QM Forum
The Quran => General Discussions => Topic started by: w3bcrowf3r on March 02, 2019, 04:13:52 AM
-
I read the Torah and it mentioned the story about Hagar and Ishmael in detail about her running to find water until the Angel of God came and made the water come from the ground for them. But in the Quran i couldn't find what the Safwa and alMarwah mean or are? Can someone help? How would we suppose to know this by using the Quran alone? Or should we just accept it that we use history for this topic? On wikipedia it says they are the two hills which Hagar was running between to search for water.
-
Shalom / peace
The following article states:
http://quransmessage.com/articles/makkah%20bakkah%20FM3.htm
Furthermore, despite the popular Muslim belief, there is also no evidence in the Quran that Safa and Marwah refer to hills, which once again only seems to provide a possible conduit to support the Biblical Abraham-Hagar narrative. There is no support for this narrative in the Quran.
Safa and Marwah have only been mentioned in the Quran as a place where there were 'symbols' (sha'airi) of God (Not necessarily connected with Prophet Abraham). (pbuh) These were sites that the Pre-Islamic Arab community were familiar with and circumambulation of them was allowable if desired.
The story of Hagar running to find water isn't connected to Safa and Marwah in the Qur'an.....
-
Analysis from Quran: source (http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html).
2:158 Indeed, the safa1 and the marwah2 are from the markers/tokens (sha3air)3 of God, so whoever did HaJJ 4 (at/of) the shelter/house5 or enlivened/visited6 there is no blame/error on him that he go amongst by/at them both7 and whoever volunteered good/better8 then God is Appreciative, Knowing.
1 - root: Sad-Fa-Waw. See Project Root List to read about possible meanings for given roots in this article.
2 - root: Miim-Ra-Waw.
3 - root: Shiin-Ayn-Ra. The root meanings and Quran usage suggest the word describes things/tokens/symbols/markers/practices (usually to do with sustenance/benefit) that have a deeper significance, i.e. help make us aware of something (e.g. God and His beneficience). Honouring such "sha3air" can indicate "taqwa" (forethoughtfulness/conscientiousness/piety) of the hearts, and can provide opportunity to be thankful and/or magnify God for what He has guided you - see 5:2, 22:32, 22:36-37.
4 - root: Ha-Jim-Jim. Note the perfect/past tense implies one could have done "HaJJ" but not necessarily encountered "safa" and "marwah" yet, meaning they are not compulsory aspects of "HaJJ" (or "umrah") but are accessible secondary to it. Also if they were an intrinsic part of "al HaJJ" then there would be no need to state "there is no blame on him that he should go about/amongst them". This is further reinforced by the imperfect tense "ttawwaf" which follows. As a side note, some Traditional commentators also mention this point.
5 - root: Ba-Ya-Ta. It principally means to reach the night or spend the night in and "bayt" is that place. It can be used for any structure that is utilised for such a purpose. Thus, "bayt" is closer to shelter as the conceptual meaning and within that meaning is the house. In this context it refers to the locality/region/area, wherein "al hajj" is being held, and is thus acting as a shelter/house for the people. This will be further discussed later.
6 - root: Ayn-Miim-Ra. Also perfect/past tense.
7 - root: Tay-Waw-Fa. Note it says "ttawwaf bi" which is the exact same phrase in 22:29 (involving the ancient/noble shelter/house / "al bayt al 3tiq") which most commentators take to mean "circuit" but they do not take it to mean "circuit" here. Some may argue that since there are two objects here, going to and fro is the implied meaning here rather than "circuit".
8 - the phrase "whoever volunteered good/better" is likely related to what came before, i.e. "no blame on him that he go about them". Interestingly, if it is taken as "whoever volunteered better", as I feel the implication is, then this can only mean: better than "going about/amongst safa and marwah". The obvious question then is: what is better?
2:158 clearly indicates there is a difference between HaJJ and i'tamara/visited (commonly translated as "umrah").
The additional information we have extracted about "safa" and "marwah" is as follows, which may help narrow down the possible meanings:
1) other occurrences of "sha3air of God" refer to provision of sustenance/food by means of the animals, thus they could be related to that
2) they are accessible to those who did HaJJ or visited the house/shelter, but are secondary to it
3) it is possible some might mistakenly assign blame if one goes about them or one going about them could think they are doing something negative/wrong
4) it may be possible to volunteer better than going amongst them
When we look at CAD "al safa" can refer to the animals which give much milk (said of she-camel/sheep/goat), and "al marwah" can refer to a stone where a cooking fire is started or on which an animal is slaughtered. If we opt for these meanings then the one going about them in 2:158 would be consuming food, not providing it. If so, this makes it easy to understand why this could be thought of as a negative, i.e. someone at this location could take advantage of such offerings/availability and consume aplenty without giving in return. This would also help explain why it says "whoever volunteered better" because providing food is better than consuming it, and this may tie in with verses such as 2:196 which discusses giving an offering/gift (e.g. an animal to be used for food provision). This is also the case for one who did HaJJ because even though doing HaJJ involves providing food for others, one could still consume more than they gave.
If we do choose this meaning, then we may need to consider why animals of milking are not discussed under the ordinary food to give/feed others with for one undertaking the HaJJ and this may be because it is more difficult for one to do, as the timing needs to be right for a female animal to give milk, e.g. shortly after them giving birth. Giving an animal for slaughter is much easier.
There are other possibilities for these words from CAD, e.g. "al safa" can mean "the palm tree heavy with fruit", "al marwah" can mean "a type of fragrant tree".
A plausible interpretation of "no blame on him that he go about them" is that this phrase is often used in AQ to discuss an exception/modification to the recommendation/rule/principle (e.g. 2:229, 2:282, 4:101, 4:102, 24:29, 24:58, 24:60), thus could refer to an exception, e.g. regarding slaughtering of animals on a stone (as this may be misconstrued as a throwback to idolatrous practice, see 5:3), or "marwah" can mean a stone from which blades are made even though there is no hunting or fighting in this period, or sightseeing of unique/stone landmarks at such a location could be mistaken for their veneration. Volunteering good/better in this case would be to help out at the event rather than sightseeing perhaps.
There seems to be insufficient evidence, as per Quran, to definitively deduce the meaning of "safa" and "marwah", however we should bear in mind that whatever they are the implication is that they are not critical/compulsory aspects for one who did "HaJJ" or visited.
-
Shalom / peace
The following article states:
http://quransmessage.com/articles/makkah%20bakkah%20FM3.htm
Furthermore, despite the popular Muslim belief, there is also no evidence in the Quran that Safa and Marwah refer to hills, which once again only seems to provide a possible conduit to support the Biblical Abraham-Hagar narrative. There is no support for this narrative in the Quran.
Safa and Marwah have only been mentioned in the Quran as a place where there were 'symbols' (sha'airi) of God (Not necessarily connected with Prophet Abraham). (pbuh) These were sites that the Pre-Islamic Arab community were familiar with and circumambulation of them was allowable if desired.
The story of Hagar running to find water isn't connected to Safa and Marwah in the Qur'an.....
Umm i am not going to believe what wikipedia said about this.. Why would God in the Quran allow us to do something that was pre-islamic and idolatry..
I probably are the hills that Hagar was running between to find water for Ishmael when they were in the desert.
-
Analysis from Quran: source (http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html).
2:158 Indeed, the safa1 and the marwah2 are from the markers/tokens (sha3air)3 of God, so whoever did HaJJ 4 (at/of) the shelter/house5 or enlivened/visited6 there is no blame/error on him that he go amongst by/at them both7 and whoever volunteered good/better8 then God is Appreciative, Knowing.
1 - root: Sad-Fa-Waw. See Project Root List to read about possible meanings for given roots in this article.
2 - root: Miim-Ra-Waw.
3 - root: Shiin-Ayn-Ra. The root meanings and Quran usage suggest the word describes things/tokens/symbols/markers/practices (usually to do with sustenance/benefit) that have a deeper significance, i.e. help make us aware of something (e.g. God and His beneficience). Honouring such "sha3air" can indicate "taqwa" (forethoughtfulness/conscientiousness/piety) of the hearts, and can provide opportunity to be thankful and/or magnify God for what He has guided you - see 5:2, 22:32, 22:36-37.
4 - root: Ha-Jim-Jim. Note the perfect/past tense implies one could have done "HaJJ" but not necessarily encountered "safa" and "marwah" yet, meaning they are not compulsory aspects of "HaJJ" (or "umrah") but are accessible secondary to it. Also if they were an intrinsic part of "al HaJJ" then there would be no need to state "there is no blame on him that he should go about/amongst them". This is further reinforced by the imperfect tense "ttawwaf" which follows. As a side note, some Traditional commentators also mention this point.
5 - root: Ba-Ya-Ta. It principally means to reach the night or spend the night in and "bayt" is that place. It can be used for any structure that is utilised for such a purpose. Thus, "bayt" is closer to shelter as the conceptual meaning and within that meaning is the house. In this context it refers to the locality/region/area, wherein "al hajj" is being held, and is thus acting as a shelter/house for the people. This will be further discussed later.
6 - root: Ayn-Miim-Ra. Also perfect/past tense.
7 - root: Tay-Waw-Fa. Note it says "ttawwaf bi" which is the exact same phrase in 22:29 (involving the ancient/noble shelter/house / "al bayt al 3tiq") which most commentators take to mean "circuit" but they do not take it to mean "circuit" here. Some may argue that since there are two objects here, going to and fro is the implied meaning here rather than "circuit".
8 - the phrase "whoever volunteered good/better" is likely related to what came before, i.e. "no blame on him that he go about them". Interestingly, if it is taken as "whoever volunteered better", as I feel the implication is, then this can only mean: better than "going about/amongst safa and marwah". The obvious question then is: what is better?
2:158 clearly indicates there is a difference between HaJJ and i'tamara/visited (commonly translated as "umrah").
The additional information we have extracted about "safa" and "marwah" is as follows, which may help narrow down the possible meanings:
1) other occurrences of "sha3air of God" refer to provision of sustenance/food by means of the animals, thus they could be related to that
2) they are accessible to those who did HaJJ or visited the house/shelter, but are secondary to it
3) it is possible some might mistakenly assign blame if one goes about them or one going about them could think they are doing something negative/wrong
4) it may be possible to volunteer better than going amongst them
When we look at CAD "al safa" can refer to the animals which give much milk (said of she-camel/sheep/goat), and "al marwah" can refer to a stone where a cooking fire is started or on which an animal is slaughtered. If we opt for these meanings then the one going about them in 2:158 would be consuming food, not providing it. If so, this makes it easy to understand why this could be thought of as a negative, i.e. someone at this location could take advantage of such offerings/availability and consume aplenty without giving in return. This would also help explain why it says "whoever volunteered better" because providing food is better than consuming it, and this may tie in with verses such as 2:196 which discusses giving an offering/gift (e.g. an animal to be used for food provision). This is also the case for one who did HaJJ because even though doing HaJJ involves providing food for others, one could still consume more than they gave.
If we do choose this meaning, then we may need to consider why animals of milking are not discussed under the ordinary food to give/feed others with for one undertaking the HaJJ and this may be because it is more difficult for one to do, as the timing needs to be right for a female animal to give milk, e.g. shortly after them giving birth. Giving an animal for slaughter is much easier.
There are other possibilities for these words from CAD, e.g. "al safa" can mean "the palm tree heavy with fruit", "al marwah" can mean "a type of fragrant tree".
A plausible interpretation of "no blame on him that he go about them" is that this phrase is often used in AQ to discuss an exception/modification to the recommendation/rule/principle (e.g. 2:229, 2:282, 4:101, 4:102, 24:29, 24:58, 24:60), thus could refer to an exception, e.g. regarding slaughtering of animals on a stone (as this may be misconstrued as a throwback to idolatrous practice, see 5:3), or "marwah" can mean a stone from which blades are made even though there is no hunting or fighting in this period, or sightseeing of unique/stone landmarks at such a location could be mistaken for their veneration. Volunteering good/better in this case would be to help out at the event rather than sightseeing perhaps.
There seems to be insufficient evidence, as per Quran, to definitively deduce the meaning of "safa" and "marwah", however we should bear in mind that whatever they are the implication is that they are not critical/compulsory aspects for one who did "HaJJ" or visited.
Ty for your response. In a root dictionary online, arabtools, it said that alsafwa walmarwah are stones?
Yeah i am probably going to let them. It's better to accept that i don't know something when it's not compulsory. We could have done it by Gods will if we were living in the time of the Messenger because he knew what it meant.
I was just curious if someone found out what they are according to the Quran.
-
Umm i am not going to believe what wikipedia said about this.. Why would God in the Quran allow us to do something that was pre-islamic and idolatry..
I probably are the hills that Hagar was running between to find water for Ishmael when they were in the desert.
Who said anything about Wikipedia? I gave you an article from this site ....
And as to your question about why would Allah allow something that was pre-Islamic? Simple ... He is concerned with the 'purpose'. Worshipping around the Kaaba was also a pre-Islamic practice with idolatry.. but the process was 'cleaned up' and was allowed but in Allah's name alone ... So don't agree with your point ..
-
Umm i am not going to believe what wikipedia said about this.. Why would God in the Quran allow us to do something that was pre-islamic and idolatry..
I probably are the hills that Hagar was running between to find water for Ishmael when they were in the desert.
Who said anything about Wikipedia? I gave you an article from this site ....
And as to your question about why would Allah allow something that was pre-Islamic? Simple ... He is concerned with the 'purpose'. Worshipping around the Kaaba was also a pre-Islamic practice with idolatry.. but the process was 'cleaned up' and was allowed but in Allah's name alone ... So don't agree with your point ..
Worshipping God through the Kaaba doesn't have a polytheistic origin. The Israelites worship God through their 'Kaaba'/Tabernacle.
-
Worshipping God through the Kaaba doesn't have a polytheistic origin. The Israelites worship God through their 'Kaaba'/Tabernacle.
I think you are missing the point. There were pre-islamic practices that were allowed to continue but cleaned up for the one God! - Allah .... purpose was more important....
Visiting Arafat and the monuments was another as was shaving or cutting the hair during pilgrimage ......It's in the Quran .... check out the article below...
http://quransmessage.com/articles/hajj%20FM3.htm
-
peace all,
Please note the Quranic evidence for the claim that these practices were somehow cleaned up for God is flimsy.
The Israelites worship God through their 'Kaaba'/Tabernacle.
I'm not familiar with the above. Can you clarify how/what they worship God through their tabernacle. Thanks.
Stone cuboids were objects for pagan worship in Arabia at the time: source (https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607054.msg359847#msg359847).
Quote
North Arabia
Allah (al-Ilahah) "the God"
"Daughters of Allah"
Allat (Ilat) "the Goddess" Mother goddess, Goddess of
Taif (east of Mecca)
Shams Sun goddess
ash-Shiraq "the Rising One" (Male?)
Muharriq "the Burner" (Male?)
Chabou, Ka'bu [Nabatean/Petra] Virgin Sun Mother of
Dhu-al-Shara/Dushares
al-Uzza, Lady `Uzzay-an "the Most Mighty." Planet Venus
ash-Sa'ida "The Blessed"
Azizos "the Powerful" Morning star
Monimos "the Benificent" Evening star
Manah, Manat [Nabatean/Petra], Maniya "Fate"
.
Dhu-al-Shara/Dhu-'sh-Shara/Dushares [Nabatean/Petra] {Block of
black stone, 4x2} Dying god, son of the Earth
mother. Sacred day, Dec 25.
Hubal Chief god of Ka'bah (Allah?)
Root entry in Lane's Lexicon for Kaf-Ayn-Ba
Quote: "a house or temple belonging to the tribe of Rabee'ah, who used to compass it, or perform circuits round it (as is done round the Kabbeh of Mekkeh)".
e.g. Book: Mecca and Eden: ritual, relics and territory in islam
p26,
Quote
Such stones, especially black stones, were used as the main cult objects for the worship of other Arabian gods. According to Epiphanius the Nabatean God Dhu-shara (Dhu al Shara) was represented by something called "khaabou" which represented the deity. The Byzantine lexicographer Suidas reports that this was a black stone, roughly square, four feet high by two feet wide. Antoninus Placentinus relates that in Sinai the local Arabs had an idol which changed from snow white to pitch black..... Ibn al Kalbi relates that a number of Arab deities were represented by stones
Discussed in more detail here:
http://www.free-minds.org/Old/articles/science/language.htm
e.g.
Quote
In the fourth century AD, Epiphanius, the bishop of Salamis, Cyprus wrote a letter describing cults such as the Nabataean cult and their celebration of the festival of the birth of Dhu Al-Shaara around the winter solstice. It is interesting that the birth celebrations culminated with bringing forth from beneath the earth the image of the male infant idol, which was carried seven times around the inner sanctuary of the pagan temple. [See Langdon, S., Semitic Mythology, The Mythology of All Races, Vol. V. Boston: Archaeological Institute of America, Marshall Jones Company, 1931, page 19.]
.
The celebration of the idol's birth around the winter solstice is also an indication of a relationship to the sun. The present cube structure of Dhu Al-Shaara in Saudi Arabia also has evidence of its pagan purpose. For example, the cube is aligned such that the Southeast corner is in the direction of the winter sunrise. Interestingly, in that corner lies the so-called Black Stone, which is the most revered object by sectarians who love to kiss and fondle it.
-
Asalamu 3alykum
In light of verse 5:3 brother Dusters comment seems valid and not sure why you find it flimsy as I notice you seem to find many valid opinions flimsy while you fail to make a conclusive valid opinion. Sometimes a close opinion or a close practice to a command is better than no action or implementation. For example zakat zakat hajj etc
Forbidden unto you (for food) are carrion and blood and swineflesh, and that which hath been dedicated unto any other than Allah, and the strangled, and the dead through beating, and the dead through falling from a height, and that which hath been killed by (the goring of) horns, and the devoured of wild beasts, saving that which ye make lawful (by the death-stroke), and that which hath been immolated unto idols. And (forbidden is it) that ye swear by the divining arrows. This is an abomination. This day are those who disbelieve in despair of (ever harming) your religion; so fear them not, fear Me! This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour unto you, and have chosen for you as religion al-Islam. Whoso is forced by hunger, not by will, to sin: (for him) lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Salam
-
peace,
In light of verse 5:3 brother Dusters comment seems valid.....
I'm not sure I follow. Can you clarify the relevance of 5:3 here?
-
Peace Wakas
It's obvious frim the Quran that God has guided humanity through the Quran and had choosen to use a nation of the Arabs and their culture and system to be an example. From there much can be extracted.
Verse 5:3 states that God has perfected the religion/ways/system of Muhammad's people.
They used to have a religion but it was adjusted so that it would fit the system of God. (Islam). The Quran also had reconfirmed the previous scriptures and provided itself as guard over them and also provided itself as a guidance to humanity.
There was certain foods thst the Arabs mad lawful to certain things and forbid some other food. Was not acceptable and they were guided in what to eat and what not to eat.
They had a prayer but not acceptable. Their prayers was whisling and clapping. God had then corrected and established a correct way.
They had a direction of prayer but that was allowed to continue.
Like bro Duster was mentioning the people seemed to be doing practices that God had allowed to continue. Those did not seem to intervene in the system of the Lord.
Peace
-
peace,
Thanks for clarifying. Still don't really see the connection with 5:3.
In any case I consider what bro Duster said as valid, in the sense that his opinion is possible. However the evidence for it is flimsy in my opinion.
On the one hand The Quran has a very strong anti-idolatry message, yet on the other hand we know many practices (particularly those associated with Traditional Hajj rituals/relics) are strongly associated with idolatrous/pagan practices of the time. Seems polar opposites to me, but each to their own.
-
peace,
Thanks for clarifying. Still don't really see the connection with 5:3.
In any case I consider what bro Duster said as valid, in the sense that his opinion is possible. However the evidence for it is flimsy in my opinion.
On the one hand The Quran has a very strong anti-idolatry message, yet on the other hand we know many practices (particularly those associated with Traditional Hajj rituals/relics) are strongly associated with idolatrous/pagan practices of the time. Seems polar opposites to me, but each to their own.
What kind of practices in the Quran about Pilgrimage were being performed in the time when Mecca was still worshiping idols?
-
What kind of practices in the Quran about Pilgrimage were being performed in the time when Mecca was still worshiping idols?
I asked you a question but you did not answer, and now you ask me a question.
In any case, to answer your question, the first thing I recommend (other than reading Quran yourself) is to read the article I linked to above.
-
Salaam br. Hamzeh,
You don't seem to disagree with Sir Joseph on any subject or even minor issues (at least I'm not aware of it). It would be interesting to know if you do, just curious ;)
Thanks,
-
Salaam br. Hamzeh,
You don't seem to disagree with Sir Joseph on any subject or even minor issues (at least I'm not aware of it). It would be interesting to know if you do, just curious ;)
Thanks,
Shalom / peace .... How is this question relevant to this thread? ....Are you curious or something else? ...Some could see this as a disguised question where someone doesn't seem to be pleased?
So many times I agree with brother Joseph and keep some of my differences in view off the forum as they are immaterial as compared to my large scale agreement and appreciation of brother Joseph's efforts......
Should we criticize people for the sake of it??? Should we criticize them despite our huge agreement rather than come to common terms???? Should we not spread the knowledge of those we agree with generally????
Why should anyone prove areas of differences to anyone? Is that what we should do? Try to expose areas of differences with people we respect for the efforts they have made just for the sake of it or to prove we are using our own brains and critique ????
You just ask a pointless question in my opinion and it seems you are not happy that someone may actually support brother Joseph's efforts and largely show agreement.....
-
Salaam Br. Duster,
Sorry to see you took my simple and sincere question (based on my observation) to Br. Hamzeh.
If you look at all my posts you wouldn't fail to notice my appreciation of Sir Joseph's work and his personal clarification to many of my questions.
I agree with you that we're (you and I) are in agreement with his works 99:1 - and yet you'll see the minor disagreements in my very few posts but I didn't see (could be there) any with active br. Hamzeh - so that's all the curiosity there's to it - shouldn't read more than that.....I feel it's completely unwarranted and harsh response from you.
Hope this clarifies.
-
Shalom / peace brother Student..... Apologies if I sounded harsh but I meant no ill will..... you've probably noticed I'm pretty straight talking and not as polished in my delivery as you are or other members on here.... but i don't like beating about the bush........hopefully you got some of my points too..... imho....not worth highlighting the 1% of a difference if it's not material. My view is to focus on the 99% of agreement especially when the argument is strong......
-
Walekum salaam,
Br Duster,
I couldn't agree more :)
I'm not fishing disagreement for fun....just noted an odd thing and asked....however I learned a lot in debates and disagreements from two learned persons presenting their views - not just egoistic disagreement for the sake of disagreement.
-
Asalamu 3alykum
Dear brother Duster
Thank you for your kind words on another thread. I also have a lot of respect for you as well and I do have much interest in your views and Insha'Allah I look forward to reading your comments which I find have much wisdom Masha'Allah. May God bless you.
Regarding your comment though
you've probably noticed I'm pretty straight talking and not as polished in my delivery as you are or other members on here
You think, because I never noticed :)
Ive seen lots of your comments are with utmost respect and Insha'Allah you and the others i'm sure could overlook the arguments that went a bit side ways. I probably fall in doing the same thing sometimes. But I'm sure we are all here for each other with reminders when things get a little off.
Dear brother Student
You don't seem to disagree with Sir Joseph on any subject or even minor issues (at least I'm not aware of it). It would be interesting to know if you do, just curious ;)
You know brother actually I don't think I ever thought of that before. But to think of it now, I do not think I have come to an article or a writing of his that I would be able to disagree with regarding the message of the Quran. I have honesty found that he has provided clear evidences for his opinions and has remained intellectually honest Alhamdulila. He has shared clear proof from the Quran to his opinions and I have not yet found a reason to disagree with him. There was actually times where I understood a topic differently but after reading some of his input I have found them to be more convincing. Of course he is like any of us who may make a mistake, but Masha'Allah I find his opinions regarding Islamic affairs and studies are derived from the Quran and seem to be well balanced.
I have never found him being biased to any group or sect when interpolating or interpreting the Quran. Masha'Allah. He simply lets the Quran speak and unleashes the speeches of the Quran towards any criticism he finds from all sides of the spectrum be it traditionalist, Quranists, political, historical, finance, family affairs, business, law, etc.
I try to investigate brother Joseph's articles in many ways. One is with the approach that I only know Islam through the Quran. That as I read his articles, I divorce myself from any secondary information and see if they are verified/supported and not pose any violation to any other verse.
I also try to investigate them from the lenses of those who are traditionalists. As you may realize that some of the articles point out to mainly the traditionalist as they are the concern at times and the ones familiar with the topics, as the Quran is alien to some topics.
What you realize though is that brother Joseph seems to even have a great understanding(Masha'Allah) of what the arguments of the traditionalists are or going to be as if he is putting himself in their position for a moment and does not shy away from them, but does indeed challenge them using the Quran. So he not only shows the correct interpretation but also portrays how a misconception has no place in the Quran as it would cause problems in the verses of the Quran which a Muslim should not accept. This as a muslim needs to be appreciated.
Also I try to investigate his articles/opinions and compare them with the Quranists and other opinions. As we noticed there has been more than a few critics to his views, muslims and non-muslims and he seems to justify his stance solely with the Quran while remaining academically honest to the language. Which I appreciate.
I find Brother Joseph suggests that there is a relative starting point from where the Quran needs to be understood from. I agree with this and take it into account. Any truth seeker would agree that words have meaning and a message from God cannot be manifested with lost words that are only determined by what peoples worldly views are. That would be tantamount to a book from the people and what they want instead a book from God
Any rational human should agree that a clear message from God would need an established language to be used as a medium to interpret it. Otherwise the book can be misinterpreted and no one should be held responsible for their faults and the way of God would be mocked at.
Alhamdulila and Masha'Allah I cannot say I have found disagreement with how he views the Quran and its interpretation.
Those are some of the reason where I find that I have not disagreed with him on any subject. I find his works to be consistent and has not said something to contradict himself in expressing his views of the Quran.
I also understand that seekers of truth or students of the Quran do not shy to change their opinions when better arguments have been professed or learned. That being said he has been writing for quite some time now I noticed, and I understand and appreciate that maybe some of his older opinions could be updated or changed.
Salam brother Student