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The Quran => General Discussions => Topic started by: Student on August 05, 2018, 10:24:30 PM

Title: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
Post by: Student on August 05, 2018, 10:24:30 PM
Salaamun Alayka,
Dear Sir Joseph,

I hope you're doing well by God's grace. I just finished reading today's Quran portion and the passages was covered includes ayahs 37:100 t0 37:113. I do not see a break in the sequencing of events told and the flow of ayahs, so how do you see a break? First without naming a son's glad-tiding is given (37:101) and the whole dream of sacrifice is narrated and then again with the name Ishaq AS a glad-tiding is given (37:112) right after narrating the sacrificial event to clearly imply and separate the two sons. To me it looks completely two different sons and two different glad-tidings with first being unnamed (Ismaeel or whoever was his first son) and then birth of Ishaaq AS a new and second son, isn't it?

Also, you do not subscribe to the command of sacrifice in the dream as Divine source but the passage seems to clearly implies it was from God as I see it
1. Falamma Aslama, (submitted to who, if not God & His command?)
2. Saddaq tar-ruya, (attested/confirmed the dream, confirmed to who, if not God?)
3. Najzee al muhsineen, (rewards for doing good work, why is God rewarding and patting him for something not from Him?)
4. Balaaa ul-Mubeen, ( clear, manifest, severe test, from whom if not God?)

Looking forward to your clarification with the hopes that you'll come across this thread and spare few minutes here, inshallah  :)
Title: Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
Post by: Wakas on August 09, 2018, 02:41:20 AM
Previous thread touched upon these issues:
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=620.0
Title: Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
Post by: Student on August 14, 2018, 08:33:20 AM
Thanks Br Wakas, I did not find the verse being discussed or debated when looked up/searched with verse number.

One of your questions which matches mine went unanswered by Sir Joseph. Anyway, I do think it was literal slaughtering. If Bible is not read into this passage it is hard to find support of Ishaq being the sacrificial offering but Ismael is also at best an implied outcome.

I'm curious to know his view on these begging questions.
Title: Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
Post by: Student on August 21, 2018, 05:37:04 AM
The key word I did not use in my first post is "chronological" - the events seems to be in chronological order and also another question is if the dream is not from God simply on the ground that God doesn't issue such test/command then how do you reconcile the killing of the boy at the hands of servant of God in surah Kahf while imparting Musa AS knowledge. He said he didn't do all of this on his own but on God's command.
Title: Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
Post by: Duster on August 21, 2018, 06:57:48 AM
how do you reconcile the killing of the boy at the hands of servant of God in surah Kahf while imparting Musa AS knowledge. He said he didn't do all of this on his own but on God's command.

Shalom / peace .. when Allah takes the life of any human being whether it is a child or adult, He doesn't come to earth to do it .... He has appointment emissaries that carry the task out for Him .....>>> We do not know the identity of the 'servant' in Surah Kahf. There is no proof he was a human ....... Often Allah's messengers have carried out his tasks in human form ... Just think of the way the messengers came to Lot in human form and how they destroyed the town ...
Title: Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
Post by: Student on August 21, 2018, 12:57:33 PM
Salaam Duster,

Yes, I agree and that is fine. The objection/question to Sir Joseph's article is
1. Dream is from God (apparently)
2. The slaughter son was not Ishaaq AS (could be Ismail AS or one of elder son before Ishaaq's birth).
Title: Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
Post by: Duster on August 22, 2018, 09:56:55 PM
Shalom / peace Student ...... I'm not sure what you are expecting when brother Joseph has already laid out a detailed view of his opinion in the following article.

http://quransmessage.com/articles/ishmael%20or%20isaac%20FM3.htm

Either you agree with it or disagree.... I'm not sure what else can be debated here?
Title: Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
Post by: Duster on August 23, 2018, 06:56:15 PM
Shalom / peace Student ... with regards your opening post and the questions you have raised ......I have taken input from brother Joseph's forum link below to answer your questions ......>>

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=178.msg473#msg473



1. Falamma Aslama, (submitted to who, if not God & His command?)

They submitted to what they thought was a commandment from Allah .... If Abraham (as) knew the dream was from Allah, then why did he ask his son for advice? Why not simply act on the commandment????

2. Saddaq tar-ruya, (attested/confirmed the dream, confirmed to who, if not God?)

A vision that they thought was from Allah

3. Najzee al muhsineen, (rewards for doing good work, why is God rewarding and patting him for something not from Him?)

They submitted to what they thought was a dream from Allah ... I suppose this is no different from the Christians becoming monks even though Allah never ordained it .. but they were still rewarded for it .... Look at verse 57.27. So what I'm saying is that you can still be rewarded for good works (or as you say patting them for something) if the intention was to submit to Allah.

4. Balaaa ul-Mubeen, ( clear, manifest, severe test, from whom if not God?)

Of course it was a major trial ... A murder / sacrifice was about to be committed which Allah intervened and stopped ...
Title: Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
Post by: ilker on August 29, 2018, 10:16:38 AM
Salamun alaykum all,

I’d like to express my personal opinion about something brother Duster mentioned above. I don’t think Abraham pbuh asked for his son’s advice literally. We know Abraham pbuh was rather tender-hearted (11:74-75). He always talked to his father in the best way possible. He even told him that he would ask Allah swt for his forgiveness after he realized how bad his situation was. In my opinion, after the dream and before the sacrifice attempt he nicely tries to speak with his beloved son to calm him and let him know about what will happen soon. We understand from his way of speech that he loves his son very much.

Honestly, I never got the idea of him seeking advice from his son when i read these ayat. But of course Allah swt knows best and may He guide us to the right if we are wrong. Maybe I’m wrong.

Take care inshaAllah.
Title: Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
Post by: Duster on August 29, 2018, 01:41:04 PM
Salamun alaykum all,

I don’t think Abraham pbuh asked for his son’s advice literally.

Shalom / peace Ilker ....... please see where I also feel that the advice was sought ... I've highlighted the part in bold


And when he reached with him [the age of] exertion, he said, "O my son, indeed I have seen in a dream that I [must] sacrifice you, so see what you think." He said, "O my father, do as you are commanded. You will find me, if Allah wills, of the steadfast." 37.102

Title: Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
Post by: Student on September 05, 2018, 12:25:49 AM
Salaam Duster,

Thanks for your clarification and fetching and sharing links on the subject.
I need Sir Joseph's help to reconcile few things from his understanding of this story:
1. Why he's rejecting OT's narration (it was God's command) which Quran strongly and implicitly confirmed whilst correction (a dream and not direct) (All of which is part of beauty and style of the Quran)
2. Why he think it's Ishaaq (isn't this from OT?) while Quran is not explicit in naming the sacrificial son? Why he think 'Basharna' (good news) in 37:101 means birth of a child and 'Basharna' is only good news but not actual new birth in 37:112?
3. Why he think God would not command killing/sacrificing anyone (4:66 gives that possibility and 18:74 preemptive killing) in order to test their faith and true love and loyalty? Why can't we interpret the dream was shown from God (as a lesson for posterity) to demonstrate Ibrahim's AS true love & devotion in purpose and never in actuality as in His knowledge God would have intervened the slaughter anyway?

It came to pass after these things that God tested Abraham and said to him, “Abraham!”

He said, “Here I am.”

He said, “Now take your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go into the land of Moriah and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains that I will point out to you.” (Genesis, 22:1-2)

Quote
it becomes difficult to reconcile why a name would be necessary in 37.112 when it is absent in 37.101, if both verses are capturing the birth of new children

In my humble understanding, Quran is correcting OT and would be Muslims here to highlight it wasn't Ishaaq as OT had it or Ismail as Muslims believe it but underscoring a son is a son slaughtering any son is unimaginable test and not simple as you (Duster) think even for extra-ordinary Ibrahim AS to just submit to God's command as his own life wasn't asked to lay down (Had that been the case I would believe Ibrahim AS wouldn't even blink for a moment). He had to consult and get his son's consent.
Title: Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
Post by: Athman on September 09, 2018, 05:05:44 AM
Dear Student,

Peace be upon you,

I think Br. Duster has aptly responded to your original arguments against the position assumed by Br. Joseph on this remarkable incident captured in the Abrahamic scriptures, which in the main, is also mine. It is within this common acknowledgement that I share to you my thoughts on two of your last contentions. As to who was to be the sacrificed son, Br. Joseph has appreciated the fact that this has long been classically debated over though he argues for the position of Isaac (pbuh) based on a counter-argument to the traditional Ismaeel’s position founded on mainly the following contentions:

“In the story regarding Prophet Abraham and his son, if we are to take verses 37:101 -113 and understand them to capture three personalities, i.e. Prophets Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac, why does the Quran only mention the blessing on two personalities at the end of the narrative (i.e. Prophets Abraham and Isaac - 37:113)? 

Why is this reference 'exclusive' only to Prophets Abraham and Isaac and not 'cumulative' with a view to include Prophet Ishmael, who after all, was ready to be sacrificed and is subject the continuing theme of what the Quran seems to be narrating?

037.113
"We blessed him and Isaac..."

Verse 37:109 even recognises specific salutations on Prophet Abraham for his trial, however there is no mention whatsoever of Prophet Ishmael.” [1]

“...it becomes difficult to reconcile why a name would be necessary in 37.112 when it is absent in 37.101, if both verses are capturing the birth of new children...” [1]

God willing, maybe Br. Joseph will share more contentions against the traditional view when available and where necessary.

Kindly see my views on two of the arguments you raise which I find opposed to the way I do understand the subject matter.

You say:

1. Why he's rejecting OT's narration (it was God's command) which Quran strongly and implicitly confirmed whilst correction (a dream and not direct) (All of which is part of beauty and style of the Quran)

Firstly, I think one has to appreciate that arguing on a matter from a Qur’an’s perspective foremost is not automatically ‘rejecting’ a particular stand of another source on that issue. Rather, it is actually establishing the same from a muslim’s/believer’s primary religious authority. Whether an opposing view is extracted as a result is a separate issue - the Qur’an’s stand has to be established first, especially considering its overarching perspective on the same.

Clearly, as you have rightly pointed out, the Qur’an confirms the incident while at the same time clarifies on it being as resultant from a mere dream and not as a direct command from God as the New Testament seems to suggest.

...when he was tested, offered up Isaac...” (NKJV, Hebrews 11:17)

The above 'test,' slaughtering of Prophet Isaac (pbuh) by Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh), is elsewhere understood as an actual command from God where it is suggested that his faith (to God) was justified by his works (submitting into carrying out the sacrifice). 

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?” (NKJV, James 2:21)

However, the Qur’an’s position on it being a ‘vision’ in a ‘dream’ can also implicitly be supported by the Old Testament in the narration you shared. In Genesis 22:3, Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) is said to have ‘risen’ early in the ‘morning’ the following day, ready for the sacrifice. One could argue that he may have possibly envisioned it in a dream that night before waking up the following morning.

In totality, the Qur’an confirms what is actually truly captured in the older scriptures (3:3) and clarifies/rectifies where it was not clear (5:48), where necessary (5:15). In this case, it says that the sacrifice was witnessed in a dream (37:102).

I have seen in a dream (araa filmanami) that I sacrifice you...” (Qur’an, As-saffat 37:102)

You share:

3. Why he think God would not command killing/sacrificing anyone (4:66 gives that possibility and 18:74 preemptive killing) in order to test their faith and true love and loyalty? Why can't we interpret the dream was shown from God (as a lesson for posterity) to demonstrate Ibrahim's AS true love & devotion in purpose and never in actuality as in His knowledge God would have intervened the slaughter anyway?

About the ‘manifest trial’ (balau al-mubeen) on Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) to slaughter Prophet Isaac (pbuh), the contention here is not on the ‘submission in purpose’ acknowledging the dream as from God, of which God Himself appreciates (qad swadaqta ar-ru'ya), rather, it is against the mere alleged ‘command’ from God to Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) and Prophet Isaac (pbuh) on the same.

Often, God qualifies commands associated with grave undertakings as like that of killing. For example, in 5:33, ‘killing’ (qital) is cited for believers as a retribution option to those waging war against God and His Prophet (yuharibuna Allaha warasulahu), striving to spread corruption in the land (fil ardhwi fasadan). In 2:178, ‘killing’ is cited as a legal retribution to a murderer. Again in 2:190-194, one notes that the killing or mere fighting (qital) in the context ‘against fitnah’ is qualified by ‘but do not transgress.’

On the other hand, if read in context, 4:66 is in the remit of mobilization (4:71) into fighting to the possible point of being martyred (4:69 (as-shuhadai), 4:72 (shahidan)). It is not only ‘kill yourselves’ but also ‘leave your homes,’ suggesting mobilization - to those hypocritically retiring to their homes - into fighting where a possibility of some being ‘killed’ in the process is given.

And if We had decreed upon them, ‘Kill yourselves’ or ‘Leave your homes,’ they would not have done it, except for a few of them. But if they had done what they were instructed, it would have been better for them and a firmer position [for them in faith].” (Qur’an, An-Nisa 4:66)

However, if one is to read ‘kill yourselves’ out of the scope of mobilization of the hypocritical lot at home into fighting, a viable context has to be identified to justify the ‘killing.’ In this case, it is not directly given, and therefore, to claim a random unqualified order to killing themselves (one another) seems non-sequitur. To support such a position, we see a similar illustration in the case of the People of Prophet Musa’s (pbuh) time where he ordered a mass killing amongst themselves (2:54). To get a clear position as to who were to be the subject of such a recompense, one only notes from the narration how transgressing the people were to a point of worshipping a calf despite the many signs conveyed to them (this is utter ‘kufr,’ with a Prophet in their midst - 5:33). Therefore, clearly, the ‘victims’ were to be the transgressors amongst themselves. Nevertheless, the Qur’an says that they were forgiven. See also 4:153. This is contrary to what is captured by the bible where a 3,000-people massacre is cited (Exodus 32:27-29).

As for the ‘preemptive killing’ in 18:74, one immediately notes from the Qur'anic narrative that it was not arbitrary but qualified. The boy would have been an overburden to his parents into ‘transgression’ (thwughyanan) and disbelief (kufr). In my opinion, this would amount to dire ‘fitnah' to the parents, a possible equivalent of a 'fasad' to the wider society/ in the land. After all, the narration here captures the incident while progressing on a particular theme, not the theme of ‘justified killing’ per se but that of 'wisdom and foreknowledge' granted to some of God’s chosen servants (72:26-27).

And as for the boy, his parents were believers, and we feared that he would overburden them by transgression and disbelief. So we intended that their Lord should substitute for them one better than him in purity and nearer to mercy.” (Qur’an, Al-Kahf 18:80-81)

You conclude:

“...(Had that been the case I would believe Ibrahim AS wouldn't even blink for a moment).”

I respectfully disagree with your underlying premise on this. Suicide and unjustified massacre is actually detested (6:151) and prohibited in the Qur’an (4:29). In fact, one who unjustifiably kills themselves/believer is doomed to eternal Hell and indefinite punishment from God (4:93).

O you who have believed, do not consume one another's wealth unjustly but only [in lawful] business by mutual consent. And do not kill yourselves [or one another]. Indeed, Allah is to you ever Merciful.” (Qur’an, An-Nisa 4:29)

As to killing for ‘fasad fil ardh’ or ‘hadd/qisas against murder’ (5:32), in my humble opinion, a believer should always bear in mind that a ‘legal retribution’ law supersedes a seemingly ‘morally’ inhumane view on recompense. In fact, legal laws always guide objective morality.

Regards,
Athman.

REFERENCE:

[1]
. Qur’an 11:71 Isaac and Ishmael
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=976.15
Title: Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
Post by: Student on September 09, 2018, 07:22:43 AM
Thanks dear Athman, my forum search somehow doesn't yield all relevant threads - the thread you kidnly shared clears up my contention and now Alhumdulillah I'm inclined to accept it was Isaac as OT mentions clearly and Quran acknowledge implicitly in its own style.

Quote
Why is this reference 'exclusive' only to Prophets Abraham and Isaac and not 'cumulative' with a view to include Prophet Ishmael, who after all, was ready to be sacrificed and is subject the continuing theme of what the Quran seems to be narrating?

037.113
"We blessed him and Isaac..."

However, I'm still not convinced why God being God could/would not ask to lay one's life or one's loved ones life in order to test. Are we not restricting God's realm (Nauzubillah) of what He can and cannot ask? God in His infinite knowledge and wisdom would have intervened and stopped it. So, my humble understanding is
This way not only does Quran corrects Biblical narrative but it also confirms it. The dream was never a command to kill or a sacrifice as a religious rite (for Ibrahim AS and posterity) and was never meant to be of that nature. It was a mere test from God, otherwise it's hard to swallow as to how Ibrahim AS being a person of immense rationality would go this far to slaughter his son on a mere non-Divine or obscure dream. The words of Ismael AS ""O my father, do as you're commanded" is a strong indicator of the source/story he heard from his father. Wallahu Alam!
Title: Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
Post by: Hamzeh on September 09, 2018, 12:36:31 PM
Asalamu 3alykum Br. Athman

Thank you for sharing your perspective. I really enjoyed reading your responses and found them very convincing Masha'Allah.

The only part I would have to kindly and respectively not fully agree is this:

Quote
As for the ‘preemptive killing’ in 18:74, one immediately notes from the Qur'anic narrative that it was not arbitrary but qualified. The boy would have been an overburden to his parents into ‘transgression’ (thwughyanan) and disbelief (kufr). In my opinion, this would amount to dire ‘fitnah' to the parents, a possible equivalent of a 'fasad' to the wider society/ in the land. After all, the narration here captures the incident while progressing on a particular theme, not the theme of ‘justified killing’ per se but that of 'wisdom and foreknowledge' granted to some of God’s chosen servants (72:26-27).

“And as for the boy, his parents were believers, and we feared that he would overburden them by transgression and disbelief. So we intended that their Lord should substitute for them one better than him in purity and nearer to mercy.” (Qur’an, Al-Kahf 18:80-81)

One thing from the many messages and wisdom that can be extracted from this narrative, is that only God knows why things happen.

Of course the parents of the boy would of never seen the burden and transgressions of the child and would of cried for him like any other parent would of for their child and would not of known the future.

But God is relating a narrative that gives the message that not always what seems wrong is wrong and that there is times that something has to happen so that things work out the way God plans and to help His righteous servants and to trial them.

Also the commands were not ordered to prophet Moses(pbuh).

It is possibly and most likely not a human. As we know Angels are presented at times as Humans.

Also the servant had revealed that " I did it not upon my own command" 18:82.

So I do find that God has always ordered "Justice" to His creation. What The Almighty God commands and does is not the same as what humans do. God also makes it clear that He commands

16:90 Allah commands justice, the doing of good, and liberality to kith and kin, and He forbids all shameful deeds, and injustice and rebellion: He instructs you, that ye may receive admonition.



Other than that I think you had done a great job explaining the topic. Mash'Allah. May God bless you

Salam  :)

Title: Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
Post by: Joseph Islam on September 09, 2018, 04:12:03 PM
Dear All,

As-salamu alaykum

I trust that many will kindly appreciate that at times, my silence on a particular thread or question directed at me is deliberate. One of the reasons governs my humble desire to provide as much opportunity for diverse discourse to take place on a topic (collective wisdom to be imparted by others).

Thank you brothers Wakas, Ilker, Duster, Hamzeh and Athman for your responses and contributions to the thread.

Enjoyed reading them  :)

May God bless you all.

Regards,
Joseph
Title: Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
Post by: Student on September 10, 2018, 01:49:55 AM
Walekumus salaam,
Dear Sir Joseph,

Indeed I'm grateful for all the forum members who share their knowledge and wisdom (spending their valuable time) in helping us understand the Quran better. Thank you for making this platform available for this sort of discussion and I totally understand and respect your preoccupation and commitments and your deliberate silence  :)

I really appreciate if you could throw light on questions that goes without answer or remain open with follow-up questions - couple of threads I initiated is looking for your help if you will ;D

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2594.msg13438#msg13438

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2592.msg13482#msg13482
Title: Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
Post by: Hamzeh on September 10, 2018, 03:34:14 AM
Assalamu 3alykum

Dear Br. Athman

I apologize for a wrong assumption on my behalf as I realized you did notice the theme of the verse to be that of wisdom and foreknowledge.  :)

Quote
After all, the narration here captures the incident while progressing on a particular theme, not the theme of ‘justified killing’ per se but that of 'wisdom and foreknowledge' granted to some of God’s chosen servants (72:26-27).

Dear Br. Student

You should read this brilliant article(Masha'Allah) below[1] as I really think it will help you to determine if the dream of prophet Abraham(pbuh) was from the Almighty God or not and will aid you Insha'Allah to understand how at times prophets and messengers may of received inspiration.

You will notice that possibly even they had to discern at times between inspirations that they received. Were the inspiration from the Almighty Lord or the whispers of the evil ones? (May The Almighty Lord protect us from the evil ones Insha'Allah)

For example even prophet Muhammad(pbuh) was asked not to doubt what is being revealed to him.

10:94 So if you are in doubt, [O Muhammad], about that which We have revealed to you, then ask those who have been reading the Scripture before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters.

However its clear that Gods messages will always be established despite the strategies of the evil ones.

22.52 "And We did not send a messenger or a prophet before you, but, when he desired, Satan threw (proposed / suggested) something into his desire: but God abolishes what Satan throws (proposes / suggests) and God will confirm (and establish) His signs / verses. And God is All-Knower, All-Wise”

Hope that helps Insha'Allah


Dear Br. Joseph

Its always a pleasure to hear from you :). May God bless you and your family as well.

Asalamu 3alykum


[1]HOW DID GOD'S AGENTS (PROPHETS & MESSENGERS) RECEIVE INSPIRATIONS?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/inspiration%20FM3.htm
Title: Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
Post by: Athman on September 10, 2018, 04:03:42 AM
Dear Student,

Peace,

You say:

"However, I'm still not convinced why God being God could/would not ask to lay one's life or one's loved ones life in order to test."

From my humble view, I encounter a theological impasse where God is said to have unjustifiably sanctioned an 'evil' action, which He heavily detests and prohibits due to His infinite mercy (4:29, 6:12), in the name of a mere 'trial.' A soul (nafs) is said to be 'sacred' and taking it should only be for a just course - wala taqtulu nafsa al-lati harramallaha illa bilhaqi (6:151).

You again ask:

"Are we not restricting God's realm (Nauzubillah) of what He can and cannot ask? God in His infinite knowledge and wisdom would have intervened and stopped it."

Respectfully, no true believer can even think of a limit to God's infinite capacity. However, as believers, we understand God's essence and qualities from what is informed of us in the Qur'an. Ascribing to God things that would conflict with how we understand about Him would be unjustifiable.

Acknowledging that God would have 'stopped' a certain evil undertaking given His infinite knowledge and wisdom is in essence agreeing to the fact that nothing would have been justifying that particular undertaking for Him to intervene. However, in His infinite wisdom, God would still qualify a particular seemingly morally unethical undertaking for it to even be instructed as of a 'test' or "legal law." I earlier on shared the following, " 'legal laws' always guide objective morality." In this case, not only is the alleged 'killing' command unqualified but also, nothing specific is cited as being proved nor is any particular truth being attested to/manifested. Appealing to a test of faith in Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) appears inconclusive.

It is then said:

"So, my humble understanding is 
The dream was from God Himself to test Ibrahim AS to the point of sacrifice and not to allow the sacrifice itself (this doesn't conflict with 5:32 or associating anything immoral with God)"

The ascription of an immorality aspect to God is not the issue here, we do have objective morality after all. Certain legal injunctions would a times not feel palatable to some people. This is not an issue though. To believers, religious legal laws always supersede our worldviews. Nonetheless, the contention is on the unqualified instruction to 'kill,' no matter if the actual action was later intervened.

You share:

"The sacrificial son was Ishaaq ASThis way not only does Quran corrects Biblical narrative but it also confirms it. The dream was never a command to kill or a sacrifice as a religious rite (for Ibrahim AS and posterity) and was never meant to be of that nature."

You are right that the dream was never to be interpreted as God's 'command' that would give rise to a religious rite nor was it to be in the nature of 'actual slaughtering.' However it is argued that it was not even to be interpreted as a command from God, in the first place.

You then say:

"It was a mere test from God, otherwise it's hard to swallow as to how Ibrahim AS being a person of immense rationality would go this far to slaughter his son on a mere non-Divine or obscure dream."

It was truly a 'manifest trial' yes, but only in the sense that Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) and Prophet Isaac (pbuh) had 'submitted in purpose' that it was from God and that they were about to actually undertake such a grave action.

You conclude:

"The words of Ismael AS ""O my father, do as you're commanded" is a strong indicator of the source/story he heard from his father."

From my humble view, the son's (pbuh) captured utterances in the verse (37:102) only support the notion that he submitted in purpose to what was thought of to be a command from God. Though the Qur'an supports the idea that a times 'dream visions' could be from God (48:27, 8:43), in 22:52, God ascertains to the fact that Satan's whispers could also challenge His prophets. However, He confirms inspirations from Him and abolishes Satan's whispers.

"And We did not send before you any messenger or prophet except that when he spoke [or recited], Satan threw into it [some misunderstanding]. But Allah abolishes that which Satan throws in; then Allah makes precise His verses. And Allah is Knowing and Wise." (Qur'an, Al-Hajj 22:52)

In summary, my main contention would be:

If it is to be understood that God can instruct 'anything' including evil/unethical things in the sense unjustifiably for purposes of tests, with the condition that it would otherwise be intervened, can one cite at least a single unequivocal instance of such a possibility from the Qur'an to substantiate such a claim?

Regards,
Athmani.
Title: Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
Post by: Athman on September 10, 2018, 04:21:44 AM
As-salaam alaikum,

Dear Hamzeh,

It is my pleasure seeing that you were resonating a similar sentiment in your last comments. As for your first one, it was even better you re-highlighted that argument.


Dear Br. Joseph,

Wa alaikumus salaam,

Thanks for the acknowledgement and space granted. May Allah shower His blessings and grace upon you and your family too insha Allah.

Regards,
Athman.
Title: Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
Post by: Student on September 10, 2018, 01:08:31 PM
Dear Athman,
Peace on you as well,

It's not from God simply because it's "unethical and evil" so may I what/who's the source of the dream in your understanding?
Title: Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
Post by: Athman on September 10, 2018, 09:54:00 PM
Dear Student,

Peace,

With all due respect, I am quite baffled that with the arguments presented hitherto in response to your contentions, you cast my humble position to that of a ‘simplicity’ undertone.

You contend:

"It's not from God simply because it's "unethical and evil" so may I what/who's the source of the dream in your understanding?"

Honestly, I do recognize the seriousness of the incident and its derived sensibilities amongst Muslims which basically stem from individuals’ own theological leans. This is why my shared humble thoughts appear as above.

As regards to what God ‘can’ do or not do, you may agree with me that you and I have once been through a similar discussion [1] in which we never reached an agreement. Therefore, I’m kindly inclined to make this discussion not pursue that route. It does seem that from your theological lean, God does anything. In the main, albeit I somehow basically agree with you on this, I do admit that we actually don’t share a common ground for the notions held [1]. I think this is our main point of theological disparity which if not bridged, I am afraid that we mutually can't go on an any constructive discussion. We can as such just agree to disagree on issues pertaining to our theological leans. You can refer to my basic understanding of ‘capability’ in the context of God in a thread [2] below.

From my humble perspective, as a particular example in this case, God does not instruct immorality/evil/excessive sin (fahishatan) (7:28).

And when they commit an immorality (fahishatan), they say, ‘We found our fathers doing it, and Allah has ordered us to do it.’ Say, ‘Indeed, Allah does not order immorality (la ya’muru bil fahshai). Do you say about Allah that which you do not know?’ ” (Qur’an, Al-A’raf 7:28)

In contrast, Satan does whisper evil (2:268).

Satan threatens you with poverty and orders you to immorality (wa ya’murukum bil fahshai), while Allah promises you forgiveness from Him and bounty. And Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing.” (Qur’an, Al-Baqarah 2:268)

To ascertain His orders/commands, Allah always confirms them (22:52) over Satan’s, for His will always prevail (58:21). In Prophet Ibrahim’s (pbuh) case, while God intercedes a possible Satan’s guile for a concession (37:107), He makes prevail His will (no actual sacrifice). However, the piety/reverence/submissiveness (taqwa) portrayed by Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) is acknowledged and rewarded (37:105) as is always (22:37).

Dear Br. Student, my contention still remains:

(1). If it is to be understood that God can instruct 'anything' including evil/unethical things in the sense unjustifiably for purposes of tests, with the condition that it would otherwise be intervened, can one cite at least a single unequivocal instance of such a possibility from the Qur'an to substantiate such a claim?

In addition;

(2). If it is asserted that it was God who commanded the sacrifice via the ‘dream vision,’ can one unambiguously point out particularly where in the Qur’an?

Regards,
Athman.


REFERENCES:

[1]. seeing  allah in jannah

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2421.msg12889#msg12889
[2]. Can God create another God like himself if he wanted to
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2576.msg13355#msg13355
Title: Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
Post by: Student on September 11, 2018, 03:50:28 AM
Salaamun Alayka
Br Athman,

I apologize as I never meant to convey you didn't took seriousness/sensibility of the incident. Let me clear few things again:


As far as other things, I completely concur with you/your arguments on Reference #2 and on Reference#1, I made my argument and left the discussion seeking Sir Joseph's view on the subject quoting his understanding and definition of Liqa....whether or not he applies & extend it consistently to this subject.....still waiting  :)

This is exactly what I wanted to see as an answer to my question (rephrasing here): Whom/what do you think the source of the dream was?

Quote
To ascertain His orders/commands, Allah always confirms them (22:52) over Satan’s, for His will always prevail (58:21). In Prophet Ibrahim’s (pbuh) case, while God intercedes a possible Satan’s guile for a concession (37:107), He makes prevail His will (no actual sacrifice). However, the piety/reverence/submissiveness (taqwa) portrayed by Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) is acknowledged and rewarded (37:105) as is always (22:37).

I must admit the answer is more convincing than all those lengthy discussions...however I'm still not 100% convinced it wasn't from God simply because I don't see/take this command as an evil/unethical/immoral at all. It was a momentary but momentous test for a lesson for believers captured in OT and Quran for posterity.

If you still disagree with that argument then how would you explain the following?

Quote
(1). If it is to be understood that God can instruct 'anything' including evil/unethical things in the sense unjustifiably for purposes of tests, with the condition that it would otherwise be intervened, can one cite at least a single unequivocal instance of such a possibility from the Qur'an to substantiate such a claim?
You may find parallel in the grand scheme/purpose of creation (creation of Satan and his progeny as they're and Adam and his progeny as we're) - isn't creation of Satan and allowing him to mislead mankind to the brim of Hell more evil (Nauzubillah) than a father's test of love and loyalty?

Your explanation of 18:74 is still unsatisfactory from ordinary human and even from a great Prophet's perspective and to your own standard of "justified killing", regardless of theme killing an innocent boy is still shocking and an event of mocking God for the atheist and disbelievers alike for the same reason as yours. 

Seeing this conundrum people like br Wakas are forced to interpret the whole event completely out of box  :D

In the end we're all good Alhumdulillah, those who see it as evil disassociate it from God and those (like me) in the grand scheme of things doesn't necessarily see it as an evil at all but a test (2:155) for ordinary and direct and severe for extra-ordinary like Ibrahim AS.
Title: Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
Post by: Duster on September 11, 2018, 05:57:14 PM
Shalom / peace Student...

Just one point to comment on ...

You keep mentioning brother Joseph mentioning the Quran confirming the Bible but he has always provided context for it.

If he says Isaac was the boy to be sacrificed but the vision was not from Allah YOU MAY SAY why is the Quran not confirming the source of the vision which in the Bible is from God

But if he said Ishmael was the boy to be sacrificed and Allah did send the vision (Like you believe I assume), then STILL The Quran will not be confirming the Bible as the Bible says the boy was Isaac....

So the point is that the Quran will always be confirming and correcting the Bible when it sees fit....

Brother Joseph also mentions clearly in his articles that the Quran also corrects the Bible when it's appropriate

Quote
There are many examples in the Quran where the narratives seem to correct an existing 'Biblical' understanding. For example, 1 Kings 11 describes Prophet Solomon (pbuh) straying into idolatry.

http://quransmessage.com/articles/harut-marut%20FM3.htm

So clearly in this instance, brother Joseph's view is that the Quran is confirming the boy to be sacrificed as that being the same as the Bible but not confirming explicitly that the vision was from Allah. I don't see the problem in this position......

And let us not forget ...... that nothing can happen without Allah's will ... so even if a Satanic whisper or dream got to a person, Allah would have allowed it as Satan can't do anything of his own will. No one in the Universe and beyond can ......
 


Title: Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
Post by: Athman on September 11, 2018, 11:12:34 PM
Dear Br. Student,

Wa alaikumus salaam,

Without overlooking what has been shared by Br. Duster (Jazakallah for the contribution), see my responses below.

You say:

"I did not raise question on 2nd part of the story at all - whether the command was/wasn't from God"

Originally, you said, I quote “...passage seems to clearly implies it was from God as I see it

In my opinion, the follow-up phrases you cited were earlier aptly responded to by Br. Duster, to which I feel you haven’t given a befitting rebuttal. See my response below to your question “Did Quran say the dream was from Satan?

"I did not raise question on 2nd part of the story at all - whether the command was/wasn't from God"

Kindly refer to my response to your question ‘1.’ above please.

"I am here as a humble student of the Quran befitting my user/profile name , not other way around  "

Nor is anyone claiming to be a teacher dear brother. We all are students of the Qur’an which, in the main, should be the criterion (teacher for that matter) as God’s word in our midst - the Prophet (pbuh) is not here to rest authority over a particular position on certain issues (16:44). Therefore, please, let’s keep the discussions. Where we seem not to reconcile, let’s just simply agree to disagree.


"This is exactly what I wanted to see as an answer to my question (rephrasing here): Whom/what do you think the source of the dream was?"

My response was given above to which you even expressed some little conviction as quoted below.


"I must admit the answer is more convincing than all those lengthy discussions...however I'm still not 100% convinced it wasn't from God simply because I don't see/take this command as an evil/unethical/immoral at all. It was a momentary but momentous test for a lesson for believers captured in OT and Quran for posterity."

Respectfully, I find it strange that you seem to expect short responses yet some of your comments appear much protracted like this one which has covered other acutely unrelated topics below. One can’t always have set pet replies that address specific subjects. Even where there is, elaborations are essential since different people could interpret a particular verse differently given their theological backgrounds, lines of thought, information so far accessed, etc. Anyways, you may choose to pass over some if you feel obliged to.

Being seemingly evil or not, the contention is that it was not from God (6:151, 4:29, 5:32). You haven't either substantiated your claim that it "was a momentary but momentous test for a lesson for believers captured in OT and Quran for posterity"


If you still disagree with that argument then how would you explain the following?


Did Quran say the dream was from Satan?

With due respect, I see this as actually a case of shifting the burden of proof. The original position is that it was just a dream that was never meant to be interpreted as a command from God. Now, if your response is on the affirmative as regards whether the command in the dream was from God, you are the one to prove it. As for the dream in itself as a dream (inherently), I think Br. Duster clarified above. Even if somethings is as a result of Satan’s whispers, God is the ultimate Decreer of its manifestation. Now, this doesn’t amount to ‘it was from God.’

What was the original dream before Satan's corruption? In your words: He makes prevail His will (no actual sacrifice) - what was God's original will in this whole incident?

I didn’t say that there was an ‘original will’ of God nor an ‘original dream.’ I just meant that the ‘decision’ made out of the dream was never approved by God and therefore, this (disapproval) was actually actioned through preventing it (the sacrifice) happening.

Why did God allow satanic inspiration to the point of slaughtering?

As believers, I don’t think it is appropriate for us to question God why He does decree things at certain points of time and not others. The basic and vital understanding is that He actually does such and such things, no matter where and when. For that matter, one could even ask as to why God allowed Prophet Yusuf (pbuh) to get to the verge of being given into his Master’s wife (wahamma biha) where he was ‘shown’ his Lord’s proof (12:24).

Why didn't God correct the corrupted story of OT in the Quran and allowed to remain ambiguous for dual interpretation?

For the sake of the discussion, I would be more inclined to ask as to why God would even cite Prophet Isa’s (pbuh) verbatim mentioning the Prophet (pbuh) by his name (Ahmad) in the Qur’an (61:6) whereas it was never captured in any historical manuscript before in that form. As a result, ‘multiple’ interpretations are made and read into the Bible by Muslim apologetics. See also Br. Duster’s citation of Br. Joseph’s argument in another thread above.

Anyways, as a believer, I do find respite in 5:15.

“O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our messenger making clear to you much of what you used to hide of the scripture and overlooking much (waya’fu ‘an kathirin)...” (Qur’an, Al-Ma’idah 5:15)

Did Quran say they "submitted in purpose" or simply"submitted"?

Now, this seems to be an act of academic dishonesty on your part. It appears odd denouncing/dismissing this position while you actually used the same interpretation earlier when you vouched for a particular understanding. I quote:

Why can’t we interpret the dream was shown from God (as a lesson for posterity) to demonstrate Ibrahim’s AS true love & devotion in purpose and never in actuality as in His knowledge God would have intervened the slaughter anyway?

After all, the word is ‘aslama’ literally ‘submitted.’ In this case, it would mean that they had ‘mutually agreed on a particular decision into something.’ Purely with the term ‘submitted,’ one would say ‘in purpose’ or ‘submitted unanimously into it’ just with a view to get an appropriate meaning/best interpretation. 

If the command was from Satan and not God as captured in OT, why Quran only corrected the direct command part and said it was a dream without mentioning the source (which was implied in Ismaeel's words as is the style of Quran)?

af’alu ma tu’maru’ - ‘do as you are commanded’ still has to do with the ‘aslama’ (a unanimous decision into carrying out the sacrifice). In fact, this is the only place in the narration that points to the fact that both (Prophet Ibrahim and his son (pbut)) had mistaken the dream to be a command from God. However, the ‘aslama’ in this context should not necessarily be translated as ‘submission’ to God’s command rather, a ‘unanimous decision/submission’ into something (carrying out the sacrifice).

When Christian Monks took upon themselves celibacy Quran not only mentions it but corrected it saying God never imposed but allowed it - why did God not say the similar to Ibrahim AS or addressing us saying Ibrahim associated it to Us while it wasn't from Me or something of that sort?

Again, this is another acutely inconsistent analogy if assessed carefully. While Prophet Ibrahim’s (pbuh) case is that of submission into mistaken God’s command (not of personal ‘volition’), the ‘Christian monks’ monasticism was a matter of ‘volition’ to seek God’s approval - not done as a ‘command’ from God though (57:27). Kindly see also my response below to your ‘Purpose of creation’ argument for this issue of ‘volition.’

Lastly, in Sir Joseph's words Furthermore, the Quran often states that it is also a 'confirmation' (musaddiq) of the previous scriptures, certainly implying the overlap of narratives and the theological understanding prevalent during the Prophetic ministry amongst the People of the Book.

'tasdiq' – “but it is a confirmation of what is before it”  (10:37); 'musaddiq' – “that I have sent down, confirming that which is with you” (2:41), et al.

Therefore, one may ask the valid question whether the Quran was confirming the prevalent views of the Jewish and Christian communities with regards the source of the command (being divine & direct) to Ibrahim AS??

Actually, you can relate this contention to the response given by Br. Duster above.

You may find parallel in the grand scheme/purpose of creation (creation of Satan and his progeny as they're and Adam and his progeny as we're) - isn't creation of Satan and allowing him to mislead mankind to the brim of Hell more evil (Nauzubillah) than a father's test of love and loyalty?

Respectfully, what you cite is relatively an orthogonal instance of an event to that one under discussion. Firstly, I actually find this approach of yours one that casts God into the similitude of His creation. Secondly, as I shared earlier, as believers, we do restrictively understand God from what is said about Him in the Scriptures. Other than that, it is just ‘speculative’ thoughts. We can thus not claim to fully grasp the wisdom behind the vast ‘grand scheme’ of creation other than what is pointed out to us in scripture.

Now, particularly on the above incident;

1). God did not inherently create beings evil/wicked

2). God did not order ‘Iblis’ to resort to wickedness or vow to mislead humankind (7:16-17)

This whole narrative revolves around ‘free will’ or rather ‘volition’ (15:32-40).

To start with, God seldom does intervene to prevent an evil act intended at ‘voluntarily’ from taking place. ‘Volition’ is a great virtue that is entrusted to some of His creation. It is this same ‘virtue’ that shall mainly be the standard upon which we shall be judged. This is left for that Day (of Recompense).

Therefore, for a sin committed, a befitting recompense awaits one in the Hereafter and thus, God is not obliged to prevent it from transpiring, only for where He wishes. As a result, while Iblis’s vow and pledge was purely out of ‘volition,’ Prophet Ibrahim’s (pbuh) decision was mistaken for Allah’s command. These are completely two different unrelated scenarios.


Your explanation of 18:74 is still unsatisfactory from ordinary human and even from a great Prophet's perspective and to your own standard of "justified killing", regardless of theme killing an innocent boy is still shocking and an event of mocking God for the atheist and disbelievers alike for the same reason as yours. 

As regards 18:74, on my part, I don’t find a need to explain it any other way when the verses (18:80-81) are clear on what justified such a ‘killing.’

“...and we feared he would overburden them (his parents) with transgression (thwughyanan) and disbelief (kufran). So we wanted their Lord to replace him with someone better in purity, and closer to mercy.” (Qur’an, Al-Kahf 18:80-81)


Other than that, we can never get the ‘full’ picture of the ‘future’ (3:179) of the boy nor get privy to the remit of the set of parameters upon which God made such an order. These are matters of ‘ghayb’ which we can’t fully fathom (10:20, 6:59).


Seeing this conundrum people like br Wakas are forced to interpret the whole event completely out of box   


In the end we're all good Alhumdulillah, those who see it as evil disassociate it from God and those (like me) in the grand scheme of things doesn't necessarily see it as an evil at all but a test (2:155) for ordinary and direct and severe for extra-ordinary like Ibrahim AS.


Respectfully, as a student of the Qur’an and more importantly as a believer, albeit I admit that we can simply agree to disagree on some issues, I don’t think we should rest our sincere academic viewpoints on the perceptions of ‘good.’ This is especially if we assert that our views are purely qur’anic.

In conclusion, dear brother Student, can I kindly ask you to please provide proof from the Qur’an for the claims in those two questions I raised above. The burden of proof is on you and not me, Br. Joseph, or any other one who holds the position I do regarding the topic at hand. You seem to dismiss or rather not rebut responses made to you as regards your contentions. In my opinion, you have also hitherto not given any unambiguous qur’anic reference to back up your claims. Instead, you reply with additional questions each time you comment without defending your previous ones. This is unwarranted in my opinion.

With all due respect, if you can’t provide any references for your claimed position above, may I kindly end our discussion here. Possibly, Br. Joseph (to whom you originally solicited his opinion) and other members can proceed with the discussion.


Regards,
Athman.
Title: Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
Post by: Student on September 12, 2018, 12:45:05 AM
Thanks a lot dear Athman and Duster for your responses.

I used the words "in purpose" to counter an argument I did not think it as an academic dishonesty but using their choice of words as a line of argument.

Quote
‘af’alu ma tu’maru’ - ‘do as you are commanded’ still has to do with the ‘aslama’ (a unanimous decision into carrying out the sacrifice). In fact, this is the only place in the narration that points to the fact that both (Prophet Ibrahim and his son (pbut)) had mistaken the dream to be a command from God. However, the ‘aslama’ in this context should not necessarily be translated as ‘submission’ to God’s command rather, a ‘unanimous decision/submission’ into something (carrying out the sacrifice).
This is where I think I'm missing much needed Arabic grammar and so until that point if/when I acquire the skills I would rather not allege a great Prophet of a mistake especially when both Quran and OT (Ahada-huma) remained silent despite enormous time and opportunity to correct the two major adherents of their misunderstanding and also when Quran did not miss opportunity to point/correct many Prophets of their mistake. This is where as you said repeatedly, we agree to disagree  :)

Let's end the discussion here.

Mashallah you're blessed with knowledge, wisdom and debate skill and I'm assuming you're also gifted with knowledge of Arabic language - it would be interesting and a pleasure to follow any debate you may differ on any subject with Sir Joseph  :D
Title: Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
Post by: Student on September 12, 2018, 01:03:57 AM
I forgot to qualify my end note:

With a view to discern the truth - it would be interesting and a pleasure to follow any debate you may differ on any subject with Sir Joseph  :D