QM Forum
The Quran => General Discussions => Topic started by: Mohammed on May 20, 2019, 07:22:28 PM
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peace brother Joseph,
You say
"Marriage between Muslim men and women from the Book is clearly sanctioned by the Quran with clear provisos."
http://quransmessage.com/articles/marriage%20with%20people%20of%20the%20book%20FM3.htm (http://quransmessage.com/articles/marriage%20with%20people%20of%20the%20book%20FM3.htm)
but I think this is only applicable for that time i.e. for marriages that are fixed(given the bridal due) before the revelation of Qur'an.
here's the translation of 5:5 as I understand the verse,
"This day (all) the good things are made lawful for you; and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them; and the chaste women from among the believers and the chaste women from among those who have been given the Book before you; when you have given them their bridal due, marrying not fornicating nor taking them for secret concubines; and whoever denies faith, his work indeed is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers"
And the Qur'an says,
"O you who believe, do not take the Jews and the Nazarenes/Christians as allies, for they are allies to one another; and whoever takes them as such from among you is one of them. God does not guide the wicked people." [5:51]
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5:82
You will find the people with the greatest animosity towards those who believe are the Jews and those who are polytheists; and you will find the closest in affection to those who believe are those who said: “We are Nazarenes/Christians;” that is because among them are Priests and Monks, and they are not arrogant.
5:83
And if they hear what was sent down to the messenger you see their eyes flooding with tears, for what they have known as the truth, they say: “Our Lord, we believe, so record us with the witnesses.”
So as they believed in the Qur'an, they will have Swalat, Fasting, Hajj etc. right? i.e. they are no more Nazarenes/Christians.
5:84
“And why should we not believe in God and what has come to us of the truth? And we yearn that our Lord admits us with the righteous people.”
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Thus, 24:32, 4:25, 2:221 etc. suggests marry only believers.
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3:19
That truly the dheen at God, (is) the islam/submission/surrender, and those who were given The Book did not differ/disagree/dispute, except from after what (that) the knowledge came to them, out of jealousy/oppression between them, and who disbelieves with God's signs/verses, so that God (is) swift in reckoning.
48:28
He is who sent His messenger with the guidance and the truths' dheen to make it apparent/visible/overcome on/over the dheen all of it, and enough/sufficient with God (as) a witness.
3:85
And whoever seeks other than the islam/submission/surrender (as) a dheen, so (it) will not be accepted from him, and he (is) in the end from the losers.
peace
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peace brother Joseph,
You say
"Marriage between Muslim men and women from the Book is clearly sanctioned by the Quran with clear provisos."
http://quransmessage.com/articles/marriage%20with%20people%20of%20the%20book%20FM3.htm (http://quransmessage.com/articles/marriage%20with%20people%20of%20the%20book%20FM3.htm)
but I think this is only applicable for that time i.e. for marriages that are fixed(given the bridal due) before the revelation of Qur'an.
here's the translation of 5:5 as I understand the verse,
"This day (all) the good things are made lawful for you; and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them; and the chaste women from among the believers and the chaste women from among those who have been given the Book before you; when you have given them their bridal due, marrying not fornicating nor taking them for secret concubines; and whoever denies faith, his work indeed is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers"
And the Qur'an says,
"O you who believe, do not take the Jews and the Nazarenes/Christians as allies, for they are allies to one another; and whoever takes them as such from among you is one of them. God does not guide the wicked people." [5:51]
Shalom / peace ...
It doesn't say before the Quran's revelation..... you have interpolated this.
Secondly .... the Quran says not to take awliya ONLY with those that are trouble makers and ridicule the religion..... you have taken one verse and missed out the clarifying verse 5:57.
As mentioned by brother Joseph in the link below .....
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=260
005:057
"O ye who believe! take not for friends / allies / protectors (awliyaa) those who take your religion for a mockery or sport / ridicule or fun (huzuwan wala'iban), whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject faith; but fear ye God, if ye have faith (indeed)"
The same word 'awliyaa' has been used but the context has been clearly elucidated against those who are deemed 'trouble-makers'.
Those who have never shown any difficulty or animosity whether from the People of the Book or Disbelievers, one is only expected to show them kindness and deal with them justly.
060:008
"God does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely God loves the doers of justice"
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Are you saying that believers can marry today's Jews and Christians even if they are not believing in the Qur'an?
Why 'people of the book' not mentioned in other marriage verses like 24:32, 4:25, 2:221 etc.?
What do you think about this?
5:82
You will find the people with the greatest animosity towards those who believe are the Jews and those who are polytheists; and you will find the closest in affection to those who believe are those who said: “We are Nazarenes/Christians;” that is because among them are Priests and Monks, and they are not arrogant.
5:83
And if they hear what was sent down to the messenger you see their eyes flooding with tears, for what they have known as the truth, they say: “Our Lord, we believe, so record us with the witnesses.”
So as they believed in the Qur'an, they will have Swalat, Fasting in Ramadan, Hajj etc. right? i.e. they are no more Nazarenes/Christians.
5:84
“And why should we not believe in God and what has come to us of the truth? And we yearn that our Lord admits us with the righteous people.”
And your last part(quote) is off here. Am talking about marriage
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If very strict conditions are met and the Christians are not Trinitarian ...but something like Unitarians and do not ridicule Islam .... then why not? Why is this such a surprise to you when the Quran doesn't forbid it?
Did you read the arguments in the article below???
http://quransmessage.com/articles/marriage%20with%20people%20of%20the%20book%20FM3.htm
Why do you expect Allah to mention certain things in certain verses of your choosing when he has taken care of the matter in other verses that you refuse to accept?....
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...but something like Unitarians ...
What does this means?? What is your definition of a believer?
Btw you didn't answer my questions. Each to their own.
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Asalamu 3alykum
I concur with brother Duster and would like to clarify a little more as I think we need to go back a step as in the main most Muslims or a lot of them think that there is no believers or submitters from amongst the Jews and the Christian. This is usually makes the message a little hard to understand when one is under that impression.
As you will notice throughout the Quran, the Jews and the Christian at the time of the prophet are mentioned in different situations and the Quran often exposes their conditions whether it was the believers or the disbelievers who claimed or inherited Christianity or Judaism at that time.
What I mean as believers are those who followed Islam. As Islam was always a system of God which He ordained on all the prophets and messengers. Don't focus on the Arabic term but focus on the equivalent meaning that the prophets would of understood Islam as and it's principles. So there would of been believers who God would of been pleased with and would of regarded them as those who followed a right course shortly before the Qurans appearance. If they were Arabic speaking Jews or Christians they would of considered the system as "Islam". If they were Hebrew they would of had a equivalent term in that language.
42:13 "The same religion / system (Arabic: Deen) has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah and that which We have sent by inspiration to thee and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions in it: to those who worship other things than God, hard is the (way) to which you call them. God chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him)"
It's clear also that God has used their actions and characteristics as an example to guide humanity through out the Quran so that the next generations would take heed from their good and wrong doings.
4:26 Allah would explain to you and guide you by the examples of those who were before you, and would turn to you in mercy. Allah is Knower, Wise.
That being said imagine today amongst those who claim to be Muslims.
Are they all alike?
I'm sure you would agree that they are "not" but they all call them selves Muslims.
3:113-114 "Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand: They rehearse the verses of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten in good deeds: They are in the ranks of the righteous"
I also would encourage you read this article by brother Joseph first as to see what the Quran has to say about them which would later on clarify which Jews and Christians God is speaking about regarding marriage as context is key.
Insha'Allah this helps.
Peace
People of the Book
http://www.quransmessage.com/articles/people of the book FM3.htm
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Wa'laikum salaam/peace,
3:113-114 "Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand: They rehearse the verses of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten in good deeds: They are in the ranks of the righteous"
see the verses 5:83-84 which I quoted, can't you see a connection?
3:19
That truly the dheen at God, (is) the islam/submission/surrender, and those who were given The Book did not differ/disagree/dispute, except from after what (that) the knowledge came to them, out of jealousy/oppression between them, and who disbelieves with God's signs/verses, so that God (is) swift in reckoning.
48:28
He is who sent His messenger with the guidance and the truths' dheen to make it apparent/visible/overcome on/over the dheen all of it, and enough/sufficient with God (as) a witness.
3:85
And whoever seeks other than the islam/submission/surrender (as) a dheen, so (it) will not be accepted from him, and he (is) in the end from the losers.
After reading this, what's your understanding of a disbeliever? If one (e.g. one from people of the book) not believing in the Qur'an, what will you call him?
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Shalom / peace Mohammed...
I mean no disrespect to you but i would really suggest. ....that if you are going to debate or share material on this forum.......that you have some familiarity with the articles and content on this site as the points you raise have already been addressed many many times in different ways ......And you simply can't say 'Each to their own' and simply sign off and not expect to be challenged...otherwise what is the point of being here???
If the message has not reached someone properly....they can't just be called a disbeliever ...they have to be convinced first with clear arguments and then reject the message to be called a disbeliever. Only Allah can judge when that happens......,2 articles that i recommend reading. ..
Kufr from a Quran's view - http://quransmessage.com/articles/understanding%20kufr%20FM3.htm
Itmam ul hujja - http://quransmessage.com/articles/itmam%20FM3.htm
With regards 48:28 ... this is a reference to 'false religions''.....People of the book that follow their religion properly are not following a false religion ....you really need to study this carefully ,...the verses are clear ....
Here is a great post by brother Joseph on this ....
Same deen different shariah -
https://m.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/1421791604624629
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peace Duster,
If the message has not reached someone properly....
We are talking about 'the people of the book'
and what the Qur'an says about them?
3:19
That truly the dheen at God, (is) the islam/submission/surrender, and those who were given The Book did not differ/disagree/dispute, except from after what (that) the knowledge came to them, out of jealousy/oppression between them, and who disbelieves with God's signs/verses, so that God (is) swift in reckoning.
5:77
Say: "You The Book's people, do not exaggerate/exceed the limit in your dheen, other than the truth, and do not follow a nation's self attractions for desires, they had misguided from before and they misguided many, and they misguided from the way's/path's middle/straightness."
[Important : This is a saying of the prophet to the people in the 7th century]
RED What are the other dheens?
No doubt, Just human desires !
BLUE About which dheen the prophet is talking? It’s clear from the verses 3:19, 42:13 etc.
and from 48:28 it's clear that the prophet came with truth's dheen and the Guidance (the Qur'an)
48:28
He is who sent His messenger with the guidance and the truths' dheen to make it apparent/visible/overcome on/over the dheen all of it, and enough/sufficient with God (as) a witness.
5:83-84
...“Our Lord, we believe, so record us with the witnesses.” “And why should we not believe in God and what has come to us of the truth?
Who said this? Were they not ‘the people of the book’?
Now think, is the term 'people of the book' applicable to today's Jews/Christians?(who do not follow the Qur'an)
[and do you think that all people today who say 'we follow the Qur'an' are in true dheen?]
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Shalom /peace Mohammed
Did you even read the links I shared???? If not, we are wasting our time ....
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Shalom /peace Mohammed
Did you even read the links I shared???? If not, we are wasting our time ....
peace Duster,
God gave you 'reason'. So before following others and their works verify for yourself, for your safety.
Take it as a humble advice to you and some other members of this forum.
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Peace Mohammed
Im sure the ones who have been sharing the articles with other brothers and sisters have gone through the articles with great research and have also taken other opinions in consideration before they share.
Also please understand and go review your work how many times you have been giving advice and conclusions on certain topics and then have come back and said you are wrong this is the correct meaning. You could of made false conclusions which some might of taken from you and left them in that thought while you had realized you were wrong but did not have the chance to correct them. This is a serious matter and you should not be tempering with the meaning of the verses without cross examining them before you have made up your mind with supporting verses. This is not how one teaches people. God did indeed give people reason and intellect Alhamdulila. But some times its better to read from those who have the ability to illustrate and share the message of the Quran Masha'Allah and compare them with others and choose the best meaning based on the verses of the Quran and the approach one takes through intellect, honesty, and academics.
39:018 "Those who listen to the Word (the Quran) and follow the best meaning in it / best of it (Arabic: fayattabi'una ahsanahu) those are the ones whom God has guided and those are the one's endowed with understanding (Arabic: Albabi)
The brother who started this site has his articles in detail and has correlated much of the topics together to illustrate the consistency of the Quran and its message Masha'Allah. He also follows up with questions being asked exhaustively for almost every topic from his critics. We have read the arguments and questioned them and also hear of other peoples opinions and we try to simply help by sharing what has been made evident to us and to try our best to see where the confusion is and try to resolve it Insha'Allah.
I personally do not think one should try to be giving conclusions if one has not taken the effort to study the Quran in a whole and has studied it thoroughly. This would be evident by the persons speeches, writings, arguments etc.
I think this site should most times be used more appropriately for challenging the arguments made in the articles rather than throwing out messages that are hard to support and confuses people. That leaves us with the problem of "where does one begin to argue from?"
As a result as brother Duster has kindly suggested that you read the articles to get an understanding of who are the people of the book?, who is a kaffir?, an article that illustrates that the "dean" is the same but the "sharias" are different, etc
I agree with brother Duster as it could get very hard to respond to questions that are not correlated with the message of the Quran, so often we understand that a brother or sister is struggling with a topic because of a small issue so we refer them to a article that could resolve that thought and straighten out the full message and make it overall consistent. This is not wrong and is not to be deemed as following others without verification. Sometimes there is no need to re-define truth when first it cannot be put any better or when it cannot be proven false.
Regarding the topic now I would also like to make a couple more comments that might resolve our thoughts incase they were a little unclear,
Yes we do believe that the people of the book should also believe in the Quran.
But those that have held fast to their own scripture and follow it correctly and have faith in it which there is arguably many, are still muslims. How could they be not? They are believing in God's words. Those same believers would arguably also believe in my humble opinion in the Quran. How could they not? They have believed in their scripture based on the arguments so why not the Quran, it is a confirmation of what is with them. They might not call them selves "muslims" but they would be deemed equivalent in God's view.
These are explicit in these verses,
2.62 "Indeed, those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians and the Sabians, any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."
5.69 "Indeed, those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Sabians and the Christians, any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."
There is also disbelievers from the Jews and Christians who do not even believe in their Scriptures. They say they do, but they don't.
5:41 O Messenger, let them not grieve you who hasten into disbelief of those who say, "We believe" with their mouths, but their hearts believe not, and from among the Jews. [They are] avid listeners to falsehood, listening to another people who have not come to you. They distort words beyond their [proper] usages, saying "If you are given this, take it; but if you are not given it, then beware." But he for whom Allah intends fitnah - never will you possess [power to do] for him a thing against Allah . Those are the ones for whom Allah does not intend to purify their hearts. For them in this world is disgrace, and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment.
5:42 [They are] avid listeners to falsehood, devourers of [what is] unlawful. So if they come to you, [O Muhammad], judge between them or turn away from them. And if you turn away from them - never will they harm you at all. And if you judge, judge between them with justice. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.
5:43 But how is it that they come to you for judgement while they have the Torah, in which is the judgement of Allah ? Then they turn away, [even] after that; but those are not [in fact] believers.
If Jews or Christians who deny the truth after the knowledge comes to them then they would be disbelievers. There is also warnings to them in the Quran as you have kindly shared as well through some of the verses. We do not deny this. They are expected to believe in the final Scripture. However please note that believing in the final Scripture and abiding by its laws are two different things. Even todays Muslims, if a misconception or ideology or doctrine has been made clear to them and the truth has come to them with knowledge and do not accept it, one maybe arguably stepping on the side of kuffur.
Now regarding marriage with the people of the book, the context of verse 5:5 is clear. These are people of the book that are following the true deen. This is also verified by how we are able to eat from their food and they may eat from our food(two different categories are considered), other wise if God had commanded them to give up their names and laws, their food would arguably not be lawful for us and would have command them to only eat from the food that has been made newly permissible to the new believers. But the verse is speaking to both the new believers and the people of the book. It is explaining to the people of the book that the restrictions(for example the fat of the animals6:146) that has been once imposed on them is now lifted off them as they are believers in the Quran. But this also gives them the freedom to remain true to their covenant to God through their respective scriptures and follow what was given to them. 5:44, 5:45.
Peace
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Shalom /peace Mohammed
Did you even read the links I shared???? If not, we are wasting our time ....
peace Duster,
God gave you 'reason'. So before following others and their works verify for yourself, for your safety.
Take it as a humble advice to you and some other members of this forum.
It is very fortunate that br Hamzeh has responded to you so nicely ...as I am no way as gifted as him to give such a powerful well articulated response as he has ....which I agree with totally.......My response would have been a lot harsher...
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So now you take my humble advice too ..... don't think that thinking minds on this forum are going to take any sort of nonsensical claims seriously..... why should anyone follow you blindly???? I have considered your claims and I find many of them nonsensical.... what you want me to do then? Go against my reason and judgement and still believe you anyway? Don't I have the right to reject someone's claims if I find them weak????
The day you can provide me a deep ... comprehensive body of work that covers the entire spectrum of topics that the owner of this site has .... then start talking if you want to be taken seriously...ok? ....before you criticise others bring something that is persuasive first ... not half baked ideas with isolated verses on certain topics that don't stand up to close examination .....
If you can give out advice ....learn to take it too ....
Shalom / peace ...
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Dear Mohammed,
Peace be upon you,
May I share some thoughts about your issues of concern which you could consider looking into. This is notwithstanding that brothers Duster and Hamzeh have continuously offered to respond to your contentions. Hopefully this is acceptable with brother Joseph. I hope he will respond to your contentions to his article where necessary.
You share:
“but I think this is only applicable for that time i.e. for marriages that are fixed(given the bridal due) before the revelation of Qur'an.
here's the translation of 5:5 as I understand the verse,
"This day (all) the good things are made lawful for you; and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them; and the chaste women from among the believers and the chaste women from among those who have been given the Book before you; when you have given them their bridal due, marrying not fornicating nor taking them for secret concubines; and whoever denies faith, his work indeed is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers" ”
In my view, I do admit that ‘ataytumu’ - ‘you have given’ (5:5) truly alludes to a perfect action yes especially as emphasized by the 2nd person plural perfect verb ‘atay’ - ‘have given.’ However, one should also not overlook the timely provision which the adverb ‘when’ - ‘idha’ comes with. It certainly would have been referring to a ‘future’ event (the payment of a bridal due) especially when we consider that there are other ‘provisions’ that were being made lawful as mentioned prior to that in that same verse. It could be argued, from that verse alone, that a possibility is even hinted as to the absence of such a bridal due (ujura) arrangement in the manner the Qur’an would have expected it, prior to such a general permission (halal) to the believers.
On the other hand, if one is to understand that the provision of marrying from the chaste women (muhswanat) of the People of the Book to the believers only applied to those already given their bridal due, in that case then, what entails the new permission, what entails the new marriage arrangement that is being alluded to and in which sense is it a new arrangement? With the same line of thought, one is also bound to define/ identify the category of People of the Book whose ‘food’ (thwa’amu) is permitted to the believers for consumption. What prior allegiances or contracts would have to have bound the believers with such a category for them to enjoy each other’s foods in the same manner as with those already given a bridal due for the issue of marriage?
You share:
“So as they believed in the Qur'an, they will have Swalat, Fasting, Hajj etc. right? i.e. they are no more Nazarenes/Christians.”
Not necessarily. Believing in the Qur’an does not outright tantamount to rejecting other scriptures, ceasing to be followers of older scriptures nor not being the People of the Book, Jews nor Christians. If one does so, it would simply be a matter of choice, not a 'must do' thing as you seem to insist. Even before they believe in the Qur’an, they still are bound to perform such religious practices as swalaat, fasting, Hajj, etc. Just not the way you seem to be expecting them to perform them, that is, the way followers of Qur’an and believers under Quran’s guidance are supposed to, to every detail.
As brother Duster has tried to show you the context of the implication of such ‘isolated’ verses as 5:51, further referring you to brother Joseph’s article on the same [1], brother Hamzeh has also nicely tried to rightly broaden the scope of the ‘descriptive’ term ‘Islam’ (not a ‘linguistic’ label/ tag) which actually brings us under one ‘roof’ (Islam) and in fact ‘describes’ us (Qur’an followers and followers of older scriptures) altogether (muslimeen).
In as much as the contextually timely bound verses 5:82-84 are used to infer that those Christians that would likely be closer to Qur’an believers are those who would proclaim to have believed in the Qur’an or would shed tears when its strongly captivating verses are read, it has to be maintained that upon such an admission, they are said to be admitting to surely have already been muslims prior (28:53) and even so, amongst the believers/ followers of the Qur’an and themselves, each people has been prescribed their own law (shir’atan) and method (minhajan) to be tested in them so each is supposed to race in good works (arguably as per their own law and method) for it is to God where all shall finally return for reckoning (5:48).
Therefore, while verses 24:32 and 4:25 might contextually have possibly been with reference to women amongst believers/ followers of the Qur’an, verse 2:221 broadens the scope of the permissible category as those chosen with a ‘primary’ determination of correct and pure belief while verse 5:5 specifically permits those from among the People of the Book arguably with a ‘primary’ signification of the ‘correct’ belief in ‘one’ God as in 2:221. Thus, in light of 42:13 and 5:48, verses 3:19, 3:85 and 48:28 would not be referring to those believing souls amongst the People of the Book who still maintain their stance towards following their scriptures even after accepting the veracity of the message of the Qur’an alongside its divine origin claim.
You ask:
“Now think, is the term 'people of the book' applicable to today's Jews/Christians?(who do not follow the Qur'an)”
If by ‘do not follow the Qur’an’ you mean not adhering to the ‘law’ (shir’at) and ‘method’ (minhaj) prescribed by the Qur’an for believers then yes, as long as those particular Jews/ Christians do adopt the ‘law’ (shir’at) and ‘method’ (minhaj) proffered by their scriptures as it ought to be adopted - with the Qur’an as a check/ criterion (muhaymin, 5:48) and as the overall criterial authority (furqan, 25:1).
You then append:
“[and do you think that all people today who say 'we follow the Qur'an' are in true dheen?]”
Certainly not all. You can refer to brother Hamzeh’s response above. See also verse 3:167 where God sees to the condition of hypocrites who conceal what is in their hearts to proclaim false confessions. In my humble opinion, verses 3:113-115 do not only apply to the People of the Book but generally to any group of believing souls including believers/ followers of the Qur’an.
Finally you share:
“So before following others and their works verify for yourself, for your safety.”
I would in this case again share to you brother Hamzeh’s advice to you above regarding this. As brother Duster has shared above, it is in the first place at best contradictory and at worst, dishonest, to jot down statements whose undertones appear to insinuate blind-following of others, while again indirectly giving an implication to be followed of ones own thoughts, obviously, blindly. The strength of an argument/ thought/ idea used/ referred to is what makes it to either be accepted or rejected hence dismissed/ denounced or referred to/ be used. Therefore, presenting or referring one to somebody else’s exposition, discourse or thoughts does not mean that one is blindly ‘following others and have not verified the information, for their own safety’ (sharing brother Hamzeh’s advice to you is a good example of that by the way). Again, if in future I happen in another thread to refer to a given argument that you brother Mohammed raise in this thread today which I find convincing and evidenced from the Qur’an, surely, as you may agree, I should then not be criticized of not using my intellect, my ‘reasoning’ ability, not verifying the information for myself nor will I be ‘following’ your arguments blindly. Kindly think about this.
I hope that my comments shall be received with the respect with which it is imparted.
Regards,
Athman.
REFERENCE:
[1]. Taking unbelievers as friends to avoid harm
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=260
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The day you can provide me a deep ... comprehensive body of work that covers the entire spectrum of topics that the owner of this site has ....
peace Duster,
Why are you still waiting for people's [creatures] work, while The Creator's work (The Qur'an) is in your hand!?
8:29
You, you those who believed if you are aware of God (fear and obey), He makes/creates for you a criterion(Separation of Right and Wrong), and He covers/substitutes from you your sins, and forgives for you, and God (is owner) of the grace/favour/blessing, the great.
No offence intended. It was just an advice, you always have your choice…
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The day you can provide me a deep ... comprehensive body of work that covers the entire spectrum of topics that the owner of this site has ....
peace Duster,
Why are you still waiting for people's [creatures] work, while The Creator's work (The Qur'an) is in your hand!?
8:29
You, you those who believed if you are aware of God (fear and obey), He makes/creates for you a criterion(Separation of Right and Wrong), and He covers/substitutes from you your sins, and forgives for you, and God (is owner) of the grace/favour/blessing, the great.
No offence intended. It was just an advice, you always have your choice…
Aren't you a creature? On that basis why should I listen to you? ......
So yes, the Qur a'an is in my hand .,,and with that thought ....i reject your claims because I don't think they are in line with it ....
No offence intended either. ...
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Shalom / peace brothers Athman and Hamzeh ....... just wanted to quickly say that along with certain other members of this forum ....how much i enjoy reading your posts and arguments ......i wish i could emulate both of yours and br. Joseph's patience and immaculate style of delivery ..... but i don't think i have the ingredients :-[. ...but I'm learning 8)......May Allah bless you both .....
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Therefore, presenting or referring one to somebody else’s exposition, discourse or thoughts does not mean that one is blindly ‘following others and have not verified the information, for their own safety’ (sharing brother Hamzeh’s advice to you is a good example of that by the way). Again, if in future I happen in another thread to refer to a given argument that you brother Mohammed raise in this thread today which I find convincing and evidenced from the Qur’an, surely, as you may agree, I should then not be criticized of not using my intellect, my ‘reasoning’ ability, not verifying the information for myself nor will I be ‘following’ your arguments blindly. Kindly think about this
This is such a great and important point ....
Just to support this ... i even noted br. Joseph refer to another member of this forum - br Imran Faruqui and gave a reference from him ....even though br Joseph has clear differences of academic views with him ....this doesn't mean anyone is following anyone blindly ....
The topic was about Dhul Qurnain .....http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2742.0
I think after years of following a religion and finding out things aren't what they seemed. .some people completely lose trust in learned people or the clergy class ...so what they end up doing is distrusting everybody even if the arguments are excellent .....this is a very sad outcome ....there is that saying about baby and bathwater....
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Asalamu 3alykum
Thank you brother Duster it means a lot and I'm humbled to see that an intelligent brother says that Masha'Allah. May God bless you
I as well really enjoy reading your comments and brother Athman and along side the other brothers and sister's Alhamdulila and may God strengthen us with one another for His sake Insha'Allah.
I thank the Lord for having me meet great people like yourselves who Im able to read their comments and learn the good techniques you use to argue in kind and direct ways which before I had no clue. Alhamdulila.
I would have to say that I found you very patient in much of your responses and have clearly steered people in the right direction after long discussions Alhamdulila. May the Lord Grant you and us patience Insha'Allah.
Brother Mohammed although sometimes we might not all see eye to eye I do appreciate that your giving your inputs and striving and relying on God Insha'Allah. As brothers and sisters in Islam I try to see how we can be united under a right interpretations as a whole rather than having way to many personal interprations that dont go to far and are negated by shedding tension on certain clear verses.
I works in this site most of the time have related articles at the bottom of each article which help to get ideas about relating topics.
As some of us here have been through lots of the repeated arguments we simply try to steer a person to an article or discussion that might Insha'Allah clear some confusion.
It's really important to be familiar with other topics as well so that when learning ir reading about topic the others are also in your mind Insha'Allah. This will give you hints if that interpretation will pass. May God bless you
Salam
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Salaam Hamzeh,
I totally agree with your sentiments and thank you to those who responded here, putting so much time and effort into their comments.
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Asalamu 3alykum
Although I did not mention you by name but thank you as well sister Truth Seeker for all your efforts and its very nice to read your comments which are thoughtful and remind us all of the messages of the Quran from time to time . May God bless you.
I although would like to note that the Quran has acknowledged in some way that there is people who have gained or should gain sound knowledge/deeper understanding of the religion/system/deen that they may at least warn/educate/illustrate/caution/teach those who did not take that roll on.
I would compare those who have taken that roll on, with those who have went out to fight and sacrificed their lives and have put tremendous efforts.
9:122 And the believers should not all go out to fight. Of every troop of them, a party only should go forth, that they (who are left behind) may gain sound knowledge in religion, and that they may warn their folk when they return to them, so that they may beware.
So there is nothing wrong with learning from those who have grasped the message Insha'Allah.
May God bless those who strive in His sake Insha'Allah.
Salam
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Hamzeh,
I tend to try and give an overall picture in my posts and do feel that other members are much better equipped at giving the detailed and balanced responses.
I think you have made a pertinent point when you said: I although would like to note that the Quran has acknowledged in some way that there is people who have gained or should gain sound knowledge/deeper understanding of the religion/system/deen that they may at least warn/educate/illustrate/caution/teach those who did not take that roll on.
We have many members here who have a deep knowledge and understanding of the scripture and it is commendable that they spend their time trying to impart their wisdom to help others. Much more needed I feel in this current climate, where so many people find themselves confused with Islam and are sadly on the verge of leaving this wonderful Deen.
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I think at times an overall wrapped up picture of a topic is just right to some seekers and that all they were looking for. But I must say I also find your comments are well detailed and balance and I consider your responses and comments very valuable. Insha'Allah you will keep up the efforts and may God reward you for them.
I have also noted with myself and others where we had tried to elucidate to others some of brothers Joseph's articles but may of misrepresented them by bringing in another point and it was with respect that he had also given us his insight were we went wrong which widened and broadened the topic to which makes other things even more clear Masha'Allah.
So my point was earlier to brother Mohammad that the Quran does require a people in a whole that study, share, spread, and teach the message and also must agree on fundamentals and give and take with eachother to establish a best interpretation as possible. That to form a just balanced community there is nothing wrong with learning from another.
Salam
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Wa 'alaikum salaam/peace, all
The Qur’an is/was the Guidance for all people, Qur'an revealed confirming to what the people had/believed/followed before it i.e. the scriptures (guidances) of the former prophets. So, those who followed the former scriptures would definitely believe and accept the Qur’an as the truth and guidance.
And I'm curious to know that what's you people's understanding of Guidance ?
2:38-41
We said: "Drop/decline from it, all together, then whenever guidance comes to you from Me, so who followed My guidance, so no fear/fright on them and nor they be sad/grieving."
And those who disbelieved and denied with Our verses/evidences, those are the fire's owners/company, they (are) in it eternally.
You Israel's sons and daughters, remember My blessing, which I blessed on you, and fulfill/complete with My promise/contract, I fulfill/complete with your promise/contract, and (only)Me so be terrified/monkish of Me.
And believe with what I descended, confirming to what (is) with you, and do not be (the) first disbeliever with it, and do not buy/volunteer with My verses/evidences a small/littleprice, and (only) Me, so fear and obey Me(taqwa).
Thus as the guidance came, they believed
5:83-84
...“Our Lord, we believe, so record us with the witnesses.” “And why should we not believe in God and what has come to us of the truth?
You share:
“So as they believed in the Qur'an, they will have Swalat, Fasting, Hajj etc. right? i.e. they are no more Nazarenes/Christians.”
Not necessarily...
I disagree with you. Believing in the Book means accepting it as the truth and guidance. Therefore, one who believes in it should follow it.[this is the same case in many of the Qur’an alone followers today; they don’t know what is FAITH actually].
For example, consider 5:6, how your Logic works here if one believes in the Qur'an? because it's a command to the believers of the Qur'an/guidance !
You, you those who believed, when/if you started/got up to the swalat, so wash with water your faces, and your hands to the elbows, and rub/wipe with your heads and your feet to the two joints/ankle bones…
Secondly .... the Quran says not to take awliya ONLY with those that are trouble makers and ridicule the religion..... you have taken one verse and missed out the clarifying verse 5:57.
As mentioned by brother Joseph in the link below .....
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=260
Regarding 5:51 & 57
Based on my Qur’an studies, Jews and Nazarenes/Christians were sects among 'the people of the Book’ who followed their desires. See 2:120-121, 2:140, 9:30, 5:18 etc.
And among the people of the Book (other than the sects) there were wrong doers that’s what verse 5:57 talking about. [ like those in among today's Qur'an followers ('people of the Qur'an')]
I agree with brother Duster as it could get very hard to respond to questions that are not correlated with the message of the Quran...
If you have the truth with you, you can easily answer such questions..
And regarding verses like 2:62, 5:69 etc.
5:69
That those who believed and those who guided/Jews, and the Sabians, and the Nazarenes/Christians, who believed with God and the Day the Last, and worked correct/righteous deeds, so no fear on them, and nor they be sad/grieving.
If one believed in God, he would also believe in God's revelations! (See 2:285) Therefore, 5:69 could be for those who were in such sects (Jews, Christians sabians etc.) before the Qur’an’s revelation? Why not? [God's message of truth has always been the same-ponder over 48:28].
and one verse before 5:69 (5:58)
Say: "You The Book's people, you are not on a thing, until you keep up the Torah and the Injeel, and what was descended to you from your Lord." And what was descended to you(Muhammad) from your Lord increases many of them tyranny/arrogance, and disbelief, so do not grieve/sadden on the nation, the disbelieving.
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Last verse quoted is 5:68 not 58
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Based on my Qur’an studies, Jews and Nazarenes/Christians were sects among 'the people of the Book’ who followed their desires. See 2:120-121, 2:140, 9:30, 5:18 etc.
i.e. like those today who follows their desires other than the Qur'an
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And regarding verses like 2:62, 5:69 etc.
5:69
That those who believed and those who guided/Jews, and the Sabians, and the Nazarenes/Christians, who believed with God and the Day the Last, and worked correct/righteous deeds, so no fear on them, and nor they be sad/grieving.
If one believed in God, he would also believe in God's revelations! (See 2:285) Therefore, 5:69 could be for those who were in such sects (Jews, Christians sabians etc.) before the Qur’an’s revelation? Why not? [God's message of truth has always been the same-ponder over 48:28].
Shalom / peace....What are you talking about?
How did you deduce the statement:
If one believed in God, he would also believe in God's revelations! ]
What has believing in God got to do with believing in all revelations? ....There could easily be those that believe in God but haven't been convinced of the revelations that came after them because ....they haven't come across them in a persuasive way or simply haven't read them.... but they can still believe in God!!
In my view ....this is how your interpolations are leading your interpretations astray!
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Dear Mohammed,
Peace,
Kindly see my responses below to your contentions:
“The Qur’an is/was the Guidance for all people, Qur'an revealed confirming to what the people had/believed/followed before it i.e. the scriptures (guidances) of the former prophets. So, those who followed the former scriptures would definitely believe and accept the Qur’an as the truth and guidance.
And I'm curious to know that what's you people's understanding of Guidance ?”
RESPONSE 1:
As referenced earlier, in verse (5:48), it is pointed out that each of us (in this case the Abrahamic faiths) has been assigned their own law (shir'atan) and method (wa minhajan). With respect to verses 2:38-42 that you share as regards what ‘guidance’ (huda) entails, it was never the intention of God to leave humankind remain as one nation (walau la kalimatu sabaqat min rabbika) [10:19] but we have been diversified in laws - ‘shir’at’ and methods - ‘minhaj’(collectively guidance - ‘huda’) [2:38] laid out within scriptures/ revelations/ signs (ayat) [7:35, 20:123-127] to be tested with them (5:48). Therefore, guidance in the form of revelations is not only found within the Qur’an but also in older scriptures as revealed to the People of the Book.
As a check (muhaymin), the Qur'an therefore confirms (muswaddiqan) previous scriptures sent to the Children of Israel (2:41), clarifies and corrects them (litubayyina) where necessary (16:64), explains them (watafswila) where warranted (10:37), reveals that which has been obfuscated (mimma kuntum tukhfuna) and inserted (yaktubuna al-kitaba bi aydihim) [2:79] while still overlooking (waya’fu) much in them (5:15). Thus, the People of the Book are to follow all the teachings in their scriptures in truth (5:68) using the Qur'an as the main discerning tool (2:41). It is in this sense how the Qur’an acts as a ‘guidance’ for them as they remain observant of the contract in 7:35 and 7:157 (wanaswaruuhu wattaba’u an-nura al-ladhi un-zila ma’ahu) as well as 2:100-101. This is still with a view to stay in line with what is expected of each Abrahamic faith (5:48) as decreed by God for specific reasons (5:48, 11:118).
“I disagree with you. Believing in the Book means accepting it as the truth and guidance. Therefore, one who believes in it should follow it.[this is the same case in many of the Qur’an alone followers today; they don’t know what is FAITH actually].”
RESPONSE 2:
I do respect your prerogative to disagree. However, as far as what you excerpted from my earlier comments is concerned, I am quite surprised that you seem to forgo the rest of my sentiments in their full remit. I once again disagree with your take on what is to be understood as ‘believing’ (amanuhu) or ‘following’ (wattaba’u) the Prophet (s.a.w) or Qur’an. Kindly see my position in RESPONSE 1.
“For example, consider 5:6, how your Logic works here if one believes in the Qur'an? because it's a command to the believers of the Qur'an/guidance !”
RESPONSE 3:
Respectfully, I see this as a strawman’s argument especially considering who the primary audience of the Qur’an is. ‘O you who believe’ (ya ayyuha a-ladhina amanu) is a popular Qur’anic address to the believers/ followers of the Qur’an. Other familiar addresses are employed for other different audiences. There is even a general address for people in general (ya ayyuha an-nas).
On the other hand, when it is a direct address to factions amongst the People of the Book, the Qur’an does mention so (e.g, 2:122, 3:65, 3:70-71, 3:113-115, 4:171, 5:15-19). In the verses you shared (2:62, 5:69), the Qur’an even distinguishes between believers of the Qur’an (alladhina amanu) and those of older scriptures (man amana billahi...). Those who disbelieve in their scriptures amongst the People of the Book are the losers (2:121). However, those who do believe in their scriptures and all the revelations sent to them (5:68) amongst People of the Book as do the believers of the Qur’an (2:136) do share a common belief in religion with them (2:137). This does not however preclude the expectation of each of them to uphold the religious code of conduct and worship as stipulated to them each in their own respective scripture (5:48).
Hopefully that clarifies.
Regards,
Athman.
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RESPONSE 1:
As referenced earlier, in verse (5:48), it is pointed out that each of us (in this case the Abrahamic faiths) has been assigned their own law (shir'atan) and method (wa minhajan)...
You can forget/ignore/hide verses in your post, but you can't make readers blind.
Read 5:48 & 49 carefully and completely. Consider this reply to you as my last response.
salaam
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Dear Mohammed,
Peace be upon you,
Kindly see verses 5:48 and 5:49 cited below:
"And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a watcher over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation, but so that He tests you in what He has given you; so race in [doing] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ." [Qur'an, Al-Ma'idah 5:48]
"And judge, [O Muhammad], between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations and beware of them, lest they tempt you away from some of what Allah has revealed to you. And if they turn away - then know that Allah only intends to afflict them with some of their [own] sins. And indeed, many among the people are defiantly disobedient." [Qur'an, Al-Ma'idah 5:49]
Dear brother, with all due respect, I am somehow quite disappointed that you seem not ready to indulge into an engaging discussion.
Respectfully, you appear to have a narrowed interpretation of certain Qur'anic verses based on a confined ambit of narratives within which it is made. I trust that I have given you an apt interpretation of the verses under question. I would have been readier and more willing to engage with and at best accept an alternative one if there could have been. As far as goes your interpretation above, I would humbly reiterate my disagreement but resort to my understanding as given in my earlier responses.
I am otherwise sorry if I appeared to have ignored what you seem to have noticed to have been from my side. I however had no intention to nor does it sincerely appear so if read within the whole context of supporting verses. With all the related verses in view, I still would understand and interpret the verses 5:48-49 in the manner I have. We can just agree to disagree if this is conclusively in contrary to what you do and will ever do interpret those verses the way you do.
Similarly, I humbly have to conclude my responses to you with this one on this particular matter.
Regards,
Athman.
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Asalamu 3alykum brother Athman
Masha'Allah that was a very good detailed response.
You brought my attention on the verses and the highlighted parts and want to see if you agree if you don't mind.
What is your understanding of the part of the verse that says "and judge between them by what Allah(swt) has reaveled"? It is said once in 5:48 And once in 5:49
Do you think its between the People which goes back to the context in verse 5:42 those who came to the prophet for judgment ? That's what I understand it to be
And if so would you say that it is expected that Jews and Christians would also need to judge by what they were given by using the Quran as a criterion regarding their books and would judge in their countries who ever abides therein including Muslims?
Salam
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I forgot to mention 22:67 (one of the misinterpreted verse)
22:67 For every nation We made a ritual or method of worship they are practicing the rituals or methods of worship, so they do not dispute/quarrel with you in the matter/affair, And call upon your Lord, for you are on a guidance which is straight.
22:68 And if they argued/disputed with you, then say: “God is fully aware of what you make/do."
22:69 "God judges/rules between you (on) the Resurrection Day, in what you were in it differing/disagreeing."
salaam
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And do not misunderstand the FAITH of traditional Muslims. They (not all) are following the commands like 5:6 because they born in a traditional Muslim family. The real FAITH is when one (from any religion) realising the truth and accepting the truth. So, as he realising/believing in the Qur’an, he follows the commands like 5:6. (O you who believe...)
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And do not misunderstand the FAITH of traditional Muslims. They (not all) are following the commands like 5:6 because they born in a traditional Muslim family. The real FAITH is when one (from any religion) realising the truth and accepting the truth. So, as he realising/believing in the Qur’an, he follows the commands like 5:6. (O you who believe...)
What is your point? You are not making sense to me anymore ....Just quoting random verses and highlighting words with colour is not helping ....
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RESPONSE 1:
As referenced earlier, in verse (5:48), it is pointed out that each of us (in this case the Abrahamic faiths) has been assigned their own law (shir'atan) and method (wa minhajan)...
You can forget/ignore/hide verses in your post, but you can't make readers blind.
Read 5:48 & 49 carefully and completely. Consider this reply to you as my last response.
salaam
Mohammed ....
I think you need to revisit the Qur'an's verses again and study the Qur'an again....it is not brother Athman that is making readers blind .... but you are thrusting weird interpretations on to clear verses .... your interpretation is way off .... each to their own I guess ....
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Peace Mohammed
Why dont you think if it this way for instance regarding the verse you quoted 22:67-69
Imagine putting yourself in the prophets place for a moment, realizing the religion has already been bestowed on a former people who are amongst you of the Jews and Christain Arabs and God has now given you guidance but the guidance has different rituals, a different direction of prayer, a different way and time of fasting, etc from them.
These people who are amongst you are from those who recieved the scripture and have their own rites and methods like their own direction of prayer their own food restrictions, the Sabbath day, etc.
The ones who don't know better are trying to convince you that you must obey them and follow what was given to them and yours is not the way because they cannot fathom that God has allowed different rites and methods. Just like how they also accused eachother of having nothing to stand upon and for example the Jews would say to the Christians say nothing true and vice versa 2:113 or they both would say that if your are not a Jew or a Christian you do not enter heaven(2:111). But look at the verses and see how God replied to them through the Quran.
So as you can see these arguments were also before the Quran was revealed.
Therefor God is making it clear that the rites and methods He has bestowed upon you is a guidance that is straight. This is not to say that those who recieved the religion/system are not in a straight path. Of course what was given to them from God is of a surety from God also.
The rites given to Moses and Jesus (pbut) are different from each other and different from prophet Muhammad(pbuh) rites as well.
This could also be alluded to the prophets own people the polytheists as well who do not accept the rites and methods and only want to follow their own traditions.
Peace
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I am afraid also that this is true of what brother Duster have said. I'm starting to think you are not serious about this.
What is your point? You are not making sense to me anymore ....Just quoting random verses and highlighting words with colour is not helping ....
You have been taking some verses that are speaking about one thing and disregarding other clear commands that we as Muslims have to take heed of.
We have shares the verses that command the People of the Book to their own revelations from God. You have not attempted to give us a translation of what they mean. We also indicates that God has internationally and deliberately have each nation their own rites and methods so that it was His will to test us.
We also indicates and kindly showed you that God does not consider all.of them alike. There is some like this and some like that. Context will indicate who is who.
Peace
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And do not misunderstand the FAITH of traditional Muslims. They (not all) are following the commands like 5:6 because they born in a traditional Muslim family. The real FAITH is when one (from any religion) realising the truth and accepting the truth. So, as he realising/believing in the Qur’an, he follows the commands like 5:6. (O you who believe...)
I found some illogical claim which says that believers of God’s revelation /The Book(2:2)/The Qur’an doesn’t necessarily need to obey/follow the command ‘O you who believe’ (e.g. 5:6).
Just to clarify that I posted it. Perhaps they may think.
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Dear brother Hamzeh,
Wa alaikumus salaam,
Kindly see my humble thoughts below in response to your solicitation of an input.
"Do you think its between the People which goes back to the context in verse 5:42 those who came to the prophet for judgment ? That's what I understand it to be"
I do share such an understanding yes.
In such a context, for purposes of an admonition, the Prophet (pbuh) is given an option to 'turn away' (tu'ridhw) from them (Jews - al-ladhina hadu, 5:41) if he so wishes. If he otherwise opts to give a judgment (wa in hakamta), he is instructed to give a just one (bil qisthwi) which is however readily already to be found within the Taurat they possess in which are God's judgments - 'hukmu allahi' (5:43), guidance (hudan) and light (wa nurun) - 5:44.
Those from the Jews who do not judge according to what God revealed (bi ma an-zalallahu) of such judgments, guidance and light from the 'Taurat' as did their prophets (an-nabiyyuna), rabbis (ar-rabbaniyyuna) and scholars (al-ahbaru), they actually are the disbelievers (humu al-kafirun) - 5:44. Such instances of judgments/ laws (hukm) are outlined (5:45, life for a life...) and that those who do not rule according to such revealed judgments/ laws are the unjust (humu ad-dhwalimun).
In the footsteps of those previous prophets to the Children of Israel, Prophet Isa (pbuh) was sent with the 'Injeel' as a confirmation of the 'Taurat,' as a guidance (hudan), light (nurun) and counsel (maw'idhwatan) to the righteous (5:46) thus those who followed it were supposed to judge (walyahkum) according to what was revealed (bi ma an-zalallahu) of judgment in it (fihi) - 5:47.
Therefore, in light of this foregoing precept (5:43, 5:47), the Prophet (s.a.w) was supposed to judge the Jews and the Christians according to the Taurat and Gospel respectively, the Qur'an superseding them both altogether.
"What is your understanding of the part of the verse that says "and judge between them by what Allah(swt) has reaveled"? It is said once in 5:48 And once in 5:49"
'By what God has revealed' (bi ma an-zala llahu) in verses 5:48-49 in the context of judgment over People of the Book would still refer to 'what God has revealed' (bi ma an-zala llahu) for the Jews (5:44) as well as 'what God has revealed' (bi ma an-zala llahu) for the Christians (5:47).
To be sure of what was truly revealed in their scriptures (5:44, 5:47) which is what they are actually to be judged against, such that he would be judging between them justly (bil qisthwi) -5:42, the Prophet (s.a.w) is to check whatever is prescribed for them in the scripture they possess (e.g 3:93, 'say bring the Taurat...') against that which is approved of them in the Qur'an (16:118, 6:146). Therefore, the Qur'an stands as the ultimate check (muhaymin) against scriptures of the People of the Book as can again be seen in the verse 5:45 against Exodus 21:23-25 (also Leviticus 24:18-21 and Deuteronomy 19:21).
In such a way, the Prophet (s.a.w) would avoid pursuing their desires - 'ahwahum' (2:120) in the form of 'laws' (hukm) possibly some from their times of ignorance (5:50, hukma al-jahiliyyati) brought forth (yaktubuna al-kitaba bi aydihim) in the name of religion (2:79) or rather doctoring the scriptures (5:15, tukhfuna) through for instance, attempted obfuscation (5:41, yuharrafuna al-kalima min ba'di mawadhwi'ihi). If after checking their scriptures against the Qur'an the Prophet (s.a.w) encounters a disparity, then surely, that particular judgment/ rule is not part of their commandments/ judgments but from their own whims (ahwahum).
"And if so would you say that it is expected that Jews and Christians would also need to judge by what they were given by using the Quran as a criterion regarding their books and would judge in their countries who ever abides therein including Muslims?"
In my humble opinion, on the other hand, yes, I do resonate the sentiment that the same is to be reciprocated to believers of the Qur'an in a government (Jewish/ Christian) whose primary scripture of authority is that of the People of the Book; i.e, one that guides/ rules by the 'Taurat'/ 'Injeel'/ 'al-Kitab' in truth - the Qur'an being the final check (muhaymin) and criterion (furqan) sifting through in this case the main authoritative scripture ('al-Kitab'). However, collectively, together with those subjects that are exclusive followers of the Qur'an, such a Jewish/ Christian community is descriptively Muslim.
In summary therefore, the Prophet (s.a.w) and believers of the Qur'an were to use the Qur'an to discern that which 'has been revealed' by God (ma an-zalallahu) in the former scriptures when judging them lest they follow their desires hence their doctored creed (mil-lat). See the following quotation:
"And the Jews (al-yahuda) will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians (an-Naswara), till thou follow their creed (mil-latahum). Say: Lo! the guidance (huda) of Allah (Himself) is the Guidance (al-huda). And if thou shouldst follow their desires (ahwa-ahum) after the knowledge which hath come unto thee, then wouldst thou have from Allah no protecting guardian nor helper." [Qur'an, Al-Baqarah 2:120]
However, bearing in mind that each of nations (ummat) was sent a prophet with a given set code of rules (hukm) and devotional acts (mansakan), each is supposed to race in good works within their law (shir'atan) and avoid unnecessary disputes across such codes of conduct (minhajan).
Believers of the Qur'an should not falter in their 'creed,' 'law' nor 'way' for they are upon an 'upright guidance' (hudan mustaqim). Given the context, this was clearly an admonition for the Prophet (s.a.w). See the verse below:
"For every Ummah We have appointed acts of devotion (mansakan), which they observe. So do not let them dispute with you in this matter. And invite to your Lord; you are upon a upright guidance (hudan mustaqim)." [Qur'an, Al-Hajj 22:67]
Hopefully that clarifies my position. Thanks for giving me the chance to elucidate further.
Regards,
Athman.
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THOSE WHO DO NOT FOLLOW THE MESSENGER ARE NOT GUIDED BY GOD
e.g. Those who do not follow the qibla of the prophet (2:143), they follow their desires (2:145)
2:143
...And We did not make the qibla that you were on it except that We may know who is following the messenger from those who will turn on their two heels. It was a great thing indeed except for those whom God had guided...
God's message of truth has always been the same -2:136,140, 2:38,39 5:68, 3:19, 48:28 etc.
salaam
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Asalamu 3alykum
Brother Athman, thank you for the detailed response. Insha'Allah I will reply back in due time as I have a couple inquiries to your response.
Brother Mohammed
Verse 2:143 is elucidating why God has allowed the former direction of prayer to be permitted, is because God was testing those who were already following him to see if they were going follow him the prophet(pbuh) even as the qibla changed to another direction? or where they going to turn back on his heels?
The prophet's first recipients where the gentiles. The Quiraysh who never were warned before
28:46-47 "And you were not on this side of the mountain when We called, but a mercy from your Lord that you may warn a people to whom no warner came before you, that they may be mindful. And were it not that there should befall them a disaster for what their hands have sent before, then they should say: Our Lord! why did you not send to us a messenger so that we should have followed Thy communications and been of the believers!"
36.2-6 "I swear by the Quran full of wisdom, Most surely you are one of the messengers, On a right way. A revelation of the Mighty, the Merciful. That you may warn a people whose fathers were not warned, so they are heedless"
62.2 "It is He Who has sent among the 'ummiyina'(*gentiles/people who were not given Scripture before) a messenger from among themselves, to rehearse to them His verses, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom, although before they had been in manifest error"
* brackets my own interpolation
Also it is important to note in verse 2:145 that God has stipulated that its in the behaviour of mankind those who been given the messages will not follow each others direction of prayer(qibla).
The desires in verse 2:145 would not be their qibla as they each had a direction which they turn to verse 2:248. This would allude to them trying to turn you away from your qibla or follow their invented desires.
Please examine these articles and let me know if the People of the Book's qibla has ever been Masjid Al-Haram?
Also I'm sure you will realize that it was not, so were they the people of the book supposed to sever/cut the ties/covenants they had with God and follow another direction and another law/method/rituals?
Salam
THE QIBLA CHANGE
http://quransmessage.com/articles/qibla%20FM3.htm
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peace Hamzeh,
It doesn't matter what was the qibla before or what is now. It's clear from the verse that those who do not follow the prophet's qibla are not guided by God.
The desires in verse 2:145 would not be their qibla...
Not acceptable. The verse is clear.
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Peace Mohammed
I'm not arguing that they did not have to follow the prophet. This is another topic. We already explained also that people of the book are expected to believe in the Quran as well if its been manifested to them. I told you before that how can a previous believer of a Book of God disbelieve in another scripture that confirms what was already said.
What Im arguing for is that the following of the prophet was literal. The people living in his time were expected to follow him as a human in matters of religion as the Quran was being revealed to him. The people of the book also would of been expected to follow him and help him while abiding by their covenants of old or out of choice abandon their laws and methods and adapt to the laws of the Quran.
It is also clear from the verses you shared that it was a major test for the people who were living amongst him.
If you notice the prophet has actually followed a qibla direction that his own people were questioning which only suggests he is following a qibla somewhere which a party of the people of the book must of been following.
So the people in question and at trial here are not the people of the book but the gentle Arabs.
They were expected to follow the prophet in the direction that was not their own. Which was meant to be a trial for his followers to see if they were going to abandon what was dear and loved by them.
But it was not till later 2:145 that God has assigned the desired qibla back to the prophet as it was made clear that the reason God has allowed the prophet for the time being to follow another qibla(possibly the qibla of some of the people of the book who were praying at that time) only because to test those who were with him.
Also Mohammed can you please make a summary or explain the clear explicit verses first which we have shared with you regarding this topic and then after that it would be better to interpret the rest of the verse in light of the explicit ones.
2:62
3:113-114
5:68
5:43
5:44
5:45
5:47
5:48
5:66
7:159
22:67-69
And many more
Have you read the articles shared and analyzed them?
Peace
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I already shared my view regarding the verses like 2:62, 5:69 etc.
And I suggest you to read the verses 5:77-86, 2:38-39 etc. if you are still in doubt.
2:106
"We do not abrogate/abolish/erase/nullify from a sign/verse/evidence, or We make it forgotten, (except that) We
come/bring with better than it, or similar/equal/alike to it. Do you not know that God (is) on every thing powerful/capable."
(also see 2:105)
Therefore, it doesn’t matter for me, whether you believe or not. Just shared my thoughts.
salaam/peace
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I already shared my view regarding the verses like 2:62, 5:69 etc.
And I suggest you to read the verses 5:77-86, 2:38-39 etc. if you are still in doubt.
Doubt of what? What do the verses you give prove????
2:106
"We do not abrogate/abolish/erase/nullify from a sign/verse/evidence, or We make it forgotten, (except that) We
come/bring with better than it, or similar/equal/alike to it. Do you not know that God (is) on every thing powerful/capable."
(also see 2:105)
Yes and? Where does it say in these verses that the whole Torah has been nullified for the Jews??? Some verses or signs may be superseded for believers ....yes ... for example ... we don't have to follow the complicated food laws of the Jews... They still have to follow it .... Why don't you read verse verse 16:118 carefully to clear your doubt and stop worrying about other people's doubt?
"And to those who are Jews We have prohibited that which We related to you before. And We did not wrong them [thereby], but they were wronging themselves." 16:118
See - Allah has forbidden something for them but not for believers? Get it now? Will you listen or simply reject this as well?
Therefore, it doesn’t matter for me, whether you believe or not. Just shared my thoughts.
Please take my brotherly advice ... please revisit your arguments and beliefs ....
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Peace
Just to add to brother Dusters comments regarding 2:106. This is also alluded to the children of Israel as well when they believe in the Quran.
Meaning that God has nullified the restriction of eating of the fat and other food that was restricted to the children of Israel.
Because the Quran has clearly stated that the food that the Quran legitimizes is NOW lawful for the people of the book. Which in other words this specific detail of food for the people of the book has been replaced with the new rulings for food.
Also it is telling the people of the book that yes God can bring a verse similar or better than before or replace or abrogate.
You will need to prove to me that the laws and covenants of the people of the book have been severed.
As a matter of fact the verse is still asking for the covenants to be fulfilled so that God will do His part for the children of Israel
2:40
O Children of Israel! Remember My favour wherewith I favoured you, and fulfil your (part of the) covenant, I shall fulfil My (part of the) covenant, and fear me.
Peace