QM Forum

The Quran => Women => : AQL March 10, 2019, 02:47:44 PM

: Women's clothes and rape?
: AQL March 10, 2019, 02:47:44 PM
Salamun Alaykum,

I have a few questions.

1.
I feel like some people use the command for women to cover so they are not "molested" (33:59) to show that clothing is supposed to protect a woman? But I've even heard of cases where women were sexually assaulted near the Kabah, fully clothed. How is clothing a protection?

2.
If "fashish" acts includes more than unlawful sexual intercourse, would the term generally include even include clothing or it is SEXUAL actions? As far as I know, there is no punishment for someone due to their clothing.

3.
4:15 talks about a punishment for women but the next verse (4:16) for men speaks of forgiveness and mercy? Or does the forgiveness in verse 4:17 also apply to the women in 4:15?



Thanks for any answers!  :)
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: AQL April 11, 2019, 11:51:19 AM
Nothing?

Another one. I read a response by Joseph Islam on the topic of "polygny" (in blue)

Then there is this matter of self-constraint. What really makes a man to marry again? Fulfillment of urges? Not necessarily, albeit it can be argued that if a particular man may not remain monogamous and his inclination would be to otherwise cause sin in a particular situation, it would be far more appropriate to take on the full responsibilities within the ambit of marriage which includes financial support, rights to inheritance, equitable treatment etc. This level of responsibility could even act as a deterrence and avoid some of the sin / debauchery and desensitisation of extra marital affairs that have become arguably quite commonplace in the ‘modern world’.

However, other situations may include complex circumstances where women would otherwise become vulnerable or exposed, complexities arising within equally complex family structures and a host of other reasons which would be outside the scope of this response. From a believers perspective, this is an option (though not explicitly encouraged) that has been allowed by God in His infinite wisdom.

Why is it so common in the Muslim community to acknowledge men's sexual "urges" and "inclination to commit adultery/sin" but not as much women's? And when they do, it seems to be done in a way to put down/insult women as if it's not normal.  There are also women who have higher urges than their male counterparts in marriages/relationships. What's the "solution" for a woman if she's married to a man but desires more than him? And it does happen! Women also cheat and commit adultery! I would say self-constraint and being patient is the way for both men and women, so I don't understand why men can have an excuse and even a "solution"....
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: Duster April 11, 2019, 05:06:11 PM
Shalom / peace ShatteredEmblem ......

Your argument seems like arguing that women can also commit violent crimes, when it is well known that men are more prone to physical violence and violent crime that women ....Maybe the Quran spends more verses focuses on keeping men under constraint because they are more prone to certain inclinations ????... act on their wayward instincts perhaps ???... Why do we always have to try to compare men with women? ......I completely switch off when any discussion takes this tone  ...

Yes .... I'm sure there are plenty of sex crazed nymphomaniac women out there and there are also celibate, restrained men out there .....

I can only talk about the Quran ... and from what I read ... there seems to be no attempt to put women down .. quite the opposite .. If anything, men seem to be needing the most guidance showing me that they are a species that are less prone to control themselves ....like a bad teenager ....


Also it would be nice if you could share the whole link and context of brother Joseph's response. I had to look it up and it was specifically in response to a specific question ..... Then there is this matter of self-constraint. What really makes a man to marry again? Fulfillment of urges? ...

Here's the link if others are interested ....>>>>> http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2489.msg12968#msg12968

: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: Duster April 11, 2019, 05:34:05 PM
Salamun Alaykum,

I have a few questions.

1.
I feel like some people use the command for women to cover so they are not "molested" (33:59) to show that clothing is supposed to protect a woman? But I've even heard of cases where women were sexually assaulted near the Kabah, fully clothed. How is clothing a protection?

2.
If "fashish" acts includes more than unlawful sexual intercourse, would the term generally include even include clothing or it is SEXUAL actions? As far as I know, there is no punishment for someone due to their clothing.

3.
4:15 talks about a punishment for women but the next verse (4:16) for men speaks of forgiveness and mercy? Or does the forgiveness in verse 4:17 also apply to the women in 4:15?



Thanks for any answers!  :)


I'll try to answer ....

1. Had a look at the word 'yudayna' in 33-59 which can also mean troubled ... meaning cause of distress. Lets take it to the extreme to make a point .. Who is going to get more attention of men .. a woman with revealing clothes / hardly any clothes or someone more covered? I don't see how using incidents where women are molested with their clothes on takes away from the point that being better covered is going to get less attention from perverted men?

2. Brother Joseph talks about 'Fahisha' in the link below:
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=69.msg182#msg182

3. I would think 4:17 would apply to both ......
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: AQL April 11, 2019, 05:56:28 PM
Also it would be nice if you could share the whole link and context of brother Joseph's response. I had to look it up and it was specifically in response to a specific question ..... Then there is this matter of self-constraint. What really makes a man to marry again? Fulfillment of urges? ...


Salaam,

Even with the full link it does not really answer what I said. I've noticed it's quite common in the Muslim community that men say things like "It's so hard for men to control themselves", "Men like women", "men are naturally polygamous" etc. Generalizations and such. Men are and can be more than just sexualized animals than they seem to be portrayed..
And.. what about women? We also have to control ourselves, we also have a test. What would be our "solution" to stay away from adultery?
No, not all men are polygamous and not all women want monogamy.
 
Had a look at the word 'yudayna' in 33-59 which can also mean troubled ... meaning cause of distress. Lets take it to the extreme to make a point .. Who is going to get more attention of men .. a woman with revealing clothes / hardly any clothes or someone more covered? I don't see how using incidents where women are molested with their clothes on takes away from the point that being better covered is going to get less attention from perverted men?

"Cause of distress" or being distressed?
I'm talking about them being protected from being "molested" or even "distressed" because they're covered. Even women in a lot of Muslim countries are harassed and distressed and there are even cases of groping near the Kabah that I've read about.
Watch this about Egypt and even the perspective of a few harassers around the 8:19 mark: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gja05symHkk&t=275s

And would you apply the same logic to a half naked man as a distraction?
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: Duster April 12, 2019, 02:25:10 PM
it's quite common in the Muslim community that men say things like "It's so hard for men to control themselves", "Men like women", "men are naturally polygamous" etc. Generalizations and such.

Is it generalisations or truth? Why else does the Quran dedicate verses and verses to deal with men's inclinations then?...Please explain ...

And.. what about women? We also have to control ourselves, we also have a test. What would be our "solution" to stay away from adultery?

Again, a direct comparison. Why are you so bent on comparing men and women all the time? I am not giving men praise here .. I am saying they may be a more weaker species with regards their urges or they are likely to be overpowering if they were to violently physically act out their urges. More men rape women than women rape men. Otherwise why is the Quran spending more verses trying to entice men to control themselves? Why? Can I have an answer please?

No, not all men are polygamous and not all women want monogamy.

Yes, and so? Men can be violent, so can women......>>>> Better question - Which of the two genders has a greater inclination to violence? Explain please ...

I'm talking about them being protected from being "molested" or even "distressed" because they're covered. Even women in a lot of Muslim countries are harassed and distressed and there are even cases of groping near the Kabah that I've read about.

You've missed my whole argument... I didn't say women who are covered don't get harassed. But who is more likely to get harassed? A women with less or revealing clothes or someone who is more modestly or conservatively dressed????   

And would you apply the same logic to a half naked man as a distraction?

You apply no reality to your questions. A man that walks half naked down a dark alley or a women that walks half naked down a dark alley. Who is greater at risk? If you are going to give me some kind of radical feminist response ... then I'm through discussing this with you.



: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: AQL April 12, 2019, 05:21:01 PM

Is it generalisations or truth? Why else does the Quran dedicate verses and verses to deal with men's inclinations then?...Please explain ...

It is a generalization. Not all men are sex maniacs.
Which "verses and verses" are dedicated to men's sexual "needs"?
And are you implying that women do not have these "inclinations"?

Again, a direct comparison. Why are you so bent on comparing men and women all the time? I am not giving men praise here .. I am saying they may be a more weaker species with regards their urges or they are likely to be overpowering if they were to violently physically act out their urges. More men rape women than women rape men. Otherwise why is the Quran spending more verses trying to entice men to control themselves? Why? Can I have an answer please?

This is about the double standards and hypocrisy, so comparisions will be made.
Even if they were "weaker" (a big if), it does not mean self-constraint and patience does not apply to them and that extreme sexual behaviour for them should be encouraged.
The Qur'an is "enticing" men to control themselves? Through polygamy, you mean?
You're the one who isn't answering my points actually.

Yes, and so? Men can be violent, so can women......>>>> Better question - Which of the two genders has a greater inclination to violence? Explain please ...

Ignoring the point again.

Men do. Should they be given the right to beat women as "enticement"?

You've missed my whole argument... I didn't say women who are covered don't get harassed. But who is more likely to get harassed? A women with less or revealing clothes or someone who is more modestly or conservatively dressed????   

This is the argument I used to use during my jahil mentality days.

That does NOT matter. The point is that it DOES happen and that clothing does NOT protect. Do.you.get.it?
Why don't you ask those Egyptian men? Why do they harass women in cloaks? Watch the video.

You apply no reality to your questions. A man that walks half naked down a dark alley or a women that walks half naked down a dark alley. Who is greater at risk? If you are going to give me some kind of radical feminist response ... then I'm through discussing this with you.

That was not my question.

I've been giving you the reality throughout. The hypocrisy in society and within the Muslim community when it comes to women's sexuality. For some reason you are offended by it.
You are choosing not to answer me and instead going the typical male "who is more likely to be harrassed?!!!" argument when that is not even the point.

It's true that men make up the majority of rapists and murderers. There are men who even rape other men, children and even elderly women! Was it their clothes? There was a recent case where a woman in coma gave birth! Was it her hospital clothes?  https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jan/05/phoenix-police-woman-coma-decade-gives-birth-boy (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jan/05/phoenix-police-woman-coma-decade-gives-birth-boy)
It was revealed that there is a rape problem in Indian villages more than the cities. How would your clothes argument fit here? You need to look beyond the western world.

If you are going to give me some kind of misogynistic, male chauvinistic reply then you can leave as well.
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: AQL April 12, 2019, 05:53:47 PM
    Yes, and so? Men can be violent, so can women......>>>> Better question - Which of the two genders has a greater inclination to violence? Explain please ...

I will rephrase the first part of my answer to this.

Men commit more violent crimes. There.
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: Duster April 12, 2019, 09:22:32 PM
If you are going to give me some kind of misogynistic, male chauvinistic reply then you can leave as well.

It appears to me you have a problem with men and to be honest....i have little time for radical lefty feminist views. I'm through with you on this matter....It's not surprising that you haven't understood my response.
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: AQL April 12, 2019, 10:01:58 PM
It appears to me you have a problem with men and to be honest....i have little time for radical lefty feminist views. I'm through with you on this matter....It's not surprising that you haven't understood my response.

If I'm a radical lefty according to you then what does that make you? Far-right extremist misogynist?

It's also not really surprising that you could not answer any of my points, decided to ignore them and started name calling (radical feminist lefty views)..  :)
Peace.
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: Duster April 13, 2019, 12:31:28 AM
Call it what you like.....if it makes you sleep better ....  I answered your questions.  You are just too far up your leftist feminism attitudes to know any better ...i expect nothing better from you types!!...
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: AQL April 13, 2019, 10:42:11 AM
Call it what you like.....if it makes you sleep better ....  I answered your questions.  You are just too far up your leftist feminism attitudes to know any better ...i expect nothing better from you types!!...

Nope, you did not. All you did was "Who is more likely to be harAssEd?!!1!!" whilst ignoring the reality and all evidence I showed you. As soon as a man starts using "feminist" as an insult, you can guess their views. Your name-calling and attitude shows your views towards women anyway. There are a lot of such men in the Muslim community..
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: Athman April 13, 2019, 11:29:55 AM
Dear brethren Duster and ShatteredEmblem,

Peace be upon both of you,

Dear sister ShatteredEmblem and brother Duster, I don’t see any need to turn into being personal with each other or calling each other names. As believers, I trust that we should be at a better position informed as to the way we ought to carry our discussions and how to end them amicably. In such a situation, we should stay cognizant of evil whispers and try steer clear of them (7:200, 41:36).

To start with, it has to be appreciated that, to understand something from an Islamic perspective, for the sake of the discussion, one has to divorce themselves from all pre-conceived notions of their general world views on that. Islam has to be given the chance to expound the subject matter from within its remits hence be understood in its overarching principles and context before formulating from that a general understanding to the wider society. This is the basic premise.

We should therefore, also for this matter, be careful not to confuse ‘gender’ responsibilities, rights and provisions as outlined in the Qur’an with our externally derived sensibilities. The overall structure of these aspects within the gender pair should also well be recognized to the widest scope possible, from a purely Qur’anic perspective.

For example, with a general Qur’anic male to female inheritance ratio of 2:1 (Qur’an 4:11), I do humbly submit that this is fair enough given a Qur’anic expected charge of man over a woman (4:34) and as he provides for his wife as well as clothing her (2:233). However, a deceased’s female parent gets twice (1/3) as much as the male parent gets (1/6) when no descendants nor siblings are left. Also, from a Qur’anic perspective, an ordained generous offering (mahr) is due to the woman from the man in case of a solemn marital covenant (2:236-237, 4:4, 4:24-25, 5:5, 33:50, 60:10) where consummation plays part to whether a refund is to be made in case of a divorce situation (33:49).

In Islam, a woman's virginity is a noble status that should be rendered sacred and reserved only for their husband as should a man's for his wife. With the willingness of a woman to offer her chastity to a proposing man expressed in a religiously legal contract to last a lifetime, an ordained generous offering (mahr) from the man agreed upon themselves aptly serves to seal recognition of such a life-long sacrifice (4:21). This is the God ordained marriage system for believers where there’s an expectation of the ‘mahr’ to be due to the bride from the groom (33:50) in line with its expectation of a man to betroth a woman (4:25). The reasons behind that can only be surmised, while the wider wisdom is fully well known to God.

Given the nature of the task, the general natural responsibilities and gender physique, twinned with the historical milieu especially as regards gender perspectives, one could surmise as to why in scriptural history were all prophets male (21:7). Again, the widest wisdom in its entirety is only known to God. This though, as you may agree with me, cannot in any way be taken as a divine chauvinistic or misogynist stance by God. In the same stroke, a Qur’anic provision/ allowance for polygyny (4:3) with an absence of the same for polyandry (2:230) does not divinely sanction a chauvinistic approach to matters of multiple marriages. This is a God ordained provision/ allowance and not an encouragement nor an order. Again, apart from what can be surmised to be possible reasons for the provision for males, the overall wisdom behind it is only fully within God’s knowledge.

Apart from the natural instinctive compassion, love and care amongst couples (30:21), the Qur’an also acknowledges an intense intimate instinct (ash-shahawati) that is adorned for man to a woman (3:14). Though this is to be restrained through patience (wa in taswbiru khairu lakum) - 4:25, for fear of falling into decadence/ debauchery, enacting a marital bond with an appropriate partner is the legal and in fact recommended system in place for believers to enjoy intimacy (fama istamta’tum bihi minhunna) via conjugal rights (4:24).

Therefore, in light of verse 3:14, and given God’s infinite wisdom and knowledge of His creation, a provision/ allowance for polygyny with believers (4:3) amongst human beings on Planet Earth is not in any way out of place. What people may posit and speculate as reasons for the same within their subjective criteria is something else. The same applies to the issue of proper clothing. Apart from modest clothing providing for decency and avoiding causing unnecessary attention (33:59), I do not find from the Qur’anic narratives a suggestion that the Islamic attire also ‘protects’ a woman, in the sense of security/ safety (amanatan).


Hopefully that somehow helps God willing.

Regards,
Athman.
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: Hamzeh April 13, 2019, 01:43:32 PM
Asalamu 3alykum

Dear brother Duster and sister ShatteredEmblem

Just a reminder that we are brothers and sisters and yes it could be frustrating to see eye to eye at times.  :)

I admire that we are on this forum because we believe in the authenticity of the Quran for one reason or another although some topics might not be comfortable or maybe beyond our comprehension for a while.

I would like to start off by trying to answer a couple questions you had while not giving to many assumptions.

I feel like some people use the command for women to cover so they are not "molested" (33:59) to show that clothing is supposed to protect a woman? But I've even heard of cases where women were sexually assaulted near the Kabah, fully clothed. How is clothing a protection?

33:59 O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments. That is more suitable that they will be known and not be abused. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful.

It is worth to mention that this verse has been revealed to the prophet to tell only his wives, daughters and the believing women to draw over themselves their clothing so that they are not abused, or troubled.

This verse is surrounded by verses where there is abuse/insults being spread or said about God, the prophet, believing men and believing women. There is no instruction to fight against such insults as the only punishment is one that is deferred to another life(33:57-58).

However there is a threat from God that if and only if the hypocrites do not stop inciting hatred and false rumours against the believers which could cause corruption and disturbance in a land and the killing of innocent people then God will grant victory to the believers by way of fighting(33:60-61)

So that being said there is nothing to suggest to me that the word "yu'dhayna" in verse 33:59 means molesting. As this would directly be an act of severe transgression, rape, or violence and would arguably result in immediate retaliation and one that is just as bad or even worse than what is happening in 33:60-61.

The verse above does give guidance to those who are God conscious and who seek to be chaste married or unmarried on how to dress and not be troubled or insulted by the disbelievers or anyone.

Why is it so common in the Muslim community to acknowledge men's sexual "urges" and "inclination to commit adultery/sin" but not as much women's?

Well true muslims should not give off that impression and I'm sure they understand women and men have desires and it is well known from the Quran that a man and women can fall into sin not juts a man. (24:2). Another example is in the story of prophet Joseph and the wife of the king.

Regardless of where this was rooted from, a person man or women who desires to be a believer and seek to abide by the laws of God will know that God strongly condemns adultery/sin (24:2).

Those who are Muslim men and think because of their urges they are able to commit adultery/sin are only fooling themselves.

However we also have to admit that adultery/fornication is not the same as a marriage bond. This needs to be appreciated. If a women has urges then they must commit to a marriage bond which has rules. Like wise for a man.

The women has the right to marry who she wants and the man has the right to marry who he wants as long as they are believers.

Where from a Quranic perspective in a marriage its the man who is responsible for giving a dowry to whatever a women wants, that he is a protector and provider for the family, etc.

There are also women who have higher urges than their male counterparts in marriages/relationships.

I'll take your word for it

What's the "solution" for a woman if she's married to a man but desires more than him? And it does happen! Women also cheat and commit adultery!

Yes sister I'm sure they are prone to doing these things just as men do.

The Quran in my humble opinion is not giving a man a solution or remedy for his temptations by allowing him to marry more than one wife. Although this can be taken advantage of.

There is times where a man or a women cannot find marriage and God instructs them to be patient 24:33 no matter how great the appetite for sexual relations are.

Therefore the permissibility for polygyny is not so much only to satisfy ones needs. There is wider wisdom possibly only known to the Lord Himself.


I would say self-constraint and being patient is the way for both men and women, so I don't understand why men can have an excuse and even a "solution"....
[/quote]

I'm a little confused as to what you are asking now?

You seem to have given yourself the answer or at least you seemed to acknowledge that self-constraint is possible no matter the urges. I agree with you.

So if you believe this is a solution and it can be done, then I see the problem you may have at this point is that you find that if the man is allowed to marry more than one so should the women. But if the man does not do it then the women should not do it.

I feel like the problem you have is with the issue of equality and what God has imposed on men and women. Not so much that one cannot self-constraint or abide by the rules of God, but by that of equality.

To be honest sister I do not think anyone Except God can tell us why He has chosen these laws. The Quran also has laws about other things that we do not understand which do not impose a threat on the message of the Quran but does give the believers something to think about and put their trust in God.

We men are also possibly puzzled because we know that it hurts some of our wives and daughters and mothers. We see their curiosity as to why. But what do we do? Ban it, forbid it?

I'm sure some do not do it because they understand it hurts their families in days like today. But is it right to twist the words of God and try to some how ban it?

As I’m sure you will appreciate that we are believers of the Quran and accepted the Quran's veracity and believe the origin of the Quran to be from the Lord. Just because we are not able to fathom or comprehend the reason behind why God has allowed polygany for a man, we cannot simply forbid it or sweeten the message to the liking of others which I've noticed muslim men have tried to do at certain points.


We do not encompass the life of this world and what it entails.

Todays world is changing fast. As always it changes in different directions all the time. From good to bad, from bad to good, or whatever roots the people choose.

It could be argued that this life is not always so pleasant and calm and will never be a heavenly abode, and the events that have unfolded in the past or will unfold in the future will possibly carry the answers to such questions and why God has chosen these rights to whatever of His creation. He encompasses all things. There does seem from a historic standpoint that women were not always against polygany so much as to how women are today. Was there something that caused or led it to be acceptable to some point? or was it a need in the world? Will it happen again?

Just some thoughts I ask myself.

God knows best.

As believing men we need to understand these questions also. Its our duty to try to share as best as possible the message of God to our sisters, wives, mothers, etc. and vice versa.

We need to understand that women are going to be somewhat saddened and not comprehend as to why God has allowed it and we men will also possibly not understand its comprehension as well.

Insha'Allah other ladies would comment and give their views as well, and please do not think we are against you but take it as we also have thought about it and just sharing to what we understand best.

God knows best

Peace
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: AQL April 13, 2019, 01:59:28 PM

Dear sister ShatteredEmblem and brother Duster, I don’t see any need to turn into being personal with each other or calling each other names. As believers, I trust that we should be at a better position informed as to the way we ought to carry our discussions and how to end them amicably. In such a situation, we should stay cognizant of evil whispers and try steer clear of them (7:200, 41:36).

AssalamuAlaykum,

Yes, the way I was spoken to was rude and unneccessary.

Apart from the natural instinctive compassion, love and care amongst couples (30:21), the Qur’an also acknowledges an intense intimate instinct (ash-shahawati) that is adorned for man to a woman (3:14).

Therefore, in light of verse 3:14, and given God’s infinite wisdom and knowledge of His creation, a provision/ allowance for polygyny with believers (4:3) amongst human beings on Planet Earth is not in any way out of place. What people may posit and speculate as reasons for the same within their subjective criteria is something else. The same applies to the issue of proper clothing. Apart from modest clothing providing for decency and avoiding causing unnecessary attention (33:59), I do not find from the Qur’anic narratives a suggestion that the Islamic attire also ‘protects’ a woman, in the sense of security/ safety (amanatan).


I'm not sure if you realize but the above is what I mean I don't understand. I'm talking about the acknowledgment/lack thereof of women's sexuality and their attraction to men. Their "enticement" as the "Duster" guy put it?  Surely, God knows that women also struggle. Or perhaps it is the way the Muslim community and society at large treats women, their expectations of women, that overshadows this. If we speak up about it, we are "bad women or "radical lefty feminists". Many men try to silence women and speak for them.

There is wisdom in the story of Prophet Yusuf (pbuh) and "Zulaykha". The restraint Prophet Yusuf (pbuh) showed as a man and the way Zulaykha reacted to Prophet Yusuf's beauty as a married woman. I can't think of any other Prophet apart from Muhammad (pbuh) whose wives are mentioned in the plural in the Qur'an. All this surely shows that not everyone is the same. Not all men are polygamous and not all women are monogamous. Or that perhaps, the rules were not always the same? I don't agree with generalizing people. Several Muslim scholars seem to do it too, especially when they discuss topics like "hoor al ayn" where they pretend that all men are "naturally" polygamous and that they "need" this. Take this, for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLNXbyFxQnk

I don't feel it's fair to just look at the verse about polygamy or even verse 3:14 (isn't the word used there humans/people/mankind?) coupled with society's hypersexual view of men to justify their behaviour, generalize men and women, and victim blame women. Also, those are also two separate verses. 3:14 does not speak about orphans. The verse after that actually speaks of "purified spouses" in Jannah which would apply to both, I think you'll agree.
Do you think that it is mere speculation based on "pre-conceived notion" that God allowed polygamy because of men's supposed "sexual nature"? Or did I misunderstand your point?

If we are to speak of "pre-conceived notions of their general world views", then it is often society that leads men to believe they are supposed to have hyper-sexual animal insticts with a lack of control, when some decent men would probably take offence to being described as such.

And yes, that makes a bit more sense. Clothing does not protect. Men can also be a cause of unwanted attention based on their clothing, so decency applies to them too which is not emphasized as much. It also depends on where you live, some people may find the burqa/niqab/jubbah/turban/skull-cap more eye-catching and odd. And in other societies, it may be the lack of clothes. Women are generally unsafe either way.
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: AQL April 13, 2019, 02:35:40 PM
Asalamu 3alykum

33:59 O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments. That is more suitable that they will be known and not be abused. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful.

It is worth to mention that this verse has been revealed to the prophet to tell only his wives, daughters and the believing women to draw over themselves their clothing so that they are not abused, or troubled.

This verse is surrounded by verses where there is abuse/insults being spread or said about God, the prophet, believing men and believing women. There is no instruction to fight against such insults as the only punishment is one that is deferred to another life(33:57-58).

However there is a threat from God that if and only if the hypocrites do not stop inciting hatred and false rumours against the believers which could cause corruption and disturbance in a land and the killing of innocent people then God will grant victory to the believers by way of fighting(33:60-61)

So that being said there is nothing to suggest to me that the word "yu'dhayna" in verse 33:59 means molesting. As this would directly be an act of severe transgression, rape, or violence and would arguably result in immediate retaliation and one that is just as bad or even worse than what is happening in 33:60-61.

The verse above does give guidance to those who are God conscious and who seek to be chaste married or unmarried on how to dress and not be troubled or insulted by the disbelievers or anyone.

Interesting. It says "women of the believers" as well

Yes, I agree with modest/decent dressing for both and that it is not a "protection" against harm.

Well true muslims should not give off that impression and I'm sure they understand women and men have desires and it is well known from the Quran that a man and women can fall into sin not juts a man. (24:2). Another example is in the story of prophet Joseph and the wife of the king.

Yes, I mentioned that example in another post. It should definitely be quoted more in my opinion. Especially because she was a married woman.

Regardless of where this was rooted from, a person man or women who desires to be a believer and seek to abide by the laws of God will know that God strongly condemns adultery/sin (24:2).

Those who are Muslim men and think because of their urges they are able to commit adultery/sin are only fooling themselves.

However we also have to admit that adultery/fornication is not the same as a marriage bond. This needs to be appreciated. If a women has urges then they must commit to a marriage bond which has rules. Like wise for a man.

Of course! In my second post at the top, I showed a justification that was given for polygyny as a sort of protection from "inclination to sin", which is not just a male problem in the first place.
Patience, resposibility, self-constraint and control. How would it be a test otherwise?

I'll take your word for it

It's not just my word. You can even google this. There are also women who are frustrated because of their male partner's "low libido". Not everyone is the same.

There is times where a man or a women cannot find marriage and God instructs them to be patient 24:33 no matter how great the appetite for sexual relations are.

Therefore the permissibility for polygyny is not so much only to satisfy ones needs. There is wider wisdom possibly only known to the Lord Himself.

I'm more inclined to agree with this or that there is a more benefitical reason for the permissibility.

I'm sure some do not do it because they understand it hurts their families in days like today. But is it right to twist the words of God and try to some how ban it?

And maybe men who just don't want it?

We men are also possibly puzzled because we know that it hurts some of our wives and daughters and mothers. We see their curiosity as to why. But what do we do? Ban it, forbid it?
As I’m sure you will appreciate that we are believers of the Quran and accepted the Quran's veracity and believe the origin of the Quran to be from the Lord. Just because we are not able to fathom or comprehend the reason behind why God has allowed polygany for a man, we cannot simply forbid it or sweeten the message to the liking of others which I've noticed muslim men have tried to do at certain points. 

I did not "ban" it. There are, however, other interpretations too, also ones which take orphans into account.
My main problem is the fact that some men seem to think it's okay to marry for sex/looks or the idea that men struggle far more. Also, because a verse says that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was forbidden to marry more women even if their "beauty" pleased him, it apparently somehow applies to all believing men and is a sound reason for polygyny? I don't understand this interpretation/reasoning. I also don't want to believe that God acknowledges men's sexuality more and how some generalize all men as being "naturally" polygamous..

Todays world is changing fast. As always it changes in different directions all the time. From good to bad, from bad to good, or whatever roots the people choose.

It could be argued that this life is not always so pleasant and calm and will never be a heavenly abode, and the events that have unfolded in the past or will unfold in the future will possibly carry the answers to such questions and why God has chosen these rights to whatever of His creation. He encompasses all things. There does seem from a historic standpoint that women were not always against polygany so much as to how women are today. Was there something that caused or led it to be acceptable to some point? or was it a need in the world? Will it happen again?

Just some thoughts I ask myself.

God knows best.

I have also wondered that perhaps this "ruling" was not always there.

As believing men we need to understand these questions also. Its our duty to try to share as best as possible the message of God to our sisters, wives, mothers, etc. and vice versa.

We need to understand that women are going to be somewhat saddened and not comprehend as to why God has allowed it and we men will also possibly not understand its comprehension as well.

Insha'Allah other ladies would comment and give their views as well, and please do not think we are against you but take it as we also have thought about it and just sharing to what we understand best.

Peace

I know there are good and understanding men out there who want to listen.... at least, I try to believe so.

I might also just be tired of having to defend Islam to others and myself over and over.

God knows best

True.

Peace.
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: Duster April 13, 2019, 03:17:53 PM
Shalom peace brothers Athman / Hamzeh ....I just want to say that I have a lot of respect for you both ...on the forum ....Although my views haven't changed regarding this topic because I haven't seen no reason to given the types of tired arguments and questions being raised ...>>>- I do respect and appreciate your advice .... Thanks.
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: AQL April 13, 2019, 04:16:03 PM
Yes, of course you have "respect" for the men. :) I recommend you stay away from the women's section if it triggers you so much.
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: Duster April 13, 2019, 04:20:57 PM
No I just have respect for those who have a reasoned mind like the two I mentioned... I'm assuming they are men ...never met them ... could be anyone behind the keyboard ..... >>>>I have no respect for tired pathetic questions and arguments based on some twisted lefty ideological crappy attitude.... Improve your arguments if you want respect ...Just to let you know .....I wouldn't have a problem respecting a 'good' argument even if it comes from a monkey..  ....and no I don't take orders from you ... I'll go on whatever part of the this forum I want ....Keep your advice to yourself ... whoever you are...
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: AQL April 13, 2019, 04:26:48 PM
You were triggered from your very first response. :) And your arguments/points were useless and a deflection anyway. Stay away from the women's section if it triggers your fragile masculinity. It's as simple as that.
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: Duster April 13, 2019, 04:31:05 PM
My mistake was giving you any time to respond to your questions .... it wasn't my responses .. but your useless questions ... Once again ... who are you to tell me to stay away from this section? If you don't like the responses .. you leave .... HOW DARE YOU tell me what to do !!! I ain't going to roll over to your feminist attitudes ....
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: AQL April 13, 2019, 04:32:12 PM
 ::)

Salaam.
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: QM Moderators Team April 13, 2019, 04:34:42 PM
Duster & ShatteredEmblem

Please kindly refrain from any further references or responses to each other from this point onwards on this thread.

Personal attacks or 'triggers' will not be accepted no matter who it is from.

Thanks!
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: AQL April 13, 2019, 04:38:01 PM
Happy to oblige  :)
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: Truth Seeker April 13, 2019, 05:23:40 PM
Salaam all,

As a woman myself, I  can understand the frustration regarding certain Muslim countries and the seemingly 'normalised' culture of some men ogling at and groping women, even those who are wearing very conservative attire.

This type of behaviour has absolutely no place at all in Islam and men of this faith should be more careful of how they interact with the opposite gender.

ShatteredEmblem mentioned Egypt for example, a place where there is a prevalence of highly inappropriate behaviour, even towards women who are almost covered from head to toe.

This does not mean that the directive for them to cover is not working, in my opinion, it is due to a total lack of general respect towards women that some men seem to have and is has become entrenched as 'the norm'. I think that the men here need to be taught how to conduct themselves in public and maybe a media campaign with input from clergy is a much needed step in the right direction.

However I also feel that the Quran and it's directives should be heeded to and whereas there is equality for both genders when it comes to our Creator, in society there are different roles assigned to us. God who created us knows our urges and weaknesses and it is with that in mind that we see a greater emphasis placed on women when it comes to covering.

If both genders took on their roles responsibly, then we can have a more decent environment to function in. Both men and women should guard their modestly and lower their gaze. I feel that many people overlook this in particular because it actually has so many nuances to it. There is human nature and then there is a directive given to us to try to keep this in check and not behave like animals!

I do feel that men in general are more 'sexualised' than women and I really feel that we ought to acknowledge this. Of course both genders have urges and desires but as far as I am concerned, men are tuned in to this much more.That is why I feel for myself , that I should dress modestly and cover up, because I feel more safe not to be glared at in certain places where men's eyes seem to wonder.


In some aspects of our lives, inevitably there will be different tests because we are in fact different. :)
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: AQL April 13, 2019, 06:10:34 PM

ShatteredEmblem mentioned Egypt for example, a place where there is a prevalence of highly inappropriate behaviour, even towards women who are almost covered from head to toe.

This does not mean that the directive for them to cover is not working, in my opinion, it is due to a total lack of general respect towards women that some men seem to have and is has become entrenched as 'the norm'. I think that the men here need to be taught how to conduct themselves in public and maybe a media campaign with input from clergy is a much needed step in the right direction.

Salaam,

Yes, I think it's a lack of respect towards women in general. If you only respect someone/their boundaries based on their clothes, then it's not really respect. If you watch the video, you'll see the mentality of the harassers and how clothing to them does not really matter.
I personally think it is not working, or at least not everywhere. I mean, even near God's house..
It may work in the west though (not against Islamophobia) because certain types of Muslim men seem to respect women in headscarves/abaya more than those without.

I think a lot of Muslims in the west are ignorant of or don't acknowledge what women in the east go through. Or even women in some Muslim households in the west.

In some aspects of our lives, inevitably there will be different tests because we are in fact different. :)

Yep.

I do feel that men in general are more 'sexualised' than women and I really feel that we ought to acknowledge this. Of course both genders have urges and desires but as far as I am concerned, men are tuned in to this much more.That is why I feel for myself , that I should dress modestly and cover up, because I feel more safe not to be glared at in certain places where men's eyes seem to wonder.

I feel that sociey has also shaped men in general into believing this is the case ..

Do you wear the headscarf?

Both men and women should guard their modestly and lower their gaze

Agreed. :)
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: Truth Seeker April 13, 2019, 08:10:23 PM
Dear ShatteredEmblem,

I agree when you mention that some people in the West are unaware of the extent of harassment that women can receive in certain majority Muslim countries.I must stress 'certain' as other places seem to be in balance so I am not sure what is behind the cultural mindset of those offending countries.

For things like this to happen in Makkah is truly outrageous but remember that it is frequented by so many different nationals who seem to bring their own cultural baggage with them. Being a Holy sanctuary doesn't seem to deter the many thieves that lurk about and steal whilst pilgrims are praying and worshipping!

So again it comes down to personal responsibility and really looking at what the faith commands of you as a servant of God. Sadly many people only focus on certain aspects of faith for example strictly consuming only halal meat, yet might think its okay to watch x rated movies.

Regarding men being more sexualised than women, I am not sure that society can be blamed for it as such because men do actually 'think' differently in this department and this is well know and documented.

I actually think that society now (especially in the West) is pushing a movement where women under the guise of so called 'empowerment' are almost trying to compete with men in terms of their sexual conduct. In their quest for equality they stooping to  becoming debased and are in turn playing into men's fantasies!

I do cover my hair, with a headscarf or hats depending on where I am going as I like to be flexible but still cover :)
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: AQL April 14, 2019, 01:59:40 AM
Dear ShatteredEmblem,

I agree when you mention that some people in the West are unaware of the extent of harassment that women can receive in certain majority Muslim countries.I must stress 'certain' as other places seem to be in balance so I am not sure what is behind the cultural mindset of those offending countries.

For things like this to happen in Makkah is truly outrageous but remember that it is frequented by so many different nationals who seem to bring their own cultural baggage with them. Being a Holy sanctuary doesn't seem to deter the many thieves that lurk about and steal whilst pilgrims are praying and worshipping!

So again it comes down to personal responsibility and really looking at what the faith commands of you as a servant of God. Sadly many people only focus on certain aspects of faith for example strictly consuming only halal meat, yet might think its okay to watch x rated movies.

Regarding men being more sexualised than women, I am not sure that society can be blamed for it as such because men do actually 'think' differently in this department and this is well know and documented.

I do cover my hair, with a headscarf or hats depending on where I am going as I like to be flexible but still cover :)

I do think that Muslims should start looking at their own countries and fixing their own problems instead of just blaming/focusing on the west..

Of course culture can play a part in it, but if some people hold the belief that only fully clothed women are worthy of respect because God commands women to cover, then their view of religion plays a part, imo.

I personally think society in general has definitely contributed to the hypersexual aspect of it. Men are usually not taught the same level of shame, modesty and decency as women. That the idea of being shameful/shy should also apply to them. Girls, especially in Muslim households, often have more restrictions put on them. Men are often able to express themselves more openly, not judged as much, more explicit content is geared towards men, not blamed for promoting indecency as much as women, there is more objectification of women's bodies..
In mainstream Islam, men are "enticed" with the idea of multiple wives, sex slaves, hoor al ayn.. if this isn't sexualizing their minds then what is?
The fact that men can get away with such nastiness even near the Kabah just shows the leniency (lack of a better word) of society towards men..

I have seen the double standards also on social media. For example, with Pakistani actresses. When an actress shows some skin, there will be so many awful and nasty comments about her but if a Pakistani actor poses shirtless or in a vest, showing off his toned body, it's mostly positive comments and even "MashaAllah"..

I actually think that society now (especially in the West) is pushing a movement where women under the guise of so called 'empowerment' are almost trying to compete with men in terms of their sexual conduct. In their quest for equality they stooping to  becoming debased and are in turn playing into men's fantasies!

Some, perhaps. I'm not talking about the "radicals" anyway. They are mostly a minority but seem to get a lot of attention. Kind of like Muslim radicals/terrorists. Nowadays, we even have weird things like MRA (men's rights activists) so.. lol.

Or perhaps now that there is somewhat less stigma associated with women showing their sexuality (in the west), they feel they are more free to do so.

But if we're talking about the west, I don't see why this would be surprising. They are generally much more open about sexuality. They accept homosexuality and also slowly trans people.. 
However, it's not like plenty of men and women don't get up to certain things in Muslim countries as well. It's just more hidden there.


: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: Duster April 14, 2019, 03:20:36 AM
I actually think that society now (especially in the West) is pushing a movement where women under the guise of so called 'empowerment' are almost trying to compete with men in terms of their sexual conduct. In their quest for equality they stooping to  becoming debased and are in turn playing into men's fantasies!

Shalom / peace Truthseeker ... Thanks for your comments....>>> I actually agree with the above and generally what you have said ....it makes sense .... I have a question for you as a respected sister .... why do you think there are verses in the Qur'an which focus on women's coverage and not on men's as much .....>>>????
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: Truth Seeker April 14, 2019, 05:04:01 PM
Salaam Duster,

I may get lambasted for this but I feel the focus on women to cover is to guard themselves from the attention of men.

Men who I feel are definitely driven by their sexual hormones , much more than women are. As far as I am aware, men get  consumed with sexual thoughts that get triggered quite easily.

God created them that way but maybe their test in that area is going to be harder because they have been ordered to restrain themselves.
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: AQL April 14, 2019, 06:50:20 PM
Anyway, I got two responses on the 33:59 that the word does not actually mean protection from harm which was one of my questions at least. Clothing does not protect from abuse as has been proven in many cases.

Lock this thread if you want. Too much deflection going on.
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: QM Moderators Team April 14, 2019, 08:23:56 PM
ShatteredEmblem,

We will lock a thread if we deem appropriate, not simply because someone has requested it. Members are free to post on this thread unless they have been specifically asked not to. At present, the discussion is continuing and apart from a moderator intervention we have had to make (which we haven't seen flouted since), we see no other reason to lock it. You are free not to participate on the thread if you don't wish to.

Thanks.
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: AQL April 14, 2019, 08:49:54 PM
I started it, so of course I will respond.  ??? Even though the thread is being derailed.
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: AQL April 14, 2019, 09:11:51 PM
Here are a few articles about harassment near the Kabah:

https://stepfeed.com/women-are-speaking-out-about-being-sexually-harassed-during-hajj-8156 (https://stepfeed.com/women-are-speaking-out-about-being-sexually-harassed-during-hajj-8156)

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/03/08/middleeast/hajj-sexual-abuse-asequals-iwd-intl/index.html (https://edition.cnn.com/2018/03/08/middleeast/hajj-sexual-abuse-asequals-iwd-intl/index.html)

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2018/02/26/588855132/-mosquemetoo-gives-muslim-women-a-voice-about-sexual-misconduct-at-mecca?t=1555011392335 (https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2018/02/26/588855132/-mosquemetoo-gives-muslim-women-a-voice-about-sexual-misconduct-at-mecca?t=1555011392335)



: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: QM Moderators Team April 14, 2019, 09:32:34 PM
I started it, so of course I will respond.  ??? Even though the thread is being derailed.

ShatteredEmblem,

We responded to your 'Report to moderator' which stated 'Please lock it'. The reason you gave was not acceptable to us, hence we have responded.

Thanks.
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: Duster April 14, 2019, 09:35:15 PM
Salaam Duster,

I may get lambasted for this but I feel the focus on women to cover is to guard themselves from the attention of men.

Men who I feel are definitely driven by their sexual hormones , much more than women are. As far as I am aware, men get  consumed with sexual thoughts that get triggered quite easily.

God created them that way but maybe their test in that area is going to be harder because they have been ordered to restrain themselves.

Shalom / peace sister ....>>thanks for sharing ...appreciated ....
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: AQL April 14, 2019, 09:52:01 PM
Here are two videos about Egypt and sexual harassment:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfNQalkT3Uc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfNQalkT3Uc)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gja05symHkk&t=311s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gja05symHkk&t=311s)

There is still a culture of blaming the victim, especially when it's a woman. No wonder this problem is not improving because so many people find excuses for men.
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: Truth Seeker April 14, 2019, 10:47:35 PM

I have said before here that that it is not right for men to leer at women let alone grope them.

Those doing this next to the Kabbah is disgusting and this would clearly break their state of Ihraam.

Again, it's all about personal accountability. Unfortunately this type of behaviour can only be corrected on a macro-level with a multifaceted approach by leaders across the board.

In the videos about Egyptian men..this is a blatant display of the thought processes I mentioned in my earlier post. They are showing you what they are thinking and that's scary.

Scary because in other countries, where there is no such overt behaviour in public by men, it leads me to ask 'are they thinking like this inside?' At the end of the day they are all men.

You can never stop harassment fully even if you cover up in a conservative Islamic manner but I definitely feel that  you can lessen it to quite an extent.

I say this from personal experience as I can compare this to the period of time when I didn't cover and wore a different type of attire.

I don't want to give men a chance to 'look me over' and I feel I can control this somewhat by controlling what I wear and therefore am more empowered because unfortunately I can't force them to look away.
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: AQL April 15, 2019, 12:46:37 AM
That's good for you, Truth Seeker, if that has been your experience wherever you live. You are entitiled to your opinion and choices. :) I agree with taking certain types of precautions to a certain extent but as long as men like those exist, it's not going to change/help much. And if a woman, man or child did not take those precautions, it does not mean the rapist/harasser now has diminished responsibility for his actions or the victim has blame.
I've also read that a person is more likely to be raped by someone they know.

Unfortunately, not all women are as lucky and there are cases where they are even harassed in full covering. We should sympathize with them regardless of their clothing. Even prostitutes do not want to be raped. I think more men (and some women) should watch these videos, learn the facts and open their eyes to reality. What excuse do male harassers and rapists have when the victim is a child, an elderly woman or even another man? We need to put the blame where it belongs. On the perpetrator.

Even if men generally do have a bigger problem with their sexuality, it's not an excuse. It would mean men have an even bigger responsibility than women, which many of them are failing at, as we can see.
I agree that it needs to be addressed on a wider scale. Without focus on attire, victim blaming and excuses but real solutions and punishments.
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: Athman April 15, 2019, 09:33:51 AM
Dear ShatteredEmblem,

Wa alaikumus salaam,

Thanks for your reactions. Kindly see my replies in blue to your comments.

"Surely, God knows that women also struggle."

I do concur.

"Or perhaps it is the way the Muslim community and society at large treats women, their expectations of women, that overshadows this."

Maybe. Given that I don't subscribe to such perspectives, may I please reserve my opinion. My position on this is purely Qur'anic.


"All this surely shows that not everyone is the same. Not all men are polygamous and not all women are monogamous."

Somehow true. As mentioned earlier, in that case, the Qur'an recognizes such differences and provides for/ allows polygyny (not polygamy). It does not sanction it, order it nor discourage it but allows/ provides for it. I understand that we might not agree on this since you see such a provision as just made in the case of fear of unjustly treating orphans. However, if you do acknowledge that polygyny is specifically provided for in the case of unjustly treated orphans, would you then admit that Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w) married more than one wife (33:28, 33:59) since he also feared not to or possibly used to unjustly treat the orphans? Will you also admit that the option of one wife is in the context of mistreated orphans (4:3) hence also only applies to orphan related situations? Will you then cite another Qur’anic verse which prescribes for the default one wife in generally other situations where orphans are not the main concern?

As a system, in Islam, marriage life is wholly networked such that one breach of a stipulated directive could lead to a disruption in at least one aspect down the chain of related issues. An attempt to insinuate ‘seeming’ other possibilities could result to a whole redefinition of the structure. You posit, “not all women are monogamous." For the case of the discussion, let’s assume polyandry is provided for. Let’s then theoretically assume a case of a deceased husband of a polyandrous wife. How would she cater for her other husbands’ possible needed attention when on a 4 months 10 days waiting period, according to the Qur’an? How would she even emotionally heal if she is to attend to some other households who may possibly need her presence? Other issues to do with other social domains like inheritance may also come up. Kindly think about this.

"Or that perhaps, the rules were not always the same?"

I do admit that laws could be different amongst nations sent prophets. However, for a particular field of interest, not necessarily that laws should be different. Some laws could still have thrived all along if not overlapping aspects. Otherwise, am yet to even hear from hearsay a case of God acknowledged polyandry case to have ever been there.


"I don't agree with generalizing people."

I concur, people are different. However, as regards certain matters, the Qur'an is specific with the general of a particular group e.g, gender, in this case that of men's 'al-shahawati' to women (3:14). This does not however mean that men have an excuse to entertain lust for women, it is simply an undeniable fact acknowledged by God. Whether one is to accept such a God acknowledged truth is a matter of their faith. After all, with respect to sexual urge, as noted previously, both sexes should exercise self-restraint (wa an taswbiru khairu lakum) - 4:25.


"I don't feel it's fair to just look at the verse about polygamy or even verse 3:14 (isn't the word used there humans/people/mankind?) coupled with society's hypersexual view of men to justify their behaviour, generalize men and women, and victim blame women."

I hope that this is a general statement. Otherwise, as for my stance, I don't think I can put it more clearly than does the verse 14 of Suratul Imran (3). It appears from your approach that you are bent on justifying that anyone who appreciates the fact stated in 3:14 is influenced with certain societal sensibilities. You also misconstrue my position insinuating a masculine 'hypersexual' influence without warrant. Otherwise I do assume that this with the subsequent statement was meant to be general and not what I consider your interpolation of my humble position.

"Also, those are also two separate verses."

I do agree.

"3:14 does not speak about orphans."

Nor did I suggest in any way possible that it addresses an orphan oriented context. In as much as it can be disputed that the two verses are unrelated and do address specific subjects, you may want to appreciate why I presented those verses together. After all, respectfully, it was not my intention to expound the subject of polygyny from the Qur'an. Not that my understanding of polygyny as depicted in the Qur'an is wholly evidenced by verse 4:3. I simply thought that you are familiar with the subject and do recognize the verses where it is generally alluded to. You may want to refer to Br. Joseph's article [1] on this where he argues for a similar stance: an allowance, not a sanction. Furthermore, in light of 4:3, the provision/ allowance also comes with it a proviso: that of enabled justice (al-laa ta'dilu).

"The verse after that actually speaks of "purified spouses" in Jannah which would apply to both, I think you'll agree."

I do concur. However, the context plays a key role in identifying the gender addressed in 3:14. They were possibly men being mobilized into battlefield. A reminder is made as to the temporary worldly treasures that shall come to waste (3:14) then an assurance to the eternal Bliss is guaranteed for sincere believers (3:15). Though this is again reminded of in 8:28 and reiterated in 8:67 as regards the general worldly pleasures (children and wealth) for people, am yet to find out if you accept those people (an-nas) addressed in 3:14 do include 'women' who are also adorned for the lust of other 'women' (an-Nisai).


"Do you think that it is mere speculation based on "pre-conceived notion" that God allowed polygamy because of men's supposed "sexual nature"? Or did I misunderstand your point?"

I also didn't get your point here. Kindly clarify.


"If we are to speak of "pre-conceived notions of their general world views", then it is often society that leads men to believe they are supposed to have hyper-sexual animal insticts with a lack of control, when some decent men would probably take offence to being described as such."

As stated above, my position in this is taken from the Qur'an. The way I see it, verse 3:14 is clear on this. Refer to my response above.

"Men can also be a cause of unwanted attention based on their clothing, so decency applies to them too which is not emphasized as much."

I do not fully agree. It is true that men could also cause unwarranted attraction where possible. Verses 24:30-31 as shared above address both genders as regards lowering ones gaze and guarding ones privates (wayahfadhu furujahum). However, I do not see the elucidatory remarks in 24:31 for the ladies to be an emphasis way far as compared to the directive in 24:30 for males. Rather, I find it elaborating on the extent of their decency/ modesty. As much as equality is cited as an aspect to be considered, I do humbly submit that the two sexes have differences in their body physique and 'attractive pockets' hence a difference to how one can be indecently exposed. Thus, a more natural tendency to cause unwarranted attraction for the females is posed if the prescriptions in 24:31 are not fully heeded. Again, this is in line with 33:59.

Dear sister, with the idea of equality, I am not convinced that this is the Qur'anic concept that establishes within familial or social matters. Rather, I find equity as the theme advanced. Furthermore, while I appreciate your honesty especially with respect to the undermined status of the woman in some Islamic societies, generally speaking, as regards God professed directives and provisions, I have to humbly remind one that there’s sincerity and then there’s humility. Kindly consider this. Islam is a complete system of life that has a balanced structure that should be understood, as extending to the basic rights, responsibilities and provisions in all possible areas of a believer’s life. As noted in my previous response, this should be the basic premise.

Regards,
Athman.

REFERENCE:
[1]. MARRYING FOUR WIVES IN ISLAM

http://quransmessage.com/articles/four%20wives%20FM3.htm
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: AQL April 15, 2019, 12:03:42 PM
Salam Athman,

Thanks for your response as well.

Somehow true. As mentioned earlier, in that case, the Qur'an recognizes such differences and provides for/ allows polygyny (not polygamy). It does not sanction it, order it nor discourage it but allows/ provides for it. I understand that we might not agree on this since you see such a provision as just made in the case of fear of unjustly treating orphans. However, if you do acknowledge that polygyny is specifically provided for in the case of unjustly treated orphans, would you then admit that Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w) married more than one wife (33:28, 33:59) since he also feared not to or possibly used to unjustly treat the orphans? Will you also admit that the option of one wife is in the context of mistreated orphans (4:3) hence also only applies to orphan related situations? Will you then cite another Qur’anic verse which prescribes for the default one wife in generally other situations where orphans are not the main concern?

As a system, in Islam, marriage life is wholly networked such that one breach of a stipulated directive could lead to a disruption in at least one aspect down the chain of related issues. An attempt to insinuate ‘seeming’ other possibilities could result to a whole redefinition of the structure. You posit, “not all women are monogamous." For the case of the discussion, let’s assume polyandry is provided for. Let’s then theoretically assume a case of a deceased husband of a polyandrous wife. How would she cater for her other husbands’ possible needed attention when on a 4 months 10 days waiting period, according to the Qur’an? How would she even emotionally heal if she is to attend to some other households who may possibly need her presence? Other issues to do with other social domains like inheritance may also come up. Kindly think about this.

I find that to be a stretch. That is not the only place in the Qur'an where God talks about marriage. But the verse where "polygyny" is mentioned, God talks about orphans.

I did not say poyandry is allowed or even should be. I said not all women are monogamous, meaning not all women want one man at a time or one man for the rest of their lives. Just how not all men are polygamous or want multiple women. Would you agree with that?

I do admit that laws could be different amongst nations sent prophets. However, for a particular field of interest, not necessarily that laws should be different. Some laws could still have thrived all along if not overlapping aspects. Otherwise, am yet to even hear from hearsay a case of God acknowledged polyandry case to have ever been there.


Perhaps "polygyny" was not allowed in some other time.

I concur, people are different. However, as regards certain matters, the Qur'an is specific with the general of a particular group e.g, gender, in this case that of men's 'al-shahawati' to women (3:14). This does not however mean that men have an excuse to entertain lust for women, it is simply an undeniable fact acknowledged by God. Whether one is to accept such a God acknowledged truth is a matter of their faith. After all, with respect to sexual urge, as noted previously, both sexes should exercise self-restraint (wa an taswbiru khairu lakum) - 4:25.


I hope that this is a general statement. Otherwise, as for my stance, I don't think I can put it more clearly than does the verse 14 of Suratul Imran (3). It appears from your approach that you are bent on justifying that anyone who appreciates the fact stated in 3:14 is influenced with certain societal sensibilities. You also misconstrue my position insinuating a masculine 'hypersexual' influence without warrant. Otherwise I do assume that this with the subsequent statement was meant to be general and not what I consider your interpolation of my humble position.

Of course it's a general statement.
Where did you pull that assumption out of? I also recommend that you keep this respectful. It seems that you are trying to imply that I am dimissing a Qur'ans verse?  Do you remember this verse 49:12?
If God mentions only men, does it mean God does not understand women's struggles and wants? Does it automatically mean women generally do not want wealth, children, gold and silver or men? Unfortunately, there are women who have also played a part in burying daughters and being in favour of sons. It's not a strictly male phenomenon.

I would recommend you also try to understand the wisdom behind the story of Prophet Yusuf pbuh and "Zulaykha".

Nor did I suggest in any way possible that it addresses an orphan oriented context. In as much as it can be disputed that the two verses are unrelated and do address specific subjects, you may want to appreciate why I presented those verses together. After all, respectfully, it was not my intention to expound the subject of polygyny from the Qur'an. Not that my understanding of polygyny as depicted in the Qur'an is wholly evidenced by verse 4:3. I simply thought that you are familiar with the subject and do recognize the verses where it is generally alluded to. You may want to refer to Br. Joseph's article [1] on this where he argues for a similar stance: an allowance, not a sanction. Furthermore, in light of 4:3, the provision/ allowance also comes with it a proviso: that of enabled justice (al-laa ta'dilu).

I am familiar with the verses.
For now, I believe in the interpretation which takes orphans/proper benefits into account. I really don't understand the sort of "Mr Joseph Islam is always right" type of mentality that some seem to have on this forum. Please respect my understanding. I do not find your argument convincing nor did I come here to debate that verse.
Let's agree to disagree.

I do concur. However, the context plays a key role in identifying the gender addressed in 3:14. They were possibly men being mobilized into battlefield. A reminder is made as to the temporary worldly treasures that shall come to waste (3:14) then an assurance to the eternal Bliss is guaranteed for sincere believers (3:15). Though this is again reminded of in 8:28 and reiterated in 8:67 as regards the general worldly pleasures (children and wealth) for people, am yet to find out if you accept those people (an-nas) addressed in 3:14 do include 'women' who are also adorned for the lust of other 'women' (an-Nisai).


"Possibly"?
Am I understanding this correctly, you think the "purified spouses" mentioned in that verse are only for men? Please clarify.
No, if we are going to restrict meanings based on the gender assigned, the subject and object then it would mean verses like 24:4 would also not apply to men who are being accused..

I do not fully agree. It is true that men could also cause unwarranted attraction where possible. Verses 24:30-31 as shared above address both genders as regards lowering ones gaze and guarding ones privates (wayahfadhu furujahum). However, I do not see the elucidatory remarks in 24:31 for the ladies to be an emphasis way far as compared to the directive in 24:30 for males. Rather, I find it elaborating on the extent of their decency/ modesty. As much as equality is cited as an aspect to be considered, I do humbly submit that the two sexes have differences in their body physique and 'attractive pockets' hence a difference to how one can be indecently exposed. Thus, a more natural tendency to cause unwarranted attraction for the females is posed if the prescriptions in 24:31 are not fully heeded. Again, this is in line with 33:59.

Dear sister, with the idea of equality, I am not convinced that this is the Qur'anic concept that establishes within familial or social matters. Rather, I find equity as the theme advanced. Furthermore, while I appreciate your honesty especially with respect to the undermined status of the woman in some Islamic societies, generally speaking, as regards God professed directives and provisions, I have to humbly remind one that there’s sincerity and then there’s humility. Kindly consider this. Islam is a complete system of life that has a balanced structure that should be understood, as extending to the basic rights, responsibilities and provisions in all possible areas of a believer’s life. As noted in my previous response, this should be the basic premise.

Where did I mention equality? Please do not make assumptions about my position. I speak about women's rights, their situation, and the hypocrisy of society which is very much prevalent. Even if you believe in equity or equality, hopefully you agree that, in a general sense, neither of those are being enforced by men in this world.

Of course we will not agree about everything and that is fine. But I believe in what I said. I think decent/modest dressing applies to men as well. I don't believe in the "navel to the knees" mainstream belief.

My main points of discussion were women's sexuality and sexual abuse/rape and clothing being used as an excuse. Not about debating the "polygyny" verse. If you actually want to discuss the problem of sexual harassment in places like Egypt or outside the Kabah or even the west then let's do it.

Salaam.
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: Truth Seeker April 15, 2019, 01:59:00 PM
Dear ShatteredEmblem,



For now, I believe in the interpretation which takes orphans/proper benefits into account. I really don't understand the sort of "Mr Joseph Islam is always right" type of mentality that some seem to have on this forum. Please respect my understanding.

I strongly feel that there was no need to make the statement you just did regarding Joseph Islam. Our forum members are intelligent and rightly try to research and scrutinize the Quran to the best of their abilities.

If some forum members happen to agree with Joseph Islam's works, it is because his arguments and detailed analysis of the Quran seem convincing to them.

Of course there are a lot of people who respect his large body of work, both on this forum and outside (academics and non academics) but this is purely as a function of his arguments alone because he is completely anonymous.


In fact, there is a whole section on this forum dedicated for critiques and debates which can be found here:

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?board=23.0


: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: AQL April 15, 2019, 03:07:14 PM
Dear ShatteredEmblem,



For now, I believe in the interpretation which takes orphans/proper benefits into account. I really don't understand the sort of "Mr Joseph Islam is always right" type of mentality that some seem to have on this forum. Please respect my understanding.

I strongly feel that there was no need to make the statement you just did regarding Joseph Islam. Our forum members are intelligent and rightly try to research and scrutinize the Quran to the best of their abilities.

If some forum members happen to agree with Joseph Islam's works, it is because his arguments and detailed analysis of the Quran seem convincing to them.

Of course there are a lot of people who respect his large body of work, both on this forum and outside (academics and non academics) but this is purely as a function of his arguments alone because he is completely anonymous.


In fact, there is a whole section on this forum dedicated for critiques and debates which can be found here:

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?board=23.0

I personally find a lot of his articles are reasonable  and make sense but of course I do not agree with all of them/everything he says. Some of his challengers definitely bring good points/arguments as well.
But what I said is how I feel so I said it. It's as simple as that.

It seems this forum isn't so open after all.
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: Truth Seeker April 15, 2019, 03:40:38 PM
Dear ShatteredEmblem,

I have noticed you make flippant comments on the forum and don't want anyone to pull you up on it. The statement you made to Athman "I really don't understand the sort of "Mr Joseph Islam is always right" type of mentality that some seem to have on this forum" seemed to me to be totally random and made out of frustration on your part. Let alone it not being linked to what he was trying to explain to you, which I actually felt was well balanced and thought out, with lots of references given.

Lets say that there are some people who agree with Joseph Islam on all his points, why does that bother you?  They have that right as you have the right not to agree. After I discuss topics with other members here and they have a different view from me,I don't get frustrated but rather think 'Each to their own'.


You said:"It seems this forum isn't so open after all". I actually feel it is very open but you have to be prepared to be challenged too. We have a code of conduct that is a remit for any discussions here. You have complained about forum members making personal attacks on you, yet you seem to be attacking others here willy-nilly.
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: AQL April 15, 2019, 03:54:50 PM
Dear ShatteredEmblem,

I have noticed you make flippant comments on the forum and don't want anyone to pull you up on it. The statement you made to Athman "I really don't understand the sort of "Mr Joseph Islam is always right" type of mentality that some seem to have on this forum" seemed to me to be totally random and made out of frustration on your part. Let alone it not being linked to what he was trying to explain to you, which I actually felt was well balanced and thought out, with lots of references given.

Lets say that there are some people who agree with Joseph Islam on all his points, why does that bother you?  They have that right as you have the right not to agree. After I discuss topics with other members here and they have a different view from me,I don't get frustrated but rather think 'Each to their own'.


You said:"It seems this forum isn't so open after all". I actually feel it is very open but you have to be prepared to be challenged too. We have a code of conduct that is a remit for any discussions here. You have complained about forum members making personal attacks on you, yet you seem to be attacking others here willy-nilly.

He is pushing the same interpretation. You may "feel" it wasn't linked but that's your opinion. That part in blue is again your opinion and what you "felt".
Sure, you may "feel" the forum is open but when I say I "feel" something, apparently it's offensive.  ::) Are you actually an admin?
"Challenged"? I've been responding to the people who are responding to me.
Where did I attack anyone? Go on. And I reported one person for personally attacking me BECAUSE THEY DID.
If you are offended over something like this, it's not really my problem.
The issue here seems to be that I do not agree with that interpretation of the "polygyny" verse. Kind of proves my point really.
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: AQL April 15, 2019, 04:58:03 PM
Interestingly just saw this

https://www.instagram.com/p/BwRnFMxld34/
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: Truth Seeker April 15, 2019, 05:14:14 PM
You said:
"He is pushing the same interpretation"
And? What if he is? Why is this such a problem that you made a personal attack at him IMO Unwarranted and ad hominem attack.

You said:
"Sure, you may "feel" the forum is open but when I say I "feel" something, apparently it's offensive."
When you and others are pulled up on something it is done within the remit of the forum rules and etiquettes.

You said:

"Where did I attack anyone? Go on. And I reported one person for personally attacking me BECAUSE THEY DID."
I gave you an example above regarding Athman. Yes you reported one person several times whilst still engaging with him telling him to leave the women's section which is not exclusively for women btw. You were both told not to communicate with each other and you both duly obliged. However after this you proceeded to request privately that we lock the forum which seemed strange and really geared towards you stifling the forum member with which you had an issue, from sharing comments with other members.


You said:

"If you are offended over something like this, it's not really my problem. The issue here seems to be that I do not agree with that interpretation of the "polygyny" verse. Kind of proves my point really."
I can assure you that I am not offended by you, I am merely pointing out to you and to and have done to other members in the past, to remember to stay focused on the discussion at hand and not digress into pettiness.

: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: AQL April 15, 2019, 05:44:50 PM

And? What if he is? Why is this such a problem that you made a personal attack at him IMO Unwarranted and ad hominem attack.

When you and others are pulled up on something it is done within the remit of the forum rules and etiquettes.

I gave you an example above regarding Athman. Yes you reported one person several times whilst still engaging with him telling him to leave the women's section which is not exclusively for women btw. You were both told not to communicate with each other and you both duly obliged. However after this you proceeded to request privately that we lock the forum which seemed strange and really geared towards you stifling the forum member with which you had an issue, from sharing comments with other members.

I can assure you that I am not offended by you, I am merely pointing out to you and to and have done to other members in the past, to remember to stay focused on the discussion at hand and not digress into pettiness.

  • I can also assure you that we have dealt with a lot more contentious issues here compared to your interpretation/view of polygyny so no that is not 'the issue here.'
  • Finally, yes I am actually an admin, who has been a member here since the forum's inception many years ago and am well known to the more seasoned members here.

I did not attack him personally. That is just unfortunately how you "feel". And it's kind of funny how you did not come up with all this when that other guy actually personally attacked me. You did not address him when he was resorting to his rude behavior but instead, you are purposefully bringing that up again even though it's finished.
You keep making assumptions and accusations. You said I have been attacking others "willy nilly". Give me examples, back it up.
You seem so offended that I made that comment. I will stand by it. Since you can say how you "feel" about me, I can also express how I "feel".
As for locking the THREAD, you can make assumptions all day long about why, where, what. I already responded to that guy anyway.
Interesting that you mention "stifling". I already mentioned how I "feel" this forum isn't so open. You can ban me since you don't seem to like my views. I expected that here anyway.
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: Truth Seeker April 15, 2019, 06:19:18 PM

This matter has become unnecessarily protracted, and I have said what I needed to say.

If you want to participate on the forum, go ahead. if you feel that this forum does not allow you to express your opinions, you are free to go elsewhere.

: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: Truth Seeker April 15, 2019, 06:33:39 PM
ShatteredEmblem,

Moving on, please could you kindly summarise with bullet points what views of yours you feel the forum members should agree with. The topics on this thread seem to have become conflated and the discussion has branched out to polygyny.

: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: AQL April 15, 2019, 06:47:18 PM
Sigh.

My very first post was pretty clear and numbered. If someone still wants to respond to that, they can. And to the issue of rape/sexual assault in Muslim countries. Or to the topic of hypocrisy and double standards towards women and their sexuality.
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: Truth Seeker April 15, 2019, 06:51:47 PM
Sigh. That wasn't what I asked. I asked your views in summary, bullet pointed. Your first post were questions. Never mind.

: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: Athman April 15, 2019, 07:06:08 PM
Dear ShatteredEmblem,

See below my replies in blue to your contentions.

“I find that to be a stretch.”

Again, I am sorry if in any way I misrepresented your position. Otherwise, as far as your choice of words and assertive statements are concerned, I didn’t misconstrue what you presented. The standard used in the following statement of yours appears inclusive and suggests an exacted comparison.

“Not all men are polygamous and not all women are monogamous”


You argued:

“But the verse where "polygyny" is mentioned, God talks about orphans.”

And it is in the same verse where God is talking from an orphan oriented context where the mention of ‘only one’ wife is also found for where justice is also feared to be uupheld.

“...meaning not all women want one man at a time or one man for the rest of their lives.”

What is the purpose of presenting such an argument dear sister if not insinuating a needed provision for polyandry to strike a gender balance in such matters for where polygyny is understood to be a general provision? Otherwise, would you kindly clarify please if this is not what you mean.

“Just how not all men are polygamous or want multiple women. Would you agree with that?”

Sure, I do concur.

“Perhaps "polygyny" was not allowed in some other time.”

Am I to understand this as a mere speculation dear sister?

“Where did you pull that assumption out of? I also recommend that you keep this respectful.”

I do understand and expect that when you are responding to my comments, you assume a position where you are dealing with my contentions and not others.’ Otherwise, it is important to note if it’s a general statement you are making. This is because, in your response, you collectively took my presentation of verses 4:3 and 3:14 for the contention made 'coupling' it with other people’s views to make your contention. See the following citation:

"I don't feel it's fair to just look at the verse about polygamy or even verse 3:14 (isn't the word used there humans/people/mankind?) coupled with society's hypersexual view of men to justify their behaviour, generalize men and women, and victim blame women."


You asked:

“It seems that you are trying to imply that I am dimissing a Qur'ans verse?”

Not really. Respectfully, as far as I am concerned, I find your interpretation of verse 3:14 to be made devoid of its context.

“Do you remember this verse 49:12?”

I do know the verse dear sister. However, as far as I am concerned, sincerely speaking, I am not indulged into any kind of suspicion (ad-dhwanna) whatsoever. Rather, once again I do mention that your choice of words and interpolation of my position coupling it with those of others appear to be unnecessarily contentious.

“If God mentions only men, does it mean God does not understand women's struggles and wants? Does it automatically mean women generally do not want wealth, children, gold and silver or men?”

Dear sister, would you kindly take time to carefully look into the argument and verses cited. With all due respect, I did mention verses 8:28 and 8:67 as regards a warning against worldly pleasures that are normally sought after and an assurance of eternal Bliss of the Hereafter for all people (men and women). However, I posited that verse 3:14 was a specific address to men combatants hinted with the mention of such a worldly adornment of lust for women (an-Nisai). I hope you may now at least agree with me that 3:14 addresses men (given such mention of lust for women) even if you will not agree to what is argued for as a general intense lust adorned for man to a woman.

“Unfortunately, there are women who have also played a part in burying daughters and being in favour of sons. It's not a strictly male phenomenon.”

Even if this can be academically proven, it was not my point though. The point is: despite natural inclinations of a typical yearning towards opposite sex for both men and women, in 3:14, God acknowledges an intense lust for women adorned for men (3:14).

“I would recommend you also try to understand the wisdom behind the story of Prophet Yusuf pbuh and "Zulaykha".”

I do know that much wisdom can be extracted from the Prophet Yusuf's story in this regard dear sister. By the way, it is a viable standard. It was actually a two-way struggle (walaqad hammat bihi wahamma biha) - 12:24. However, just because Prophet Yusuf (a.s) restrained his desires whereas his master’s wife yielded doesn’t preclude any possibility that Prophet Yusuf (a.s) could be naturally more or less intensely capacitated with lust for women. Same applies to the mistress. This doesn’t in any way prove that a male or a female is equally, less or more adorned to lust for the opposite sex. It was a case of exercised volition.

While it was the mistress who plotted a seduction (wara wadat-hu), Prophet Yusuf (a.s) remained self-restraint refraining from the same (ma’adha allahi) - 12:23 again strengthened with God’s intervention (ar-ra a burhana rabbihi) - 12:24. The mistress’ mischief can further be evidenced by what she falsely claims in 12:25. After all that what transpired, she still would not heed as can be evidenced in 12:32 (walain lam yaf’al maa aamuruhu).This is not proof in any way that she had a stronger yearning than did Prophet Yusuf (a.s). It only proves her freely spiritually unguided treacherous and evil character. The same would have been accounted if it would have been the other way round for the two characters.

“For now, I believe in the interpretation which takes orphans/proper benefits into account. I really don't understand the sort of "Mr Joseph Islam is always right" type of mentality that some seem to have on this forum. Please respect my understanding. I do not find your argument convincing nor did I come here to debate that verse.
Let's agree to disagree.”

I don’t think it has ever been mentioned or insinuated in this forum that “Mr Joseph Islam is always right.” Unless you cite a possible insinuation to the same, I don’t think I can comment on that. As regards Br. Joseph’s article on polygyny as referenced above, I do agree with the exposition and thus simply referenced the article to acknowledge the position therein which, too, is my own. I don’t intend to rehash a treatise on that on this forum hence my humble reference. I am neither debating a particular verse dear sister. I just respond to your sentiments of contention. If warranted, we can as such yes possibly agree to disagree.

I also second Truthseeker's advice to you that there wasn't a need to even jot such a statement concerning Br. Joseph as regards what you feel is assumed of him. I, myself do ask for his opinion where I feel to [1], [2], [3], ask for clarification of his position where possible [4] and as well express my disagreement where necessary [5]. I also do reserve my opinions for where I may not fully agree with his where I feel to. Respectfully, this is different from the way you do, e.g, by jotting down such an unnecessary statement about him.

"Possibly"?

Once again I do reiterate, the context in this case is key to identify the addressees. I also provided verses 8:28 and 8:67 to acknowledge God’s recognition of all people’s desires in general for worldly treasures.

“Am I understanding this correctly, you think the "purified spouses" mentioned in that verse are only for men? Please clarify.”

See my replies above please.

“No, if we are going to restrict meanings based on the gender assigned, the subject and object then it would mean verses like 24:4 would also notapply to men who are being accused..”

Respectfully, I find this a digression. It is a different matter to garner general wisdom for both genders from a verse that addresses a particular victimised gender and another to claim that a verse addressed to a particular gender as regards their God ordained capacity should apply to both sexes at the expense of both theological and linguistic compromise to the verse. Would you kindly respond to my concern below re-cited:

“...am yet to find out if you accept those people (an-nas) addressed in 3:14 do include 'women' who are also adorned for the lust of other 'women' (an-Nisai).


“Where did I mention equality? Please do not make assumptions about my position.”

Your responses in this regard appear to be riddled with rhetorical questions that seem to allude to equating men’s provisions with those for women. See for example the following:

“And.. what about women? We also have to control ourselves, we also have a test. What would be our "solution" to stay away from adultery?
No, not all men are polygamous and not all women want monogamy.”

You also stated to Br. Duster:

“This is about the double standards and hypocrisy, so comparisions will be made.”

Exacted comparisons are often akin to striking a balance or rather an equal footing (equality). Otherwise, I am sorry if this was not your stance.

“My main points of discussion were women's sexuality and sexual abuse/rape and clothing being used as an excuse.”

I think I did respond to that and we seem to partly agree on this in our views as you may confirm above.

“Not about debating the "polygyny" verse.”

Nor do I dear sister. I simply respond to contentions put across where I feel it warrants.

“If you actually want to discuss the problem of sexual harassment in places like Egypt or outside the Kabah or even the west then let's do it.”

That is not my area of interest dear sister. I tend to incline myself into discussing matters that can be checked by the Qur’an (as a criterion) as to their level of truth, certainty or trustworthiness. As such, for now, I don’t find myself fit discussing such issues.

Regards,
Athman.

REFERENCES:
[1]. Cleansing Power Of The Rain, in Qur'an 8:11? http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=cb9jrjin7u63oblt4soapoglj5&topic=2464.0

[2]. An Inquiry on People of the Book and their 'Book'
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2498.msg13009#msg13009

[3]. Consultation For A Proper Understanding
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2450.msg12791#msg12791

[4]. Interconnection between Makkah, Bacca, Qaabah, and Masjidul Haraam
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2452.msg12801#msg12801

[5].The Place of Summon for Prophet Musa (pbuh)
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2572.msg13341#msg13341
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: AQL April 15, 2019, 07:18:34 PM
Sigh. That wasn't what I asked. I asked your views in summary, bullet pointed. Your first post were questions. Never mind.

See my previous reply.
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: AQL April 15, 2019, 08:17:59 PM
Salam Athman,

And it is in the same verse where God is talking from an orphan oriented context where the mention of ‘only one’ wife is also found for where justice is also feared to be uupheld.

That does not really change what I said.

What is the purpose of presenting such an argument dear sister if not insinuating a needed provision for polyandry to strike a gender balance in such matters for where polygyny is understood to be a general provision? Otherwise, would you kindly clarify please if this is not what you mean.

If you can "concur" with the statement that not all men are polygamous then you can easily do so here as well instead of making assumptions?
I have already responded to you about polyandry and I don't see the need to repeat myself.

Am I to understand this as a mere speculation dear sister?


I suppose if this is speculation too:  Some laws could still have thrived all along if not overlapping aspects.

Not really. Respectfully, as far as I am concerned, I find your interpretation of verse 3:14 to be made devoid of its context.

Dear sister, would you kindly take time to carefully look into the argument and verses cited. With all due respect, I did mention verses 8:28 and 8:67 as regards a warning against worldly pleasures that are normally sought after and an assurance of eternal Bliss of the Hereafter for all people (men and women). However, I posited that verse 3:14 was a specific address to men combatants hinted with the mention of such a worldly adornment of lust for women (an-Nisai). I hope you may now at least agree with me that 3:14 addresses men (given such mention of lust for women) even if you will not agree to what is argued for as a general intense lust adorned for man to a woman.

Even if this can be academically proven, it was not my point though. The point is: despite natural inclinations of a typical yearning towards opposite sex for both men and women, in 3:14, God acknowledges an intense lust for women adorned for men (3:14).

What interpretation?
My question to you is if you think verse 3:15 is talking about "purified spouses" for men only. Considering verse 3:16 and 3:17 as well.

I do know that much wisdom can be extracted from the Prophet Yusuf's story in this regard dear sister. By the way, it is a viable standard. It was actually a two-way struggle (walaqad hammat bihi wahamma biha) - 12:24. However, just because Prophet Yusuf (a.s) restrained his desires whereas his master’s wife yielded doesn’t preclude any possibility that Prophet Yusuf (a.s) could be naturally more or less intensely capacitated with lust for women. Same applies to the mistress. This doesn’t in any way prove that a male or a female is equally, less or more adorned to lust for the opposite sex. It was a case of exercised volition.

While it was the mistress who plotted a seduction (wara wadat-hu), Prophet Yusuf (a.s) remained self-restraint refraining from the same (ma’adha allahi) - 12:23 again strengthened with God’s intervention (ar-ra a burhana rabbihi) - 12:24. The mistress’ mischief can further be evidenced by what she falsely claims in 12:25. After all that what transpired, she still would not heed as can be evidenced in 12:32 (walain lam yaf’al maa aamuruhu).This is not proof in any way that she had a stronger yearning than did Prophet Yusuf (a.s). It only proves her freely spiritually unguided treacherous and evil character. The same would have been accounted if it would have been the other way round for the two characters.

"Mistress"?
Comparing both of their "yearnings" is not the point here.
It shows to me that women generally are also attracted to men's looks and even married women can fall for other men. It also shows that even a single man (let alone a married one) can show self-constraint and control. That's my take from it. There could be even more lessons there.


I don’t think it has ever been mentioned or insinuated in this forum that “Mr Joseph Islam is always right.” Unless you cite a possible insinuation to the same, I don’t think I can comment on that. As regards Br. Joseph’s article on polygyny as referenced above, I do agree with the exposition and thus simply referenced the article to acknowledge the position therein which, too, is my own. I don’t intend to rehash a treatise on that on this forum hence my humble reference. I am neither debating a particular verse dear sister. I just respond to your sentiments of contention. If warranted, we can as such yes possibly agree to disagree.

I also second Truthseeker's advice to you that there wasn't a need to even jot such a statement concerning Br. Joseph as regards what you feel is assumed of him. I, myself do ask for his opinion where I feel to [1], [2], [3], ask for clarification of his position where possible [4] and as well express my disagreement where necessary [5]. I also do reserve my opinions for where I may not fully agree with his where I feel to. Respectfully, this is different from the way you do, e.g, by jotting down such an unnecessary statement about him.

About him? :)
I apologize if I offended you there.
I already said let's agree to disagree on the interpretation.

Respectfully, I find this a digression. It is a different matter to garner general wisdom for both genders from a verse that addresses a particular victimised gender and another to claim that a verse addressed to a particular gender as regards their God ordained capacity should apply to both sexes at the expense of both theological and linguistic compromise to the verse. Would you kindly respond to my concern below re-cited:

“...am yet to find out if you accept those people (an-nas) addressed in 3:14 do include 'women' who are also adorned for the lust of other 'women' (an-Nisai).


I already addressed that. But linguistically speaking, a verse that says males "accusing chaste women" could also not be converted to females "accusing chaste men", correct?
I accept the verse for what it is. I don't see its random link to the "polygyny" verse. I already knew of the verse.
I wanted to know if there are verses that also allude to women's desires.

Your responses in this regard appear to be riddled with rhetorical questions that seem to allude to equating men’s provisions with those for women. See for example the following:

If that's what you took from all this then what can I say?

Exacted comparisons are often akin to striking a balance or rather an equal footing (equality). Otherwise, I am sorry if this was not your stance.

As I already mentioned, I said it is about double standards and hypocrisy.

That is not my area of interest dear sister. I tend to incline myself into discussing matters that can be checked by the Qur’an (as a criterion) as to their level of truth, certainty or trustworthiness. As such, for now, I don’t find myself fit discussing such issues.

It is my area of interest.
I did not make this thread to discuss the "polygyny" verse. Hopefully, that's okay for you. :)
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: AQL April 15, 2019, 08:28:31 PM
There is a documentary called "Pakistan's hidden shame" which highlights the issue of sexual abuse of young boys in Pakistan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niN5g8ZxFQg&t=912s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niN5g8ZxFQg&t=912s)

There is also something called "bacha bazi" in Afghanistan which is also sexual abuse and exploitation of boys.
https://humanrights.brightblue.org.uk/blog-1/2017/8/18/bacha-bazi-afghanistans-darkest-secret (https://humanrights.brightblue.org.uk/blog-1/2017/8/18/bacha-bazi-afghanistans-darkest-secret)

Here is a link just for info:
"Myths vs realities"
https://rapecrisis.org.uk/get-informed/about-sexual-violence/myths-vs-realities/ (https://rapecrisis.org.uk/get-informed/about-sexual-violence/myths-vs-realities/)
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: Athman April 16, 2019, 03:17:23 AM
Dear sister ShatteredEmblem,

Peace be upon you,

It is an observation of mine that you have a potential to tend to contentiously respond to every response made to you regardless of whether you have a refuting, a sound rebuttal or whether there is even a need to contend. To this extent, I don't think there's any argument that can be made against yours on this topic that you may consider accepting even if it may refute yours. This is because you don't directly respond to the contentions made nor make clear your areas of agreement from which one may be at a better position to know where specifically to clarify. You also tend to collate different people's stances and 'put them in one basket' without making a distinction for where there is.

Respectfully, I think I already made clear my perspectives on your original queries where we somehow do agree and thus as you said previously, we may just agree to disagree at some point of disparity. It is not my intention to be unnecessarily contentious nor set into an endless one on one contentious discussion on a topic for which our perspectives have literally been made clear and that we may possibly not agree any further.

For the reasons stated above, may I kindly please end my discussion with you here. Other members may find it fit discussing the other areas you do wish to insha Allah. It was a pleasure discussing such a topic with you.

With all due respect, kindly consider this as my last response to you on this matter in this thread. Thanks.

Regards,
Athman.
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: AQL April 16, 2019, 12:05:19 PM
Sounds like flawed observation then because to me it seems you yourself have been the one responding to almost every sentence of my replies to you, whereas I actually deleted bits of your response that I felt did not need a response or just addressed a few points together.
You don't directly respond to the contentions Same for you? You did not answer a few either but that's alright. The topic has been dragged out too much anyway.
As for your "refutations" on this particular topic, I did not find them convincing as I already mentioned to you. I have found stronger arguments on this topic elsewhere.

Peace.
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: Duster April 16, 2019, 12:11:10 PM
Dear ShatteredEmblem,

See below my replies in blue to your contentions.

“I find that to be a stretch.”

Again, I am sorry if in any way I misrepresented your position. Otherwise, as far as your choice of words and assertive statements are concerned, I didn’t misconstrue what you presented. The standard used in the following statement of yours appears inclusive and suggests an exacted comparison.

“Not all men are polygamous and not all women are monogamous”


You argued:

“But the verse where "polygyny" is mentioned, God talks about orphans.”

And it is in the same verse where God is talking from an orphan oriented context where the mention of ‘only one’ wife is also found for where justice is also feared to be uupheld.

“...meaning not all women want one man at a time or one man for the rest of their lives.”

What is the purpose of presenting such an argument dear sister if not insinuating a needed provision for polyandry to strike a gender balance in such matters for where polygyny is understood to be a general provision? Otherwise, would you kindly clarify please if this is not what you mean.

“Just how not all men are polygamous or want multiple women. Would you agree with that?”

Sure, I do concur.

“Perhaps "polygyny" was not allowed in some other time.”

Am I to understand this as a mere speculation dear sister?

“Where did you pull that assumption out of? I also recommend that you keep this respectful.”

I do understand and expect that when you are responding to my comments, you assume a position where you are dealing with my contentions and not others.’ Otherwise, it is important to note if it’s a general statement you are making. This is because, in your response, you collectively took my presentation of verses 4:3 and 3:14 for the contention made 'coupling' it with other people’s views to make your contention. See the following citation:

"I don't feel it's fair to just look at the verse about polygamy or even verse 3:14 (isn't the word used there humans/people/mankind?) coupled with society's hypersexual view of men to justify their behaviour, generalize men and women, and victim blame women."


You asked:

“It seems that you are trying to imply that I am dimissing a Qur'ans verse?”

Not really. Respectfully, as far as I am concerned, I find your interpretation of verse 3:14 to be made devoid of its context.

“Do you remember this verse 49:12?”

I do know the verse dear sister. However, as far as I am concerned, sincerely speaking, I am not indulged into any kind of suspicion (ad-dhwanna) whatsoever. Rather, once again I do mention that your choice of words and interpolation of my position coupling it with those of others appear to be unnecessarily contentious.

“If God mentions only men, does it mean God does not understand women's struggles and wants? Does it automatically mean women generally do not want wealth, children, gold and silver or men?”

Dear sister, would you kindly take time to carefully look into the argument and verses cited. With all due respect, I did mention verses 8:28 and 8:67 as regards a warning against worldly pleasures that are normally sought after and an assurance of eternal Bliss of the Hereafter for all people (men and women). However, I posited that verse 3:14 was a specific address to men combatants hinted with the mention of such a worldly adornment of lust for women (an-Nisai). I hope you may now at least agree with me that 3:14 addresses men (given such mention of lust for women) even if you will not agree to what is argued for as a general intense lust adorned for man to a woman.

“Unfortunately, there are women who have also played a part in burying daughters and being in favour of sons. It's not a strictly male phenomenon.”

Even if this can be academically proven, it was not my point though. The point is: despite natural inclinations of a typical yearning towards opposite sex for both men and women, in 3:14, God acknowledges an intense lust for women adorned for men (3:14).

“I would recommend you also try to understand the wisdom behind the story of Prophet Yusuf pbuh and "Zulaykha".”

I do know that much wisdom can be extracted from the Prophet Yusuf's story in this regard dear sister. By the way, it is a viable standard. It was actually a two-way struggle (walaqad hammat bihi wahamma biha) - 12:24. However, just because Prophet Yusuf (a.s) restrained his desires whereas his master’s wife yielded doesn’t preclude any possibility that Prophet Yusuf (a.s) could be naturally more or less intensely capacitated with lust for women. Same applies to the mistress. This doesn’t in any way prove that a male or a female is equally, less or more adorned to lust for the opposite sex. It was a case of exercised volition.

While it was the mistress who plotted a seduction (wara wadat-hu), Prophet Yusuf (a.s) remained self-restraint refraining from the same (ma’adha allahi) - 12:23 again strengthened with God’s intervention (ar-ra a burhana rabbihi) - 12:24. The mistress’ mischief can further be evidenced by what she falsely claims in 12:25. After all that what transpired, she still would not heed as can be evidenced in 12:32 (walain lam yaf’al maa aamuruhu).This is not proof in any way that she had a stronger yearning than did Prophet Yusuf (a.s). It only proves her freely spiritually unguided treacherous and evil character. The same would have been accounted if it would have been the other way round for the two characters.

“For now, I believe in the interpretation which takes orphans/proper benefits into account. I really don't understand the sort of "Mr Joseph Islam is always right" type of mentality that some seem to have on this forum. Please respect my understanding. I do not find your argument convincing nor did I come here to debate that verse.
Let's agree to disagree.”

I don’t think it has ever been mentioned or insinuated in this forum that “Mr Joseph Islam is always right.” Unless you cite a possible insinuation to the same, I don’t think I can comment on that. As regards Br. Joseph’s article on polygyny as referenced above, I do agree with the exposition and thus simply referenced the article to acknowledge the position therein which, too, is my own. I don’t intend to rehash a treatise on that on this forum hence my humble reference. I am neither debating a particular verse dear sister. I just respond to your sentiments of contention. If warranted, we can as such yes possibly agree to disagree.

I also second Truthseeker's advice to you that there wasn't a need to even jot such a statement concerning Br. Joseph as regards what you feel is assumed of him. I, myself do ask for his opinion where I feel to [1], [2], [3], ask for clarification of his position where possible [4] and as well express my disagreement where necessary [5]. I also do reserve my opinions for where I may not fully agree with his where I feel to. Respectfully, this is different from the way you do, e.g, by jotting down such an unnecessary statement about him.

"Possibly"?

Once again I do reiterate, the context in this case is key to identify the addressees. I also provided verses 8:28 and 8:67 to acknowledge God’s recognition of all people’s desires in general for worldly treasures.

“Am I understanding this correctly, you think the "purified spouses" mentioned in that verse are only for men? Please clarify.”

See my replies above please.

“No, if we are going to restrict meanings based on the gender assigned, the subject and object then it would mean verses like 24:4 would also notapply to men who are being accused..”

Respectfully, I find this a digression. It is a different matter to garner general wisdom for both genders from a verse that addresses a particular victimised gender and another to claim that a verse addressed to a particular gender as regards their God ordained capacity should apply to both sexes at the expense of both theological and linguistic compromise to the verse. Would you kindly respond to my concern below re-cited:

“...am yet to find out if you accept those people (an-nas) addressed in 3:14 do include 'women' who are also adorned for the lust of other 'women' (an-Nisai).


“Where did I mention equality? Please do not make assumptions about my position.”

Your responses in this regard appear to be riddled with rhetorical questions that seem to allude to equating men’s provisions with those for women. See for example the following:

“And.. what about women? We also have to control ourselves, we also have a test. What would be our "solution" to stay away from adultery?
No, not all men are polygamous and not all women want monogamy.”

You also stated to Br. Duster:

“This is about the double standards and hypocrisy, so comparisions will be made.”

Exacted comparisons are often akin to striking a balance or rather an equal footing (equality). Otherwise, I am sorry if this was not your stance.

“My main points of discussion were women's sexuality and sexual abuse/rape and clothing being used as an excuse.”

I think I did respond to that and we seem to partly agree on this in our views as you may confirm above.

“Not about debating the "polygyny" verse.”

Nor do I dear sister. I simply respond to contentions put across where I feel it warrants.

“If you actually want to discuss the problem of sexual harassment in places like Egypt or outside the Kabah or even the west then let's do it.”

That is not my area of interest dear sister. I tend to incline myself into discussing matters that can be checked by the Qur’an (as a criterion) as to their level of truth, certainty or trustworthiness. As such, for now, I don’t find myself fit discussing such issues.

Regards,
Athman.

REFERENCES:
[1]. Cleansing Power Of The Rain, in Qur'an 8:11? http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=cb9jrjin7u63oblt4soapoglj5&topic=2464.0

[2]. An Inquiry on People of the Book and their 'Book'
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2498.msg13009#msg13009

[3]. Consultation For A Proper Understanding
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2450.msg12791#msg12791

[4]. Interconnection between Makkah, Bacca, Qaabah, and Masjidul Haraam
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2452.msg12801#msg12801

[5].The Place of Summon for Prophet Musa (pbuh)
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2572.msg13341#msg13341


Shalom / peace br. Athman.... Thanks for sharing your views in the way you have..... found them quite convincing and detailed.....》》
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: Truth Seeker April 16, 2019, 01:08:17 PM
Salaam Athman,

I think that you have tried your best to explain your points in a lot of detail with references given and also have been measured and unemotional in your delivery.
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: Athman April 16, 2019, 01:50:22 PM
Dear brother Duster,

Shalom,

I am humbled. I also do share the underlying premise in your responses on this topic.

Dear Truth Seeker,

Wa alaikumus salaam,

Thanks for the acknowledgement. I found your responses to sister ShatteredEmblem well thought out and argued for too. I also do appreciate your input in the capacity of a Moderator. It is actually commendable the way you guys carry out your responsibility in this regard. Pleasure to have you guys on the ‘overwatch.’ By the way, is there any other of you guys on the forum?

Wasalam,
Athman.
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: Truth Seeker April 16, 2019, 03:44:21 PM
Dear Athman,

Thank you for your comments. There are other moderators on this forum, who also post like I do and those who prefer just to moderate and they are known as 'QM Moderators Team'.
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: Athman April 17, 2019, 08:27:54 AM
Dear Truth Seeker,

Thanks for the information.

Regards,
Athman.
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: Truth Seeker May 09, 2019, 06:09:05 PM
I would just like to add some thoughts on this. Nothing can ever be a fool proof deterrent against an individual who wishes to harm, you can only do your best. As an example, when protecting your home, you could leave the doors unlocked and expect that no one should come in because they have absolutely no right to enter.

Yet I don't think that anyone would be that naive as to leave their home unsecured. You would take the best precautions to lock the door/windows but if a burglar is determined to enter, he will; some only if they saw an open window, others even if they see deterrents such as an alarm or CCTV. It does not mean therefore that securing your property is not working because you still got burgled. It may in fact have thwarted the 'opportunistic' burglar.

An example regarding when women go for a night out, here the police advice them to make sure they leave nightclubs etc together or inform someone of where they are going and to walk in well lit areas. They also advise that they use licensed taxis  because there have been cases where 'drivers' have raped women upon picking them up.

The above does not mean that it is the woman's fault is she is attacked but clearly there is a case to be made to take 'sensible precautions'. Yet I see certain feminists crying out against this advice, saying that men should control themselves. So let them take the no precautions and gamble their safety.
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: AQL July 15, 2019, 09:58:20 PM
Here is another article about women being sexually harassed despite wearing headscarves:

https://www.likely.com.my/hijabi-girls-speak-out-about-sexual-harassment/ (https://www.likely.com.my/hijabi-girls-speak-out-about-sexual-harassment/)

Victim blaming is often a tactic used by misogynists and women suffering from internalized misogyny. They will try to blame anything and anyone but the rapist himself.
The "locking door to protect from robbery" is an example often used by such men (or people) as well.
The only one to blame for rape is the rapist. There is a difference between advising someone to take precautions and victim-blaming. That's when the "Why were you there?" "Why were you wearing those clothes?" questions come up after the woman was raped. I wonder where these questions are when men, children or elderly ladies are raped?
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: Truth Seeker July 23, 2019, 11:52:43 PM
Salaam AQL,

I have said here before that the rapist is to blame. Statistically stranger rape is rare in the UK (around 10% as far as I have read). So that means 90% is committed by those known to the victim so I think then that the 'clothing angle' doesn't really apply in the vast majority of cases so lets put this aside for now.


Regarding the very few countries where women are harassed by strangers whilst wearing headscarves, is truly disgraceful. There is something strange in the psyche of those men and there need to be a multimedia campaign including billboards etc to educate the menfolk. Maybe a push from their 'popular clergy' may help?

I still stand that a woman should take specific precautions when out and about as they are the weaker gender.

This is not victim blaming in my view but just common sense to protect yourself from a potential incident.
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: AQL July 24, 2019, 11:11:59 AM
Salaam,

Only the women who live in those "very few" many Muslim countries can speak about their personal experiences and how common it is. As well as women who live in villages and dress in village clothes, where they don't know much about their rights. It happens to women from all faiths, backgrounds and cultures, regardless of clothing. Like the case of domestic violence which is quite widespread (e.g. in Pakistan) but some people like to make it look like a trivial issue.
If already this amount of women have come forward, imagine the amount of unreported or unspoken cases.
Pakistani actress Armeena Khan also spoke about how she was groped when wearing burqa in market in Pakistan. It happens more than you think or want to believe. Also to women wearing shalwar kameez and I've personally known two girls who experienced similar in Pakistan. You can google what a shalwar kameez looks like.

I already posted a link (also UK although I don't live there) before which says how a person is more likely to be raped by someone they know, which makes the issue of clothing even more insignificant. There are even people who rape corpses, let's be real!
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/breaking-man-who-sex-corpse-13932352 (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/breaking-man-who-sex-corpse-13932352)
https://metro.co.uk/2019/04/03/man-raped-corpses-women-killed-reveals-details-attacks-9106081/ (https://metro.co.uk/2019/04/03/man-raped-corpses-women-killed-reveals-details-attacks-9106081/)

But catcalling and street assault is another thing.

Yep, there is a difference between taking precautions and victim-blaming, which shouldn't be so hard to understand.

If a man wants to rape, he will rape:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3125219/Sex-attacker-targeted-Muslim-women-fetish-women-wearing-hijabs.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3125219/Sex-attacker-targeted-Muslim-women-fetish-women-wearing-hijabs.html)
https://gulfnews.com/world/asia/pakistan/pakistani-doctor-and-medical-staff-accused-of-raping-and-killing-a-woman-1.1556022738765 (https://gulfnews.com/world/asia/pakistan/pakistani-doctor-and-medical-staff-accused-of-raping-and-killing-a-woman-1.1556022738765)
https://www.thejournal.ie/nurse-charged-with-rape-of-woman-in-coma-4455974-Jan2019/ (https://www.thejournal.ie/nurse-charged-with-rape-of-woman-in-coma-4455974-Jan2019/)
https://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/witness/2018/11/thousand-girls-afghan-woman-fight-rape-181121194856288.html (https://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/witness/2018/11/thousand-girls-afghan-woman-fight-rape-181121194856288.html)
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47738365 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47738365)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/man-who-killed-nabra-hassanen-set-to-appear-in-court-thursday-for-sentencing/2019/03/27/29575ff4-4fd7-11e9-8d28-f5149e5a2fda_story.html?utm_term=.b4198dd04363 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/man-who-killed-nabra-hassanen-set-to-appear-in-court-thursday-for-sentencing/2019/03/27/29575ff4-4fd7-11e9-8d28-f5149e5a2fda_story.html?utm_term=.b4198dd04363)

These poor women's cases are of just as much importance. And their rapists/attackers are not out of the ordinary rapists. They're just nasty rapists like the rest of them.

And some places are definitely safer than others. Women in the UK are arguably safer than women in Afghanistan (where women are covered head to toe) for example.

Muslim countries definitely need a stronger focus on keeping women (and children) safe and enforcing stricter punishments for rape, sexual assault etc. Instead of trying to push the blame on women. They have a long way to go.

Only recently, a 10 year old boy was raped and murdered in Pakistan:
https://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2019/07/15/10-year-old-boy-allegedly-raped-murdered-in-lahore/ (https://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2019/07/15/10-year-old-boy-allegedly-raped-murdered-in-lahore/)
: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: Truth Seeker July 25, 2019, 12:20:33 AM
Salaam AQL

I think that the issue you raise about catcalling and street assault is very important. It hinders a women's right to move about freely without being constantly harassed.

I feel deeply for those women who live in such societies and I know about the widespread leering and groping going on in Pakistan. That has not changed for decades so I wonder what it will take for a paradigm shift to take place.

The work needs to be done at ground level..I think it should be integrated into the school curriculum, because these countries have Islamic studies as a compulsory subject.

This way the next generation can be more respectful and mindful towards women.

: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: TausifAhmed474 September 10, 2019, 04:23:10 PM
I disagree with Br Joseph.
Just because God did not mention dowry in Quran [33:49] does not mean that dowry is not a perquisite of marriage.

You who have iman! when you marry believing women and then divorce them before you have touched them, there is no ´idda for you to calculate for them, so give them a gift and let them go with kindness. [33:49]   

In the next verse [33:50] dowry is again mentioned, but as can be seen that ONLY the Prophet(pbuh) has been exempted from giving dowry if the woman he is about to marry says not to give her the dowry.

O Prophet! We have made halal for you: your wives to whom you have given dowries and any slavegirls you own from the booty Allah has allotted you and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who have made hijra with you and any mumin woman who gives herself to the Prophet if the Prophet desires to marry her: exclusively for you as opposed to the rest of the muminunWe know very well what We have prescribed for them regarding their wives and any slavegirls they possess — in order that there be no restriction on you. Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful.   

We know very well what We have prescribed for them regarding their wives and any slavegirls they possess — in order that there be no restriction on you
What does this mean?This is an indication towards "Dowry" and as can be seen, in the last part of verse the Prophet has been told that he is not obliged to give the dowry, but this is exclusively for him.Rest of the Muslims are obliged to give the dowries for marriage.

Importance of Dowry in Marriage in Islam:

Give women their dowry as an outright gift. But if they are happy to give you some of it, make use of it with pleasure and goodwill.   [4:4]

Mutual Attraction And Dowry Required

And also married women, except for those you have taken in war as slaves. This is what Allah has prescribed for you. Apart from that He has made all other women halal for you provided you seek them with your wealth in marriage and not in fornication. When you consummate your marriage with them give them their prescribed dowry. There is nothing wrong in any further agreement you might come to after the dowry has been given. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.   [4:24]

If any of you do not have the means to marry free women who are muminun, you may marry slavegirls who are muminun. Allah knows best about your iman; you are all the same in that respect. Marry them with their owners´ permission and give them their dowries correctly and courteously as married women, not in fornication or taking them as lovers. When they are married, if they commit fornication they should receive half the punishment of free women. This is for those of you who are afraid of committing fornication. But being patient is better for you. Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful.   [4:25]

Allah desires to make things clear to you and to guide you to the correct practices of those before you and to turn towards you. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.   [4:26]

Today all good things have been made halal for you. And the food of those given the Book is also halal for you and your food is halal for them. So are free women from among the muminun and free women of those given the Book before you, once you have given them their dowries in marriage, not in fornication or taking them as lovers. But as for anyone who rejects iman, his actions will come to nothing and in the Next World he will be among the losers.   [5:5]

O Prophet! We have made halal for you: your wives to whom you have given dowries and any slavegirls you own from the booty Allah has allotted you and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who have made hijra with you and any mumin woman who gives herself to the Prophet if the Prophet desires to marry her: exclusively for you as opposed to the rest of the muminun — We know very well what We have prescribed for them regarding their wives and any slavegirls they possess — in order that there be no restriction on you. Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful.   [33:50]

You who have iman! when women who have iman come to you as muhajirun, submit them to a test. Allah has best knowledge of their iman. If you know they are muminun, do not return them to the kuffar. They are not halal for the kuffar nor are the kuffar halal for them. Give the kuffar whatever dowry they paid. And there is nothing wrong in your marrying them provided you pay them their due. Do not hold to any marriage ties with women who are kafir. Ask for what you paid and let them ask for what they paid. That is Allah´s judgement. Allah will judge between them. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.   [60:10]

From the above we learn that:

-dowry is a pre-requisite for a marriage,
-is to be paid by husband to his wife,
-should be equitable,
-the husband and wife can mutually make any adjustment to the dowry,
-a woman's forfeiting of the dowry for the prophet does not automatically apply to other believers.

Although one cannot find in the Quran any direct support for payment of dowry in cash only, dowry cannot be something that does not have a monetary value. It cannot be love, honesty, being faithful, etc., which are anyway traits of righteous people. If it could be something that does not have monetary value, following and many other verses (including making adjustments to the dowry) would be rendered inapplicable:

If you divorce them before you have touched them but have already allotted them a dowry, they should have half the amount which you allotted, unless they forgo it or the one in charge of the marriage contract forgoes it. To forgo it is closer to taqwa. Do not forget to show generosity to one another. Allah sees what you do.   [2:237]

And there is nothing wrong in your marrying them provided you pay them their due. Do not hold to any marriage ties with women who are kafir. Ask for what you paid and let them ask for what they paid. That is Allah´s judgement. Allah will judge between them. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.   [60:10]

What is an equitable dowry is what one has to assess for oneself. It depends on case to case. The rich as he can afford and the poor as he can. This should not be abused for God will hold us responsible for our innermost intention. When we are committing our deeds with an intention to please Him, He will guide us to do the right thing.

Dowry is a pre-requisite for marriage throughout the Quran. Even when verse 4:4 says :Give women their dowry as an outright gift. But if they are happy to give you some of it, make use of it with pleasure and goodwill. A woman may choose to willingly forfeit anything; the believing man must offer dowry with sincere intentions.

Let us see some other relevant verses in this regard.
[2:229]
Divorce may be retracted twice. The divorced woman shall be allowed to live in the same home amicably, or leave it amicably. It is not lawful for the husband to take back anything he had given her. However, the couple may fear that they may transgress GOD's law. If there is fear that they may transgress GOD's law, they commit no error if the wife willingly gives back whatever she chooses. These are GOD's laws; do not transgress them. Those who transgress GOD's laws are the unjust.

Protection for Women

[4:20-21]
If you wish to marry another wife, in place of your present wife, and you had given any of them a great deal, you shall not take back anything you had given her. Would you take it fraudulently, maliciously, and sinfully? How could you take it back, after you have been intimate with each other, and they had taken from you a solemn pledge?

The above verses makes it abundantly clear that it is not righteous to take back the dowry unless one is completely overcome by certain circumstances.

An example of dowry from the Quran could be that of Moses.

[28:27-28]
He said, "I wish to offer one of my two daughters for you to marry, in return for working for me for eight pilgrimages; if you make them ten, it will be voluntary on your part. I do not wish to make this matter too difficult for you. You will find me, GOD willing, righteous." He said, "It is an agreement between me and you. Whichever period I fulfill, you will not be averse to either one. GOD is the guarantor of what we said."

: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: MaHa September 11, 2019, 06:20:30 AM
Salam Brother Tausif,

I am also a newbie here and haven't read all of Joseph's articles. But I believe, you have misunderstood his views about it. I have found 2 forum thread about this topic. please read from there for more clarification. In one of it, he said, "In my humble view from a Quranic perspective, a bridal due (ujur) would be a pre-requisite to establish the contract of marriage (4:24; 60:10)."

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1023.0

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2431.0

: Re: Women's clothes and rape?
: Hamzeh September 11, 2019, 06:38:27 AM
Asalamu 3alykum MaHa

Yes I agree with you as well that TausifAhmed has misunderstood brother Joseph's perspective on that.

Salam