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The Quran => Islamic Duties => Topic started by: Reader Comments on August 01, 2012, 06:18:08 AM

Title: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Reader Comments on August 01, 2012, 06:18:08 AM
Post received by Wakas on Facebook

peace brother Joseph, I read your article on 5 prayers: http://quransmessage.com/articles/the%20five%20prayers%20from%20the%20quran%20FM3.htm

Here are the issues that you may wish to have another look at:

11:114 says “near/proximal parts” (plural – 3 or more) – proximal to what? Two ends of day.

Equates SBH and HMD to salat, however, if doing so, one must equate them in all verses mentioning times, once one does this, the times of SBH/HMD/salat become irreconcilable, or at least no-one I have ever read has done so. Did you analyse all such verses with timings?

5-a-day means no time-ranges given for all salat, or for some only, if so, explanation required.

2:238 – al salat al wusta is not in the same form as “salat al fajr/isha”, according to Arabic, the former is a description, the latter a specific.
If one chooses "middle prayer" then why is this singled out and is it this one can be done on the move? Requires explanation.

why in some verses does it mention some salat only, and not others, seemingly missing some out etc.

Other information:
Earliest Islamic sources clearly show it was originally two salat daily, with an optional night vigil.
http://www.urirubin.com/downloads/articles/morning.pdf
Post "night journey" (isra & miraj) it changed to 5, according to tradition.
Only two salat times mentioned by name in Quran - coincidence?
No record of "wusta" ever being a salat.
Examples of a twice daily seemingly in Quran itself: 6:52-53, 18:27-28.

In my humble opinion, the evidence is heavily weighted in favour of a minimum of two daily, for the mumineen - I say minimum as one could do more if one wishes etc.

Please note, I'm not looking for a lengthy discussion, just wanted to highlight issues. If in future, you look into, let me know the update. Thanks.
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Joseph Islam on August 01, 2012, 10:02:07 AM
Salamun Alaikum,

With respect, I feel that there are unwarranted assumptions in the contentions that you have shared. Please see my responses in BLUE and BOLD BLACK to your points in BROWN

11:114 says “near/proximal parts” (plural – 3 or more) – proximal to what? Two ends of day.

I assume the plurality in 11:114 you refer to is the indefinite noun 'zulfan'. This simply means an approach or to come close to in position. In this case it is used in conjunction with 'layl' which is a reference to the Maghrib prayer.

Equates SBH and HMD to salat, however, if doing so, one must equate them in all verses mentioning times, once one does this, the times of SBH/HMD/salat become irreconcilable, or at least no-one I have ever read has done so. Did you analyse all such verses with timings?

Why 'must' one equate them in all verses? I feel this is an unwarranted assumption with no Quranic or linguistic authority. This is a methodology of analysing the Quran which I humbly submit is incorrect and does not capture the various nuances of Arabic words in various contexts. For example, 'dhikr' simply means remembrance. It may or may not refer to the salat prayer. Salat can be a form of 'dhikr' but not all 'dhikr' is necessary 'salat'. Similarly, 'hmd' simply means 'to praise' as well as 'sbh' which can mean to magnify or celebrate or praise. Both 'hmd' and 'sbh' can encompass the salat the prayer.

In verse 20:130, the Quran used 'sbh' in 'wasabbih' to glorify the Lord before the rising of the sun and before its setting. These are specific periods which are mentioned without the use of 'salat'. However, we know from other parts of the Quran, these periods have also been used as periods to establish salat. For example Fajr salat is mentioned in 24:58 and referred to in 11:114. Similarly, 'sbh' in 'subhana' is again mentioned as a period to glorify God in 30:17 referring to Fajr (hina tusbihuna)

030:017
“So (give) glory to God, when you reach the evening (Arabic: hina tumsuna) and when you reach the morning (Arabic: hina tusbihuna)”
 
At no place does the Quran establish prayer by names. Where the Quran has mentioned the names of 'prayer', it has not named them with a view to establish them. 

Rather, the named prayers are referred to indirectly as a reference point while dealing with other matters. (Salat al-Fajr and Salat al-Isha as a period of undress / privacy - 24:58)

5-a-day means no time-ranges given for all salat, or for some only, if so, explanation required.

The Quran refers to establishing prayer (aqimi-salata) by referring to the periods of the day and not by reference to their names. The article clearly discusses the periods of the day when these prayers need to be established.

2:238 – al salat al wusta is not in the same form as “salat al fajr/isha”, according to Arabic, the former is a description, the latter a specific.
If one chooses "middle prayer" then why is this singled out and is it this one can be done on the move? Requires explanation.

Even if 'wusta' is an adjective, the phrase 'salat-al-wusta' clearly refers to a definite known period. The best inference from the word is a reference to the 'middle' which would imply the middle prayer. It is simply describing a period of the day when the prayer is read. The absence of the reason why it has been singled out is not sufficient warrant to contest its existence. If God says guard 'hafiz' the salat-ul-wusta, then that testimony is sufficient to guard it.

why in some verses does it mention some salat only, and not others, seemingly missing some out etc.

The Quran refers to establishing prayer (aqimi-salata) by referring to the periods of the day and not by reference to their names. Names of particular prayers in the Quran have only been cited as reference points and to emphasise a particular prayer and not with a view to establish them.

For example, in verse 24:58, where the names of the prayer ‘Salaat-il-Fajri’ and ‘Salaat-il-Isha’ do appear, they are referred to by virtue of them being reference points when certain groups of people require permission at times of undress / privacy.
 
024:058           
"O ye who believe! let those whom your right hands possess, and the (children) among you who have not come of age ask your permission (before they come to your presence), on three occasions: before morning prayer (Arabic: Salaat-il Fajri); and when you put aside your clothes for the noon; and after the late-night prayer (Arabic: Salaat-il'isha): these are your three times of undress: outside those times it is not wrong for you or for them to move about attending to each other: Thus does God make clear the Signs to you: for God is full of knowledge and wisdom"

At no place does the Quran say establish the 'Fajr' salat or 'Isha' salat.

Fajr and Isha have no meaning on their own. The Quran does not define that Fajr=X, and Isha=Y. We only know what these prayers refer to because these prayers have been assigned periods in other parts of the Quran.

For example, the period of Fajr is captured in the prayers at the two ends of the day (Salata-Tarafayi) as well as the hina tusbihuna (reaching the morning) in verse 30:17. Isha's period can equally be captured in the two ends of the day (salata Tarafa) 11:114 and in verses 3:17, 39:9 and 25:64.

Other information:
Earliest Islamic sources clearly show it was originally two salat daily, with an optional night vigil.
http://www.urirubin.com/downloads/articles/morning.pdf
Post "night journey" (isra & miraj) it changed to 5, according to tradition.
Only two salat times mentioned by name in Quran - coincidence?
No record of "wusta" ever being a salat.
Examples of a twice daily seemingly in Quran itself: 6:52-53, 18:27-28.


With regards your admission of secondary sources to support your Quranic position, this is unacceptable. This is a Quran based discussion and the admission of secondary sources as the ones you cite is respectfully, unwarranted.

In my humble opinion, the evidence is heavily weighted in favour of a minimum of two daily, for the mumineen - I say minimum as one could do more if one wishes etc.

With respect, I disagree with this statement on the basis of a lack of cogent information cited and contentions based on unwarranted assumptions.

As per my article, I humbly find that the Quran clearly establishes five periods in which prayer is to be performed during the day.

I hope this helps, God willing.

Kind regards,
Joseph.
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Wakas on August 05, 2012, 07:59:13 PM
Dear Joseph, w/salaam,

Thanks for the quick reply.

To make things clearer, I have numbered the points. All quotes are from what you wrote.


1) re: 11:114, please clarify "near/proximal" to what according to the Arabic? And if your answer could be classed as an "unwarranted assumption" on your part?
Note my use of "could" implying at least theoretically.


2)
Quote
In this case it is used in conjunction with 'layl' which is a reference to the Maghrib prayer.

Could this be classed as an "unwarranted assumption" on your part?


3) re: hmd/sbh, I said: "...one must equate them in all verses mentioning times..."

Quote
Why 'must' one equate them in all verses? I feel this is an unwarranted assumption with no Quranic or linguistic authority.


I based it on my own logic and being consistent. Can you tell us what method you used to determine which verses with hmd/sbh with timings you took as referring to salat and which you did not? So we can determine what "Quranic or linguistic authority" you used in doing so. Thanks.


4)
Quote
Both 'hmd' and 'sbh' can encompass the salat the prayer.

Could this be classed as an "unwarranted assumption" on your part?


5) Can you clarify if the time periods stated at the start of your article are also your own view of the time periods, i.e.
Quote
Fajr                                        Morning prayers just before sunrise
Dhuhr                                   Noonday prayers (after the sun begins to decline from its zenith)
Asr                                         Prayers before sunset but after Dhuhr prayers
Maghrib                               Prayers just after sunset
Isha                                        Night prayer

Personally, I'd prefer to have your timings with verses used to determine this in brackets, for quicker reference, at the end of your article.


6) And can you clarify if, according to you, some salat have defined delimited time periods and others do not?


7) And are they roughly equal in length of time? If not, why?


8 )
Quote
Even if 'wusta' is an adjective, the phrase 'salat-al-wusta' clearly refers to a definite known period.

Could the above be classed as an "unwarranted assumption" of yours?
The fact remains Quran does not state "al salat al wusta" in the same form as "salat al fajr/isha", when it could have easily done so. The former is a description, the latter a specific. If we assume the author of Quran is not random/haphazard in placing of words then there is a reason for this.


9)
Quote
The best inference from the word is a reference to the 'middle' which would imply the middle prayer.

No it is not. At best, subjective. Here are the occurrences in Quran:

And as such, We have made you a wasatan nation... [2:143]

God will not hold you for your unintentional oaths, but He will hold you for what oaths you have made binding; its cancellation shall be the feeding of ten poor from the awsati of what you feed your family... [5:89]

The awsatu among them said: "If only you had glorified!" [68:28]

Penetrating to the wasat together. [100:5]

Only the last verse it could be said that physical "middle" fits best. The majority are "middle" in an allegorical/figurative manner, as can be seen from Classical Arabic dictionaries also. Thus, in terms of probability, "wasat" in 2:238 more likely refers to the allegorical/figurative meaning - do you agree/disagree?


10) In your article, why do you only cite one other occurrence of this word (e.g. 100:5), neglecting others?


11)
Quote
The absence of the reason why it has been singled out is not sufficient warrant to contest its existence.

Can we therefore conclude you do not have an explanation of why it is apparently singled out? Do you not find this odd?


12) Can you also tell us how you determine if it the salat wusta only that can be done on the move in case of fear (see 2:239) or others also, and how you determine that - and if your answer could be classed as an "unwarranted assumption" of yours?


13) Further, in your article you have translated the "wa/and" in 2:238 as "especially" - is this an oversight, or, only your interpretation not a translation? Please clarify.


14)
Quote
With regards your admission of secondary sources to support your Quranic position, this is unacceptable. This is a Quran based discussion and the admission of secondary sources as the ones you cite is respectfully, unwarranted.
In your article, you used Lane's Lexicon - can you clarify if this is your primary source or a secondary source? If the latter, please clarify/correct your above statement.

My mentioning other sources was simply as additional information of interest, as this may not commonly be known, e.g. very very few people know that according to tradition it was only two daily salat prior to the "isra & miraj" story.


15)  You did not comment on "Examples of a twice daily seemingly in Quran itself: 6:52-53, 18:27-28.". Please do so.


Please take your time in responding, no rush.

I hope this discussion will help students of Quran weigh and consider the information regarding this issue better. For me, it is all about "putting evidence on the table" so to speak, as once this is done, people can then weigh and consider it.

As a side note, for background information, I have discussed this issue with many people with different views on the free-minds.org/forum if you/others wish to research further.
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Joseph Islam on August 05, 2012, 11:18:36 PM
Dear Wakas,

Salamun Alaikum.

With respect, as I assume you have some fluency with spoken Arabic and have studied classical Arabic or at least MSA, I was a little surprised to find what I felt were unwarranted linguistic limitations in your methodology which is something I would usually ascribe to someone who has no knowledge of the Arabic language and solely works off dictionaries and not your kind self.

As you know very well, words have different meanings and nuances given the context. Arabic is no different and I invite other readers to think about their own native languages and consider how one word has different shades of meanings in different contexts. The Quran is no different. It is simply a discourse in the language of its primary audience.

The Quran does not intend to define words. It is not a dictionary or lexicon. The Quran cannot be understood outside the ambit of the language that existed and known to the Arabs to whom the Quran was revealed. It was their responsibility to transmit the Quran and an ability to discern the meanings of the words as witnesses to mankind (22:78) and we must also always remain conscious of the language that has reached us today. The Quran's dhikr is not simply protected as text but as a message (15:9). A message implies the ability to understand the language.

With respect Wakas, I find that your methodology is fundamentally flawed because you attempt or 'expect' to 'fit' one meaning of a word in all contexts with a view to harmonise them. One word may never fit all contexts and that is why an understanding of the language is necessary outside the Quran. For example, how would you best understand the word “Eid’ (5:114) which is a hapax legomenon in the Quran (a word only used once within the whole text) without an appreciation of the general Arabic language which has reached us?

If words do not 'fit' given your criteria, I find you attempting to find new meanings of well established words that were arguably never known to the Arabs in that context.

As I found this theme somewhat repeated throughout your contentions I will respectfully hitherto refer to this as "NUANCE REJECTION". (Not allowing for the fact that Arabic words can have different shades of meanings given different contexts). I find that you have repeated this in so many of your articles (which I will pick up for serious criticism at some other point, time permitting and God willing, to highlight my contentions). I trust that you will welcome this critique to ascertain whether your approach to the Quran / analysis can withstand scrutiny and with a view to learn.

Sadly, at places, I also find your contentions unnecessarily contentious. I would hate to stop further discourses with you if I feel that our discussions are becoming a waste of my time, effort and yours.

Here are my responses to your contentions with my own question at the end. Please take them with the sincerity imparted and with an open mind to advance learning.


(1) I have explained 'zulfan' clearly citing evidence. So there is nothing unwarranted in my assumption on my part. I have given my best interpretation.

(2) No

(3) In my opinion, your logic is respectfully fundamentally flawed. I cite NUANCE REJECTION on your part. I clearly gave evidence where sbh (glory) for example, is twinned with the need to establish salat covering similar periods of the day in other parts of the Quran.

(4) No. I cite NUANCE REJECTION on your part.

(5) There is no warrant to define times for you when the Quran only wishes to advance periods of the day for establishing salat. I find today's practice in tandem with the guidance offered by the Quran. With respect, I also find that your question is unnecessarily contrived to support your premises.

(6) Once again, the Quran gives periods of the day where one should establish salat. No fixed lengths of prayers are stipulated. Only general guidance is offered to when they should be established during certain parts of the day. Today's practice fulfills those requirements.

(7) To intimate the need for them to be equal in length is once again, unwarranted

[8] No. The Quran spoke to an audience that clearly knew what 'salat al-wusta' meant. It was a definite known period especially given the use of the definitive. I respectfully find that you have persistently ignored my article and arguments and I respectfully assert that you show confirmation bias. The Quran does not establish salat by naming them. It has used fajr / isha in 24:58 as reference points when certain groups of people require permission at times of undress / privacy. The Quran calls for the establishment of prayer in the Quran by giving guidance to the periods of the day.

(9). I gave you best inference. Your examples are once again subject to NUANCE REJECTION and confirmation bias on your part

(10) I cite what is relevant given the context accepting the nuance of the Arabic language of the Quran and the best understanding of the language as it has reached me.

(11) No I do not. A prayer has been simply cited as requiring particular attention during the day. Why do you have to make this odd, unless you seek confirmation bias?

(12) 2:238 and 239 is very simple to understand unless someone is bent on disproving salat or a particular understanding of salat from the Quran. 2:238 simply tells us to remain conscious of our prayers citing one to remain particularly attentive. 2:239 simply informs us that any usual form or assembly can be abandoned in fear but implies salat cannot. This point is unnecessarily contentious.

(13) It is an interpretation only given context and where one salat is being singled out. The literal meaning of the conjunction 'wa' is indeed 'and'.

(14) I separate using secondary sources as a base for an argument or theological judgment and using secondary sources to understand the language and nuances of the Arabic of the Quran. I have clearly dealt with this in my article below where I discuss my definition of Islamic secondary sources and 'Preservation of the language'.
 
http://www.quransmessage.com/articles/hadith%20FM2.htm


(15) In my opinion, you wrongfully assume that 6:52-53 and 18:27-28 are addressing the prayers of the believers. With respect, this assumption is wholly unwarranted. Even if we accept that these verses are referring to 'salat' which the verse does not confirm, these verses are not proving how many prayers are read by the believers.

How do you know that these prayers are not a reference to some sects of the Jews or Chirstians or Sabians that had their own method of prayer twice a day?

If this is your main support for two prayers, then in my opinion, the foundation for your position of 'two prayers' for believers is with respect, completely flawed and you have built on this flawed premise to form an opinion. With respect, in my opinion you must revisit your premises unless you feel you are a 100% right then there is no point in a discussion.

With regards free-minds, I would prefer to discuss my ideas with academics who hold strong opposing views with my contentions (traditionally trained academics included) to ascertain whether my arguments can withstand their scrutiny. I do not find platforms such as free-minds conducive to proper academic discourses. However, I acknowledge that there are some great thinkers / academics that do at times share their thoughts there.

As I know you are one of the most prolific posters on 'free-minds' to date:

http://www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?action=stats

 ... May I kindly request you remain conscious of not using this forum inadvertently as an advertising platform.

As this forum is in its general infancy, I feel it would be rather nice for you instead to invite other members to this humble platform for reasoned academic discussions. This will help continue its growing reader base, rather than (inadvertently of course) use this platform to entice readers to a platform of which you respectfully, are the most prolific poster.

I have presented my arguments in my articles and given my responses to your contentions. As I assume you are asserting the requirement for a 2-prayer salat from a Quranic perspective, and keeping in view my response (15) to your premise, please can you provide me clear evidence from the Quran that it requires believers to perform 2 salaats a day.

I look forward to your clear, unequivocal evidence in support of your theory.

Welcome to the forum anyway! Nice to have you here.  :)
 
With respect,
Joseph.



Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Wakas on August 06, 2012, 02:33:47 PM
Dear Joseph, w/salaam,

Thanks for the reply.

Before I begin, please tell me where I stated the following:

Quote
With respect Wakas, I find that your methodology is fundamentally flawed because you attempt or 'expect' to 'fit' one meaning of a word in all contexts with a view to harmonise them.

With respect, this is a strawman logical fallacy. I have never said what you imply in the above statement.
Whilst one may think this when reading some of my works I have actually NEVER said one meaning must fit all occurrences. Not here or other forums, not in my articles, not on facebook, and the perhaps most notable (if it indeed was my view) not in my 8000+ posts on the free-minds.org forum.

My view is that the strong preference is to have a consistent meaning for a word in the same form throughout Quran UNLESS there is a solid reason not to, e.g. based on logic.

Therefore I humbly request you correct your statement.



Why there are parts in red will be explained nearer the end. Ignore them for now:

Re: 1) I asked a simple question: near/proximal to what according to the Arabic? If your view is it means "EARLY approaches/hours from the layl"  then please state so. I request this so readers can weigh and consider for themselves.

Re: 2) it most definitely is an assumption on your part. This is fact. However, whether it is "unwarranted" or not is a judgement call so I cant comment on that. I am disappointed you did not at least clarify you are making an assumption, not only in this instance but several times in your work.
My point is simple - you have assumed one thing, and for sake of argument, I have assumed another, i.e. proximal/near parts needs a marker and thus refers to the two ends of the daytime. This is also theoretically possible. Simple. Again, the intention is to have the evidence on the table, for readers to be able to weigh and consider for themselves.

Re: 3) Since you were not clear, I will have to assume you did not use all verses that mention sbh/hmd WITH timings as referring to salat, AND that you have no system other than subjective opinion (or pre-conceived notion) when you determined which ones were referring to salat and which were not.
If true, I would cite this as a fundamental flaw in your view.

Re: 4) See opening statement of this post of mine.
You make an assumption that certain sbh/hmd can refer to the timed salat. Simple. You seemingly do not consider that other possibilities include: if God meant salat He could have used that word, or, it is an idiomatic phrase, or, it is referring to the prophet only due to it being singular, or, refers to something else etc etc.

Re: 5) and 6) thanks for clarifying.

Re: 7) I will have to conclude, therefore, that you have no explanation as to why the time periods differ in length.

Re: 8 ) it most definitely is an assumption on your part. This is fact. However, whether it is "unwarranted" or not is a judgement call so I cant comment on that. I am disappointed you did not at least clarify you are making an assumption, not only in this instance but several times in your work.
And as for "confirmation bias" I could say the same thing about your work, i.e. pre-conceived notion of it being 5 daily.

Re: 9) Interestingly you claim "nuance rejection" even when I openly said "Only the last verse it could be said that physical "middle" fits best. I have very little problem it meaning "midst/middle" here.
My contention was very simple: majority usage of the word means middle in a figurative manner thus in terms of probability as to the meaning in 2:238, it is more likely middle in a figurative manner. This is fact. Whether it is true or not is another matter.
Once again, you make an assumption and opt for literal middle as the meaning. What underpins your assumption is "confirmation bias" which ironically you accuse me of.

Re: 10) in other words, it could be said, your choosing of verses to cite shows subjectivity and "confirmation bias".

Re: 11) Thanks for clarifying you do not have an explanation as to why it has apparently been singled out.
This is not a case of "confirmation bias" on my part as I was referring to YOUR view and asking further about it.

Re: 12) Thanks for clarifying it is an inference/assumption on your part as to which salat or salawat 2:239 refers to. Nothing wrong with an inference/assumption, as long as it is clearly pointed out for readers to weigh and consider.

Re: 13) Thanks for clarifying it is an interpretation on your part. Again, for me it is all about putting the evidence on the table so readers can weigh and consider for themselves. You do not mention this in your article - perhaps you should.

Re: 14) Thanks for clarifying. As I'm sure you know Classical Arabic dictionaries are, in part, based on Traditional Islamic sources such as Traditional Hadith.

Re: 15) Yes, I have assumed one thing - you have assumed another. Simple.
There is nothing conclusive but in terms of weighing the evidence 6:53 and 6:54 both continue from 6:52 with "wa", and in 6:54 it refers to "those who believe" (i.e. mumineen), and in 18:29 it seems to refer to a mix of people: those who believe/reject. It is hard to say.
Interestingly you say "Even if we accept that these verses are referring to 'salat' which the verse does not confirm" - when same could be said for your use of hmd/sbh verses.

You said:
Quote
If this is your main support for two prayers, then in my opinion, the foundation for your position of 'two prayers' for believers is with respect, completely flawed

It is not my main support. We were discussing YOUR article, so it is not necessary for me to cite my evidence for my view. I find this comment of yours rash and unfair.

My article, albeit a brief one, can be read here: http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm
However it does not discuss the timings in detail, as this was not its intention. The timing information is the result of many discussions on free-minds, the better ones have been linked to here in a compilation thread for easier reading: http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598319.0 (see reply #3)
It may be easier for you to simply state what problems, if any, you find in such a view. If memory serves me correctly, I recall very few, but certainly, in my view, nowhere near the scale of problems in the 3 or 5 view.

Re: academics
I'm not sure how you define "academics" or if this forum is primarily populated by such "academics", but I do not have such a distinction when discussing Quran with others. All I prefer is discussion based on evidence/reason whoever it is with. All forums, if large enough, have a mix of good/bad people with regards to this point. I'd be the first to state free-minds forum has its share of those who speak nonsense, but unfortunately I only have a say in the forum rules I do not decide them unilaterally.

I have linked to this site many times. I link to wherever is relevant. Usually, the intention is not to advertise but I can see how that impression might be given.

Thanks for the welcome to the forum.

###

In somewhat of a summary, I have highlighted in red the issues with your view, for easier reference.

Readers are free to weigh and consider the evidence for themselves.
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Joseph Islam on August 06, 2012, 03:02:39 PM
Dear Wakas,

Salamun Alaikum.

Thanks for your post.

I clearly find the traditional 5 prayers supported by the Quran and I with respect, feel nothing that you have raised has provided any cogency for an apt rebuttal. I appreciate that readers can form their own opinions.

When one makes an opinion for a certain position, they weigh all the evidence and counter evidence for an alternate viable position. If you provide no evidence for a viable alternate position for your 2 prayers, then your premises cannot be fairly considered either.

I only desired to weigh the evidence in favour of a 2 prayer system as a possible alternative as opposed to my argument for 5, so I do not feel my request was unwarranted, rash or unfair. Your criticism is therefore unwarranted.

Finally, I never 'stated' that you said:

Quote
With respect Wakas, I find that your methodology is fundamentally flawed because you attempt or 'expect' to 'fit' one meaning of a word in all contexts with a view to harmonise them.

It was clearly my opinion which should be clear for anyone reading my quote "I find ..." Therefore, I find no reason to correct my statement as it is a personal opinion. It was merely an observation on my part so your citation of an informal fallacy on my part is unwarranted and somewhat ironical as you misrepresent my position.

My opinion was simply based on many of your articles and arguments that I have read and engaged with you on hitherto and where I find your methodology with respect, flawed. An example of this is your fantastic and unwarranted understanding of 'sujud' and 'masjid' to which you seem to pin alien meanings when you can't appreciate simple nuances of the language and where you have trouble reconciling verses. I only mention this as I find that you bring the same limitations in your analysis technique and faulty premises that you oft form to this discussion.

If we are going to challenge any position, traditional or otherwise, it is my humble view that the Quranic evidence has to be unequivocal, clear and cogent to contest it. I have till date failed to see any such evidence and neither have you provided any.

Thank you for your posts. With respect, I find absolutely no credibility in your contentions which I appreciate is for other readers to consider for their own.

Thanks for your efforts nevertheless, which are indeed appreciated.  :)

Regards,
Joseph.
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Wakas on August 06, 2012, 05:21:08 PM
Dear Joseph, w/salaam,

Thanks for the swift reply.

You said:
Quote
I only desired to weigh the evidence in favour of a 2 prayer system as a possible alternative as opposed to my argument for 5, so I do not feel my request was unwarranted, rash or unfair. Your criticism is therefore unwarranted.

Your response to me implied something, and that is you expect forum members, such as myself, who point out something in your articles that they should provide a detailed evidenced article of their contrary position whilst doing so. Or if they mention something and ask your view on it, and even if they put it under "other information", it is fair for you to assume that this is their "main support" for their position!

I find the above notions completely objectionable, and in my view, a clear example of an error in judgement on your part. If you disagree, it is ok, each to their own subjectivity.

You said:
Quote
It was clearly my opinion which should be clear for anyone reading my quote "I find ..." Therefore, I find no reason to correct my statement as it a personal opinion.

And I clarified your "opinion" of my method is not true.

You said:
Quote
An example of this is your fantastic and unwarranted understanding of 'sujud' and 'masjid' to which you seem to pin alien meanings when you can't appreciate simple nuances of the language and where you have trouble reconciling verses. I only mention this as I find that you bring the same limitations in your analysis technique and faulty premises that you oft form to this discussion.

Firstly, I am glad to hear that you know of those works and have perhaps read them. If we do not read alternative views, or works that challenge our views, then we can never truly weigh and consider the truth, and would clearly fall afoul of "confirmation bias". We should all bear this in mind.

You claim I pinned alien meanings, when I am sure you are very aware that not only Classical Arabic dictionaries but also Quran itself uses "sujud" how I understand the term (even traditional exegetes). And as for "masjid", well the jury is out on that one, but I know one thing, the problems I point out are clear for all to see. If you have understandings of 2:187 and 18:21 please link me to them, thanks.
(Reference for readers who may be unaware of what is being referred to: see sujud (http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html) and masjid (http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-quran.html) links)

You said:
Quote
I have till date failed to see any such evidence and neither have you provided any.

In your view, yes (assuming you read them). For others, see the links I provided.

You said:
Quote
...I find absolutely no credibility in your contentions...

I find the language you use absolutist. Personally, I would not describe your 5-a-day position in the above terms, even though I disagree with it.


And in case it was not obvious, I also appreciate your works, in fact, very much so.

Regards,
Wakas
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Joseph Islam on August 06, 2012, 06:22:07 PM
Salamun Alaikum Wakas.

Thanks for your comments. Please always construe my language with any apparent certainty only as my personal opinion based on the evidence that has reached me, that I have put to scrutiny and am convinced of at that point in time. It is not intended to portray an indisputable perfection of thought, absolute or an irrefutable authority.

Also, If you ever feel you want to get another view or critique of a thought / concept or just bounce academic ideas and you deem me appropriate, please feel free to ask. I can only promise to be sincere and honest in my humble opinion and to do my best. I will of course assume that these sentiments are mutual.

You will already know of my views on 'sujud' which appear as a short article on my site. Many readers here I am sure are also already aware.

http://quransmessage.com/articles/sujud%20FM3.htm

Regards,
Joseph.
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Wakas on June 09, 2013, 07:48:12 PM
peace Joseph, all,

I recently compiled a brief list of Qs from my original article, to allow readers to more easily go through the issues raised in the article.

#####

From here (http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html).

For those who consider "sujud" to mean "physical prostration":

1) Re: SJD to/for adam/mankind - 2:34, 7:11-12, 15:29-32, 17:61, 18:50, 20:116, 38:72-76
Issue: if taken as a commonly understood physical prostration, it seems odd that angels/controllers or iblees (made of 'smokeless fire') could do this in a defined physical visible form, but it is possible - what is your view?

2) Re: 22:18, 55:6 - SJD to/for God who is in the heavens/earth, and the sun/moon/stars/mountains/trees/creatures and many of the people
13:15 ...to/for God SJD who is in the heavens and the earth, willingly and unwillingly, and their shadows in the mornings and late-afternoons.
Issue: Contextually implying that the same SJD is done by the shadows as well as who is in the heavens/earth, meaning it is unlikely for it to mean prostrate here - what is the "sujud" of inanimate objects?
If we accept that someone may prostrate physically (nose and forehead on ground) willingly, how can we understand this unwillingly? Does God push people on their faces forcefully so that they fall down on their noses and foreheads unwillingly?

3) Re: 16:48-50 Can they not look to a thing God created? Its shadow turns to the right and the left, SuJaD to/for God and/while they are humble.
Issues: If we take the above as prostrations/prostrating (as some translations do), then this would clearly imply that no matter which direction the shadow faces it is STILL prostrating to/for God, i.e. God is everywhere, which links with "to God belongs the east and west so wherever you turn there is God's face/regard", see 2:115. This strongly and clearly implies direction is irrelevant here - what is your view on this?
Since SJD is in the Arabic plural (more than two) we can infer that each and every point in the shadow's movement is a SJD. How is it showing this SJD?

4) Re: 27:24 "And I found her and her people SJuD to/for the sun instead of God! And the devil had made their works/deeds appear good to them, so averting/hindering them from the path, so they are not guided."
27:25 "Will they not SJuD to/for God who brings out what is hidden in the heavens and the Earth, and He knows what you hide and what you declare?"
Issues: Note it says the hoopoe "found" (wajad) them, not "saw" (raayt) them as in Joseph's dream in which he saw the moon/sun/planets SJD to/for him. Of course, moon/sun/planets do not physically prostrate as humans do, so what Joseph saw was something else - how were the sun/moon/planets giving sujud to Joseph?
So let us assume it means a traditional prostration in 27:24, how can one identify whom the prostration is done to?

5) Re: 84:21-22 And when the Quran/reading is recited to them, they do not SJuD. No, those who have rejected/concealed are denying.
Issue: Interestingly, if sujud=prostration here then this implies God wishes the audience to not only accept what is said but ALSO get down on their hands and knees and prostrate physically (to whom/what?). This seems unusual. What is your understanding of this?

6) Re: 48:29 Muhammad is the messenger of God, and those who are with him are stern against the concealers/rejecters/ingrates, but merciful between themselves. You see them inclining/humbling and SuJaD, seeking bounty from God and pleasure/approval. Their distinction is in their faces/attentions/considerations/wills/purposes, from the trace/teaching/influence of the SuJuD.
Issues: Perhaps the majority of people would not have a trace of prostration on their face from physically prostrating in prayer for example, even if it was done many times per day, so this understanding, whilst superficially plausible, actually falls short - what is your view?
It should be noted that in the prior context, 48:25, it clearly implies some believers were unknown/unrecognisable, which makes it even more unlikely it is referring to a physical mark on one's face - response?

7) Re: 2:58, 4:154, 7:161 ...enter the gate SuJuD
Issue: Clearly they cannot enter the gate prostrating - response?

8 ) Re: Re: 7:120, 20:70, 26:46
20:70 Then the magicians were cast* SuJaD. They said: "We believe in the Lord of Aaron and Moses."
*Arabic: uL'QiYa is in the passive perfect form, meaning the object (i.e. magicians) received the action expressed in the verb, an action done/completed upon them. Using cross-reference the most likely meaning of this word is "cast" and is a likely play on words due to the casting done in the previous context.
Issues: IF it is translated as physically thrown/cast down (as done in most translations), since it is passive, then one must ask who/what physically threw them down? The answer is of course nothing/no-one, they did it themselves, thus a physical throwing/casting interpretation becomes illogical. To negate this point, an example similar to this in AQ using another passive verb would have to be cited.
Further, looking at the following verses, is it likely they made a statement whilst physically prostrating on the ground? - yes/no/unsure

9) Re: 68:42-43 The day the shin shall be exposed/uncovered/removed, and they will be called to the SuJuD but they will not be able. Their looks/eyes humbled/lowered, humiliation will cover them. And indeed they were called to the SuJuD while they were sound/well.
Issue: It should be noted that having one's shin removed is unlikely to prevent one from doing a physical prostration, hence some translators claiming they will be unable to prostrate simply due to their shame, but if this is the case, the obvious question becomes: why mention a shin at all? - response?

10) Re: 17:107-109 Say: "Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins SuJaD."
Issue: do you take it as a physical prostration to the chin or not, or something else?

11) Re: 84:20-22 So what is the matter with them that they do not believe? And when the quran/reading is being recited to them, they do not SJuD. No, those who rejected/concealed are denying.
32:15 Only they believe in Our signs whom when they are reminded by them, they fall SuJaD, and glorify with praise of their Lord, and they are not arrogant.
Issue: this clearly suggests that whenever Quran is recited the audience should physically prostrate - what is your view?

12) Re: 4:102 ...and thou uphold/establish the salat/bond for/to them, then let a group from among them stand/uphold//establish with thee and let them bring their weapons; then when they have SaJaD then let them be behind you (plural)...
Issues:
---it would imply that salat ends upon SJD, but if salat=prayer and SJD=prostration here, then we know traditional Muslim prayer has at least two prostrations per unit of prayer, not one, thus the verse by itself is not clear or does not make sense. The only way for it to make some sense would be to say traditional Muslim prayer normally consists of two prostrations, and since it is during wartime this can be reduced to one prostration. There is no such thing as a unit of prayer according to The Quran, nor do traditional Muslims do it in this manner (i.e. prayer does not end with prostration), but this explanation is just to show what sense could be made of this verse according to the traditional understanding.
---it implies that one must take AND hold their weapons/goods with them (by use of 'tadaAAoo / lay down', later in the verse), but if it is understood as traditional Muslim prayer then physically bowing, kneeling and prostrating like this would be impractical and somewhat dangerous, e.g. prostrating with swords!
---it says if impeded by rain or illness then one can lay down weapons but does not say anything about being excluded from prostrating. So the obvious question becomes what kind of rain/illness would prevent one from carrying weapons yet allow one to physically prostrate? It would seem there is no easy answer to this problem.
---We are also left with another problem, because if we accept that the regular/timed salat involves recitation of AQ which is strongly evidenced by AQ itself, and agreed upon by almost all [see 2:43-45, 4:103, 5:12-13, 7:169-170, 8:2-3, 19:58-59, 29:45, 31:2-7, 33:33-34, 17:78], then we know we are commanded to SJD when it is relayed to us [84:20-22, 19:58, 32:15], but if we were to do this in the regular/timed salat and we know salat ends with SJD according to 4:102 then it would last less than 20 seconds!
Views on these 4 issues?


Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Joseph Islam on June 10, 2013, 04:11:58 AM
Respected brother Wakas,

As-salam alaykum

This is actually a very good way to summarise your contentions.

The way you have formulated your questions is also commendable as it shares the premises behind why you have chosen to take an alternative view and yet 'seemingly' leaves and air of 'openness' that if someone can prove to you why a particular understanding may be better, you ‘may’ be willing to consider it / reconsider your position.

I believe this is the best approach as one who can / is willing to alter their views in light of a possible better or more convincing argument without fear of others.

I approach your kindly shared contentions with some premises. I would like to highlight them first. I trust that you do not necessarily disagree with them.


MY FUNDAMENTAL PREMISES


In a similar manner, humans can also show their humility, submissiveness (sujud) by a physical prostration but not restricted to it. For example, Prophet Joseph’s family didn’t necessarily 'physically prostrate’ to him but saluted him, or showed some form of deep respect to him (12:100) in the manner humans did at that time to a person in authority. It was not done in 'worship'.

This still retains the primary meaning of the word of 'humility', 'submissiveness' and to 'pay respect'.

A physical prostration is only one form of showing such reverence that human’s use and even then it does not necessarily imply 'worship'. Some people around the world touch the feet of others or bow down to others out of sincere respect even when greeting others.

This multifaceted nuanced meaning of SJD depending on context can also be seen in the following example in the Quran:

007.161
"And remember it was said to them: "Dwell in this town and eat from it as you wish, but say the word of humility and enter the gate in a posture of humility (Arabic: Sujjada(n)). We shall forgive you your faults; We shall increase (the portion of) those who do good.""
 
The word SJD here clearly implies 'entering the gate humbly' or 'in a posture of humility'.
 
Only the language of the Arabs can determine how best to interpret SJD in a particular context, much like it is for us 'as native English speakers' to specify how 'touch' is used and understood in different contexts in English.


YOUR CONTENTIONS IN LIGHT OF THE ABOVE PREMISES





THEREFORE IN SUMMARY:
 

I hope that this addresses some of your contentions once you have allowed the word ‘SJD’ to operate with the nuanced understanding that I feel it is meant to be in the language of the Arabs, God willing.

I hope you do not see it as anything more than two believers attempting to mull over God's messages with sincerity in the midst of a proverbial campfire.

With utmost respect and regards,
Joseph.  :)



REFERENCES:

[1] SAJDA e-TILAWAT - UNDERSTANDING THE TRADITION
http://quransmessage.com/articles/st%20FM3.htm
[2] WHAT IS THE QURANIC SUJUD (PROSTRATION)?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/sujud%20FM3.htm






Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Wakas on June 10, 2013, 06:12:10 AM
peace brother Joseph,

Thanks for the quick reply.

Re: your premises
I agree with what you said, however the only thing I'd add is that when it comes to "different meanings depending on context" I have a preference for evidence - what I mean by this is ideally there should be a logical/practical reason why one meaning is chosen rather than another. For example I do not give much weight to reason such as "I like meaning A better than meaning B". I can appreciate that sometimes having such a preference can occur, as there may be no evidence either way, but this should be kept to a minimum.

###

Re: 2)
You never commented on: "If we accept that someone may prostrate physically (nose and forehead on ground) willingly, how can we understand this unwillingly? Does God push people on their faces forcefully so that they fall down on their noses and foreheads unwillingly?"

Please clarify.


Re: 6)
Did you cite the correct verse, i.e. 16:22?

Re: 8 )
Out of curiosity are you aware of a passive verb usage in Quran wherein the doer and receiver are one and the same person? I understand that this would take ages to check, but if you know of an example etc please let me know. I just thought it was a strange usage, hence my request.

Re: 9)
Can you clarify if this is your own opinion on what the shin represents or are you basing it on something?

Re: 12)
Can you clarify that you do not take the SJD in 4:102 to mean prostration as you said
"You have respectfully, yet without warrant, inferred a 'physical prostration'. If we simply allow the primary meaning of the word SJD to remain operative (i.e. SJD = humility, pay respect, honour, salute and humble), then salat can end once the spiritual experience of prayer is completed irrespective of whether or not this means a physical prostration. you do not"
but then later said
"'Fa'idha sajadu' (Then when they have prostrated)".

Do you mean "then when they have paid respect" or similar?

###

If I have understood you correctly, out of all the verse examples I highlighted, you consider none to CLEARLY refer to physical prostration (even though many are referring to humans doing SJD)?


Quote
I hope you do not see it as anything more than two believers attempting to mull over God's messages with sincerity in the midst of a proverbial campfire.

I like to think two akhwi*/brothers, but yes, of course that is how I take it.  :)
*or whatever the dual is.




Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Joseph Islam on June 10, 2013, 08:45:53 AM
Dear brother Wakas,

As-salam alaykum

Please see my responses to your comments in red


*or whatever the dual is.

2 brothers = akhwaan

akh - a brother (singular)
ikhwa - plural (3+) brothers

We are indeed 'akhwaan' discussing over the proverbial campfire  :)

I agree with what you said, however the only thing I'd add is that when it comes to "different meanings depending on context" I have a preference for evidence - what I mean by this is ideally there should be a logical/practical reason why one meaning is chosen rather than another. For example I do not give much weight to reason such as "I like meaning A better than meaning B". I can appreciate that sometimes having such a preference can occur, as there may be no evidence either way, but this should be kept to a minimum.

Of course I agree. I would only dare to infer and work with the language of the Arabs as has reached us and cite appropriate sources as best evidence. We both appreciate that words have different nuances in languages depending on their contextual usage known to those that speak the language and study it. I gave the example of the English word 'touch' as you will recall from my earlier post.

I would not knowingly invent my own meanings to words which were never understood by the Arabs in that context or ‘pick and choose’ without warrant.

You will have noted my unreserved explicit statement:

Only the language of the Arabs can determine how best to interpret SJD in a particular context, much like it is for us 'as native English speakers' to specify how 'touch' is used and understood in different contexts in English.

Yes, there may be a difference of opinion, but a combination of the language of the Arabs and an ardent analysis of the Quran will yield the best rendition in my humble opinion.

As you know very well dear brother, there are some Muslims that show almost complete disregard for the language of the Arabs as it has come to us as knowledge through literature and in general parlance. I understand that you and I are of the same view on this point. Note how many times you yourself have rightly asked for 'CAD' references in many of your encounters with others.

Re: 2)
You never commented on: "If we accept that someone may prostrate physically (nose and forehead on ground) willingly, how can we understand this unwillingly? Does God push people on their faces forcefully so that they fall down on their noses and foreheads unwillingly?"

Please clarify.

An example of unwilling:

The unwilling components are those that despite not showing humility and obedience to God are in fact, still part of God's creation and subject to His will. God still keeps them alive, He still provides them sustenance and will still hold them to account on the Day of Judgement. Furthermore, some do prostrate in congregations but not out of reverence but rather as show. This is another example of an 'unwilling' group.

"...And when they stand up for salat, they stand without earnestness / lazily, to be seen of people / showing off to people, but little do they hold God in remembrance..." (4:142 part)

Re: 6)
Did you cite the correct verse, i.e. 16:22?

Numbers 16:22 is a reference to the Torah (Old Testament) to indicate that even the prophets of old fell on their faces in humility to show their reverence to God in worship.  The similitude with the ancients in general was cited in verse 48:29 of the Quran (i.e. That is their similitude in the Torah - dhalika mathaluhum fi-l'taurah)

Re: 8 )
Out of curiosity are you aware of a passive verb usage in Quran wherein the doer and receiver are one and the same person? I understand that this would take ages to check, but if you know of an example etc please let me know. I just thought it was a strange usage, hence my request.

I have respectfully not argued for a 'physical' prostration in this verse exclusively.  As I mentioned, 'or after they had become 'lowly', 'submissive' having submitted to the truth manifested to them'. The latter 'manifestation of truth' also caused them to become lowly / submissive.

Re: 9)
Can you clarify if this is your own opinion on what the shin represents or are you basing it on something?

It is an interpretation based on the language of the Arabs.

As I respectfully shared ‘the shin being bared’ is a time when everything will be laid out in the open, where one will feel a sense of humiliation. It is a time of extreme distress and difficulty when the event of one's deed will be opened up for scrutiny and full disclosure. For some, the impending doom will become evident.

Grammarians express that the 'saaq' (shank / shin) is usually an expression cited to express the difficulty of a particular situation and the subsequent terror that will come by it. The difficulty here is the bringing out in the open of one's deeds for scrutiny and the subsequent terror is the impending doom that will be the evident consequence.

Please see below a citation to support this view:

"...they mention the ساق when they mean to express the difficulty of a case or an event, and to tell of the terror occasioned thereby. (K, TA.) Thus, the saying ... (S, K, TA,) in the Kur [68:42], (S, TA,) [lit. On a day when a shank shall be uncovered,] means (assumed tropical:) on a day when difficulty, or calamity, shall be disclosed..." [1]

REFERENCE: [1] LANE. E.W, Edward Lanes Lexicon, Williams and Norgate 1863; Librairie du Liban Beirut-Lebanon 1968, Volume 4, Page 1471

Re: 12)
Can you clarify that you do not take the SJD in 4:102 to mean prostration as you said
"You have respectfully, yet without warrant, inferred a 'physical prostration'. If we simply allow the primary meaning of the word SJD to remain operative (i.e. SJD = humility, pay respect, honour, salute and humble), then salat can end once the spiritual experience of prayer is completed irrespective of whether or not this means a physical prostration. you do not"
but then later said
"'Fa'idha sajadu' (Then when they have prostrated)".

Do you mean "then when they have paid respect" or similar?

Yes that is correct. I explained what I meant by 'Then when they have prostrated' as simply referring to 'the condition when they have completed their reverence to God (i.e. their prayer). This may or may not include prostration. As I have respectfully shared, a physical prostration is one method of showing reverence.

If I have understood you correctly, out of all the verse examples I highlighted, you consider none to CLEARLY refer to physical prostration (even though many are referring to humans doing SJD)?

I tackled the primary meaning of 'SJD' as to show humility, submissiveness, to be humbled, show reverence, salute, honour, pay regards, respects etc. Physical prostration is just one method to show this. I also distinguished between two forms of physical prostration in humans. One done in respect, general reverence to other human beings and one done in worship / reverence to God.

Some SJD (reverence, show of humility, submissiveness) do manifest as physical prostrations.  One example in the worship of God is cited in verse 48:29

Your brother in faith,
Joseph.
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: optimist on June 10, 2013, 05:59:29 PM
Salaam!

Without interrupting the discussion let me make one post here.

12) Re: 4:102 ...and thou uphold/establish the salat/bond for/to them, then let a group from among them stand/uphold//establish with thee and let them bring their weapons; then when they have SaJaD then let them be behind you (plural)...
Issues:
---it would imply that salat ends upon SJD, but if salat=prayer and SJD=prostration here, then we know traditional Muslim prayer has at least two prostrations per unit of prayer, not one, thus the verse by itself is not clear or does not make sense. The only way for it to make some sense would be to say traditional Muslim prayer normally consists of two prostrations, and since it is during wartime this can be reduced to one prostration. There is no such thing as a unit of prayer according to The Quran, nor do traditional Muslims do it in this manner (i.e. prayer does not end with prostration), but this explanation is just to show what sense could be made of this verse according to the traditional understanding.
---it implies that one must take AND hold their weapons/goods with them (by use of 'tadaAAoo / lay down', later in the verse), but if it is understood as traditional Muslim prayer then physically bowing, kneeling and prostrating like this would be impractical and somewhat dangerous, e.g. prostrating with swords!
---it says if impeded by rain or illness then one can lay down weapons but does not say anything about being excluded from prostrating. So the obvious question becomes what kind of rain/illness would prevent one from carrying weapons yet allow one to physically prostrate? It would seem there is no easy answer to this problem.
---We are also left with another problem, because if we accept that the regular/timed salat involves recitation of AQ which is strongly evidenced by AQ itself, and agreed upon by almost all [see 2:43-45, 4:103, 5:12-13, 7:169-170, 8:2-3, 19:58-59, 29:45, 31:2-7, 33:33-34, 17:78], then we know we are commanded to SJD when it is relayed to us [84:20-22, 19:58, 32:15], but if we were to do this in the regular/timed salat and we know salat ends with SJD according to 4:102 then it would last less than 20 seconds!
Views on these 4 issues?

Dear brother wakas,

I can agree with you if you say the Quranic terms like Salat and SJD have got vast meanings, not limited to physical performance alone.    In the verse you have quoted above, it is definitely something to do with physical performance of Salat and SJD.  The verse is guiding Muslims how to offer physical performance of Salaat and SJD during a war time.   You have raised some questions to show the message is something different (not clear what is the essence of the directions in the verse according to you); unfortunately they are not such logical points.

1. Firstly, one group of Muslims should join the Sal’at first retaining their arms.  It does not necessarily mean they should carry their weapon in their hands.   Even if they place their weapon close to them it can mean carrying the arms.   The point highlighted in the verse is not to neglect the weapon because; while they are involved in Salaat there is possibility of enemy army make a sudden attack.  This point is specifically highlighted in the verse.   They should keep their weapon close to them so as to access instantly in case of any emergency.    And to face any emergent situation there is other group who are not participating in salaat and SJD.  They will offer prayer after the first group finished their prayers.

2. There is no need to be obsessed with the type of prayer they did.   Even a prayer can finish by SJD, however, it is possible that the Quran has highlighted the main aspect of Slaat which is SDJ.   It is something to do with how the Muslim community at that point of time designed a prayer (through mutual consultation) to meet a war like situation.   

3. Allah has given an exception not to retain arms during rain or illness (still it is mentioned that we should be vigilant) to avoid any inconvenience to carrying and keeping the weapon all the time during such time.   It is possible that some people might be unwell to retain the arms but able to pray.  In a rainly situation it could be inconvenient to carry arms.  But one group keeping vigilant without participating in the prayer is still valid (until the other group finishes their prayer)
 
Quote
Examples of a twice daily seemingly in Quran itself: 6:52-53, 18:27-28.

This is from one your previous posts.  I believe the Quranic usage of the term “morning and evening”  refers to the whole day and NOT related to any particular time in the morning and in the evening.   Here is the evidence.

"They will not there hear any vain discourse, but only salutations of Peace: and they will have therein their sustenance, morning and evening." (19:62)

Here it does not mean food will be ‘served’ in heaven only in the morning and evening.  It does not mean there is no “Lunch”.

"..and they say: "Tales of the ancients, which he has caused to be written: and they are dictated before him morning and evening." (25:5)

Here it does not mean they are accusing prophet doing something only in the morning time and evening time.

And to God submits whosoever is in the heavens and the earth willingly or unwillingly and like wise do their shadows in the mornings and the evenings. (13:15)

Here it does not refer to shadows only in the morning time and in the evening time. 

In front of the Fire will they be brought, morning and evening: and (the sentence will be) on the Day that Judgment will be established: "Cast ye the People of Pharaoh into the severest Penalty!" (40:46)

Again, here it does not mean they will be brought only in the morning time and evening time!

Therefore, in the verses you have quoted and also the verses like the below where celebrating Allah’s praises are mentitioned, it actually refers to the whole day, not a particular time in the morning and in the evening.

"So Zakariya came out to his people from him chamber: He told them by signs to celebrate Allah's praises in the morning and in the evening. (19:11)

"..In order that ye (O men) may believe in Allah and His Messenger, that ye may assist and honour Him, and celebrate His praise morning and evening. (48:9)

"...and glorify Him morning and evening.(33:42)

Regards
Optimist
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Joseph Islam on June 10, 2013, 07:06:11 PM
I believe the Quranic usage of the term “morning and evening”  refers to the whole day and NOT related to any particular time in the morning and in the evening.   Here is the evidence.

Dear respected brother Optimist

As-salam alaykum

I completely agree with your point above and the evidence that you have cited from the Quran completely corroborates this.

On a slightly separate note, someone recently informed me in a discussion that other languages which often borrow words from Arabic and retain similar meanings also make use of a similar expression.

The language in question was 'Urdu' and the expression 'subha o-shaam' (morning and evening) 'apparently' is usually expressed to mean all day as opposed to just two parts of the day.

Obviously those who are familiar with the language on this forum will be able to better comment. I just found it interesting in light of your point here.

Your brother in faith,
Joseph  :)


Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Wakas on June 10, 2013, 10:16:08 PM
peace brother Joseph,

Thanks for the clarifications. I have added that Lane's Lexicon reference to the article.

Quote
I tackled the primary meaning of 'SJD' as to show humility, submissiveness, to be humbled, show reverence, salute, honour, pay regards, respects etc. Physical prostration is just one method to show this. I also distinguished between two forms of physical prostration in humans. One done in respect, general reverence to other human beings and one done in worship / reverence to God.

Some SJD (reverence, show of humility, submissiveness) do manifest as physical prostrations.  One example in the worship of God is cited in verse 48:29

I personally do not consider 48:29 a clear example of this, but I accept it is possible it refers to physical prostration.

Thanks for the discussion. In my article, I basically have the same conclusion/thoughts as you have expressed.

I hope that my article allows people to weigh up all the evidence, then make an informed decision, as that was the primary purpose of the article. Personally, I found it interesting, as I'm sure others also, that there does seem to be a lack of clear examples demonstrating "sujud" means "physical prostration" in Quran, even though it is used many times referring to humans doing SJD.
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Wakas on June 10, 2013, 10:29:46 PM
peace brother Optimist,

Thank you for the reply.

Perhaps it would help if you better understand what I mean by the regular/timed salat, as to me, it is obviously a physical act - although I do not like to use that term, as I do not say things like "physical charity" for example. It just sounds odd. See here (http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm).

In 4:102 I primarily take "'tadaAAoo / lay down'" (referring to arms) literally, whilst you seem to take it as referring to having them close by or not, not necessarily holding them. Fair enough.

I struggle to envisage an illness/rain that stops one holding a sword for example (or having it close by as you imply) but one can still physically prostrate etc. If you can, fair enough.

I reject your point (2) for the reasons I mention in the article. I'm not sure if you have understood the point however.


Re: morning and evening
I agree that an "all the time" interpretation is possible. That is why I said "seemingly". My main evidence for a minimum of two daily regular/timed salat are not those verses you referenced however.
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Joseph Islam on June 11, 2013, 02:42:37 AM
Thanks for the discussion.

You are most welcome dear brother  :)

As-salam alaykum.
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Sardar Miyan on June 17, 2013, 05:41:01 AM
 Salam Where is Optimists post to which Wakas is replying?
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Truth Seeker on June 17, 2013, 05:45:09 AM
Salaam Sardar Miyan,

Please see the first page of this thread. Thanks

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=477.0
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Wakas on February 10, 2014, 02:51:29 AM
Dear brother Joseph,
salaam/peace.

Bold and underline emphasis mine:
If we are going to challenge any position, traditional or otherwise, it is my humble view that the Quranic evidence has to be unequivocal, clear and cogent to contest it. I have till date failed to see any such evidence and neither have you provided any.

Thank you for your posts. With respect, I find absolutely no credibility in your contentions which I appreciate is for other readers to consider for their own.

I have written a more detailed article listing the many problems in your 5 salat daily article, as well as other articles, here:

The common problems with 5 salat daily timings as per The Quran
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html

It is hoped that this article will allow readers to weigh and consider information more accurately. All feedback is welcome, especially corrections. Thanks.


#####

Quote from: Joseph Islam"
Unless we Muslims change ourselves first and are prepared to unlearn and relearn for the sake of seeking TRUTH, we shall have little hope for liberation from the dark abyss of ignorance which has become our greatest nemesis.
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: AbbsRay on February 10, 2014, 03:23:07 AM
Salaam Wakas,

I am just going to give you a FACT from the link you posted that is your own writting and beliefs I assume?

And do not follow what you have no knowledge of; surely the hearing, the sight and the heart, all of these, shall be questioned about that. [17:36]
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Joseph Islam on February 10, 2014, 04:35:15 AM
Dear brother Joseph,
salaam/peace.

Bold and underline emphasis mine:
If we are going to challenge any position, traditional or otherwise, it is my humble view that the Quranic evidence has to be unequivocal, clear and cogent to contest it. I have till date failed to see any such evidence and neither have you provided any.

Thank you for your posts. With respect, I find absolutely no credibility in your contentions which I appreciate is for other readers to consider for their own.

I have written a more detailed article listing the many problems in your 5 salat daily article, as well as other articles, here:

The common problems with 5 salat daily timings as per The Quran
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html

It is hoped that this article will allow readers to weigh and consider information more accurately. All feedback is welcome, especially corrections. Thanks.


#####

Quote from: Joseph Islam"
Unless we Muslims change ourselves first and are prepared to unlearn and relearn for the sake of seeking TRUTH, we shall have little hope for liberation from the dark abyss of ignorance which has become our greatest nemesis.



Wallahi akhi, I have exhausted this topic over and over again. I truly have. I have debated this topic on various social platforms over and over again over many years. As you know I have even exhausted my discussion with you on this topic on this forum in depth. I have written dedicated articles on this subject and debated them. With utmost respect to you and others that want to continue to discuss this topic with me, I am almost truly expired when it comes to debating this topic.

If you feel you should pray 2, then please do. If others feel they should pray 3, please do. If one believes they don't need to pray, then their matter is with their Lord.

I believe the expectation to establish salat 5 times a day is clear from the Quran and I am happy to establish worship to my Lord 5 times a day. I invite my brothers and sisters to at least pray!

With respect, my humble efforts, my work, my commitments, my research, my striving in the broadest sense for the sake of God, expand much further than this topic amongst Quran-only groups.

Therefore, for now, I leave you with my deepest respects and I truly trust that you will appreciate and respect my sentiments and prerogative. I very much hope you will  :)

As-salam alaykum


RELATED SECTION:

[1] PRAYERS
http://quransmessage.com/articles/prayer%20FM3.htm
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: AbbsRay on February 10, 2014, 05:00:27 AM
Salaam Wakas,

If Allah does not call the prayer by the name we know today, it does not mean it is automatically 2 or three for the ones He spells out by the names we know today as they are. He is listing the times, if you wanna call it El wusta, two end of the night, two in the afternoon...whatever... He is giving you the times and each time or as a combined description it is five mandatory prayers He is commanding us to do. Study the ENTIRE Quran, not look for just what He says about Prayer, He is telling you how to look at the words He is saying elsewhere that has nothing to do with the prayers to help one understand how to thinbk about what He is saying.
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Wakas on February 10, 2014, 06:23:02 AM
Dear brother Joseph,
salaam/peace.

Thanks for the reply.

Unfortunately, I cannot give your reply respect until the following is clarified.

Your reply clearly implies that you have had exhaustive discussions on this subject, however, in your article there are some clear and irrefutable errors that remain (see points 6, 10, 12, 15, 16). Thus there can only be two options:

1) In these exhaustive discussions you allude to, these errors have been pointed out to you, but you have decided to keep these errors in your article.

or

2) The exhaustive discussions you allude to may not have covered some points, thus you were unaware of the errors, and if errors are pointed out to you, you are of those that respond/correct them.


Now, I am confident I know you well enough to know it is not (1). You, like myself, are a truthseeker, and a truthseeker cannot and will never tolerate propagating clear errors in their work. This is perhaps why you said: "...I am almost truly expired when it comes to debating this topic."

A truthseeker never expires in their pursuit of the truth. So please, let myself and forum readers know which is it: (1) or (2)?

Then I can consider giving your reply the respect it deserves, from one akhi to another. Also, feel free to take your time, we are all busy.  :)
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Joseph Islam on February 10, 2014, 06:54:56 AM
My dear brother Wakas,

With respect, please can we leave it to the readers to decide as to who has errors in their views. My views don't have errors simply because you have decided to write a document and say so. That, as I am sure you will appreciate would be an arrogant assertion.

To be perfectly honest, I haven't even read your article yet.

As readers I am sure will appreciate, I must use my time wisely and simply cannot be dragged into a discussion / debate just because someone decides to challenge my view or write a document. A truth-seeker has many responsibilities dear brother and that includes use of their time wisely for the sake of God (as they best understand). Furthermore, they do not engage in endless disputes but rather, attempt to reach common ground.

I truly feel that I have given you so much time on this topic and have always been willing to engage with you. The debate is here in public for everyone to read and scrutinise and I parted with my humble perspectives with what I felt were clear arguments why your approach was fundamentally flawed. (Please see the start of this thread).

Now if time and will ever permits, God willing I may revisit your assertions once again and deal with your contentions again. However, with respect, it is not because you demand it or claim that errors have been pointed out with a view to drag / psychologically coerce me into a debate, but because I feel I can allocate proper time to it and I see value for doing so for the benefit of myself and others, Insha'Allah.

With respect, I just do not feel that you have presented anything new (since you first discussed this matter with me on the salaatforum over 2 years ago, till now). Therefore, I have become quaintly disillusioned and somewhat demotivated with your arguments and approach on this particular topic. (Notwithstanding the areas we agree).

But of course, if and when I do have a look at your arguments again and I see points worthy of response / correction - of course I will. I am sure you know me by now.

You said:

Unfortunately, I cannot give your reply respect until the following is clarified.

I gave you respect, regardless. But dear brother, I am very disappointed and saddened that you did not receive my reply with the general courtesy I extended to you and allow me the prerogative not to engage for the time being, for the reasons that I cited and I feel are important.

Please let us leave it here brother Wakas for now  :)

Peace and regards,
Joseph
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Joseph Islam on February 10, 2014, 07:56:50 AM
Dear brother,

After my last post, I decided to have a quick peruse of your article to see if there was anything new, but once again became  disillusioned after your very first point.

You said:

1) B, C, D.
Quote from article: "This article will attempt to show that not only are the 5 prayers strongly alluded to (and sometimes mentioned by name)..."
and
Quote: "The Fajr prayer is actually mentioned by name in the Quran as is the Isha prayer..."

The first point to note is that the author openly admits names of some salat are given (i.e. fajr and isha), yet nowhere in the article is it considered why only these two are named.



With respect, what you have failed to note is that there is a related article below entitled 'Are there 3 or 5 Prayers in the Day?' In it I have clearly stated:

Where the Quran has mentioned the names of 'prayer', it has not named them with a view to establish them. Rather, the named prayers are referred to indirectly as a reference point while dealing with other matters. In one case, it is singled out requiring special attention.
 
In verse 24:58, where the names of the prayer ‘Salaat-il-Fajri’ and ‘Salaat-il-Isha’ do appear, they are referred to by virtue of them being reference points when certain groups of people require permission at times of undress / privacy.

I further mention: "To establish prayer, the Quran never makes use of 'names'. Rather, when it instructs believers to 'establish prayer' it does so by referring to the periods of the day."

In the final thoughts of that article, I mention:

"The Quran refers to establishing prayer (aqimi-salata) by referring to the periods of the day and not by reference to their names. Names of particular prayers in the Quran have only been cited as reference points and to emphasise a particular prayer and not with a view to establish them."

Now my dear brother Wakas, I would not like to ‘hazard a guess’ at this stage how much effort will once again be required to deal with all your other queries if this the kind of points I am going to have to deal with. However, God willing and time permitting, I will go through them if I can.

With peace,
Joseph


Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Wakas on February 10, 2014, 07:55:17 PM
Dear brother Joseph,
salaam/peace.

No need to be "disillusioned", as I never said everything in the updated article was new content. However, I did highlight points that were "clear and irrefutable" errors (see points 6, 10, 12, 15, 16). I would have thought if one's time was limited, one would begin with these points first.

I do not expect you to discuss again the points we have already discussed (or for other reasons). I will even help you out by highlighting those points: 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 11, 13, 14. You don't have to address these ones if you do not wish to. Please note just because I have said we have discussed these points does not mean I found your answers to these points satisfactory.

Perhaps I could have clarified at the beginning that not all the content was new. In any case, as I said, take your time. In the meantime, I recommend forum members to read the article, and they may also wish to begin with points 6, 10, 12, 15 and 16, and determine if they are errors or not, and report back here. I'm sure br. Joseph and myself will appreciate some external legwork being done in this pursuit of truth. I know certainly, I like all the help I can get.

Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Saba on February 10, 2014, 09:10:35 PM
Salaam Wakas ...from what I can tell, the only person really uncomfortable with their position may be you...it seems you are looking for validation ...that is why you keep putting out these challenges on different forums... I mean look at this thread ...

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606088.msg347459#msg347459

I totally agree with what Mazhar said to you ..

Quote
"the challenge in the manner requested" is in fact no challenge but is based on ignoring the first step of understanding a language and extracting meanings.

.. who (Mazhar) by the way has his own website on quran translation, comments on the http://corpus.quran.com/ website and imho is much better than you in understanding arabic..

http://www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/eng%20article.htm

Why do you think you think the thread became deflated after what ... 6 pages? u see .. ppl give you their reasons .. but because they don't fit in with your 2 prayer a day method .. you dismiss it .... Anyway ...good luck! I can't speak for anyone else .. but I think enough is said about your view on 2 salat. Just take this as feedback .... nothing more ...Saba  8) :)


Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Wakas on February 10, 2014, 11:19:06 PM
salaam saba,

...it seems you are looking for validation ...that is why you keep putting out these challenges on different forums...

Unevidenced assertion. I recommend reading up on:
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/poisoning-the-well.html
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/circumstantial-ad-hominem.html
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/personal-attack.html

Quote
imho is much better than you in understanding arabic..

Most likely true, however I recommend reading up on:
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html

Tell us saba, does Quran say those who know Arabic best will understand it best? If so, please provide the verse.

Even if we both agree that knowledge of Arabic is important, it is only one element used to derive an accurate understanding. I have already discussed in some detail about the other elements (http://www.quran434.com/study-method.html).


In any case, I feel I should clarify, when I requested forum members to participate in this thread, I meant in an evidence-based manner, actually based on the updated article, not with unevidenced/fallacious commentary.
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Joseph Islam on February 11, 2014, 12:18:00 AM
In any case, as I said, take your time.

As-salam alaykum brother Wakas.

Thanks for your reply.

As I mentioned in my previous post, God willing and time permitting, I will go through them if I can.

Your brother in faith.
Joseph
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: AbbsRay on February 11, 2014, 01:16:53 AM
Salaam Wakas,

I am confused on your way of thinking... You do not believe in the hadith yet you are taking and referring on words in Hadith writings, and a Quran that was written by a believer of those writings and even acknowledges in his quran that he used words from the hadith that refer to the verses in the Quran because it is better explained. You also have reference of articles about 2 prayers and base that from what I saw on what writers of the hadith explains. You are going off  "Early and Morning Prayers in Early Islam, where the author is going off Hadith that have truth to them because it is a history written by God knows who and after the prophets death hundreds of years? They even put the Prophet ordered the prayer of this and that, asir and naming different ones, so if you believe in Allahs and his words when He tells you Muhummed followed what Prophet Abrahim did, which is how we pray the 5 prayers and the ones Allah refers to in the Quran by time mainly and some by name.

 

Another refrence you are giving is Abdul Mannan Omar.. This is what He says...

 


"The etymology, the function, and wherever applicable

the abbreviations are also given from the most authentic sources,
 
with explanatory notes, grammatical comments, and examples in
 
phrase and poetry. Towards this end, authentic scholarly works
 
in the sciences of

Hadîth, Tafsîr, and Islamic History have been
 
included. The result is a reliable and authentic knowledge and
 
explanation of the etymology and meanings of the Qur'ânic words"

Instead of studying the Quran, and believing it is COMPLETE, EVERYTHING IS IN IT, you turn to people who ridicule the Rasool and Allah in their satanic fabrications and writings?

Still you refer to Ibn Kathir Quran tafsir where mijority of his explanation of the verses out if the Quran are completely wrong. No one and I mean now one knows what Allah means or the History of the past except what Allah tells us and the Rasool is Dead, we can not ask him. You are just trying to justify your views which is dangerous. You are no different than following hadith even worse in my view brother and I say that without seeming to attack you, you got on the right foot seeing that the Hadith is not part of the religion, yet you want to use it to get your justification to give your view merit? When Allah's words are right in front of you? Dictionaries, quran corpse and many other explanations are WRONG, WRONG AND MORE WRONG!!! These people you are getting yoru information about do not even understand the Quran. What strikes me is they write books about Quran even in English and they do not understand that the Rasool wrote the Quran in his own hands, That not to accept any other sources but the Quran, and I can list many more, you expect anyone to believe their word?  You are connected to the freeminds.org.. I am sorry, that is nothing short of a new invented religion and not Islam.


Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Saba on February 11, 2014, 03:09:19 AM
Tell us saba, does Quran say those who know Arabic best will understand it best? If so, please provide the verse.

Even if we both agree that knowledge of Arabic is important, it is only one element used to derive an accurate understanding. I have already discussed in some detail about the other elements (http://www.quran434.com/study-method.html).

salaams ..I never said that those who know Arabic will understand the Qur'an the best. However, an arab or anyone that knows arabic will know arabic words / grammar better than those who don't.

.......... br Mazhar on the free-minds link challenged your understanding with proof or 'evidence' as you like to call it..... Now I am interested to see what your reply is...do you have a rebuttal to his view? can you prove to me and other readers on this forum that your view is better than his??

Quote
"the challenge in the manner requested" is in fact no challenge but is based on ignoring the first step of understanding a language and extracting meanings.

The first step is to determine the word as to which part of speech it relates and to identify the phrases.

صَلَاةِ الْفَجْرِ  and صَلَاةِ الْعِشَاءِ are possessive phrases.

Phrase: It is a string of words that form a constituent and so function as a single unit in the syntax of a sentence. A phrase is lower on the grammatical hierarchy than a clause. These are compounds, in Arabic الْمُرَكَّبَاتُ. When two or more words are joined they constitute a Phrase [مركب ناقص] or [مركب تام] a Sentence-جُمْلَةٌ.

In English, possessive words or phrases exist for nouns and most pronouns, as well as some noun phrases. These can play the roles of determiners (also called possessive adjectives when corresponding to a pronoun) or of nouns.

Possessive determiners constitute a sub-class of determiners which modify a noun by attributing possession (or other sense of belonging) to someone or something. They are also known as possessive adjectives.

In Arabic possessive phrase is called:

أَلإضَافَةُ ٱلْحَقِيقِيَّةُ
   [literally: annexation, addition, or attachment] Possessive/Relative Phrase-"the Construct"

Salat is time bound. Time is determined by the movement of the Sun. The above two words are NOT the names, but possessive phrases-single unit where the second noun with definite article is indicative of the point in time. Point in time does not mean duration.

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606088.msg347459#msg347459


Saba  :)



Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Wakas on February 11, 2014, 04:53:03 AM
w/salaam Abbsrayray,

I am confused on your way of thinking...

I will attempt to clarify, but please note, such posts may be limited in future.

You mention that I refer to Ibn Kathir, which I do, but for a specific and clear reason, allow me to quote myself and pay very close attention to the words in red:

Quote
Background information:
Traditional Islamic history openly admits that before the alleged "isra & miraj" (night journey & ascension) story involving prophet Muhammad in 17:1, there were only two salat daily, or perhaps 2 + 1 extra during the night, see sources: famous Traditional scholar Ibn Kathir and academic article dedicated to this topic. For those unfamiliar with the alleged isra & miraj story, please use a search engine. For a possible explanation of 17:1 as per Quran, please see here. Thus, according to tradition, after this event there became 5 daily salat.

The above was written to simply give readers a little background information on the origins of the 5 salat daily according to Traditional Islamic sources.

Nowhere do I ever say this is my view.

My use of words such as "alleged" make it clear I do not consider it true, or at the very least questionable.

The part in blue is a reference I give to my own view, as per Quran.

#####

You then go on to mention that I reference Abdul Mannan Omar and since he makes use of traditional sources this somehow means I am discredited/wrong or also using them.
Firstly, to my knowledge every Classical Arabic dictionary makes use, in part, of Traditional Islamic sources, e.g. Lane's Lexicon (which brother Joseph uses many times for example), when they discuss meanings. Perhaps the first one (kitab al ayn) didn't, I dont know as I haven't researched it, but certainly would have used non-Quranic sources.

Just because I reference it, does not mean my points are based on it. And in case there was any doubt, one simply has to read all 20 points I make in my article, and it will be blatantly obvious that not once do I reference a Traditional Islamic source, e.g. Hadith.

The only time I do mention them is in passing, as a two sentence sidenote, quote:

"As a side note, "wusta" has never been a reference/name for a salat in Traditional Islamic history as far as I'm aware. And for those that argue it refers to a clear/known period of the day, they should note that there is variance in Traditional sources about which salat it may refer to."

I recommend reading very carefully, multiple times if necessary.
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Wakas on February 11, 2014, 06:25:51 AM
w/salaam saba,

.......... br Mazhar on the free-minds link challenged your understanding with proof or 'evidence' as you like to call it..... Now I am interested to see what your reply is...do you have a rebuttal to his view? can you prove to me and other readers on this forum that your view is better than his??

It is actually quite tiresome having a discussion with br. Mazhar, not only due to language barrier but also he is often vague/indirect/evasive. As can be seen from this (http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605661.0) thread where I had to remind him several times about answering my points, and when claimed to have finished answering 8 pages later, I didn't understand much of what he wrote, particularly the latter answers. And it's not only me, this is regularly said about br. Mazhar's posts. I created a summary thread here (http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605766.0).

I fail to see his objection in the quote you gave, as it is irrelevant to my request. However, I do find it telling you seem to think it is worthy of a reply. In any case, I have replied on that thread (http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606088.msg347482#msg347482) on FM, in an attempt to clarify.

 
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: AbbsRay on February 11, 2014, 08:10:25 AM
Salaam Wakas,

Please go listen to verses 3:7, 2:26 and 74:26-31

Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: JoeShaer on February 12, 2014, 03:56:29 AM
Greetings of Salam to you dear all,

I would like to share with you all my understanding of the number of Salat in the Quran.


INTRODUCTION

Despite the fifteen centuries since Muslems have been praying five times a day, there is still some debate about the number of Salats (prayers) mentioned in the Quran.    Some people argue that since there are 3 Salats mentioned by name in the Quran - dawn, middle, evening (24:58, 2:238) -  and thus they pray only 3 times per day.   Another group claims there are 2 Salats mentioned in the Quran because they interpret ‘Salatul Wusta’ as 'the best prayer' and not as an additional 'middle' prayer.

{24:58} O you who acknowledge, let those whom are under your contract and have not yet attained puberty request your permission regarding three times: Before the Dawn Salat, and when you take off your attire from the heat of the noon, and after the Evening Salat...

{2:238} Preserve the Salat, and the Middle Salat (Salatul Wusta), and stand devoutly for God

However, when we read {24:58} and {2:238} we see that these verses speak of matters concerning private times for parents and about preserving the Salats.  These verses do not speak of when to 'establish prayer' (AQIM AL SALAT) and therefore have nothing to do with the number of Salats we need to observe.
The objective of this article is to show that God commands us to AQIM AL SALAT (Establish the Salat) during five specific times of the day in the Quran.


METHODOLOGY (THE QURAN IS THE ONLY REFERENCE)

The evidence for the five daily Salats will be clearly demonstrated using the Quran alone as the only reference. After all, the Quran is complete {7:3}, detailed {6:114} and contains all our religious practices {5:48}:
{7:3} Follow what was sent down to you all from your Lord, and do not follow besides Him any supporters. Little do you remember!

{6:114} "Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this book sufficiently detailed?" Those to whom We have given the book know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.

{5:48} We have sent down to you the book with truth, authenticating what is present of the book and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, a structure. Had God willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you, so advance the good deeds. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute.



VERSES ABOUT ESTABLISHING SALAT

There are only two verses in the entire Quran which commands the believer to AQIM AL SALAT (establish the Salat) at specific times throughout the day;

 In {11:114} we learn the number of Salats we must establish, and in {17:78} we learn precise duration for each Salat.

{11:114} Establish the Salat at the TARAFAY of the day and ZULAFAN from the night.

{17:78} Establish  the Salat LIDULUK of the sun until GHASAQ of the night and Quran at dawn.

Please note: one should not confuse SALAT with SABBIH (glorify). Some scholars have attempted to derive the timings of Salat from verses that speak of SABBIH or glorification (see 20:130). This is an invalid approach because SABBIH is not the same as AQIM AL SALAT.



THE NUMBER OF SALAT IN THE QURAN

God Almighty commands us:

{11:114} Establish the Salat at the TARAFAY (two portions) of the day and ZULAFAN (near parts) from the night.

Firstly, we must recognize that 11:114 commands us to establish the Salat during the Day (NAHAR) as well as at Night (LAYL).

Day is the time when the sun is revealed and the night time is when the sun is covered. This is evident in {91:1-4} where God says, "By the sun and its brightness... and the Day which reveals it, and the night which covers it...".


Secondly, in 11:114 the keywords TARAFAY and ZULAFAN enable us to determine the number of Salats mentioned.  But first, we must learn a very basic rule of Arabic grammar in plurals:

In Arabic, a noun can be 'singular (one)', 'dual (two)', or 'plural (three or more)'.

The words TARAFAY and ZULAFAN in 11:114 are grammatically constructed in the following plural forms:

TARAFAY = dual (2)

ZULAFAN = plural (3 or more)


Putting it all together, and from a purely grammatical perspective, we see that God commands the believers to establish the Salat at TARAFAY (2) of the day, and ZULAFAN (3+) from the night:

{11:114} Establish the Salat at the TARAFAY [dual: 2 Salats] of the day and ZULAFAN [plural: 3 or more Salats] from the night.

So it is without a doubt that - as it has been practiced by Muslims since the time of prophet Muhammad (pbuh) - there are 5 total Salats ordained by God to the Muslims.



Linguistics of 11:114

TARAFAY

{11:114} Establish the Salat at the TARAFAY (two portions) of the day...

TARAFAY: comes from the root Ta Ra Fa and it means 'end, side, edge, or portion'... TARAFAY in 11:114 is dual, its plural form is ATRAF, and singular form is TARAF.

Some people translate 'TARAFAY of the day' as 'two ends of the day' being the dawn and sunset times.  However, this is an incorrect interpretation due to the following reasons:

1.   'Dawn' and 'Sunset' are NOT part of the Day but they are part of the Night. The command in 11:114 is to establish the Salat at TARAFAY of the Day.

2.   As far as the Quran is concerned, the Day has more than two edges or ATRAF (ends/edges/portions). This is evident in 20:130:

{20:130} So be patient to what they are saying and glorify the grace of your Lord before the rising of the sun (Dawn), and before its setting (Sunset), and from the early part of the night (Night) glorify, and at the ATRAF (edges/portions) of the day that you may be content.

In 20:130 God excludes the timing of Dawn, Sunset, and Night from the ‘ATRAF (edges/portions) of the day’.  Thus, TARAFAY of the day in 11:114 would mean two portions of the Day which do not include Dawn, Sunset, or Night.         
 

Therefore 'TARAFAY of the day' in 11:114 is best translated as 'two portions of the day' because this conforms to the above noted Quranic verses.



ZULAFAN

{11:114} Establish the Salat at... ZULAFAN (near parts) from the night....

ZULAFAN: comes from the root ZA LA FA and it means "close proximity or nearness"...

Most interpreters translate 'ZULAFAN from the night' as "approaches of the night". Although this is a correct translation, it does not demonstrate the precise Arabic plurals function which affects how we understand this verse.

As mentioned earlier, the word ZULAFAN in 11:114 is plural and therefore there are 3 'near parts' of the night in which the Salat must be established.

These 3 ‘near parts’ of the night reflect the 3 primary degrees of darkness in the night:

1)   Sunset (night mixes into day)
2)   Night (absolute darkness)
3)   Dawn (day mixes into day)





SALAT TIMING IN THE QURAN

{17:78} Establish the Salat LIDULUK (repeated-declining) of the sun until GHASAQ (darkness) of the night and the Quran at Dawn...

In {17:78} we are given the timing and duration of each of the 5 Salats:

•   LIDULUK of the sun = 3 Salats. The word LIDULUK means the repeated 'declining' of the sun which occurs 3 times: noon, afternoon, and at sunset.

The phrase 'LIDILUK of the sun' coincides with 'TARAFAY (two portions) of the day' and the 1st part of the 'ZULAFAN (near parts) of the night' in 11:114.

•   GHASAQ of the night = 1 Salat. The word GHASAQ means 'absolute darkness' and this occurs at Night when the sky turns completely dark.

The phrase 'GHASAQ (darkness) of the night' coincides with the 2nd part of the 'ZULAFAN (near parts) from the night' in 11:114.

•   Quran at Dawn = 1 Salat. Linguistically, the phrase WA QURAN AL FAJR (Quran at dawn) emphasizes establishing the Salat as well as reading the Quran at dawn.

The phrase WA QURAN AL FAJR (Quran at Dawn) coincides with the 3rd part of the 'ZULAFAN (near parts) from the night' in 11:114.



LINGUISTICS OF 17:78

LIDULUK
{17:78} Establish the Salat LIDULUK (repeated declining) of the sun...

LIDULUK comes from the root DA LA KA and it generally means 'falling or being pushed from one place to another'... As such, the "DULUK of the sun" is simply 'the declining' of the sun from its position in the sky into the next position. This declining begins at noon.

However, because the word DULUK in 17:78 is accompanied by the preposition 'LI' (LIDULUK) this signifies a repeated process consecutively throughout one day. In other words, the 'LI' in LIDULUK means that the sun will 'decline' more than one time; at noon, afternoon, and sunset.

The 'LIDULUK (repeated-declining) of the sun' explains precisely the 'TARAFAY (two portions) of the day' as well as the 1st part of 'ZULAFAN (near parts) from the night' in 11:114.



GHASAQ

{17:78} Establish the Salat ... until GHASAQ (darkness) of the night...

GHASAQ comes from the root GHA SA QA and it means 'darkness'... As mentioned earlier, the night (LAYL) begins at sunset. The fact that God says GHASAQ AL LAYAL (Darkness of the night) means that we are to establish the Salat when the sky turns completely dark.

To establish the Salat until 'GHASSAQ (darkness) of the night' precisely coincides with the 2nd part of 'ZULAFAN (near parts) from the night' in 11:114.



QURAN AT DAWN

{17:78} Establish the Salat... and [establish the] QURAN at dawn

Linguistically, the word 'and' in this verse is tied to the word 'establish' so the phrase '...and Quran at dawn' is a twofold command: Establishing salat at dawn, and establishing reading Quran at dawn.



NAMES OF THE SALAT IN THE QURAN

Besides the Dawn (fajr) and Evening (isha) Salats (24:58), the Quran does not provide names for the rest of the 3 Salats. The names of the Salat are therefore left up to us (the humans).

Keep in mind that what we name each of our Salat is ultimately of insignificance because these are just mere labels; they are for conventional purposes. What matters is establishing them at their appropriate times (4:103). Traditionally, the 5 Salats are named as:
Noon (thuhr)
Afternoon ('asr)
Sunset (magrib)
Night (Isha)
Dawn (fajr)



CONCLUSIONS

•   There are 5 specified times of Salat mentioned in the Quran ordained by the straightforward command to AQIM AL SALAH (Establish the Salat).
•   {11:114} speaks of the number of Salats:
   {11:114} Establish the Salat at the TARAFAY of the day and ZULAFAN from the night.
   TARAFAY = dual (2 Salats)
    ZULAFAN = plural (3 Salats)

•   {17:78} speaks of the duration of each of the five Salats

{17:78} Establish the Salat LIDULUK of the sun until GHASSAQ of the night and Quran at dawn.
   LIDULUK (repeated-declining) = 3 Salats (noon, afternoon, sunset)
   GHASAQ (darkness) =  1 Salat (night)
   Quran at Dawn = 1 Salat (dawn)



.



Peace
Joe S.







Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Saba on February 15, 2014, 09:30:24 AM
Salaams br Wakas.. I know 'sujud' was discussed at the start of this thread and  br. Joseph already responded to you on this....but  I also found a parallel and helpful discussion where similar problems were being highlighted with your method with words / the qur'an.. sjd etc and the way you study the qur'an. I really liked Mohsin7's response to you which I think for me really highlights your weaknesses in your arguments..(no disrespect intended) ...I wanted to share this thread with everyone here too. i think it all goes back to the same problem that i think u are trying to fit one meaning of the work in all contexts. sometimes SJD just means physical prostration!!

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606251.msg347588#msg347588

Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: AbbsRay on February 15, 2014, 11:07:50 AM
Salaam Saba


Oh Boy...loool   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: AbbsRay on February 15, 2014, 12:38:04 PM
Salam Wakas,

I went a step further and copied and pasted you explaination on prostration

When I consider an argument I like to have all the evidence on the table, then weigh up each option and go with the one that is most evidenced/logical.

So, let's sum up:

The Quran has multiple verses wherein humans are doing SJD in which it cannot mean physical prostration. It has no verse wherein humans doing SJD clearly meaning physical prostration.

The Quran clearly says believers are to SJD when Quran is relayed to them. You take this as a non-prostration SJD.
However, when this would occur in salat in 4:102 you take SJD to mean a physical prostration.

Your view on 4:102 requires an unwarranted assumption wherein allegedly God didn't mention SJD in the rain/illness exceptions but it is allegedly included.

A somewhat modified salat performance due to carrying of weapons. For sake of argument, let's say a minor modification.


As I said, theoretically possible, not credible. Readers can make up their own minds however.


Perhaps a larger question, is the can of worms it opens up if one adopts your approach to Quran:



Quote from: Mohsin7

Hence, the physical aspect of Salat with a physical prostration can not be invalidated using the Quran since nowhere does the Quran explicitly say that Salat/SJD are never to be performed physically.



Your reasoning above essentially is "...since nowhere does the Quran say that sjd cannot mean physical prostration".

Well, Quran doesn't say a lot of things, e.g.

The Quran doesn't say that [insert Quranic word here] cannot mean [insert Classical Arabic dictionary meaning here] thus, according to you, it can mean that in a Quran occurrence.

Good luck with that approach. That is not my approach.

Are you kidding me? So what does it mean? You are leading people astray and ONLY an INSANE person would EVER believe anything you say about the Quran verses and their meaning. I am sorry, but you are gone astray and CLEARLY MISGUIDED than from what you started out to be. PLEASE stop your corruption of Allah's words!!!!!

I am sorry brother, the Shaytan has a hold of you and has his chains wrapped all around you. Do you not FEAR Allah at all? I simply would Ask Allah for forgiveness brother, repent, and ask Him to guide you.... Your HEART is sealed from Him. It is only evident.
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Sardar Miyan on February 19, 2014, 02:24:48 AM
Physical  Prostration.  48:29
--------------------------------
مُّحَمَّدٌ رَّسُولُ اللَّهِ وَالَّذِينَ مَعَهُ أَشِدَّاءُ عَلَى الْكُفَّارِ رُحَمَاءُ بَيْنَهُمْ تَرَاهُمْ رُكَّعًا سُجَّدًا يَبْتَغُونَ فَضْلًا مِّنَ اللَّهِ وَرِضْوَانًا سِيمَاهُمْ فِي وُجُوهِهِم مِّنْ أَثَرِ السُّجُودِ ذَٰلِكَ مَثَلُهُمْ فِي التَّوْرَاةِ وَمَثَلُهُمْ فِي الْإِنجِيلِ كَزَرْعٍ أَخْرَجَ شَطْأَهُ فَآزَرَهُ فَاسْتَغْلَظَ فَاسْتَوَىٰ عَلَىٰ سُوقِهِ يُعْجِبُ الزُّرَّاعَ لِيَغِيظَ بِهِمُ الْكُفَّارَ وَعَدَ اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ مِنْهُم مَّغْفِرَةً وَأَجْرًا عَظِيمًا
48:29
Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah, and those with him are firm of heart against the unbelievers, compassionate among themselves; you will see them bowing down, prostrating themselves, seeking grace from Allah and pleasure; their marks are in their faces because of the effect of prostration; that is their description in the Taurat and their description in the Injeel; like as seed-produce that puts forth its sprout, then strengthens it, so it becomes stout and stands firmly on its stem, delighting the sowers that He may enrage the unbelievers on account of them; Allah has promised those among them who believe and do good, forgiveness and a great reward.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Salam All, Usually some people who oppose Five times Salath say that Physical Prostration is Immodest in the mixed gathering in Mosque where men & women offer Salath. Only one Ayaat mentioned above is enough to refute their claim.The meaning of Sujda may be submission but it refers to physical prostration in Quran. Some people quote Hasan Basry to have expressed Sajda being immodest which on not true as when we don't believe in Ahadith how can we believe one's personal view
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: AbbsRay on February 19, 2014, 03:15:37 AM
Salaam Sardar,

When praying in a mosque, male or female praying next to each other or whatever... When they are prostrating their eyes usually will be looking down and having full focus on the prayer and connecting with Allah. So people using excuses as immodest are ONLY fake believers and misguided in my opnion.

The 5 prayers are all contact prayer which is bowing and prostration... Memorizing Allah throughout the day or night also is different and not the 5 prayers... People just want to justify things to make it less of an obligatory or their egos got in the way and they have gone astray and think they are on the right path.

If people can't control their hormones looking at people's rears when they are worshipping their lord and completely submitting physically, emotionally and completely mentally than there's only one thing left to say... Sexual deviants who's eyes, mind and thoughts are always wondering.. Lol

I read one of the forums on here about some muslims who do not believe in the Miricles mentioned in the Quran... Doesn't surprise me... they are not really believers. It's that straight forward.
It doesn't mean when someone doesn't understand the verses... They start making definitions to explain the verse(s).


Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Sardar Miyan on February 19, 2014, 08:59:52 AM
The Bro& Sisters discussing the Five daily Salath may have to observe by the practical & historical aspect also. While Quran tells about Five Daily Salath & Haj we also see the continuity ( Tawaatur ) of the same right from the period of our Prophet  to the present time. The Haj & Salath are being performed continiously without break. Therefore there are Five Daily Salath which is practical side of Quranic Revealtion and all Muslims have to accept & follow implicitly without arguing themselves. There is no point in prolonged discussions & arguments when we see the performance five daily prayers is done. Thanks for sharing.

Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Wakas on February 19, 2014, 09:54:44 PM
salaam sardar,

Only one Ayaat mentioned above is enough to refute their claim.The meaning of Sujda may be submission but it refers to physical prostration in Quran.

I recommend reading the article (http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html) referenced:

Quote
48:29 Muhammad is the messenger of God, and those who are with him are stern against the concealers/rejecters/ingrates, but merciful between themselves. You see them inclining/humbling and SuJaD, seeking bounty from God and pleasure/approval. Their distinction is in their faces/attentions/considerations/wills/purposes, from the trace/teaching/influence of the SuJuD. Such is their example in the Torah. And their example in the Injeel is like a seed/crop which sends forth its shoot then strengthened it then becomes thick then stands upon its stem, pleasing to the sowers. That He may enrage the rejecters/concealers with them. God promises those who believe and do good works a forgiveness and a great reward.

It is interesting to note the preposition "fi" (in) not "ala" (on), making it "their distinction/mark is IN their faces/wills/purposes/considerations". Minority usage of "fi" can mean on/at however.
The word "athar" (root: Alif-Tha-Ra) basically means "that which is left behind from something" hence its meanings such as trace/mark/impression/teaching/influence and is not necessarily a physical thing, see 5:46, 18:6, 20:96, 30:50.
The word "seema" (root: Siin-Waw-Miim) means an identifying feature (e.g. could be the way someone looks or acts) see 2:273, 7:46, 7:48, 47:30, 55:41. Perhaps the majority of people would not have a trace of prostration on their face from physically prostrating in prayer for example, even if it was done many times per day, so this understanding, whilst superficially plausible, actually falls short. Some translators, e.g. Asad, do not take it to mean a physical mark on one's face.
It should be noted that "inclining and SJD" seems to relate to "seeking bounty from God and pleasure/approval" whose other occurrences relate to worldly benefits/provisions.
It should be noted that in the prior context, 48:25, it clearly implies some believers were unknown/unrecognisable, which makes it even more unlikely it is referring to a physical mark on one's face.
The "them" refers to the believers undergoing such growth. It may also imply that actualising oneself under the guidance of God's system leads to self-growth and benefits. There is an implication that the act of SJD can function as a catalyst to such growth, as it leaves an impression/influence upon such a person, thus the demeanor stems from that act/mindset, and results in fruitful growth and reward, and this is the message encapsulated in the example at the end. To achieve such effective growth, one's will/consideration/purpose/attention should be traceable back to the act of SJD.
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Sardar Miyan on February 20, 2014, 12:52:04 AM
Bro Wakas , I wanted our Forum friends to take notice of my ascertion about the Tawaatur ( Continuity) of Salath & Haj which are being performed from the time of our Prophet which is enough for the present generation to believe & uphold the Five Daily Salath but you have not commented on this aspect.
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Wakas on February 20, 2014, 06:03:22 AM
My only comment would be speculation. The Quranic evidence is little, and requires significant interpretation.

If there was such a thing, I'd expect something as important as that would be mentioned in a clear manner.
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Joseph Islam on February 20, 2014, 07:29:19 AM
...I wanted our Forum friends to take notice of my ascertion about the Tawaatur ( Continuity) of Salath & Haj which are being performed from the time of our Prophet which is enough for the present generation to believe & uphold ...

As-salam alaykum brother Sardar

As you will have noted, there is Quranic evidence to support the fact that believers are expected to follow best practice in the form of continuity especially when the establishment of that practice in essence finds provenance in scripture. 

For example, in a dialogue with the Children of Israel, one notes the instruction in the Quran for them to 'bow with those that bow'
 
002.043 (Part)
"... and bow down your heads (Arabic: ir'ka'u) with those who bow down (Arabic: raki'een) (in worship)"

This act of congregational obedience finds historic roots and is propagated en masse. It remains attested since the time of Prophet Abraham (pbuh) (22:26) and would have most likely been followed by all true monotheists generation to generation. Otherwise, the instruction above would have been meaningless.
 
Similarly, in the case of Mary, one notes a historic directive, once again affirming the need for congregational prayer obedience which again was historic in nature.

003.043
"O Mary! Be obedient to your Lord and prostrate and bow down (Arabic: wa-ir'ka'i) with those who bow down (Arabic: raki'een)"

Therefore, to follow 'best practice' does indeed find Quranic support, certainly when such a practice is in line with the guidance proffered by scripture.

Your brother in faith,
Joseph


REFERENCE

[1] THE IMPORTANCE OF CONGREGATIONAL PRAYER
http://quransmessage.com/articles/congregational%20prayer%20FM3.htm
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Sardar Miyan on February 20, 2014, 08:05:30 AM
Thanks I was drawing attention of Bro Wakas while he was asserting on Two Salath daily. Therefore I drew his attention to the best practice of Continivity
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Wakas on February 21, 2014, 03:14:47 AM
salaam brothers Joseph, Sardar, all,

The assumption in your reply to br. Sardar being that "rk3" and "sjd and rk3" refers to a congregational prayer.

Some may not consider the above clear, unequivocal and cogent with regard to Quranic evidence.

Let us all bear in mind that when it comes to alleged continuity of practice, it cannot contradict Quran, thus whatever alleged practice one finds, one should confirm it via Quran regardless.
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Sardar Miyan on February 23, 2014, 12:49:48 AM
Can you explain as to how the continuity of Haj & Salath contradict Quran?Dr Shabbir writes that Salath ( Namaz) was invented by HAROON Rasheed's Mother Kaizaran but earlier to Haroon Rasheed Imam Anas Bin Malik wrote about Salath being performed during the ministry of Prophet. How can one deny this ?
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Wakas on February 23, 2014, 04:38:57 AM
Can you explain as to how the continuity of Haj & Salath contradict Quran?

To do so would require a lengthy discussion. There are elements of each that are problematic in my view and I have discussed these issues on free-minds forum and I wrote an article on al hajj (http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html). A good place to start would be to research those posts and article. Please do not post about al hajj on this thread, as I would like to keep this thread about the timings of the regular/timed salat, and meaning of sujud.
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Sardar Miyan on February 26, 2014, 02:54:42 AM
Please do not direct us as to what to write & what not on this forum be restricted to you own opinion .We dont want to go to free mind forum to go through your blogs. I was just telling the CONTINUITY of Salath & Haj which are part of following
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Saba on March 04, 2014, 12:30:25 PM
Here is another absolutely brilliant response to br Wakas's repeated desire to interpret SJD differently ..... Had to share!



Quote
Salaam Wakas,


Quote
Quran could have clarified if sjd meant physical prostration in 4:102 by saying something similar...


The Quran could have clarified lots of things, and yet it didn't. It didn't clarify what it meant by swimming, running, fighting, nor did it clarify many verses on punishments. Why should the Quran 'clarify' the meaning of a word that everyone already knows? The answer is the opposite - the Quran clarified the non-physical uses of the word which everyone already knew and accepted as being physical. The same way the Quran clarified that "swimming" SBH does not literally mean swimming in water, despite everyone knowing perfectly well that that's what it means.

By your standards and treatment of sujood we should now have to reinterpret yasbahu because God never clarifies that it also means swimming in water.

Quote
Or perhaps in 17:107-109 could have mentioned being on the ground in some way.

It does clarify that. You've just ignored it because you are forcing your own interpretation onto the verses. The meaning of being on the ground is absolutely clear in these verses, and even your idol Mustansir Mir takes this position. I don't know how God could've made it clearer without writing out specifically "get onto the ground people". Sujood is paired with KHRR throughout the Quran.


Quote
Anyone who has read Quran434.com will know otherwise. I relied significantly on Quranic usage, its internal logic etc.

You analyzed every occurrence of the word DRB to argue that DRB can mean something other than 'strike'.

Now you have overwhelming evidence that KHRR means to physically fall, and you ignore it.



Quote
Wrong. See 25:73, which is even quoted in my sjd article.

This can easily be interpreted as a physical action. It goes both ways, but I think the physical action here is a better interpretation.

I interpret it as criticizing the people who go to pray whilst thinking about what they had for lunch that day, or what they want to do. You see these people in the mosques, they do some lightning prayer and leave. The context of the verse is an extended description of the characteristics of the righteous people. Then this verse says:

Those who when they are reminded of their Lord's signs, they do not fall deaf and blind thereat.

Literal: they do not fall on the reminder/verses deaf and blind


I interpret this as a continuation of the description of the righteous people. We are told that the righteous are the ones who stay late into the night in sujood and qiyaam, they pass by trivial talk with dignity, and they do not prostrate when they are reminded to without heart and khushoo3 in a mechanical fashion.

I don't know how else to interpret this verse in a non-physical manner. You argue that KHRR means to be humbled elsewhere in the Quran. How is one humbled deaf and blind? Or the other interpretation is to "fall" on the verses (ayat) as if to attack them. Again, not in line with the context at all. In your article you state that it means to fall on the verses - ie: read them without care, as if deaf and blind. This is ok, it fits, but I don't consider it the correct interpretation.
Clearly the intention here is to warn against mechanical prostration and prayer done without heart. That is why the non-righteous simply "fall" at hearing God's verses, whereas the righteous fall in sujood - because it is not sujood without the emotional component, otherwise it simply becomes falling to the ground deaf and blind.



But let's assume that it does not mean physical falling for the sake of avoiding an argument about this particular verse - we are still left with 6 out of 7 incidences where KHRR definitely means falling.

If we remove all the verses that have KHRR Sujjadan and 17:109, we are left with 7 occurrences.

Of those occurrences KHRR means to physically fall each and every time except for this one that you don't want to interpret as falling. 38:24 is not 100% clear, so let's exclude that. And 34:14 means both falling down and death. (The worm gnaws at his staff so he falls (dies)).

So - we have 6 out of 7 occurrences that clearly mean physical falling, with only 1 verse that is unclear and can be both.

So by your standards, this is a pretty clear indication of what KHRR means.





Quote
In the exampels you gave, can you clarify if they have the same structure as the example we are discussing in 17:107, quote from article:


i.e.
idiom + accusative word


When I find an idiom followed by an accusative adjective I'll let you know. Off the top of my head I can't think of any.





But let's summarize what we know -


1. Like swimming, running, and other Arabic words, the accepted definition of Sujood to pre-Islamic Arabs is prostration. We have examples of pre-Islamic poetry that clearly shows us they thought Sujood = prostration. From the Encyclopaedia of the Quran, Vol. 4 Page 219:

Sujūd was known among the peoples of the Middle East in pre-Islamic times as a gesture of respect at royal courts and as an act of adoration in Christian worship. Pre-Islamic poetry cites a few examples of prostration (sujūd) before a tribal chief in recognition of his superiority and as an expression of one’s submission (cf. Tottoli, Muslim attitudes, 5-34).
The act of prostration hurt the pride (q.v.) of the Arabs (Q 25:60; 7:206; cf. 16:49; 32:15; 68:42-3) because it appeared to them as a humiliating gesture and an alien practice (cf. Kister, Some reports, 3-6).


2. KHRR is used as physically falling in every single other case (or all except one if we accept your contention regarding 25:73)

3. Idioms where the action happens and a non-literal word is added for intensity are common. (I'm so hungry I can eat a horse, it is raining cats and dogs, etc.)


4. The phrase is falling to the chins. lil-adhqaani. Not 3alaa al-adhqaani, which would be the normal way to say it in arabic.


5. We have an actual recorded example of this phrase as a popular Arab saying. It was common enough and well known enough to end up in Lane's Lexicon as an idiom! Lane specifically recorded for us examples of trees and stones falling to their chins!


6. You've challenged me to explain how the idiom could work and I have explained it. In turn, please explain verses such as 19:58

إِذَا تُتْلَى عَلَيْهِمْ آيَاتُ الرَّحْمَن خَرُّوا سُجَّدًا وَبُكِيًّا

You are arguing that sujjadan is a metaphor, or a non-literal meaning of the accepted word, whereas bakiyyan (crying) is literally physical crying. God never clarifies how to cry, just as he never clarifies how to perform sujood, and relies on our knowledge of the language. So either we must assume that one is literal and one isn't, or that SJD did not originally mean prostration and there has been a massive conspiracy to get people to perform physical prostration when the original word had no such meaning.



7. The Quran pairs SJD with KHRR repeatedly. 12:100 (kharruu lahu sujjadan), 17:107 (yukhirruuna lilidhqaani sujjadan), 19:58 (kharruu sujjadan wa bakiyyaa), 32:15 (kharruu sujjadan) - why is God using the word "fall" throughout the Quran with SJD to a bunch of people who think SJD means prostration??


8. If the point of KHRR is to express humility in 17:107 and 17:109 and elsewhere, then why not use the many words used in the Quran already for humility?? Why repeat KHRR with sujood so many times instead of saying "humble yourselves sujjadan" ? There are many choices, for example DR3, KHBT, KHSH3, 3NW,



Peace


Words like Sujud are well known to Arabic speaking people all over the world. Even in the Qur'an it can mean physical prostrations...!!!

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606251.30
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Wakas on March 05, 2014, 06:21:04 AM
Dear saba,

Quote from: saba
Words like Sujud are well known to Arabic speaking people all over the world. Even in the Qur'an it can mean physical prostrations...!!!

It is unfortunate that some seem to be unable to read what I write carefully. For example, you will note in my article on sujud nowhere do I state sujud cannot mean prostration, and I even say such body-physical acts can be done. I simply point out that it doesn't seem possible to make a credible argument from Quran that sujud=prostration, and thus during the regular/timed salat.

Again, as with br. Mazhar's post, I find it telling you consider br. ths' post "absolutely brilliant" when it is riddled with errors and logical fallacies (hence why my reply to him was limited, and brought it back to the original point we were discussing).

But I thank you for linking to the thread where the discussion can be read, which was primarily about 4:102 - wherein many people take sujud to mean prostration, whereas myself, br. Joseph and others do not.


Those who listen to what is being said, then follow the best of it.
These are the ones God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.

[Al Quran, 39:18]
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Saba on March 05, 2014, 07:06:25 PM

THEREFORE IN SUMMARY:
 
  • SJD primarily means to show humility, submissiveness, to be humbled, show reverence, salute, honour, pay regards, respects etc
  • Different creations of God show their humility and submissiveness in different ways
  • Physical prostration is only one way humans show their humility (SJD)
  • A physical prostration is not only performed by humans in worship but also out of deep respect for another. However, in a state of prayer to God, a physical rendition of the term is often implied.
[/u]
[/list]

Salaam br. Wakas, I am not sure I agree with you that you and br. Joseph are on the same page here. I re-read the whole of the first page of this thread where you discussed this with him......It seems you cannot accept that a word can have different meanings and as I think you can't speak Arabic, you find that troublesome as you can't determine what word to fit where. ....like an english person will know what a specific word means in various sentences....non-english speaker like a chinese will get confused if he or she only had a dictionary to go on...That is your problem with Arabic.

Anyway,,, I'll re-share the articles below of br. joseph to show what his views are on this..... I see it this way - sjd is prostration when it refers to humans when they revere Allah (swt).... masjid is a place where worshippers do SJD for Allah (swt). simple! you can make it as complex as you like, but that is it for me.  Saba   

REFERENCES:

[1] SAJDA e-TILAWAT - UNDERSTANDING THE TRADITION
http://quransmessage.com/articles/st%20FM3.htm
[2] WHAT IS THE QURANIC SUJUD (PROSTRATION)?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/sujud%20FM3.htm
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Wakas on March 05, 2014, 09:28:47 PM
Dear saba,
 
You quoted reply #9. Please see later in reply #11 where br. Joseph clarified.
 
I asked br. Joseph:
Can you clarify that you do not take the SJD in 4:102 to mean prostration as you said:
"You have respectfully, yet without warrant, inferred a 'physical prostration'. If we simply allow the primary meaning of the word SJD to remain operative (i.e. SJD = humility, pay respect, honour, salute and humble), then salat can end once the spiritual experience of prayer is completed irrespective of whether or not this means a physical prostration."
but then later said
"'Fa'idha sajadu' (Then when they have prostrated)".

Do you mean "then when they have paid respect" or similar?

br. Joseph replied (bold mine):
Yes that is correct. I explained what I meant by 'Then when they have prostrated' as simply referring to 'the condition when they have completed their reverence to God (i.e. their prayer). This may or may not include prostration.
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Saba on March 05, 2014, 10:17:27 PM
Hmmm. Interesting! . Thank u for sharing that. I will go through this thread again to get to the bottom of this. Thanks .br. Wakas. Saba 
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Sardar Miyan on March 06, 2014, 01:39:10 AM
Yes Sister Saba I need your reply after comparison of replies so that we may know the real facts. Thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Sardar Miyan on April 19, 2014, 11:27:55 AM
Salam Sister Saba, Do I have to draw your kind attention to your reply that you would compare replies & come up with reply later. I am waiting for your kind reply in this regard. Thanks
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Saba on April 19, 2014, 08:23:33 PM
Salaam Sardar,

Basically from what I get from all of this is that br. Joseph is saying that 'yes' that the primary meaning of SJD means humility to pay respect, honor etc etc. But it is the context that tells us if a physical prostration is the meaning ... one way of showing respect to Allah (swt) is through physical prostration. No doubt about it ..... IMHO a lot of Qur'anists don't like this real fact. That is why br. joseph  says"the condition when they have completed their reverence to God (i.e. their prayer). This may or may not include prostration."

So this means that physical prostration can also be the correct meaning

Br. Joseph tells us clearly his view in another article that:

Quote
"SJD means to become submissive, humble, to make obeisance, lowly, to pay respect, or to even bend down (bowing) and prostrate. This root word forms other words such as 'Masjid' which is a place where 'SJD' takes place."

Quote
"A study of the Quranic narratives clearly reveal that the term 'Sujud' admits different shades of meanings and carries different nuances depending on context. The term 'Sujud' does not always imply a physical prostration to the ground."

He also said in a post which I quoted earlier that ....

Quote
"A physical prostration is not only performed by humans in worship but also out of deep respect for another. However, in a state of prayer to God, a physical rendition of the term is often implied."

...also as Sword showed here ----> http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1200.msg5571#msg5571 in another post ...in verse 48.29, a physical prostration is meant according to br. Joseph...

I reckon that as some Quranists can't speak Arabic,  this may be a big problem for them as they may think that 'traditionalists' will take whatever meaning they want.  But this is wrong...so so wrong ...IMHO its only certain Qur'anists that don't know any Arabic and mainly use dictionaries that find this a big big problem...so a lot of them fight over meanings arguing non-stop.... Just like English speaking people know what a word means in a context .....so do people who speak Arabic.

Therefore, I agree with br joseph that in verse 48.29, a physical prostration is the proper meaning. I don't think there is any proof against it ... just a lot of 'maybe' 'maybe' 'maybe' and more 'maybe' from a lot of Qur'anists. That is also where the marks on the forehead come from.

Also I have a q for you br Sardar...you clearly believe in 5 salaat and prostration.. so why do you keep asking these questions? you see i think that asking these q over and over again you are only going to cause trouble between those who have different views on this and have said all they have to say.. I think it causes trouble...don't take it personally or anything but putting questions out just for the sake of arguments is not really nice unless if you have a question that you are unsure about...just my two cents ..... Saba
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Sardar Miyan on April 19, 2014, 09:51:34 PM
Thank you Saba Actually it was me who has posted this Ayaah to stress that the Mark of Sujood would be on the foreheads of Muslims on account of Sajda.
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: QM Moderators Team on April 22, 2014, 02:46:59 AM
Dear Saba,

Please can we ask that in future you attempt to keep your comments general if you can and not single out individuals if it is not completely relevant to the post. Some of your comments have been edited as discussed with you.

Thanks
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Saba on April 25, 2014, 07:27:29 PM
Ok - got it.. np!  8) :)
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Joseph Islam on May 30, 2014, 12:36:35 PM
In any case, as I said, take your time.

As-salam alaykum brother Wakas.

Thanks for your reply.

As I mentioned in my previous post, God willing and time permitting, I will go through them if I can.

Your brother in faith.
Joseph


Dear brother Wakas,

As-salam alaykum

Given your repeated requests, I have responded to your attempted rebuttal.

With respect, it has been a tedious task and has taken much time away from my other commitments. I do hope however, that you and other readers will benefit from my responses to your attempted rebuttal of my position of 5 prayers a day.

As I respectfully mentioned to you before dear brother, I have discussed this subject repeatedly with you and given my responses to your attempted rebuttal, I cannot afford any further time (nor do I wish) to engage with you on this topic further as I feel that it has added little to my perspective.

I also trust that you will kindly take this response as my last to you on this particular topic and you will of course also exhibit the academic courtesy to provide my response at places where you have posted a link to your attempted rebuttal of my article.  As far as I know, you are usually very transparent in matters such as this.

RESPONSE TO WAKAS
http://quransmessage.com/critiques/Response%20to%20Wakas.htm

With respect and regards,
Joseph
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Wakas on May 31, 2014, 10:54:40 PM
Dear brother Joseph,
w/salaam.

Thanks for the response. It is unfortunate that your reply above gives the impression you did not make multiple changes to your article as a result of my comments, which you did. I hope readers of this forum are not misled by such wording.

In any case, I have not read all of your response yet, but I did notice you repeatedly misstated my position throughout (even though you quoted my position at the start). Let me be clear, as I said in this thread, my position is The Quran evidences "a minimum of two salat daily" NOT "two salat daily". I hope you can appreciate there is a difference.

GW, I will review your response in the future. Until then:

Those who listen to what is being said, then follow the best of it.
These are the ones God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.

[Al Quran, 39:18]
 
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: Joseph Islam on June 01, 2014, 12:25:29 AM
Dear Wakas,

As-salam alaykum

It is unfortunate that your reply above gives the impression you did not make multiple changes to your article as a result of my comments, which you did. I hope readers of this forum are not misled by such wording.

May I kindly request that you do not (in any manner whatsoever) part with comments which may tacitly disparage the intelligence of the readership. I believe they are quite apt to make up their own minds after putting my response to you to scrutiny and are not prone to being misled. I believe that they are quite discerning.

Furthermore, I truly believe that any sincere reader worth their salt given my numerous comments in red to your 20 points would not consider the two clarifications I have made for the benefit of the readership as 'multiple changes'. This is in my view, an incorrect impression that you have parted to give some credibility to your attempted rebuttal which evidently suffered from numerous problems.

The two clarifications were clearly stated as:


This is in my opinion, by no means a host of changes by any stretch of the English language, as you imply by the term ‘multiple changes’. Furthermore, they do not alter the thrust of the argument for 5 prayers a day, which in my humble view, your inability to contest only confirmed.

If anything, the fact that I have I chosen to make evident in my response that I have sought to clarify my article on two minor points in a plethora of rebuttals against your intended critique should be ample evidence of my humble willingness to be transparent and remain credible.  However, please can I kindly request that you do not take my clarification as if to somehow present your own critique in a favourable light. In my humble view, your critique suffered a host of serious weaknesses of which I made mention in my response to you, in no uncertain terms. [1]

but I did notice you repeatedly misstated my position throughout (even though you quoted my position at the start). Let me be clear, as I said in this thread, my position is The Quran evidences "a minimum of two salat daily" NOT "two salat daily". I hope you can appreciate there is a difference.

This is simply a play on words Wakas. By asserting that there are a minimum of 2-salaat a day you concede that the Quran only prescribes 2 prayers a day as 'fard' (compulsory) which is your position. Of course, one can pray a 100 prayers in the day voluntarily if they so desire and are able (we both agree with that). However, your position of 2-salaat a day is an authoritative position based on the Quran which stipulates this as 'prescribed'. This is opposed to my position from the Quran of 5 prayers a day. Therefore, I strongly disagree with your claim that I have misrepresented your position in any way. I merely exposed your position to make it evident to readers so they could possibly better understand the premise of your rebuttal which may also be to attack the 5-prayer a day authoritative belief from the Quran, given your own beliefs.

In any case, I have not read all of your response yet,

Then I am truly amazed how you have come to the general conclusion that I have:


Like I respectfully shared before, I will not be discussing this matter with you again. I have already spent far more time than I would have wished to deal with one individual's gripe against the 5 prayers a day belief with whom I have already discussed the matter before.

This is no different  from your sentiment where you stated:

"Unfortunately, I am not really interested in debating an individual, thus I would much prefer a large group of 5-salat-daily advocates. The larger the better." - Wakas 25th December 2013 (http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606088.msg344074#msg344074)

My response to you was a one-off response given the fact that I felt you were on the verge of badgering me for a response, both directly and indirectly, and brazenly posted your attempted rebuttal on other social platforms as a refutation of the 5-prayer a day belief, focusing on my article in particular. I believe that your arguments were weak and this was highlighted. With respect, I personally cannot afford to give you any more time debating what you believe to be true and a topic which I feel I have exhausted. This is my prerogative.

I would trust that you will sincerely appreciate someone's time and effort that they have given you to go through your tedious 'alleged refutations' rather than being overly critical.

May I kindly reiterate that any future discussions on this topic will be curtailed as I do not consider a discussion with you on this topic fruitful going forward. We have both made our positions clear and the readers can of course, make up their own minds.

Regards,
Joseph


REFERENCE:

[1] RESPONSE TO WAKAS
http://quransmessage.com/critiques/Response%20to%20Wakas.htm
Title: Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
Post by: QM Moderators Team on June 01, 2014, 09:06:50 PM
Dear All,

As per Saba's post (now removed) please see links where Wakas has posted his article:

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606088.msg347459#msg347459
http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?id=6251

This thread is now closed as all sides have shared their perspectives.

Thanks