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The Quran => General Discussions => : Bassam Zawadi May 06, 2013, 10:32:28 PM

: Who Determines What is Absurd?
: Bassam Zawadi May 06, 2013, 10:32:28 PM
I come across many Quranists who claim that they reject many ahaadith because they appear to be "absurd" and "ridiculous" and "an insult to one's intelligence".

But whose subjection opinion is the correct one when it comes to determining what is absurd? There are many atheists who would claim that the following things from the Qur'an:

- Jesus made birds from clay
- One of the Jins claimed to bring the throne of the Queen of Sheba within the blink of an eye
- Moses parted the sea with his staff
- The staff turned into a snake
- The hoopoe bird spoke to Sulayman
- Ibrahim was shown split dead brids brought back to life
- Some men slept for 300 years.
- Sodom and Gomorah were destroyed
- A she camel came out of a mountain for the people of Saleh
- A floating mountain was brought on top of Banu Israel
- A stone gave water for the twelve tribes of Israel
- An ant spoke and Sulayman heard it talk
- The army of elephants was destroyed by little birds
- The Prophet was taken to masjid al Aqsa and then to the seventh heaven in one night
- etc. etc. etc.


Are ridiculous.

So who draws the line? How do we remain intellectually consistent?


Bassam
: Re: Who Determines What is Absurd?
: Joseph Islam May 06, 2013, 11:02:09 PM
Dear Bassam,

May peace be with you.

You may be surprised what some 'Quranists' claim. As I am not a Quranist, I would find it inappropriate to defend their position personally.

However, you ask a relevant question.

I suppose if the Quran only made the above claims that you share, then even you and I would arguably question whether the Book was merely a source of myths and fantasies.

But as you and I both know, the above narratives are provided with a context and in the main to support the extant knowledge of certain factions of the primary audience be they People of the Book, or otherwise. They are narrated with an underlying premise and subsequent purpose.

For the major part of the Quran, it is interlaced with a plethora of narratives which speak very convincingly of matters which assault the intellect inclining one to consider its Divine provenance.

Narrating history to the ancients is one thing, dealing with arguments to prove an evident reality of God's authority and evident truth is quite another.

I trust that you will agree.

Regards,
Joseph.
: Re: Who Determines What is Absurd?
: Wakas May 07, 2013, 09:12:50 PM
salaam Bassam,

But whose subjection opinion is the correct one when it comes to determining what is absurd?

The Quran is the criterion. Here is a short list:

What does The Quran say?

The following is a brief list taken directly from The Quran on how to process information, read, study and understand it:

16:98 - seek God's spiritual aid, away from the forces of satan/opposition (e.g. emotional instability, personal desire, self-delusion, arrogance, prejudice, deviation).
3:7 - ground oneself in solid principles, maintain sincerity.
6:56, 13:37, 30:29, 42:14-15 - be wary of following desires as opposed to following God's revelation.
3:195, 4:135, 5:8, 8:61, 28:54, 42:40 - remain true to its principles of justice, equivalence, fairness, compassion, opting for the good/better response etc.
6:114, 12:111, 15:90-91, 17:89, 16:89, 18:54, 39:27 - try to utilise and appreciate its complete system of concepts.
4:82 - anything from God will not have contradiction/inconsistency/variance. This also applies to our understanding as well. If we formulate a correct interpretation of The Quran, we will find that everything falls into place. This is one of the most crucial criteria.
5:101, 20:114, 25:32, 73:20, 75:17 - do not rush our learning, read what is easy of it, gradually build knowledge and acceptance to strengthen one's heart, and ask God to increase our knowledge.
73:4-5 - in order to receive a weighty or profound word or saying, we need to arrange the likenesses in The Quran, e.g. cross-reference concepts/words/topics.
21:10, 30:30, 41:53, 51:20-21  - its information and teachings should map to our reality (within our psyche, experience and to the furthest horizons). All signs, internal and external can point to the truth of it and act as a verification mechanism.
29:20, 3:137, 3:190-191, 45:3-4 - knowledge of archaeology/biology/physics/history/sciences/philosophy etc will all help to better understand it.
6:75-79, 21:57-67, 36:78-79, 21:22, 23:91, 2:258, 12:26-27, 22:5-6, 2:260 - promotes logical thinking.
2:269, 8:22 - strong affinity towards use of wisdom and reason.
49:6, 45:24, 6:116, 53:28, 2:111, 21:24 - disapproves of conjecture/guesswork and promotes examination of evidence.
34:46, 6:50, 2:219, 3:191, 10:24, 16:44, 30:21 - shows the importance of reflection, to deeply consider/think.
47:24, 23:68 - "tadabbur" means to ponder over something giving careful consideration to its consequences.
41:44 - language is not a barrier, belief/acceptance of it will help understanding.
25:33, 17:41 - it contains the best response/explanation.
39:18, 42:38 - listen and consider other views and follow what is best of them.
6:116, 12:106 - majority opinion can be baseless.
2:2, 3:138, 10:37 - a guide for the god-conscious/forethoughtful, there is no doubt in it, thus understandings which raise doubt about it must be carefully reviewed.
17:45-46 - to not believe in the hereafter can act as a barrier to its understanding.
12:3, 18:54, 17:89, 7:176, 12:111 - look to its internal examples, stories within it give us lessons, it is a clarification for all things.
2:170, 7:28, 6:112, 7:70, 26:74, 43:23 - advised not to blindly follow the teachings of our ancestors.
17:36, 39:9 - seek knowledge, verify, use your God-given senses.
25:1, 2:185, 6:114-115 - it is the criterion with which to determine/judge.
7:204, 9:122, 6:104-105 - give it full attention, focus, spend time studying it.
19:76 - it increases guidance for the guided, i.e. those who continuously turn towards, seek it and follow it.
22:46, 7:179 - open your heart and mind.
13:17 - any interpretation must always be understood in a way that is focused on benefiting mankind and our development.
15:1, 17:82, 36:2, 2:97, 45:20, 10:57, 56:77, 85:21 - any understanding should reflect its attributes, such as: wisdom, mercy, healing, noble, glad tidings, blessing, clear etc.
17:9 - guides to what is straight/upright/establishing.
20:2 - it has not been sent to make us suffer unnecessarily, thus any interpretation should bear this in mind.
22:54, 34:37 - those closest are those who believe and do good works, implying god-consciousness/righteousness and understanding could go hand in hand.
56:79 - purity of mind/heart will grasp it. Work on this aspect of oneself as you seek guidance.
3:79, 75:18 - apply what you learn/know.
39:27-29 - variance rejected, no crookedness, one consistent source is the preference.
4:87, 31:6 39:23, 77:50 - stick with a solid/proven source, not a baseless narration/hadith. The Quran is the best, most truthful and only obligatory hadith.
: Re: Who Determines What is Absurd?
: optimist May 08, 2013, 05:55:20 PM
Salaam!

Actually what is ridiculous is to compare the things mentioned in Quran with ahaadith.  Even the eyes of shame will bow down in shame at some of the ahaadith attributed to the prophet.  If common people read one time (with eyes open) the so called ahaadith (not just the ones normally narrated to them with care) they would revolt against the clergy for sure. 

Thank you brother Wakas for your useful quote.

Regards,
Optimist
: Re: Who Determines What is Absurd?
: Bassam Zawadi May 08, 2013, 06:21:36 PM
I don't think I am satisfied with any of the responses I have seen. Allow me to share with you the testimony of a person who converted to Quran onlyism and then eventually abandoned it. See his testimony below:

My testimony already appears in Ibn Warraq's anthology on apostates, so I will only summarize here (and add a few things, as I presently feel that if I could edit my testimony in Warraq's book, I would).

I came from a liberal Christian background, but in 1996 (at the very end of high-school) I became part of the New York City Church of Christ (which is, for the most part, a fundamentalist Evangelical sect/cult). Very quickly, however, I began to have doubts due to a number of issues (on the one hand I wondered about the Church's approach dietary habits and, to a lesser degree, the sabbath, and on the other hand I began to be troubled by the doctrine of the Trinity and apparent "contradictions" in the Bible).

By the time I reached college, I already began to become interested in Islam (this was brought on by a combination of Ahmed Deedat videos, websites that attempted to establish the veracity of Islam over Christianity, and discussions with various Muslims I had met at the City University of New York). Looking back, I'm a bit ashamed of how easily I believed the dawaganda I read (at the time I was particularly interested in the claim that the Bible predicted the coming of Muhammad).

However (and there are many who will say something similar), while I was very pleased with Ahmed Deedat's onslaughts on the Bible, I began to get the feeling that the ahaadeeth could not stand up to the criteria Deedat demanded the Bible be judged by. As a result, I began to seriously doubt Orthodox Islam as well, before I even had a chance to convert! Ironically, I met a Submitter (i.e. a hadith-rejecting Muslim) at school, and he introduced me to other Submitters (a bunch of whom went to my college).

Very quickly I embraced the version of Islam espoused by the Submitters (note however that the group I was associated with was not connected to Rashad Khalifa's group, though I imagine they got the idea from his group). Once a Muslim, I set out to debate Christians on the internet (mainly via AOL chats and instant messages, though to a lesser degree via usenet), hoping to show the "Tri-Theists" the new truth I had discovered.

However, there was a perverse nature to my behavior, as I was anxious to bring the Christians to Islam, but not as anxious to do such with the so-called "Sunni pagans". We would sit around and say many negative things about Sunni Muslims (even criticizing the shahaada, which I never recited because it was a statement of shirk developed by the innovating Sunni pagans), but not once did I ever make a face-to-face attempt to convince one on campus that he was off the path (even more ironic, and blatantly contradictory, we interpreted verses in Soorat al-Baqara and Soorat al-Maida as teaching that Christians and Jews could go to Jannah, yet we simultaneously thought that "Sunni Pagans" were on their way to Jahannam, with the Hindus and Atheists). We were simply a small close-knit group of heterodox Muslims who made a real effort to be invisible to the Orthodox Muslims (in fact, not once while I considered myself a Muslim did I ever go to an MSA meeting!).

By 1999, I started having doubts after taking a class on Hinduism. While reading the colorful stories about castles made of bees wax, Siva replacing Ganesh's head with that of an elaphant, or Hannuman jumping over the ocean, I suffered a moment of doubt. I was in the middle of laughing at the stories and silently mocking them, when suddenly it hit me that they are no more absurd than the belief that Jesus was born of a virgin, that Moses split the ocean and turned a stick into a snake, or that Solomon had conversations with animals.

Once the doubt set in, the flood gates were open. I suddenly realized that the only reason I converted to Islam in the first place was because I had doubts about specific parts of Christianity, but still wanted to hold on the core myths and legendary figures. Islam provided me with a solution to that problem. Not once had I ever questioned the stories in Islam. Now I began to doubt them all.

I spent the fall of 1999 in a fog, not sure if I was an Atheist or a Muslim. I even began to put forth Atheistic arguments before officially considering myself an Atheist. It was when a disappointed friend asked me "are you an Atheist?" that I responded with "yeah, I guess so." The next day I was in Thompkin's Square Park and the full-implications of Atheism hit me: there is no God. I took a deep breath, and looked around me, and a very beautiful feeling came over me. While I don't claim that Atheism is the cure for depression -in fact I know that some people have sunk into depression after becoming Atheists- it is nonetheless a fact that I spent most of my life depressed (even when I was a Christian and Muslim), yet when I went Atheist in 1999, my depression vanished, and has yet to return. Regardless of that, the fact is nonetheless that I had reached a point of no return - I could never go back to believing such fantastic stories (just as we immediately doubt the reliability of tabloid newspapers dedicated to stories about UFOs, Big Foot, and two-headed babies, so too I feel we should agree that the fantastic stories in Islam are a sure sign that the authors of the Islamic texts were writing theology, not history).

Ever since abandoning Islam, I have investigated the religion, and I continue to wonder how I ever could believe something like that without really thinking about it. While I know a great deal more about Islam now than I did then, I still feel uncomfortable with how little critical thought I put into my decision to consider the religion in the first place.

While my position has towards Islam has softened over the years (most apostates from a faith often have a bloody-thirsty zeal for destroying the faith in the beginning), I still think it is important to directly call into question the veracity of Islam. This is particularly true with regard to the aggressive forms of apologia employed (exempli gratia: claims about scientific miracles, Muhammad in the Bible, et cetera). This is why it is important to explain (a) why one left Islam, and (b) why one continues to disbelieve in Islam. The opposing view is, at this point, still so rarely expressed.


This is the point I am making. This whole "I find it ridiculous and absurd, hence I will reject it" approach seems quite subjective to me. I don't think we should reject things for subjective reasons. This is why I don't take the "this hadith is absurd and laughable" route of many Quranist polemicists very seriously.
: Re: Who Determines What is Absurd?
: optimist May 09, 2013, 08:37:17 AM
Salaam!

Fristly, to calssify all the people who focus on Quran alone without relying on secondary 'sources' as "Quranist" is a an agenda of traditionalists to corner them and project them as a deviated group/sect.   I can agree with you there are many people who claim to focus on Quran try to interpret its verses to promote their personal views/ agenda (for instance, I read some one saying permission to have sexual relation with aw mamalakat aymanuhum includes permission to have sex with girl friend).

Anyhow, regarding your comment, the so called claim of atheists about "absurdities" from Quran, the maximum one can say it is impossible to believe in literal sense those things mentioned in the Quran, like the staff turned into a snake,  the hoopoe bird spoke to Sulayman, and Ibrahim was shown split dead birds brought back to life, an ant spoke and Sulayman heard it talk, the army of elephants was destroyed by little birds, etc.   There is also the issue of literal interpretation of certain allegorical narratives as pointed out by many scholars.  Brother Wakas has pointed out how we should approach Quran, process information, read, study and understand it. 

What you are doing here is wrong.  You are purposefully trying to compare certain verses from Quran (in the pretext of atheist claim) with the things mentioned in the ahaadith.  The case of ahaadith is totally different.  If I start posting some of the so called authentically recorded hadiths from Bukhari and Muslim (contradicting Quran, contradicting common sense, tarnishing the image of the prophet, even insulting Allah) you will flee away from this thread.

Regards,
Optimist
: Re: Who Determines What is Absurd?
: Bassam Zawadi May 09, 2013, 12:51:30 PM
Again, you aren't answering the question. What is the objective standard for determining what is absurd or not? Can you tackle this question directly please?

As for taking those things from the Qur'an metaphorically..... well I see no evidence for doing so. There is nothing metaphorical about them. Musa either parted the sea or he didn't. Musa's staff either transformed into a snake or didn't. The context no where shows that it's metaphorical.

Given that they are literal... again.... why aren't those "absurd" but things from the ahaadith are?

Bassam
: Re: Who Determines What is Absurd?
: Adil Husain May 09, 2013, 01:04:51 PM
May Peace be with you dear members ,

The Concept of God itself can not be proved scientifically and will appear 'Absurd' to many Atheist. This does not mean that God does not exist. Science has it limits. there are many questions that science can not answer. Like , How the universe came into existence ? , etc...

The believers have faith in God  and anyone who have faith in God will not deny that Miracles can happen if it is God's will . If it is God's will , anything can happen including the the points you mentioned above.

2:117
Initiator of the heavens and the earth, when He decrees a command, He merely says to it: ‘Be,’ and it is.

Quran speaks about  events of the past to guide the mankind. There is no way to to prove  that the miracles mentioned in the Quran were myths and false stories.  On the Other Hand , Hadith Instructs to adopt inappropriate lifestyle in our day to day life and this can be disproved Quranically and scientifically.


Hadith Contradicting Quran :

Quran : there is no compulsion in Deen 2:256 ;
 Hadith : Death penalty to the one who leave Islam.

Quran : Prophet never performed miracles 17:59 , 6:35 ,
 Hadith : prophet performed miracles publicly like splitting the moon , etc.

Quran : There should not be an intention of lust while marrying.
Hadith : Temporary marriage in allowed when Women is scarce and badly needed (Bukhari 7/51).



If a  narration contradicts Quranic teaching , isn't it absurd ?

There is another Hadiths which are scientifically wrong :

I will mention 2 examples here.

BUKHARI HADITH :  VOLUME  , BOOK 54, NUMBER 537:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said "If a house fly falls in the drink of anyone of you, he should dip it (in the drink), for one of its wings has a disease and the other has the cure for the disease."

Houseflies are recognized as carriers of easily communicable diseases. Flies collect pathogens (disease causing organisms) on their legs and mouths when female lay eggs on decomposing organic matter such as feces, garbage and animal corpses.
 
Diseases transmitted by flies
Typhoid
-Anthrax
-Cholera (watery Diarrhea)
-Dysentery (bloody diarrhea)
-Viral Hepatitis (Disease of liver)
-egg of helminths ( worms of intestine)
-Amoebiasis (ulcer causing disease of intestine leading to amoebic dysentery )
-Enteroviruses

BUKHARI HADITH:  Volume 4, Book 55, Number 546:
Narrated Anas:
When 'Abdullah bin Salam heard the arrival of the Prophet at Medina, he came to him and said, "I am going to ask you about three things which nobody knows except a prophet:
1)What is the first portent of the Hour?
2)What will be the first meal taken by the people of Paradise?
3)Why does a child resemble its father, and why does it resemble its maternal uncle"...............As for the resemblance of the child to its parents: If a man has sexual intercourse with his wife and gets discharge first, the child will resemble the father, and if the woman gets discharge first, the child will resemble her."............(continued)

Unlike Quran , This Hadith is not mentioning event of the past but a process which happens during each and every intercourse with successful  fertilization.

And lastly , I will personally dislike if someone writes  about my life  more than 200 years after my death and describing about my sexual relations with my wife in it.  and if someone does so for our beloved Prophet Muhammad , how can it be acceptable to me ?


Regards,
Adil



: Re: Who Determines What is Absurd?
: Saba May 09, 2013, 02:30:50 PM
Salaam....I wanted to say thank you to br. Bassam and br. Joseph (as usual) for a thoughtful and v. friendly discussion on this topic! I can often be quite short and this is nice for me too see and learn from - so thanx much!

>br. Bassam you said "What is the objective standard for determining what is absurd or not? Can you tackle this question directly please?"

I think brother Adil also makes a valid point to this question .....

The question can be asked what 'objective' standard can be used to determine God's existence as an atheist may ask?.... Are not all interpretations subjective? If so, would it not be unfair to ask this about someones' interpretation of the Qur'an?   Saba  8)
: Re: Who Determines What is Absurd?
: Bassam Zawadi May 10, 2013, 12:34:17 AM
I don't think the arguments for the existence of God are subjective at all. I believe there are sound rational arguments for his existence which hold true regardless of time and place and aren't dependent on one's personal experience and opinion.
: Re: Who Determines What is Absurd?
: Bassam Zawadi May 10, 2013, 12:35:28 AM
Adil,

I wouldn't mind addressing each and every single point you raised, since they've been addressed already by traditional Muslims.

However, it's not related to the topic of this thread.

Thanks
: Re: Who Determines What is Absurd?
: optimist May 10, 2013, 08:22:18 PM
Again, you aren't answering the question. What is the objective standard for determining what is absurd or not? Can you tackle this question directly please?
Salaaam!

In one word, to answer you, the objective standard for us should be if it is from God.  And if it is from God there shall be no contradiction and there is no question something to be absurd (provided that the verses of the Quran are studied and researched keeping in mind the points brother Wakas has quoted and without interpreting the verses based on other sources. 

As for taking those things from the Qur'an metaphorically..... well I see no evidence for doing so.

As you are aware, the verses of the Quran are two kinds - one consists of those verses which have definite meaning-mukakamaat”, and the other kind is that of those verses which are figurative and explain abstract realities metaphorically (3:6).  At one place, the Quran has been mentioned as “..kitaabam mutashaabikum...” (39:23).  There its meanings are that all its verses have similarity with each other - there is no contradiction or discrepancy among them ie. these are consistent with each other (4:82).  To explain the point little more;

In connection with Nikah, it is said: “Hurrimat alaykum ummahaatukum...” (4:23) - “prohibited to you (for marriage) are your mothers...”.  Here the real meaning of umm (mother) will be taken. But where it is said., “with Him is the Mother of the Book." (13:39), here the meaning of the word Umm will be taken as a metaphor or it will be said that the Quran has explained the reality allegorically, i.e. their description is metaphorical.

It has been said about Allah “...Summas tawaa alal arsh...” (and is firmly established on the Throne).  The real meaning of arsh is “throne”, but in this context it does not mean a real wooden cot but it means  “Allah’s power and authority”.    Therefore the word arsh has been used metaphorically.  The meaning totally will change if the words are taken in their real meaning.

The Quran also uses metaphorical language in regard to Jannah.  Even the verse starts with explaining Jennah, “A similitude of the Jannah which is promised unto those keep their duty to Allah: underneath it streams flow; its fruit everlasting and its shade” (13:35; 47:15).  "Similitude" is the key-word in the above verse. It is significant and highly suggestive. We are clearly warned against insisting on the literal meaning of the words in which the pleasures and comforts of Jannah are described.  In fact, Jannah cannot be described: it can only be symbolised. The Quran is explicit on this point, as the following verse shows: “No one knows what joy of the eye is reserved for them as a reward for what they do”(32 : 17).

There is nothing metaphorical about them. Musa either parted the sea or he didn't. Musa's staff either transformed into a snake or didn't. The context no where shows that it's metaphorical.
Given that they are literal... again.... why aren't those "absurd" but things from the ahaadith are?

Firstly, let me tell you that, even without proving metaphorical understanding of the verses, one can easily prove that the absurdities mentioned in the ahaadith does not qualify to be even compared with the things stated in the Quran.  You are simply shooting in the air to make confusion in the mind of ordinary people in your attempt to justify some of ridiculous and absurd hadiths collected by hadith compilers and presented to us as authentic reports.

Anyhow, regarding the possibility of metaphorical explanation, I will explain in short metaphorical meaning of some of the verses you have have quoted above in your initial post. 

- The army of elephants was destroyed by little birds

The Quran did not mention in the verse the birds threw stones.  What happened was flocks of eagles and vultures (which normally fly over the armies/ over caravans of trade to pick up remnants of dead bodies and other eatables) started hovering over their heads and people realized some army was on the move behind the mountains and the secret plan was thus exposed.  Then people climbed over the mountain and started pelting them with stones,  and it is the severe stone pelting and terrified elephants fleeing back crushing the army that made them to look like chewed-up stubble.

- An ant spoke and Sulayman heard it talk

This is a beautiful narration that explains the status of the people lived in the valley in comparison to the mighty army of Sulayman.   It has nothing to do a valley containing full of ants.  The people in the valley were afraid that Sulayman’s army might crush them on his way for an attack on state of Sheba and the Namlath (probability of a woman ruling) directed her subjects not to cause disruption to the army of Sulayman and directing her people to confine to their dwellings without causing any disruption to Sulayman.  When Sulayman heard about this news he smiled, because the poor souls misunderstood that Sulayman would crush them since normally when a royal army passes an area, it brings nothing but haphazard destruction for all those on their way. 

The hoopoe bird spoke to Sulayman

The literal understanding of Tair is the problem for creating confusion here.  Tair in the context of the verse means fast horses: (cavalry).  It is said prophet David: wattiara mahshoora: 38:19 he had an army of very fast horses. Also Sulayman syas in 27:16 ullimna mantiqat tair which literally means “we were taught the languages of the tair”, however, it actually means "we have been trained as how to man the horses".  It may be noted the usage of plural word "we" herem referubg not just prophet solomon.  Wa tafaqqadat tayr in 27:20 means that prophet Solomon searched for riders of fast horses (who were not present there at that time). And when they arrived he asked them, where is your chief Hud-Hud?  Has he gone somewhere for a while or is he absent from his duty? If he is absent (then according to the rules of the army) I will severely punish him.  And if he does not produce any explicit authority (permission slip), he may even be sentenced to death.  Prophet solomon made use of horses and the power of wind and all natural resources in its best use to strengthen his army.   Kindly check verse 34:12 which states; “And to Solomon (We made) the Wind (obedient): Its early morning (stride) was a month's (journey), and its evening (stride) was a month's (journey).   Can you tell me what does it mean wind obedient?  It is a beautiful representation of how he ulilized and exploited the power of wind for the fleet of boats he had.   Solomon had full knowledge of the direction of winds and how to utilize it in the most efficient way.  As a result, in one day or even the earlier part of the day, his boats covered distances that other boats would travel in a month.  Similar long distances were covered in the later part of the day.  Can you tell me your understanding of "Its early morning (stride) was a month's (journey), and its evening (stride) was a month's (journey)"?  I believe what I mentioned above is the best explanation.   

- The staff turned into a snake

The staff turned into snake is another beautiful allegory of the actual truth prevailing over  falsehood.  What was actually happened was not a magical victory but a victory in an intellectual debate.  You may note the initial speech made by Prophet Moses giving a strong warning to the “magicians” (his priests) not to fabricate lies against Allah.  Do you think such a command will be directed to some magicians who came there to perform magical tricks?  Also kindly note the comment in verse 26:40 "Perhaps we can follow the magicians if they are the winners”.  What way people thought to follow magicians?  Also note the request from Moses to strengthen him with his brother since he is an expert in public speech.  It is interesting to note, in biblical narration it is brother Aaron who is in fact throwing the stick which points the possibility of Aaron doing a major role in the public debate.   There are several interesting points I want to point out, but not now, at some other stage.

- Moses parted the sea with his staff

This is the perfect example of forces of nature siding with those who remain steadfast in the path of Allah. In verse 41:30, ‘In the case of those who say, Our Lord is Allah", and, further, stand straight and steadfast, the angels descend on them’.  On that occasion of battle of badar notice Allah said to the Malaika: “I have promised My succour to the Momineen. I will be with you. You steady the hearts of the faithful and I will cast dread into the hearts of their enemies.” (8:12). Notice how some of the forces of nature sided with Muslims in badr giving Muslims great psychological strength.  Quran says there was raining (8:11) that made them relaxed and removed from them all anxieties.  The forces of nature also sided with Moses and his people.  Biblical narration states that the sea went back by a strong east wind, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.  But the incident is symbolically explained by way of Moses hitting on the surface of the sea with his staff and the sea getting split.

Regards
Optimist
: Re: Who Determines What is Absurd?
: Bassam Zawadi May 10, 2013, 08:48:47 PM
In one word, to answer you, the objective standard for us should be if it is from God.

I agree with you..... we should first find out God's true word and then determine what is absurd based on that.

We cannot in our quest for truth reject something by claiming it's absurd.

This is why the argument "this hadeeth is for sure not from God because it's absurd" isn't a convincing argument to the traditionalist.

You are simply shooting in the air to make confusion in the mind of ordinary people in your attempt to justify some of ridiculous and absurd hadiths collected by hadith compilers and presented to us as authentic reports.

That's your own personal opinion backed with no objective evidence.

The Quran did not mention in the verse the birds threw stones.

Surah 105: 4-5:

And He sent against them birds in flocks, Striking them with stones of hard clay,



: Re: Who Determines What is Absurd?
: optimist May 11, 2013, 06:14:25 AM
This is why the argument "this hadeeth is for sure not from God because it's absurd" isn't a convincing argument to the traditionalist.
Salam,

Even a single hadith from Bukhari iteself will demolish the claim that ahaadith is from GOD.

Bukhari: Volume 4, Book 52, Number 283: Narrated Abu Juhaifa: I asked Ali, Do you have the knowledge of any Divine Inspiration besides what is in Allah's Book?" 'Ali replied, "No, by Him who splits the grain of corn and creates the soul.  I don't think we have such knowledge,  but we have the ability of understanding which Allah may endow a person with, so that he may understand the Qur'an, and we have what is written in this paper as well. I asked, what is written in this paper? He replied, (The regulations of) blood-money, the freeing of captives, and the judgment that no Muslim should be killed for killing an infidel.

Can you let me know if there is any footnote for the above hadith (from any scholar) saying that it is unauthentic?

And He sent against them birds in flocks, Striking them with stones of hard clay,

The phrase in the Quran is thought provoking.  I can agree with you the act of throwing here could be interpreted to mean as birds throwing (even the enemy army on the ground might have felt it in the way).  The Quran says Allah sent birds of flocks, focusing on the point the complete plan of destroying the enemy army was initiated and based on Allah's plan.  The actual throwing of stones by people on top of the mountain is not focused here, because, please note, in verse 8:17 wherein it says وَمَا   رَمَيْتَ إِذْ رَمَيْتَ وَلَٰكِنَّ اللَّهَ رَمَىٰ .  Here, actually the shooting of arrows which was taking place in the battle of badr was not actually done by Allah, but Allah attributes this act as if He himself is doing.  So the point must be clear now why in 105:4-5 the focus is not on thowing of stones by the people on top of the mountain, but attributable to mean the birds thowing the stones (birds can only drops stones!).   I strongly believe that in view of verse 8:17 mentioned above the act of thowing could be be interpreted to mean actually people on top of the mountain thowing the stones but attributable to birds to establish Allah's direct and complete control of the whole incident and to confirm the point that it was ultimately Allah who destroyed the enemey.

Regards,
Optimist
: Re: Who Determines What is Absurd?
: Bassam Zawadi May 11, 2013, 06:49:35 AM
Even a single hadith from Bukhari iteself will demolish the claim that ahaadith is from GOD.

Bukhari: Volume 4, Book 52, Number 283: Narrated Abu Juhaifa: I asked Ali, Do you have the knowledge of any Divine Inspiration besides what is in Allah's Book?" 'Ali replied, "No, by Him who splits the grain of corn and creates the soul. I don't think we have such knowledge, but we have the ability of understanding which Allah may endow a person with, so that he may understand the Qur'an, and we have what is written in this paper as well. I asked, what is written in this paper? He replied, (The regulations of) blood-money, the freeing of captives, and the judgment that no Muslim should be killed for killing an infidel.

Can you let me know if there is any footnote for the above hadith (from any scholar) saying that it is unauthentic?

Notice the bit...

and we have what is written in this paper as well. I asked, what is written in this paper? He replied, (The regulations of) blood-money, the freeing of captives, and the judgment that no Muslim should be killed for killing an infidel.

That's all that Ali had written with him at the time.

Of course much more clarification could be given, however I don't see the point since you apriori appear to reject traditional sources.

I just want to bring to your attention that it's wrong to cherry pick this hadeeth and ignore the other narrations containing 'Ali. For example, if Ali were truly a Qur'an Only Muslim like yourself would he have said...

Narrated `Ali:
Allah's Messenger () prohibited Al-Mut'a marriage and the eating of donkey's meat in the year of the Khaibar battle. (Bukhari, Book 72, Hadith 50)

Make sure if you want to cite one hadeeth, then allow the others to clarify.

I strongly believe that in view of verse 8:17 mentioned above the act of thowing could be be interpreted to mean actually people on top of the mountain thowing the stones but attributable to birds to establish Allah's direct and complete control of the whole incident and to confirm the point that it was ultimately Allah who destroyed the enemey.

I think this is an example of why Qur'an Onlyism is problematic. It allows us to interpret things the way we see fit.

Surah 8:17 emphasizes Allah's complete control, while in Surah 105 it makes no sense to say that it's human beings throwing stones off mountains, but attributable to birds in order to "confirm the point that it was ultimately Allah who destroyed the enemey". I can't see how attributing it to birds instead of Allah like in 8:17 achieves what you say.

Again, this is the problem with Qur'an Onlysim. There is standard for interpretation.
: Re: Who Determines What is Absurd?
: optimist May 11, 2013, 09:29:25 AM
Of course much more clarification could be given, however I don't see the point since you apriori appear to reject traditional sources.

Salam,

Wherein Ali (r) said what is written in the paper is divine revelation?   The question posed to Ali and the answer given by him is very clear. "Do you have the knowledge of any Divine Inspiration besides what is in Allah's Book?" 'Ali replied, "No, by Him who splits the grain of corn and creates the soul. I don't think we have such knowledge, but we have the ability of understanding which Allah may endow a person with, so that he may understand the Qur'an".   Even from the context, what we can conclude maximum is that there is NO question of any divine revelation outside Quran and the regulations mentioned in the in the written paper were prepared by prophet and his companions in mutual consultation to meet the needs of specific circumstances (based on Ali's own words in the same hadith, "the ability of understanding which Allah may endow a person with, so that he may understand the Qur'an").  Can you tell me where is that written paper or the contents of the written paper mentioned by Ali available in the world if it was actually a divine revelation?  Ali would be contradicting his initial comment if the contents of the paper available with him were in fact divine revelation.   And also even assuming what is written in the written paper were divine revelation,  based on the hadith it would mean that it was only what were written on the paper that were divine revelations outside Quran.  THINK.

You comment  "if Ali were truly a Qur'an Only Muslim" is silly because the Quran was the only source of religious guidance for all muslims lived at that time.   As a leader of the community, as a ruler, the prophet may have prohibited many bad practices, like Mut'a, prevailed in the soceity based on general directives contained in the Quran.  It has nothing to do a revelation outside Quran.   Simply, you do not need a wahi/ revelation regarding prophibition of Mu'ta marriage to prohibit it.  It is just like, for instance, an Islamic government in present world prohibiting smoking and drug abuse (considering social factors, health hazards and other factors) and ofcourse based on general directives in the Quran.   Can someone come up with an objection, where is in Quran (or even in hadith) any revelation stating that smoking is specifically prohibited?

Regards
Optimist
: Re: Who Determines What is Absurd?
: Bassam Zawadi May 11, 2013, 10:05:50 AM
but we have the ability of understanding which Allah may endow a person with, so that he may understand the Qur'an". 

That's not a good English translation. If you know Arabic you would know that this is not a good translation of the Arabic:

 أَوْ فَهْمٌ أُعْطِيَهُ رَجُلٌ مُسْلِمٌ، أَوْ مَا فِي هَذِهِ الصَّحِيفَةِ‏.‏

The suitable Arabic translation would be:

or the power of understanding which has been bestowed (by Allah) upon a Muslim or what is (written) in this sheet of paper (with me).'

Seeing that this is the answer to the question "Have you got any book?'" then it becomes clear that it is not only the Qur'an.

Can you tell me where is that written paper or the contents of the written paper mentioned by Ali available in the world if it was actually a divine revelation?  Ali would be contradicting his initial comment if the contents of the paper available with him were in fact divine revelation.   And also even assuming what is written in the written paper were divine revelation,  based on the hadith it would mean that it was only what were written on the paper that were divine revelations outside Quran.  THINK.

Ali already said the contents (i.e. diyyah, ransom for captives, etc.) and we already know their rulings from other traditions.

There was no need for that document if everything was laid out in the Qur'an. That's the point.... Ali didn't only say "Qur'an" and stay quiet.

because the Quran was the only source of religious guidance for all muslims lived at that time.

There is no historical evidence to show that.

As a leader of the community, as a ruler, the prophet may have prohibited many bad practices, like Mut'a, prevailed in the soceity based on general directives contained in the Quran.  It has nothing to do a revelation outside Quran.

And the donkey meat?

How about this tradition from Ali:

Narrated `Ali:
I heard the Prophet saying, "Mary, the daughter of `Imran, was the best among the women (of the world of her time) and Khadija is the best amongst the women. (of this nation). (Bukhari, Book 60, Hadith 103)

How would they know that Khadijah is the best amongst women in this nation in the sight of Allah without revelation in the Qur'an?

Musnad Ahmad narrates 804 narrations from Ali with many of them being authentic. I doubt you will accept if I show you ones that show that he didn't believe in Qur'an Onlyism.

Again, what's the point of your argument. You don't trust in the hadith system. So why are you trying to prove that Ali is on your side by appealing to the hadith? I don't think there is a need to proceed without first clarifying that point.
: Re: Who Determines What is Absurd?
: optimist May 11, 2013, 11:09:52 AM
There was no need for that document if everything was laid out in the Qur'an. That's the point.... Ali didn't only say "Qur'an" and stay quiet
Salam,

Everything was laid out in the Quran does not mean you will find traffic rules in Quran.   The divine revelation is not meant to teach you all the caluses and sub clauses of  different laws and principles.  It is the duty of an Islamic Republic to legislate the clauses and sub-clauses of Qur'an's basic Shari'at laws or principles, according to the social, cultural and geo-political conditions of the time, by mutual consultation. It is precisely because of this, the Messenger was commanded to consult his companions and followers (Qur'an 3:159 & 42:38).   The mechanisms required for a government in the Seventh Century are very different indeed from those required today although the principles are the same. God left the detail to be filled in, and changed, by each generation as conditions may dictate provided always that the principle of 'mutual consultation' laid down by God in the Qur'an is observed.  For instance, a 2.5% zakat tax may be sufficient to meet the demand and the needs of the people during seventh century Arabia, which may not be sufficent to meet the need for an islamic govenment in the present times or in the future.  Hence percentage of Zakat is not mentioned in the Quran does not mean Quran is incomplete.  It is not required.  It is not the intention and plan of Allah to make people work like robots.  They have to use their intelligence and try to find solutions for their problems.  However they shall get all necessary and needed guidelines from Quran. 

By the way, in the company where I work one idiot destroyed a European closet saying that it is against 'Sunnah' of the prophet.  It seems this poor fellow thinks divine revelation means he should be taught even how to defecate!

Again, what's the point of your argument. You don't trust in the hadith system. So why are you trying to prove that Ali is on your side by appealing to the hadith? I don't think there is a need to proceed without first clarifying that point.

According to you since it is an authentic collection from Bukhari, the fact mentioned in it should be true. I quoted this hadith not to support my claim but to disprove your claim that ahaadith are divine revelation.     I do not need to rely on this hadith from Ali to reject the claim that ahaadith are based on any divine revelation. 

Narrated `Ali:
I heard the Prophet saying, "Mary, the daughter of `Imran, was the best among the women (of the world of her time) and Khadija is the best amongst the women. (of this nation). (Bukhari, Book 60, Hadith 103)

How would they know that Khadijah is the best amongst women in this nation in the sight of Allah without revelation in the Qur'an?

Excuse me.  Can you first remove all the comments that are put in backets first?. What is provided in brackets are either insertion by compiler himself or the translator.  Do you have a claim that these insertions are also divine revelation? 

The Quran is very clear in 3:42, "'Behold!' the Angel said, 'God has chosen you, and purified you, and chosen you above the women of all nations".   Who gave the permission to the hadith compiler to put in bracket a contradictory statement to say Mary was chosen  as  the best among the women (of the world of her time)?     I completely reject the hadith altogether and therefore I do not need to make any comment.  The hadith does not even merit an analysis and should be thrown into the dustbin.  You must feel ashamed to uphold these garbages as divine revelations.

Regards,
Optimist



: Re: Who Determines What is Absurd?
: Bassam Zawadi May 11, 2013, 12:31:15 PM
Seeing you reject the narration from Ali, that means that you have failed in your mission to use Ali from our sources to side with you. It appears that you have only cherry picked the narrations you like (not worthy of my time).

And that hadith doesn't contradict the Qur'anic verse, however it's not related to this thread. If you want to open a new thread, I will answer your concern.

As for the donkey meat, the narration used the word "haram" and not merely "legally forbid". Again, you failed in your attempt to appeal to Ali from our sources.


Thanks and kind regards,

Bassam
: Re: Who Determines What is Absurd?
: optimist May 11, 2013, 01:02:24 PM
Seeing you reject the narration from Ali, that means that you have failed in your mission to use Ali from our sources to side with you. It appears that you have only cherry picked the narrations you like (not worthy of my time).
Salam,

Brother Bassam, I am telling you again; I quoted that hadith not to support my claim that ahaadith are not divine revelations, but to disprove your claim that ahaadith are divine revelation (from your own source and the truthfulness of the hadith you confirm).   


And that hadith doesn't contradict the Qur'anic verse, however it's not related to this thread. If you want to open a new thread, I will answer your concern.


You are totally blind if you can not find contradiction between Quranic statement regarding Mary as "the women of all nations"   and hadith statement regarding Mary as "of the world of  her time".  I do not need to open another thread to ask this silly question.   Even a child with simple common sense can understand the contradiction here.

As for the donkey meat, the narration used the word "haram" and not merely "legally forbid". Again, you failed in your attempt to appeal to Ali from our sources.


Your question, based on the premise, " if Ali were truly a Qur'an Only Muslim like yourself. would he have said......" can only prove contradictions between different hadiths.   Again I am telling you I quoted hadith to disprove your claim of ahaadith being divine revelation from your own source.   You will find it difficult to explain the hadith among your own audience.  The hadith quoted from Ali was plain and clear.  The answer given by Ali was NO.   It is your problem to explain the contradiction.  As for me, you have miserably failed to give a clear explanation.  I hope all open minded readers here will agree with me.

Also you should note, rejection of ahaadith as a source for religious guidance DOES NOT MEAN each and every hadith collected by Bukhari and Muslim (or anyone) are fabrications.  Some partial truthful reports may have been preserved in hadith collections (I am not implying such reports should be considered as a source of religious guidance in Islam).  As far as religious guidance is concerned, it should be only the Quran.   

Regards,
Optimist
: Re: Who Determines What is Absurd?
: Bassam Zawadi May 11, 2013, 01:08:05 PM
Yes I know you cited Ali against me, but the point remains that you only cherry picked the narration, which you thought would help you instead of looking at all the narrations from Ali, which would have clarified the matter. This is as wrong as one citing one verse from the Qur'an without letting the others clarify the whole ordeal.

As for Mary... the Qur'an says "All nations". That's all. It doesn't say "All nations, which came before, which exist now and which will come in the future".

The hadith clarifies the true meaning. No contradiction.


Thanks,

Bassam
: Re: Who Determines What is Absurd?
: optimist May 11, 2013, 01:56:24 PM
As for Mary... the Qur'an says "All nations". That's all. It doesn't say "All nations, which came before, which exist now and which will come in the future".

The hadith clarifies the true meaning. No contradiction.
Salam,

:)
I thought you will argue that Mary's status limitting to "the world of  her time" is something Hadith compiler kept it in bracket, which is not the original words of the messenger (a fact as per the narration). 

Anyhow, thank you for your clarification as per your understanding for the Quranic reference of Mary as "the women of all nations" to mean only "the women of her time"...!!!  It will be highly appreciated if you can further clarify to me the following points, if you know the information.

(1) When it is said in the hadith you quoted, "Khadija is the best amongst the women (of this nation)"  whether this status of Khadija was confined to the period of her time only or it is something applicable to all future generarions till the end of the world.

(2) Do you think, the preferred status of Mary being "the women of all nations" was cut off by the birth of Khadija or this status was taken away immediately after Mary's death.  Since the Quran used a vague and ambiguous words (according to you) as  "women of all nations", the question is important.   It would be good if you can point out any other further clarifying hadiths?

Thanks, kind regards
Optimist
: Re: Who Determines What is Absurd?
: Bassam Zawadi May 11, 2013, 02:21:57 PM
I thought you will argue that Mary's status limitting to "the world of  her time" is something Hadith compiler kept it in bracket, which is not the original words of the messenger (a fact as per the narration). 

The Arabic of the hadeeth says:

خَيْرُ نِسَائِهَا مَرْيَمُ ابْنَةُ عِمْرَانَ، وَخَيْرُ نِسَائِهَا خَدِيجَةُ ‏"‏‏.‏

The best of her women is Maryam son of Imran and the best of her women is Khadija.

So it's quite clear.

That's all it says, I won't dive deeper.


Anyways...

- You were proven wrong that the hadith clearly contradicts the Qur'an. (I didn't see your counter response).

- You cherry picked the narration of Ali that you liked. That is wrong methodology. I see your silence is admission that you were wrong in doing so.

- You were wrong about the "only being in brackets thing". You should have consulted the Arabic first instead of focusing wholly on the English translation.


Thanks,

Bassam
: Re: Who Determines What is Absurd?
: Truth Seeker May 11, 2013, 02:30:07 PM
Salaam Bassam,

You are asking what objective should we use to determine what is absurd or not. If you believe, after using your reason and intellect that the Quran is in fact the word of God then you will obviously believe the contents in their entirety.

You point out the miracles in the Quran and make a correlation with the ahadeeth which also contain stories of miracles. This does not mean that the two have equal status.

The Quran is God ordained, whereas the Ahadeeth is man made. The former is infallable and the latter is full of contradictions and ludicrous stories. The Quran is vouchsafed by God and not the Ahadeeth.

You said to Optomist:

I just want to bring to your attention that it's wrong to cherry pick this hadeeth and ignore the other narrations containing 'Ali. For example, if Ali were truly a Qur'an Only Muslim like yourself would he have said...
and

I agree with you..... we should first find out God's true word and then determine what is absurd based on that.

We cannot in our quest for truth reject something by claiming it's absurd.

This is why the argument "this hadeeth is for sure not from God because it's absurd" isn't a convincing argument to the traditionalist.


So are you saying that you personally do not cherry pick or only when you are judging a hadeeth against the Quran. Is that the criteria that you use to ascertain whether a hadith is correct or not ?

The problem is that the collectors of Ahadith have so many outrageous and nonsensical narrations that they believe to be 'sahih' in their collections. Are you willing to stand up and say that in this instance they are wrong as their narration is contradicting the Quran ?
: Re: Who Determines What is Absurd?
: optimist May 11, 2013, 02:35:36 PM
- You were wrong about the "only being in brackets thing". You should have consulted the Arabic first instead of focusing wholly on the English translation.

Excuse me!  :o :o

Who posted the hadith initially, me or you????  It was you who posted the hadith putting things in brackets and misrepresenting facts and now you are blaming me!!!!  It is not fair.  I will have to check and I will come back later.  It is a shame!  I quote what you posted in post no.16.

Narrated `Ali: I heard the Prophet saying, "Mary, the daughter of `Imran, was the best among the women (of the world of her time) and Khadija is the best amongst the women. (of this nation). (Bukhari, Book 60, Hadith 103)

Regards
Optimist
: Re: Who Determines What is Absurd?
: optimist May 11, 2013, 04:16:27 PM
The Arabic of the hadeeth says:

خَيْرُ نِسَائِهَا مَرْيَمُ ابْنَةُ عِمْرَانَ، وَخَيْرُ نِسَائِهَا خَدِيجَةُ ‏"‏‏.‏

The best of her women is Maryam son of Imran and the best of her women is Khadija.

So it's quite clear.

That's all it says, I won't dive deeper.
Salam,

Well, I checked.  It is better you don't dive deeper, because you will need another one or two hadiths to explain the hadith.  Poor translators made a mess about it and they made you to ask me a question, "how we know that Khadijah is the best amongst women in this nation in the sight of Allah without revelation in the Qur'an?".   Ha ha.  I know you don't want to pursue the question anymore.   

http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=55&translator=1&start=0&number=641

By the way,  I was checking different translations and the above hadith is No.642 in the above link.  Please advise these people to correct the translation since according to you hadith is a divine revelation.  Anyhow, I accidently noticed the previous hadith No.641 and let me quote the hadith for all the readers to see the corruption that crept into authentic hadith collection.  (don't accuse me of cherry picking). 

Narrated Said bin Al-Musaiyab: Abu Huraira said, "I heard Allah's Apostle saying, 'There is none born among the off-spring of Adam, but Satan touches it. A child therefore, cries loudly at the time of birth because of the touch of Satan, except Mary and her child." Then Abu Huraira recited: "And I seek refuge with You for her and for her offspring from the outcast Satan" (3.36)   

Do you THINK this is divine revelation from ALLAH?  You ask any medical student and they will tell you why new born cry.  It seems some ignorant idots, after the death of the prophet, made a research on this phenomenon about why new born cry and to authenticate their ‘finding’ they attributed this lie to the prophet!!  And for you this is divine revelation!  :o 

Focusing on the subject of discussion let me tell you that it is shame for you if you want to compare these kinds of ahaadith with the things mentioned in the Quran.   I look forward to your comments including if the translators made any error in their translation.

Regards,
Optimist

PS: The hadith states "except Mary and her child".  I smell a Christian conspiracy here. ;)
: Re: Who Determines What is Absurd?
: Bassam Zawadi May 11, 2013, 04:46:40 PM
Optimist you are digressing from the topic.

I already addressed that hadith here http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/rebuttal_to_sam_shamoun_s_article__jesus__superiority_revisited_

Please start new threads for new topics. It's a kind request.

Thanks,

Bassam
: Re: Who Determines What is Absurd?
: optimist May 11, 2013, 07:56:40 PM
Dear brother Bassam,

Assalamu alaikum.

I shall ensure to make another thread if I need to make comments for any other hadiths.  Kindly bear with me for this hadith.  The discussion is already ongoing, however, if you insist for another thread I have no problem.  Please let me know.

Well, I read your rebuttal, but the discussion is focused on countering Shamoun’s claim of superiority of Jesus over prophet Muhamed.   I am not at all focused on this point.  My questions are;

1. Do you think there is no medical reason for why the new borns cry?   According to medical science a new born baby has to cry otherwise brain will not get oxygen immediately and this can bring serious complications later.   When the baby is in the womb it doesn’t breath through the nose but by umbilical cord, so when it comes out there is no oxygen going in through the nose since the baby doesn’t know how to breath so the nurse will hit their tiny buttocks and they will respond to the pain will a yell which automatically opens the nose and the lungs start pumping oxygen.  In some cases, babies born at home, into a quiet, warm environment (especially during water birth) sometimes do not cry and no complications may happen in those circumstances.  Babies need to be monitored only under such circumstances.   There is pure science involved for babies crying.  It is not Satan’s touch that makes them cry.  Kindly let me know your views and experience on this point.

2. There are some babies that do not cry at the time of birth.   Will they come under the category of Mary and Jesus?

3. Why Mary and Jesus alone were exempted from Satan’s touching and (most probably did not cry)?   Please note, I am not concerned about whether they were saved from Satan’s influence later on - a point you made in your rebuttal.

4. Don’t you think this hadith contradicts another ahaadith reported by both Bukhari and Muslim wherein the prophet said that each and every child is born in a state of Fitrah?

5. You quoted a hadith from Volume 1, Book 4, Number 143: Narrated Ibn 'Abbas, in which prophet said “If anyone of you on having sexual relations with his wife said 'In the name of Allah. O Allah! Protect us from Satan and also protect what you bestow upon us (i.e. the coming offspring) from Satan, and if it is destined that they should have a child then, Satan will never be able to harm that offspring."  My question is this:  Are you saying that babies born in the above circumstances won’t cry??

This is all for now.  I expect from you some brief comments for my points at your convenience.

Thanks, regards
Optimist