QM Forum
The Quran => General Discussions => Topic started by: 8pider on August 23, 2013, 04:55:57 PM
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As salaam alaikum, having read through the article on Ishmael and Isaac, I would like to share my opinion.
Qur'an 11:71 "And his Wife was standing, and she smiled. Then We gave her good tidings of Isaac and after Isaac, Jacob."
Please note that after Isaac, there was Jacob. Also in the Bible God promises Abraham descendants from Isaac.
Genesis 17:19 God says “Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.”
Would it be logical for God to promise Abraham a covenant with the seed of Isaac (as in the Bible) or to state that Jacob will come after Isaac (as in the Qur'an) and then later ask Abraham to kill Isaac before Isaac has any seed? No, I don't think so. Ishmael on the other hand had no mention of a progeny after him therefore he would be a suitable candidate for sacrifice.
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Salaam 8spider,
I'm not sure whether the Qur'an asked Abraham to sacrifice his son, other than Abraham (SA) had a dream / vision and wasn't quite sure and hence why he asked his son's advice (37-102). Why would he ask his son if he knew it was an INSTRUCTION from Allah (swt) and where does the Quran say the dream was from Allah?
Also ...the logic you have stated, in my personal opinion is no different from asking if God had a plan for Adam's progeny anyway, why did he have to place a tree in the way, so that they could sin first? Would it make any sense to wait for them to sin first and eat from the tree if the plan was to test them on earth in a specific manner anyway? I'm not sure if a timeless Allah can be expected to do things in a time-dependent way that we humans look at the world. Just my two cents . Saba ;D :)
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I'm not sure whether the Qur'an asked Abraham to sacrifice his son, other than Abraham (SA) had a dream / vision and wasn't quite sure
This wasn't merely a dream/vision but a commandment from God as we can see in the sons reply.... "O my father, do as you are commanded...."
Why would he ask his son if he knew it was an INSTRUCTION from Allah (swt) We know that the Quran, among many things, has come also to correct the errors found in the previous scriptures. While in the Bible he does not consult with his son, he instead lies that God would provide a lamb when his intention was to sacrifice him. The Qur'an corrects these errors and also shows us that both father and son were submissive.
...and where does the Quran say the dream was from Allah? In verse 37:104-105 "We called to him, "O Abraham, You have fulfilled the vision." Indeed, We thus reward the doers of good" and also in 2:124 “And (remember) when his (Abraham’s) Lord tried Abraham with (various) commandments, to which he proved true...”
Also ...the logic you have stated, in my personal opinion is no different from asking if God had a plan for Adam's progeny anyway, why did he have to place a tree in the way, so that they could sin first? I do not think that is anywhere near the same thing. Lets try again....God tells Abraham that he will have a son called Isaac, and after, Isaac would have a son called Jacob. Now this is not just a promise but a statement from God of what is going to happen. Abraham and any believer would know that this would happen no matter what...for Gods word is true. Now if Abraham believed this and later God tells him to kill Isaac....Abraham would be like "but wait, You said Isaac was going to father Jacob...how can that be if I kill him?" Now this would indeed be untrustworthy and deceitful of God astagfurllah. This not being an attribute of God, Abraham would never have worshiped Him.
For the case of Adam and the tree, God never lied to them. He stated ..."do not approach this tree, lest you be among the wrongdoers." (Unlike in the Bible by the way.)
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I am pleased with myself actually. I have been going through this website for a couple of weeks now, and i was in agreement with almost everything....until this. I was beginning to wonder how one person could be so right and the many of us in error. I must say brother Joseph and all those involved have done a very wonderful job. It would be even nicer if the online or media presence was alot more than this....like youtube videos, debates and discussions with other Muslims etc. There are many scholars online doing a good job, but none with this approach to understanding Islam. Our ummah is in dire need of going back to the Quran.
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Salaam 8pider, For me your interpretation raises a lot of problems. More than it fixes imho.
This wasn't merely a dream/vision but a commandment from God as we can see in the sons reply.... "O my father, do as you are commanded...."
So the Quran does not say this, but you interpret this from the response given by the child. Why would Allah command the death an innocent soul and that too in a dream? Killing an innocent soul is a major sin in Islam. Would Allah ask someone to commit murder in His name against the very principle of humanity? Is an innocent murder of a child ever commanded by Allah? Is the innocent murder of anyone ever commanded by Allah apart from Satan? Satan often has been noted to instil desires into people so they kill their children. Where does the Quran say "We commanded Abraham!"? Are you not imposing a Biblical interpretation on the Qur'an?
Now your basis is the child's response .... "O my father, do as you are commanded...." But you are just assuming that the child knew who the dream was from? Maybe the child mistook the vision from Allah and submitted to it. You still haven't answered properly why Abraham (SA) would ask a child's opinion if he knew it was in instruction.
105 "We called to him, "O Abraham, You have fulfilled the vision." Indeed, We thus reward the doers of good" and also in 2:124 “And (remember) when his (Abraham’s) Lord tried Abraham with (various) commandments, to which he proved true...”
How can a vision be fulfilled if the child wasn't sacrificed? Please answer this question. Partial completion is not fulfilment.
I do not think that is anywhere near the same thing. Lets try again....God tells Abraham that he will have a son called Isaac, and after, Isaac would have a son called Jacob. Now this is not just a promise but a statement from God of what is going to happen.
Sorry but I disagree. My example is very relevant. The principle is the same. Allah had a plan regarding Adam's progeny. They were to be on earth. Even the angels asked why create someone that would cause such corruption. This is BEFORE Adam and his wife had sinned. So why put a tree in the way to get them to sin before Allah could accomplish the plan on Earth? I don't see this as a inappropriate analogy.
For the case of Adam and the tree, God never lied to them. He stated ..."do not approach this tree, lest you be among the wrongdoers." (Unlike in the Bible by the way.)
I am not taking my interpretations from the Bible. but I do think you are for example saying Abraham (SA) was commanded and then looking for the response of a child who may have mistakingly thought it was from Allah to support your Biblical interpretation .....I am just relying on the Qur'an's words. It makes no sense that if Abraham (SA) had been commanded to do something, why would Allah then stop it from being completed. Unless of course that it was never from Allah, but they thought it was Allah and submitted to it. Then Allah stopped them and they were rewarded for attempting to fulfil something they mistakingly thought was from Him. Saba.
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The point I was making was that it was Ishmael that was sacrificed and not Isaac as the article on here claimed. You have neither supported nor rejected that argument.
However, regarding your discussion.... you think that “.....Unless of course that it was never from Allah, but they thought it was Allah and submitted to it. Then Allah stopped them and they were rewarded for attempting to fulfil something they mistakingly thought was from Him.” I find no support for this logic anywhere in the Quran. Allah does not reward us for obeying Satan, even though who do it mistakenly. We are punished for that....and this is consistent throughout the Quran. If Abraham had been mistaken, this would have been clearly stated in the Qur’an. We would also have seen him apologetic and repentant as was the case with Adam.
You ask “How can a vision be fulfilled if the child wasn't sacrificed?” When Abraham consulted with his son, he said “O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: Now see what is thy view!" My understanding is that in the dream, Abraham visualised himself placing his son face down on the altar preparing for the sacrifice. The dream concludes at this point. Abraham understands what he needs to do, gets his sons approval and they both submit.
Qur’an 103:105 And when they had both submitted and he put him down upon his forehead, We called to him, "O Abraham, You have fulfilled the vision." Indeed, We thus reward the doers of good.
To make it clear, the dream concludes at the point God stops Abraham....hence fulfilling the vision. Also please note the “...We thus reward the doers of good.” What Abraham did was good not mistaken submission as you may claim.
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I still do not feel you are answering the fundamental questions.
A - Why would Allah ask for the murder of an innocent child? Is this something Allah would do and that too from an obscure dream? Does Allah sanction murder or human sacrifice?
B - How was the vision completed if Abraham (SA) did not complete the sacrifice but was stopped?
Your explanation about where the dream stopped is not in the Qur'ran. You have simply made that up and it is your interpretation at best. Please lets stick to the Qur'anic facts. All the Qur'an says is that he saw him sacrificing full stop. Not the details.
C - Where does the Qur'an say that Allah was responsible for the dream? Please see examples of verses where Allah tells you when he has sent a dream. For example:
008.043 When Allah showed them unto thee (O Muhammad) in thy dream as few in number, and if He had shown them to thee as many>>>
This is not the case in Abraham's (SA) case.
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You ask How was the vision completed if Abraham (SA) did not complete the sacrifice but was stopped? The vision was completed because God says so in 37:105 "You have fulfilled the vision." So God says the vision has been completed and you say it has only been partially completed....this is because you are erroneously assuming that Abraham completed the vision by actually killing his son.When God says "you have fulfilled the vision", it means that everything Abraham saw in his dream has come to pass.
Why would Allah ask for the murder of an innocent child? Is this something Allah would do and that too from an obscure dream? Does Allah sanction murder or human sacrifice? You said before that a "timeless Allah can not be expected to do things in a time-dependent way that we humans look at the world." This was a test for Abraham, God knew the results before the test....if Abraham failed, the boy would be alive, if Abraham passed the test, the boy would still be alive. So we can safely say the vision was never a request to kill or sacrifice the son but a test of Abraham's willingness to do so. Abraham was an old man who had longed for a child for many years. You can only imagine how much he would have loved his son. Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son indeed shows us how much faith he had in God. Asking for someones most treasured possession is indeed the ultimate test.
Where does the Qur'an say that Allah was responsible for the dream? In the verse quoted earlier. It seems clear to me and am sure many others will agree. And it is also clear in the context of the verses and the entire Qur'an as stated earlier. It might not be written exactly as you want it but its there nonetheless.
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This is because you are erroneously assuming that Abraham completed the vision by actually killing his son.
I could say that you are erroneously assuming that Abraham (SA) had not even begun sacrificing his son when the Qur'an clearly says that the action of 'sacrificing' i.e adhbaḥuka - sacrificing was already being done. Two people walking to carry out a sacrifice is not 'sacrificing'. The process has to start imho. Also you have provided no proof from the Qur'an that the sacrifice didn't even take place. It is all your own view.
I asked you "Why would Allah ask for the murder of an innocent child? Is this something Allah would do and that too from an obscure dream? Does Allah sanction murder or human sacrifice?"
Your response was not convincing at all I'm afraid. This is a very serious question and the best you have come up with is that Allah does things in a different way. This is not convincing at all. Sorry but it isn't.
I asked "Where does the Qur'an say that Allah was responsible for the dream?" You said: In the verse quoted earlier. It seems clear to me and am sure many others will agree. And it is also clear in the context of the verses and the entire Qur'an as stated earlier. It might not be written exactly as you want it but its there nonetheless.
I don't mean to sound rude but I find this a very desperate response IMHO. There is no mention in the verses. I gave you a straight example from the Qur'an where Allah (swt) tells you when he sends a dream. You say it is isn't written the way I want but we have clear examples of verses in the Qur'an that tell you how to expect a response when Allah (swt) sends a dream. It seems you are just ignoring this to prove your views.
008.043 When Allah showed them unto thee (O Muhammad) in thy dream as few in number, and if He had shown them to thee as many>>>
With your comment that others will agree with you, sorry... but please let others make their own minds up. Please don't speak for them. I know of many that would disagree with you......
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Salaam Saba. God tells us the vision is complete, you say it is not. If you cannot believe Gods word, how can you believe mine or anyone else for that matter? I think its best we leave it at that. Thanks for the discussion though...hopefully the original point (Isaac or Ishmael) is not lost in all of this. ;)
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Salaam 8pider,
Allah tells us that the vision is complete. If you interpret it the way you do then you are implying the vision is incomplete, not me...... You are implying that Allah (swt) send the dream which the Qur'an says was one where Abraham (SA) was sacrificing his son. But then Allah stopped it, but yet says the vision was completed? The only way to reconcile this is if Allah did not send the dream in the first place. Please let us be clear about who is making what claim directly or indirectly...... If you cannot believe Allah's words and are ready to introduce your own additional material to support your point, then how will you believe me or anyone else? I think too that we should leave it at that. Thanks also for the discussion. I hope you will see that there are some problems in your understanding, imho big ones! as well where you have not answered questions asked about your interpretation. Thank you again. Saba :D 8)
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I am pleased with myself actually. I have been going through this website for a couple of weeks now, and i was in agreement with almost everything....until this. I was beginning to wonder how one person could be so right and the many of us in error. I must say brother Joseph and all those involved have done a very wonderful job. It would be even nicer if the online or media presence was alot more than this....like youtube videos, debates and discussions with other Muslims etc. There are many scholars online doing a good job, but none with this approach to understanding Islam. Our ummah is in dire need of going back to the Quran.
As-salamu alaykum Dear 8pider,
JazakAllah Khair for your feedback, kind words and measured, insightful thoughts on various threads on this forum. It is really appreciated :)
As I have humbly shared on my website and paraphrased elsewhere on different platforms, it is a complex web of acquiring information and I believe that God takes us past what I call are 'watering places' if He intends to guide and 'water' those that truly seek His way. It is often a case of traversing these stepping stones with an open mind / heart and indeed moving on when the time is right.
My work (my humble effort) is merely a small piece in this immense web. Please take anything from it that is good and with mutual respect move on from anything that you do not find convincing. That is indeed your prerogative. I am a humble, fallible human being, simply striving in search of a path that is closest to the truth. In essence, I would assume that my intentions are no different from your well meaning ones.
I hope your stay here on this forum is a prolonged and pleasant one.
With respect always,
Your brother in faith,
Joseph.
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Salamum Alikum everyone
I found this to be a very good discussion. And I would have to say both of you seem like you are honestly trying to figure out the facts and truth and not just trying to prove your own views by ignoring certain aspects. Sometimes the results takes time and deep searching. I really found this to be interesting. Thanks all of you for sharing your views for others to think about.
I read the article about "Ishmael or Isaac" by brother Joseph Islam. I don't know if he mentioned that the whole scenario about Abraham and the sacrifice of his son was a dream or not. He just mentioned who was the one being sacrificed. And I found that very convincing.
And a comment to 8pider, I see your point when you take in the bible into effect with this verse you mentioned.
Genesis 17:19 God says “Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.”.
I thought that was smart thinking. But I think taking the Quran alone is a safer way to get the right answer and you might then see the article with a different view.
Now as for if the sacrifice of Abraham's son was a dream or it actually happened?
037.102-109
"And when he attained to working with him, he said: O my son! surely I have seen in a dream that I should sacrifice you; consider then what you see. He said: O my father! do what you are commanded; if God pleases, you will find me of the patient ones. So when they both submitted and he put him down upon his forehead, We called out to him "O Abraham! You have already fulfilled the vision. Surely thus do We reward the good. Surely! that verily was a clear test. And We ransomed him with a Feat sacrifice. And We left (this blessing) for him among generations (to come) in later times. Peace be on Abraham"
It seems like Abraham(pbuh) is relating his dream to his son and wants his opinion or views. Then he tells his father do what your commanded. Now I think Saba is suggesting that how can we tell if this command was from Allah(swt).
They both submitted. But after we read that it says "we called out to him" we as in Allah(swt) And he told him that you have fulfilled the vision. The vision was fulfilled because they both submitted. And of course Allah(swt) knows that if he let things keep going he would of actually carried out the sacrifice. He can see the future but maybe he intervened somehow at that point to replace the son with a feat sacrifice. And it was a clear test. And the son was ransomed with a feat sacrifice. And we notice after this Allah gave him the good news of Isaac a prophet of the righteous (saliheena). Which seems after the struggle and hardship that the son went through Allah granted him prophethood which the article explains in details.
Now I think if this all was a dream then the son would must of had the same dream since he was also tested.
Allah knows best (Allahu Ahlam)
Peace
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And a comment to 8pider, I see your point when you take in the bible into effect with this verse you mentioned.
Genesis 17:19 God says “Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.”.
I thought that was smart thinking. But I think taking the Quran alone is a safer way to get the right answer and you might then see the article with a different view.
Thanks for sharing your view Hamzeh.....I agree with you that taking the Quran alone is safer. My basis was on the Quran verse 11:71 but not from the Bible. The Bible is only quoted to show the similarity. The verse in the Quran is 11:71 "And his Wife was standing, and she smiled. Then We gave her good tidings of Isaac and after Isaac, Jacob." God states to Abraham that he will have a son called Isaac, and Isaac will have a son called Jacob. How is it possible then that Isaac could be the sacrificial son (as the article on here states) when he hasn't yet had Jacob?
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Brother Joseph in the article also says
Furthermore, if the contrary position is to be accepted (i.e. the sacrificial son was Prophet Ishmael (pbuh)), it becomes difficult to reconcile why a name would be necessary in 37.112 when it is absent in 37.101, if both verses are capturing the birth of new children
I find the name is necessary because its referring to two different children. Brother Joseph implies that if the verses are capturing the birth of a child, then both verses should have a name. However we see two other verses referring to births, one with a name the other without:
37:101 "So We gave him good tidings of a forbearing boy." This is referring to a birth.....no name is given.
11:71 "And his Wife was standing, and she smiled. Then We gave her good tidings of Isaac and after Isaac, Jacob." This is also referring to the birth of a child...but a name is given.
Also is it likely that the two verses quoted above are referring to the birth of the same child?? Two completely different situations and different times....also considering the wife is surprised by the news.
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Dear 8pider (/all),
As-salam alaykum and thank you all for your comments.
As many of you will know, the debate as to the identity of the sacrificial son is an ancient one which pervades early Muslim literature and scholarship. The opinion is sharply divided. As modern thinker Hamza Yusuf readily admits quite correctly:
"...and there is a difference of opinion about who that child was. The majority of the later scholars say it was Ishmael, many of the early scholars said it was Ishaaq. It should not be a point of contention for the believers; it's not the point of the story. Both are valid opinions..." [1]
Arguably unknown to many Muslims, classical scholars and historian have long wrangled over this question which even permeates the Ahadith corpus. Critics of Islam who often seem better informed than Muslims not conversant with their own literature are often not shy to present this as evidence to support their own theological perspectives [2]
So this is not a matter that I humbly feel we should 'resolve', but to feel content to state our position with citation of the best evidence we possibly can.
The Bible remains emphatic that the son in question was 'Isaac'. (Genesis 22:1-2).
Furthermore, the Quran often states that it is also a 'confirmation' (musaddiq) of the previous scriptures, certainly implying the overlap of narratives and the theological understanding prevalent during the Prophetic ministry amongst the People of the Book.
'tasdiq' – “but it is a confirmation of what is before it” (10:37); 'musaddiq' – “that I have sent down, confirming that which is with you” (2:41), et al.
Therefore, one may ask the valid question whether the Quran was confirming the prevalent views of the Jewish and Christian communities with regards the identity of the sacrificial son (Isaac) or was it challenging it (Ishmael)?
After all, the People of the Book during the Prophetic ministry were also the primary recipient of the Quran's call and they had to be convinced of its origins including the disbelievers amongst them. The Quran clearly states that they were not going to depart from their ways, until clear evidence came to them (98:6).
Undoubtedly, such an explicit challenge that ‘Isaac’ was not the child involved in the incident contrary to the Torah would have attracted strong criticism from the People of the Book, one arguably of ignorance of their scriptures.
However, this is not to say that the Quran does not challenge mainstay beliefs of those that follow their own scriptures. But the Quran does seem to be rather predisposed to challenge fundamental theological issues of variance such as those that question God's essence (as with the Christians) or those that are ‘read into’ scriptures as part of wider theology.
After all, the Quran did not have the intention to deal with each and every narrative of the Bible hence the term 'wa-yafu an kathiran' (forgive, pardon, pass over, relinquish or remit a whole or part or indeed pardon much) in verse 5:15.
Our concern here is of course, the best possible position / interpretation from the Quran.
In the story regarding Prophet Abraham and his son, if we are to take verses 37:101 -113 and understand them to capture three personalities, i.e. Prophets Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac, why does the Quran only mention the blessing on two personalities at the end of the narrative (i.e. Prophets Abraham and Isaac - 37:113)?
Why is this reference 'exclusive' only to Prophets Abraham and Isaac and not 'cumulative' with a view to include Prophet Ishmael, who after all, was ready to be sacrificed and is subject the continuing theme of what the Quran seems to be narrating?
037.113
"We blessed him and Isaac..."
Verse 37:109 even recognises specific salutations on Prophet Abraham for his trial, however there is no mention whatsoever of Prophet Ishmael.
I respectfully note your appeal to verse 11:71 and your comment:
"The verse in the Quran is 11:71 "And his Wife was standing, and she smiled. Then We gave her good tidings of Isaac and after Isaac, Jacob." God states to Abraham that he will have a son called Isaac, and Isaac will have a son called Jacob. How is it possible then that Isaac could be the sacrificial son (as the article on here states) when he hasn't yet had Jacob?"
This is a good question. However, your contention also supports the perspective that the vision therefore could not have been from God but one which was possibly misunderstood as being from God. After all, why would God rescind on a promise He had made earlier and one which guaranteed his son's life at least till the point he had offspring?
One would be inclined to ask, is this why Prophet Abraham asked the son’s opinion due to some element of doubt that had arisen in his mind as to the origin of the dream? Or was his seeking of an opinion narrated to show the difference between the Biblical perspective which pictures the son as largely unawares of the what was about to transpire till the last moments. What is its purpose?
Only God knows best what questions must have arisen in Prophet Abraham’s mind after he saw such a vision which subsequently became the subject of his immense trial.
Furthermore to your comment with regards names appealing to verses 37:101 and 11:71 you share:
"However we see two other verses referring to births, one with a name the other without"
However, both verses are not following a theme within the same 'narrative scope' of the same Surah of the Quran. Verses 37:101-37:112 arguably are.
You also kindly share:
"Also is it likely that the two verses quoted above are referring to the birth of the same child?? Two completely different situations and different times....also considering the wife is surprised by the news"
The Quran often speaks about the same incident in different ways capturing the narrative from different perspectives. This is well attested from many narratives. Often it provides additional details to a particular narrative or presents the incident with a different underlying message.
Therefore, it is quite possible that this is a reference to the same child and in one of the narratives the 'surprised' demeanour is an elucidatory comment. This with respect and in my humble view, cannot be ruled out and from a Quran's perspective at least, cannot form the basis of an academic or theological contention.
In the end and indeed, only God knows best.
Warm regards,
Joseph.
REFERENCES:
[1] Hamza Yusuf: "There is no calamity if there is certainty" [online] http://youtu.be/NIzjKfCA4KY?t=5m10s: Video Decription notes: "This talk was delivered for SBIA on Eid ul Adha at the Santa Clara County Fairgrounds on Wednesday, January 11th 2006. "Nothing in this world is calamity if you have certainty." - Shaykh Hamza Yusuf." [accessed] 30th August 2013
[2] Abraham and the Child of Sacrifice - Isaac or Ishmael? [online] http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/sacrifice.htm [accessed] 30th August 2013
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As salaam alaikum brother Joseph, thank you for your response.
However, your contention also supports the perspective that the vision therefore could not have been from God but one which was possibly misunderstood as being from God. After all, why would God rescind on a promise He had made earlier and one which guaranteed his son's life at least till the point he had offspring?
One would be inclined to ask, is this why Prophet Abraham asked the son’s opinion due to some element of doubt that had arisen in his mind as to the origin of the dream? Or was his seeking of an opinion narrated to show the difference between the Biblical perspective which pictures the son as largely unawares of the what was about to transpire till the last moments. What is its purpose?
I am glad that you agree with me that the contention I put forward raises the above issues. But its important to note that these issues only arise if one believes the sacrificial son was Isaac. I find this conflict a big problem because it imparts directly on the “character/attributes” of Allah swt. However, there would be no conflict if the son was Ishmael.
In the story regarding Prophet Abraham and his son, if we are to take verses 37:101 -113 and understand them to capture three personalities, i.e. Prophets Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac, why does the Quran only mention the blessing on two personalities at the end of the narrative (i.e. Prophets Abraham and Isaac - 37:113)?
In your article you asked “ why a name would be necessary in 37.112 when it is absent in 37.101, if both verses are capturing the birth of new children. ” Since I agree with your point that 37.112 is not capturing a birth but an announcement of Prophet hood, the question to you then is “ why a name would be necessary in 37.112 when it is absent in 37.101, if entire narrative is talking about the same child.” I find a name is introduced halfway the narrative so we can switch focus from one child to another. If it were the same child the entire narrative, then a name would arguably not be necessary in 37.112. This also shows that all three personalities are rewarded. Abraham and Ishmael in 37.110 “Indeed, We thus reward the doers of good.” and Isaac in 113. I think this cannot be ruled out from a Quranic perspective.
Like you quoted, it doesnt matter to a Muslim if the son was Isaac or Ishmael as both opinions are valid. But in following the best meaning, I find choosing Isaac imparts directly on Gods "character/attributes" (major sin?) while Ishmael doesn't.
Thank you again for your response and I appreciate this opportunity to share our views.
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Wa alaikum assalam 8pider,
Please see my responses to your comments in blue italics.
I find this conflict a big problem because it imparts directly on the “character/attributes” of Allah swt.
Dear brother / sister (8pider), I am sure you can appreciate that the biggest problem someone may find is why God would 'command' the sacrifice of a human in His name when he has made the killing of a human unlawful bar two exceptional circumstances (5:32) and none of these include human sacrifice in God's name. This is a generic law (applicable to all humans) prescribed in the backdrop of the first murder ever committed. This being the murder of one son of Adam by another (5:27-31). This command was set in stone before Abraham was even born.
These kind of offerings (human sacrifices to Gods) are made in false religions, not a monotheistic religion of truth. Why would a Holy Divine entity set a command to outlaw killing of humans and then go against it and ask for a human sacrifice and that too in an obscure dream!?
We can attempt to harmonise this contention in many ways to support our underlying convictions, but this remains a very serious contention. I trust that you will appreciate this point.
If it were the same child the entire narrative, then a name would arguably not be necessary in 37.112. This also shows that all three personalities are rewarded. Abraham and Ishmael in 37.110 “Indeed, We thus reward the doers of good.” and Isaac in 113. I think this cannot be ruled out from a Quranic perspective.
The reward mentioned in verse 37:110 is tied to a specific personality. This is clear from the preceding verses (37:108-109) that this is a reference to Prophet Abraham.
037.108-109
"And We left for him (alayhi) among the later generations (the salutation)."Peace be on Abraham!""
Therefore, the contention still remains as to why name one child and not another, especially when the Biblical record clearly elucidates the name of the sacrificial son? Why only refer to him as a 'son'? If this was a point where the Quran was to clarify a matter for posterity and show the Biblical perspective was incorrect, why was an explicit reference not stated to settle the issue? These points must be taken seriously in my humble view if a particular viewpoint is to be peddled with conviction.
I find choosing Isaac imparts directly on Gods "character/attributes" (major sin?) while Ishmael doesn't.
With respect, I am not sure I have completely grasped your contention as to how this is the case. Would you care to elucidate this for me dear 8pider?
Thanks for your comments. Truly appreciated.
Regards,
Joseph.