
Thanks for sharing your comments as well
Salam
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Peace
I gave this comment some more thought:
example 5 - It took me some time to wrap my head around this one. The article did not consider the case of the wind starting during daylight hours, but yaum starting with layl (i.e., picture 2, with a leading partial day instead of a trailing one). That will also be 7 nights and 8 days.
Please omit my previous comments as I am still trying to figure this out and there does seem some support for your reasoning as well.
At the same time I find there is a problem because if we take the punishment to start at the daylight hours but the day to start at night then yes it does seems there will be only seven nights but the punishment had ended on the 9th day of traditional system(day starting with night).
God knows best.
Salam
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Salaam Hamzeh,
I (strongly) disagree with this method of 'research' as you refer to it. It gets into the weeds pretty quickly, before contradictions and personal speculation can start dominating over any understanding that is gleaned from the Quran. I'll go into this later.
Since you seem to have extracted a ruling out of this exercise, I want to probe that briefly, to understand the practical utility of this ruling, and how it could be acted upon in our lives.
Despite the different appearance in the sky in different zones of the earth, I wait till I notice a difference in the sky light and wait to see if any of the night or darkness starts to appear even a little indicates night approached or begun. I do not notice this till about 20 to 30 min. I also noticed that different seasons or months have differences. Some month show darkness appearing 10 minutes after the sunset if my memory serves me right.
Thanks for the definition of "shortly". To me, "wait to see if any of the night or darkness starts to appear even a little" sounds good, except that it appears highly subjective, especially considering it is sometimes 10 minutes, or 20 minutes, or even 30 minutes even by your judgement. Unfortunately, I cannot call you to where I live to decide for me whether you see "even a little darkness" in the sky. So I have these questions ....
- How do you decide when it is time to break the fast? Do you stand outside looking at the sky, and come back into the house to eat when you are convinced there is "even a little darkness"?
- What about when you are breaking the fast as a group? Is one person nominated to decide? Or if at least one person in the group in the is convinced "any darkness" has started? Or you wait until everybody is convinced there is "little darkness"?
- Why do you think your definition/ruling does not contradict the conclusion in the article (quoted below) about when it is already night ... since planets are visible the minute after sunset and you don't need to wait 30 minutes or 20 minutes or even 10 minutes?
when stars / planets begin to appear but well before total darkness...
- For me, there is only one "turn off the light" moment - sunset itself - when there is a sudden and instantaneous onset of darkness. After that moment, the "growth of darkness" is a very gradual process, and no one moment is unique enough to pick out. What if I decide there is enough "even a little darkness" just after the glowing disk of the sun has disappeared? Especially if I can see Venus and Jupiter in the sky with naked eyes? Will I be breaking the fast prematurely or will God not accept my fast, according to your ruling?
I am asking these questions, because right now I google sunset time, and add a minute for rounding errors, and break the fast and it is simple and straightforward. Just wondering how you reconcile these uncertainties.
Peace.
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Salaam Brothers Hamzeh and niaz
Jzk for the lengthy replies. I have not had time to read and digest them but rest assured I will have a detailed look. :)
Really do appreciate your both time and input.
Kind regards
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Wa 3alykum assalam NIaz
My replies to your comments below
I (strongly) disagree with this method of 'research' as you refer to it. It gets into the weeds pretty quickly, before contradictions and personal speculation can start dominating over any understanding that is gleaned from the Quran. I'll go into this later.
Not sure if I understand what you mean but I'll see if I can comment or add to your input.
Lots of the times I assume research on certain topics don't just come out of nowhere. There is reasons behind it. For example their is differences in muslim communities in when they break their fast. As you know the shia sect has seem to capture a different understanding of the sunni sect when breaking their fast. Would it be wrong to see what has happened and why the differences? Where does one get the answers from? How can one pick a side?
Is there any guidance from the Quran that can be extracted for this specific topic? Masha'Allah there is those who study the Quran who seem to show evidence that even small topic like this have their correct answers from the Quran. Little did we know. It really does amaze me, when I see how the Quran deals with future problems that possibly did not exist before. It is like hidden wisdom between verses and stories that shed the answers for the differences that have developed over time.
Since you seem to have extracted a ruling out of this exercise, I want to probe that briefly, to understand the practical utility of this ruling, and how it could be acted upon in our lives.
Just to let you know and I'm sure you know this, but breaking fast at magrib is not agreed upon by all the sects in Islam today. I am not picking sides or trying to make a new ruling, but it came to me that the Quran has its own stance and seems to differ from both main sects. This does not seem to be uncommon to me anymore. So I actually am not to surprised that a totally different perspective can arise for different religious topics.
Thanks for the definition of "shortly". To me, "wait to see if any of the night or darkness starts to appear even a little" sounds good, except that it appears highly subjective, especially considering it is sometimes 10 minutes, or 20 minutes, or even 30 minutes even by your judgement.
The Quran does seem to give warrant to observe and sight the times of prayers and look for the new moons and so on. Especially as everyday differs from another day and the timing of prayers and breaking the fast changes. What did people do when they had no instruments of technology for the dhuhur and asr prayer? How could of they determined the times without looking at the sky? I don't think it was intended to be an exact time but a close time would be sufficient Insha'Allah. I find when God commands us to "complete the fast till night" one does need to use both reasoning and best intention to come to a solution to the command. This may very well be subjective but when everyone else does not seem to accept this interpretation one is forced into taking actions into his own hands.
How do you decide when it is time to break the fast? Do you stand outside looking at the sky, and come back into the house to eat when you are convinced there is "even a little darkness"?
To be honest their is times where I do, just to double check that I am standing on the side of caution. But once you get the first day covered then the other days become similar and one can set an approximation and possibly add a few minutes and make that a tradition in a house hold.
What about when you are breaking the fast as a group? Is one person nominated to decide? Or if at least one person in the group in the is convinced "any darkness" has started? Or you wait until everybody is convinced there is "little darkness"?
its pretty simple for me. I shared the information with those who around me and those who were willing to hear some accepted and some did not.
Those that agree with this opinion we set a bar or a relative point from after sunset and at least after the magrib prayer and break the fast then. Its not as complicated.
Also as times goes by one starts to understand and realize with who and where to break fast if people are in disagreement.
With those that agree with the night method may develop into a way of life and be adopted and spread.
I can also ask you a similar question, as to how does one go around about praying the magrib? Does one eat first or pray first? Who makes the ruling or is there a nominee to decide? The Quran does not seem to give guidance on that part. So in other words making a sunna/tradition/practice of something if the traditional concept is true is not prohibited. One does need to reason and be subjective at the same time.
There also seems to be some tradition involved in this method where it has been agreed that break the fast with for example dates, yogurt or water and then pray. So in this way the prayer is compromised first by the eating of the food by possibly a few minutes or so and some may eat first and pray later.
Why do you think your definition/ruling does not contradict the conclusion in the article (quoted below) about when it is already night ... since planets are visible the minute after sunset and you don't need to wait 30 minutes or 20 minutes or even 10 minutes?
The article has indicated that in the verse regarding prophet Abraham the word "The Arabic word 'kawkab'an' which in its indefinite form (as in 6:76) is used to imply a star or stars (12:4)" and not a planet. However in its "but in its definite form (al-kawkab) is also used to describe Venus which is an early twilight planet."
I do not see any stars in the sky after one minute the sunsets.
I set a relative point of time from sunset the first day of Ramadan and go from there as the sunset in Ramadan also changes a minute or two everyday as well. I don't change it everyday from 10, 20, or 30 minutes. I meant to say that from year to year I noticed darkness starts to appear anywhere from 10 to 30 minutes.
For me, there is only one "turn off the light" moment - sunset itself - when there is a sudden and instantaneous onset of darkness. After that moment, the "growth of darkness" is a very gradual process, and no one moment is unique enough to pick out.
That also seems to be a logical perspective. It may very well be night starts with the sunset. However I just choose to stay on the side of caution for the reasons listed in the article. Because magrib prayer is also commanded at sunset but commanded in different terminology and seems to be different than night. I would not condemn fasting till sunset but I myself do not feel satisfied as I feel I need to stay on that side where I am more safe because I myself have to admit the Quran seems to support a appearance of night by the word "layl" and could of used the term "sunset".
I also would like to say that I would not make a ruling but I also would welcome my family and close ones to fast till night as to stay on the side of caution and make it a way of life. Therefore if it was sunset we would be covering that command and if it was night we would be covering that command as well.
What if I decide there is enough "even a little darkness" just after the glowing disk of the sun has disappeared? Especially if I can see Venus and Jupiter in the sky with naked eyes? Will I be breaking the fast prematurely or will God not accept my fast, according to your ruling?
The phrase "complete your fast till the night" "ila layl" I find it means "to the approach of the night" and not when night has taken over. I understand the word "hatta" is used to mean "until". But verse 2:187 uses "ila". So there seems to be a difference between "ila" and "hatta".
I am not convinced that Venus or Jupiter or the stars are indictors of the night being started or not. I just feel that night is not synonymous with sunset.
So I myself cannot break the fast at sunset for reasons that may not be based on actual science but more on the wording and how to Quran differentiates between the magrib prayer and the breaking of the fast.
Also I would imagine myself in the days the Quran was being revealed, how would I of understood "ila layl"? Would I have had an understanding of a word that would mean "sunset" (ghurub shams). The articles shows that sunset was a word well know.
At the end God knows best.
Asalamu 3alykum and your welcome Miracle114
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- For me, there is only one "turn off the light" moment - sunset itself - when there is a sudden and instantaneous onset of darkness. After that moment, the "growth of darkness" is a very gradual process, and no one moment is unique enough to pick out. What if I decide there is enough "even a little darkness" just after the glowing disk of the sun has disappeared? Especially if I can see Venus and Jupiter in the sky with naked eyes? Will I be breaking the fast prematurely or will God not accept my fast, according to your ruling?
Shalom / peace ....
So I'm curious ....
What is your 'turn on the light moment ' then? The fast starts with the perception of the sky ....doesn't appear to be an exact science there so why should determining night be???
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Salaam Hamzeh,
Thanks for sharing how you decide how to break the fast. That is exactly what I was asking.
I can fully understand if you feel like you are erring on the side of caution, and feel comfortable with deciding to break your fast ("shortly") later than earlier, and have a personal rule of thumb for yourself to determine that time. I was just checking if there is some objective rule that you are following that would be violated by breaking the fast just after sunset. You have acknowledged that it is not the case, and that it is also logical perspective, although you are not personally convinced about doing so yourself. Which is fair enough.
The problem I see is when this is pushed as a ruling, especially when it is all based on personal speculation (more to follow on that). If you were not proposing such a ruling, sorry for the misunderstanding.
And I am not asking to pick a side in sectarian opinions. Those opinions by their own admission, are based on the rulings of imams and fuqaha, which often overrule the Quran. So the sectarian divide is irrelevant. But I do say pick the side of default/original meanings/usage of words, especially if there is no sectarian disagreement on that (e.g., yaum).
Also I would imagine myself in the days the Quran was being revealed, how would I of understood "ila layl"? Would I have had an understanding of a word that would mean "sunset" (ghurub shams).
Thats a good question ... if you knew from knowledge of the language that yaum started at sunset, and started with layl first, how would you have understood? Note that you would not have the benefit of internet articles that told you that what you knew then was wrong. I appreciate the initial intrigue on God's choice of words, in His Infinite Wisdom. But I chose to move beyond the intrigue when I realize that layl immediately follows ghurub shams; without going through multiple hoops to try to create some distinction, "even a little".
In a follow up post, I will elaborate on my reservations with the method of understanding this issue itself, and what I see are speculations/inconsistencies, insha allah.
What is your 'turn on the light moment ' then? The fast starts with the perception of the sky ....doesn't appear to be an exact science there so why should determining night be???
Duster, the 'turn on the light moment' is the first ray ("thread") of scattered daylight ... which science defines as the start of 'astronomical twilight' (sun 18 degrees below the horizon). I did not say it is not a perception in the sky. I was asking for how the perception is defined/described.
miracle114, I am not a fan of long articles or explanations myself ... sorry it could not be more condensed.
Peace.
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Duster, the 'turn on the light moment' is the first ray ("thread") of scattered daylight ... which science defines as the start of 'astronomical twilight' (sun 18 degrees below the horizon). I did not say it is not a perception in the sky. I was asking for how the perception is defined/described.
Shalom / peace. ...The Arabs wouldn't have access to the science definitions of today so it would have all been perceptions as to whey the fast started. Therefore ...for those who argue they need a set point for when the fast ends should know that the fast doesn't start at a set point but a perception so why shouldn't it end in that way? ..ie perception. Allah could have said eat and drink till sunrise but He didn't.
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Shalom / peace ....The new Quranic day seems to start from dawn...
Surah Qadr Verse 97:5 "(The night is) Peace until the rising of the dawn." Please read with the rest of the verses of the sura as well ...
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science defines as the start of 'astronomical twilight' (sun 18 degrees below the horizon).
From a Quran's perspective though ... this article argues that nautical dawn is a better indicator of Quranic dawn .....
http://quransmessage.com/articles/fasting%20and%20ramadan%20FM3.htm
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Salaam Duster,
I never said "we need a set point thats not a perception". I repeat one more time, I only asked for the definition or description for what you are perceiving. Please do not put arguments into my mouth. Its lengthy and complicated as it is, it is harder defending things I never said.
If you prefer nautical twilight, go for it.
Also, I already addressed 97:5 ... please read the responses, it is clear you haven't been reading them :D. 97:5 confirms that layl ends with fajr. It does not say that yaum begins with fajr. The "seems to" part is called speculation. Its an unwarranted inference to force a preconceived conclusion.
Peace.
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Shalom / peace Niaz ..Apologies - didn't intend to put words in your mouth so please don't take it that way...
However, still not seen clear proof from the Quran that yaum begins with sunset either. That too IMHO is unwarranted inference and speculation to force a preconceived conclusion / confirmation bias ....I can't see how a new day begins after sunset either.
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Salaam Hamzeh,
These are my comments on the method of understanding the Quran itself ... and why I strongly disagree with the method I see followed for this issue (and some others). I apologize for having to do this ... I didn't see another way communicate what I was saying, other than doing a full-blown critique.
I would approach the Quran as a simple reading, and take the evident, obvious, explicit instructions and meanings, and avoid implications and speculations not stated explicitly. And realize that God guides us to its understanding - it is a spiritual endeavor and not an academic one. God says Quran is clear and easy to understand, and that is how we should expect it to be. There should be no need for complex analyses or elaborate articles. Also use the default, common, known meanings of words, unless there is compelling, explicit evidence to change it. Ideally, we shouldn't be needing to do anything more than point to the verses to share an evidence, and maybe elaborate with a sentence or two if we still could not get across what we wanted to communicate from a verse. If we are needing to do more than that, it means we are reading into it things that are not there. I am sure this resonates with you too - I have found this forum to be relatively sober, and thats the whole reason I visit here - maybe we only disagree on where this principle is applied.
And not nitpick over trivial things, to the point of them losing their significance all together. Usool-ul-fiqh is full of it ... the fact that their sources are other than the Quran is only part of the problem. Dozens of trivial things that nullify prayer or ablution or fasting etc. They justified speculation and conjecture in the name of methods like "qiyas" and have elaborate arguments for their rulings. Also in Quranist circles, I have seen a lot of arguments on what things are "not", without any clarity on what they are. They indulge in so much speculation and "research" as they see it, they end up not knowing what something is, but are very clear on what it is not. For example, after elaborate and intricate analysis of "sujood", they know that it is "not physical prostration". It is very hard to extract from them what they think it is, they themselves do not seem to know what it is, yet the are certain it is "not physical prostration". Similarly Salaat is "not ritual prayer". Ramadan is "not the 9th Arabic calendar month". Kaaba is "not the cube shaped masjid in Mecca". Qiblah is "not the direction of prayer". The list goes on. I see some parallel between these and the emphasis here on "not sunset". It can be anything and arbitrary, anywhere between when "even a little" darkness starts to appear to "before total darkness". But the darkness that sets in at sunset won't count for "even a little", and if you agree with that, then you are seen as picking sectarian sides!
In the process, I see a lot of clutching at the straws, speculation and inconsistencies to force this conclusion, which I try to summarize below.
- Meaning of yaum regardless of sectarian position, is sunset to sunset, and layl followed by nahar. Which means that sunset separates the end of nahar and the beginning of layl. That is enough reason to use this as the default position. But it was abandoned with the claim that there is "no explicit support from the Quran", to open the doors to speculation.
- There is no verse that explicitly redefines the word yaum differently from the meaning above. Yet, numerous inconclusive "examples" are listed that each individually have no bearing on or connection with the definition of the start of yaum or layl (we discussed them - 1,2,3,4,6).
- Unwarranted inferences, using elaborate diagrams, based on 69:7. But considering only two of the four possible combinations of when the wind started vs. when layl starts were considered. For example the wind starting at dawn and yaum starting at sunset (a leading partial day), which is also 7 nights and 8 days was not considered. (You partially understood my explanation here - you just need to recheck the math again).
- 2:187 strongly supports the definition of yaum in #1.
Permitted for you during the nights of fasting is intercourse with your wives. They are your confidants and you are their confidants. God knew that you used to betray your souls; hence He has accepted your repentance and has forgiven you. From now on you can have intercourse with them and enjoy what God has decreed for you. And eat and drink until the white line can be distinguished from the black line at dawn. Then complete your fast till night. ...
As seen in the verse, the description of the night of the fast (in blue) followed by the fast (in red). Still you say "there needs to be a fast followed by a night and not a night followed a fast. I cannot wrap my head around it any other way."
Which is OK, but it is just a convention. Night first in a calendar day is just as valid as daylight first. Similar to reading left to right or right to left. Your inability to wrap your head around it is not reason enough to make it wrong. - 91:4 and 92:1 are consistent with this meaning of layl, when understood that layl is covering the sun, with the pronoun ha a continuation for its usage for the sun in 91:1-3. But you said that it should not be taken as the sun, but the "brightness", but offer no reason why it should be so. OK, fine, lets try that then. Then layl by your understanding should start after the brightness in the sky disappears - i.e., with the onset of total darkness. When you realize this contradicts the Quran, instead of correcting your understanding of 91:4 back to "covers it" meaning the sun, you say the brightness does not have to be covered. Instead you decided that "even a little bit of darkness" is sufficient for night to start. Which is an inconsistency and contradicts the meaning you proposed for 91:4. And the "even a little bit of darkness" is an arbitrary decision - personal speculation - which cannot be attributed to God or to the Quran.
- The article posted defined the start of night (its words) as "when stars / planets begin to appear" (from 6:76). But you have the problem that planets are visible just after sunset. Now you decided that kawkaban cannot refer to a planet, since it is not the definite form. This is not evident from the Quran, since al-kawkab is not used anywhere in the Quran. Nor from Lanes Lexicon. Lanes lexicon states the definite form al-kawkab refers to Venus, but note that it does not make this distinction between planet and star, when it uses the word 'stars' loosely for celestial objects, including the planets and Jupiter (maybe the artifact of being a 19th century publication). This does not mean that indefinite form cannot mean planet at all. Even if Venus has been designated for reference in the definite form, the indefinite form may refer to any planet or star. Exclusion of planets from the meaning is arbitrary. From the account of 6:76, it seems more logical that Abraham would refer to the brightest object he saw in the night sky, rather than a star thats far fainter.
There are all these hoops to jump through, lined up as ducks in a row, to avoid the observation that layl starting after sunset is indeed consistent with the Quran. As discussed above, they all involve speculation or inconsistencies. And after all that, there is no way around admitting that the removal of the sun's glow at sunset is the onset of at least "even a little" darkness.
I understand the point that God used layl and not ghurub, and there is no problem taking a second look to check if is really means sunset or not. But finally, its God's choice - we cannot teach Him what words to use, or tell God "if You wanted us to break fast after sunset, you should have used use this word and not that". And I understand if someone still wanted to interpret layl as starting later, and followed that accordingly. But this concerted effort to declare that it can be anything under the sun but not "just after sunset", with complicated articles full of unsubstantiated conjecture just blows my mind. All for the petty result of breaking the fast 10-30 minutes earlier or later.
Peace.
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However, still not seen clear proof from the Quran that yaum begins with sunset either. That too IMHO is unwarranted inference and speculation to force a preconceived conclusion / confirmation bias ....I can't see how a new day begins after sunset either.
This is proof - take it or leave it ....
- If the meaning of the word yaum in the Arabic language, is sunset to sunset, consisting of layl followed by nahar, we should take that meaning. Quran is not a dictionary to redefine every word.
- Nevertheless, 2:187 clearly describes the "night of the fast" as preceding the actual fast during daylight. Color coded for your convenience. How much clearer should it get?
Permitted for you during the night of the fast is intercourse with your wives. They are your confidants and you are their confidants. God knew that you used to betray your souls; hence He has accepted your repentance and has forgiven you. From now on you can have intercourse with them and enjoy what God has decreed for you. And eat and drink until the white line can be distinguished from the black line at dawn. Then complete your fast till night. ...
- Observe that even siyam is not defined per se, nor is what is forbidden during it is explicitly listed. God describes what you already know, and its meaning can be "confirmed". People were already fasting even before this verse was revealed, and already knew what siyam meant. And sexual intercourse was previously prohibited on the "night of the fast" (i.e., the night preceding the daylight when they fasted). Through this verse, God removed this prohibition, and sex was permitted on the night preceding the daylight fast. And we can "confirm", although it is not explicitly stated, that sex, food and water are prohibited during the daylight fast that follows. Likewise, the meaning of yaum is also confirmed as layl (eat, drink, sex permitted till fajr) followed by nahar (fast from fajr till nightfall again).
- And finally. 91:1-4 makes it clear that night starts with when the sun is concealed. Which is clearly when the disk slips beneath the horizon.
By the sun and her brightness. And by the moon as it follows her. And by the daylight as it reveals her brightness. And by the night as it conceals her.
- An alternate interpretation proposed is that the "her" in 91:4 refers to the "brightness" in 91:3, and not to the "sun". If this were true, and night starts when the sun's "brightness" is concealed, then night should start only with total darkness. We all agree that this contradicts the Quran. So the "her" in 91:4 cannot be the brightness, but refers to the sun itself, just like in 91_1-3.
Peace.
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This is proof - take it or leave it ....
You haven't provided any concrete proof IMHO .. I can say the same about you not taking proof.
Your highlighting things isn't making it any better either. An article was already shared with you earlier in the thread that described when the day starts .. but of course, you are not going to believe it and instead, start attacking it with phrases like "unwarranted inferences, using elaborate diagrams" or "with complicated articles full of unsubstantiated conjecture just blows my mind"
I think your biggest problem is that Allah didn't say 'ghurub shams' or something similar when that could have been clearly stated...... On one side you say the Quran is simple or that you "would approach the Quran as a simple reading, and take the evident, obvious, explicit instructions and meanings" and not to "nitpick over trivial things" or "lot of clutching at the straws, speculation and inconsistencies to force this conclusion" and yet..... when it comes to the Quran saying fast to LAYL instead of SUNSET, you are not willing to take your same approach and apply it ....but get a huge discussion over when the Islamic day starts ...
Also, this term night of the fast can easily mean the nights between the fasts. It doesn't need hoops to jump through to understand this.
Finally - you talk about Arabic language .... look up lanes lexicon and the meaning of 'yaum' and you'll see what it says as a primary meaning "and day, meaning the period from the rising of the sun in its setting" That is the 'common conventional acceptation' or from 'dawn to sunset'
Shalom / peace
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So summary IMHO thus far:
1. Sunset is not synonymous with night. Neither is this proven from the Quran nor is it proven from the classical Arabic dictionaries
2. The Quran uses precise language and Allah doesn't run out of words either .. the words sunset or sun and its setting are terms that have been used by the Quran ........
3. We could be better off discussing when layl should reasonably begin.....does one wait a little for the sunsets hue to disappear to separate the two? how long - 10-20 mins seems reasonable. Shall we use stars or planets as a guide? Can the community or a people come to a consensus like those from the Jafari school of thought have on this issue....?
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Salaam Duster,
Thanks. Lane also lists "a civil day; the period of revolution of the greatest firmament", which is nothing but the 24 hour day.
From: "Ibn ‘Arabi - Time and Cosmology"
https://archive.org/stream/IbnArabiTimeAndCosmology/Ibn-Arabi-Time-and-Cosmology_djvu.txt
However, as already noted, Ibn ‘Arabi did observe that there was a difference between the Arabs and some non- Arab ( ‘ ajam ) groups in their conventional definitions of the ‘day’, in that the Arabs considered the day to extend from sunset to sunset, while others considered it to extend from sunrise to sunrise. So for the Arabs, the night precedes daytime, while for non-Arabs it is the reverse. This matter has no effect on the length of the whole day itself, but its implications do have an effect on the actual unit of day and especially on its spiritual and symbolic meanings, because For the Arabs and the Arabic timing, it has been traditionally agreed that the night precedes daytime, ...."
What I described, I illustrated with specific examples, and I have specifically responded to every single point listed in the article. You have not specifically replied about 2:187 explicitly specifying a sequence, or 91:4 explicitly describing night as covering the sun, so I don't see the point of continuing that discussion.
Peace
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You have not specifically replied about 2:187 explicitly specifying a sequence, or 91:4 explicitly describing night as covering the sun, so I don't see the point of continuing that discussion.
I've provided enough responses. I don't work on your demands or anyone else of what should and should not be responded to if I think it futile ..... I've made my points clear which are more pressing for me .....
I've referred you to the classic definition which clearly lists primarily when the day starts i.e. Fajr You pick and make reference to an 'also'. Fine by me but it's not convincing. Sorry.
I've made a clear point - Why did Allah not say sunset when similar words are found in the Quran .. You appear not to press up on it ... Fine by me ....
If you don't see the point of continuing the discussion ...pity ...as it's an important topic to discuss. Therefore on the same basis that you haven't provided any convincing evidence either from the Quran or classical dictionaries that sunset is definitely the point from where the new day starts ... then I also see no point in continuing the discussion with you on the matter.....That too .. fine by me .....
Shalom / peace.
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Salam.
Hope, these verses were already taken in consideration where it is said that one of the features of day is `visibility'. At sunset visibility still exists. Doesn't it? (This is also pointed out in brother Joseph's article.)
10:67 He is the One Who made for you the night that you may rest in it and the day giving visibilty. Indeed in that surely (are) Signs for a people (who) listen.
27:86 Do not they see that We have made the night that they may rest in it, and the day giving visibility. Indeed in that surely (are) Signs for a people (who) believe.
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Peace
Thank you brother Duster for sharing your perspective. I think you made some strong points which should be considered.
Brother Niaz you have also put forth some good points to ponder about. Thank you for sharing your approach as well. I have read your comments and Insha'Allah I will comment on them in due time. I am not dismissing them but I have some questions to them and you also can see the points being made by brother Duster as well.
I think we all seem to share a common approach and find that we agree on many key points. May God accept all our best approaches Insha'Allah.
Thank you brother Munir as well
Jazak Allah Khair Insha'Allah to you all
Salam
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Salaamun 'alaikum,
Thanks Hamzeh. Looking forward to your comments. Just one clarification regarding the classical definition of day, in response to Duster.
I've referred you to the classic definition which clearly lists primarily when the day starts i.e. Fajr You pick and make reference to an 'also'. Fine by me but it's not convincing. Sorry.
Lane provides different usages of يَوْمٌ. One is as a synonym for nahar (daytime or daylight hours), when "the sun is above the earth", from sunrise [or dawn] to sunset. I am not debating that yaum has this usage as a synonym of nahar. And it is interesting that in this usage, 'daytime' clearly ends at sunset.
I am talking about the other usage as the 24-hour calendar day, for one full rotation around the earth (which Lane refers to as "a civil day"). The question is what is the definition the "civil day"? I claim that the classical definition, which predated the Quran and common to Arab and Jewish traditions, is "sunset to sunset" and "night preceding daytime". Lane did not mention a specific definition for the "civil day". The definition from Ibn Arabi I quoted confirms that this is the classical definition. Even the article agreed that this is the standard (or "popular" as it liked to call it) definition.
يَوْمٌ A time, whether night or day; (Mṣb;) time absolutely, whether night or not, little or not: this is the proper signification: (Kull, p. 390:) and day, meaning the period from the rising of the sun to its setting; (Lth, TA:) the time when the sun is above the earth: this is the common conventional acceptation: (Kull, ubi suprà:) and the period from the second [or true] dawn to sunset: (Mṣb, Kull:) this is the legal acceptation: (Kull:) and a civil day: the period of the revolution of the greatest firmament. (Kull)
Again, I was trying to communicate my disagreement with the approach/method of interpreting/understanding the Quran in the article (link below), not the conclusion per se. So I went down the path of a detailed critique, I was not trying to "attack" for the sake of it as Duster seemed to suggest. And it was not my intention to upset or offend anyone.
Peace.
When does a new day begin?
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1338.0
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peace all,
91:4 " by the night as it conceals it" the it here is the sun because the of the feminine "it" used in the Arabic.
No-one refuted the above.
Also discussed here:
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1152.0
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peace,
And observe the contact prayer at both ends of the daylight, and early part of the night.
It is more accurately "near/proximal parts (Arabic plural, i.e. more than 2) of the night".
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Peace,
https://www.almaany.com/en/dict/ar-en/%D8%B2%D9%84%D9%81%D8%A7/
Original Text: زُلْفًا | Meaning: Early parts [Koran Words]
https://www.almaany.com/quran/11/114/5/
[النسخ بالإنجليزية] wazulafan [المعنى بالانجليزية] and (at) the approach
http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=11&verse=114
Sahih International: .... and at the approach of the night.
Yusuf Ali: ... and at the approaches of the night:
Shakir: ... and in the first hours of the night;
Muhammad Sarwar: ... and at the beginning of the night.
Arberry: ... and nigh of the night;
Early part(s) | approach(es) | first hour(s) | beginning are all accurate translations of زُلْفًا. I get your point about Arabic plural, but an accurate translation is one that the conveys the nuance of meaning in a particular context accurately, not necessarily one that attempts to captures all parts of grammar, while failing to convey that meaning.
I am not suggesting that your translation is not "accurate", but cautioning against hair splitting.
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peace,
Let's test the translations you provided to see if they are accurate:
Being "near/close/proximal" to something requires a reference point, i.e. "near/close/proximal" to what?
According to the Arabic in Quran 11:114, please provide the reference point. Thanks.
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Peace,
I did not provide the translations. These are major available translations of the Quran and the meaning from almaany (the default dictionary used for the word-by-word translation of the Quranic Arabic Corpus project).
When the night starts, there is the "early part" or "first hours" or "beginning" or "approaches" of the night, when darkness gradually "approaches" before total darkness sets in. Then the rest of the night is total darkness. This already make perfect sense, and I do not see any need to "test" these translations any further.
"Near" does not appear to be the best English word to convey this - but you can look at it as the "near" or "closer" end of the night if you wish, i.e., the first part of night you encounter at night fall.
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peace,
This already make perfect sense, and I do not see any need to "test" these translations any further.
Firstly, just because something makes "perfect sense" to someone it does not mean it is correct. Secondly, we should always be willing to put translations to the test.
Since you did not answer my question, I will answer it myself. According to the Arabic of 11:114 the ONLY object/reference for "near to what?" question is "tarafay al nahar" (two/both edges of the daytime), NOT the sunset edge as you and many others interpret it. Quite simply, that is a made-up reference point that does not exist in the Arabic.
Thus, a more accurate translation is:
"... two/both edges of the daytime and the proximal/adjacent/near/close parts of the night..." i.e. the proximal/adjacent/close parts of the night to BOTH edges of the daytime, not only the sunset edge.
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what i find very odd is that both the people who believe that we must break our fast at night and those who believe we must break it at sunset use the exact same verses / terminology of the koran to explain two totally different points of view.
the author of the following post believes in taking our commandments only from the koran yet he believes that fasting ends at sunset. i hope his argument helps u in any way. after reading mr joseph's argument ,u can then choose which u feel is more correct to ur heart.
http://www.quran-islam.org/articles/part_3/night_start_%28P1369%29.html
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what i find very odd is that both the people who believe that we must break our fast at night and those who believe we must break it at sunset use the exact same verses / terminology of the koran to explain two totally different points of view.
I agree that one must do the research for oneself then decide for oneself but when faced with the above situation you describe I sometimes find it helpful to make a pros/cons list for each side of the argument to see how it stacks up. Then simply total up the pros/cons, the unanswered questions, the number of assumptions each argument has etc. Makes it easier.
Sometimes there can be a smoking gun, e.g. in this thread:
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2545.msg13314#msg13314