QM Forum
The Quran => General Discussions => Topic started by: Talib on July 15, 2012, 06:25:03 AM
-
Salamun Alaikum
Recently, I saw this video that was forwarded to me by a friend. I would like to have views about the concept/information in this video in the light of Quran.
Various Quranic verses come up in mind that MAY BE related/assumed/confused? to be telling something like this. Is it ?
http://thesecret.tv/thesecretfilm/
http://www.youtube.com/user/aSecretAgent?feature=relchannel
I focus more on understanding Quran and implementing the directives given (in my limits) but some of my friends seem to suggest that Quran also tells us something like this..
I feel delighted to have learned personalities here to speak to and would appreciate to have views on this.
Thank you
Talib
(student)
P.S.
With thanks for the very nice reply earlier, I am looking forward to have Dear Optimist's view on this. Simply because I find his reply very helpful and thought provoking. Somehow, I find his reply related to the above concept. Would like to be clarified if I am mistaken.
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=413.0
-
Aslamaolaikum brother Talib -
I am looking forward to have Dear Optimist's view on this. Simply because I find his reply very helpful and thought provoking. Somehow, I find his reply related to the above concept. Would like to be clarified if I am mistaken.
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=413.0
I hope you don't mind me giving a reply on this too!!
I think the law of attraction has been criticized to some degree because it has quite a negative side to it too 'Certain bad things happen to people, because they bring it into reality'. Then what about famine, plane crashes, diseases, poverty etc etc?
Also - you could be down in the dumps and in a really bad way thinking of really negative things and then suddenly something really good happens which changes everything. How did those negative thoughts then bring a positive result?? Sometimes you may have no expectation for a certain good to happen and then it does.
Then there is also some confusion over being optimistic and the law of attraction. For example it is good to be optimistic by keeping trust in Allah.
065.003
YUSUFALI: And He provides for him from (sources) he never could imagine. And if any one puts his trust in Allah, sufficient is (Allah) for him. For Allah will surely accomplish his purpose: verily, for all things has Allah appointed a due proportion.
But saying that we bring something into reality as a law of attraction in some ways does away with the need for Allah (Astagfurullah) which is false from an Islamic view I think.
However, some interesting info on Wiki for this and also a discussion blog below which looks at this from an Islamic point of view. The comments are very interesting to the blog (please scroll to the bottom after reading the blog). Saba 8)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_attraction
http://muslim-mind.com/2011/05/optimism-and-the-law-of-attraction-in-islam/
-
Salamun Alaikum
Recently, I saw this video that was forwarded to me by a friend. I would like to have views about the concept/information in this video in the light of Quran.
Various Quranic verses come up in mind that MAY BE related/assumed/confused? to be telling something like this. Is it ?
http://thesecret.tv/thesecretfilm/
http://www.youtube.com/user/aSecretAgent?feature=relchannel
I focus more on understanding Quran and implementing the directives given (in my limits) but some of my friends seem to suggest that Quran also tells us something like this..
I feel delighted to have learned personalities here to speak to and would appreciate to have views on this.
Thank you
Talib
(student)
Salamun Alaikum,
According to Islam, man has two aspects of existence; one: physical existence where he is similar to animals; two: human life where he should follow a code of law referred to as ‘permanent values’, given to him through divine revelation and meant to develop his ‘personality’.
Allah says “Allah has rendered harnessable for you all whatever there is in the Earth and in the skies” (45:13). Harnessing the forces of nature is a human attribute; keeping them within the confines of the divine permanent- value system is a humane (mo’min) attribute. This causes Man’s potential capabilities to manifest to incredible heights. The Quran refers to such men as ‘the elevated’ (3:138). They patiently struggle in the path of Islam with firm conviction keeping in mind Allah’s message; “Slacken not nor grieve; and you shall certainly have the upper hand, if you are true believers.” (3:139) This ambition to rise up was the driving force behind the phenomenal success of early Muslims.
The selfish and the greedy exploiters of men, alarmed by the situation, got to work against it. They knew it very clearly that the Muslims had to be dissuaded from the idea that Man can shape his own destiny. Therefore, their adversaries and opponents began – according to a well thought-out conspiracy --- to propagate the age-old belief of pre-decided destiny of Man. With the passage of time, the idea of pre-destiny of Man attained the sanctity of a religious dogma and, subsequently, an article of faith. The idea spread the notion that dominance and subjugation, status, wealth, happiness and tragedy, success and failure, etc. are all directly controlled by Allah. No human effort can alter individual or collective destiny pre-decided by Him. Therefore, one should be content with whatever state one is in. Consequently, Muslims, the shapers of the world’s destiny, have been reduced to a lethargic, inactive, unscientific-minded group
The focal point of the Quran is the Law of Returns --- every human action bears a result, sooner or later. That makes Man responsible for his actions. Human life is governed by these categories of laws:
1. Physical (laws of physics, chemistry, biology etc.) governing the human body.
2. Social laws enacted by government / society.
3. Permanent Values (moral & ethical laws) affecting the human personality.
In all the three areas, Quran hold man responsible for all actions, individual or collective. In 1 & 2 it may happen that one has to face consequences of someone else’s actions; for example, someone drowns in a river because somebody pushes one off a bridge (or the bridge gives way because of faulty workmanship); famine strikes because of bad administration; floods ravage an area; or war creates havoc, etc. Even in such cases every individual is responsible either directly or indirectly since an individual is a part / member of a society. A good harvest benefits even those not connected with farming at all. On the other hand, a bursting dam extends its damage even to those who have nothing at all to do with its construction or maintenance. This is why the Quran say: “Try to protect your society against a danger which is not restricted to the people responsible for it” (8:25). A society is nothing but a collection of individuals who have the potential of enforcing change. In point 3, however, every person bears consequences of one’s own action.
At the same time, all actions of Man, individual or collective, produce reactions. In fact, this is stated as the reason for the existence of this Universe: “Allah created the skies and the earth (the universe) rightfully to get everyone the result of his actions and to stop all wrongdoing” (45:22). Quran says: “Man can get only what he strives for” (53:39). Also, “Man is entitled to what he works for” (20:15). A just society is the one in which “no one’s efforts go wasted” (21:94) and that in which “your efforts bear results” (17:18-21). Suffice to say that “Everyone is mortgaged by his own actions” (74:38) and “Whatever one does produces results” (9:82; 9:95; 14:51; 16:96-97; 40:17). Elsewhere, the Quran states: “everyone shall get the result of one’s actions” (34:33). It is repeated in (7/147; 52/16; 56/24; 83/36) etc. Even Allah doesn’t interfere. Allah says to men: “Do whatever you will” (41:40), and the said verse goes on to say “Do whatever you wish. Surely, whatever you do (will bear a result, as it) is watched by Him” (41:40). That is: your are free to do whatever you wish but not free to alter the natural result of that action. Allah just keeps a watch: “Allah sees your actions” (2:237). “He knows them” (2:234). “No action can go unnoticed by Him”. (2:144), even “Allah knows what is in your hearts” 2:235). “Allah watches your actions” means that no action can escape the Law of Returns - “Allah surrounds whatever you do” (3:119).
The connection between an action and result is illustrated in the Quran at various places. An individual as well as a group of people who resolves to carryout the Divine Program, and works accordingly, sees plentiful fruit borne by their efforts: “O Convinced! If you help Allah, He will help you!” (47:7). The verse goes on to say: “And those who reject have failure and disappointment coming as their efforts do not bear fruit and are wasted”. This steadfastness brings divine support with the condition that the Convinced display perseverance and obedience of Allah’s laws (3:122–125). “Your one hundred shall triumph over two hundred of the opponents because ‘Allah is with the steadfast (8:66). Those who go against the divine system, Sura Bani Israel says: “When they disgraced, Allah (‘s Law of Return of Deeds) twisted their hearts,” (61:5). They (the children of Israel) were told that if they followed the last messenger of Allah, they would be absolved of their miserable life, but: ‘ If you return (to your previous attitude), We will (also) return (to giving you the same miserable life once again) 17:8. Allah’s law is: “Whoever turns away (from Him), is turned away” (51:9). Sura Tauba reports: “When they turned away, Allah turned their hearts away” (9:127).
Like individuals, this law applies to nations as well - “Your predecessor (nations of past) bore the consequences of what they did and you will have what you work for. You will not be queried about their actions” (2:134). As long a nation keeps on the right path (Allah’s way) it retains its glory. When it defies Allah’s Law, decline sets in. It enjoys a period of respite (within which there is a chance of correcting itself to retain the glory) before the decline and fall is complete. That nation is then replaced by another who has been following Allah’s way. “Every nation has an ajal (period of life) - (10:40), and Every ajal has a book (law) - (13:38). This Law is strictly enforced: “No nation can hurry or delay it.” (23:43). The period of respite can save a nation if it redeems and improves itself. Otherwise, it is destroyed. That’s why the Quran cites many historical evidences to illustrate its law of rise and fall of nations, and aptly terms it ”a known law”. (15:4). That is why Allah request us to travel through earth and learn from their history. This is “Allah’s way” which never changes (35:43). Early Muslims, who had, as a result of following Allah’s way achieved power and glory (24:55) were told:“If you refrain from struggle (for life and survival), you will face tragic misfortune -- another nation will replace you -- and you will be helpless. These are Allah’s measures.” (9:39), (11:57).
A tyrannical people, who exploit and suppress humanity, appear to go on prospering, is really passing through its ajal (the period of respite). Sura Namal Says: “ If (Allah had not provided the period of respite and) people were apprehended quickly after their unfairness, the Earth would have lost its inhabitants. Allah delays (the apprehension) till a certain period of respite (ajal). When that period expires, their destruction occurs at the specific time -- not a minute before or after” (16:61; also 35:45).
Note, our prophet had the mission to revolutionize mankind. He spent his life through back-breaking and frustrating struggles against all odds. Towards the twilight of his life he was naturally anxious about the result of his efforts. Allah responded thus: “Certainly, We can bring, what We promise, for you to see (but because everything happens according to set laws - Respite and Returns --), your responsibility is to spread (the message) and We have the responsibility of (its result according to set) calculations –“ (13:40).
Note, Allah, who is not willing to alter His set ‘calculations’ even for His messenger cannot be imagined to ‘do whatever and whenever He likes (whimsically)’. The entire universe and everything therein functions and operates by set ‘calculations’.
Hope this helps.
-
Salaam,
Thanks for all the posts. I note that Optomist, in your post, the Quranic verses quoted are in places off kilter. If I am not mistaken, are they from QXP by any chance?
I think that the traditional idea of pre-destiny is confusing to many people because they think that they have no control over their actions when clearly that is not the case from the Quran.
However to say that God has no involvement in their journey through life is not correct either.
God is not bound by time and is aware of our actions at any given point in our lives. He didn't make us do those actions but He is involved in the course our lives take and He does indeed present us with situations and thoughts to which we respond with free will.
22.40 attests the fact that had God not intervened, people would have torn down the synagogues.
If things were left to just cause and effect, then the whole Earth would be in a state of disorder and mischief (2.251)
He clearly disposes our affairs (13.2) Also we are told that He plots against those who plot which tells us that He is involved and will interject when He sees fit.
It is not simply a case of cause and effect with no involvement from God as we are told that we will be tested according to our individual faculties.
-
It is not simply a case of cause and effect with no involvement from God
Salamun alaikum,
Brother, you may have come across the following verse from Quran;
“Allah knows what is in the seas and on land. He knows every leaf that falls off a tree. He also knows even a grain in the darkness of the Earth. The truth is that each and every thing (in detail) is there in the clearly-set book.” (6:59)
The above verse clearly states the whole universe and whatever happens in the universe occurs according to firm and permanent laws designed before the creation of the universe, which is repeated in Quran at many places.
“No calamity comes to a country nor to yourselves which was not pre-written in a book before We created this world. Verily, this is easy for Allah so that you don’t grief over what you can’t get or boast over what He gave you. And Allah doesn’t like the boastful show-offs.” (57/22-23)
This law is strictly followed even in the case of rise and fall of nations.
“If (Allah had not provided the period of respite and) people were apprehended quickly after their unfairness, the Earth would have lost its inhabitants. Allah delays (the apprehension) till a certain period of respite (ajal). When that period expires, their destruction occurs at the specific time -- not a minute before or after” (16:61; also 35:45). This Law is strictly enforced: “No nation can hurry or delay it.” ( 23:43). The period of respite can save a nation if it redeems and improves itself. Otherwise, it is destroyed.
“And [bear in mind:] there is no community which We will not destroy before the Day of Resurrection, or chastise [even earlier, if it proves sinful,] with suffering severe: all this is laid down in Our decree.”(17:58). كَانَ ذَٰلِكَ فِي الْكِتَابِ مَسْطُورًا That is to say that standards have been set to all things in the universe and are there for anyone to read if they so wish.
Also, Quran says in 9:51 (conventionally translated as): “Say (to them), we shall not get but whatever Allah has already written down for us. Only He is our benefactor, and Muslims should rely on Allah alone.” The true meaning of it , however, is: (Exposition by Parwez) “Tell them that whatever happens to us is (not according to your misconceptions or ill-will) under the Law of Returns, Therefore, whatever occurs is inevitable according to that law and is unavoidable. We, the Muslims, are convinced fully of its validity and permanence. We are, therefore, not upset over whatever you might say.”
In the verse above quoted, قُلْ لَنْ يُصِيبَنَا إِلَّا مَا كَتَبَ اللَّهُ لَنَا, the Arabic word ‘Kataba’ literally means to write (here ‘has written or wrote). Since writing makes something permanent, it is used to refer to a permanent decision (law). This is supported by the well known verse about fasting 2:183. كُتِبَ عَلَيْكُمُ الصِّيَامُ كَمَا كُتِبَ عَلَى الَّذِينَ مِنْ قَبْلِكُمْ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَتَّقُونَ
When a law is set into operation, it does not mean that there is no involvement of Allah. It is a wrong understanding. In fact, it substantiates Allah’s strength where He formulates laws with the rule that those laws are unchangeable. Allah made laws through issuing orders before the creation of the universe which stand for all time. A law can be tested for its validity by the results it claims to produce, which is not so with an order or instruction. This does not do away with Allah. It only substantiates His strength and power. Allah doesn’t lose any power by binding himself in His own Laws. In fact, such a Allah is worthy of being Allah. He is a Allah who can be trusted because His laws are reliable. Despite having the power to do so, He doesn’t break laws.
“And there is not a thing but its (sources and) treasures (inexhaustible) are with Us; but We only send down thereof in due and ascertainable measures.”(15:21)
Even the verses you have quoted, Allah does not go contrary to his Decree (which is in a clear book/ record) before the creation of the universe. Allah's law operates through many ways. For instance, years of hard struggle had resulted in the Muslims’ own sovereign rule in the town of Yathrib (Medina). In the meantime, Muslims still trapped in Mecca came under increasing oppression at the hands of the Quresh. The oppressed Muslims prayed to Allah for their salvation. Allah said to the Muslims in Medina: “What has come upon you that you do not take up arms in Allah’s way? The weak men, women and children call out to US.: “O our Preserve! Take us out of this town of transgressors. Please send some helper and friend for us!” – (4:75). Clearly, Allah does not help the oppressed directly. He does it indirectly through other men.
-
Salaam,
Firstly, just to let everyone know if they don't already, that I am a sister :D
I am in agreement with you about the fact that all was arranged before the creation of the Universe. This however does not mean that God does not interject in our lives, it in fact confirms it because He knew of all the scenarios we would be in and what help we would ask of Him and He responded in kind.
When a law is set into operation, it does not mean that there is no involvement of Allah
I agree. Just because God decided what laws of nature to apply or suspend and also what He wanted to implement of His will on mankind BEFORE creating us, it does not mean that He is not shaping our paths.
We are not aware of what is to come next in our lives because we work linearly. So for example when we pray for something and a positive response is received, we naturally feel that God has responded to us in that moment, when in fact He had done so before time.
He is in the past, present and future so He is involved all the time, implementing not only the laws of nature, but also implementing His will that He decided on BEFORE creating us.
Even the verses you have quoted, Allah does not go contrary to his Decree (which is in a clear book/ record) before the creation of the universe.
Then we are in agreement? The fact that God for example, helping people directly /indirectly in their lives is already set in a decree, then that would be implemented to the letter in our lifetimes.
-
He is in the past, present and future so He is involved all the time, implementing not only the laws of nature, but also implementing His will that He decided on BEFORE creating us.
Wassalam,
There is a difference in our understanding in the sense, you assume God needs to “interfere” to involve and to implement the laws of nature and everything He decided before creating the universe. This is due to a misconception of the relationship between God and the world. You seem to compare the situation like a producer of a mechanical device and the need to involve every now to operate the device. The relationship between God and the world is different. Allah while creating the world, created also mechanism to continue to sustain and foster it without any outside interference based on concrete laws. That is why the world is amenable to human reason. As man ceaselessly explores the world and probes its nature, he brings to light hitherto hidden aspects of the laws that govern its working. Conceived in this way, the Divine Will is seen to be organically and essentially related to the world which literally exists and lives in God. The world, therefore, and all things in it are in direct and intimate contact with the Will of Allah every moment of their existence. Allah does not need to make outside intervention as you seem to suggest.
Just because God decided what laws of nature to apply or suspend and also what He wanted to implement of His will on mankind BEFORE creating us, it does not mean that He is not shaping our paths.
Allah does guide and shape our path. It is through revelation only. Man can work out his destiny by making full use of his intellectual powers granted by Allah and by seeking guidance in the Revelation. Nothing will be imposed upon man whimsically.
So for example when we pray for something and a positive response is received, we naturally feel that God has responded to us in that moment, when in fact He had done so before time.
Firstly, your example is not very clear to me. You have to explain to me using any specific case.
If you are saying that we sometimes receive outside positive response (unconnected with any laws/ rules/ cause and effect/ law of returns, etc) when we pray, it is not a correct understanding. In Islam prayer does not change the order of things. “Verily God will not change the condition of men, till they change what is in themselves.” Prayer purifies, enlightens and at last transforms those who submit themselves to it. The prayer benefits man to achieve his goals. The verbalization of desire is prayer. It creates motivation, hope and confidence. Prayer delivers us from two great enemies of freedom – doubt and fear. Prayer prepares one psychologically for the coming actions. Allama Iqbal said; “prayer ... is an expression of man’s inner yearning for response in the awful silence of the universe……..when a group of persons all animated by the same passion and concentrating on the same object join in prayer, such an association “multiplies the normal man’s power of perception, deepens his emotion and dynamizes his will to a degree unknown to him the privacy of his individuality.”
One can only wonder at the linguistic depth the pre-Islamic Arabic had reached. The simple nomads of the Jahiliya period before the prophet used to milk their animals but not quite, leaving a little in there to induce down more. That little amount of milk left was also called (الداعية) (the caller; the prayer). This illustrates prayer in the human context, i.e., the condition which spurs emotions into action for subsequent performance. For more reading please go through the following link.
http://www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/kt/kt_17.htm
-
Aslamaolaikum Optimist,
To be honest ..... I find your post extremely confusing. What do you mean by laws? laws of physics etc or Allah's will which is not dependent on His created laws??? :-\ I feel you are mixing the two up. Also it seems you are thinking of Allah linearly when Truth seeker I feel has clearly said that Allah does not work linearly.
Also please (if u dont mind) can you refrain from making bold statements such as 'this is a misconception' or 'it is not a correct understanding' and kindly prefix it with 'in my opinion or it is my view etc etc '. Sorry, but I feel this would make for better reading and not make you come across as rigid - undisputed authority on Islam - convinced of your position.
If you are an authority, then I am sorry, please can you refer me to your work... articles or website where I can get a better understanding of your views (you don't have to be a scholar but some sort of detailed work or analysis from verses would be nice). This will give your overall view about Islam and how you reached it and not the views of another scholar. At the moment, all I see is you continuously pushing forward another scholar's view which I have seen you do on other threads too.
Because if you are convinced of your position, nothing said here will change your mind and then this forum will only be used as for advertising your scholar's views. Your mind is made.
At the moment, I do not find your views persuasive and it does not deal with any of the verses that truth seeker raised. But don't get me wrong, I really do enjoy some of your posts as well ;D My two cents ....... Thanx. 8)
-
To be honest ..... I find your post extremely confusing. What do you mean by laws? laws of physics etc or Allah's will which is not dependent on His created laws??? :-\
Wassalam,
I will make comments for your above main question now.
You seem to assume Allah's will in the created world is not based on any rules or laws. If I give you answer in one statement it would be; Allah's will in the created world is nothing but Allah's Law. Before explaining this statement with support of verses from Quran I want to make a comment on one point. There are two worlds of Allah - Amr and Khalq . Khalq is the created world and Amr is whatever beyond. Allah’s domain of Amr relates to creation from nothingness, where He is NOT bound by any laws. This is exclusive to Allah and Allah alone and there are no binding laws . Allah does whatever he wants. However, in the ‘Domain of ‘Khalq’, Allah’s will is bound by laws (33:38). Allah set a standard to everything’ (65:3). The truth is that each and every thing (in detail) is there in the clearly-set book.” (6:59). In the physical world of creation it is cause and effect and the social world of humans it is law of returns, law of respite and Law of Requital. Every action recoils on the doer. Right action has consequences which are beneficial to man and enrich and strengthen his self. Wrong actions invariably weaken and debase him.
I will show you evidence from Quran itself to prove that Allah's will in the created law is nothing but Allah's Law;
1. Allah attributes many incidents to Himself because they occur according to His Law of Returns. For instance, “When they disgraced, Allah (‘s Law of Return of Deeds) twisted their hearts,” (61:5). “When they turned away, Allah turned their hearts away” (9:127). “When they went crooked, Allah crooked their hearts” (His law of Returns did it) – (61:5; 51:9; 9:127). The same is applicable for verses like “Allah sealed their hearts”. It happens due to Law of returns. Let us see a verse that clarifies the phrase “Allah has sealed their hearts” . It says: “No, it’s not like that! But (the reality is that) their hearts get rusted because of their own deeds! (83:14).
2. “O Messenger! The dissenters pester you tauntingly to bring upon them the dreaded destruction. Tell them that it not upto you (the messenger). Say: ‘I am not empowered (even) to hurt or benefit myself outside the bounds of laws established by Allah” (10:49)., Also: “there is a law for everything. When the period of respite is over, the (destruction) comes right on time” (10:49).
3. The prophet had to spent his life striving in the cause of Allah and naturally he was anxious about the result of his efforts. Allah’s comment was; “Certainly, We can bring, what We promise, for you to see (but because everything happens according to set laws - Respite and Returns --), your responsibility is to spread (the message) and We have the responsibility of (its result according to set) calculations –“ (13:40).
4. ‘Man can have no knowledge of things except for whatever (Allah) wills” (2:255). It should be taken as to mean that Man can obtain knowledge
through laws already established by Allah.
5. “And We keep it (the fetus) in the wombs till a declared (fixed) period as We desire –“ (22:5). Obviously, ‘as we desire doesn’t mean that Allah decides the duration of each fetus individually. The entire process is subject to natural biological laws. Therefore ‘as We desire (ما نشاء ) means: according to (the law) which Allah has already willed (established).
6. An incidence regarding human birth mentioned in the Quran may be relevantly interesting, i. e., the Messenger Zakariya begetting Yahya (John). Zakariya was quite old and his wife was infertile and, naturally, did not expect to have children. Therefore, he was doubtfully surprised when given the news of a forthcoming son. Allah’s reply in verse 3:39 which is traditionally translated thus: “Allah does whatever He wills”. This does not mean that Allah arbitrarily decided to give Zakariya a child. It all happened under natural medical laws – he was still fertile and his wife’s deficiency was removed (21:90), so they had a child, perfectly according to natural laws.
7. Sura Baqara says that Allah, through His Messengers, sent guidance to mankind advising them against bloodshed. But people would resume mutual killings and Allah says “If Allah had willed it so, they would not have killed…….. (2:253). Allah does not exercise compulsion on men. They are free to choose their path.
I will look forward to your comments for the above before explaining any further.
Kind regards
Optimist
-
I agree with created laws. But I also think you assume too much. You impose this created law on His will and limit Allah which I feel is wrong.
Also it is not correct in my view that you use your own chosen translations with words such as 'laws established by Allah" to prove your point.
In the following verse, can you prove to me how in your understanding Allah 'stopped' people from pulling down monasteries, churches and synagogues. Remember, it was the will of the people to do this. How did Allah impose His will to stop them when it was their wish to do so?
"..........And had there not been Allah's repelling some people by others, certainly there would have been pulled down cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques in which Allah's name is much remembered; and surely Allah will help him who helps His cause; most surely Allah is Strong, Mighty...." 22:40 ............Salam
-
In the following verse, can you prove to me how in your understanding Allah 'stopped' people from pulling down monasteries, churches and synagogues. Remember, it was the will of the people to do this. How did Allah impose His will to stop them when it was their wish to do so?
"..........And had there not been Allah's repelling some people by others, certainly there would have been pulled down cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques in which Allah's name is much remembered; and surely Allah will help him who helps His cause; most surely Allah is Strong, Mighty...." 22:40 ............Salam
Salamun alaikum,
In short, Allah will never ever let loose a rebellious force forever. Human history is full of fight between the forces of good and forces of evil, upholders of justice and its opponents. This fight between the two forces is a natural struggle culminating ultimately in the victory of truth. Look at this verse;
“So wage war against them. Allah will chastise them through your instrumentality, and put them to shame by giving you victory over them - victory which will relieve you of the fear and anxiety on account of your enemies. Despite all this, the doors of repentance are still open to them. This is how Allah’s Law operates. He knows and is Wise” (9:14-15)
This is how it happens. Allah does not directly interfere. It is through the medium of others who are upholders of Justice Allah “stops” the criminals and the transgressors. See how Allah beautifully explains the situation in another verse;
“You had slain your enemies but indeed it was Allah who slew them because you were fighting in His cause. When you sent forth a shaft of arrows it was not you who did it but Allah (Allah’s programme in the world of human beings is carried out through them) (8:17-18)
Please note how Allah explains the situation as if Allah Himself is killing and sending forth shaft of arrows! THINK
And as I explained in one of my previous post, when Muslims in Mekkah were persecuted Allah instructed the Muslims in Medina: “What has come upon you that you do not take up arms in Allah’s way? The weak men, women and children call out to US.: “O our Preserve! Take us out of this town of transgressors. Please send some helper and friend for us!” – (4:75).
Clearly, Allah does not help the oppressed directly. He does it indirectly through other men
Kind regards,
Abdul Samad
-
Sorry, but this does not answer my question at all.
No matter how you look at 9:14-15, I feel it proves my point NOT yours. Allah clearly intervened and changed the outcome. Even if He uses one people against another, He is exerting His will to change the outcome at a particular point.
Whether He uses others or not is NOT THE ISSUE. Please don't confuse the matter. This is something I feel you often do you in your line of thinking and your posts.
It is Allah's active involvement and Him changing the outcome which is the issue here. Just like when Allah interfered and responded to Zakariyaah's prayer for a child (Surah Mariam). I feel you keep missing the point.
Now back to my example again .............. at the point where someone wants to pull down a church, synagogue etc, How does Allah change the course of action? Who He uses is not the point here. If He can change the course of an outcome, He has interfered. He didn't change His mind on the spot, but He knew something will take place and guided a course of action so that the matter could be stopped. Thanks Saba
-
Salaam,
Optimist, I think that if you take what Saba is saying regarding Zakariyyah's child further, God responded to Zakkariyah's request and his barren wife gave birth.
God did not respond instantly to this prayer. HE KNEW ABOUT THE REQUEST BEFORE HE CREATED THE UNIVERSE and responded accordingly by granting the couple a child. He put the plan in action BEFORE the request was even made because He is not bound by a linear time scale as we are.
We always act according to our volition to given situations. However at times, specific situations have been put forth by God ( who again designed them prior to our existence) in order to test us.
For example, the fish were found to be plentiful only on the Sabbath. God planned that situation but the peoples' response to it was ENTIRELY their own. They exercised their free will fully to a situation that God had presented to them, but had set out in His decree aforetime.
Thanks
-
Sorry, but this does not answer my question at all.
No matter how you look at 9:14-15, I feel it proves my point NOT yours. Allah clearly intervened and changed the outcome. Even if He uses one people against another, He is exerting His will to change the outcome at a particular point.
Whether He uses others or not is NOT THE ISSUE. Please don't confuse the matter. This is something I feel you often do you in your line of thinking and your posts.
Salam,
Wherein 9:14-15 Allah says Allah intervened. Even in the previous verse 9:13 Allah motivates the believers to fight the enemies.
“Just think - what hesitation could there possibly be in fighting against those who break their oaths so frequently, expelled the Rasool and attacked you first? Do you fear them? If you are true Momineen you should fear only the consequences of disobeying Allah’s laws”. 9:13
Just look at the following verse where Allah analyse the strength of Muslims in relation to their enemies (which according to your analysis not needed)
“Now Allah has lightened your (task), for He knows that there is weakness in you. So if there are of you a hundred steadfast persons, they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a thousand of you, they shall overcome two thousand with the Leave of Allah.”(8:66)
In the very previous verse 8:66 Allah had stated, in the ideal situation 20 Muslims can overpower 200 and 100 can overpower 2000. If there is intervention there is no need for this analysis. Whatever be the number of Muslims, they will surely overpower any number of enemies. In this regard, battle of Uhud is very important. The Muslims received severe setback. Quran says about this incident; “Afterwards, when you pondered upon the setback with ‘ How did it happen?’, Allah’s reply to that was: “Tell, (them O Prophet!), that was from your own selves.” (3:165).
Why Muslims got setback in Uhud? Why Allah did not intervene? When victory comes Allah intervenes and when suffers loses Allah does not!! Afterwards see how Allah comforts the righteous after the war: “Why worry over your problems? Your opponents also face them” (4:104). “These universal laws apply to all mankind” (3:139).
The success of early Muslims was due to their hard work and great effort in Allah’s way and they were even warned;
“Remember, if you do not march forth Allah will certainly chastise you with a serious chastisement - that He will replace you by another people (47:38)
Even if He uses one people against another, He is exerting His will to change the outcome at a particular point.
This is not a valid argument. You are mixing revelation and guidance from Allah with intervention. This is not the topic under discussion.
It is Allah's active involvement and Him changing the outcome which is the issue here. Just like when Allah interfered and responded to Zakariyaah's prayer for a child (Surah Mariam). I feel you keep missing the point.
Quran says Zakariya's wife's disease was cured which is a proof that this is in accordance with natural law only.
Now back to my example again .............. at the point where someone wants to pull down a church, synagogue etc, How does Allah change the course of action? Who He uses is not the point here.
You are going too literal understanding of the verse. Allah did not say Allah will come for rescue every time a mosque, church or synagogue is demolished. The verse means Allah will never ever let loose a rebellious force forever. The destruction of an rebellious force is inevitable and it is natural law. The fight between right and wrong is an ongoing process every point of time. A rebellious force may appear to prosper at a point of time, which is actually going through a period of respite. When the period of respite is over, the destruction comes right on time (16:61). Even a nation can even hurry or delay it (23/43).
If He can change the course of an outcome, He has interfered
You have to re-read what I posted earlier. Well, Quran contains so many verses that motivate Muslims to take up arms to protect innocent women and children who cry for help, verses that psychologically prepare them to face their enemies, verses instructing and advising Muslims not to fear their enemies but to fear Allah alone, verses encouraging them to prepare for war with all means, verses strongly warning Muslims not to turn back during battle unless it is a war tactic. If you are telling all these as intervention from Allah, I have no comments.
He didn't change His mind on the spot, but He knew something will take place and guided a course of action so that the matter could be stopped.
Can you tell me a scenario or an example (even imaginary)?
Kind regards,
Abdul Samad
-
Dear Abdul Samad (Nice of u to share your name)
Thanks for the post, but once again ... I find you are not answering the question and I find that you are evading it!
Once again, please explain how at the point where someone wants to pull down a church, synagogue etc, How did Allah change the course of action? Your response " The fight between right and wrong is an ongoing process every point of time" is poor and a convenient way out.
If He can change the course of an outcome, He has interfered. Like I said before, He didn't change His mind on the spot, but He knew something will take place and guided a course of action so that the matter could be stopped.
Similarly when Musa (pbh) asked for Aaron (pbh) to be sent with him, Allah answered his prayer (20:36). How do you explain that?????? Please do not tell me that this is a riddle too!
Please don't keep confusing the matter and using the same accusation about literal reading of the Quran. If you want to read the Quran as riddles then it is up to you - please don't impose this on others! It seems you do not want to accept what the Quran is saying and are changing the meanings. You keep saying to me THINK - Please can YOU also THINK!....
Also you say:
This is not a valid argument. You are mixing revelation and guidance from Allah with intervention. This is not the topic under discussion.
This is a very VALID argument!!! Why is not valid - because you say so???? or because you can't answer it using your method of thinking? Even if Allah uses one people against another, He is exerting His will to change the outcome at a particular point. This has nothing to do with mixing revelation and guidance.
Also you say:
Quran says Zakariya's wife's disease was cured which is a proof that this is in accordance with natural law only.
What are you talking about br. Abdul Samad???? You make a claim that the Quran says that Zakarya's wife had a disease. ASTAGHFURULLAH Where does the Quran say this? Where ?????
Please don't attribute words to Allah which he never said!!!! Astagfurullah.
The Quran only says she was barren! (19.5) unless you want to make it riddles again or give new meanings to the word! Thanks - Saba
-
Salaam,
To make it easier to explain what I was saying earlier about God not being time bound, please see this illustration :
http://quransmessage.com/charts%20and%20illustrations/time%20and%20space/timespace%20FM2.htm
-
Salamun Alaikum brother Abdul and all,
May I suggest that we all share our opinions with an open mind and with continuing respect. If we are only going to present our opinions as "I am right and you are wrong no matter what", then this will not be a sincere discussion to understand the best argument but an attempt to outwit the opponent and the discourse will inevitably digress.
Also brother Abdul, please may I kindly suggest that you refrain from propounding the views of Ghulam Parwez / Tolu-e-Islam indiscriminately on this forum. There is clearly a difference of understanding that many forum readers retain to his work (which has already been discussed on this forum before) albeit there are other areas of agreement. He was undoubtedly a great thinker who deserves appreciation like other great thinkers past and present, but no ones work is beyond criticism as you will no doubt agree. It is also clear that many take a literal meaning of many passages where you clearly do not and this will only increasingly become a source of tension on this forum.
Also, please see my take on a somewhat related matter in Q&A format where I noted verse 7:54 of the Quran reading 'istawa ala 'larsh' (ascended the throne) in context to the establishment of God creating the universe and the laws and taking power over it, and its elucidation in verse 13:2 along with the term 'yudabbiru l-amra' (governing / disposing the affairs).
This gives us a strong indication of 'active involvement' but not from within the 'created' time and space scope as commonly understood. Please do try to understand this point with an open mind. The latter point is often missed by those who see God's intervention from a 'linear' human perspective. God's intervention cannot be understood from a human linear dimension. Truth seeker has already kindly shared my illustration which makes this point and an accompanying Q&A can also be read below.
Predestination, Afflictions and Trials
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=256.msg750#msg750
Regards,
Joseph.
-
Salamun alaikum,
I have noted brother Joseph Islam's comments with respect. I have some questions (specific to the comments and articles only) which I will ask later. In this post I will state some comments for br. Saba remarks.
What are you talking about br. Abdul Samad???? You make a claim that the Quran says that Zakarya's wife had a disease. ASTAGHFURULLAH Where does the Quran say this? Where ?????
Please don't attribute words to Allah which he never said!!!! Astagfurullah.
The Quran only says she was barren! (19.5)
Firstly, I kindly request you not to make too many exclamatory remarks; even I myself thought I made a big error. You can simply ask me where Allah says so in Quran. Please read verse 21:90; “We cured his wife's (Barrenness) for him”
Once again, please explain how at the point where someone wants to pull down a church, synagogue etc, How did Allah change the course of action? Your response " The fight between right and wrong is an ongoing process every point of time" is poor and a convenient way out
Very politely I tell you again, you cannot take this verse as an example of Allah's “intervention” in the affairs of the world, unless you can prove an “intervention” from Allah (linear or otherwise) against free-will of mankind without any revelation and guidance, against cause an effect, law of returns and law of requital. Show me something miraculous happening that prevents pulling down mosque, churches and synagogue whenever anyone or any group of people intend to do so. If nothing miraculous is happening there is no substance in your claim of “intervention”. It is nothing but Allah’s law established in the universe where Allah’s Will encompasses everything, even falling a leaf from a tree, where everything could be termed as an "intervention" from Allah since everything operates based on Allah's law establisehd. Allah intervenes indirectly only through the system established and such intervention is termed as Allah's own act (for instance, the verse I quoted earlier where Allah says "when you killed the enemies it was not you who killed, but Allah, when you threw the arrows it was not you who threw, but Allah) 8:17-18
If He can change the course of an outcome, He has interfered. Like I said before, He didn't change His mind on the spot, but He knew something will take place and guided a course of action so that the matter could be stopped.
This is a vague statement. Again, prove to me Allah goes against free-will of mankind or make any changes to cause and effect and law of returns when he “stops” pulling down mosque and churches. Otherwise, you are agreeing with my point of discussion.
Similarly when Musa (pbh) asked for Aaron (pbh) to be sent with him, Allah answered his prayer (20:36). How do you explain that?????? Please do not tell me that this is a riddle too!
This is what I was saying. You are mixing up the issue of revelation and guidance from Allah with intervention. How can the request of Moses to strengthen his mission with the help of his brother Aaron and subsequent approval from Allah becomes an “intervention” from Allah? It would be an intervention if the help is given against free will of Aaron. Based on your argument, each and every instruction from Allah in the Quran is an “intervention” by Allah.
-
Aslamaolaikum brother Joseph
I too note your comments with respect.... I did not intend to cause any friction ...so i apologize for that if it came across like that on my part.
Re: brother Abdul's comment again - I do not agree with your understanding of 21:90. I feel you are looking at verses and interpreting them in a way to suit your understanding.
You mentioned 21:90 “We cured his wife's (Barrenness) for him”. I have checked the word 'aslaha' and it has the meaning of to put a matter right, to set something aright for something or reform and would mean here to adjust something. It does not mean 'cure'. She had no disease. Her body was adjusted (from barrenness of old age) so that she could have a baby. She was not cured from a disease.
Please see the way the Quran uses expressions to remove an ailment or cures someone from something (21:84).
Zakaariya's wife did not have a disease. Her body was adjusted and this was intervention after the prayer was made.
Also please please stop calling me brother!! :o I am a sister !!! 8) 8) Saba
-
Salam,
Even you have said "to set something aright for something". In verse 7:190 Allah used swaleha to mean a child which is perfect in every way. In verse 24:32 Allah says: wus swaleheena min ibadikum wa ima-ikum; means slaves and slave girls who have the capacity to get married. In chapter Yusuf, the brothers of Yusuf discussed among themselves that their father’s entire attention is towards Yusuf and his brother; if Yusuf is murdered or exiled then this imbalance can be removed: Wa takoonu min ba’dehi qauman swaleheen: 12:9. Here swaleheen makes clear that it means for imbalance or inequities to be removed. Now think what does it mean wa aslahna lahu zaujahu (21:90). It means Allah removed the fault from his wife which was a bar to her giving birth to a child....it is nothing but "cure", "to set something aright for something".
I am not in any argument on this point further.
Kind regards
-
Salamun alaikum brother Joseph Islam,
In your reply to “Reader question”, under the following link you mentioned above, you wrote under the title UNDERSTANDING OUR TRIALS; We will be led into situations and afflictions in two main ways. (1) Some that our own hands cause (Cause and effect) (2) Those that are specifically created to test us.
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=256.msg750#msg750
You have then provided verses from Quran for the above two categories. I have no comment for the first category you have mentioned. I request you to reconsider the verses you mentioned as “afflictions specifically created to test us”, whether there is possibility that these “created afflictions” are natural afflictions the people who strive in the path of Allah will have to face before they achieve their goal. I provide below the verses you used to categorise "afflictions spcificaally created". I provide also against each verses the exposition by Parwez for these verses. I would like to know your comments for the exposition of Parwez.
003.186
"Ye shall certainly be tried and tested in your wealth and in yourselves; and ye shall certainly hear much that will grieve you, from those who received the Book before you and from those who worship many gods. But if ye persevere patiently, and guard against evil, then that will be a determining factor in all affairs"
(Parwez) 3:186 O Jama’at-ul-Momineen, you will continue to have confrontations with your opponents resulting in the loss of your possessions and your lives (2/155). In addition you will also have to hear much from those who were granted revelation before your time and Mushrikeen which will be very painful to you. If you remain steadfast and adhere to Allah’s Laws it will reflect your high resolve.
008.028 "And know that your wealth and your children are but a trial; and that it is God with Whom lies your highest reward"
(Parwez) (8:27) Do not betray the Divine Order or the trusts reposed in you. You know what the result of such betrayal would be. (4/58).
(8:28) Such betrayal is motivated by love of wealth and children but remember that in such a case these things become a fitna whereas the recompense bestowed by Allah is generous and more valuable (9/23-24, 25/74, 64/14-15).
002.155
"And surely We will test you with something of fear and hunger, and loss of wealth and lives and the fruits (of your toil), but give glad tidings to those who patiently persevere"
(Parwez) 2:155-156 This struggle will provide you with many opportunities to test your own mettle. You may encounter wars and massacres and also be confronted with scarcity of food and loss of life and property or with devastation of fields and orchards. Such ordeals may take place but ultimately those who remain steadfast and do not waver in their commitment to establish Allah’s System, will be successful. They meet every challenge saying: “We have dedicated ourselves to the establishment of the Divine System and come what may we will continue advancing towards that goal.”
002.214
'Or do you think that you shall enter the Garden (of bliss) without such (trials) as came to those who passed away before you? they encountered suffering and adversity, and were so shaken in spirit that even the Messenger and those of faith who were with him cried: "When will the help of God come?" Ah! Indeed, the help of God is (always) near!"
(Parwez) 2: 214 O Jama’at-ul-Momineen, the ideal social system which will be free of dissension will not be created without great hardship and difficulty. Those who established this system earlier, met with such formidable obstacles that they cried out: “When will our efforts bear fruit, O Allah?” (3/141, 9/16, 13/40, 29/2, 33/10). You will also have to confront similar obstructions, but be sure that your efforts will be rewarded as were theirs.
047.031
'And We shall try you until We make evident those who strive among you and persevere in patience; and We shall test your affairs"
(Parwez) 47:31. If We were to adopt any ‘out of the way' means (there was no need of any clash or struggle. But) We do want this clash to take place so that the Mujahideen amongst you can stand out; and it would become evident to what extent they are steadfast. In other words these are the ones who are ready to sacrifice everything for the sake of establishing this system; and face all challenges with fortitude and steadfastness? We want that everything about each of you should be revealed to the public (and the whole world should see the wonderful change this Eiman has brought within you and how you have changed for the better).
Don't you think theses are natural afflictions the people who strive in the path of Allah will have to face before they achieve their goal? I would like to know how do you view the exposition by Parwez.
Thanks & kind regards
Abdul Samad
-
Salam,
Even you have said "to set something aright for something". In verse 7:190 Allah used swaleha to mean a child which is perfect in every way. In verse 24:32 Allah says: wus swaleheena min ibadikum wa ima-ikum; means slaves and slave girls who have the capacity to get married. In chapter Yusuf, the brothers of Yusuf discussed among themselves that their father’s entire attention is towards Yusuf and his brother; if Yusuf is murdered or exiled then this imbalance can be removed: Wa takoonu min ba’dehi qauman swaleheen: 12:9. Here swaleheen makes clear that it means for imbalance or inequities to be removed. Now think what does it mean wa aslahna lahu zaujahu (21:90). It means Allah removed the fault from his wife which was a bar to her giving birth to a child....it is nothing but "cure", "to set something aright for something".
I am not in any argument on this point further.
Kind regards
Salam. Your argument is wrong. Plain and simply wrong,. You have not proved that she had a disease. There is no disease. Even in the examples you have quoted, the best meaning in context of 21:90 is she was put right so she could bear a child. But as you don't want to accept that, I find you are purposely twisting the meanings to get what you want to read in the verse.
Sad. But true. Sadly, end of argument for me too and you have shown me that your method of analysis is weak and your mind is made up. I mean this in a nice but honest way, but I find it pointless discussing certain matters with you. Thanks...Saba
-
Dear brother Abdul,
Salamun Alaikum.
Despite my clear sincere repeated requests on this forum and to you in an email (which was initially posted) for you not to consistently propound Parwez's exposition as a defence for your arguments or your questions, I sadly find you repeatedly doing the same.
Also brother Abdul, please may I kindly suggest that you refrain from propounding the views of Ghulam Parwez / Tolu-e-Islam indiscriminately on this forum. There is clearly a difference of understanding that many forum readers retain to his work (which has already been discussed on this forum before) albeit there are other areas of agreement. He was undoubtedly a great thinker who deserves appreciation like other great thinkers past and present, but no ones work is beyond criticism as you will no doubt agree. It is also clear that many take a literal meaning of many passages where you clearly do not and this will only increasingly become a source of tension on this forum.
Email
Whilst I respect your decision to align your understanding of the Quran to Ghulam Parwez's interpretations in many areas, I have already shared my position that I do not agree with his allegorical interpretations of so many Quranic passages which I feel have no Quranic warrant (for reasons already exhausted).
There is obviously a difference in the way Ghulam Parwez interprets the Quran rendering many passages allegorical and his method of word analysis regardless of context which I strongly disagree with. Any such discourses held with such are core contention would inevitably prove fruitless and will amount to nothing but flogging a dead horse.
Therefore, with this in mind, I will not be responding to your last post and if in future such a post reappears, it will be removed from this forum. I feel I have been very tolerant hitherto and have already exhausted from my perspective, much of the weaknesses in Parwez's methodology and humbly afforded you a lot of time in related discussions.
This forum should not be used as an advertising platform to peddle another scholar's views indiscriminately and exclusively especially when academic differences have been made clear. You can bring your arguments with 'translations' but interpolations such as Parwez's work or any similar expositions used as a basis for the argument will be curtailed.
Regards,
Joseph.
-
Dear brother Abdul,
Salamun Alaikum.
Despite my clear sincere repeated requests on this forum and to you in an email (which was initially posted) for you not to consistently propound Parwez's exposition as a defence for your arguments or your questions, I sadly find you repeatedly doing the same.
Also brother Abdul, please may I kindly suggest that you refrain from propounding the views of Ghulam Parwez / Tolu-e-Islam indiscriminately on this forum. There is clearly a difference of understanding that many forum readers retain to his work (which has already been discussed on this forum before) albeit there are other areas of agreement. He was undoubtedly a great thinker who deserves appreciation like other great thinkers past and present, but no ones work is beyond criticism as you will no doubt agree. It is also clear that many take a literal meaning of many passages where you clearly do not and this will only increasingly become a source of tension on this forum.
Email
Whilst I respect your decision to align your understanding of the Quran to Ghulam Parwez's interpretations in many areas, I have already shared my position that I do not agree with his allegorical interpretations of so many Quranic passages which I feel have no Quranic warrant (for reasons already exhausted).
There is obviously a difference in the way Ghulam Parwez interprets the Quran rendering many passages allegorical and his method of word analysis regardless of context which I strongly disagree with. Any such discourses held with such are core contention would inevitably prove fruitless and will amount to nothing but flogging a dead horse.
Therefore, with this in mind, I will not be responding to your last post and if in future such a post reappears, it will be removed from this forum. I feel I have been very tolerant hitherto and have already exhausted from my perspective, much of the weaknesses in Parwez's methodology and humbly afforded you a lot of time in related discussions.
This forum should not be used as an advertising platform to peddle another scholar's views indiscriminately and exclusively especially when academic differences have been made clear. You can bring your arguments with 'translations' but interpolations such as Parwez's work or any similar expositions used as a basis for the argument will be curtailed.
Regards,
Joseph.
Aslamaolaikum Br. Joseph,
I follow alot of other forums as well including the ourbeacon forum now and again. If brother Abdul Samad is the same brother that has written on the ourbeacon forum then his feelings towards Parwez are very personal which explains why he consistently pushes one view on this forum. I would also question objectivity.
Salamun Alaikum,
On a BLESSED DAY, I accidently came across the writings of Allama Parwez and it has now completely changed my life. He is now close to my life and I love this man After Allah and His Messengers......more than I love my family.
http://ourbeaconforum.com/cgi-bin/bbs60x/webbbs_config.pl/page/1/md/read/id/314123119179704
If I am mistaken then I am sorry but if true, the quote says a lot ...... Saba
-
Salamun alaikum,
It is bit surprising for me. Even before I read the exposition from Parwez, I had seen even traditional scholars explaining this in this line of analysis. It is not a new finding by Parwez. I posted translation from Parwez just to differentiate the two understanding. Please look at the following verse;
(Yousuf Ali Translation) “[Remember what you felt] when they came upon you from above you and from below you, and when [your] eyes became dim and [your] hearts came up to [your] throats, and [when] most conflicting thoughts about God passed through your minds. [for] there and then were the believers tried, and shaken with a shock severe.” (33:10-11)
I can quote for you many such verses. I still do not know why you are insisting to interpret those verses in a particular line only.
Anyhow, kindly delete my previous post, this post and also your last post since I (not very intentionally disregarding your warning) brought up Parwez in the discussion. Please.
Thanks & kind regards
Abdul Samad
-
Dear Optimist.
As brother Joseph has mentioned, any future posts of this nature will be removed. Therefore the current thread will remain especially when other members have taken their time to contribute to the discussion and have responded to your post (Unless all parties are happy to have their posts removed by specific request).
Thanks for your consideration.
QM Moderators
-
If I am mistaken then I am sorry but if true, the quote says a lot ...... Saba
Please delete this post also. I only want to convey a message (I do not want this post to remain forever in the forum)
Salam,
You are not mistaken. It was myself who posted that comment. I was born and brought up in a traditional family, in a traditional society. Traditional learning and living in a traditional society had almost sealed my heart. It was the books from Parwez that showed me real Islam.
I am sure Parwez will be angry at me if he is alive today for concentrating on issues not related to the main teachings of the Quran. These are not his major contribution and points of discussion. Even he was humbly stating those who do not agree with him on this point just ignore this point since it does not have any major bearing in the main aspects of Islam. I have to say sorry to Parwez also, and most importantly to Allah for getting involved in this discussion more than needed. One of the reasons for getting more involved on this topic was, some of the topics here were related to this subject. I will avoid posting any comment on this topic and also from promoting any special views of parvez in this forum again (never assume all whatever I have posed in this forum belong to parwez).
Kind regards
Abdul Samad
-
It was the books from Parwez that showed me real Islam.
Dear Brother Abdul,
Salamun Alaikum.
As a sincere brother, please allow me to with respect share some views, if I humbly may. It was not 'Parwez' or his books that showed you real Islam. Any truth that you may have received was only from God. We are merely guided past these works so that our precepts are challenged and layered wisdom learnt. These should be seen as a 'stepping stone', a 'watering place' to seek wisdom and to move on if and when the time is right. Sadly, not once in the post did I note you thank God for having guided you.
I recently made a post on my Facebook page which I would like to humbly and sincerely share with you in light of Saba's post.
LOVE OF SCHOLARS
OVERTLY appreciating past scholars is a slippery slope to idolising personalities. It can also render impotent one's ability to critically discern their works.
Scholarly opinions should remain what they are, 'learned opinions' of FALLIBLE humans. They should not necessarily be equated with truth. God is ultimate truth and we should always remain consciously 'receptive' of His guidance which can often lead us past these learned personalities of the past and present as a TEACHING EXERCISE to build on our growing knowledge base.
It is simply a case of 'learning'.
If we stop to admire the works of an individual for too long, there remains an inherent risk that a 'gradual process' of learning can turn into 'static submission'. This would be an evident loss for it is here that we subconsciously can sever the link of remaining recipient to God's guidance and tacitly become reliant on the works of humans.
"...I hope that my Lord will guide me ever closer (even) than this to the right road." (18:24)
You are a great asset to this forum and I look forward to your own thoughts on various matters.
With utmost respect,
Regards,
Joseph.
-
LOVE OF SCHOLARS
OVERTLY appreciating past scholars is a slippery slope to idolising personalities. It can also render impotent one's ability to critically discern their works.
Scholarly opinions should remain what they are, 'learned opinions' of FALLIBLE humans. They should not necessarily be equated with truth. God is ultimate truth and we should always remain consciously 'receptive' of His guidance which can often lead us past these learned personalities of the past and present as a TEACHING EXERCISE to build on our growing knowledge base.
It is simply a case of 'learning'.
If we stop to admire the works of an individual for too long, there remains an inherent risk that a 'gradual process' of learning can turn into 'static submission'. This would be an evident loss for it is here that we subconsciously can sever the link of remaining recipient to God's guidance and tacitly become reliant on the works of humans.
"...I hope that my Lord will guide me ever closer (even) than this to the right road." (18:24)
Salamun alaikum,
I complete agree with your view regading blindly following scholars and their opinion. It used to do so earlier when I was not very much concerned about religion. I was taught to trust Bukhari, Muslim and all other past scholars and not to critically study their works. If I had continued the habit, I would not have known the truth.
While agreeing with your point, I hope you will positively appreciate the following points.
I believe, if we want to propogate the true message of the Quran among the public at a wider level, we need to have the basic need to rely on a great scholar who have done extensive research on various subjects based on Quran. The reason is simple, the first question a traditional minded person would be asking (especially when we are not a scholar and do not have great talent) to show him any great scholar who hold this view contrary to the general traditional view. The scholar's books and articles must cover all aspects of Quran, including a proper Quran translation, instead of the available Quran translations, written to conform the traditional understandings. It is through the medium of books and articles only we can promote the true message of the Quran. Certain differences of opinoin of issues that are not related to the main teachings of the Quran should be ignored.
At individual level, the possibility to spread the Quranic message is limited without the support of a great scholar. I believe Parwez's books are a blessing for people who who thread the path of Quran. It is needed to be ensured that his books are properly safeguarded and promoted (who will promote these invaluable books otherwise?). Insha Allah, I am in the process of translating two of his books in to my mother tongue with the help of an expert for publication and plan to undertake more later. My sincere with now to create another Parwez somewhere in the world who can lead a Resurgent Islam. It is the reason why I chose the name "Resurgent Islam" (www.resurgentislam.com) for my website, mainly containing the works of Parwez (some of his major works not yet uploaded). You will find also a small contribution from myself, a work I edited, named; "Hadiths: An Objective Analysis".
I have a living example for me to get convinced that relying on a great scholar like Parwez is the way to attract people to the true message of Quran. Recently a new colleague joined in the department where I work who was a completely a traditional Muslim, studied in a well known Arabic college run by a very traditional Sunni group in India. He is highly knowledgeable in Arabic literature (his job is related to Arabic/ English translation activity). Slowly I started to have discussion with him at every oppurtunity about different Quranic verses. I introduced to him Lughat-ul-Quran by Parwez and, alhamdulillah, it is his favourite reference book now. Due to this book he has now started to appreciate the need to to follow Quran alone. I have a few people now already with me and I could not have made them attracted to the Quranic message without the works from Parwez.
By they way, you said "Sadly, not once in the post did I note you thank God for having guided you"!. This statement brought tears in my eyes. Only Allah knows how much I think of Him every day.
Alhamdulillah always
Kind regards
Abdul Samad
-
By they way, you said "Sadly, not once in the post did I note you thank God for having guided you"!. This statement brought tears in my eyes. Only Allah knows how much I think of Him every day.
Dear Brother,
Salamun Alaikum.
Please always take my posts with the sincerity that they are imparted with.
When dealing within a public space, people only know of you from what you write. They often do not know the personality behind the screen or what is in another's heart. Our responsibility is to best translate our thoughts into text when presenting it to another human being.
A small statement like 'Alhumdolillah' (as you used in your last post) or a similar sentiment of the like does not go amiss. Especially when one spends many paragraphs praising a human being.
It is my humble opinion, that we should take every opportunity to extol our Lord, our merciful God, who is worthy of being worshipped and appreciated.
Finally dear brother, just bethink, is it quite possible that someone shed a tear when they read your posts and found that you not once thanked the Creator, the Almighty? Is it possible? Let us not overtly appreciate created things but let us adore the Creator who created them. (41:37)
It is my humble opinion and from my discussions with you to date on his works, that there is a lot you have to learn about Parwez's works and I hope that one day when you are free from the mist of overt appreciation that you will be able to discern his works more objectively.
That would be a true blessing for people.
Regards,
Joseph.
-
Salaam Optomist,
I was like you as well before I turned to the Quran alone but unlike you, I am satisfied overall the current translations that exist. Only a handful of verses are influenced by sources outside the Quran which is evident from a little bit of research.
Traditional translations do not mean an incorrect translations which is what you are trying to suggest.
In the main, they are true to the Arabic UNLIKE the so called 'translation' by Parvez that you seem to adore. I have mentioned many times that the translations are not true to the original language and do not fit when put under careful investigation.
You seem oblivious to this even after you have been shown them. I am sure Parvez has written some great insights and no doubt spent an entire lifetime dedicated to Islam but that does not automatically make him correct.
It does not impress me when people push their own agenda when it comes to the Quran, producing a version that 'satisfies' their own outlook and views, pushing aside the real meanings.
Thanks