QM Forum

The Quran => General Discussions => Topic started by: Reader Questions on October 29, 2012, 12:46:25 AM

Title: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: Reader Questions on October 29, 2012, 12:46:25 AM
Question by Saba for QM forum [by email]


Quote
Salaam br Joseph / all

I wanted to ask why when it is forbidden to take the life of a soul would Allah ask Prophet Abraham to sacrifice his son? Would it not have appeared strange to him and then prompt him to question the source of such a dream?  Thanks Saba
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: QM Moderators Team on October 29, 2012, 12:50:53 AM
Dear Saba,

Please try logging into your account again. Login problems with your account should now be resolved.

If problem still persists, please email to let us now. Your question has been posted anyway.

Thanks
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: Saba on October 29, 2012, 03:57:05 AM
Dear Saba,

Please try logging into your account again. Login problems with your account should now be resolved.

If problem still persists, please email to let us now. Your question has been posted anyway.

Thanks

Yay!! Thanks. All working ok now  8) ;D
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: Sardar Miyan on October 29, 2012, 08:14:30 AM
Sister Saba Can you please qoute the Aya where Allah asked Abraham to sacrifice his son? Is it Sacrifice of life or sacrifice of worldly things in the way of Allah?
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: Saba on October 29, 2012, 09:12:34 AM
Sister Saba Can you please qoute the Aya where Allah asked Abraham to sacrifice his son? Is it Sacrifice of life or sacrifice of worldly things in the way of Allah?

Salaam br. Sardar. Please see 37.102 - 37.110
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: Talib on October 29, 2012, 05:42:27 PM
Dear Sr. Saba

Salamun Alaikum

I found related info in another thread. I would like to share it with you, hoping that it will add to the perspective.

Please check :

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=618.0


Hope it helps.

Regards.
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: Duster on October 29, 2012, 08:26:33 PM
Peace / shalom

Along with to bro Talib's link, please also see answer to similar q by bro Joseph on another link I found.


http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=178.msg473#msg473


Quote
Salamun Alaikum,

At no place in the Quran does it say that God asked for the sacrifice. We have to clear our minds completely of everything we have learnt since childhood and 'rethink' and ponder from the Quran to ascertain its true perspective.

We note from the Quran:

(a)   At no place does the Quran say that God asked or 'inspired' Prophet Abraham to kill his son. Note that God does 'inspire' his servants as he did with Mary to put her baby into the water (28:7)

(b)   At no place does the Quran say that God sent Prophet Abraham the dream. The Quran only says that Prophet Abraham had a dream (37:102). The Quran clearly informs us when God does inspire dreams such as with Prophet Muhammad (17:60; 48:27; 8:43) and those visions that are fulfilled such as with Prophet Joseph (12:4; 12:100). However, Prophet Abraham's vision was 'stopped' by God (37:104-5)

We also know from the Quran that God does not advocate humans to be killed or do evil acts. God only commands and enjoins justice (16:90)

All the Quran informs us is that Prophet Abraham had a dream (37:102), he wasn't sure about the nature of the dream, so he sought his son's opinion (37:102). His son believed it from God and they both continued to submit to the task thinking it was from God. God stopped them in time (37:104-5) and God informed them that they had fulfilled the dream. There is a strong implication that this was because they had already 'submitted' in purpose to what they believed was from God.

Given this huge undertaking that they were willing to submit to, this was called a 'manifest trial' (balau-l'mubeen).

I hope this helps, God willing.
Joseph.







Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: HOPE on October 29, 2012, 09:19:35 PM
Salaam,

Quote
I wanted to ask why when it is forbidden to take the life of a soul would Allah ask Prophet Abraham to sacrifice his son? Would it not have appeared strange to him and then prompt him to question the source of such a dream?

I believe sister Saba is only questioning why Prophet Abraham was so quick to conclude that the source of his dream was God, knowing that God would not demand an innocent person to be killed.
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: Duster on October 29, 2012, 09:52:59 PM
Peace hope

I am not sure Abraham (SA) was quick to conclude that the dream was from Allah. Otherwise, why would he ask his son for his opinion? I think they concluded that it was from Allah and then submitted thinking it was from Allah. Until Allah intervened. But from my reading of the verse, I don't see a rush to conclude and would agree with bro Joseph's statement where he says ....>
Quote
" he wasn't sure about the nature of the dream, so he sought his son's opinion (37:102)"
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: HOPE on October 29, 2012, 11:20:50 PM
Salaam Duster,

Only the son can make that decision based on the premise 'my life, my sacrifice ... for God", not Abraham since it is not his life.  As a parent it is the most difficult thing to do.  I would give my life rather than take part in the act.  What would you do?
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: Duster on October 30, 2012, 01:15:48 AM
Peace hope

If Abraham thought it was a clear command from Allah, do you think he would have entered into a discussion with his son and risk the son to say no and then disobey Allah's command? Do you think he would be negotiating with son whether he should offer up his life even though Allah had clearly commanded it? No. I don't think so. No where does it say that Allah sent the dream. Can you find a clear statement that says Allah sent a dream or commanded Abraham (SA)?
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: Saba on October 30, 2012, 01:41:37 AM
Thank you all for your comments  ;D :)

br Dunster - Re: the following quote ........


Quote
(b)   At no place does the Quran say that God sent Prophet Abraham the dream. The Quran only says that Prophet Abraham had a dream (37:102). The Quran clearly informs us when God does inspire dreams such as with Prophet Muhammad (17:60; 48:27; 8:43) and those visions that are fulfilled such as with Prophet Joseph (12:4; 12:100). However, Prophet Abraham's vision was 'stopped' by God (37:104-5)[/color]

Actually that is a good point ...when Allah shows a dream he clearly mentions in the Quran that it is from Him or that He has something to do with it.

17.60 - We granted the vision which We showed thee
48.27 - Truly did Allah fulfil the vision for His Messenger
8.43 - Remember in thy dream Allah showed them to thee as few

In 37.102 - the only mention is that Prophet Abraham had a dream. It doesn't say the dream was from Allah. I'm still not 100% myself, but some very persuasive points have been made / shared. Thanks to all. Saba


Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: HOPE on October 30, 2012, 03:37:58 AM
Salaam,
 
 It is not a characteristic of Abraham not to question the wisdom behind his interpretation of the dream. 

"My Lord is He who gives life and takes it away"; "O Lord! Show me how thou gives life to the dead....yes! but my heart needs some sign of assurance"

In his symbolic story, he reasons with his heart and discovers his connection with God.  He would abandon his father just like Moses abandons the Pharaoh's court or Muhammad his home and heritage in pursuit of God.  Yet Abraham prays for his father.

If I can put myself in his shoes, the result would be different.  I would tear my heart out begging that He take my life instead of asking me to do the impossible or take away both of our lives right there.  If I receive no response, then I would have to choose the punishment and kill myself. 

I am not trying to be melodramatic; just trying to reason with my heart. I am given two things- my life and my child.  My life is a total gift in that I had no say so in my coming to life whereas with the child I'm a co-creator with the God-given maternal instinct that I cannot turn it off.

Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: Mubashir on October 30, 2012, 11:01:23 PM
Salam All

To consider a new perspective, some have suggested that this was not at all about slaughtering Ibrahim's son!! (Which is why Ibrahim asked his son's opinion). It was about a journey to a barren land where both father and son were to go and establish a House dedicated to Allah Alone. The sacrifice was about (they say) leaving all the comforts of home and migrating to an inhospitable spot! Do these translators have a case. Here is one by Dr. Kamal Omar who is mostly traditional (unlike Parwez or Dr. Shabbir):


37:102 So when he attained (reached the age of), ‘striving and effort along with him’, he (the father) said: “O my little son! I do see during the sleep that I will offer you in sacrifice (to some Cause of Allah), so look what you think.” He said: “O my dear father! Implement what you would be commanded; soon you would find me, in-shaa-Allaho [if Allah (so) willed] out of those who patiently persevere ."

37:103 So when both submitted (themselves), and he (Ibrahim) made him (Ismaiel) ready for Al-Jabeen [the forehead (i.e., , the events which Ismaiel would face as a sacrifice in the Way of Allah)] ,

37:104 instantly, We called out to him (saying) that: " O Ibrahim!

37:105 Indeed, you have fulfilled the vision (dream)!” Verily, thus We do reward the Muhsinun .

37:106 Verily, this (vision): indeed that (is) an obvious test and preparation!

37:107 And We interpreted unto him (the contents of the vision, and physically implemented Our Plan) through a Great Sacrifice .

37:108 And We established for him among the later generations —
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: Wakas on October 31, 2012, 01:56:44 AM
salaam all,

My understanding is as follows:

37:102 When he grew enough to work with him, he said, "My son, I am seeing in a dream that I am sacrificing you (i.e. giving you up) for a noble cause. What do you think?" He said, "O my father, do what you are commanded to do. You will find me, God willing, patient.
37:103 So when they both submitted (or became peaceful), and he (Abraham) brought him to his forehead.*
37:104 And We called to him: "O Abraham,
37:105 You have fulfilled the vision." It is such that We reward the doers of good.
37:106 Surely, this was a clear test.
37:107 We exchanged him with a tremendous sacrifice.
37:108 And we left for him among the later generations.

*Root: Ta-Lam-Lam: lay one down upon one's kin (neck/cheek/breast), or forehead in this case. This could be commonly done when one says goodbye to a loved one such as a son/daughter/etc.
Note how it says he "fulfilled the vision".

Giving up one's son for a noble cause (e.g. spreading the message) is indeed an exacting test, and a tremendous sacrifice.

Note how in the story of Abraham, as per Quran, he is not mentioned being with his two sons at the same time, and that Ishmael is never mentioned being with Isaac at the same place, implying a separation. Abraham is also never mentioned with Isaac in the latter half of the story in Quran. This provides a perfect fit with the above theory.

Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: Mubashir on October 31, 2012, 02:35:47 AM
Good point Wakas. The great sacrifice also involved Ibrahim's separation from his wife and Ismail !!
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: HOPE on October 31, 2012, 03:11:22 AM
Salaam all,

It would also solve my existential problem as well as social dilemma  as a 'dead beat' dad. :)
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: HOPE on October 31, 2012, 04:22:06 AM
Salaam Wakas,

I cannot connect 37:108 with 109.  Is the salutation left for him?  Then it is not a reward for Abraham exclusively since PBUH is on all nabis.
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: Joseph Islam on October 31, 2012, 05:36:20 AM
Salamun Alaikum.

Thank you to those that have shared their perspectives.  :)

I have a few humble questions and a comment given some of the recent posts.


Dear Wakas - In Prophet Abraham's narrative concerning his dream, the Arabic verb used is 'adhbahuka' from the root 'dhiba'. (TH-B-H). This is a word of well known meaning [1]. Please can you provide any evidence from any classical lexicon source or spoken Arabic usage of the word, where the primary signification of the word 'dhiba' is used to imply the action of giving someone up (for a noble cause).

Dear Mubashir - Do you have any Quranic support for your statement "The great sacrifice also involved Ibrahim's separation from his wife and Ismail"?

Dear Hope - With respect and as I'm sure you will agree, as sincere believers we must allow the Quran to speak for itself given the clear Arabic language that it uses to portray its message. As far as I can ascertain, the Quran makes no attempt to correct the general understanding of the intended slaughter by Prophet Abraham that was prevalent with the readers of the previous scriptures whilst using clear Arabic speech. In my humble opinion, it simply ratified it. I raise this point as a critical charge against metaphorical renditions of certain passages which I find have no Quranic warrant. The crux of my contention raises the question, "Why does the Quran use similar terms, expressions and narratives in the Arabic language to support and confirm (musadaqan) the existing understanding of the Jews and Christians which in turn are supported by their scriptures, when its intention is to challenge them?"


Thanks to you all in advance and to those that shared my own views on the subject earlier in the thread.

Regards,
Joseph.  :)



REFERENCE

[1]    SLAUGHTERING OF ANIMALS - THE CORRECT METHOD OF SACRIFICE
http://quransmessage.com/articles/slaughtering%20of%20animals%20-%20the%20correct%20method%20of%20sacrifice%20FM3.htm
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: HOPE on October 31, 2012, 11:59:51 AM
Salaam Joseph,

Thanks for your reply and reminding me to follow the Quran narration. 

Abraham prays for a salihin son; he is given a halim son.  When he attains the age of working along with his father, Abraham wants to test his faith and submissiveness to God, thus  talks to him about his vision of sacrificing his son who is, knowing that God is with those who are persevering in submission to Him, submits to the Divine Will.


"Allah does not call you to account for what is vain of your oaths, but He will call you to account for what your hearts have earned, and Allah is Forgiving, Forbearing" (Quran, 2:225).


Some of Allah's messengers are recognized as Haleem; for example, Abraham, the Friend of Allah, is described as, "... most surely Abraham was very tender-hearted, forbearing" (9:114), and in Surat Hud, he is praised likewise: "Most surely Abraham was forbearing, tender-hearted, oft-returning (to Allah)" (11:75).

"So we gave him the glad tidings of a boy [Ishmael] possessing forbearance" (Quran, 3:101).

Al- Haleem quite often overlooks sins and covers up shortcomings.  Al-Haleem shields those who indulge in sins with His forgiveness, pardons those who violate His laws,  is not slighted by the rebellion of the rebellious, and no oppression of any oppressor can ever provoke Him.  He shows gentleness because He is so powerful can delay judgment.

At the human level, haleem knows how to overcome his emotions and passions, calms down his anger when insulted, restrains himself from doing violence.

"And We gave him in exchange a Great Sacrifice" can be understood at the physical level as the Great Sacrifice of animals abolishing the practice of human sacrifice; and on the spiritual level, the animal in man was to be sacrificed to the divine in him.
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: Joseph Islam on October 31, 2012, 12:18:59 PM
Dear Hope,

Peace to you.

You have kindly shared characteristics of a noble messenger. Other characteristics are mentioned of other messengers.

However, my academic contention is specific.

If you kindly will, please can you provide clear evidence from the Quran for your statement below, in particular the statement highlighted in bold black.

Quote
"Abraham wants to test his faith and submissiveness to God, thus  talks to him about his vision of sacrificing his son who is, knowing that God is with those who are persevering in submission to Him, submits to the Divine Will."

Please bear in mind that I have yet to see any evidence in any post on this thread which unequivocally proves that the vision was from God which is invariably linked to the initial question posed by the originator of the thread.

Finally, please can you also kindly provide evidence from the Quran to corroborate your statement below which implies that human sacrifice was a practice in situ at the time of Prophet Abraham's life.

Quote
"...as the Great Sacrifice of animals abolishing the practice of human sacrifice..."

PS: With regards the attribute and adjective 'al-haleem', as you know this is a term we have already commented on.

http://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/377445338990649

Regards,
Joseph.
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: Wakas on October 31, 2012, 09:32:45 PM
w/salaam,

Salaam Wakas,

I cannot connect 37:108 with 109.  Is the salutation left for him?  Then it is not a reward for Abraham exclusively since PBUH is on all nabis.

I'm not sure what you mean by the above, can you clarify.
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: Wakas on October 31, 2012, 09:44:03 PM
w/salaam,


Dear Wakas - In Prophet Abraham's narrative concerning his dream, the Arabic verb used is 'adhbahuka' from the root 'dhiba'. (TH-B-H). This is a word of well known meaning. Please can you provide any evidence from any classical lexicon source or spoken Arabic usage of the word, where the primary signification of the word 'dhiba' is used to imply the action of giving someone up (for a noble cause).

The word still means "sacrifice" but not a literal slaughter in this context. Similar to the way the word is used in English today, see below. In terms of classical arabic evidence, I only have access to Lane's Lexicon and Dictionary of Quran by Omar, and the connotation or origin of the word can be split/divide, but even so "sacrifice" is still my preference. It would be interesting to determine if this word is used in a non-literal way in a lexicon however.

English Dictionary:
Quote
sac·ri·fice
noun /ˈsakrəˌfīs/ 
sacrifices, plural

An act of slaughtering an animal or person or surrendering a possession as an offering to God or to a divine or supernatural figure
- they offer sacrifices to the spirits
- the ancient laws of animal sacrifice

An animal, person, or object offered in this way

An act of giving up something valued for the sake of something else regarded as more important or worthy


If I may ask you a question, Quran clearly states Abraham fulfilled the vision, thus according to you, what exactly did Abraham fulfil/complete?
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: Joseph Islam on October 31, 2012, 11:04:53 PM
Dear brother Wakas,

Thank you for your response.

The word still means "sacrifice" but not a literal slaughter in this context.

I would humbly, yet strongly disagree with this assertion as this in my view has not been proven nor has any evidence been provided hitherto to corroborate this position.

The word is the Arabic word 'dhiba' and not the English word 'sacrifice'. Therefore, our determination must rest squarely within the nuance intended by the Arabic word and not a rendition of the English word.

For readers who are interested to note the meaning of the word 'dhiba' as used in an example of classical sources, please see my article reference [1] below. I assert this is the same manner in which the Quran has used the term as the word is of well known meaning. Please see how the imperfect verb 'yadhbahu' is used in verses 2:67 and 27:21. The act of slaughtering / slaying is inherent whether it is done for the sake of God or otherwise.

Therefore, I respectfully maintain that the word has a specific meaning both in the Quran, classical sources and in the spoken Arabic language.

If I may ask you a question, Quran clearly states Abraham fulfilled the vision, thus according to you, what exactly did Abraham fulfil/complete?

Of course  :)  I have provided a response to this question in another thread which was also kindly shared by brother Duster earlier in this thread.

Quote
"There is a strong implication that this was because they had already 'submitted' in purpose to what they believed was from God."


Am I therefore correct in understanding from your response brother Wakas that there is no evidence that you know of from any classical source or spoken Arabic language that the word 'dhiba' is used to 'give someone up' for example in a noble cause as a primary proper signification of the Arabic term 'dhiba'?


Your brother in faith,
Joseph.


REFERENCE

[1]    SLAUGHTERING OF ANIMALS - THE CORRECT METHOD OF SACRIFICE
http://quransmessage.com/articles/slaughtering%20of%20animals%20-%20the%20correct%20method%20of%20sacrifice%20FM3.htm
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: HOPE on October 31, 2012, 11:22:43 PM
Peace Joseph,

I do not believe the source of the vision was God but of course He knowingly allowed it to be interpreted that way to create a paradigm shift.  Ritual human sacrifice has been in the human psyche for so long. Aztecs, Incas, Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans. Remember Agamemnon wants to sacrifice his daughter Iphegenia to Artemis who stops the wind?


'Shall I give my firstborn for my sin, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?' (Micah 6:7 ),
Isaiah 30:27–33 indicates an acceptance of child sacrifice in the early Jerusalem practices, to which the law in Leviticus 20:2–5 forbidding child sacrifice is a response.

Quran 6:137  And in like manner, their associate gods have made killing their children seem fair to many pagans, so that they may ruin them and cause confusion in their religion. Had God pleased, they would not have done so; so leave them to their false inventions.
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: Joseph Islam on October 31, 2012, 11:43:36 PM
Dear Hope,

Peace to you.

Thank you for your response.

I do not believe the source of the vision was God but of course He knowingly allowed it to be interpreted that way to create a paradigm shift. 

This is a sentiment that I would generally concur with.  :)

However with respect, in my humble request for Quranic support, your citation of verse 6:137 does not provide evidence that the killing of the children was a part of a process of human sacrifice during the time of Prophet Abraham. 

Verse 6:137 has a context and if read from the preceding verses 6:135 ff, one will note this is a reference to the pagans contemporaneous to the Prophet. Therefore, this slaughter of children is in my view more likely linked to the general practice of killing of children such as girls [81:8] with the general disdain the pagans exhibited of the female gender (16:58; 43:16; 52:39).

Thank you anyway for sharing your thoughts. Please note that my humble request for evidence is usually generally to assist the discussion to respectfully highlight how much of one's perspective is informed by sources which are extraneous to the Quran.

When attempting to study the Quran from the Quran, I humbly feel we must be willing to undertake a consistent, airtight approach and be willing to concede where our opinions are not formed by the Quranic narratives entirely. This would at least for me, be the most intellectually honest and sincere response. I trust, in this general sentiment that you will at least appreciate my perspective.  :)

Your brother in faith,
Joseph.


Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: HOPE on November 01, 2012, 12:04:43 AM

Peace Joseph,

Quote
When attempting to study the Quran from the Quran, I humbly feel we must be willing to undertake a consistent, airtight approach and be willing to concede where our opinions are not formed by the Quranic narratives entirely. This would at least for me, be the most intellectually honest and sincere response. I trust, in this general sentiment that you will at least appreciate my perspective.

Thanks for taking the time to explain.  I am slow to understand. Now I've got it.

Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: Joseph Islam on November 01, 2012, 01:03:29 AM
You are not slow to understand dear sister. From what I have read of your comments, you are gifted with intellect and wisdom Mash'Allah. A pleasure to have on the forum. Peace.  :)
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: Wakas on November 01, 2012, 05:35:23 AM
Dear brother Joseph,


Quote
"There is a strong implication that this was because they had already 'submitted' in purpose to what they believed was from God."

Thanks for the reply. In my view, I think the above is possible also.

Firstly, the whole notion of Abraham thinking God told him to sacrifice (as in slaughter) his son in a dream doesn't make sense according to Quranic principles. Perhaps one could argue that is why he asked his son's opinion, but interestingly he replies "O my father, do what you are commanded. You will find me, God willing, of the patient ones.". If it meant slaughter, it seems odd he would concur and use the word "commanded" - as he seems to automatically deduce it is a command for some reason.
Note the order of what the son replies. According to corpus.quran.com the prefix "sa" is a "FUT – prefixed future particle sa" and patient ones" is an active participle, and these come after he says "do what you are commanded", implying do what you are commanded and God willing you will find me of the patient ones. Obviously, if he is slaughtered him being patient or not does not make sense.
To me, the implication is that the vision was from God. If not, we'd have to assume whatever Abraham dreamt, he thought it was commands from God, or at least, this one was, and so did his son apparently. Seems unusual to me, but possible. They both submit to whatever the dream was about, then it says "We like thus reward the good-doers" - now, if the command was not from God, then the implication of this is if one thinks (in a dream lets say) God is commanding them to do X (even if X is not from God) then this will be rewarded and you can be described as a good-doer. Since when is doing something that goes against Quranic principles (as you admit it would have been) for the sole reason that one happens to think it is from God ever discussed positively in Quran? Never to my knowledge.
Further the word "trial/balau" is always used in Quran as from God.

Having said the above, it is not definitive that is was from God, but there is certainly evidence suggesting it was.

If it meant slaughter, then technically he did not fulfil the vision. He was about to, but did not complete it. But this could be argued against as you have said.

And lastly it says "And We ransomed/exchanged him (son) with/by/for a great sacrifice." which to me, the use of "great" seems odd if it meant an animal replacement for slaughter.

If this is coupled with what I said previously, and the definitive "settled some/of/from (partitive) of my progeny" in 14:37 this implies a clear split between Abraham/Ishmael/Isaac, i.e. they are not all in the same place.


Please note, I am not saying my understanding is solid, but I do consider it reasonable.



Quote
Am I therefore correct in understanding from your response brother Wakas that there is no evidence that you know of from any classical source or spoken Arabic language that the word 'dhiba' is used to 'give someone up' for example in a noble cause as a primary proper signification of the Arabic term 'dhiba'?

I have not checked most classical arabic lexicons if the word is used to mean "sacrifice" in a non-slaughter way, or a similar meaning, but I have checked Lane and DofQ and not found such in them. If you have, please let me know.
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: HOPE on November 01, 2012, 09:17:10 AM
Peace to all,

Just wanted to share with you  Iqbal's expression of what it means to be entirely resigned to God:

To enter into Islam is to step on the altar of love for being sacrificed
People think that it is easy to become a Muslim.
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: HOPE on November 01, 2012, 10:57:37 AM
Peace to all,

In Sufi terminology, there is a term, insan al-kamil which Ibn Arabi uses it to describe the Prophet Muhammad meaning the perfect human.  It is based on hadith.  I believe the term fits Abraham better.  He represents the ideal human servant that I will never attain yet must strive to, nevertheless.  He is the one chosen as God’s friend for a reason.  He was a man of staunch faith in God thus he knew that nothing could cause him harm against the will of God.  He gave us the first faith lesson with the fire incident that if we resign ourselves entirely to God, there is no need to fear or grieve,  The same lesson is repeated in the sacrifice incident. 

As 7:170 states, “We shall not deny the righteous their reward.” or 9:120, “God will not deny the righteous their reward”

So what was his reward?  He was promised to be made an imam over mankind 2:124 The Jews, the Christians and even the idolatrous Arabs claimed him as their ancestor even though they did not practice his religion.  That is his legacy. Peace to you Abraham!
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: Joseph Islam on November 01, 2012, 12:54:24 PM
Peace to you Abraham!

Indeed :) Peace to you Prophet Abraham (37:108-109).

037:181           
"And Peace be upon the messengers!"
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: Joseph Islam on November 01, 2012, 07:58:57 PM
and even the idolatrous Arabs claimed him as their ancestor even though they did not practice his religion.


Dear Hope / All

Peace to you.

Despite popular belief and given all my work with historical sources, I am not convinced given the weight of Quranic evidence in particular, that the statement above was ever true nor was this ever a claim made by the Prophet.

In my humble view, such a belief has accumulated within the realms of Islamic secondary sources which has subsequently resulted in popular belief. Suffice to say, whatever the motives and propogation circumstances of such a belief, there is in my view no unequivocal evidence to support such a claim. In contrast, the Quranic evidence seems to negate such a view.

Please see my analysis on this subject from a Quranic perspective below.

ARE THE ARABS AND PROPHET MUHAMMAD (pbuh) REALLY DESCENDANTS OF PROPHET ABRAHAM? (pbuh)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/are%20the%20arabs%20descendants%20of%20abraham%20FM3.htm

Regards,
Joseph.
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: Joseph Islam on November 02, 2012, 01:42:50 AM
I have not checked most classical arabic lexicons if the word is used to mean "sacrifice" in a non-slaughter way, or a similar meaning, but I have checked Lane and DofQ and not found such in them. If you have, please let me know.

Dear brother Wakas,

Peace to you

I personally don't know of 'dhiba' being used in such a metaphorical manner, hence why I personally incline to read it literally the way that I have respectfully asserted and take the position I have shared.

However, thanks for your intellectual honesty. Much appreciated.

Your brother in faith,
Joseph.
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: chadiga on November 02, 2012, 01:49:00 AM
Salam hope

In Sufi terminology, there is a term, insan al-kamil which Ibn Arabi uses it to describe the Prophet Muhammad meaning the perfect human.  It is based on hadith.  I believe the term fits Abraham better.  He represents the ideal human servant that I will never attain yet must strive to, nevertheless.  He is the one chosen as God’s friend for a reason.  He was a man of staunch faith in God thus he knew that nothing could cause him harm against the will of God.  He gave us the first faith lesson with the fire incident that if we resign ourselves entirely to God, there is no need to fear or grieve,  The same lesson is repeated in the sacrifice incident.

just one question: what is a perfect human??? what are the criteria for to become a perfect human?? in my humble view, there are no perfect human.  :)

but this a little bit off topic. i'm sorry. Salams
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: Saba on November 02, 2012, 02:02:08 AM

just one question: what is a perfect human??? what are the criteria for to become a perfect human?? in my humble view, there are no perfect human.  :)

but this a little bit off topic. i'm sorry. Salams

I totally agree with you chadiga. There is no such thing as a perfect human. Also I have my concerns with Sufi terminology and concepts at times.

For example:

"In Sufism, a Qutb or Kutb is the perfect human being, al-insān al-kāmil, who leads the saintly hierarchy. The Qutb is the Sufi spiritual leader that has a Divine connection with God and passes knowledge on which makes him central to (or the axis of) Sufism"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qutb

"Marifa (Arabic: المعرفة‎), which literally means knowledge, is the term used by Sufi Muslims to describe mystical intuitive knowledge of spiritual truth reached through ecstatic experiences, rather than revealed or rationally acquired"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marifa

There are other concepts too like karamat. However, I agree with you, this is a little off topic. Saba

Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: HOPE on November 02, 2012, 03:02:15 AM
Peace ladies,

Prophet Muhammad is not only al-Insan al-Kamil "Whole Man" but also the  al-Insan al-Qadim (Ancient Man).  I do not remember much now, I used to study Ibn Arabi but stopped when I realized his theory was based on a hadith that the world would not have been created without Muhammad.  Anyway, the reason I used the terminology was to point out that  the Whole or Universal Man means to come out from oneself and to project one's will into the absolutely "Other"; the Ancient or Primordial Man means to return to our substance. It is a combination for man's spatial and temporal symbolism.

I see these terms manifesting in the Prophet Abraham.

Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: chadiga on November 02, 2012, 06:58:17 PM
peace Hope
Peace ladies,

Prophet Muhammad is not only al-Insan al-Kamil "Whole Man" but also the  al-Insan al-Qadim (Ancient Man).  I do not remember much now, I used to study Ibn Arabi but stopped when I realized his theory was based on a hadith that the world would not have been created without Muhammad.
this seems to be a theorie between Hadith and ancient creation myths...
  Anyway, the reason I used the terminology was to point out that  the Whole or Universal Man means to come out from oneself and to project one's will into the absolutely "Other"; the Ancient or Primordial Man means to return to our substance. It is a combination for man's spatial and temporal symbolism.
it is this view of God, what i'm completly not agree with. Sufismus states - as Buddhismus too- that we and God(or the 'nothing' or 'universal power' ) can be one-what lead to the conclusion from satanist: that in fact we ARE God. What else is the claim from Sufis leader /saints/holy priests to become ONE WITH GOD??? for me blasphemy :(


I see these terms manifesting in the Prophet Abraham.
how you see this terms manifesting in prophet abraham? i don't understand, sorry.

Salam
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: HOPE on November 02, 2012, 11:42:26 PM
Salaam Chadiga,

Quote
I see these terms manifesting in the Prophet Abraham.
how you see this terms manifesting in prophet abraham? i don't understand, sorry.

Sorry for confusing you.   [Insan al- kamil] operates on two planes: horizontal by extending oneself into the universal life which is that of all beings and vertical by coming out from ego grip and projecting the will into God's. In fact, I was stuck couldn't move because I wanted to move up and sideways at the same time.  Abraham was able to transcend the linear move and expand up first.

Quote
it is this view of God, what i'm completly not agree with. Sufismus states - as Buddhismus too- that we and God(or the 'nothing' or 'universal power' ) can be one-what lead to the conclusion from satanist: that in fact we ARE God. What else is the claim from Sufis leader /saints/holy priests to become ONE WITH GOD??? for me blasphemy

For the Sufi, to follow the prophet means to extend the soul to the life of all beings, to 'ibadah and to dhakara with all and in all as mentioned in 17:44  and also means reduce the soul to the divine remembering of the one soul 2:25

The Sufi wants neither "to be God" as in the extinction/fana concept ; nor "to be other than God" as in the permanence/baqa concept.  There is no fana in God without universal charity and there is no baqa in God without submission to the Origin.  Prophet represents both universality and primordiality just like islam is everywhere and which has always been.

Hope hopes that this is a bit clearer.
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: Truth Seeker on November 03, 2012, 01:14:42 AM
Salaam,

I have read that certain Sufi groups do have concepts where they chant their way to a higher plane so that they are 'one with God and He is one with them' in a literal sense.

Others have the idea that their spiritual leaders have 'special knowlege' that can only be passed on to others after they have served under their teacher for many many years. This is very worrying for me.

Thanks
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: HOPE on November 03, 2012, 02:42:12 AM
Salaam Truth Seeker,

Quote
I have read that certain Sufi groups do have concepts where they chant their way to a higher plane so that they are 'one with God and He is one with them' in a literal sense.

Others have the idea that their spiritual leaders have 'special knowlege' that can only be passed on to others after they have served under their teacher for many many years. This is very worrying for me.

People have different stations [ lawwamah, mulhimah, mutma'innah, radiyah, mardiyah] and consciousness thus every experience is different. Are the seeing and the blind the same?  Outside of the Paradise, most cannot realize the Divine Presence.  The quest, seeking must be spiritual.  The vision of God is for the eye of the heart.  As far as the spiritual leaders, they cannot make you see, most they can do is make you get involved in spiritual exercises where you try to 'kill the ego' to prepare the soul for maximum absorption of divine light. like personal trainer in a gym. some are good some are not just like some seekers are more receptive than others.
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: chadiga on November 03, 2012, 11:45:07 PM
Salam Hope
Salaam,

I have read that certain Sufi groups do have concepts where they chant their way to a higher plane so that they are 'one with God and He is one with them' in a literal sense.

Others have the idea that their spiritual leaders have 'special knowlege' that can only be passed on to others after they have served under their teacher for many many years. This is very worrying for me.

Thanks
this i have read too. and just yesterday one site which i follow make in a new article this claim "how to be ONE WITH GOD".
But thank you for trying to enlighten me  ;)
Salaam Truth Seeker,

Quote
I have read that certain Sufi groups do have concepts where they chant their way to a higher plane so that they are 'one with God and He is one with them' in a literal sense.

Others have the idea that their spiritual leaders have 'special knowlege' that can only be passed on to others after they have served under their teacher for many many years. This is very worrying for me.

People have different stations [ lawwamah, mulhimah, mutma'innah, radiyah, mardiyah] and consciousness thus every experience is different. Are the seeing and the blind the same?  Outside of the Paradise, most cannot realize the Divine Presence.  The quest, seeking must be spiritual.  The vision of God is for the eye of the heart. As far as the spiritual leaders, they cannot make you see, most they can do is make you get involved in spiritual exercises where you try to 'kill the ego' to prepare the soul for maximum absorption of divine light. like personal trainer in a gym. some are good some are not just like some seekers are more receptive than others.

but the problem is, that spiritual leaders aren't personal trainer in  gym. Spirtuality should be for All people, not only for few individual.
hmm :-\
Thank you and salam
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: HOPE on November 04, 2012, 12:45:04 AM
Peace sister Chadiga,

Quote
but the problem is, that spiritual leaders aren't personal trainer in  gym. Spirtuality should be for All people, not only for few individual.
hmm

Of course, that is why I said  "As far as the spiritual leaders, they cannot make you see, most they can do is make you get involved in spiritual exercises where you try to 'kill the ego' to prepare the soul for maximum absorption of divine light."  You do the work, you connect the dots and see . The trainer can only  show you the certain exercises that will give you the most benefit.  I gave such a mundane example to neutralize the mystical powers people associate with them.  It is not their fault.  Followers elevate them.  As with everything, we either use or abuse things.   
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: Wakas on August 05, 2019, 01:05:45 PM
peace all,

I have written an article on this topic to put my thoughts/notes in one place: Click Here (http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.html)

Title: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son?
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: s1c4r1us on August 06, 2019, 01:39:51 PM
Peace Joseph,

I do not believe the source of the vision was God but of course He knowingly allowed it to be interpreted that way to create a paradigm shift.  Ritual human sacrifice has been in the human psyche for so long. Aztecs, Incas, Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans. Remember Agamemnon wants to sacrifice his daughter Iphegenia to Artemis who stops the wind?


'Shall I give my firstborn for my sin, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?' (Micah 6:7 ),
Isaiah 30:27–33 indicates an acceptance of child sacrifice in the early Jerusalem practices, to which the law in Leviticus 20:2–5 forbidding child sacrifice is a response.

Quran 6:137  And in like manner, their associate gods have made killing their children seem fair to many pagans, so that they may ruin them and cause confusion in their religion. Had God pleased, they would not have done so; so leave them to their false inventions.

Isn't Micah 6:7 talking about giving your firstborn as a sacrifice to the Temple, to dedicate himself to Scripture etc.
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: s1c4r1us on August 06, 2019, 01:44:35 PM
Good point Wakas. The great sacrifice also involved Ibrahim's separation from his wife and Ismail !!

That was actually a fight which separated them. Read the Torah. Even until this day the Israelites and Arabs hate each other.

The Quran doesn't give the name of the son who was going to be sacrificed. The Torah and the Gospel both say it was Isaac, by name, and i checked the Hebrew and Greek. The Quran again tells us that it confirmed the Torah and the Gospel. So there should be no doubt about who the sacrificed son was.

I think God wanted to see if Abraham could support Jesus Christ by asking him to sacrifice hes son to God. Remember how God made a substitute when Abraham was going to sacrifice Isaac, which symbolic can mean that it wasn't Isaac who was going to come with the big changes, but it was Jesus Christ, who sacrificed himself as a lamb to God who teaches us how to love God and each other.
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: s1c4r1us on August 06, 2019, 01:46:12 PM
Salaam Joseph,

Thanks for your reply and reminding me to follow the Quran narration. 

Abraham prays for a salihin son; he is given a halim son.  When he attains the age of working along with his father, Abraham wants to test his faith and submissiveness to God, thus  talks to him about his vision of sacrificing his son who is, knowing that God is with those who are persevering in submission to Him, submits to the Divine Will.


"Allah does not call you to account for what is vain of your oaths, but He will call you to account for what your hearts have earned, and Allah is Forgiving, Forbearing" (Quran, 2:225).


Some of Allah's messengers are recognized as Haleem; for example, Abraham, the Friend of Allah, is described as, "... most surely Abraham was very tender-hearted, forbearing" (9:114), and in Surat Hud, he is praised likewise: "Most surely Abraham was forbearing, tender-hearted, oft-returning (to Allah)" (11:75).

"So we gave him the glad tidings of a boy [Ishmael] possessing forbearance" (Quran, 3:101).

Al- Haleem quite often overlooks sins and covers up shortcomings.  Al-Haleem shields those who indulge in sins with His forgiveness, pardons those who violate His laws,  is not slighted by the rebellion of the rebellious, and no oppression of any oppressor can ever provoke Him.  He shows gentleness because He is so powerful can delay judgment.

At the human level, haleem knows how to overcome his emotions and passions, calms down his anger when insulted, restrains himself from doing violence.

"And We gave him in exchange a Great Sacrifice" can be understood at the physical level as the Great Sacrifice of animals abolishing the practice of human sacrifice; and on the spiritual level, the animal in man was to be sacrificed to the divine in him.

3:101 doesn't mention the word Ishmael..
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: Wakas on October 12, 2019, 02:57:17 AM
I have now updated the article with a list of test questions at the end so people can put their understanding to the test.

Direct link (http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Abraham-Sacrifice-Questions.html).

Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: Hamzeh on October 15, 2019, 07:59:02 AM
Asalamu 3alykum brother Wakas

Thank you for sharing your perspective on the narrative.

These are my humble thoughts on your perspective.

You still seem to accept that a dream of an actual slaughter/sacrifice has appeared to Abraham in his dream because of course the word of "dhib'hin/sacrifice" was used and as you admitted that "Dh-B-Ḥ carries the meanings:
a) to split something,
b) to slit someone's/something's throat
c) to strangle someone/something."


and admitted that "and this word is always used to mean a literal slaughter/sacrifice/kill in Quran."

So in this case your saying the dream is still ultimately from God because he was commanded to separate from his son.

Since your saying that Abraham interpreted the dream that he was to separate from his son rather than slaughter/sacrifice his son, why does God call out to him "O' Abraham, Surely you have believed/confirmed the vision...." when yet Abraham still has not departed or separated from his son at this point.

What is the significance of this?

Since your also saying that they just put there heads together instead of Abraham putting his sons head down I do not see any separation at this point although the son was said he would bare patience while the command was carried. So the command at this stage if taken as separation was not yet carried out nor did the son need to have patience because no separation was done yet and also the significance of the verse when God has called "O' Abraham" has been totally undermined and given little significance.

What your interpolation seems to be suggesting to me is that Abraham had a dream of a literal slaughter/sacrifice of his son and then reinterpreted the dream to leave his son instead. Then as they were just getting ready to separate and saying goodbye, God calls to him for reinterpreting the dream to the correct way and also exchanged Abrahams separation with a great sacrifice.

I am also not sure how you interpreted 3:107. You said "In the Abraham leaving scenario the "great/mighty sacrifice" would refer to the great sacrifice made by leaving his beloved son, making it a self-contained explanation."

What is the exchanged or ransom that was done by God for the operation to Abraham? the verse says "Wafadaynahu bithibhin AAatheemin"- "We ransomed him with a sacrifice great".

Would this make sense to say " we ransomed him(Abraham) with a great separation"?


For a few reasons I cannot accept this interpolation and I think it undermined the Quranic narrative to where much of the wisdom that can be extracted towards how such prophets interacted with such inspirations has been taken away. It also undermines the wisdom that can be extracted that shows how such prophets struggled with their capacity as being prophets and there struggles to understand what was from the Lord and what was not from the Lord and their eagerness to never disobey the Lord.

It was a good read, but I have to respectfully argue that I find that Abraham had a dream that he seemed very stunned by and which he obviously thought it was from the Lord.

We do understand from the Quran that Abraham is not foreign to inspirations and witnessing great miracles like how he was saved from the fire.

The dream lead him to ask what his son thought of it which also illustrated the belief they both had towards God. The son did seem certain with the belief in God and replied that in my own words that if this is what God had commanded then do what your commanded as this shows their trust in God.

This question by Abraham to his son also seems to show there could of been a little doubt and the struggle he was copping with, and would possibly be easier with the acceptance of his son.

They both submitted and as the practice was being taken place and the patience of the son was being illustrated and the act was being taking place as the sons head was flung down, God by His mercy had intervened and stopped this action and exchanged some how some way his son to a great sacrifice of some sort. No details given of how this happened and what was exchanged. However this is not surprising as also we understand those communities of the past had been shown miracles and Abraham also is one who seems to be familiar with the intervention of God when God saved him from the fire and made the fire to be cool.

Also no where in the Quran does it say God had commanded it.

Thanks for sharing

Salam
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: Wakas on October 17, 2019, 04:50:58 PM
peace brother Hamzeh,

Thank you for your considered reply. I note however you made no attempt to answer any of the questions cited in the list.

Quote
why does God call out to him "O' Abraham, Surely you have believed/confirmed the vision...." when yet Abraham still has not departed or separated from his son at this point.

What is the significance of this?

We do not know when Abraham was called, i.e. if it was immediately after this goodbye embrace, or shortly after etc. Either way my view works perfectly.

If you insist your argument has merit then the same argument can be said against your view, i.e. no actual slaughter took place.


Quote
...the son was said he would bare patience while the command was carried. So the command at this stage if taken as separation was not yet carried out nor did the son need to have patience because no separation was done yet and also the significance of the verse when God has called "O' Abraham" has been totally undermined and given little significance.

Please provide your Quranic evidence for your interpretation of the word in red bold above. Again, if you insist your argument has merit then the same argument can be said against your view, i.e. no actual slaughter had yet been carried out.
Interestingly, in your view the patience seems to refer to the son with his head down waiting patiently for the knife to strike (or whatever the slaughter method would be) - if you think this is befitting then each to their own. In any case the son being patient in your interpretation contradicts your interpretation of being flung down, as you put it. I mention this issue in Q4 in my list.


Quote
I am also not sure how you interpreted 3:107. You said "In the Abraham leaving scenario the "great/mighty sacrifice" would refer to the great sacrifice made by leaving his beloved son, making it a self-contained explanation."

What is the exchanged or ransom that was done by God for the operation to Abraham? the verse says "Wafadaynahu bithibhin AAatheemin"- "We ransomed him with a sacrifice great".

Would this make sense to say " we ransomed him(Abraham) with a great separation"?

The son was exchanged/ransomed with a mighty/great sacrifice, which Abraham made by separating from his son. This mighty deed was taken into account by God and he/they were rewarded as a result. It is a self contained explanation because there is absolutely nothing else mentioned in context. I prefer this rather than interpolating a sacrificial animal for example, which is the common understanding.

I also disagree with your view that my understanding somehow undermines other aspects of Quranic narratives. In fact, the opposite argument could be made, it is your view that undermines various aspects.


What I found most interesting about your reply was that your view seems to suffer from the objections you raised about mine. Once an attempt has been made to answer the questions in the list I think it will become obvious which view has the most issues, but as always, each to their own.


Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: Wakas on July 31, 2020, 04:46:34 PM
It is that time of the year again (according to Traditional Islam): Eid Al-Adha

Questions to ask about the traditional story:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Abraham-Sacrifice-Questions.html

(to this day no-one has attempted to answer all the questions)

Is it time to sacrifice our long held dogmatic beliefs? Perhaps.
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: inay321 on August 05, 2020, 06:33:27 AM
Salam

Brother Joseph. I just read your article 'Ishaac or Ismaeal'.
http://quransmessage.com/articles/ishmael%20or%20isaac%20FM3.htm


You made this point, saying that since Abraham's prayer in 37:100 was for a righteous son, then this adjective is told only about Isaac in 37:112, then the son who is "forbearing" in 37:101 and who was the subject of the dream can only be Isaac ..........

But Ismael, the son of Abraham is not described as "one of the righteous" in the narration in Sura 37, that is tre, it is Isaac who is given this description.
However when we read other Quranic verses we see that Ismaeal is described with that same adjective:
 
[21:85] Also, Ishmael, Enoch and Ezekiel; each one was among the steadfast.
[21:86] We admitted them into Our mercy. They were among the righteous.
 
God does not have to give us all details in one verse!
By reading all relevant verses together, we find that Abraham's prayer to be granted one of the righteous in 37:100, does not automatically point to Isaac, but it indicates that God answered the prayer of Abraham when He granted him Ismaeal as well as Isaac.

Salam

Inayah
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: Athman on August 06, 2020, 03:40:44 PM
Dear inay321,

Wa alaikum as-salaam,

Despite it being a direct address to Br. Joseph, I hope this response is acceptable.

From what I can gather from Br. Joseph’s article that you have cited, I don’t think that he argued against Prophet Ismaeel (pbuh) not being described as ‘of the righteous.’ In my understanding, what is being argued for is the “'narrative scope' of the same Surah of the Quran” [1] that is, chapter 37.

You noted: “"one of the righteous" in the narration in Sura 37, that is tre, it is Isaac who is given this description.” Now, I think this was the remit of Br. Joseph’s sentiment on this specific matter. He argues the flow of the narrative and what culminates into what (37:112) can be argued as fulfillment and answer to Prophet Ibrahim’s (pbuh) original prayer (37:100).

In another thread, Br. Joseph argues: “Before the 'wa' (and), the narrative was focused on Prophet Abraham's test and after the 'wa' (and), his original prayer in 37:100 was answered in 37:112.

The link is strong. The original prayer was for a 'saliheen' (righteous son) in 37:100. In 37:112 we note the conclusion of that prayer. This connection in my humble view, transcends the 'wa' (and) conjunction particle.” [3]

In the article, Br. Joseph ultimately summarizes his view in that verses 37:100ff focus on Prophet Isaac (pbuh) with his father Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) and that there’s no focus on Prophet Ismaeel (pbuh) in the whole narrative.

“In this way and given the discussions above, the whole narrative captured in (37.100 - 113) would be with regards Prophet Isaac, (pbuh) the son that Prophet Abraham (pbuh) saw in a dream to be sacrificed.” [2]

Thus, from such an approach, it is strongly argued that the prayer in 37:100 for ‘one of the righteous’ child is answered in 37:112 where such ‘one of the righteous’ is confirmed and more so, one who is a prophet - in this case Prophet Isaac (pbuh). Nonetheless, even if we consider the fact that Prophet Ismaeel (pbuh) is mentioned as ‘one of the righteous’ in 21:85-86 which undoubtedly he is, he still can’t be the ‘one of the righteous’ mentioned in 37:112 because the verse identifies such ‘one of the righteous’ (pbuh) to be Isaac (37:112).

On the other hand, I still find the popular Muslim view of Prophet Ismaeel (pbuh) being the ‘clement’ (haleem) child in 37:101 but still the same ‘righteous’ (swaliheen) one asked for in 37:100 to be a valid position on its own. Afterall, from such an approach, verses 21:85-86 do confirm the child prayed for in 37:100 (‘one of the righteous’) in this case Ismaeel (pbuh), to actually be ‘one of the righteous’ (21:86). This is different from saying that those who hold the ‘narrative scope’ of verses 37:100-112 to focus on Prophet Isaac (pbuh) do claim that Prophet Ismaeel (pbuh) is not described as ‘one of the righteous.’

I hope that clarifies.

Regards,
Athman.


REFERENCES:

[1]. Qur'an 11:71 Isaac and Ishmael

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=976.15

[2]. PROPHET ABRAHAM'S (pbuh) SACRIFICIAL SON - ISHMAEL OR ISAAC? (pbut)

http://quransmessage.com/articles/ishmael%20or%20isaac%20FM3.htm

[3]. The Sacrificial Son of Abraham - Ishmael or Isaac?

 http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=173.0
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: inay321 on August 08, 2020, 04:20:45 AM
Salam Athman

The context of any verse should not be taken from just that one verse, but from all the relevant Quranic input about the subject at hand.

But also from other verses that shed light on the same subject. If we shut the door and seek the truth from only one verse and those around it, we would be depriving ourselves of the more complete truth, which is often completed in other verses.

To conclude that the son in the dream (37:102) must be Isaac because Abraham prayed for a righteous son (37:100) and only Isaac is described as righteous in verses from 100 to 112 is to shut our eyes of other Quranic verses that complete the meaning and give a complete picture.

Ishmael is described as righteous in the Quran (21:85-86).
When we take all verses in consideration we can see that it is wrong to insist that the son in the dream could only be Isaac.

We would know that it could also be Ishmael because he was also righteous, and so would also be a fulfilment of Abraham's prayer in 37:100 for a righteous son.
The truth is what matters, and the truth does not have to be given in one verse only or in one Sura.

Are you saying the truth does not matter unless it is mentioned in Sura 37?
Are you serious? So what if it is another Sura?

What matters is that the prayer of Abraham for a righteous son does not have to be Isaac because Ishmael was also righteous, so his prayer was answered in Ishamel as well as Isaac ...
why does all the details have to be all in one Sura?
 
Anyway, here are other important verses about the same subject:
 
The following verse confirms that Ishmael was also a prophet and not only Isaac:
 
[19:54] And mention in the Book Ishmael. He was true to his promise, and he was a prophet messenger.
 
And the next verse is quite important in confirming the order of birth of Abraham's 2 sons.
God granted Abraham his son Ishmael first, then came Isaac, i.e. Ishmael was the first son
 
[14:39] Praise be to God for granting me, despite my old age, Ishmael and Isaac. My Lord is the Hearer of prayers.
 
If Isaac came first, Abraham would have said "Isaac and Ishmael":
 
Are you also going to say these pieces of information do not matter because we are looking only at Sura 37?

It is Ishmael .... the words in 37:112 are a new subject - after God told us about the dream of Abraham with Ishmael , God then tells us a New event in 37:112 , which was the coming of Isaac.

They are TWO DIFFERENT EVENTS

the first word in 37:112 is ''AND'' WE GAVE HIM THE NEWS ..... the word AND means and a new event.

God does not repeat the same truth in the narration in adjacent verses - if the son in 37:101 was the same son in 37:112 , God would need to repeat it.


Salam.

Inayah








Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: Wakas on August 09, 2020, 02:25:20 PM
peace Inayah,

Firstly, no-one is saying the so-called "sacrificial son" can only be Isaac.

Secondly, 14:39 doesn't "confirm" what you claim (i.e. order of birth) but certainly one could make such a case based on that verse but "confirm" is far too strong a word based on the evidence you presented. "suggests" is much more apt.

Thirdly, 37:112 does not mention "the coming of Isaac". Whenever the phrase "good news" is used it tells us what the "good news" is. In 37:112's case it is of "Isaac, a prophet from the righteous".

Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: Athman on August 09, 2020, 06:03:19 PM
Dear inay321,

As salaam alaikum,

Let me take this opportunity to first remind you that it is significantly of paramount importance to understand someone's or an article's position from their widest context of evidence shared. You have to respectfully consider all the threads shared and the arguments raised for you to comment/ contend any point - to pick and choose a point and draw contentions over it without considering its remit and in the long run confusing it with the wider position shared is in my opinion, unwarranted.

Kindly allow me to expound on this as I respond to your comments in purple below:

You shared:

"The context of any verse should not be taken from just that one verse, but from all the relevant Quranic input about the subject at hand."

I do concur. However, before consulting other verses from other Qur'anic narratives for any further clarification/ context, I would assert drawing a possible understanding of a verse(s) from its surrounding verses foremost to an extent possible - it may or may not be conclusive of course.

"But also from other verses that shed light on the same subject. If we shut the door and seek the truth from only one verse and those around it, we would be depriving ourselves of the more complete truth, which is often completed in other verses."

In the main, this is very correct. However, in my opinion, with all due respect, this is not a rule. I would for instance not find the need to consult other narratives related to one under study if that one under study is self-satisfying in whatever it intends to impart as a message. Other verses would only be consulted for a wider context and a wider message.

"To conclude that the son in the dream (37:102) must be Isaac because Abraham prayed for a righteous son (37:100) and only Isaac is described as righteous in verses from 100 to 112 is to shut our eyes of other Quranic verses that complete the meaning and give a complete picture."

As far as your previous sentiment is concerned, your contention was against Br. Joseph's position on the 'righteous' child in 37:100 to which I respectfully shared what appears to be his reasons for positing such a viewpoint. However, this is different from what you are now arguing which is against the whole article on the position of who was 'the son in the dream (37:102)" If this is what you intend to argue against, I think you need to respond to all the arguments raised in Br. Joseph's article and the other related threads against the traditional position of Prophet Ismaeel (pbuh) being the 'near sacrifice' son, especially those in [2] as he himself notes:

"For me to accept any viable alternative from a Quran's perspective (and not be unduly influenced by Ahadith or a Biblical perspective), I would need to be satisfied with cogent responses for the above contentions." [2]

My response was only in the context of the term 'righteous' (swaliheen) in 37:100 and even so, I also acknowledged the traditional position on this as a valid one on its own. See the last paragraph on my previous response.

"Ishmael is described as righteous in the Quran (21:85-86).
When we take all verses in consideration we can see that it is wrong to insist that the son in the dream could only be Isaac."

Respectfully, a position has been argued for, not merely an act of 'insisting.' As Br. Joseph rightly pointed out:

"So this is not a matter that I humbly feel we should 'resolve', but to feel content to state our position with citation of the best evidence we possibly can." [1]

Therefore, no one is trying to 'resolve' such a long debated matter. However, a position has to be taken especially where cogent citation of evidence has been made. Arguments and counter-arguments have to be addressed if one is to attack a particular position.

"We would know that it could also be Ishmael because he was also righteous, and so would also be a fulfilment of Abraham's prayer in 37:100 for a righteous son.
The truth is what matters, and the truth does not have to be given in one verse only or in one Sura."

As far as my analysis of relevant verses is concerned, I don't dispute that. However, you have respectfully missed my point and the article's main argument.

"Are you saying the truth does not matter unless it is mentioned in Sura 37?
Are you serious? So what if it is another Sura?"

There is no need to get emotional dear fellow member. You don't have to deal with my 'seriousness' nor that of Br. Joseph, you have to respectfully respond to the contentions raised.

"What matters is that the prayer of Abraham for a righteous son does not have to be Isaac because Ishmael was also righteous, so his prayer was answered in Ishamel as well as Isaac ...
why does all the details have to be all in one Sura?"

My position as regards 'righteousness' of Prophet Ismaeel (pbuh) in relation to the traditional position has already been stated in my previous response. Nevertheless, I have not mentioned anything along the lines of 'all the details have to be all in one Sura.' My contention and that of the article would be, why should we ignore the 'narrative scope' of verses 37:100-113 if they are self-evident and consult other Qur'anic narratives regardless if they are related?
 
"The following verse confirms that Ishmael was also a prophet and not only Isaac:
 
[19:54] And mention in the Book Ishmael. He was true to his promise, and he was a prophet messenger."

This is respectfully digressing in my opinion. The article and I have not argued against Ismaeel's (pbuh) prophethood.
 
"And the next verse is quite important in confirming the order of birth of Abraham's 2 sons.
God granted Abraham his son Ishmael first, then came Isaac, i.e. Ishmael was the first son
 
[14:39] Praise be to God for granting me, despite my old age, Ishmael and Isaac. My Lord is the Hearer of prayers.
 
If Isaac came first, Abraham would have said "Isaac and Ishmael":"

As far as Br. Joseph's position which you have been contending with is concerned on this, he has also stated:

"In fact the Quran confirms Prophet Ishmael as Prophet Abraham's first born such as in verse 14:39." [3]

However, I trust that you will both find Br. Wakas' comment above (Jazakallah brother) on this useful and to have been an apt reminder on your choice and use of words.
 
"Are you also going to say these pieces of information do not matter because we are looking only at Sura 37?"

See my previous response. Though a case can be argued for, it is respectfully still not unequivocal proof nor conclusive.

"It is Ishmael .... the words in 37:112 are a new subject - after God told us about the dream of Abraham with Ishmael , God then tells us a New event in 37:112 , which was the coming of Isaac.

They are TWO DIFFERENT EVENTS"

My concern has been, with respect, with your argument on the Qur'anic use of the term 'righteous' (swaliheen) and your unwarranted criticism of Br. Joseph's position on that matter - which has a specific remit of the 'narrative scope' underpinned by a host of arguments raised from within the same 'narrative scope.' I hope that you will kindly first appreciate this.

"the first word in 37:112 is ''AND'' WE GAVE HIM THE NEWS ..... the word AND means and a new event."

I don't entirely dispute this. However, it is also still inconclusive. With regards Br. Joseph's position, see his view cited below which you may consider responding to:

"The 'wa' (and) conjunction in my opinion does not separate the narratives with a view to deal with two separate personalities which runs as one theme from 37:100 to 37:113. The 'wa' (and) in my view only separates the time periods.

Before the 'wa' (and), the narrative was focused on Prophet Abraham's test and after the 'wa' (and), his original prayer in 37:100 was answered in 37:112.

The link is strong. The original prayer was for a 'saliheen' (righteous son) in 37:100. In 37:112 we note the conclusion of that prayer. This connection in my humble view, transcends the 'wa' (and) conjunction particle." [4]

"God does not repeat the same truth in the narration in adjacent verses - if the son in 37:101 was the same son in 37:112 , God would need to repeat it."

Why is this restriction imposed? I respectfully know of no such rule nor would I necessarily rule out a position which argues for that in such a Qur'anic narrative scope. However, I still find the traditional position of  verses 37:100-101 referring to Prophet Ismaeel (pbuh) and verse 37:112 to Prophet Ishaq (pbuh) valid in its own accord.

I hope that clarifies my position.

Regards,
Athman.


REFERENCES:

[1]. Qur'an 11:71 Isaac and Ishmael

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=976.15

[2]. The Sacrificial Son of Abraham - Ishmael or Isaac?

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=173.0

[3]. Ibid

[4]. Ibid
Title: Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
Post by: Athman on August 09, 2020, 06:53:15 PM
Dear Wakas,

As salaam alaikum,

With a view to briefly attempt responding to what appears to be your main arguments against the general position that takes 'dhibh' to mean 'sacrifice/ slaughter,' see my short responses below to your contentions 3 to 9 in blue as requested in the link shared [1] as a minimum.

You contend:

"3) The future particle "sa" occurs over 100 times in Quran. Can you provide one example of usage which matches how you claim it is used here, i.e. what comes after particle "sa" refers to an ongoing future activity that occurs prior to what came before particle "sa"?
Let me clarify, here is structure of the Arabic: ABC <future particle sa> XYZ
My view is XYZ occurs in the future, i.e. after ABC.Your view is XYZ occurs prior to ABC or XYZ occurs until ABC takes place.


In my view, I don’t find the need to raise concerns over the particle ‘sa’ nor consider such an analogy which I respectfully find incongruent. The particle ‘sa’ simply asserts the ‘sabr’ which Prophet Ibrahim’s (pbuh) son (pbuh) promises to exercise ‘once’ met with the ‘dhibh.’ Relative to the time he was uttering that speech, the expected ‘dhibh' and in fact the attempted one in 37:103 was ‘yet to be actioned’ hence a ‘future’ (sa) incident. So was the ‘sabr’ he promises to endure which is contextually linked to the assumed ‘amr’ from God - ‘dhibh.’ Hence, I find the illustration “ABC <future particle sa> XYZ” in this case without warrant.

"4) can you provide a Classical Arabic dictionary reference which states the meaning of the verb TaLLa can mean what you take it to mean and can be done in a gentle/soft/willing manner? i.e. without force.
Reason: the primary meaning of this definition is to throw down / make one prostrate / hold down / wrestle them down etc but Quran states both submitted so the action was willingly, i.e. no force needed."

It is the same verse 37:103 which uses both terms ‘aslama’ and ‘watallahu’ hence I don’t see your contention as raised against those who posit the meaning of ‘aslama’ to be 'a submissive decision' to the ‘dhibh.’ Rather, you appear to contend with the Qur’an itself as to why it suggests ‘submissiveness’ by using the term ‘aslama’ then use a seemingly ‘coercive’ term ‘watallahu.’  Would you kindly please clarify.

"5) can you provide an example elsewhere in Quran in which God rewards us/someone for what they were about to do but did not do.
Reason: stating "like thus We reward..." [37:105, 110] implies an exemplar, if so, where are the other examples, or where such a principle is mentioned.”

From my perspective, I would not pronounce it a clear cut ‘did not do’ instance especially from the point of view of God who holds accountable the intentions at heart (2:225) and focuses on the ‘taqwa’ in such intentions/ acts (22:37). In this case, the act was intended for God and in fact understood as a command from Him. It is also to be noted that it is God Himself who intervened the attempted ‘dhibh’ and thus hypothetically, if not for His intervention, the act would have been carried out. Thus, the ‘taqwa’ in intention of ‘dhibh’ for Him and in fact presumably from Him, had to reach Him as always does (22:37). Similarly, ‘monasticism’ (ruhbaniyyah) invented for God was rewarded (ajrahum) to those who were true ‘believers’ (amanu) - 57:27. As an ultimatum, it was finally the intent that was arguably rewarded for those 'believers' among them as a fundamental principle in 2:225. The actual ‘monasticism’ in its due observance was not achieved and yet believers among them were rewarded. Rather, the ‘intent’ and effort to do so mattered (regardless if the actual 'monasticism' was achieved) as did in the case of Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) in 37:103 as regards the sacrifice. It should however be noted that the 'monasticism' was not done as a command nor an assumed command from God but simply in the spirit of pleasing God - and voluntarily.

"6) can you provide another example in Quran wherein it states someone did X (e.g. perfect verb) but what is meant is they intended to do X.
Reason: you take "...when they both had submitted..." in 37:103 as submitted in intention only (i.e. not actually done the slaughter). Similar case with "...Surely you have believed/confirmed..." in 37:105, i.e. technically he hasn't confirmed it yet, i.e. it is intention only.
Note: perfect verbs are used thousands of times in Quran."

Respectfully, I find the comparison between perfect verbs of 37:103 and 37:105 to be made without warrant. In context, I find it odd that one expects the 'aslama' in 37:103 to be translated as 'submitted in the sense of having carried out the sacrifice' while the next phrase 'and he laid his forehead down' depicts an act that precedes the actual 'slaughter' action. In line with your view, it becomes superfluous that after the 'slaughter' (aslama) strangely followed by such an act to 'lay ones forehead down' ready for the sacrifice (again) that God confirms the same act at that point in time (qad swadaqta). It even worsens when He intervenes for 'fidya' while the 'sacrifice has already been carried out' (aslama).

"7)  preposition "li" occurs over 2000 times in Quran. Please provide clear examples of it meaning "upon" as you take it to mean in 37:103 (i.e. upon his forehead)."

The 'li' in 'lil jabeen' (37:103) takes the function of the particle 'ala' that is 'on/ upon' as it does in 'lil adhqani' (17:109).

"...laid him prostrate (watallahu) upon his forehead (lil jabeen)" [Qur'an, As-Swaffat 37:103]

"And they fall (wayakhirruna) upon their chins (lil adhqani) weeping..." [Qur'an, Al-Isra 17:109]

"8.) please explain why Quran describes the sacrifice/dhibhin in 37:107 as great/mighty/azeem?"

In my view, I don't consider the term 'dhibh' in 37:107 to refer to an alternative one in ransom. However, with such an understanding of an alternative ransom, it can simply be argued that given such a great 'evident trial' (balaul mubeen) that the 'ransom' (fidya) that replaces it is spiritually held in greatness (adhwim) regardless of its material value.

"9) If you consider killing of an innocent child an evil act and you consider God was simply testing Abraham but was always going to stop him before he actually did it, is there any other example similar to this in Quran (i.e. God commanding or condoning an evil act)? "

Respectfully, I would personally not refer to it as an act of God simply 'condoning an evil act' per se. Rather, I would relate to the fact that exercised volition among humans is a great virtue that is however under God's control. It is ultimately Him who determines the point at which to intervene. See the example of Prophet Yusuf (pbuh) in 12:23-24 where God intervenes at the verge of Prophet Yusuf (pbuh) being given into his master's seductive wife (12:24).

I hope that gives some perspective God willing.

Regards,
Athman.


REFERENCE:

[1]. Follow up to: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son?

 http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Abraham-Sacrifice-Questions.html