Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.

Messages - Nura

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 16
General Discussions / Re: Isnad of the Qur'an
« on: September 22, 2017, 05:05:31 PM »
Salam HealerofWorlds,

The Quran is not really transmitted like the way Hadith is transmitted. I believe your question is answered in the links below:

I am quoting an excerpt from an article, the link of which I have provided below,

Regrettably, many Muslims assert that the Quran has also reached us in the same manner as the Ahadith and Sunna. As discussed, the Ahadith corpus is primarily an oral propagation reliant mainly on 'ahad' transmitters and later committed to text. The Sunna remains a practical propagation of certain practices which possess the consensus of the community.
The Quran on the other hand, has reached us both by a rigorous oral and written form along with the complete consensus of the Muslim communities.
"...Thus, if the Qur'an had been transmitted only orally for the first century, sizeable variations between texts such as in the hadith and pre-Islamic poetry would be found, and if it had been transmitted only in writing, sizeable variations such as those in different transmissions of the original document of the Constitution of Medina would be found.  But neither is the case with the Qur'an. There must have been a parallel written transmission limiting variation in the oral transmission to the graphic form, side by side with a parallel oral transmission preserving the written transmission from corruption. The oral transmission of the Qur'an was essentially static, rather than organic. There was a single text, and nothing, not even allegedly abrogated material, could be taken out, nor anything be put in..."
Of greater importance however, the Quran does not seek support because it has community consensus. Rather, it requires one to believe in its veracity once it has presented you with its clear arguments. No scripture can be accepted purely on the basis that the same community profess its Divine origins and have themselves sought to protect it.
Rather, an outsider can only accept its veracity based on the strengths of its claims.
So indeed, there exists a similarity with the Sunna in that the Quran has the consensus of Islamic communities. However, the practices of the communities have no authority in by themselves. Rather, they can only achieve 'religious sanction' from the 'lens' of the Quran's scrutiny.
Furthermore, if belief in the Quran's veracity is admitted, it is clear that the Quran does not support any type of 'Sunna' that does not find sanction from the Quran. For example, both 'Salah' (prayers) and 'Zakah' (alms giving) have scriptural support as to its establishment.
Therefore, Sunna practices of the early communities with regards prayer and alm's giving would be supported by the Quran. On the contrary, Sunna practices for example, involving kissing of the Black Stone, or whispering the 'Iqama' (similar recitation to the Adhan) in the ears of a new born child finds no support in the Quran and therefore should not be regarded as being part of the 'religion' instituted by the Quran.

The Quran or any other book for that matter will have a chain of transmission, but that chain does not say anything about the divine applications or religious authority of the transmitted material. The chain of transmission can only help us determine how accurately the information has been transmitted and also the degrees of separation from the original reporter/orater. Hadith is not a source not because of having an isnad, it is not a source because the primary source says that it (Quran) is the only source. After being convinced by the Quran's arguments of its divinity, the matter is really as simple as saying ' because the Quran says so'. This can be an answer to a lot of religious questions because the Quran a lot of times does not elaborate about the reason behind a prohibition, e.g. pork meat, is prohibited, but nowhere in the Quran does God give a reason why.

Sometimes, 'because God/Quran says so' is the only answer to a question.

General Discussions / Re: Isnad of the Qur'an
« on: September 22, 2017, 10:15:45 AM »
Salam HealerofWorlds,

I am not sure about the premise of your argument relating to isnad but this is my understanding, please do clarify in future posts if I am misunderstanding your position. Isnad or chain of narration is not really a determining factor of divinity of religious sources. The primary religious source, the Quran, does not appeal to Isnad as a factor of consideration when it comes to determining its divinity. The Quran asks us to deeply ponder the arguments presented in its verses to decide whether its source is a divine one or not. The Quran does not ask to believe in it because of its chain of narration, isnad. The Quran mentions the role of narration and memorization of the zikr as a way of preservation of the zikr along with its written form. The Quran is divinely protected by means of memorization  and written documents, both working in tandem, preserving the message as promised by God. God assures us that He will preserve the Zikr. The role of narration, isnad, is one of preservation and transmission, ensuring that there is minimal scribal/human error when it comes to the transmission of the Quran, not of proving Quran's divinity.  It does not ask to even believe in its divinity because of Prophet Muhammad's pious character. It only informs us that Muhammad was pious and he can be trusted. To drive this point home, the Quran even says that had Muhammad tampered with what God wanted to reveal, He would have had severed Muhammad's jugular vein. So, we are not even asked to believe based on the prophets words or activities. It is helpful to keep in mind that most revelations are  ahad (only witnessed by one person) transmissions initially, be it the slabs of the Torah given to Moses or the verses of the Quran revealed to Prophet Muhammad. The isnad is not really an issue nor is authenticity/inauthenticity of hadiths be it based on isnad (chain of narration) or matn ( wording of the narration). It does not matter whether a hadith has an authentic isnad or not when the Quran does not give it authority. The Quran does not give religious authority to any other source other than itself when it comes to religious guidance of believers.

Hadith is simply not a source of Islam because God did not mention that it was in the primary source, Quran. In fact, there are verses in the Quran where the prophet is reprimanded for some personal decisions indicating that he was also human and capable of making wrong judgments in his personal sphere of life. We are asked to consider the divinity of the Quran only when we are convinced by the arguments presented in it,  not because it was revealed in Arabic, in Arabia to an Arab Prophet or for any other worldly reasons.

The issue is one of authority, not of authenticity or any other factor.

General Discussions / Re: About music...kindly clear it please...
« on: December 22, 2016, 12:05:29 AM »
Salam Sister Anjum

Music or poetry is not banned per se, it depends on the content, basically it is a very subjective choice, generally, a song or a poetry is a reflection of the writer's thoughts and beliefs, freedom of expression gives everyone the right to write down their thoughts in these art forms. Dissipation of these songs and poems is regulated by a country's judicial system. Generally, books and songs are banned by governments, many countries ban movies and songs that they deem wrongful on any level.
Now, when it comes to personal consumption of such literary or creative content, you have to exercise your own choice, if some music or poem is going to give rise to sinful thoughts or action, then you should personally curtail your  involvement in consumption of such songs or poems. It depends honestly, on how you are effected by these poems or songs. If, you do not get effected then, let it be.

General Discussions / Re: 33:40
« on: November 23, 2016, 01:28:39 PM »
Hi Wanderer

For some reason I can't access it, the blog is taking too much time to respond, but I will try again later. I hope you will continue to write thoughtful, eloquent and well researched articles. :)

General Discussions / Re: 33:40
« on: November 23, 2016, 01:13:25 PM »
Salam Wanderer

I too noticed the link but for some reason can't access it, the session always takes way too much time to connect to your blog! I am sure it contains wonderfully written articles. It is always a pleasure to read your posts. You are definitely very talented brother :)

God Bless

Salam Brother Joseph

Thank you so much for taking the time out of your busy schedule to answer my questions. I was quite upset because I was not being able to reconcile the verses in my head for some reason, thank you very much. I overlooked the part where all the Mosaic laws have to be followed by Jews who were not convinced of the veracity of the Quran. Makes you wonder, how overlooking one part of the puzzle can make you question everything. :)

Islamic Duties / Re: Circumcision
« on: November 19, 2016, 11:07:00 PM »
Salam brother Duster,

I am not confusing the matter, after I shared my contentions, some brothers have also seen the problem that arises with taking the approach that the Quran does not confirm all the laws and rites.
Can you give me a verse where the Quran says to follow that which it does not confirm. Brother Joseph has clearly said that the Quran mentions everything that it confirms. I agree.

The Bible confirms stoning as atonement for adultery, the Quran asigns lashes and is silent on stoning. Are you of the opinion Children of Israel should stone?

Documented differences in shariah:
1) sabbath for jews confirmed in Quran
2) different Qiblah
3) different procedure to prepare meat for consumption confirmed. 7th century Jewish meat preparation laws are confirmed and given credence.
4)eye for an eye was prescribed for  Children of Israel. This is in the Bible and the Quran mentions this.

These are just a few examples of different laws confirmed in the Quran, mentioned in Quran.

I do not see why you are becoming offended, I did not overlook your or anyone else's contribution, even after all the interactions with me brother, if you conclude such a thing about me and my approach then I really do not have much to say anymore. I am choosing to wait for a response from brother Joseph, I am not badgering him. I am not the only one who is waiting for a response from him on this topic.

Islamic Duties / Re: Circumcision
« on: November 19, 2016, 10:38:13 PM »
Salam Brother Duster

The Quranic silence part I dealt with when I said in one of my previous posts , that they were people of yore and we won't be asked about them. Brother I do not think that I am being able to make you understand my contention regarding this whole issue.

Brother, the differences in shariah is confirmed, I am not understanding why you are concluding that if the Quran is going to be followed there will be no difference in shariah! The Quran does confirm differences like differences in the way they prepare meat, keeping sabbath, different qiblah all these and more are mentioned and confirmed, so the conclusion that if Quran is followed by them, then there will be no difference in shariah is unfounded! Even if they follow the things confirmed in the Quran, they will still have a different shariah. Does having a different shariah mean everything has to be different? This is an unfounded assumption that every law or rite has to be different. Even for instance if only the qiblah is different, the shariah becomes different. We were never prescribed an eye for an eye, they were and the Quran confirms this. There are many differences talked about in the Quran. Plus, 'argument from silence' is a logical fallacy. Maybe the Quran is silent because it has already said that it is pardoning and overlooking information it did not confirm.  If, the Quran is not confirming, I am not saying that those things are untrue, I am saying those unconfirmed things can be both true and untrue, we simply do not know. So, in such a situation why not follow things that have been confirmed in the Quran? We can choose not to comment about the unconfirmed narratives, but when it comes to performing rites and following laws, we cannot take the risk of commiting something in the name of religion that may not be ordained. Always err on the side of caution.

The Question is what are the Children of Israel suppossed to do during these times of silence?  If the answer is these are pardoned and passed over, then inaction is what is the logical conclusion. They should not do anything during these times or at least not follow the Bible's instruction at these times simply because the Quran's silence cannot be used to discern between truth or falsehood. When the Quran is silent they should not do anything, which fundamentally equals to, they should follow what the Quran confirms and nothing else. Let's for a moment consider the consequenses of following and believing the Bible when the Quran is silent, great prophets become rule breakers, shirk committers and committers of incest, astagfirullah!

If only the parts confirmed by the Quran is followed by people of the book, then their shariah and our shariah does not become the same! There are documented differences in the Quran. Maybe all these little differences mentioned in the Quran, are the differences in shariah God is talking about when he talks about different shariahs and open ways. Let's wait for Brother Joseph's input :)

Islamic Duties / Re: Circumcision
« on: November 19, 2016, 09:20:58 PM »
Salam Brother Good logic

I was always of the opinion Bible contains both God's word and men's words. I never denied the existence of man-made changes in the Bible.

Salam Brother Duster

Here God is saying if He causes to be forgotten then He replaces with a better one. Yes it is possible to forget laws and rites if God wants that to happen. Everything positive or negative happens because God allows it to happen. We do not always understand the wisdom behind such things instantly, but sometimes we just have to have faith in God's plan.

The word shariah is not in the verse, but ayat is there, ayat mean signs. But the Quran does contain examples where God has changed some laws for the Children of Israel. God does change His laws whenever He wishes to, He changed food laws for people of the book. The point is God does confirm some of their previous laws and practices and also confirms differences in shariah in the Quran. Previous laws, rites not mentioned in the Quran are not confirmed. God is overlooking and pardoning those laws and practices not mentioned. If we take the stance that not everything is confirmed in the Quran, then a lot of disturbing narratives in the Bible would have to be also given credence. The stories, laws rites etc not confirmed are pardoned and overlooked. This conclusion is reached after I thought things over and from my reading of other posts where Brother Joseph made the point that the portions the Quran confirms from the Bible are clearly mentioned. Regarding other parts not confirmed or mentioned in Quran, we see the Quran clearly saying that it pardons and overlooks much from the previous books and regarding laws and rites, the Quran does say that it is lifting some of their burdens.

Islamic Duties / Re: Circumcision
« on: November 19, 2016, 07:31:13 PM »
Salam Brother Duster

It says that Allah does not replace a law but with a better one, as in,  when such a thing happens God replaces the law with a more pertaining one, addressing the new situation in a better way.

What We abrogate (of) a sign or [We] cause it to be forgotten, We bring better than it or similar (to) it. Do not you know that Allah over every thing (is) All-Powerful?

Islamic Duties / Re: Circumcision
« on: November 19, 2016, 05:27:18 PM »
Salam Brother Hamzeh and Wanderer

Upon much contemplation, I am now of the opinion that the Quran mentions the things God wants to confirm from the previous books and when God wants, God also confirms the differences in Shariah in the Quran. It is not that the Quran does not mention differences. But, in many posts it has been said that when the Quran says something about an incident that is differently described in the previous books, the Quran's narratives have to be taken as the truth. The Quran guards and confirms the Bible not the other way around.

I do not think that only stories and personal anecdotes about other Prophets are confirmed by the Quran, previous laws are also confirmed and mentioned,  if God wants to, e.g God mentions the eye for an eye law He gave to them, and mentions that the one who forgives does what is best. So, I do not agree that the confirmation part only applies to narratives in the Bible but not to laws and rites. I think laws are also confirmed when it was deemed fit.

Brothers we have to have a consistent approach in my opinion, if we have one rule for personal narratives and other for laws then a lot of confusion will arise. The Quran does not confirm or correct a lot of disturbing stories told about other prophets. The story of Lot and his daughters is particularly disturbing, but we know that regarding the life stories of people of yore, the general wisdom of the Quran is that, they were people of old times and we will not be asked about them. But, since the Quran does not confirm anything, there is a high chance that this story is untrue. Regarding previous books the Quran also says that it is pardoning and overlooking much. This might suggest that the stories and laws not confirmed by God in Quran are not needed to be followed, discontinuation can be seen as implied . If we do not understand it like this, then there is confusion. The only way to avoid confusion is that God confirms the similarities and differences in the shariahs in the Quran. The stories and laws not confirmed are pardoned and overlooked. Otherwise we will have to accept a lot of disturbing things in the Bible or we can just say these are overlooked ( this I believe is Quranic).

Brothers, God does mention that He replaces laws with better ones, there is no point in mentioning this if this never happens or happened. I believe God asks us to go ask People of the book or them to refer to their own books in cases where God already confirms what they should be looking for in previous books e.g God asks Muhammad to ask people of the book when he was having doubts that he was a messenger, because they could tell him about other humans who were messengers. And God asks people of the book to go back to their books when they were particularly lying or misled about laws and beliefs like where exactly  is the concept of trinity mentioned in their books if they are truthful also that monasticism was never prescribed by God, Jesus is not His son etc. To prove that these believes were not based on scripture, they would have to be referred back to their scripture! How else are we to prove that those things were not prescribed by God? They are more likely to accept these as false if they are not mentioned in their books rather than the Quran not confirming them. We have to keep in mind that people of the book were in doubt regarding the divinity of the Quran, they were not questioning the divinity of their books. It makes sense to ask them to refer back to their books in cases where their beliefs were unfounded.

Also when something is being pardoned or overlooked, it doesn't necessarily mean that the things being overlooked were not authorised by God, they may have been authorised or not, or may have been time bound. The  message for the Children of Israel was not for everyone, Jesus was very clear when he said that his ministry did not extend beyond the Children of Israel. Now, whether the whole message of the Bible was time bound, this I doubt. I do not believe that the entire Bible was time bound and Quran replaces it, but some laws in the Bible were definitely time bound just like our laws pertaining to slavery in the Quran.

We also have to keep in mind that the Quran confirms stories that are in apocryphal scriptures of the Bible, like the story of healing blindness and giving life to clay birds and speaking in his crib. Some biblical stories are only found in apocryphal books not in the canons. Truth does not care about human authorized canonisation.

I think that in conclusion I am of the opinion that Allah mentions and confirms the differences and the similarities in the shariah as well. The parts that are not mentioned are pardoned and overlooked. If we choose to give validity to laws or stories not confirmed, this will give rise to many confusions and complexities and a lot of things will not be reconciled. Let's wait for Brother Joseph's input :)

Islamic Duties / Re: Circumcision
« on: November 19, 2016, 10:30:18 AM »
Salam Wanderer and Hamzeh

My confusions started after I saw this response and also after I read in a post where Brother Joseph argued that the Quran mentions the parts of previous books that it confirms. Thus, the parts Quran is not mentioning the Quran is not confirming, ( not confirming part is my deduction, am I wrong?)  so what are today's sincere Children of Israel supposed to do during those times? I gave some examples of this situation in my previous post. The Quran does say that it confirms previous scriptures and also that it lifts some burdens. My question is similar to the one you asked in your last post.

I on the other hand did not interpret that verse as abrogation for the same scripture, i.e verses from Quran abrogate other verses of Quran. But was thinking it was talking about the changes in law that we witness in the Quran from the Bible, the Quran says God does not change a law until He replaces with a better one, lashing for adultery comes to mind instead of the biblical stoning. This is not to say that stoning was ever prescribed by God in the first place, since stoning is not being confirmed and then being changed to lashing for believers. This is just an example that came to my mind. I might be interpreting the verse all wrong hence I sought help.

I am not confused about the parts I argued about, I do still believe they are asked to go back to their scriptures and discern with the Quran but my question is, What are they supposed to do when the Quran is silent about their particular rites or practices or law? I was of the opinion they are free to follow them or discard them, the choice is theirs, but now I am thinking they maybe should not follow what is not confirmed in Quran. After all the differences are also pointed out in the Quran as I mentioned. Maybe these are the differences in shariah that God has approved e.g Sabbath, way of preparing food, different qibla etc. It is not necessary that if the Quran is followed, everything becomes similar to ours, there are recognised differences in the Quran. If, those differences are followed, they still will have a different shariah than ours. We are not doing sabbath, or preparing food in the way they are etc. I think that the differences in shariah are also confirmed in the Quran. But I wanted to ask Brother Joseph whether I am wrong or not in my new opinion.

Islamic Duties / Re: Circumcision
« on: November 19, 2016, 02:15:11 AM »
Salam Brother Joseph

After reading your response to this topic, some questions have popped up in my head and I cannot really reconcile them, hence I am seeking your help, other brothers and sisters are welcome to express their opinions as well.

Regarding the practice of circumcision, since the Quran makes no mention of this practice and in another thread you said that the Quran mentions the practices and rites that it confirms from previous books, will it be wrong to suggest that, if modern 'Children of Israel' decide not to partake in this practice, they will not be wrong? After all the Quran is not confirming this practice.

Brother, does the Quran confirm and mention all the practices that God wants 'Children of Israel' to continue practicing till end of time ? If that is so, then no mention of circimcision can mean that God wants this practice to be stopped?

I read in the Quran, I do not remember the verse number now, that God replaces his laws with better ones, would you please explain this to me. Does this include differences in laws between the previous books and Quran? For example: The punishment for fornication is 100 lashes in the Quran, but there is mention of stoning in the Bible, but the Quran does not confirm the practice of stoning, so should 'Children of Israel' now also give 100 lashes as punishment? If not, and they should stone, then the Quran does not mention and confirm all their laws, and they have to follow those laws also that are not confirmed by mentioning in Quran?

The Quran does mention differences in shariah like sabbath and different Qiblah. I understand this mention in Quran as confirmation of these differences in law, but for example, the Quran does not confirm the prayer timings for 'Children of Israel', so should they pray five times like us but facing a different qiblah? Their Qiblah is confirmed but timing is not in the Quran. Then for fasting, the month of Ramadan is confirmed, their practice details are not mentioned or confirmed in Quran, so can we say that, they also have to fast the month of Ramadan with us now, since fasting is confirmed, but the details of their practice is not mentioned hence not confirmed in the Quran.

Basically I am asking, are the ' Children of Israel' only to follow the practices that are confirmed and mentioned in the Quran? The Quran  confirms and mentions the differences from the Bible practices like sabbath, their way of preparing food, different qiblah etc. But should they follow the Quran for other things not confirmed and is different, like timing of salat, month of fasting, punishment for adultery etc. The things that are not confirmed by the Quran by mentioning them, what should Children of Israel do in such cases like fasting, praying and adultery?

Salam Brother Duster

Thank you for quoting relevant verses. I do agree with all the points you addressed.

Salam Sister Anjum

Congratulations! May God protect and bless your child and your family always.

It is not compulsory to preach Islam. If you are qualified to preach, then do so, but with gentle and good speech. In today's world sister,  preaching the true message of the Quran is very difficult, which is why a lot of people choose to do that anonymously. I would suggest you to consider anonymity for your own safety , if you want to preach on a platform in a large scale. If your friends and relatives come to you to know, then of-course help them learn. But preaching to people who do not have interest  to know, is something I find yielding negative results most of the time. You should welcome people who want to understand and know Islam sincerely. Just because someone is not a believer, doesn't mean that we have to preach Islam to that person the moment we become close friends or acquaintances. One of the best ways of calling someone to Islam and showing someone the truth and beauty of Islam is to show them by reflecting Islam's teachings in your character, your choices and your lifestyle. I would suggest to preach to those who want to know and learn, but be cautious and smart about it. There are people out there who may not agree with your message and choose to harm you and your family. Tread very carefully. Brother Joseph and so many others are doing it anonymously, I would suggest you take pointers from their approach.

Yes, absolutely. We are allowed to follow traditions as long as they do not conflict with the message of the Quran. You can follow them as long as they are not unquranic outright or in principle. You will not be sinning if you follow those traditions that do not contradict or do not misalign with the Quran's principles.

Is it illegal to use these phones for personal use? Could your employer reprimand you for this? What is your employer's policy. Follow your employer's policy, this is not a religious matter per se, but breaking your employer's trust or company policy is not something Islam condones. So follow whatever is your company's policy regarding this issue. What others are doing does not matter, it is your deeds for which you have to answer to God, and we cannot get away by saying others were doing it as well.

I hope this helps. God bless :)

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 16