QM Forum
Islamic Secondary Sources => Discussions => Topic started by: Reader Comments on May 26, 2013, 02:32:29 PM
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Comment by Arif Ali Vakil on Facebook
Salam Alaykum Wa rahmatullah brother Joseph Islam.
Voraciously been browsing your website quransmessage.com.I complment you on your efforts in ascertaining the truth. In The light and fot the sake of the Holy Quranic verse 33:33,5:55 and 42:23 '....say I do not ask you for any reward for it (for the toils of messengership) but, love of my near relatives", I request you to please go through http://www.al-islam.org/brief-history-of-fourteen-infallibles/5.htm Please study\ compare\add the timeline of the 14 infallibles to the timeline in your website and\or let me have your valued opinion on the same.I believe that there is an unbroken chain of traditions from the Holy Prophet (S) through his infallible progeny reaching mankind even today.It cannot be remotely imagined that God has created us and left us to ourselves in seeking the truth without a thorough guidance.This would defeat His own purpose of creating us.We certainly cannot rule out the possibility of authentic traditions reaching us even if they were compiled at a later stage. "And the Pleasure of Allah (swt) is the greatest bliss". Towards fulfilling the goal of our creation !!! .
Regards, Arif Ali Vakil
http://www.al-islam.org/brief-history-of-fourteen-infallibles/5.htm
www.al-islam.org
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Dear brother Arif Ali Vakil
As-salam alaykum
I understand from what you have said and shared that you align your views with the Shi'i perspective. (Please correct me if I am wrong).
May I kindly and respectfully suggest that we therefore put aside any emotional and 'philosophical arguments' and address this matter from a Quran's perspective.
After all, the Quran is God's final word, it describes itself as:
- A Clear Guidance (Huda)
- Clear Proof (Burhan)
- Explained in Detail (Fussilat)
- Clear Explanation of All Things (Tibiana Lekulli Shayin)
- The Ultimate Scale - Balance (Mizaan)
- Discernment Between Truth and Falsehood (Furqan)
- Evidence Absolutely Clear (Bayyina)
Therefore, I would respectfully ask you two simple questions in light of the articles I share below:
The doctrine of Imamate from a Shi'a perspective is a fundamental core belief of the Shi'a (usul-e-din). It asserts that apart from the Prophets and Messengers of God, there exist 12 divinely appointed men called 'Imams' who originate from the direct lineage of the Prophet's daughter Fatima and cousin / son-in-law Ali ibn Abi Talib (Ali).
QUESTION ONE: Where is the fundamental doctrine of 'Imamate' found in the Quran? Please can you provide clear, unequivocal verses from the Quran without resorting to philosophical arguments. Please also remember that an 'usul' of a religion must be supported by explicit statements from the Quran.
QUESTION TWO: How does the 'Imam' who is in occultation lead the Shia today?
It is my view that Shi’a doctrine finds no support in the Quran. In fact, verses of the Quran completely negate such a doctrine. Shi'a beliefs seem to be the result of a theology which has been formulated after the alleged occultation of the last imam and an attempt to understand the absence of a physical spiritual guide from the progeny of Imam Ali.
Shi’a theology is built on traditions which are of just as questionable authenticity (if not more) as are Sunni sources.
Neither sources find any authority from the Quran.
Finally, you have pasted the above comments on a total of three separate threads on my Facebook page and private messaged me the same comments. May I respectfully suggest that you only part with your comments once which should suffice for both me and the readers.
I look forward to your response to my two basic questions.
REFERENCES
[1] IMAMATE - A SHI'A DOCTRINE
http://quransmessage.com/articles/imammat%20FM3.htm
[2] SHI'A DOCTRINE AND LITERARY SOURCES - A BRIEF SURVEY
http://quransmessage.com/articles/shia%20FM3.htm
[3] THE EARLIEST HISTORICAL SOURCES OF THE INCIDENT OF KARBALA
http://quransmessage.com/articles/karbala%20historicity%20FM3.htm
[4] APPEAL TO RIGHTEOUSNESS BASED ON LINEAGE, RELATIONSHIP, COMPANIONSHIP AND PROXIMITY
http://quransmessage.com/articles/righteousness%20based%20on%20lineage%20FM3.htm
[5] AbdolKarim Soroush - The Evolution of Shi'ism and its Imperatives
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_9cM6yEm_U&feature=player_embedded
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Response by: Arif Ali Vakil
Wa aale qum Salam Brother Joseph Islam.
Please reflect on the subject matter in the below mentioned links as an attempt by me to answer your first question regarding Imamate. A response to your second question follows after the first one is dealt with conclusively. I absolutely disagree with your view when you say that Quote "It is my view that Shi’a doctrine finds no support in the Quran. In fact, verses of the Quran completely negate such a doctrine. Shi'a beliefs seem to be the result of a theology which has been formulated after the alleged occultation of the last imam and an attempt to understand the absence of a physical spiritual guide from the progeny of Imam Ali.Shi’a theology is built on traditions which are of just as questionable authenticity (if not more) as are Sunni sources" UnQuote, as in my humble view it is based on a premise which is not in keeping with a rational spirit of inquiry, as will become subsequently apparent.
1) http://www.najaf.org/english/book/19/30.htm
2) http://www.najaf.org/english/book/19/31.htm
3) http://www.najaf.org/english/book/19/32.htm
4) http://www.najaf.org/english/book/19/33.htm
5) http://www.najaf.org/english/book/19/34.htm
6) http://www.najaf.org/english/book/19/35.htm
7) http://www.najaf.org/english/book/19/36.htm
8 http://www.najaf.org/english/book/19/37.htm
I look forward to this interaction culminating in ascertaining the TRUTH regarding the Divine injunction of Imamate. " And the pleasure of Allah (swt) is the greatest bliss".
Regards
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Dear Arif Ali Vakil.
With respect, you have not provided me one explicit verse of the Quran which supports the doctrine of the Shi'a.
I am looking for a verse which clearly informs believers that there are 12 divinely appointed infallible men called 'Imams' who will guide the Ummah after the death of the prophet Prophet.
Please can you not provide inferences or isolated verses. Please can I remind you with respect that this is a widely read Facebook page and your responses will be read by many readers.
This is an important matter you have raised, therefore I await your CLEAR evidence of the verses. Quranic references will suffice.
May peace be with you.
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Response by: Arif Ali Vakil
Brother as to your second question regarding the Benefits an how the Holy Imam Mahdi (atfs) leads the Shias during the period of occultation pls reflect on the contects in the following explanation. The Benefits of Occultation of Imam Mahdi A.S
part 1
Engineer Madani: If the Imam is the leader of the people he should be present among them. What is the benefit of having an Imam who lives an invisible life? What is the use of having an Imam who lives in the state of occultation for centuries without fulfilling any of the functions that he normally undertakes: such as propagating religion, solving the problems of society, responding to the attacks of his opponents, commanding the good and forbidding the evil, helping the poor and redressing the wrongs committed against the downtrodden, upholding the ordinances of God by instituting proper penalties and explaining the lawful and the unlawful to the people, and so on.
Mr. Hoshyar: The people are surely deprived of the benefits that you have enumerated during the occultation. However, the benefits of the Imam's presence are not limited to these. In fact, there are other benefits that are available during the occultation. The following two are among those many other benefits that you have not enumerated:
First, in accord with all that we have said previously and the proofs that were derived from the writings of Muslim scholars, including the hadith-reports that spoke about the necessity of the Imamate, the existence of the Imam as a perfect and unique embodiment of humanity serves as a link between the material and the spiritual world. If the Imam is absent the human species will be extinct. If there is no Imam then God cannot be known or worshipped perfectly. Without the Imam the link between the material and the spiritual become severed. The heart of the Imam is like the source of electricity that distributes light to numerous lamps. The illumination and energization of the hidden universe first mirrors on the heart of the Imam and then from there it reflects on the hearts of humankind. The Imam is the heart of the created universe and the leader and guide of humankind. It is evident that his presence and absence have an impact upon these actualities. After all these, can one ask what benefit accrues from the invisible existence of the Imam? I think that you are raising this objection on behalf of someone else who does not have a real understanding of the meaning of wilayat and the Imamate and who does not see the Imam as more than a legal expert and an administrator of justice, whereas the responsibilities of the wilayat and the Imamate are much more than these external functions.
In a long tradition reported from Imam Sadiq it is related that Imam Sajjad said:
We are the leaders of the Muslims, God's proofs for His creatures, masters of the believers, guides for the godfearing, and those invested with discretionary authority over the affairs of Muslims. We are the security for the dwellers of the earth, just as the stars are the security of the dwellers of the heavens. It is because of us that the heavens descend on the earth whenever God permits. It is because of us that the rain descends and blessings of earth come out of it. If we had not been on earth its dwellers would have been consumed in it.
He then went on to say:
From the day God created Adam until today He has not left the earth without a competent authority (=proof=hujjat). But this authority is sometimes manifest and well known; at other times he is in occultation and in concealment. The earth will not be void of such an authority until the Day of Judgement. If there is no Imam, God will not be worshipped.
Sulayman, the narrator, asked Imam Sadiq: "How can people benefit from the existence of an Imam who is in occultation?" The Imam said: "In the same way as they benefit from the sun behind the clouds."
In this and other traditions of this kind the existence of the twelfth Imam and the benefit derived from him are compared to the benefit derived from the sun hidden behind the clouds. To elaborate on this imagery let us remind ourselves of the way natural science explains the phenomenon. It is established in natural science and in astronomy that the sun is the center of our solar system. The laws of gravity protect the earth from falling into an abyss, and permit the earth to revolve around the sun, generating the distinction between day and night and different seasons according to its position in relation to the sun. The thermal energy produced by the sun is the source of life on earth and its light illuminates the otherwise dark earth. This benefit accrues to the earth regardless of the fact of whether the sun is shining directly or from behind the clouds. In other words, all its functions (illumination, providing energy, growth, etc.) are intact even when it shines from behind the clouds. In fact, whether it is from behind the dark clouds or at night when we think the sun is not present, we are still recipients of the sun's thermal energy and all other benefits that are critical for our survival on earth.
Source: Al-Imam Al-Mahdi- by: Ibrahim Amini p. 154-161 Awaiting yr response to the answers given to ye queries. Regards. And the pleasure of Allah (swt ) is the greatest bliss.
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Dear brother Arif Ali Vakil,
Please can you first provide clear evidence from the Quran for the first question. Please remember that as you appear to claim the authenticity of the Shi'a doctrine, the burden of proof is for you to prove it from the Quran.
[1] BURDEN OF PROOF - PROPHET ABRAHAM'S (pbuh) ARGUMENT
http://quransmessage.com/articles/burdenofproof%20FM3.htm
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Response by: Arif Ali Vakil
Brother,speaking about evidence and academic vigour,will you please tell me on the premise set by you, how many rakats in your salah (five obligatory prayers) will you offer considering that the same finds no mention in the Holy Quran. Will you on the same grounds stop offering salah which is the meraj of a believer? One has no choice but to accept the glaring fact that if Allah's pleasure has to be obtained and the purpose of creation fulfilled than one has to live by the Divine Book i.e "The Holy Quran".which can be best explained by divinely appointed people i.e The Holy Prophet (pbuh) & his holy progeny (pbut).Please refer Holy Quran 33:33,verse 42:23,verse 3:61 regarding the ahlulbayt (pbut) from THE HOLY QURAN which clearly issue Allah's directives and pleasure. With Regards,Arif Ali
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Dear brother Arif,
May peace be with you.
With respect, you have responded with an extremely poor response. To answer a question with a question is not a befitting response in a serious academic discussion.
I feel my premise to request evidence from the Quran is sound. This is what the Quran expects us to do.
I sense that as you know you have not been and will not be able to provide clear evidence, you have resorted to challenge the premise by asking an irrelevant question about how many rakats I would read in my salat as a red herring.
In fact, your question weakens your argument tremendously.
The need for prayer which the Shi'a accept as a 'Furoo-e-din' (subsidiary) is mentioned numerous times in the Quran. Yet a fundamental belief and doctrine of religion (usul) that the Shi’a accept i.e. that 12 Divinely appointed infallible men called 'Imams' who will guide the Ummah after the death of the prophet is not even mentioned once.
With respect, use of isolated verses out of context do not provide clear, unequivocal proof for a fundamental doctrine.
Belief in God, the Last Day, beliefs in the prophets, messengers, Divine scriptures, angels etc are all fundamental beliefs found in the Quran.
Where are the 12 Divinely appointed infallible imams?
With respect, the Shi'a position on this matter could not be more precarious.
Anyway, what if I tell you that the Quran has no intention to define the number of rakats and I read as many rakats as I like. Then what will you say? What if I ask you where is the support in the Quran for the number of rakats that you read? With respect, you will have no proof.
Regardless, with respect and humility, I have dealt with these questions of prayer comprehensively on my website from a Quran's perspective. I share the links below for your academic perusal.
With respect, please can we refocus on the discussion at hand and I once again ask you:
Can you provide me clear evidence from the Quran for the support of 12 Divinely appointed infallible men called 'Imams' who will guide the Ummah after the death of the prophet. It is a simple request.
The verses you have kindly shared do not provide explicit, unequivocal proof for the above. Therefore hitherto you have not provided me the evidence requested and have instead attempted to challenge the premise without warrant.
Please can you continue this discussion on the thread as requested and not on Facebook.
Regards,
Joseph.
REFERENCES
[1] PRAYER
http://quransmessage.com/articles/prayer%20FM3.htm
[2] HOW CAN WE LEARN PRAYER IF WE DON'T HAVE HADITH TO TEACH US?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/prayer%20without%20hadith%20FM3.htm
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Response by: Arif Ali Vakil
Salam Alaykum brother.
At the expense of repetition let me provide the relevant verses of the Holy Quran to enable you to better comprehend the importance of following Ahlulbayt (pbut) as per the clear directives of Allah (swt). Please refer Holy Quran 33:33,verse 42:23,verse 3:61.
It is an an undisputed fact of history acknowledged by all Muslims alike that the Seal of the Prophets,Muhammad (saws) at the end of his mission on earth addressed his companions in the following words : I am leaving among you two precious things: The Book of Allah and my progeny my Household.As long as adhere to them you will never go astray after me. These (two) will never part with each other until they return to me at the pool of" kauther" in Paradise". The Prophets Household or as the Holy Quran describes them,the AHLULBAYT,are the excellent guides and firmament of Islam. Models par excellence; they personified the light of the Quran and the teachings of the Messenger of Allah in their lives.They imbibed from Muhammad's (S) knowledge,grew up in his House and followed in his footsteps,calling people to the Book of Allah (swt) and urging them to hold fast to the traditions set by the final Messenger to mankind.they areas the traditions say; the companions of the Quran and never part from it, because they embody all the concepts,guidelines and values brought to us by the Quran.
The Holy Quran itself vouches for them in 33:33 '........Allah only desires to keep away uncleanness from you People of the House and make you pure as pure can be". Whoever studies the life of the Ahlulbayt (pbut) will at once recognize the pivotal role they played and the great task they shouldered in shaping the destiny of Islam. they actively endeavored to keep the Shariah (divine laws) pure and strived to preserve the Islamic ideology IN ITS ORIGINAL FORM. They even sacrificed their lives in order to safeguard these high principles and rendered them practical for the Muslim nation. The glorious lives of the Ahlulbayt have always been a source of inspiration to the Muslims in every era and place,interacting with their consciousness,enriching their progress and upholding their Islamic heritage.
Sincere Muslims follow the the teachings of MUHAMMAD (s) & HIS AHLULBAYT (PBUT) IN ALL MATTERS (whether they be realted to Salah,Hajj,Roza,Zakat, Khums) AS PER THE COMMANDMENTS OF NONE OTHER THAN ALLAH (SWT). When sincere Muslims lives by the teachings of The Holy Prophet (S) & his holy progeny they will not remain in darkness and make the mistake of following their own unwarranted opinions regarding important injunctions like the Salahand how to perform it.
As for your remark and I quote you "Anyway, what if I tell you that the Quran has no intention to define the number of rakats and I read as many rakats as I like. Then what will you say? What if I ask you where is the support in the Quran for the number of rakats that you read? With respect, you will have no proof".
My answer is that rational Muslims will perform not only offer their salah but live their whole life based on the teachings of the Holy Prophet (S) & his ahlulbayt ,as per the commandments of Allah(swt). If you by your own confession choose to offer the salah according to your own whim and fancy its your shortcoming not God's, because you are by your free will opting Not to obey Allah (swt), in His repeated clear directives of emulating the Prophet (saws).
Please refer to my earlier posts which conclusively deals with your queries on Imamate. Your repeated requests leads me to believe that you have not read the earlier posts & links provided by me.The same can be provided by me if you so require.
The Shia claim of Imamate is sanctioned by Allah (swt),as they are divinely appointed. When you even cannot offer your salah correctly without referring to the traditions of the Prophet (saws),how are you going to implement divine injunctions and comprehend the other aspects of religion without referring the same to the Holy Prophet (saws).
Regards (Unable to post the same on yr forum,you may include the same in continuation of our discussion)
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Dear brother Arif,
May peace be with you.
You are simply relying on late, fallible historical sources to argue your point. This is called ‘circular reasoning’.
You are then utilising theology ‘derived’ from these late, fallible sources to read your Shi’a doctrine into the Quran by using isolated verses out of context. With respect, this is unacceptable.
None of the verses you have quoted provide any information whatsoever about 12 Divinely appointed imams. A fundamental belief of the Shi'a has absolutely no support from the Quran. You are simply reading ‘doctrine’ into the verses without warrant.
Your whole theology is based on secondary sources which with respect, have no authority from the Quran.
Therefore, once the unauthorised sources are removed from your argumentations, I have concluded that you have no proof for the Shi'a doctrine.
I think we have duly reached the end of our discussion as I submit that you have not, nor can you provide any evidence from the Quran for the support of your position and a fundamental belief of the Shi'a that 12 Divinely appointed Imams will guide mankind.
Please kindly accept this message as my last to you on this matter.
With respect and regards,
Joseph
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Dear brother Ali,
May I also with respect, strongly suggest that you research the nature of the 'historical sources' that you have duly appealed to. These are very late, questionable sources.
In my opinion, to accept ‘history’ blindly or to rely blindly on what the majority of a group has told one to believe is a very irrational approach. One must study the sources for themselves whether Shi’a, Sunni or of any other theological perspective.
Furthermore, there is a difference between Hadith and Sunnah which I felt was not clear in your posts.
It is a very serious matter (and thus an objective of contention) that a fundamental belief (usul) of the Shi'a has no unequivocal support from the Quran.
Therefore, I would humbly like to share some relevant articles with you which may give you a better perspective of the scope of my view. I shared some of them before but may be you have not had a chance to read them as yet.
Please do kindly read them.
Finally, please find a very good talk by a Shi'a brother, AbdolKarim Soroush.
The Evolution of Shi'ism and its Imperatives
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_9cM6yEm_U&feature=player_embedded
May peace be with you always
Regards,
Joseph.
REFERENCES
[1] IMAMATE - A SHI'A DOCTRINE
http://quransmessage.com/articles/imammat%20FM3.htm
[2] SHI'A DOCTRINE AND LITERARY SOURCES - A BRIEF SURVEY
http://quransmessage.com/articles/shia%20FM3.htm
[3] THE EARLIEST HISTORICAL SOURCES OF THE INCIDENT OF KARBALA
http://quransmessage.com/articles/karbala%20historicity%20FM3.htm
[4] APPEAL TO RIGHTEOUSNESS BASED ON LINEAGE, RELATIONSHIP, COMPANIONSHIP AND PROXIMITY
http://quransmessage.com/articles/righteousness%20based%20on%20lineage%20FM3.htm
[5] THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HADITH AND SUNNA
http://www.quransmessage.com/articles/hadith%20and%20sunna%20FM3.htm
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Dear Sir,
Unfortunately the Arabs mostly invented terms from Quran without Authority to lend meaning without realising the truth and one such as Imamate - who is just 'leader' who can lead them even to Hell as in 28:41 . The so called 'spiritual leaders' leading us will be cursed by so called followers as in 33:67 and will ask them double punishment for misleading us 33:68 . Allah ordains believers not to erect/elevate anyone amongst us as in 3:64. Even prophets or angles will advise their followers not to worship them 3:79-80. Instead follow common terms to serve Allah by righteous deeds which is surety to Heaven. Also argue on form of salaat, its numbers and other rituals are implied in Quran but not explicitly ordained, hence no point quoting huge volumes articles. Even Aristotle (384-322 BC) was followed till Renaissance period (1300-1600 A.D.), in philosophy and embedded in Roman Catholic theology and tradition was revised with Galileo scientific truth. Hence either by way of scriptural evidence , both Sunnis and Shias will be cult instead of Deen. Sunnis/Shias/Imamates/Hadiths/Sahabas/Tabeen and others multiples are conjectured names to form religion or cult and not authorized by Quran in perspective of Divine worship to establish Deen.
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Wa Aale qum Salam Wa Rahmatullah brother Joseph. It seems you are adamant not to believe and accept the lofty position Allah (swt) has granted Ahlulbayt (peace be upon them). You seem to find it easy to ignore the Holy Quranic verses 33:33, and 42:23 which Allah (swt) has ordered all Muslims to follow in their quest to attain salvation. As regards Verse 42:23 the Prophet (saws) explicitly told the Muslims,that this verse refers to ahlulbayt that is ALI,FATIMA,HASAN,and HUSAYN and urged them to obey and follow these illustrious personalities after him. All commentators .traditionalists and biographers are unanimous that the Prophet whilst explaining this verse,said that the word "near relatives" as used here refers exclusively to his Ahlulbayt. You furthur even ignore to belittle Allahs verse of Malediction (Mubahila) The Holy Quran 3:61 " But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge,then say :Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your womeand ourselves and your selves,then let us beseech Allah and invoke His curse upon the liars ". This verse points towards an epoch-making event,narrated by all historians and commentators;an event which revealed to the Muslims how near and dear the progeny of the Prophet are to Allah the Exalted. This event which clearly marked out the clear status of Ahlulbayt,is known in the annals of Islamic historians as MUBAHILA .......and you deny it. What a pity that you cannot notice what is so glaringly visible as clear truth from the Holy Quran. (BY the way Ali (a.s),Hasan(a.s)and Husayn (a.s) who accompanied the Holy Prophet (saws) on this Mubahila against the Christians of Najran are the first three divinely appointed Imams). Accept them and inshallah you will accept all 12 Imams. Your comments suggest you have not even remotely understood the truth about the Shias leave aside making absurd conclusions based on your own fallible deductions. Please do not gamble with your hereafter,and this I say with a lot of affection to you my Muslim brother in faith. May Allah (swt) for the love of Muhammad and His Holy progeny guide you towards the truth and illuminate you with his love and obedience. "Obedience to Allah (swt) is better than compassion to the world".
With Regards. Arif Ali Vakil
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Dear brother Ali,
May peace be with you.
Please see my responses to your comments in red.
It seems you are adamant not to believe and accept the lofty position Allah (swt) has granted Ahlulbayt (peace be upon them).
Dear brother, please do not think of this as a personal vendetta. We are both assessing best evidence. This is an academic discussion. If you can provide clear, unequivocal evidence for support of a fundamental Shi'a doctrine from the Quran, I will be more than happy to accept it. Hitherto, I have not seen any such evidence.
You seem to find it easy to ignore the Holy Quranic verses 33:33, and 42:23 which Allah (swt) has ordered all Muslims to follow in their quest to attain salvation.
With respect, I have studied these verses in depth. There is absolutely no mention of 12 Divinely appointed imams in these verses or the mention of specific individuals that you intimate. You are simply reading your theology into these verses. Please try to understand this. Where are the names? Where does it mention 12 Divinely appointed imams? Where does it mention Ali, Fatima or any contemporary of the Prophet?
For example, to restrict only one daughter (Hazrat Fatima) to a venerated group of the Prophet's household as the Shi'a understand it is also a violation of verse 33:59 which clearly makes use of the term 'wa-banatika' in which the noun is clearly a feminine plural i.e. daughters.
Therefore, from a Quran's perspective, all the daughters of the Prophet were part of the 'Prophet's household'.
"O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters..." (33.59 partial)
To assert only one daughter as part of the 'Ahl' of the Prophet is clearly unsupportable by the Quran itself.
As regards Verse 42:23 the Prophet (saws) explicitly told the Muslims,that this verse refers to ahlulbayt that is ALI,FATIMA,HASAN,and HUSAYN and urged them to obey and follow these illustrious personalities after him.
This is the problem dear brother. How do you know Prophet Muhammad actually said this? I'll humbly explain why you think so. You are relying on late, fallible hadith sources to make your claim and the traditions of your forefathers blindly. Some of these sources were not written until many centuries after the death of the Prophet. In a serious academic discussion, you cannot rely on sources which are in dispute.
If you want to rely on 'hadith' as evidence, then this is a separate discussion as then you will need to prove the authority of these sources first like Sunni brother and sisters.
Enough blood has already been shed where Shi'a rely on their sources and Sunni rely on theirs. Often the Quran is forgotten. Please note what the messenger will say on the Day of Judgement.
025:030
"And the messenger will say: O my Lord! Indeed! my own people / community (Arabic: Qawm) took this Quran as a forsaken thing / ignored it / abandoned it (Arabic: Mahjura)"
Once the disputed ‘hadith sources’ that you are relying on is removed from your discussion, there is no way you can understand the verses in the manner that you do. Please understand this point.
All commentators .traditionalists and biographers are unanimous that the Prophet whilst explaining this verse,said...
Once again you are relying on unwarranted, unauthorised, fallible secondary sources and their claims blindly to argue your position. You are then reading the theology from these sources into isolated Quranic verses. Dear brother, please pay careful attention to this.
You furthur even ignore to belittle Allahs verse of Malediction (Mubahila) The Holy Quran 3:61 " But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge,then say :Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your womeand ourselves and your selves,then let us beseech Allah and invoke His curse upon the liars ".
Dear brother, you are once again reading external fallible sources 'into' the Quran, If you read the context of the verses carefully, the matter being discussed is with regards Prophet Jesus. Why are taking verses out of context based on fallible late sources written by men?
.......and you deny it.
No dear brother, I do not deny it. I am studying the verses in context. With respect, you are not. Please study these verses without the lens of fallible hadith sources. God willing, you will see for yourself.
What a pity that you cannot notice what is so glaringly visible as clear truth from the Holy Quran.
I urge you, please study the verses in context. Please do not blindly rely on fallible sources written by men. These sources are not 'truth'. They are keeping a whole 'ummah' (community) blind already. Please let us not continue this blind trend and let us study God's word with earnest like God asks us to do.
Your comments suggest you have not even remotely understood the truth about the Shias leave aside making absurd conclusions based on your own fallible deductions.
I have kindly repeatedly asked you for simple proof from the Quran. You have not provided me any.
Please consider this carefully. You are suggesting that a fundamental doctrine (usul) of the Shi'a that 12 Divinely appointed imams will lead mankind has no explicit support in the Quran. There is not one single verse that confirms this. This is a very serious matter indeed. Please think about this carefully.
Putting trust into sources and beliefs which the Quran does not support is a very grave matter indeed.
Are you really telling me and the respect wider readership that a fundamental 'usul' of the Shi'a doctrine has no explicit, unequivocal support from the Quran? Are you really dear brother?
I hope this helps, God willing.
Joseph.
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Dear Brother Arif,
Please give atleast one verse from Quran in proper context as requested by Brother Joseph that will make me to accept your doctrine. There is no point like Sunni putting Hadith into Quranic verses to give authority. It appears that these contention "like flowery discourses " initiated by enemies of Prophets (6:112) into Arabic/Persian stories , and to carry them like donkey 62:5 with-out sound proof.
Even so called Ahl-Bayt is also referred to Quran in reference to Abraham (11:73) and Moses (28:12) why are we restricting to one family. Ahle-Kitab, Ahle Injil, Ahle-Naar, Ahle-Qura, Ahle Madina, Ahle Yathrab, Ahle-Zikr etc ( community of people ) are widely used and instead AL'E (family/people) is more used pertaining to Ale-Musa, Ale Ibrahim, Ale Firun, Ale Nuh, Ale Harun, Ale Dawood, Ale Imran........... Do you find Ale-Muhammad anywhere? This is where secondary sources on which you base your ideology.
Quran has repeatedly warned not to follow your fathers ( our hadith scholars) as they may be misguided or without any Aql/reason and lead into conjectures.
The so called scholars like Tabari who wrote Histories into 40 volumes and tons of literature copying from similar sources into flowery volumes also inspired by Satan to affirm " Satanic Verses".
Just give one Quranic verse ( confirming Imamate or Ahle-Bayt reference to exclusive Muhammad (pbuh) relatives) to lead your ideology instead putting your ideology into Quranic verse to manipulate for authenticity ? That will not help us.
You are in world of impeccable proof and evidence and no reasonable person will accept conjectures based on previous fallible sources because it was accepted at the time.
It is good to discuss without emotion that will lead us to ONE incontrovertible TRUTH like all the hypothesis in the present world are discussed/reasearched into Scientific discovery.
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Salam Alaykum brothers Joseph and Sahil .
In the name of Allah (swt) the Beneficent the Merciful.
The Holy Quran Verse 33:33 "........ Allah desires to keep away uncleanness from you people of the House (The ahlulbait ) and make you pure as pure can be ".
It is necessary to clear to clear any doubts that may arise in the minds of sincere seekers of truth,that this verse may also incude the wives of the Prophet - as some are bound to misinterpret.. The fact is, IT ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT,as is crystal clear from our above discussion which has proved that it is exclusively addressed to the five persons namely 1) Muhammad 2) Ali 3) Fatima 4) Hasan 5) Husayn (peace be upon all of them),four of whom are males,with the exception of daughter Fatima (S). (By the way Fatima (a.s) was the only surviving daughter of the Holy Prophet (saws)).
***As to mentioning them by name, refer Holy Quran 40:78 "We did aforetime send Apostles before thee there are some whose story we have related to thee,and some whose story we have not related to thee". Are you then going to deny those Prophets sent by Allah whose names are not mentioned in the Quran by your erroneous assumed logical criterion's ??? You may as well dare to reject your salah on grounds that the methodology of its performance is not specified in the Quran and keep circumambulating around the Kaaba for the rest of your life ,on the grounds that though the commandment to circumambulate the Holy Kaaba as a rite of Hajj is commanded, as to the number of times it is not specified in the Holy QURAN ? Brothers you have no choice but to refer matters to the Holy Prophet and those vested with authority for the same.
For a thorough comprehension of the truth and its application all intelligent seekers of truth have to refer to 1)The Holy Quran 2) Traditions from AhlulBait (who are divinely appointed and purified for the job by none other than Allah(swt) himself and 3) Islamic history. You simply cannot affordto ignore any of them.
Moreover it is obvious from the use of the masculine gender in this verse - clear for those acquainted with the Arabic language - the words ankum and yutah-hirakum meaning "from you" and "purify you" used in the Quran are masculine terms and refer to the said persons collectively,the majority of whom are males. If Allah (swt) had addressed the Prophets wives -as some misconstrue- then the Quran,the finest masterpiece of Arabic language would surely have used the feminine gender ankunna and yutah-hirakunna instead of the masculine, because they numbered more. If not the 5 five Holy personalities I have mentioned above, who is Allah (swt) referring to in verse 33:33 and for what purpose ??? I am sure, hopefully, that you will at least agree with me here when I say that Allah (swt) does not do anything without a purpose.
Thus it is evident that this verse draws a clear picture in the minds about the true objectives of the Book of Allah (swt). By emphasizing the purity and INFALLIBLE leadership on the unwavering axis called Ahlul- Bayt, it endeavors to build the edifice of the Muslim society on the solid base of cleanliness and virtue.
Now lets clear your unproven doubts regarding Verse of Mawadda 42:23.
As regards Verse 42:23 the Prophet (saws) explicitly told the Muslims,that this verse refers to Ahlulbayt that is ALI,FATIMA,HASAN,and HUSAYN and urged them to obey and follow these illustrious personalities after him.
As for Holy Quran: 3:61 Again I ask use if it were not these 5 illustrious personalities who stood for Mubahila against the Christians of Najran who else was there and this verse refers to?
All commentators .traditionalists and biographers are unanimous that the Prophet whilst explaining this verse,said that the word "near relatives" as used here refers exclusively to his Ahlulbayt.
What makes you think brothers that the above fact is in dispute ? You are wrong when you say they were written centuries after the Holy Prophet(saws). Perhaps what you are suggesting that they were published later on.Its not the same.
People who remained obedient to Allah (Swt), remained attached to the teachings of Ahlulbayt (pbut) and were never confused in any matter because of the presence of an Imam(A.s) among their midst to guide them in all matters.after the demise of the Holy Prophet (saws).
The Authority given to Ahlulbait (Peace be upon them ) to guide mankind by ALLAH (swt) HIMSELF will hold good not only till doomsday but beyond that.
With warmest Regards,
Your brother in Faith Arif Ali Vakil
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Dear brother Ali,
May peace be with you.
Please see my responses to your comments in red.
The Holy Quran Verse 33:33 "........ Allah desires to keep away uncleanness from you people of the House (The ahlulbait ) and make you pure as pure can be ".
There are no 'exclusive members' (as the Shi'a understand) implied by the brackets in the Quranic Arabic. You have simply introduced them. The people of the house could be all those individuals as part of the Prophet’s household, including the Prophet's many daughters (banatika – plural 33:59). It could also include his many wives and his adopted son, Zayd (33:37).
You have no proof other than reliance on late, unauthorised, fallible Ahadith to 'insert' doctrine into the verses to select ‘exclusive members’. This is unacceptable in a rational academic discourse.
It is necessary to clear to clear any doubts that may arise in the minds of sincere seekers of truth
Dear brother, with respect, you also need to clear your mind of the Shi’a theology which is dependent on late fallible sources. When asked for clear evidence from the Quran, I respectfully find that you have to desperately appeal to Ahadith written at times centuries after the death of the Prophet to prove your theology. From a Quran's perspective this is unacceptable.
As to mentioning them by name, refer Holy Quran 40:78 "We did aforetime send Apostles before thee there are some whose story we have related to thee,and some whose story we have not related to thee". Are you then going to deny those Prophets sent by Allah whose names are not mentioned in the Quran by your erroneous assumed logical criterion's
With respect, this is a red herring and a poor, even erroneous analogy on your part, not mine.
You want me and the respected wider readership to believe that the Quran can mention a close contemporary of the Prophet, an adopted son by name such as 'Zayd' (33:37), and the Quran can name a despicable individual such as Abu Lahab also arguably by name - 111:1 (both who are contemporaries of the Prophet) yet the Quran fails to mention 'Ali' who was a Divinely appointed Imam for mankind's guidance?
Whereas I am talking about names of the contemporaries which are mentioned by the Quran, you are seeking desperate inferences from verses 40:78 about certain messengers - rasulan (not prophets) which the Quran does not deem fit to mention.
You see, the matter of 'Imamate' is a fundamental doctrine (usul). According to the Shi'a, these Imams are Divinely appointed to lead mankind. Therefore, an 'usul' such as this should be mentioned clearly, explicitly, unequivocally in the Quran. The nameless numerous messengers from ancient history are not relevant for mankind's future guidance.
Dear brother, can you see how precarious you argument and beliefs are?
The Shi'a scholars are leading their masses blindly no different to many Sunni scholars. You both appeal to sources which have no warrant from the Quran. This has already led to much bloodshed.
You may as well dare to reject your salah on grounds that the methodology of its performance is not specified in the Quran and keep circumambulating around the Kaaba for the rest of your life ,on the grounds that though the commandment to circumambulate the Holy Kaaba as a rite of Hajj is commanded, as to the number of times it is not specified in the Holy QURAN ?
Once again, the exhausted / tired 'salah' analogy which the Sunni orthodoxy also cites. I have already addressed this. Dear respected brother, are you informing me that both the practice of Salah and Hajj are mentioned as subsidiaries (faruh-e-din), yet an 'usul' (fundamental doctrine) of the Shi'a has no mention in the Quran?
Do you really want me to accept this poor rationale?
Furthermore, you are arguing from the position that the Quran intends to prescribe a certain number of tawaf around the Ka'aba or a certain ritual method of salat. What proof do you have from the Quran for this? Again, you will argue from secondary sources which are in dispute.
You have no proof for a fundamental doctrine (usul) of the Shi'a. Fundamental doctrines need explicit support from the Quran. You are comparing an 'usul-e-din' (fundamental) with a 'faruh-e-din' (subsidiary) such as salat. The two are not comparable.
Please think about this carefully.
For a thorough comprehension of the truth and its application all intelligent seekers of truth have to refer to 1)The Holy Quran 2) Traditions from AhlulBait (who are divinely appointed and purified for the job by none other than Allah(swt) himself and 3) Islamic history. You simply cannot affordto ignore any of them.
With respect, you simply cannot expect rational, thinking minds to accept a source such as the traditions you cite without authority or evidence. This is wholly unacceptable.
Please provide explicit evidence for the support of the Shi'a doctrine (usul) from the Quran. Please!
Moreover it is obvious from the use of the masculine gender in this verse - clear for those acquainted with the Arabic language - the words ankum and yutah-hirakum meaning "from you" and "purify you" used in the Quran are masculine terms and refer to the said persons collectively,the majority of whom are males.
Dear brother, any student or speaker of Arabic will know that masculine plurals govern both genders even if one male is present regardless of the number of females.
If Allah (swt) had addressed the Prophets wives -as some misconstrue- then the Quran,the finest masterpiece of Arabic language would surely have used the feminine gender ankunna and yutah-hirakunna instead of the masculine, because they numbered more.
'Ahl-al-bayt' is simply a collective reference to the Household. Why have you excluded the Prophet from the collective reference of the House? Why have you excluded the possibility of other men of the house such as the Prophet's adopted son, Zayd mentioned by the Quran a few verses later (33:37), or wider household members such as wives and daughters? That is why the plural masculine is used to cover all genders.
You see, without the Hadith, the Shi'a doctrine is in a very precarious position.
By emphasizing the purity and INFALLIBLE leadership on the unwavering axis called Ahlul- Bayt, it endeavors to build the edifice of the Muslim society on the solid base of cleanliness and virtue.
With respect, this is nothing but a weak interpolation. You have not provided a single shred of evidence for the support of your 'exclusive members' of the Prophet's household knowing full well that there existed other members in the household such as the Prophet's wives and his many daughters.
Why is Ali not mentioned by name in the Quran? Why is Fatima not mentioned if they were so exclusive from a Quran’s perspective? Remember, we are talking about contemporaries of the Prophet, not random respected messengers from the past.
We are talking about what matters to believers! With respect, you have absolutely No evidence!
As regards Verse 42:23 the Prophet (saws) explicitly told the Muslims,that this verse refers to Ahlulbayt that is ALI,FATIMA,HASAN,and HUSAYN and urged them to obey and follow these illustrious personalities after him.
Where is the explicit reference in the Quran? Why do you have to keep appealing to the Ahadith corpus canonised centuries later by fallible human beings with sectarian and religious biases to make your case?
A sincere, unbiased, rational mind would arguably find this line of argumentation extremely untenable.
In summary, I have found that:
- You cannot provide one shred / iota of evidence from the Quran for a fundamental doctrine (usul) of the Shi'a, that 12 Divinely appointed men would lead mankind.
- You relentlessly compare 'subsidiaries' of religion (faruh-e-din) such as prayer with an 'usul' (fundamental of deen) without any warrant whatsoever.
- You cannot provide any reasons as to why the Quran can mention contemporaries of the Prophet such as 'Zayd' or even 'Abu Lahab' by name, but it fails to mention an important personality such as 'Ali' who was to become the first infallible imam for mankind's guidance after the death of the Prophet.
- Your theology is simply dependent on 'Hadith sources' written by fallible men, centuries after the death of the Prophet.
This is not evidence or proof. With respect, this is blind belief with a view in the main, to follow the footsteps and traditions of one’s forefathers.
I urge you to please consider this matter seriously and carefully.
With respect,
Joseph.
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Wow! No real support for the Shia school of thought without hadith. This discussion is a real expose of the Shia weakness. Where is the 'usul' as .br. Joseph said in the Quran??. Saba
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"And say: "Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish." ...17.81 - Yusuf Ali
Shiism has no backup in front of the holy quran. !!!! The quran shows the falsehood in their beliefs. The Quran is the only CRITERION!!!........
Shalom / peace
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Dear Mr. Ali,
Pleae also refer Quranic verse :
3:42 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God hath chosen thee and purified (Tahrak) thee- chosen thee above the women of all nations.
3:43 On Maryam - you will prostrate and bow .
Compare this to:
33:28 Prophet wives seeking vanatieis of this world
33:30 warning of double punishment
33:31 inform them of double reward for righteous behavior.
33:32 Allah reminding Wives of Prophet of their special status….. and after above reminders Allah - instructing Wives of Prophet :
33:33 And stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display, like that of the former Times of Ignorance; and establish regular Prayer, and give regular Charity; and obey God and His Apostle.
(As by this way ) God only wishes (yuridu) to remove all abomination from you ( Wives of Prophets) , ye members of the Family ( other family members/Ahle-Beit/people) , and to make you pure and spotless.
(here Allah only intend to purify abominated Ahle-Beit , if they comply Messenger's instructions ) and purification will come as above and also as indicated through Abraham in verse No: 22:26 by shunning the idol worship or non-associating with Allah as people at visiting at BEIT (haram) were used to.
Thoughts of 12 numbrs originated from Jacob having 12 sons/tribes and were leaders of Isaelis as indicated in Quran, hence this must have conjectured to have 12 Imamates. Again Hadith scholars innovate without authorization and argue on them ( 7:71). This is taghut in Quran's perspective (4:60). However, for others it is religious and they are happy with this ( 30:32 ).
We should have system (deen) applied to all humanity and should not be exclusive idolizing human ( either prophet, imam, leaders – as all are dead and fallible). Otherwise that faith will be CULT.
Dear brother - These are my personal views and should not be taken as offense in anyway as you have freedom to choose and good to have shared your views with us . Ultimately Allah knows the best as final judge and pray us to be guided at this difficult juncture - Ameen.
With respect ,
Sahil
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Salamun alaikum, brother Joseph:
From my own experience of many years, I am almost certain that any academic discourse that happens between someone who accepts the Qur’an as the ONLY source of Islam and someone who believe in the Qur’an AND something else is bound to end up in fiasco. It is because the two debating parties belong to two different “planets” (sorry for the alarming analogy). Both believe in the Qur’an but one of the debating paries believes in “Qur’an AND….”—<the Qur’an AND the Hadith/Sunnah>, or <the Qur’an AND the Ahl al-bayt (which to the Shi’a community is not the same as the Qur’anic Ahl al-bayt (33:33, referring primarily to the Prophet and his wives—and, by extension, to his daughters and their husbands, etc)>. This AND is the basic source of all problems in such debates. The Shi’a have a field day with the Sunnis because BOTH of them believe in “Qur’an AND…”, even though their “ANDs” are not exactly the same. Sunnis are a disadvantage because of their immense respect for at least the three imams and the Prophet’s daughter whom they cannot reject as genuine sources of guidance for that reason (I say ‘for that reason’, because the Sunnis never take their hadith from any of these four in general (sporadically, yes, but not generally), they would rather go for someone who is relatively a non-entity, Abu Hurayrah.
You are absolutely right, the Qur’an does not support ANY ‘pillar’ of the major Shi’a belief system built on the “Usul” scaffold—no mandate for imamate, no ‘panjtan pak’ (five infallible) or 14 m’asooms (14 infallibles), no mention of the names of the “Mubahala” (3:61) participants other than “OUR SONS AND YOUR SONS, OUR WOMEN AND YOUR WOMEN, OURSELVES AND YOURSELVES”—the tone and tenor of this verse is inclusive of the entire believer community versus the entire Christian community—without specification of any particular member of the Prophet’s family or any specific Christian family. The Qur’an doesn’t even specify whether this “mubahala” actually took place, as both sectarians suggest from the “Islamic history” which itself is suspect to a significant extent. You also notice that the Qur’an says “OUR WOMEN and your women”—how come the Prophet took only one woman (Fatima) to the exclusion of several other women in his household, such as his wives as ordered by Allah? This is not the ONLY question about Shiism and Sunnism—basically the Qur’an does not stand in support of either of these major sects of today. The Qur’an mentions no Abu Bakr, no Umar, no Uthman, no Ali, no Fatimah, no Hasan and no Husain by name! Rather it mentions only one companion by name—Zaid (33:37) and, subhanallah, what a mention! It says “WHOM GOD FAVORED AND WHOM YOU FAVORED”- a great and unique, unshared honor indeed. Ironically neither Sunni nor the Shi’a regard Zaid much of a companion—even though they do respect him. Brother Joseph, imagine if God would have said about Ali “WHOM GOD FAVORED AND WHOM YOU FAVORED” or the same about Abu Bakr!!! I think the Shias or Sunnis would have literally jumped through the roof! But who can argue with God—He gave that unique honor to Zaid and no one else.
Irfan
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Just the other day I happened to come across:
Origins of Shia'ism?
A Jew of Yemen, Arabia, of the seventh century, who settled in Medina and embraced Islam. Having adversely criticized Calif Othman's administration, he was banished from the town. Thence he went to Egypt, where he founded an antiothmanian sect, to promote the interests of Ali. On account of his learning he obtained great influence there, and formulated the doctrine that, just as every prophet had an assistant who afterward succeeded him, Mohammed's vizier was Ali, who had therefore been kept out of the califate by deceit. Othman had no legal claim whatever to the califate; and the general dissatisfaction with his government greatly contributed to the spread of Abdallah's teachings. Tradition relates that when Ali had assumed power, Abdallah ascribed divine honors to him by addressing him with the words, "Thou art Thou!" Thereupon Ali banished him to Madain. After Ali's assassination Abdallah is said to have taught that Ali was not dead but alive, and had never been killed; that a part of the Deity was hidden in him; and that after a certain time he would return to fill the earth with justice. Till then the divine character of Ali was to remain hidden in the imams, who temporarily filled his place. It is easy to see that the whole idea rests on that of the Messiah in combination with the legend of Elijah the prophet. The attribution of divine honors to Ali was probably but a later development, and was fostered by the circumstance that in the Koran Allah is often styled "Al-Ali" (The Most High).
Bibliography:Shatrastani al-Milal, pp. 132 et seq. (in Haarbrücken's translation, i. 200-201);
Weil, Gesch. der Chalifen, i. 173-174, 209, 259.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/189-abdallah-ibn-saba
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Peace.
just as every prophet had an assistant who afterward succeeded him,
What does he mean? Is he referring to the succession of the prophets- but they are not each other's "assistant" are they? Though they all promote the same message; the Quran completes it. I guess he did not get the memo.
(http://quransmessage.com/forum/Smileys/default/smiley.gif)
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Response by: Arif Ali Vakil on Facebook
Arif wrote:
"It is Allah's prerogative who or what He chooses to be explicit and implicit about. As you are aware that It is the government of God,By God, and for God. And As Allah (swt) declares in the Holy Quran ".......And He (Allah ) will not be asked as to what He did,but you will be asked." MATTERS NOT BEEN MENTIONED IN THE QURAN IS NOT A PROOF AGAINST THEIR NONEXISTENSE. As I too was correcting a Muslim brother, that You will not find the number of times you need to circumambulate the Holy Kaaba during the performance of Hajj\Umrah in the Holy Quran,you will have to refer it to the Holy Prophet (S). You will not find how to perform the Salah and the number of rakats in each salah in the Holy Quran ,you will have to refer it to the Holy Prophet (S). . It IS YOUR WORD AGAINST THE HOLY PROPHET (SAWS). If You do not seek guidance in the above two matters from the holy Prophet through his traditions you will not be able to offer your salah,neither will you know that you have to cicumambulate the Kaaba 7 times (else one might choose to keep circumumbulating the same all his life,PERHAPS TOO IN ALL MATTERS NOT CLEARLY SPELLED OUT IN THE HOLY QURAN). Allah (swt) says in the Holy Quran 40:78 "We did aforetime send Apostles before thee:of them there are some whose story we have related to thee and some who we have not related to thee". When God can choose not to mention many of His Prophets by name, then what is the relevance of HIM choosing not to mention whatever in his Eternal wisdom and choice.
Regards bro Joseph Islam"
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Dear brother Ali,
May peace be with you.
Please see my responses to your comments in red.
"It is Allah's prerogative who or what He chooses to be explicit and implicit about. As you are aware that It is the government of God,By God, and for God. And As Allah (swt) declares in the Holy Quran "
Yet neither a fundamental doctrine (usul) of the Shi'a nor the name of the first Divinely appointed imam as alleged by the Shia is mentioned by the Quran? This is especially when the Quran is not averse from naming individuals such as 'Zayd' when it deems appropriate.
Please remember how the Quran describes itself:
- A Clear Guidance (Huda)
- Clear Proof (Burhan)
- Explained in Detail (Fussilat)
- Clear Explanation of All Things (Tibiana Lekulli Shayin)
- The Ultimate Scale - Balance (Mizaan)
- Discernment Between Truth and Falsehood (Furqan)
- Evidence Absolutely Clear (Bayyina)
MATTERS NOT BEEN MENTIONED IN THE QURAN IS NOT A PROOF AGAINST THEIR NONEXISTENSE.
Fundamental matters of doctrine are mentioned in the Quran. How many times in the Quran is the oneness of God mentioned? How many times is the Day of Judgment mentioned? How many times are the great Prophets mentioned? How many times is the Torah, Injeel and the angels mentioned?
Now, how many times are the 12 Divinely appointed imams mentioned in the Quran? Not even once.
It is my humble assertion that an absence in the Quran of an alleged 'doctrine' means that the doctrine is false.
You will not find the number of times you need to circumambulate the Holy Kaaba during the performance of Hajj\Umrah in the Holy Quran,you will have to refer it to the Holy Prophet (S). You will not find how to perform the Salah and the number of rakats in each salah in the Holy Quran ,you will have to refer it to the Holy Prophet (S).
With respect, it is for you to provide evidence from the Quran for a specified number of rakats from the Quran. Not vice versa. It is for you to provide evidence from the Quran for a specified number of circuits around the Ka'aba. Not vice versa.
Regardless, even the need to establish prayer is mentioned numerous times in the Quran which is not even an 'usul' but a subsidiary practice of the religion. Yet, the Shi'a fundamental doctrine (usul) escapes complete mention!
It IS YOUR WORD AGAINST THE HOLY PROPHET (SAWS).
No dear brother. It is your word against the Quran. I would respectfully side with the Quran. With utmost humility and respect, I would urge you to do the same.
If You do not seek guidance in the above two matters from the holy Prophet through his traditions you will not be able to offer your salah,neither will you know that you have to cicumambulate the Kaaba 7 times (else one might choose to keep circumumbulating the same all his life
Dear brother, if you read the relevant articles I have already shared with you, you will find that I would have no problem in assimilation and practicing both. Absence of a number of circumambulations around the Kaaba does not mean that one would continue with circuits throughout their life. Have you considered the possibility that an absence of a specific number was deliberate so that in His mercy, God allowed His servants a choice in accordance to what they could manage with ease? Why the number 7?
Here is an article which may help, God willing.
THE SEVEN CIRCUITS OF THE KA'ABA
http://quransmessage.com/articles/seven%20circuits%20FM3.htm
"We did aforetime send Apostles before thee:of them there are some whose story we have related to thee and some who we have not related to thee". When God can choose not to mention many of His Prophets by name, then what is the relevance of HIM choosing not to mention whatever in his Eternal wisdom and choice.
With respect, I have already responded to this contention. Please read my response below.
With respect, this is a red herring and a poor, even erroneous analogy on your part, not mine.
You want me and the respected wider readership to believe that the Quran can mention a close contemporary of the Prophet, an adopted son by name such as 'Zayd' (33:37), and the Quran can name a despicable individual such as Abu Lahab also arguably by name - 111:1 (both who are contemporaries of the Prophet) yet the Quran fails to mention 'Ali' who was a Divinely appointed Imam for mankind's guidance?
Whereas I am talking about names of the contemporaries which are mentioned by the Quran, you are seeking desperate inferences from verses 40:78 about certain messengers - rasulan (not prophets) which the Quran does not deem fit to mention.
You see, the matter of 'Imamate' is a fundamental doctrine (usul). According to the Shi'a, these Imams are Divinely appointed to lead mankind. Therefore, an 'usul' such as this should be mentioned clearly, explicitly, unequivocally in the Quran. The nameless numerous messengers from ancient history are not relevant for mankind's future guidance.
Dear brother, can you see how precarious you argument and beliefs are?
The Shi'a scholars are leading their masses blindly no different to many Sunni scholars. You both appeal to sources which have no warrant from the Quran. This has already led to much bloodshed.
With utmost respect and regards,
Joseph.
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Peace and Blessings of Allah (swt) be upon all. This is in response to brother Irfan's comments on the quranic verse 3:61 " But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge,then say : Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our selves (anfus) and your selves,then let us beseech Allah and invoke his curse upon the liars". Brother Irfan's question is as to why did the Prophet take one woman Fatima (A.S) to the exclusion of several other women in his household ? There are some minute linguistic points in this verse which are worthy of note. This group (Ali,Fatima,Hasan and Husayn) is used as an adjunct,and the Prophet as the possessor, in a genetic term,as is seen in 'our sons','our womwen' and 'ourselves'. Had not the Prophet taken Fatima along with him,people would have thought that 'our women' means the Prophet's wives and 'our sons' refers to Fatima though she was a female and 'ourselves indicates his sacred self alone. But by taking along only these fourand no one else besides,the Prophet was showing the Muslims,that the best example for women is Fatima (a.s) and the foremost example for boys are Hasan and Husain,according to the Quran's wordings, which also delicately used the word our selves for Ali, thereby solving the question of succession once and for all. Regards
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<<<What does he mean? Is he referring to the succession of the prophets- but they are not each other's "assistant" are they? Though they all promote the same message; the Quran completes it. I guess he did not get the memo.>>>
Probably he meant "just as Prophet Aaron was appointed as assistant to Prophet Moses". Shi'a swell on this 'Aaron/Musa relationship' for their own Ali/Muhammmad analogue.
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Respected brother Joseph, May peace and Blessings of Allah (swt) be upon you and all the brothers & sisters At the expense of repetition you will not find the number of times you need to circumambulate the Holy Kaaba during the performance of Hajj\Umrah in the Holy Quran,you will have to refer it to the Holy Prophet (S). You will not find how to perform the Salah and the number of rakats in each salah in the Holy Quran ,you will have to refer it to the Holy Prophet (S). Brother if you, as you assert, that since you consider absence of doctrines in the Holy Quran as false tell me HOW THEN WILL YOU COMPLETE YOUR OBLIGATIONS OF THE PERFORMANCE OF SALAH without referring to sources outside it ??? Or have you discovered Holy verses directing you how to perform Salah and the number of rakats you need to perform in your daily compulsory prayers ??? The Holy Prophet (saws), a divinely appointed messenger and sent as a mercy to the worlds, by enlightening us on all essential matters does not in anyway preach against the Holy Book and NOBODY can afford not to accept and follow his teachings ON THE GROUNDS THAT THEY ARE NOT PRESENT IN THE HOLY BOOK. Brother,you need to reexamine and realize how precarious your beliefs are. With Warmest Regards. Arif Ali
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Bother Arif,
I think the verse 3:61 is VERY clear and simple to understand. It is asking the two disputing parties---who lay disputed claims to their own versions of Truth---to gather together at one place and invoke Allah's curse / wrath on the liar party and then see which party survives. We are talking about the diehard communities that are deadest at their own convictions-no party budging an inch from their position! That's why a final threatening and decisive mubahala is called in the form of a Divine challenge. It is not about bringing one family--and that too only a few members, that would be a mockery of the mubahala challenge. It is about all those are in the game----either all of you survive or all of us---that's the game. The wording "OUR SONS AND YOUR SONS, OUR WOMEN AND YOUR WOMEN, OURSELVES AND YOURSELVES" of the Arabic verse is precise, clear, and all-encompassing.
Please ask yourself: Suppose you did not know anything about Ali, Fatima, Hasan, and Husain, what would you understand from this verse?
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Dear Brother Joseph,
Salam Alaykum !
Why hasn't Imam Ali (a.s.) been mentioned in the Holy Quran?
Concise answer:~
One should be aware that although the imam’s names, )especially Imam Ali’s(, haven’t been mentioned in the Quran, nevertheless, their names, )especially Imam Ali’s(, can be found in the Prophet’s sayings. One very good example is the hadith of Ghadir which is considered the official announcement of the appointment of Imam Ali as successor to Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h.) after his decease. This hadith sanadwise (its chain of narrators) is mutawatir (meaning that the number of narrators narrating it is so high that one becomes sure that the hadith is authentic and that all of the narrators can’t be lying or can’t be mistaken in their narration), and concerning its content and meaning, contains clear evidence on Imam Ali (a.s.) being Imam.
Moreover, the Holy Quran itself has spoken about Imam Ali (a.s.). The most important verse that has spoken about him, is verse 55 of Surah Ma’idah which says: “Only Allah is your Waliyy (one who is in charge of everything) and His apostle and those who believe, those who establish prayer and pay the poor-rate while bowing down in rokoo’.”It has been stated in both Shia and Sunni history, tafsir and hadith books that this ayah was revealed when Imam Ali (a.s.) gave his valuable ring as charity to a needy person while bowing down in Rukoo’. This verse is only talking about Imam Ali (a.s.) and no one else is meant by this ayah. So, although Imam Ali’s name hasn’t been mentioned in the Quran, yet he has clearly been spoken of in it.
There are at least two reasons why Imam Ali’s name hasn’t been mentioned in the Quran. First, because the Quran usually expresses general matters and instructions, and doesn’t get very specific. For example, Imam Sadiq (a.s.) was asked why the imams haven’t been named in the Quran. He answered that concerning wilayah (religious authorithy), the Quran has acted the same way that it has regarding salat, zakat, and hajj. The Quran hasn’t been very specific on how to perform these acts, and has only said that they have to be done. The Prophet is the one who has thoroughly explained how these acts must be performed. In the same way, the Prophet has become very detailed in relation to those succeeding him, without any need for them to be explicitly named in the Quran. The second of many reasons for the above-mentioned issue is that since wilayah was a controversial issue, and there were big chances that others would disagree with it, it was much better and safer for the Quran to express it implicitly so that it wouldn’t cause them to go against the Quran and Islam itself! It’s very clear that this isn’t to the benefit of the Muslim Ummah and is a good reason for not mentioning the names of the imams in the Quran. In other words, if the appointment of Imam Ali as successor was to be clearly mentioned in a verse of the Quran, there was a possibility that those who opposed it would somehow falsify or get rid of the verse in order to destroy all of the evidence showing that he is the true successor to the Prophet (p.b.u.h.). As a result, Islam would lose its value as the final religion for mankind in addition to the Quran losing its value as an eternal divine book . Moreover, the Quran says: “Surely we have revealed the Reminder (the Quran), and We will most surely be its guardian.” One of the ways of protecting the Quran is to naturally and very normally block the reasons that might provoke falsification and hostility towards it and not let them even come up in the first place. Consequently, two things take place. Firstly, the Quran doesn’t clearly mention Imam Ali (a.s.). Secondly, the verses regarding his religious authority such as Ayah Tabligh which is the official announcement of his appointment to being successor, and Ayah Tathir which has to do with the infallibility of the imams, are all located in between verses that don’t have anything to do with these subjects so that the Quran stays protected throughout history, and no one thinks about falsifying it because of the truth it is expressing.
Detailed Answer
First of all, one must note that: 1- The imams’ names have been explicitly mentioned in the Prophet’s sayings, especially Imam Ali’s name in which the Holy Prophet of Islam has in many different events, clearly stated that Imam Ali is his successor and the religious authority after him. For example, in the wake of Prophet Muhammad’s prophethood, when he was ordered by Allah to invite his tribe, family, and relatives to Islam, he declared: “The first person to believe in me (answer my call to Islam) will be my wasiyy, minister, and successor.” The only person to answer him was Imam Ali (a.s.). In the end, when no one answered the Prophet other than Ali (a.s.), he said: “After me, you (Ali) are my wasiyy, minister and successor.”[1] Another example is the famous hadith of Ghadir in which the Prophet clearly stated that: “Whosoever I am his Mowla, Ali is his Mowla.”[2] Also in the hadith of Manzilah, the Prophet states that: “You (Ali (a.s.)) are in comparison with me, like Harun compared with Musa, the only difference (between us and them) is that there is no prophet after me.”[3] The hadiths of the holy Prophet (p.b.u.h.) regarding the fact that Imam Ali (a.s.) will take his place are mostly Mutawatir (meaning that there is no doubt that the hadith has been said by the prophet because the number of narrators is so high that one becomes sure that it is impossible for the hadith to be an unauthentic one) and this fact has been pointed to in both Sunni and Shia books.[4] In yet another hadith, the Prophet (p.b.u.h.) names all of the imams after him for Jaber-ibn-Abdillah-al-Ansari, from Imam Ali until the twelfth and final imam meaning Imam Mahdi (a.s.).[5]
So one should be aware that although the imams’ names haven’t been explicitly stated in the Quran, yet the holy Prophet, whose words are all true and come from Wahy (divine inspiration)[6], has clearly expressed their names and emphasized on their being imams after him.
2- Imam Ali’s Wilayah (religious authority) has been pointed out in the Quran even though his name hasn’t been explicitly mentioned. Both Shia and Sunni commentators of the Quran admit that verse 55 of surah Ma’idah has been revealed regarding Imam Ali (a.s.) and that he is the only one meant by it.[7] “Only Allah is your waliyy and His apostle and those who believe - those who establish salat and give charity while bowing (in rokoo’).”
Given the fact that in Islam there is no ruling saying that giving charity while in rokoo’ (bowing in prayer) is preferred as mustahabb or wajib, one can easily conclude that this verse is pointing to an event that occurred only once. This verse is speaking of the time in which Imam Ali was praying in the masjid. When he went down to rokoo’, a beggar came up to him asking for help, Imam Ali pointed to his finger and the beggar approached him, took off the imam’s ring and left.[8] Thus, the verse is saying that religious authority and supervision of the Islamic ummah are solely[9] for Allah, His messenger and Imam Ali (a.s.), and other than them, no one has any authority.
So, till now we have concluded that the imams’ names have been mentioned by the Prophet (p.b.u.h.) and Imam Ali’s wilayah has clearly been pointed to in the Quran, such that an unprejudiced and unbiased researcher really searching for the truth, can easily reach the conclusion that the Prophet’s (p.b.u.h.) standpoint on those succeeding him, was that Imam Ali (a.s.) and his children are to succeed him after his passing away. But why haven’t Imam Ali and the other imam’s names been explicitly mentioned in the Quran? There can be two reasons behind this issue:
1- “The Quran usually speaks in a very general way and mostly teaches us principles, ways and methods (instead of getting very specific) as it has regarding the osool (pillars)and foroo’ (branches) of Islam.” This is what Imam Sadeq (a.s.) has said.[10] He goes on to give us three examples: a) Salat. The Quran has been general regarding salat; not being specific about how long it is supposed to be and how it is supposed to be performed. On the other hand, the Prophet of Islam (p.b.u.h.) has clearly illustrated how to perform it for us and how many rak’ats each prayer should be. b) Zakat. In the Quran, zakat has only been mentioned as an Islamic ruling. It was the Prophet who expressed which things have zakat and what the criteria for zakat becoming wajib for each one is.
c) Hajj. The Quran says that Hajj is wajib and no more, but the Prophet has explained how it is supposed to be performed.[11]
Therefore, it is wrong to expect to be able to find every detail in the Quran. So it is a big mistake not to follow the imams just because of the fact that none of their names have come in the Quran. That’s why no one says that noon prayers (which are 4 rak’ats) have to be prayed 2 rak’ats just because the Quran hasn’t mentioned how many rak’ats each prayer is.
2- In issues like this, in which there are big chances that others will disagree, it is much better for the Quran to express the truth implicitly rather than explicitly, otherwise there is a high possibility that they will end up denying the Quran as a whole. It’s very obvious that such a problem isn’t to the benefit of the Muslim ummah. Of course, the Quran says: “Surely we have revealed the Reminder (the Quran), and We will most surely be its guardian”[12], but one should remember that one of the ways of protecting the Quran and not letting others falsify or change it, is for it to speak in a way that others (such as the hypocrites who show that they are Muslims on the outside even though they aren’t within) don’t get sensitive and provoked. In this way, the high respect and value of the Quran will be kept, and certain individuals won’t think of changing or falsifying it in a way that will comply with their personal desires and wicked goals or just because they disagree with something.[13]
Shahid Ayatollah Motahhari answers this question in the following way. He says: “The answer to the question that why hasn’t Imam Ali’s khilafah and imamah been mentioned in the Quran, is that 1- The Quran usually expresses general laws. 2- The Holy Prophet (p.b.u.h.) or Allah (s.w.t.) didn’t want such an issue in which people are sensitive about and prefer their own desires (to what Islam wants), to be presented explicitly, and although it wasn’t, people still went against it and falsely interpreted the Prophet’s sayings to their own benefit. In other words even if the Quran had clearly stated that Ali (a.s.) is successor to the Prophet they still would have found a way around it. The holy Prophet (p.b.u.h.) said: "ذا علی مولاه" (Ali is his Mawla). How much more clear can one get? (Yet they interpreted what he said falsely and according to their will.)Yet there is a big difference between ignoring what the Prophet (p.b.u.h.) has said after him passing away regardless of all of its clarity and ignoring what the Quran has been completely clear about one day after his demise. That is why I have narrated in my book “Khilafah and Wilayah” that once during Imam Ali’s reign, a Jew wanted to attack and criticize the Muslim ummah for undesirable events that took place in the beginning of Islam. He told Imam Ali (a.s.) (and of course what he said really was a negative point) that you (the Muslim ummah) started quarreling over your prophet even before completely burying him after his death. Imam Ali answered: We argued about what he had instructed, not over the Prophet himself, but you (meaning the Jews) disregarded the most important principle of your religion which is tawhid (oneness of God), and asked your prophet to build an idol for you to worship. So there is a big difference between you and us; we didn’t argue about our prophet, we argued about what the interpretation of his saying was (and what he wanted us to do after his death). These two vary tremendously. (Motahhari goes on to say that) there is a big difference between saying that the people back then had misunderstood what the Prophet had said and saying that the Muslims back then rejected what the Quran had clearly stated or had falsified it.[14]
So one can say that the main reason behind not mentioning the names of the imams, or at least Imam Ali’s name, is the protection of the Quran from falsification and change, and that is why the verses of tathir[15], tabligh[16], and wilayah[17] are all located between verses that are either talking about the Prophet’s wives, different Islamic rulings, or not being friends with The People of the Book (ahlul-kitab), which all have nothing to do with the religious authority of the imams and Imam Ali (a.s.), yet the fair and unbiased researcher can with the least consideration tell that this part of the verse is separate from the verses before and after it and is located there for a certain reason.[18][19]
For further information, see “The Quran and Imam Ali (a.s.)”, question 324 (website:1817).
[1] Ibn-al Bitriq, Al-Umdah, pg.121 & 133, Seyyed Hashem Bahrani, Ghayat-ul-Maram, pg. 320, Allamah Amini, Al-Ghadir, v.2, pg. 278.
[2] This hadith is mutawatir (a hadith that has been narrated so many times by different narrators that one becomes sure that it is authentic) and has been narrated in both Shia and Sunni books. In the book Al-Ghadir, the different “levels of narrators” of the hadith from the first till the fourteenth century (lunar calendar) have been named, in which the foremost are more than 60 narrators from the Prophet’s companions who have narrated the hadith in Sunni books and whose names have been recorded there. Also, in Mir Hamed Hosein’s book, Abaqat, it has been proven that this hadith is mutawatir. See Al-Ghadir, v.1, pg.14-114, Ibn-al-Maghazeli, Managheb, pg. 25-26, Motahhari, Emamat va Rahbari, pg. 72-73.
[3] Al-Umdah, pg.173-175, Ahmad-ibn-Hanbal, Musnad Hanbal, v. 3, pg.32, Al-Ghadir, v.1, pg. 51, v.3, pg. 197-201.
[4] Many efforts have been made in both Al-Ghadir and Abaqat to prove that the traditions concerning Imam Ali’s imamah are mutawatir. Fazel-e-Qooshji, a Sunni scholar, doesn’t reject the fact that some of these traditions are mutawatir. See Sharh-e-Qooshji bar Tajrid-ul-I’tiqad, Khajeh al-Tusi.
[5] Muhammad-ibn-Hasan al-Ameli, Ithbat-ul-Hudat, v.3, pg. 123, Suleiman-ibn-Qandoozi, Yanabee’-ul-Mawaddah, pg. 494, Ghayat-ul-Maram, v.10, pg. 267 (as quoted by Misbah Yazdi, Amoozesh Aqa’ed, v.2, pg. 185).
[6] “Nor does he (The Prophet (p.b.u.h.)) speak out of desire, It (what he says) is nothing but divine revelation (from Allah (s.w.t.))” Najm:3-4
[7] See tafsir books, commentaries regarding this verse, such as Fakhr-ul-Din Al-Razi, Al-Tafsir-ul-Kabir, v.12, pg. 25, Tafsir Nemooneh, v.4, pg. 421-430, Jalal-ul-Din Al-Suyuti, Al-Durr-ul-Manthoor, v.2, pg. 393. Also, Sunni hadith references have narrated the hadith; Muhibb-ul-Din Tabari, Thakha’ir-ul-Uqba, pg. 88, Jalal-ul-din Suyuti, Lubab-ul-Nuqul, pg.90, Ala’ul-Din Ali Al-Muttaqi, Kanz-ul-Ummal, v.6, pg. 391, and many other references in which Tafsir Nemooneh has pointed to some of them.
[8] This analysis has been acquired from Shahid Motahhari’s book Emamat va Rahbari, pg. 37.
[9] According to Arabic literature scholars, the word “innama” means “only” and shows that what has been stated in the sentence is something exclusively for the person(s) mentioned.
[10] Koleini, Osool-ul-Kafi, kitab-ul-hujjah, v.1, chapter Ma nassallahu wa rasuluhu alal-a’immah wahedan fawahedan.
[11] This is the hadith itself:
عن ابى بصیر قال: سالت اباعبدالله (ع) عن قوله الله عزوجل "اطیعوا الله و اطیعوا الرسول و اولى الامر منکم"، فقال (ع) نزلت فى على بن ابى طالب و الحسن و الحسین فقلت له: انّ الناس یقولون: فما له لم یسم علیا و اهل بیته فى کتاب الله عزوجل ؟ قال (ع) قولوا لهم: ان رسول الله نزلت علیه الصلاة و لم یسم الله لهم ثلاثاً و اربعا، حتى کان رسول الله هو الذى فسر لهم ذلک .و نزلت علیه الزکاة و لم یسم لهم من کل اربعین درهماً، حتى کان رسول الله هو الذى فسر لهم ذلک .و نزل الحج فلم یقل لهم طوفوا اسبوعاً حتى کان رسول الله هو الذى فسر لهم ذلک.
[12] This point was mentioned by Ayatollah Hadavi Tehrani in his classes of The Theological Principles of Ijtihad, which will be printed in the second volume of The Theological Principles of Ijtihad.
[13] Ibid
[14] Emamat va Rahbari, pg.109-110, 27th edition, Sadra Press, Tehran, 1381.
[15] “Verily, Allah’s will is to remove all impurity from you, ye household (of the Prophet) and to purify you thoroughly.” This part of the verse has been placed between verse speaking about the wives of the Prophet (p.b.u.h.). Ahzab:33
[16] “O Messenger! Proclaim the (message) which hath been sent to thee from thy Lord. If thou didst not, thou wouldst not have fulfilled and proclaimed His mission” This verse is in between verses speaking about haram meat and animal corpses (which are haram). Ma’idah:67
[17] “Verily your Waliyy is Allah and…” which is located after verses regarding not being friends with the Christians and Jews. Maidah:55
[18] This was also pointed to in one of Ayatollah Hadavi’s classes on the theological principles of ijtihad which will be printed in the second volume of the book.
[19] Acquired from Question 200 (site: 1223) Regards. Arif Vakil
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Dear brother Arif Ali,
May peace be with you.
Please see my responses to your comments in red.
HOW THEN WILL YOU COMPLETE YOUR OBLIGATIONS OF THE PERFORMANCE OF SALAH
By repeating your questions which I have responded to several times shows me:
- That you have no evidence from the Quran for the Shi’a 'usul' of ‘imamate’ and therefore you have no recourse but to consistently cite a red herring by asking irrelevant questions
- You are not reading my responses to your questions with sincerity.
With respect, I have already informed you clearly that the Quran does not religiously prescribe a form or specific utterances for salat, nor does it prescribe a specific number of 'tawaf' around the Ka'aba. Do you think that God runs out of words (31:27)?
With respect, which part of this assertion do you not understand?
I will repeat this twice more as you are not reading my responses.
- The Quran does not religiously prescribe a form or specific utterances for salat, nor does it prescribe a specific number of 'tawaf' around the Ka'aba.
- The Quran does not religiously prescribe a form or specific utterances for salat, nor does it prescribe a specific number of 'tawaf' around the Ka'aba.
The Quran informs believers to establish salat and gives guidance as to what monotheistic prayer entails for believers.
- The need to establish five prayers http://quransmessage.com/articles/the%20five%20prayers%20from%20the%20quran%20FM3.htm
- The details of ablution (4:43; 5:6)
- A need for a direction - Qiblah, specific for the ‘believers’ (Mu'mins) (2.143-44)
- Garments (7:31)
- Allusion of times: (4:103; 11:114; 17:78; 24:58; 30:18; 2:238: 20:58)
- That prayers must be observed on time (4:103)
- Followers of the previous scripture to observe their Qiblah and the Believers (Mu’mins) their own Qiblah (2:145)
- Prayer involves prostration (Sujood - 4:102; 48:29)
- There is more than one prayer (Prayer in plural used - Salawat) (2:238)
- There is a general form to prayer (2:238-39).
- Standing position (3:39; 4:102)
- Bowing down and prostrating (4:102; 22:26; 38:24; 48:29)
- Form is not required during times of emergencies, fear, and unusual circumstances (2:239)
- A mention of a call to prayer and congregation prayer (62:9)
- A warning not to abandon prayer as was done by people before (19:58-59) but to establish prayer (Numerous references)
- The purpose of prayer - To remember God alone (6:162; 20:14)
- Prayer involves utterance (4:43)
- The purpose to protect from sins (29:45)
- What to do in danger and the shortening of prayer (4:101)
- Garments and mention of a Masjid, or a place of prayer (7:31)
- The tone of prayer (17:110)
- There is a leader of prayer (4:102)
All the above is taught by the Quran.
Therefore, as long as prayer fits the above data, then the Salat is complete.
The Quran also expects one to assimilate which I have already covered in an article and I have no problem in following today's congregations as best practice.
This is because:
- First and foremost - It fits the Quran's requirements / criteria and
- The practice of prayer has been transmitted en masse from the time of the Prophet finding direct support from the Quran. I have already argued this from a Quran’s perspective in dedicated articles.
Please do not keep repeating the same questions.
With regards Hajj, I once again post two articles:
- The Seven Circuits of the Ka'aba
http://quransmessage.com/articles/seven%20circuits%20FM3.htm - The Hajj and Umrah According to the Quran
http://quransmessage.com/articles/hajj%20FM3.htm
Once again, please do not keep repeating the same questions.
Now please can you provide clear evidence for the Shi'a 'usul' from the Quran. Please do not keep diverting the matter to practices of religion as a cover for not being able to provide a fundamental 'usul' from the Quran.
It is my humble assertion that an absence in the Quran of an alleged 'doctrine' means that the doctrine is false.
I am respectfully awaiting your citation of clear evidence as I have been since the start of our dialogue in this thread.
You say:
There are at least two reasons why Imam Ali’s name hasn’t been mentioned in the Quran. First, because the Quran usually expresses general matters and instructions, and doesn’t get very specific.
Then you cite hadith to back up your assertion:
This is what Imam Sadeq (a.s.) has said
This is wholly incorrect and unacceptable. Are you suggesting to me and the wider readership that your Imam did not know the Quran nor had he studied it in detail?
The Quran is very explicit and detailed in matters of religion and ‘usul’. Please read the Quran carefully and not repeat typical clergy propaganda against the Quran,
Please remember you will be answerable for your testimony on the Day of Judgment.
THE QURAN IS FULLY DETAILED IN MATTERS OF RELIGION
006:114
"Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than God? - when He is the One who has sent to you the Book, explained in detail (Arabic: Mufassalan)." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it has been sent down from your Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt"
012:111
"In their histories there is certainly a lesson for men of understanding. It is not a narrative which could be forged, but a verification of what is before it and a detailed explanation (Arabic: watafsila)and a guide and a mercy to a people who believe"
I have also already informed you that the Quran calls itself a Book which is ‘tibiana lekulli shayin’
016.089
“And on the day when We will raise up in every people a witness against them from among themselves, and bring you as a witness against these and We have revealed the Book to you explaining clearly / clarification of everything (Arabic: tibiana lekulli shayin), and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit”
How can a Book be ‘tibiana (clarification) lekulli (of every) shayin (thing)’ and be incomplete and general?
Your assertion is wholly unacceptable.
Either the Quran is wrong or the citation in the name of your imam is wrong, or what he cited was wrong.
Would you really take what the hadith tells you over the Quran?
Dear brother, with respect, do you see how precarious your doctrine and understanding of the Quran is?
On the other hand, the Quran is explicit that it alone should be followed for religious guidance.
Please see the following article:
GOD HAS WARNED BELIEVERS TO ONLY FOLLOW THE QURAN
http://quransmessage.com/articles/god%20has%20warned%20believers%20to%20only%20follow%20the%20quran%20FM3.htm
You are denying explicit verses and relying on ‘inferred’ theology which has no support from the Quran. This is indeed a serious matter.
In issues like this, in which there are big chances that others will disagree, it is much better for the Quran to express the truth implicitly rather than explicitly, otherwise there is a high possibility that they will end up denying the Quran as a whole.
With respect brother, what kind of erroneous rationale is this? You cannot find explicit support for an ‘usul’ from a detailed scripture and then you argue for implicit deductions?
This is unacceptable.
So one can say that the main reason behind not mentioning the names of the imams, or at least Imam Ali’s name, is the protection of the Quran from falsification and change,
One can say many things, but it has to be sensible with cogent appeal. With respect, baseless, desperate assertions such as the above to support an errant ideology has no place in a serious academic discussion.
Finally once again, please provide clear evidence for the fundamental doctrine (usul) of the Shi'a Imamate from the Quran.
With respect,
Joseph.
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Shalom / peace
I think bro Arif Ali Vakil is a Shii from birth and is finding it very difficult to see the clear verses of the Quran and separate this from his teachings from since he was a child.,,,, Also a lot is at stake - how can someone go against everything they have been taught since a baby and against all the teachings of their family and relatives. It must be very scary and I think he must be questioning things in his head.
The sunnis also have the same problem ,,,,,>>
Although I can relate to the feeling, we must submit to Allah's words and not mans. That is the true test of faith.
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we must submit to Allah's words and not mans. That is the true test of faith.
Dear Duster,
May peace be with you.
I completely agree with your above sentiment.
I do feel that it is difficult for most to challenge deeply held convictions. Hence, why these discussions are very important where evidence can be assessed openly and critically.
Deep down, I do feel that most people know when their arguments are weak or failing and when they are simply clutching at straws to find support for their positions.
My views are intended to be general and not specific to any individual or theological group.
Regards,
Joseph.
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PEACE,
My understanding is that our Shia brothers and sisters attribute the word mukhlasin to the infallibility of the prophets in the Quran.
38:45-48 and 83
Remember Our servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob possessors of strength and vision.
Inna akhlasnahum bikhalisatin thikra alddari
Wa-innahum AAindana lamina almustafayna al-akhyariAnd make mention of Ishmael and Elisha and Dhu'l-Kifl. All are of the chosen/all of the best./Each of them was of the Company of the Good/wakullun mina al-akhyari
It seems their logic is that when someone has been guided by God, they cannot be misguided by Satan or make mistake.
Tabataba’i defines ‘ismah as “the presence of a quality in a person that prevents him from committing any impermissible act such as a sin.”
I believe this trait which is bestowed by Allah is not limited to the prophets or imams but may apply to any abd-allah who has developed taqwa and has acquired the moral habit of refraining from sin.
Yes, the prophets have been guided by Allah. I believe Ali and Hussein also have been guided by Allah. I say this because of their inspirational sayings I have studied. Also Rumi. It is not based on lineage.
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Salam Irfan,
" Probably he meant "just as Prophet Aaron was appointed as assistant to Prophet Moses". Shi'a swell on this 'Aaron/Musa relationship' for their own Ali/Muhammmad analogue. "
There is no correlation at all. Prophet Moses requested God to make Aaron a messenger and a helper to be acknowledged by the Pharaoh and his chiefs
Are they claiming that Prophet Muhammad was in need of Ali ? Even if he were, the help was not sanctioned by the Quran. Actually the quotation is from the Jewish Encyclopedia.
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Salamun alaikum to all,
The end result of this discourse on the Shi'a doctrine was a forgone conclusion. You notice that NONE of the main doctrines of the Shi'a school of thought is sustainable from within the Qur'an. The Shi'a scholars literally scramble through the Book of Allah to find support for the Ali cluster of the "infallibles" but none is forthcoming. Sunnis have also been looking for Abu bakr's name or Umar's name in the Qur'an for the last 1100 years when these names were sanctified into the otherwise pristine Islam.
The Qur'an literally busts all the Sectarian bubbles with one poke!
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And peace Be upon you too and His mercy & blessings Irfan,
It seems you have not read my replies to your foregone preconceived conclusions.(Please help retrieve my reply regarding the same which I had addressed to you and Brother Joseph jointly). Nevertheless at the expense of repetition, if your comprehensive capacities permit you to accept the simple reality that an absence of the mention of names or subject matter do not prove the nonexistence of doctrines,practices or realities. There are many vital matters which are not mentioned in the Holy Quran, like method & number of rakats to be offered in a salah, the number of times the Holy Kaaba has to be circumumbulated, the meanings of letters at the beginning of many surahs like ALIF LAM MIM, YA SIN, HA MIM, TA SIN, QAF, TA HA etc and the same can only be understood by referring it to the Holy Prophet (saws). WILL YOU NEGLECT TO OFFER YOUR SALAH, TAWAAf OF THE KABAH ON THE GROUNDS THAT YOU FIND NO MENTION OF ITS PERFORMANCE IN THE HOLY BOOK OR RECOMMEND A SEPARATE SALAH FOR EACH HUMAN BEING ON THE EARTH. If anything is evident here,it is your incapacity to comprehend the pristine purity of the Shia faith (pls reread my replies until you clearly understand the truth). With Regards Arif Ali Vakil
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There bro Arif Ali Vakil goes again comparing doctrine and a pillar with practices!
What will it take to undo years of blind learning of his forefathers possible from birth?
Number 1: Salah is mentioned in the qur'an to establish numerous times.
Number 2: Tawaf is mentioned in the qur'an.
Where is Shi'a imamat mentioned????? Without this, you cannot EXIST!!!!!
A basic pillar of your faith is not mentioned in the QUR'AN. Why don't you get it?
There is no 'pristine purity' bro. It is unproven unevidenced CLAIMS!
No hard feelings.
Shalom / Peace
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Peace be upon you, my brother Arif ali,
Thanks for your reminders. There are all kinds of instructions about the Salat and circumambulations of the K'aba in the Qur'an. Consider this: If the method of wudu has been described completely in the Qur'an, it is not possible that the rest of the Salat is not. The Salat was already offered at the k'aba BEFORE the advent of the Prophet (piuh), only it was not being offered with proper understanding and spirit (8:35). There was no God-fear (taqwa), no direction, no remembrance of God, no focus in the Salat. It was reduced to a mere ritual. The FORM of the Salat was already there as it was one of the MANASIK (please study 2:125/128) but the spirit was absent. Br. Joseph Islam has posted all the relevant verses that provide the right guidance which needed to be injected into the 'FORM'. Similarly, the Hajj ritual was not new either. It was already being done at the K'aba for a long time--yes, including the circumambulation. If you think you should make only ONE circle and not seven, you comply with the Divine command. I do seven circles because I think it is a part of the established 'FORM'. But we should not lose sight of the fact that the real purpose of going for the Hajj is to remember Allah without many worldly distractions (away from home, abstention from sex, no argumentation / fighting--perfect peace).
So the Salat is mentioned multiple times in the Qur’an. How about the "CONTINUING IMAMATE"? Is it mentioned in the Qur'an (even once)? Brother, I would expect that there should be at least SOME indication from Allah telling us that we should follow some imamate--and also whose imamate? I see no evidence of that instruction in the Book. Even the word “Shi’a” is not used in the Qur’an the same way we know today. So please give me something that I can say consider seriously. I always keep my mind open.
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Peace brother Arif Ali,
I am really trying to understand Shia. I'll give you that the allusion to Ali to the position of leadership is in 5:55 because there is no such rule that we have to give zakat in ruku thus the verse must be referring to a specific incident that happened. Beyond that it is a leap of faith that I cannot find in the Quran.
(http://quransmessage.com/forum/Smileys/default/smiley.gif)
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Peace, Br. Hope:
The verse 5:55 is general--it doesn't give any impression that it may refer to anyone particular. This verse informs the believers that their friends are only Allah, His Messenger, and other believers--because the believers are the ones who establish Salat, pay the Zakaat, and bow before Allah. If this verse were implying ONE particular person, it would say "Allah, His Messnger, and the one who establishes Salat, and pays Zakkat while in ruku". Here's the full verse:
إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلاَةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ (5:55)
Basit - Hussari - Minshawi -
Innama waliyyukumu Allahu warasooluhu waallatheena amanoo allatheena yuqeemoona alssalata wayutoona alzzakata wahum rakiAAoona
Topics discussed in this Verse:
[Allah's friendship (to the believers)] [Charity [zakah]] [Kabah] [Zakah]
•5:55 (Picktall) Your friend can be only Allah; and His messenger and those who believe, who establish worship and pay the poor due, and bow down (in prayer).
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Peace be upon all & Allah's mercy and blessings.
Dear Brothers Joseph, Irfan, Duster.
I reproduce one more article regarding 'Imamate in the Holy Quran" to enable a better understanding of the matter.
Quite a few people are asking for evidences in the Quran for aspects of the Imamate. I thought I'd post this note here :
The belief in angels is mentioned numerous times in the Quran. But do people really care about the angels? Do the scholars spend their time studying what little is known about the angels with the greatest attention? If Allah hadn't kept mentioning them, we might have forgotten about them lol. An exaggeration perhaps, but I think you see the point: the number of times something is mentioned is not equal to how important it is.
How many times minimum does something need to be mentioned in the Quran for it to be absolutely true, important, and something that must be followed? Once. I think I'm correct in saying the only time the Quran talks about how you must fast in the month of Ramadhaan is 2:183-187. Yet it is an important thing. Fasting itself may be mentioned repeatedly, but fasting in the month of Ramadhaan isn't.How many times does Imamate need to be mentioned in the Quran for it to be true, important, and necessary to follow? Once.
They ask you for proof of the Imamate. Then let us turn to the Quran first for proof, before we turn to the ahadeeth (narrations) and tareekh (history):
Translation of the Glorious Quran (by Shakir):
[4:59] O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger (Rasul) and those in authority (Ulil-Amr) from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.
The obedience to Rasulullaah ("the Messenger (of God)") is equal to the obedience to Ulil-Amr ("the people of authority") as can be seen by the wording.
"ateeAAoo Allaha waateeAAoo arrasoola waolee al-amri minkum" = "obey the Messenger (Rasul) and those in authority (Ulil-Amr) from among you": Notice how the same "obey" that is used for Rasulullaah is also used for Ulil-Amr. This means that the Ulil-Amr must have the same authority as a leader and commander as the Rasululllaah or they wouldn't have the same level of obedience in this verse.
One of the reasons why we trust Rasulullah and we have to obey him is because his words are not his own; they are the words of God (69:40-47). He receives communications from the Lord Almighty. He is infallible. The same must apply to Ulil-Amr because they must be obeyed without condition. Since the verse equates the obedience to the Prophet to the obedience to the Ulil-Amr, one cannot disobey the Ulil-Amr.
Notice that the verse says "if you quarrel about anything, refer to Allah and the Messenger"; since we cannot disobey the Ulil-Amr, even when we quarrel with Ulil-Amr, they cannot be in the wrong.
So what does the Quran say about quarrelling with them? "refer to Allah and the Messenger". Why? The Ulil-Amr are right, but if a person does not believe in them, he or she refer to Allah and His "postman" - Rasulullaah. Why? Allah and Rasulullaah are the bringers of law and truth. The Ulil-Amr do not have this role. They do not reveal/bring/establish the law and truth. Anyway, since Rasulullaah is equated with Ulil-Amr, disputing with the Ulil-Amr is disputing with Rasulullaah.
But they must be obeyed, just like one obeys Rasulullaah; and they cannot be in the wrong. Thus, they only speak what Allah and Rasulullaah have brought. The Ulil-Amr only say what Allah and Rasulullaah say. This can only be true all the time if Ulil-Amr have all the knowledge of Rasulullaah. Otherwise, if they were asked a question and they were deficient in their knowledge, they would speak from their own opinion, and the verse would no longer be true! What happens if Rasulullaah dies and the Ulil-Amr remain? The Ulil-Amr are still present, and since they only speak what Allah and Ulil-Amr say, they must still be obeyed and followed. Therefore it would be a great wrong to even consider obeying and learning Islam from any other human being when the Ulil-Amr are present! How could we follow any other, regardless of whether they were a sahabi (companion of the Prophet) who was with the Prophet for decades or a scholar who studied for decades, when they, perfect sources, are present?
Look everywhere in the Quran where Allah asks they you to obey; He puts the condition that if they disobey Him, then this is what you do. For example, God tells us to obey our parents; but then He says if they disobey Him, then disobey them. The only obedience in the Quran where Allah does not warn you of disobedience is to Ulil-Amr. This indicates that Allah's opinion of them is that they would never disobey Him; which means they can never go against His commands. By not warning us of any disobedience from them, He is making it clear that they would never be disobedient in the face of the doubt and disbelief (in them) of many.
Why does Allah command us to obey Muhammed, peace and blessings be upon him and his Ahlulbayt? It's because he was chosen as Rasulullaah. Why was he chosen? Because he is the pure and because he is the greatest of men. Obedience to Rasulullah = obedience to Ulil-Amr, so that "waw" ("and") next to the word "Rasulullaah" means that all those qualities apply to Ulil-Amr. Allah has chosen those who are Ulil-Amr for their great qualities and for being the greatest of men.
In one verse, the Ulil-Amr are given nass (designation), authority, isma (infallibility), and ilm (knowledge). Let's give the Ulil-Amr a nickname. How about "Imams"? Oh wait, that sounds suspiciously like the Shia concept of Imamate. Plagiarism perhaps lol? Or maybe the same Author is behind this all.
Do you want Imamate to be clearly written out in clear, simple terms with what the role of Imamate is and the qualities that an Imam will possess? Too bad; it seems the Quran does not work like that. Want an example? Let's look at Salaat. Arguably one of the most important things in the whole religion of Islam. Even though it is mentioned all over the Quran, nowhere do the Majestic Words of the Creator give a passage that acts as a manual to Salaat. Instead in one chapter, we find just one verse that mentions the timings. When it comes to the number of rakaat per Salaat, not even a single verse! In-fact, ar-Rahmaan, subhanahu wa tala, does not give a clear method of how to perform Salaat! But, I thought Salaat was supposed to be important? Of course it is. It's very important. That's why it's mentioned in the Quran, Sunnah, and ahadeeth. Imamate is also a very important concept. It's mentioned a few times in the Quran with different words, such as walaya. But it's mentioned and that's enough.
"I asked Abu 'AbdAllaah (as-Sadiq)about the words of Allaah 'Believers, obey Allah, His Messenger, and your leaders (who possess Divine Authority). . . .' (4:59) "The Imam said, 'This was sent from the heavens about `Ali ibn Abi Taalib, Al-Hasan and Al-Hussain ' I then said, 'People say, "Why did He not specify Ali and his family by their names in the Book of Allaah ?' "The Imam said, 'Say to them, "The command for prayer came to the Messenger of Allah but He has not specified (the number of the Rak'ats) for them as being three or four. It, in fact, was the Messenger of Allah who explained to them this matter. The command for Zakat (a form of income tax) came to the Messenger of Allah and there was no specific taxable number such as one Dirham on every forty Dirham. It was the Messenger of Allah who explained it for them. The command for Hajj came to the Messenger of Allah. It did not say walk seven times around the Ka'ba. It was the Messenger of Allah who explained it for them...."
Source: al-Kulayni in his al-Kafi, volume 1, pages 286–288, hadeeth #1
Grading: al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH (authentic) in his Mir'aat Al-`Uqool, volume 3, page 213
Some thoughts to conclude
Now before anyone replies saying "Tabatabaa'ee's arguments/commentary are weak/untrue", please think about why they are weak. I've seen quite a few people say this, yet they provided no reason as to why they think this. There are Sunni scholars who have agreed with various aspects of what has been written above. One example is ar-Razi who agreed that 4:59 makes Ulil-Amr infallible; (however he tried to make it out that the Ulil-Amr are the whole Ummah...which for a variety of reasons is a poor explanation. A simple example: the verse says the "those in authority _amongst you_" (ulil-amri minkum). I.e. there are certain people in the Ummah who are so-and-so. Not the whole Ummah. Razi's explanation contradicts the wording of the verse).
On another subject, if anyone were to bring something, such as a set of ahadeeth, which claim that the Ulil-Amr taught or behaved differently to the Prophet then either the Quran is wrong for equating the Prophet and Ulil-Amr in many ways, or this set of ahadeeth is. The answer is obvious. And vice versa. It does not matter how "authentic" a set of ahadeeth may be according to the science of rijaal or a set of scholars; if it contradicts the Quran, it is false. For example, if the Ulil-Amr say you cannot wipe on leather socks, and a set of ahadeeth say that various people said you can, then the latter is false because it has disagreed with the Ulil-Amr.
Allahumma salle alah Muhammedin wa Aale Muhammed.
"All the praises and thanks be to Allah, Who has guided us to this, never could we have found guidance, were it not that Allah had guided us!" | Quran, 007:043.
This note is mostly based on a lecture delivered by Ammar Nakshawani
Brothers have you all had the pleasure of listening to brother Ammar Nakhshwani and brother Hasanayn Rajabally on youtube. I would request you to hear him and benefit from the same and also grace me with your views and comments.
N.B: They have discussed at length various topics.
With warmest regards brothers,
Towards unity among all of mankind,
Arif ali Vakil
"And the pleasure of Allah (swt) is the greatest bliss."
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Dear brother Arif
May peace be with you.
With respect, I find that once again you have not provided any evidence for the concept of 12 infallible divinely appointed imams for mankind’s guidance from the Quran.
You are once again using the exhausted arguments of 'salat' which is a subsidiary to defend the lack of mention of an 'usul' (fundamental doctrine). It also appears you are not respecting the contentions against this failed logic that are repeatedly being made.
How you have then taken 'those in authority' and equated it to the concept of imamate is difficult to comprehend.
In fact, your own history is against you. If 'those in authority' are to be obeyed, then quite obviously, God did not intend Imam Ali to be the first caliph to be obeyed as he was preceded by 3 other caliphs. What happened to following the Quran’s guidance at this point?
Are you seriously going to suggest that God’s divinely appointed imam was thwarted?
There is no correlation whatsoever with the notion of following those in authority with the 12 infallible divinely appointed imams that Shi'a alleges.
Dear brother, for one second, do you not see that the Shi'a theology is built upon an extremely precarious position?
Please open the Quran randomly and note how many times the fundamentals of beliefs are mentioned, the Oneness of God, the Last Day, the angels et al. Where is the mention of the 12 divinely appointed infallible imams in the Quran?
How long will you continue to peddle this desperate theology when it has been made clear in this discussion that you have no support from the Quran? Do you see the Quran as such a facile piece of document? I sincerely trust that this is not the case.
Will one honestly stand in front of their Lord and say that they followed their forefathers whilst there was no explicit proof of their fundamental concepts in the Quran that He inspired in His Prophet?
This indeed is no small matter. Our 'akhirat' can depend on the evidence of our beliefs.
Dear brother, with respect, as an intelligent individual, can you not see how desperate your arguments are so that you can somehow prove a theology which has no support from the Quran?
With respect as always,
Joseph.
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Peace to all:
I think this debate is caught in a whirlpool---an inevitable consequence of any debate between and a Shi'a brother/sister and someone else. Whenever there is a conflict between a well-ingrained BORROWED logic and an independent thought pattern, the process will fall flat on its face.
No offense but the whole Shi’a theology reminds me of trying to fit a square peg into a round hole; it won't work- it never has.
Robert Michaels, in his treatise on democracies, has said that not only the political system, but ALL systems will degrade into authoritarianism, a natural consequence of what he calls "Iron Law of Oligarchy". This is true of theology as well, that delegates the Divine power to some presumed ""Imamate".
The verse 4:59 proves beyond doubt that the oou al-amr---whoever they may be---are NOT fallible. If they were, there would not be any dispute between them and the ruled because Allah says "...If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger...". So the ultimate authority is still "Allah and the Messenger". Allah comes first but His Messenger did not bring the Message but from Him alone, so, at the end of the day, we are being asked to obey the Message—because, after the passing away of the Blessed Messenger, Allah generally talks to us through His Message.
In sum, the believers are told to base their obedience to the Oolu al-amr (whoever they are) who, in turn, should make sure that their decisions and verdicts stand on the firm footing of Allah's Message.
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A correction: Please read "NOT infallible" in the sentence "The verse 4:59 proves beyond doubt that the oou al-amr---whoever they may be---are NOT fallible" in my earlier post on this thread. Thanks.
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Salamu alikum
I just happened to come across this discussion and was giving it a little bit of thought so i decided to give my comment on it. But before I start I would like to say something to people who are really honest and willing to know the truth and not just thinking there way is always best and right. So to begin I would like to say:
To find the truth, complete absolute truth in the life and universe is very hard and maybe impossible for humans. The absolute truth is only for Allah(swt) to know. But we should all try and pray that Allah(swt) grants us wisdom and knowledge and the right path.
So for the truth it requires hardship, struggle, searching, manipulations, sometimes sadness, sometimes deception, sometimes being convinced and assured. Sometimes leaving past beliefs that were once wrong. Pondering and desire, Happiness and success. however even after all that the absolute truth belong to Allah and only Allah(swt).
As humans we have to give and take and share and respect one another. And try to come to solid facts and think with reason and intellect.
We should not take any mans books and saying as truth with out criticism or questioning and study. Even the holy Quran tells us to study the book of Allah, for thats how one can be convinced its the book of Allah(swt). we should look for contradictions and discrepancies, which we can never find in the Quran.
I was pondering about the ayah that brother Arif stated from the Quran which he is saying that it states the infallibility of the imam Ali or any Ulil amr.
[4:59] O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger (Rasul) and those in authority (Ulil-Amr) from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.
If i was to study this ayah and extract the points being made, I come to an understanding of the following:
1. To those who believe-----> muslims, mu'mins, believers
2. Obey Allah----> the answer is clear That obey Allah(swt)
3. Obey the messenger (Rasul) NOT prophet Muhammad(pbuh)------> pay attention its stating to OBEY THE RASUL NOT PROPHET(NABI)--->If you search in the quran the nabi had made mistakes and was not infallible. But the messenger of Allah is what brings the ayat and the quran and IS INFALLIBLE(mahsuum) of the message being revealed which is the Quran.
4.And those in authority from among you(Ulil-Amr).--------->lets suppose this is Imam Ali, and it can be argued that it was Abu Bakr or Omar or Uthman before him. But lets talk about the Imam Ali as being the one in authority
5.then the ayah states "if you quarrel about anything"-------> what is it that we may quarrel about and with who? Is it possible we can dispute or quarrel with Allah(swt) THE ANSWER IS NO------>is it possible to dispute with the messenger Rasul(which is Infallible about preaching the Quran)---------> THE ANSWER IS NO
SO WHO IS ALLAH ASSUMING WE MIGHT QUARREL WITH OR DISPUTE WITH--------> THE ANSWER IS THE "ONE IN AUTHORITY AMONG YOU" WHICH IN OUR TIME CAN BE ANY IMAN OR LEADER. Or in the past Iman Ali, Or Abu Bakr, etc.
So there is a few points we can make of here.
A. That Ulil-Amr (those in authority among you) are NOT INFALLIBLE, BECAUSE ITS ASSUMED THERE CAN BE DISPUTES WITH THE LEADERS
B. That even the prophet Muhammad(pbuh) had some mistakes and maybe he was to refer it also back to the Quran which he himself as a messenger revealed it.
C. No one after Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) can claim to be a prophet or a messenger of Allah because he was the seal of the prophets and to my best understanding a messenger of Allah(swt) is automatically a prophet.
D. No human or Ulil Amr can control and say whatever he wants.
6. refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.----> AND YOU SHOULD REFER THE DISPUTES BACK TO THE QURAN IF YOU BELIEVE IN ALLAH AND THE LAST DAY; THIS IS BETTER AND VERY GOOD IN THE END
And once again remember this is all to those "WHO BELIEVE"
ITS MENTIONED TWICE
Once in the beginning ---> "OH YOU WHO BELIEVE"
And the ending----> "IF YOU BELIEVE IN ALLAH AND THE LAST DAY"
ALLAH KNOWS BEST
SALAM